chi sao fuk sao position

[Steeeve]

well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,,,,,,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control ....with forward pressure....and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that...whats u thing :)

[couch]

well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,,,,,,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control ....with forward pressure....and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that...whats u thing :)

Simply: My Fuk Sau just protects my centreline. Wherever that may lay on my opponent's arm is where it lays given that my own elbow positioning is on the mark.

Complex: It usually ends up somewhere between the wrist and the middle of the forearm on the opponent's Tan Sau because when we roll, we don't roll with wrist-to-wrist energy but elbow-to-elbow energy. You have to be careful, however, to not put the Fuk Sau too far up the arm (say, in the middle, where you've suggested) because you've already let your opponent hit you then.

[AdrianK]

well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,,,,,,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control ....with forward pressure....and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that...whats u thing :)

Its another variable in an infinitely variable exercise. If you want to position your fuk at the elbow of the arm that is in tan sao, then you can develop it that way.

Don't forget about the wrist position, though... and don't stop thinking of new ways to work through the concepts of your WC :) Chi sao is a training exercise and as such, it can and should be expressed in every logical way.

So if you want to start from a stronger position, if you want to start from a weaker position, if you want to start from as neutral a position as possible, or any variance, it all works something.

[k gledhill]

well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,,,,,,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control ....with forward pressure....and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that...whats u thing :)

in dan chi sao the fook wrist is resting near the tan wrist, this is due to the increased distance doing the drill is focused on elbow positions not impact [too far away].

Once you pass the redundant stages of dan chi , you step closer doing chi-sao / lok sao ...etc[impact distance] and move past the wrist of each others outstretched arms ...starting to use the previous actions but in single striking beats , not 1-2 as you did in the dan chi-sao....now its strike with deflection built in....tan strike energy versus jum energy, trying to use each to develop the other, leading to stalemate positions....strike is met by a counterstrike, not a 'block' ...
then add entry from one side or the other , seung ma ....angle counter strike, toi ma ....randomly , producing natural attacking entry and angling fro left or right flanks....

add trapping, impact training when the hand is free....etc...all closer than dan chi sao, because you have to be able to be in impact/contact distance AS you are angling , striking etc...

Fok sao is a neutral 'energy' but centered elbow iow its hov ering around the centerline [elbow not wrist] ready to be jum [in] or tan [out] energy ...jut energy....pak energy....all from the neutral centered elbow/arm. ......We turn our stances only to face the direction we are attacking...

Doing strikes we use fok sao drills to recover back from extension...ie after we do a strike in dan chi across the partners lateral bong energy....we retract our arm as the partner momentarily leaves their bong up ....we bring the elbows back to central area...this instills a rcovery in the arm / elbow after extension and deflection...we use it to recover back to the centerline 'space' not to stick to the raised arms etc...allowing trapping from overturned positions....

It is done low level in SLT for the idea to not lift the elbows , everything is to keep our elbows low in training.

[punchdrunk]

Simply: My Fuk Sau just protects my centreline. Wherever that may lay on my opponent's arm is where it lays given that my own elbow positioning is on the mark.

Complex: It usually ends up somewhere between the wrist and the middle of the forearm on the opponent's Tan Sau because when we roll, we don't roll with wrist-to-wrist energy but elbow-to-elbow energy. You have to be careful, however, to not put the Fuk Sau too far up the arm (say, in the middle, where you've suggested) because you've already let your opponent hit you then.

perfect answer, centerline is the reference mark, where that lies on your partners bridge depends on his position in relation to yours. good and simple answer Couch, sound like you know your chi sao.

[Lee Chiang Po]

In a fight, it is wise to assume an oponent to be stronger than you are. That way no surprises in that area. A stronger arm is much easier to control from the wrist than from the upper forearm. Simple leverage. Besides, when you slide to the elbow his arm slides past and to your face. I think I would stick to the lower arm or wrist area.

[k gledhill]

chi-sao is a drill...not a pre-fighting position. we dont fight with 2 extended arms as the drill.....man/vu
the drills reenforce the striking abiloity of each arm. to do this they must develop the ability to strike and deflect using the forearm area, simultaneously. 2 actions combined in each strike.
we use tan strike and jum strike cycling in chi-sao....

fok is just a neutral arm....in a drill , you dont fok in a fight, you use the actions that fook develops in your elbow/arm....relaxed centerline coverage.
the forearms of fok are in the same forearm area of the tan...you should be able to both contact the partner with fist and use forearms to deflect as you hit....

step away from the drill and each arm can do this idea while attacking in a cycling rotation...we only turn to face the angle of the opponents positions using one lead and one rear hand ....so the attacking hands cant be stopped by lateral actions together if they where both extended out equally....;)

[AdrianK]

In a fight, it is wise to assume an oponent to be stronger than you are. That way no surprises in that area. A stronger arm is much easier to control from the wrist than from the upper forearm. Simple leverage. Besides, when you slide to the elbow his arm slides past and to your face. I think I would stick to the lower arm or wrist area.

If the opponent were simply an arm, that'd be the best way of going about it!

Unfortunately, control at the wrist of a person doesn't give you much control at all.

And then there's catching that wrist. Where it will go, nobody knows. I can throw a jab from an infinite number of angles, and retract my wrist to an infinite number of positions... but my elbow will always remain in the same general place, when I retract my punch.

Anyways, at the wrist you might have control over the arm, but at the elbow or upper forearm you have better control of the body.

[couch]

If the opponent were simply an arm, that'd be the best way of going about it!

Unfortunately, control at the wrist of a person doesn't give you much control at all.

And then there's catching that wrist. Where it will go, nobody knows. I can throw a jab from an infinite number of angles, and retract my wrist to an infinite number of positions... but my elbow will always remain in the same general place, when I retract my punch.

Anyways, at the wrist you might have control over the arm, but at the elbow or upper forearm you have better control of the body.

Exactly. Never chase the hands - chase the man. Chasing a wrist is a bad idea. ...but I get that other people do different things and I'm not worried about them. I'm just worried about me. :)

Best,
CTK

[Steeeve]

Adrian k and couch

thats whats i mean more control of the body at the middle forearm or near the elbow

the fuk in chi sao at the wrist let a a lot of chance to the partner to disengage because he could use his elbow joint if ur fuk is more near of the elbow u have better sensitivity
and control of the opponent body.......

[grasshopper 2.0]

Let's say i'm doing tan sao to your fuk sao and you gain position from wrist to the middle of the forearm (if i'm understanding you correctly)..

then i wouldn't do tan sao or i wouldn't do poon sao (assuming that's what we're doing). the situation has changed and i wouldn't force poon sao on us or force tan sao back.

just go with the flow as they say...


well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,,,,,,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control ....with forward pressure....and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that...whats u thing :)

[k gledhill]

aarghh ! force tan sao back if fok does ... what is tan sao ? a block in a chi-sao drill that goes forwards and back ? is fok sao a way to fight it :D....too funny.

your using tan 'energy' to displace your partners occupation of the centerline....he/she is using the opposite energy to develop occupation of their centerline with jum sao....[not wristing sao]...

so we get a drill with random reactions building to strike a strike with a strike ....all thats missing is the reality of a face off as we see in pre-fighting...tactics, movement, positioning, mind games....your not going to fight a fok with a tan ! :o

or try to stand in a basic stance rolling with arms equally extended....that to us is a drilling position, allowing left or right sides to attack and counter, allowing the partners to react to left or right entry....and counter attack accordingly either side, so when a real fight ensues we can react to either SIDE with little or no thought to attacking ...

If your chi-sao consists of fgacing but no seung ma -toi ma entry attacking and countering=movement and attack angles then your lost in the up and down rolling straight forwards and backwards world of 'wasting time wing chun' been there done that :D

[Steeeve]

well

i dont talk about fighting here ....just about the chi sau drills...

the positionning of the fuk sau ....to the tan or bong ....if my fuk is in the middle of ur forearm im more near of ur body and a little bit more extension of ur tan without loose the structure os the elbow 9one fist from my body.....

if u force ur tan in poon sao the fuk could became a strike or i jam ur tan ....the fuk at this position have a good wedge for attack or defense

sorry for my bad english:o

[Lee Chiang Po]

If the opponent were simply an arm, that'd be the best way of going about it!

Unfortunately, control at the wrist of a person doesn't give you much control at all.

And then there's catching that wrist. Where it will go, nobody knows. I can throw a jab from an infinite number of angles, and retract my wrist to an infinite number of positions... but my elbow will always remain in the same general place, when I retract my punch.

Anyways, at the wrist you might have control over the arm, but at the elbow or upper forearm you have better control of the body.


Well, now this is what I am talking about. It is not just an arm. Chi sao is a game really. In a serious fight you will not be crossing arms as such, but you will be trying like heck to keep from getting hit in the face. Or where ever. If you can control the elbow, that would be great. But in a rapid exchange of fists you are not likely to do that unless you just run in and smother the guy. Not always going to happen that way. If you try to extent to the elbow in such a rapid exchange of fists, you will be on the end of one sort of quickly.
The hard reality of it is chi sao is a drill between two WC guys. In the same reality, you are not likely to ever in this lifetime ever come up against another WC man on the street. Chi sao for him is something totally different. You can not do the same stuff in a real fight, not even close. It is like I have said before. You have to adapt your WC training to fight against other styles or systems. Or just against the common street fighter with no real trained fighting skills. This last one might be the most difficult to fight against sometimes.
My recommendation, leave the chi sao behind. It is going to get you into trouble. Do drills for real fighting, not hand rolling. It's only real purpose is to give you a feel for your blocks, parries, and deflections. It is designed that you can share with a partner. You both take turns getting to practice your tan, fuk, bong. You do it over and over and over and you get to where you can apply it with ease and accuracy. This compitition thing is just silly. Use it for what it is designed for and train properly. In the meantime, good luck chasing the elbows.

LCP

[k gledhill]

well

i dont talk about fighting here ....just about the chi sau drills...

the positionning of the fuk sau ....to the tan or bong ....if my fuk is in the middle of ur forearm im more near of ur body and a little bit more extension of ur tan without loose the structure os the elbow 9one fist from my body.....

if u force ur tan in poon sao the fuk could became a strike or i jam ur tan ....the fuk at this position have a good wedge for attack or defense

sorry for my bad english:o

fuk no wedge :D the elbows go in to avoid the wedge....the idea isnt to wedge yourself.

[mjw]

If your wrist is closer to the elbow wouldn't that leave your self wedged out when you roll up to bong/fook allowing for them to just extend their bong arm and take the centerline?

Doesn't this also at tan/fook leave your oponent in tan closer to you thus making it easier to hit you?? Not to mention how the tan drills as the fooks chisel so to speak thus creating a warped triangle if not causing yourself to get wedged out......

[Steeeve]

If I ask this question about the fuk position

couple years ago ....a guy from the Tam Lai lineage show me to do the chi sao thats way....me too i never do it that way but thats could have some good stuff thats way:)

by wedge i mean to be able to cut to gain the centerline ....intercept and attack in the same time ....

[Ali. R]

The main key as far as the Woo Fai Ching system dealing with chi sao, is the fook sao…

If one cannot master the understanding or ideal dealing with the fook sao, then he or she will always have trouble dealing with double line sensitivity, because in the start of your chi sao studies the fook sao is always misunderstood…

Why? Because the fook sao do nothing but ride, control or cling to structure, and the other side or arm cycles from tan to bong; in other words that side have something to do, in which helps keeps the mind pre-occupied while almost losing the ideal or mechanics dealing with the fook sao…

Just master of try to understand the mechanics of the fook sao through total softness and forward sensitivity, then I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for…

The more one can control his fook sao through good forward sensitivity and line control, the softer and stronger his overall chi sao structure will become…

There is really no special way to use the fook as long if one is riding, clinging and controlling; it’s really simple if one just try to keep their structure and stay sunken with the ideal of chum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmqeObFVhhE fook sao in action mark 257.

In most cases; when done correctly your opponent wouldn’t feel the manipulation of defensive and offensive line control…


Ali Rahim.

[YungChun]

Good topic...

Lots of confusion on this which there shouldn't be..

Tan and Fook share the line in chisao, to start.

They connect in such a way not to control the other but to control the line, the space..

Each controls part of the line, in a balanced way, to start.

The wrist is the correct contact point on each, to start, in the rolling.

Perfect ChiSao is perfect balance between the two..each sharing half of the line. If both remain perfect then there is only the rolling..

The structure is made with the whole body including the elbow, but the contact point is at the wrists..because this offers perfect balance, to start.

Folks talk about controlling the tan, arm, fook, bong.... But what you must seek to control is the line, to occupy it.. and finally align with it as you take it..

If and when you occupy the line and control IT with any tool you are *training* to fill that line or space with attack.. And that's the point, ChiSao is the finger, not the moon.

The tools, fook and tan are not dead tools, they are very much alive. They are filled with energy, subtle though it may be, or not. Like compressed springs they store energy, potential energy for release when the space or line opens, it fires almost by itself *the freed hand hits the line*...

If you move your fook way up then all else being equal you have given up your space.. If you give up your space, the line, then Bang... You should have just got blasted...

[k gledhill]

The confusion is deeper...stop asking about the fok sao in chi-sao...ask what am I developing ? why use a wrist in drills when I wont in fighting....why train to make contact with a tan sao using a vu-sao wristing deflection ?

the chi-sao is a stage by stage developmental path to free fighting with 2 free hands...nothing to do with the wrists :D

The main culprit is when students are taught SLT, The beginning slow section has no jum sao, just a wristing Vu sao back then fook forwards, then Vu-sao back....common mistake made because the teacher didnt get the whole IDEA :D

No Jum sao= inwards elbow/inwards forearm striking energy position for drilling later....
missing

iow..the tan goes out , turns to huen as the elbow contracts inwards to make an ENERGY = jum sao [you cant see this ENERGY / contraction , it has to be explained by someone who knows]. You contract the shoulder girdle to hold the elbow low and in while seeing only one finger in the hand...contraction held for 2 seconds , then the fingers come up and the elbow relaxes to make the VU-sao to come back ...repeat 3 times for significance/importance...

IOW many MISS the jum sao altogether assuming it is a wristing action of the vu fingers pointing up from SLT...wrong...not the vusao, but the missing jum-sao..MISSING,MISSING,MISSING...

You need the JUM & TAN to develop into partners of energy...
JUM =inwards elbow ~ TAN sao = elbow spreads off the line

so regardless of what flank you attack from you have 2 arms in rotation each covering the line from the given side....iow one strike will use outside energy /alignment while striking to stop entry to you..the following strike will take over with inwards energy to close down the same side...
the tut sao or shaving hands teaches seamless line control , so nothing can enter the centerline...

why 2 energies from the same arms ? why have a strike that can both keep an elbow on the line and spread it off the line while each hits forwards ON THE LINE with little or no thought to the changing energy...?

The forearms act as deflection surfaces from the acute angle the inwards elbows create.
they utilize explosive force 'ging' and recover back to the centerline in fast repetitive strikes capable of changing the energy in each arm , relative to the positions and angles you and yur opponent take...motion, fighting for positions....

Your VT idea tactically is to deliver more attacking actions than the opponent in any given time period...so hitting is good but how can you get an edge on the guy when he also has 2 arms hitting you ? angling and using the extended striking arm in a 2/dual action strike= economy of motion...either arm can use the inwards or outwards energy to maintain line integrity , while striking out...facing and angling ...the energy of the striking arms changing ...you cant see this energy...you have to have it explained in the dan chi-sao...chi-sao so you dont make the mistake of adopting a wristing, feeling, controlling, hand chasing, waste of time

If the arm is intercepted we use the contact strike drills from our training...the arms are used to contact so they dont lose their elbow angles ability to stay on target...simple.



If you do use the wrists your TO FAR AWAY FROM THE TARGET TO HIT IT :D
AND IMPOSSIBLE TO DEVELOP SIMULTANEOUS STRIKE DEFLECTIONS unless you always use 2 extended arms to fight the opponents 1...think about it, your training to use 2 hands constantly against one...? while standing in front of them so they can wail on you ? really :D

with inwards/outwards elbow/forearm controlled strikes you can control entry to your self by simply ..angling to face...either side , move to gain angles allowing the idea to function... with either lead arm...while striking fast and not stopping to over trap because you lack the basic striking development stages....missing from your curriculum
completely....

Instead you try to make the system function with a tan that is thrown out to the shoulder, the outside upper gate..etc...to block while the striking arm is just a fist or a palm or a finger jab....iow you NEED 2 hands ...always....because you lack a tactical idea you adopt the drill positions for the safety blanket of control you get that goes out the window asa you try free fighting :D




~
The common MISTAKE made by many students, is to use the wrists as force connections/feelers in a drill ...this leads you to become a seeker of arms to feel and control before hitting....before hitting...before hitting...

Striking with arms capable of utilizing deflection & strike in the same beat is the aim...
EACH arm trained through the drills to encompass line closure/protection, while striking out to the target before them...in rotation, angling for attack angles and moving to face a moving target....

Sadly the drill has been so watered down by teachers with little or no contact to the source...

the wrist is isolated from the strike drills and not used as a deflection simply because it takes you striking arm away from the target...it is ingraining the wrists movement and force out at the end of the arm ...creating a long lever that also crosses the strike/centerline, due to the nature of the wrists looking for the contact .

there are 2 stages of distance in chi-sao ...one is the introduction of strikes using opposite forces daan chi sao...you are out of striking range..developing elbow energy and alignment ...just like SLT positions..so you are using the form in isolated actions...jum versus tan energy..one is trying to displace the other while staying on line to the center...drilling a relationship only relative to YOU and your elbow on your line ...for use when advancing to later stages involving motion and angling...so you dont lose you aim and go off target by simply touching the guys energy in his arms......

energy can be misinterpreted to be chi/qi for lack of relativity to VT..iow the energy we are developing is SPECIFIC to our goals ...attacking etc...attack/defense simultaneously....tactical motion...

The Little Idea in SLT isnt how to develop your wrists feeling ....fok is NO ENERGY in the elbow iow neither jum or tan energy...you cant have energy constantly in the elbow so fok is the 'off switch' in the drill to make our arms go limp but still hold the elbow centered without having tan or jum energy flowing into it....or recovering a extended strike back to neutral energy fok sao...

fok = no elbow energy for drilling...its wrist positions is redundant...in chi-sao the fook is resting on the forearm of the partner becasu you are now in contact distances...trying to both strike and use elbow positions together...in one striking action...jum elbow in strikes keeping tan attempt to make your elbow go out so it caan displace as it strikes ...

one strike attacks another strike.... strike v strike...no I strike responded by a block then a strike...ingrained a 10000 times....

If in chi-sao one of you is doing a tan attack and the other reponds with a wrist block its wrong ...

you should be striking the attack with a counter strike....if not , where is the simultaneous action...
maybe its lost in structure gobeldygook...pointing tan to a shoulder while the wrist defelcts , to far to hit the guy tannin into you...over and over and over...so when are you going to develop hitting a guy stepping into you ? answer your not, your going to do all kinds of structure drills, fancy chi-sao stuff etc...

why because the idea has been made into various levels of $ making... stages/belts/grades/certificates : )

[YungChun]

If you do use the wrists your TO FAR AWAY FROM THE TARGET TO HIT IT :D
AND IMPOSSIBLE TO DEVELOP SIMULTANEOUS STRIKE DEFLECTIONS unless you always use 2 extended arms to fight the opponents 1...think about it, your training to use 2 hands constantly against one...? while standing in front of them so they can wail on you ? really :D


LukSao is properly done with the contact point at the wrists.. (not the elbows) LOL

As I said, this is but a beginning point and allows for a balanced starting position WRT the line for each partner--it is a starting point and no it doesn't normally mean your are already all the way inside.. Nor does it mean you control the line, you have to get there, you're training to take position, POSITION, occupy the line, use the timing to get there, the energy to keep you there and finally release it once there...

Who, what or where does the LukSao imply one must stand in the front door when applying a technique and having taken the line..? It doesn't.. We move the line, we move our body, that's all part of the problems to solve and skills that are cultivated, we don't start at the end, we start at a beginning.. The expression of techniques later is apart from the original question, and goes beyond LukSao and this question relates entirely to initial starting positions and LukSao..

The hands work together.. When one encounters an obstruction (in fighting or not), that obstruction must be removed to continue..and gee you may have to step closer, or even *follow them* yes--hard to believe... This may well involve using two hands against one and no, not normally standing in front of them..we flank.. Not that this has anything to do with the initial issue of LS either..

If your tool has position and theirs does not they get blasted by that *single* tool, rinse repeat (fansao).. The high pressure water hose, he moves his offline and I don't = he gets soaked..

The techniques in chisao are the techniques we all know for the most part, some simple, some less so, most with more than one expression, some with more than one hand at once--all require fansao..

How do you do/teach luksao with contact @ where?

[k gledhill]

developing elbows ...;) you keep developing those wrists :D

[punchdrunk]

it's not elbows or wrists. It's the centerline.

[stonecrusher69]

well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,,,,,,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control ....with forward pressure....and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that...whats u thing :)


It think it depends on the situation ( pressure from the other guys). I don't always use forward pressure with the fok sao. I use it more as a sweeping motion to open up the line whether it's at the wrist or closer to the elbow. each positions whether fok or other hand has advantage's and disadvantages.

[YungChun]

developing elbows ...;) you keep developing those wrists :D

I haven't seen anyone advocate "developing wrists"... which makes the above what is called a straw man argument (fallacy)...

Some folks are perpetuating the idea that because wrist to wrist *contact* is advised (in luk sao) that somehow this means those same folks also advocate some kind of "wrist development" or wrist emphasis in application.. This is completely false.

My guess is that some of the "elbow folks" don't advocate the use of luk sao which, if so would be completely outside the normal system of training ChiSao...

[YungChun]

it's not elbows or wrists. It's the centerline.

Well yes and no..

We must occupy the line with something.. Normally we might say structure.. Part of that structure involves wrist and elbows... Connect the two and you have a bridge.

The alignment of the wrist and elbow wrt the line in LukSao tells part of the story.

[k gledhill]

Its Colonel Mustard in the library with the kitchen knife !:D you guys are too funny...

its this ...wait no its that, no its the CENTERLINE :D:D

your developing a strike, punching ....chi-sao is redundant in fighting ....its a stage a process....looking for answers in the actual drill positions shows more than words can ;)

[YungChun]

Its Colonel Mustard in the library with the kitchen knife !:D you guys are too funny...

its this ...wait no its that, no its the CENTERLINE :D:D

your developing a strike, punching ....chi-sao is redundant in fighting ....its a stage a process....looking for answers in the actual drill positions shows more than words can ;)

Ignoring what is/isn't correct positioning is, re something that relies on positioning, says yet something else..

And while you're in the kitchen please make me a sandwich..

[k gledhill]

I thought I was hard to understand...:D whatever ...

the system involves a process, some times the stages are redundant ...like dan chi-sao being a 2 beat elbow/strike action, later becoming a single strike action with the now inbuilt 2nd action....economizing a strike to incorporate deflective angles from acute elbow angles , pre-delivery of strikes....

impact and alignment drills are further developed in 2 handed chi-sao ..for natural ability to fight either side equally ...striking with the same actions being developed....

in fighting we dont adopt the 2 extended arms as the drills...why ? easy to get trapped, we dont adopt the same square on stance because we now have a face off to use the drills by products...ability to respond to either side of the attacker, using our developed striking from the previous stages....

chi-sao is overplayed and the development lost to wrist force, fook sao energy bs, bong on the line hand dropping blah blah...block with downward wrist actions then hiting 2 beats..turning the stance to re-direct force :D or leaning back to avoid it :D:D...play a control game with hands because the arms never learned to be the second set of hands in each arm....achieved by simple angulations to incoming lines of force....

mines tuna fish thanks ! hah

[YungChun]

I thought I was hard to understand...:D whatever ...

the system involves a process, some times the stages are redundant ...like dan chi-sao being a 2 beat elbow/strike action, later becoming a single strike action with the now inbuilt 2nd action....economizing a strike to incorporate deflective angles from acute elbow angles , pre-delivery of strikes....

impact and alignment drills are further developed in 2 handed chi-sao ..for natural ability to fight either side equally ...striking with the same actions being developed....

in fighting we dont adopt the 2 extended arms as the drills...why ? easy to get trapped, we dont adopt the same square on stance because we now have a face off to use the drills by products...ability to respond to either side of the attacker, using our developed striking from the previous stages....

chi-sao is overplayed and the development lost to wrist force, fook sao energy bs, bong on the line hand dropping blah blah...block with downward wrist actions then hiting 2 beats..turning the stance to re-direct force :D or leaning back to avoid it :D:D...play a control game with hands because the arms never learned to be the second set of hands in each arm....achieved by simple angulations to incoming lines of force....

mines tuna fish thanks ! hah

I agree with most of what you normally say.... Like the above..

However, I want to be clear that wrist to wrist contact in LukSao does not contradict same.

Wrist as an initial *contact point* does not, nor should it, mean other things, like to "control" with the wrist..

BTW: Kevin, do you teach/use LukSao in your program?

[YungChun]

block with downward wrist actions then hiting 2 beats..


This may well be a fail safe..or useful (jut) depending on the conditions, we ain't perfect, and jut has it's uses.

However, the real action at work here should be and is that AS the wrist opens and the arm becomes level/aligned (jut-open to jum-forearm displaces) that the tool becomes a strike (da) and happens in a single beat/action...dependent on position and energy the very fabric of the training...

The forward pressure (spring energy) causes such alignment and the ability to strike/displace in one action that is a combination of what is seen esp by beginners as two separate actions..




mines tuna fish thanks ! hah


Nice! Can I have mine on a bagel? :D

[k gledhill]

jut is an action from dropping the elbow not dropping the wrists....AFTER an attempted strike is intercepted..
jut allows the arm to stay in alignment to the target even if contact is lost...no wandering as a wrist deflection would if missed....

strike first jut later...develop striking first dan chi-sai....jut comes in chi-sao later as drills not with wrists either :D

wrists take you off line to be attacking..it involves a defensive deflection not an attacking action

[YungChun]

jut is an action from dropping the elbow not dropping the wrists....AFTER an attempted strike is intercepted..

How does one drop an elbow? The elbow is essentially 'immovable'...as it occupies the line.



jut allows the arm to stay in alignment to the target even if contact is lost...no wandering as a wrist deflection would if missed....

Not dropping the wrist--opening the wrist--drops the forearm... Causing the bridge to displace the incoming---supported by the elbow...

Were talking from luksao here..or at least I am as this question was from the rolling..



wrists take you off line to be attacking..it involves a defensive deflection not an attacking action

The wrist OPENING causes bridge alignment, meaning it takes fook (high hand) *sharing* the line with a bent wrist with tan to become straight (flat/drop)....(jum) and *occupy/take* the line just AS the strike fires...


How does fook become a successful punch against tan?

It's not that complicated and it's the same dynamic that answers the question--when can the fook hand convert and strike? There is no lateral energy coming from the wrist..the wrist simply *OPENS*..distends.. This will/should also happen if their tan drops too low.. KK--(the attacking hand defends)

You seem to read what is written but infer what you want to..and then assign your own meaning to it..

Do you, or do you not teach/do/use LukSao in your program???

[k gledhill]

...drop the elbow because you just extended the arm to strike....creating a bridge...dropping the elbow/forearm 2-3" to control and jerk the arm down....if you use the wrist you can take yourself off-line ...lose strike ability for chasing the bridge with wrist force

tan is a pre-strike position for us...we use jum sao strikes to develop the equal and opposite energy for strike development....fok is the jut in rest mode during the drill...

in chi-sao drills, either tan strike [elbow spreads off the line] or jum strike [ elbow stays on the line] are used against each other facing each other square to start with so the energy and alignment of each VT fighters strikes has a source of counter force to develop against... 2 strikes are rolling in chi-sao the tan & Jum FOK IS THE JUM SAO IN REST MODE ...you cant have inwards elbow energy constantly :D sooo we have a neutral arm/elbow for reclaiming the elbow with no stimulus ....idling like a bus at the bus stop FOR DRILLS WE DO....

SO we have a tan on the inside of the fok,the tan is resting until it strikes, the elbow of the tan then leaving the line as the hand goes along the strike path....the fok senses the strike and brings the elbow inwards to hold the line from being entered AS IT STRIKE FORWARDS thus developing a striking actiong to counter a striking attack...Either jumor tan strike can initiate ...so each responds with a counter attack or starts by attacking randomly from either side ...left or right..preparing us for shifting and facing one or the other sides of the attacker when freefighting..never facing square in the center with 2 extended arms....but shifting and keeping a lead and a rear hand [ man ~vu] using angling and facing shifts subtly to strike the guy using the energies developed in the drills....

the partner hands jut da...pak da...gum..etc... are all available to us as well, but used as a way to recover the ability to simply strike with 2 free hands from blind sides...

once the arms get developed this way they occupy the centerline naturally as they strike and re-cycle to strike...not requiring the arms to open up on the line so one is doing a chasing block leaving one arm to tend the line ....

I used to do what you do...for a long time ...all wrong:D


imagine this...the lateral force of the arms <-> or <-> is combined with the forwards force ^ of each arm, making an arm have simultaneous 2 energies, economy of motion, intercepting fists.

the jum sao energy is the inwards force along the centerline..the forearm slides along the centerline keeping the inside of this imaginary line occupied ..until its in its final stages of hitting to extension....thats one energy of the arm controlled by contractions of the pecs and lats to hold the upper arm /elbow inwards....SLT... force going in for either arm left or right > or <

the tan energy is the outwards force < or > the forearm slides along the line the ELBOW leaving it to spread away [not the hand] so it will displace any arm outwards that is outside its trajectory..follow...this starting point of the tan is also controlled by the same pec/lats, only yhe energy of tha rm changes...no physical movement off the line as a block....the tan in chi-sao uses a vertical palm allowing us to hit but not damage...the vertical palm is making the elbow spread outwards ....the jum strike in chi-sao is fighting this energy with its inwards strike...
good partners with equal energy skills will stale mate a lot....bad elbows open elbows or wrist chasing will be easily hit to show mistakes, rather than random hitting to hit each other....

so if you combine the tan energy using the left arm it is making < ^ the right jum <^ each can attack an attacker from his left lead arm shutting entry to your centerline down as you simply attack him with little thought to your defense , becasue the strikes are doing it for you...angling

the the right tan is this energy ^> Left jum ^>

by facing using turning the body only to face the correct angles we can simply shift the energy of the arms instantly back and forth without them ever seeming to be doing anything but chain punching...

The system is devoted to this simple idea...

[YungChun]

...drop the elbow because you just extended the arm to strike....creating a bridge...dropping the elbow/forearm 2-3" to control and jerk the arm down....if you use the wrist you can take yourself off-line ...lose strike ability for chasing the bridge with wrist force


In order for fook to convert to jum or for it to convert to punch the wrist must open or distend, it's the only way a fook can change to a punch... The forearm drops or alignes with the center... (this also displaces and takes the line) Unless you plan on striking with a bent wrist, as in fook, the wrist must open, it's that simple and illustrates the folly of denying it..

So clearly there is some kind of disconnect going on here communication wise.. Most of what you just wrote I find unclear at best...and again you appear to infer your own meaning (what you use to do) onto what I and others write..

Why don't you answer the simple question I have asked three times?

Do you use/teach LukSao?

[k gledhill]

you seem to place all the emphasis on making a fist :D from fook hand ....YES YOU MAKE A FIST but in fighting you have a man sao fingers point to target ..no ? or do you fok sao in sparring then make fist ?

your trying to make the fook the idea...its just a simple neutral position..no energy in the wrist makes it floppy, it hangs down over the tan because there is no energy in the wrist...when you strike you make a fist as you bring the elbow in and strike in one smooth action....drilling.

do you know what lok sao is for ? is my question:D

[YungChun]

you seem to place all the emphasis on making a fist :D from fook hand ....

Right!!!

Because this bloody thread was about luksao and chisao, in fact specifically fook and tan....used in the rolling as a starting point..



do you know what lok sao is for ? is my question:D


Yes, do you know how to answer a simple question in English? Or are you hiding something? :D

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi
I know most people use a fuhk/fook with the fingers level to the floor like I did for years. Now I do it with the fingers pointing to the floor just like a canine does when it sits up with it's paws hanging down. Now what does that have to do with the character fuhk/control/subdue? ;)

[YungChun]

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi
I know most people use a fuhk/fook with the fingers level to the floor like I did for years. Now I do it with the fingers pointing to the floor just like a canine does when it sits up with it's paws hanging down. Now what does that have to do with the character fuhk/control/subdue? ;)

Hi Phil,

You mean the way fook is done in SLT? Was how you used to do it?

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGlFuIlBUA4

Moy changed fook in ChiSao to a position where the palm is in more contact with the forearm years later..

[k gledhill]

Right!!!

Because this bloody thread was about luksao and chisao, in fact specifically fook and tan....used in the rolling as a starting point..



Yes, do you know how to answer a simple question in English? Or are you hiding something? :D


Its hard to answer when you wont understand what I'm trying to explain....

[k gledhill]

well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,,,,,,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control ....with forward pressure....and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that...whats u thing :)



thats because mostly every WC guy is using wrist energy to wrist energy in an incorrectly applied drill....leading to hand chasing, over trapping etc...common.

VT is striking...

The distances of dan chi-sao drills are greater than chi-sao lok sao drills due to the impact using contact with the partner not being introduced yet....the dan chi-sao is about learning to use the alignment of your strikes to do multiple tasks , iow, strike and use the arm positions along the centerline to be a defensive position.

So the initial contact area will be wrists to wrists but that doesnt matter , what matters is that you dont use the wrists to deliver the energy of the deflections...you are far enough away that you wont hit each other if the guys bong is slow etc....impact comes from moving closer in the more advanced stages of training...

Dan chi-sao becomes redundant after doing it as a learning curve, iow you no longer adopt the further distances of wrist /wrist contact points...and no longer do 2 beat strikes ...thats an introductory level for alignment of wrists and elbows for striking with later in fighting...
the strikes go from 2 beats in dan chi to 1 beat with 2 actions per strike per arm...for fighting later.

The idea that your feeling with the wrists and rolling the energy is completely wrong, its an idea developed by those with little understanding of the process for fighting...


Jum sao comes from the resting fok sao...so fok sao is really just a neutral arm position for the WC drill...

You have a fok sao ( neutral elbow) resting on the tan ( outwards elbow strike )because the stimulus/signal to do jum sao (inwards elbow strike ) isnt being sent...

the signal is tan attempting to strike forwards , when the arm feels the signal the fok stops resting and disappears altogether because it is now a pre-strike position for inwards elbow training ....iow its no longer fok because you have ENERGY in the arm

regarding the fok position after doing dan chi and moving closer doing lok sao etc...:
If you are close enough to use both the elbow idea in development and strike/contact the partner with force ....iow if you are capable of using inward elbow as you strike then you will have your wrist [ not that it matters] in the forearm area , because the elbow doesnt move back and forth ...and you are now able to use an elbow and make contact with the partners chest to develop IMPACT & ELBOW positions simultaneously.

Many start the whole dan chi..lok sao etc.. with the idea that you feel and roll energy around , trying to turn it by adjusting the stance to deflect the energy..all wrong.
You start with the wrists and think its about feeling things at the wrists and countering with energy at your wrists and hey presto your wasting time for years :D the fighing system is lost in a quagmire of chi-sao games.

VT requires a person to coach you OUT OF USING THE WRISTS incorrectly...if you dont learn this you will easily be shown by someone with alignment skills...becasue the writs will leave the line in attempts to stop the incoming lines of strikes with ..WRIST ENERGY...:D

if you have the knowledge then your confidence levels increase exponentially due to the simple fact that you can see the genius of the system ...and it aint rolling around feeling a tan with your fook .
Its about fighting , brutal , quick and effective .
If you get lost in the sticky rolly world of chi-sao you end up with little confidence regardless of all the 'moves' you have ...your heart will be the guide, follow it.

[YungChun]

thats because mostly every WC guy is using wrist energy to wrist energy in an incorrectly applied drill....leading to hand chasing, over trapping etc...common.

VT is striking...

The distances of dan chi-sao drills are greater than chi-sao lok sao drills due to the impact using contact with the partner not being introduced yet....the dan chi-sao is about learning to use the alignment of your strikes to do multiple tasks , iow, strike and use the arm positions along the centerline to be a defensive position.

So the initial contact area will be wrists to wrists but that doesnt matter , what matters is that you dont use the wrists to deliver the energy of the deflections...you are far enough away that you wont hit each other if the guys bong is slow etc....impact comes from moving closer in the more advanced stages of training...

Dan chi-sao becomes redundant after doing it as a learning curve, iow you no longer adopt the further distances of wrist /wrist contact points...and no longer do 2 beat strikes ...thats an introductory level for alignment of wrists and elbows for striking with later in fighting...
the strikes go from 2 beats in dan chi to 1 beat with 2 actions per strike per arm...for fighting later.

The idea that your feeling with the wrists and rolling the energy is completely wrong, its an idea developed by those with little understanding of the process for fighting...


Jum sao comes from the resting fok sao...so fok sao is really just a neutral arm position for the WC drill...

You have a fok sao ( neutral elbow) resting on the tan ( outwards elbow strike )because the stimulus/signal to do jum sao (inwards elbow strike ) isnt being sent...

the signal is tan attempting to strike forwards , when the arm feels the signal the fok stops resting and disappears altogether because it is now a pre-strike position for inwards elbow training ....iow its no longer fok because you have ENERGY in the arm

regarding the fok position after doing dan chi and moving closer doing lok sao etc...:
If you are close enough to use both the elbow idea in development and strike/contact the partner with force ....iow if you are capable of using inward elbow as you strike then you will have your wrist [ not that it matters] in the forearm area , because the elbow doesnt move back and forth ...and you are now able to use an elbow and make contact with the partners chest to develop IMPACT & ELBOW positions simultaneously.

Many start the whole dan chi..lok sao etc.. with the idea that you feel and roll energy around , trying to turn it by adjusting the stance to deflect the energy..all wrong.
You start with the wrists and think its about feeling things at the wrists and countering with energy at your wrists and hey presto your wasting time for years :D the fighing system is lost in a quagmire of chi-sao games.

VT requires a person to coach you OUT OF USING THE WRISTS incorrectly...if you dont learn this you will easily be shown by someone with alignment skills...becasue the writs will leave the line in attempts to stop the incoming lines of strikes with ..WRIST ENERGY...:D

if you have the knowledge then your confidence levels increase exponentially due to the simple fact that you can see the genius of the system ...and it aint rolling around feeling a tan with your fook .
Its about fighting , brutal , quick and effective .
If you get lost in the sticky rolly world of chi-sao you end up with little confidence regardless of all the 'moves' you have ...your heart will be the guide, follow it.

Actually it's the reverse... Moving the fook and tan too close (if that's what you are suggesting) causes an imbalance, where one has already taken the line... What happens next is that the student will try to compensate for this imbalance by using lateral energy (what you call wrist energy) to regain the line... That is an error..

Now...

Go ahead and use this as an example. . *I* would say that the contact points here are correct. .. IF you do luksao that is....................................... LOL

What say you?

http://www.brooklynwt.com/files/images/brucechisau.jpg

http://dansmuaythaimma.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bruce-159.jpg

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil,

You mean the way fook is done in SLT? Was how you used to do it?

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGlFuIlBUA4

. . . . . .

Yes, like that. Look at around :50 here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-q548Og9p0

[YungChun]

Yes, like that. Look at around :50 here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-q548Og9p0


Yeah I see that now... Watched the clip..

Hate to be a party pooper but I would have to disagree re the comments there re the fook. I don't use that particular variation <we use an open palmed fook with the palm in good contact with their bridge> but I understand it, I also suspect this was used to strike with the wrist bone <going forward>. The horizontal <pulling the fingers close to the arm as in the form> position tightens the inside of the forearm and helps to move it into the line along with the elbow.. You mentioned there that tan can strike, well, only if the elbow and bridge is not in the center, if it is well then it occupies....

You also showed a 'fake' move where I think tan fakes a palm and then goes over.. This can only happen IMO, in the absence of forward pressure/energy.. If both use forward pressure and correct position then whoever moves offline will get hit, that simple. Start to fake and bang. Just as if you have two folks each pointing high pressure water hoses at each other's center.. Move off line and you get soaked..

Also like two springs, coiled and ready to strike whichever finds space, first fires, almost by itself.. If the other tool moves offline taking the opposing tool with it then you jao...

I see a lot of folks training ChiSao to do small disengagements <backwards, just a bit> then come back in.. IMO it's the absence of the emphasis on forward spring energy that is responsible for this tendency....

JMO

[Phil Redmond]

Yeah I see that now... Watched the clip..

Hate to be a party pooper but I would have to disagree re the comments there re the fook. I don't use that particular variation <we use an open palmed fook with the palm in good contact with their bridge> but I understand it, I also suspect this was used to strike with the wrist bone <going forward>. The horizontal <pulling the fingers close to the arm as in the form> position tightens the inside of the forearm and helps to move it into the line along with the elbow.. You mentioned there that tan can strike, well, only if the elbow and bridge is not in the center, if it is well then it occupies....

You also showed a 'fake' move where I think tan fakes a palm and then goes over.. This can only happen IMO, in the absence of forward pressure/energy.. If both use forward pressure and correct position then whoever moves offline will get hit, that simple. Start to fake and bang. Just as if you have two folks each pointing high pressure water hoses at each other's center.. Move off line and you get soaked..

Also like two springs, coiled and ready to strike whichever finds space, first fires, almost by itself.. If the other tool moves offline taking the opposing tool with it then you jao...

I see a lot of folks training ChiSao to do small disengagements <backwards, just a bit> then come back in.. IMO it's the absence of the emphasis on forward spring energy that is responsible for this tendency....

JMO
I've understood the concept of forward intent in WC having studied from 4 students of Yip Man and some 2nd generation Yip Man students since the early 70's. ;)
I'm fast enough to do what I did in that clip even when someone is pushing forward.
Are you in NY? If so we can meet sometime and I can show you. I'm at 64 E. 4th St. 4th floor every Sat. from 3:30 -5:30pm
I touch on forward intent in these clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K0f8LoAPQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbkj18K2N2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1rNvqxFC3Y

[YungChun]

I've understood the concept of forward intent in WC since 1970. ;)
I'm fast enough to do what I did in that clip even when someone is pushing forward.
Are you in NY? If so we can meet sometime and I can show you. I'm at 64 E. 4th St. 4th floor every Sat. from 3:30 -5:30pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K0f8LoAPQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbkj18K2N2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1rNvqxFC3Y

I'll try to stop by sometime.. I'm hoping to be more active this year........

Still I can't agree that when one tool *springs* forward that anyone is going to be able to then go reverse go around and then in again as the initial *spring* continues on its merry springing way.. By definition that means your tool will need to move several times faster than the forward moving 'spring'.. Which even if it could work completely violates the system's 'idea' as I was taught it. My sihings back in the old days could take my center not by moving faster but by having better *position* and energy...

[Phil Redmond]

I'll try to stop by sometime.. I'm hoping to be more active this year........

Still I can't agree that when one tool *springs* forward that anyone is going to be able to then go back around and in again as that initial *spring* continues on it's merry springing way.. By definition that means your tool will need to move several times faster than the forward moving 'spring'.. Which even if it could work completely violates the system's 'idea' as I was taught it. My sihings back in the old days could take my center not by moving faster but by having better *position* and energy...
What can I say, speed kills. :cool:
I'll pm you my cell so you can contact me.

[k gledhill]

feel free to drop by ,same address as Phil :D writing doesnt convey the idea...easier to show hands on than words...

btw pictures dont convey ideas....but you will find out.

if I didnt know what i know now, I too would see pictures and see similarities...its all about an idea . Being precise for photos doesnt matter becasue you wont see the 'thinking'.


the issue isnt the fook etc... but the central idea being developed throughout....the process in the system for developing a striking attack ..

curious ?

[YungChun]

feel free to drop by ,same address as Phil :D writing doesnt convey the idea...easier to show hands on than words...

btw pictures dont convey ideas....but you will find out.

if I didnt know what i know now, I too would see pictures and see similarities...its all about an idea . Being precise for photos doesnt matter becasue you wont see the 'thinking'.


the issue isnt the fook etc... but the central idea being developed throughout....the process in the system for developing a striking attack ..

curious ?
Well yes I am curious, curious if you do luksao... LOL

Also interesting: you both work out of the same place yet appear to have diametrically opposed ideas on the system.. You guys ever do any friendly ChiSao?

[k gledhill]

my door is open...my cup empty.