Punching Progress: Objective Measures

[grasshopper 2.0]

How would you objectively measure punching progress, in the comfort of your home or school?

Punching could be measured on power, stamina, speed. What else? What other scientific ways can we measure punching?

The inquiry is purely for training punching, kicking, etc. NOT in the context of knock out power, angles, timing, etc. Just the snap shot of punching itself.

What r some of ur drills?
Thanks!

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are some strike measuring devices out there, but they are typically reaction time mesuring ones or "impact" measuring ones and the impact is based on "momentum based" striking ( even a push will register if it has enough penetration on it).

The only sure way to do it at home is with a very good camera, the frame by second in slo motion play back ( too much work) for speed.
Breaking stuff !
:D

Of course it can be argued that if you are hitting hard enough to KO people then you are hitting hard enough.

[k gledhill]

the punch ....it should be developed to also deflect....elbows in, not just fist to target.
drills

dan chi sao;
jum sao; use elbows inwards to deflect the partners tan strike [jum sao]...not dropping the wrist. Hold the elbow angle inwards and forwards before striking ...this two step stage will later become redundant. The jum sao punch will incorporate the inwards deflection energy as it strikes in one action. Becoming 1 part of the striking duo.
tan sao allow elbows to spread off the inwards starting point. first stage is to bring the elbow inwards to 'explode' off the line as the hand goes forwards... now you have one strike to deflect outside arm and the following [jum] inside....together they attack either side, neither leaves the centerline...

chi-sao;
start closer impct zones with one beat strikes in rotation, using partners opposite energy to developm each others strikes, add motion and entry with attack angles....

once you get to a certain stage you can start striking each other in the chi-sao, using chest pads to develop the snappy stopping shots at close quarters, with deflection built in, adding bag work etc...

wall bags should have elbow positions as the key action, not the fist alone hitting the bag ...

[grasshopper 2.0]

yea but how do you measure the progress of your punch development? how do you know all that work is actually doing what it's supposed to do...but in an OBJECTIVE, SCIENTIFIC manner? rather than "it just works" or "my partner's broken nose says so"...

what factors can we track? what can we measure?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

what factors can we track? what can we measure?

- How many different kinds of punches you can do
- How many consecutive full power punches you can do
- How many punches per second you can do
- How how far you can penetrate into a control target or how far you can hit a weighted control target
- How precisely you can target a punch
- How precisely you can target a combination of punches
- How quickly, precisely and powerfully you can punch a combination of targets

...

[k gledhill]

yea but how do you measure the progress of your punch development? how do you know all that work is actually doing what it's supposed to do...but in an OBJECTIVE, SCIENTIFIC manner? rather than "it just works" or "my partner's broken nose says so"...

what factors can we track? what can we measure?


The punch IS being developed as it should be, we can add inch punch aka punching without retracting the fist, to check for correct force delivery, structure etc...
You should be able to deliver a deflection strike that sends your partner back 6 ft at least in chi-sao seung ma toi ma drills using just inch 'testing' strikes...to check the development.
We also strike when the hand is free in deliberate openings during chi-sao .this requires padding on the chest when the punch force increases correctly, elbows inwards etc...takes a while before it starts to hurt....and stop me in my tracks. Good reality check for a punch in chi-sao...

can it hurt, stop you and deflect your strike in one beat, as it angles into counter attacks/attacks.

Moving a 180-220 lb man backwards 6-7 ft with a inch punch aka 'coup de poing sans recul ' delivered during seung ma toi ma drills is a good measure...to me.:D

add space and timing delivering that point of impact and we have a good punch.


if you concentrate on the force alone and have no angles or elbows etc...what good is all your force and speed if I can hit you back as you do it ? trading blows . That is one thing that differentiates a VT strike from any strike....all packaged into a simple punch.


I can show the student the progression from no balance, structure capable of delivering this stopping force, also thinking what to do, what side , oops forgot feet no balance etc...the measure is inwards , inside YOU not a impact meter attached to a heavy bag/wall bag...you can do those at the arcade games.

[sihing]

The punch IS being developed as it should be, we can add inch punch aka punching without retracting the fist, to check for correct force delivery, structure etc...
You should be able to deliver a deflection strike that sends your partner back 6 ft at least in chi-sao seung ma toi ma drills using just inch 'testing' strikes...to check the development.
We also strike when the hand is free in deliberate openings during chi-sao .this requires padding on the chest when the punch force increases correctly, elbows inwards etc...takes a while before it starts to hurt....and stop me in my tracks. Good reality check for a punch in chi-sao...

can it hurt, stop you and deflect your strike in one beat, as it angles into counter attacks/attacks.

Moving a 180-220 lb man backwards 6-7 ft with a inch punch aka 'coup de poing sans recul ' delivered during seung ma toi ma drills is a good measure...to me.:D

add space and timing delivering that point of impact and we have a good punch.


if you concentrate on the force alone and have no angles or elbows etc...what good is all your force and speed if I can hit you back as you do it ? trading blows . That is one thing that differentiates a VT strike from any strike....all packaged into a simple punch.


I can show the student the progression from no balance, structure capable of delivering this stopping force, also thinking what to do, what side , oops forgot feet no balance etc...the measure is inwards , inside YOU not a impact meter attached to a heavy bag/wall bag...you can do those at the arcade games.

Kevin hit the nail on the head here. You cannot not measure realistically someones punching progress with an outside meter reader or with some sort of scientific tool. They tried that with that series on Spike TV "Deadliest Warrior" which was crap IMO. Since WC, for me anyways, is a "training" system, within that system is a way to test if you are acheiving the skills it is teaching. Like Kev says, in seung ma/toi ma drills, if at one time you where not able to project your power to move your partner, but now you can, then you have gain the skill/physical attributes it it trying to teach you. Its right there, you've proved it. Now the next step is to take that skill set and learn to apply it for real, application mode which is totally up to the individual, and not something the system is going to teach you. If you want to deal with a good jab, face a good jab and do so over and over again. If you want to learn to KO people, then KO people when you spar, rather than measuring your punching power against a meter reader stationary object, lol.

James

[grasshopper 2.0]

Yea i understand what you're all saying but i'm saying to ignore that for a second - "a snap shot" if you will on the objective measures of punching. We all know there's more involved than speed or accuracy when it comes to really punching....

think of it this way...

let's say i'm a football player. I do weighted squats and track progress in terms of rep and weight. sure, i don't squat during football...but it's one piece of the puzzle.

i think it's too easy for us to just say "oh you can't do that". why not take a moment and examine this for a bit?

[goju]

How would you objectively measure punching progress, in the comfort of your home or school?

Punching could be measured on power, stamina, speed. What else? What other scientific ways can we measure punching?

The inquiry is purely for training punching, kicking, etc. NOT in the context of knock out power, angles, timing, etc. Just the snap shot of punching itself.

What r some of ur drills?
Thanks!

i punch something it goes "ow"
thats how i test my progress:D

[k gledhill]

Yea i understand what you're all saying but i'm saying to ignore that for a second - "a snap shot" if you will on the objective measures of punching. We all know there's more involved than speed or accuracy when it comes to really punching....

think of it this way...

let's say i'm a football player. I do weighted squats and track progress in terms of rep and weight. sure, i don't squat during football...but it's one piece of the puzzle.

i think it's too easy for us to just say "oh you can't do that". why not take a moment and examine this for a bit?

its tested in chi-sao ...pressure is added in the drills to see when your 'part of the puzzle' fails and at what level of pressure....

the VT punch is a vt punch due to its multitasking delivery, not because its omnipotent.

the measure of the 'punch' is tested by the recipient. I have students over 6ft 250lbs who had a hard time moving me 180lb after a good meal :D sure they can hit already, but I can also hit them as they do the vt strike. After a while they start to get the multitask actions onto one beat strikes and they hurt enough that I dont need to 'test' them ...I KNOW, my body feels it .

One can steal the space of the punch power too, so there are other ways to test the strike, reaction time...too soon or too late...timing of the punch is critical ergo the zillions of reps for the simple delivery angles and timing/elbows balanced stance etc...
The inch punch moment is this critical timing that we aim for with no contact except space and time as the opponent moves to us or us to them ....delivering the timing of the force capable of moving a 250lb student back 6 ft but now we have added forces of combined entry etc...only takes 1 or 2 to do the job ime.

We have to stay away from a to b straight line speed thinking....becasue you lose the elbow control idea from SLT.

[Wayfaring]

Yea i understand what you're all saying but i'm saying to ignore that for a second - "a snap shot" if you will on the objective measures of punching. We all know there's more involved than speed or accuracy when it comes to really punching....

You can train hitting a bag with an enclosed meter measuring punching power.

But the bag doesn't hit back.

Hence the lack of meaningful measurement. What punching power can you hit with when someone is swinging at you too?

[grasshopper 2.0]

Missing my point again. Ya I get it - its more meaningful to train against a live person. But what about options about measuring training progress on your own?

U punch air right? You don't "snt" an opponent. So its not like u need to punch a person everytime or something that hits back. Epecially in the context of training one particular issue.

Let's think outside the box - why stick to such typical "kung fu master" talk?

I feel I've repeated myself so many times already

[punchdrunk]

some people punch at candles to measure the effect of their punch, the further they can stop their punch away from the candle and still put out the flame the more penetration power they have? I think its B.S. but unfortunately there aren't any objective measures for punch progress that I have heard of. If you find any or invent any please share, sounds like a good pursuit.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Missing my point again. Ya I get it - its more meaningful to train against a live person. But what about options about measuring training progress on your own?

U punch air right? You don't "snt" an opponent. So its not like u need to punch a person everytime or something that hits back. Epecially in the context of training one particular issue.

Let's think outside the box - why stick to such typical "kung fu master" talk?

I feel I've repeated myself so many times already

I see your point of wanting to quantify your training, there have been a few suggestions on here to help measure you punching ability...I think where your frustration lies is that some people are arguing the validity of what you're doing.

Its like all the measurables in football, your bench press reps, your vertical leap, the 40 yard dash times...you can do well in all of these areas and not really be a good football player...or vise versa, maybe not do so well in the measurables and be a great player.

I think timing your strikes per min or 30 sec intervals would be good and also timing them with weights in them 2-4 lb. dumbells...will help develop some power or strength...punching power is so much determined by torque and body energy, like hips, hand,and shoulder rotation...by balance or the lack of balance (see Fedor)....not sure how you can really measure it unless you mimic that show 'Fight Science' on Disc Channel.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Don't get me wrong - i appreciate everyone's input. Absolutely - i'm sure many are questioning the validity as you said. I know I would..but i'm just thinking "outside THAT box", if you will, for just a moment ;)

i've found that answering this will not be easy.

[Wayfaring]

Measuring punching power can be done with equipment. You could detect the power of 1 punch for the "1 punch max". In more of a fighting conditioning type of test, you could measure the punching power output over a 3 minute or 5 minute round, and train to maximize that, adding up the power of each individual punch. You could measure the overall number and the average punch power number. It's not done currently though.