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Thomas316
11-23-2009, 05:22 AM
i had some questions regarding hung mun hand signals in hung sing choy li fut. what do these hand signals mean and does anyone have a link to youtube that demonstrates these hand signals?

Thomas316
11-23-2009, 09:33 AM
are the hung mun hand signals in the forms? do you have a site that shows these hung mun signals?

Ao Qin
11-23-2009, 05:50 PM
:)Nice reply hsk, and it's a fascinating subject to me - the "codified" messages embedded in the forms / sessions. All TCMA systems seem to incorporate this sort of thing, whether in the movements themselves, or the names of the movements (poetry). Related largely to Taoist / Buddhist principles, but also to the underground movements as well. For instance, every movement in the Dragon Style bow has a purpose / meaning, with different levels of understanding as a student's understanding grows. Some people (Westerners) just label it as "Chinese Freemasonry", but don't bother to dig any deeper.

As the saying goes; those who know do not say, those who say do not know. It's largely irrelevant to a "western" student, except for the cultural interest. This seems to be one of the reasons traditional teachers wanted to keep these forms / sessions "intact" and unaltered.

It would make a really good thesis for a student of anthropology!

Thomas316
11-24-2009, 04:02 AM
can someone please tell me which movements are signals and what the meaning is? im very curious. thanks.

also, in the lee koon hung sup ji kau da dvd, are there any hung mun signals in the form from that dvd?

David Jamieson
11-24-2009, 06:49 AM
can someone please tell me which movements are signals and what the meaning is? im very curious. thanks.

also, in the lee koon hung sup ji kau da dvd, are there any hung mun signals in the form from that dvd?

?

bows at beginning and ending of form are frequently different from school to school, society to society. depending on origin.

the typical salute is a signal palm into fist extended forward. there is meaning in how high you hold this, whether the hand is covering the fist or resting on it if it is above the eyes or at heart level and so on.

there is double meaning within forms as well.

Do you have a kungfu teacher? If so, that really oughta be your source at this point.

I really don't think anyone is gonna give up their clubs symbols to someone on the net for the sake of it.

CLFNole
11-24-2009, 09:05 AM
also, in the lee koon hung sup ji kau da dvd, are there any hung mun signals in the form from that dvd?

As a teacher at the LKH school I can tell you we were never taught if our forms had hung mun signals or not. That set comes from the Chan Hueng/Chan Koon Pak line so it might not have any hung mun connection at all since it is not a Jeong Yim set.

bawang
11-24-2009, 10:59 AM
i had some questions regarding hung mun hand signals in hung sing choy li fut. what do these hand signals mean and does anyone have a link to youtube that demonstrates these hand signals?

no................................

CLFNole
11-24-2009, 12:34 PM
I guess if you know what to look for you can probably find a lot of hidden signals throughout southern styles.

Thomas316
11-24-2009, 01:22 PM
thanks for the replies. can someone explain what each signal means?

bawang
11-24-2009, 01:45 PM
look at the past posts of this guy he learns from books and dvds

Ao Qin
11-26-2009, 07:41 PM
Hi Thomas - please see the email I sent you through this forum - I haven't checked it for some time, but did actually get this one.

It's as simple as the Hung Gar "Iron Finger". And as complicated as a CLF or Dragon bow. It's fascinating if you're into the cultural / spiritual aspects of the arts. I'm sure HSK has much more to teach you about this than I do. However, being a Freemason, I appreciate the symbolism contained in the style(s), and the arcane references to philosophical texts. But, to apply this & use this in your personal life, you need to be a student of Buddhism / Daosim with a competent teacher. As I am not Chinese, I will never really "get it" (though I continue to try).

And it obviously has nothing to do with MMA, the death touch, or fighting. TCMA includes philosophy / poetry, healing, non-violent pursuits, and spiritual studies as well (self actualization).

Phil Redmond
11-27-2009, 12:16 AM
The Hung Mun are recognized freemasons and use many many hand signals, and use many of the same symbols used in western freemasonry.

here....this is a traditional Hung Mun lion blessing...i've showed it before....but its real traditional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLdpQwCnJGo
Hung Mung Masonry is generally the same as other Masons up to the 3rd Degree. Then there are some changes. After the third degree the emphasis is on Chinese Ching/Ming dynamics.

Thomas316
11-27-2009, 05:04 AM
can someone recommend any books about the chinese freemasons?

Lee Chiang Po
11-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Are we talking about flashing gang signs here? And Chinese freemasons?

David Jamieson
11-28-2009, 06:17 AM
Hung Mung Masonry is generally the same as other Masons up to the 3rd Degree. Then there are some changes. After the third degree the emphasis is on Chinese Ching/Ming dynamics.

Chinese freemasons actually have nothing to do with freemasonry as it is known in the west. The similarity ends at calling it freemasonry.

I'm sure those who are freemasons know this. There is a hugely obvious reason why.

Phil Redmond
11-28-2009, 12:14 PM
Chinese freemasons actually have nothing to do with freemasonry as it is known in the west. The similarity ends at calling it freemasonry.

I'm sure those who are freemasons know this. There is a hugely obvious reason why.
Well, I was accepted to a Hung Mun lodge because I was already a Master Mason. I was told that Hung Mun acknowledged our charter.

David Jamieson
11-28-2009, 12:34 PM
I'm not arguing about charters and such. I know there's an understanding.

However:

In the West, the Tiandihui/Hongmen has sometimes adopted the name "Chinese Freemasons", on the basis of the strong superficial parallels between the two; both have quasi-religious aspects, make use of esoteric symbolism, and include many factions. However, they have different ethical systems, different origins, and different purposes.

TenTigers
11-28-2009, 03:02 PM
The first Chinese immigrants arrived in 1820. George Washington was Master of his Lodge in the US. In fact, most of the people who signed the Declaration of Independance were Freemasons.
So I am not sure how much an influence Chinese FM had on Western FM, unless you are referring to Western in the sense of Europeans. Then it would be a whle different story.

Ao Qin
11-28-2009, 07:15 PM
I'm not getting into this tonight, but;

#1 - There is no such thing as Chinese "Freemasonry" - the term was adapted to make it more "palitable" for Westerners. The Tongs who took this name may have had "some" exposure to the HK British Freemasons, and have used this term to integrate themselves / deflect critisism from their own going-ons. And the British were every bit as secretive / racist as the Chinese (around inclusion / seclusion) when the Chinese were exposed to the few lodges in HK. They outlawed the tongs / triads back then, so like the book "who moved my cheese", sniff and scurry had to adapt.

#2 - Western Freemasonry MAY have been influenced by middle eastern traditions (Sufism / Egyptian Mysticism, etc.) - NOTHING to do with China. China has its own esoteric traditions far older and richer than Western Freemasonry. And there is NO evidence to prove that the two traditions collided, so far as I'm aware - except in the most elementary sense.

#3 - Canadian Provincial Lodges do not accept or recognize the term "Chinese Freemasons". And Canada is part of the Commonwealth / British tradition that gave the movement its roots, and governs the Craft. Having said that, I again would question / wonder, why any Chinese "secret" society would even want to be a part / attach their names to this Christian / Western Pagan tradition? They have a much richer history philosophicaly than we do!

I guess I did get into this tonight...and pardon the spelling - this site needs a spell-checker. I know I'm gonna rue posting this tomorrow!

Cheers - AQ

Xiao3 Meng4
11-28-2009, 08:45 PM
From a 1920 print of

Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry prepared for the Supreme Council of the Thirty-Third Degree, for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, and Published by its Authority. (1871, Grand Commander Albert Pike)




III.
The Master

To understand literally the symbols and allegories of Oriental books as to ante-historical matters, is to willfully close our eyes against the light. To translate the symbols into the trivial and commonplace, is the blundering of mediocrity.
All religious expression is symbolism; since we can describe only what we see, and the true objects of religion are THE SEEN....

IX.
Elect of the Nine

... It is not the mission of Masonry to engage in plots and conspiracies against the civil government. It is not the fanatical propagandist of any creed or theory; nor does it proclaim itself the enemy of kings. It is the apostle of liberty, equality, and fraternity; but it is not more the high-priest of republicanism than of constitutional monarchy. It contracts no entangling alliances with any sect of theorists, dreamers or philosophers...

X.
Illustrious Elect of the Fifteen

...Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it...

XX.
Grand Master of All Symbolic Lodges

Forget not that, more than three thousand years ago, Zoroaster said: "Be good, be kind, be humane, and charitable; love your fellows; console the afflicted; pardon those who have done you wrong." Nor more than two thousand three hundred years ago Confucius repeated, also quoting the language of those who had lived before himself: "Love thy neighbour as thyself; Do not do to others what thou wouldst not wish to be done to thyself: Forgive injuries. Forgive your enemy, be reconciled to him, give him assistance, invoke God on his behalf!"
Let not the morality of your Lodge be inferior to that of the Persian or the Chinese philosopher...

XXIV.
Prince of the Tabernacle

... Hence sprung the doctrine of the transmigration of souls; which Pythagoras taught as an allegory, and those who came after him received literally. Plato, like him, drew his doctrines from the East and the Mysteries... Plato says, that souls will not reach the term of their ills, until the revolutions of the world have restored them to their primitive condition, and purify them from the stains which they have contracted... The Curds, the Chinese, the Kabbalists, all held the same doctrine... The Mysteries among the Chinese and Japanese came from India, and were founded on the same principles and with familiar rites... The main features of the Druidical Mysteries resembled those of the Orient.

XXV.
Knight of the Brazen Serpent

Abulfaragius says that the seven great primitive nations, from whom all others descended, the Persians, Chaldaeans, Greeks, Egyptians, Turks, Indians, and Chinese, all originally were Sabaeists, and worshipped the Stars... And the Chinese built Temples to Heaven, the Earth, and genii of the air, of the water, of the mountains, and of the stars, to the sea dragon, and to the planet Mars... The Couciet [Kou Xie? Ku Hsieh?], a Chinese book, speaks of a palace composed of four buildings, whose gates looked toward the four corners of the world. That on the East was dedicated to the new moons of the months of Spring; that on the West to those of Autumn; that on the South to those of Summer; and that on the North to those of Winter: and in this palace the Emperor and his grandees sacrificed a lamb, the animal that represented the sun at the Vernal equinox... The number five was sacred among the Chinese, as that of the planets other than the Sun and Moon. Astrology consecrated the numbers twelve, seven, thirty, and thee hundred and sixty; and everywhere SEVEN, the number of the planets, was as sacred as TWELVE, that of the signs, the months, the oriental cycles, and the sections of the horizon... In China, astrology taught the mode of governing the State and families...

XXXII.
Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret

The Occult Science of the Ancient Magi was concealed under the shadows of the Ancient Mysteries: it was imperfectly revealed or rather disfigured by the Gnostics: it is guessed at under the obscurities that cover the pretended crimes of the Templars; and it is found enveloped in enigmas that seem impenetrable, in the Rites of the Highest Masonry.
Magism was the Science of Abraham and Orpheus, of Confucius and Zoroaster... Every degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, from the first to the thirty-second, teaches by its ceremonial as well as by its instruction, that the noblest purpose of life and the highest duty of man are to strive incessantly and vigorously to win the mastery of everything, of that which in him is spiritual and divine, over that which is material and sensual; so that in him also, as in the Universe which God governs, Harmony and Beauty may be the result of a just equilibrium... From the mutual action and reaction of each of these pairs of opposites and contraries results that which with them forms the Triangle, to all the Ancient Sages the expressive symbol of the Deity... It is the right angled Triangle, representing man, as a union of the spiritual and material, of the divine and human. The base... represents the Deity and the Divine; the perpendicular... represents the Earth, the Material, and the Human; and the hypotenuse... represents that nature which is produced by the union of the Divine and Human, the Soul and the Body... And as in each Triangle of Perfection, one is three and three are one, so man is one, though of a double nature; and he attains the purposes of his being only when the two natures that are in him are in just equilibrium; and his life is a success only when it too is in harmony, and beautiful, like the great Harmonies of God and the Universe. Such, my Brother, is the TRUE word of a Master Mason; such the true ROYAL SECRET, which makes possible, and shall at length make real, the HOLY EMPIRE of true Masonic Brotherhood. GLORIA DEI EST CELARE VERBUM. AMEN.

Amazing what you can find at the thrift store, LOL!

Sounds like the more community minded Chinese tongs and the Freemasons would at least enjoy a round of golf together.

P.S. How interesting - this is the 33rd reply.

Xiao3 Meng4
11-29-2009, 03:08 PM
You're welcome. :)

Phil Redmond
11-29-2009, 11:04 PM
very interesting what i was just tol by a well known and controversial Mason....

It's been recorded somewhere that Western Freemason HAD INDEED borrowed from the eastern Secret Societies. Many things, including the use of costumes and some cermonies are borrowed from the Chinese.

in his words: "there was alot of influencing eachother inthe 18th century in the place we define as the Head of all Dragons and thats Hong Kong. In a British masonic paper of a Secret society in Britain in that persiod they used chinese structure and traditions and even clothes"
I was taught than many Masonic Traditions are based on King Solomon's Temple.

David Jamieson
11-30-2009, 07:08 AM
I was taught than many Masonic Traditions are based on King Solomon's Temple.

Have you read any Christopher Knight or Robert Lomas?

TenTigers
11-30-2009, 08:26 AM
is that only your lodge, or are all Chinese Freemason lodges accepted by the Grand Lodge and recognized as Free and Accepted Masons?
There doesn't seem to be one on the NYC Grand Lodge's list of locations.

Phil Redmond
11-30-2009, 09:37 AM
Have you read any Christopher Knight or Robert Lomas?

No, I haven't but I'll look into them, Thx

TenTigers
11-30-2009, 09:46 AM
Ok, in the 1830's, the First Hung Mun lodge was founded in America. That today is called the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong. It's the mother of all other Hung Mun's. you can say its the Grand Lodge or as we term it....the world supreme lodge.

According to research, the Chinese have fought long and hard on their entitlement of using the square and compass. Still, the Hung Mun isn't trying to ride the FREEMASON bandwagon in the least. The Hung Mun has their own secret signals, secrets, history, purpose,fraternity, and ceremonies. and, the Heaven, Earth and Man Society has been in existance as long as western freemasonry has.

now, the other Hung Mun's also use the Square and Compass. So, to answer your question, as far as i know, California is a major hub for the Free and Accepted Masons. I'm not too sure about the other lodges. But, ours is a Grand Lodge. And they give out ONE Hiram Award a year for dedicated Masonic Service. it's this Fraternity that has recognized the Hung Society as true Free Masons......:
http://www.freemason.org/

That's great. I heard that NYC has two Chinese Freemasons-one being Hung Mun, the other being a F&AM Lodge. But, of all the Hung Mun guys I've met, all were also Masons and treated me as a brother. Perhaps Phil could shed some light on this?

Xiao3 Meng4
11-30-2009, 11:55 AM
Ok, in the 1830's, the First Hung Mun lodge was founded in America. That today is called the Hung Mun Ghee Kung Tong. It's the mother of all other Hung Mun's. you can say its the Grand Lodge or as we term it....the world supreme lodge.


Do you know when the Ghee Kung Tong was accepted into the Masonic order? I'm asking because I'd be interested to know whether or not it was before or after Albert Pike wrote his book. If it was before, there's a chance that the Chinese related information within it came from the Ghee Kung Tong.

Phil:

I'm no Mason, so what I'm about to say is an educated guess only. Skimming the book, it seems laid out degree by degree, with curriculum outlines in each chapter, indicating what Masons of that particular degree should learn, understand and do. The book starts with basic maths, symbols, ideals and protocols, then moves on to Christian and Jewish allegory (King Solomon, etc,) then Greek and Roman, then Egyptian, then Persian/Indian, and finally Zorastrian/Chinese, with lots of other smaller cultures being mentioned in the process. Paganism is also threaded throughout.

Back in the middle ages, that was the big Masonic "secret" - they weren't Christian. Apparently, the knights of the Crusades were conflicted, unable to reconcile their faith with all the death, violence and horror commited by both sides. Good people died while evil people lived. While fighting in the middle East, they came across the Zoroastrians, whose philosophies were dualistic and humanistic as opposed to monotheistic. The Zoroastrian philosophy allowed the Knights to better come to terms with the wars. When they returned to Europe, they brought their newfound doctrines with them. They were still Christian in name and root faith, though, so they feared excommunication just like anyone else at that time. As a result, they could not reveal their non-Christian perspectives in public. So they kept them up in Private, and when they allied with the Masons, they spread their new philosophy, which eventually developed into the Freemasons we know today. But yeah, that's supposedly the true big "secret" - they were heretics of their time.

David Jamieson
11-30-2009, 01:44 PM
For a touch of levity, I submit this assortnment of hand signs with descriptions.

;D

http://www.cracked.com/article_14956_how-blend-in-with-your-local-gang.html

Shaolin Dude
11-30-2009, 10:29 PM
has anyone read the dragon syndicates book by martin booth? there's a few pictures in that book with triad hand signs. I'm not sure which triads they belong to though

Xiao3 Meng4
11-30-2009, 10:37 PM
I always thought hand signals were supposed to be really obscure and unnoticeable unless you looked for it... like the way you're holding something, or passing something?

bawang
12-01-2009, 12:04 AM
u r proud of it because?

bawang
12-01-2009, 12:19 AM
my cousin was sold by his best friend as a drug slave to triads in guangdong 8 years ago. they asked for 7000 yuan ransom , took the money and kept him.
i respect the ming patriotic ideals of the hong men so i wont say anything bad on the internet about them, and the internet isnt for criticisms like that, but some white kung fu hobbyist latching on to chinese gangster culture to be cool, i find that offensive

Shaolin Dude
12-01-2009, 02:19 AM
The Dragon Syndicates is also a good book. But, as i did my research, he's rehashing some things previously written down. It's a good book though.

There are other books out there that will have the hand signals. you can also watch the documentary of Gangland: Chinatown. the signals are there.

But let me ask you this.....what signals are you trying to learn and why? Once you learn the signals what do you plan on doing with them?

I'm not trying to learn any hand signals. Since this thread is about hand signals, I want to add my input. I'm going back to lurking mode

banditshaw
12-01-2009, 03:22 PM
Check out the Hong Kong triad movie called Election or Triad Election. Directed by Johnny To. There is a scene that breaks down the history of the triads and shows some guys doing Hung Mun Hand signs. Good movie as well. It focuses on the Wo Sing tong.

David Jamieson
12-01-2009, 03:57 PM
You could also look into mudras which are hand forms used with meditations to form intention for the meditator.

CLFNole
12-01-2009, 08:07 PM
Election is a fairly newer movie that starred Yam Dat Wa (Simon Yam) and Koo Tin Lok (Louis Koo). The 1st movie was good, the 2nd one not very good.

David Jamieson
12-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Frank-

Here is an interesting article from The grand Lodge in Vancouver in regards to the Hung Men.

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/history/chinese_freemasons/index.html

This information is pretty much accepted in western masonic orders.

David Jamieson
12-02-2009, 01:41 PM
yeah, i've read that many times. But you got to get some good books out there that will tell you a different perspective. The more you search, you will come to know that Freemason drew upon many different cultures and socieities to create their own society.

Still, even western freemasonry is in disagreement to many aspects on the origins of their own society. To exclude the Chinese from this IMHO is not only arrogant, but also extremely biased. but thats cool, if you searched more with open eyes, you'd see.

I have read extensively and yes I agree, the origins are not 100% clear and indeed there is a lot of debate about it. A lot of this comes from the actual establishment of the lodges in the 1700's. But they assuredly did not spring into existence unformed and in fact were very well formed.

They in fact do not exclude the Chinese and there are a great deal of Free and Accepted Masons who are Chinese, Indian, Arabic, European, African, you name it and they are there in the rank and file of the brotherhood worldwide. :)

However, I would add that there is no "G" in chinese ideograms and I would also add that a lot of research beyond that page has been done on the subject.

In the 1800's the tong borrowed the Masonic symbol with G to gain acceptance in the west. If they were Freemasons they would be simply that. Not a separate and apart order. Their lodges would be gathered under grand lodges and their members would have tokens and grips that would gain them access to all masonic lodges across the world. There odges would be numbered and counted wit the rest around the world. However, this is not the case.

Quite simply, they are two separate entities. Of course they recognize each other. That is not disputed. And the Free and Accepted Masons don't begrudge the Chinese freemasons for their calling themselves Masons. they just aren't part of that tradition and the Free and accepted masons aren't part of the traditions of the Hung Men.

They don't flow together, they don't follow the same practices, they don't share the same principles or charters or anything beyond some superficial things. they do not even have the same set up in the lodges.

A Chinese freemasons lodge has nothing in it that bears similarity to a Freemasons lodge. They certainly don't use the language, names, tokens, grips or rituals of the western traditions.

If you go deep enough yourself you'll see it. There are a great deal of publications that reveal a great deal of information about Free and Accepted Masons in the western traditions.

Chinese freemasons cannot go to any masonic lodge and enter as free and accepted masons.

Really that's all I have to say about it. My family is littered with free and accepted masons going back generations.

David Jamieson
12-02-2009, 02:26 PM
The Tian Ti Hui was also in existence as a secret society of freemasons took place. The two were raised side by side but not with each other.

The Hung Men and their predecessor was completely whole and apart from Western traditions of freemasonry and did not adopt the western symbol until the 1800's. The Heaven/Earth society goes back so far in antiquity it is not part of what is considered modern freemasonry.



out of context. i meant to say chinese were not freemasons because they were chinese was the issue. they may not be of western freemasons, but the chinese had their own freemasons pr societies. The chinese indeed did have their own secret societies. They did not use the term freemasons until the 1800's when they had their contacts with Lodges in the east.






Right. The HUNG society Chinese Freemasons uses "洪" or another set of characters connected to the Hung Mun instead that of the "G". Chinese freemasons use the G. Use of the different set is not an issue, but I can go take a picture of the Hung Men building on Dundas street here in my city and it quite clearly shows the CHinese freemasons using the "G". For instance, as shown in that article the Hung Men building on Pender street in Vancouver shows this:

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/history/chinese_freemasons/doorway.jpg




Can you tell me what that means? or what your interpretation of what a Freemason really is?What I mean by that is if they were part of the order of free and accepted masons of the western tradition. My "interpretation" of what a freemason is is not my interpretation. It's pretty much laid out in the principles of freemasonry as to what a freemason is and represents in society.

Also, Freemasons in the western tradition are not a secret society. They are open to any man to join. the only secrets are the grips and tokens and those are only secret so as to know who's knocking on the door and who should be allowed into lodge and identification of degree work done etc etc.

David Jamieson
12-02-2009, 02:57 PM
You're not being serious are you? Ummmm.....in the late 1870's there were more than 390 of my Hung Mun Lodges with San Francisco being the Overseer of all the other branches. The SF Branch IS the Grand Lodge, hence the chinese terminology of Ng Jo Hung Mung Ghee Kung Jung Tong.

In Hung Mun there is only ONE Dragon Head. And THAT position is held by SF. There was a Hung Mun Dragon Head in HK but once he died the position was never filled. Our Dragon Head was a soldier under the former.

We Don't have grips that would allow us access to other lodges? Ummmm sure. :)



As i said, Chinese never claimed European Freemasonry. yet......if the Chinese weren't recognized and accepted, we would have never received the HIGHEST Freemason award. That's not something easily given out.

Perhaps I'm not being clear. Yes, the Hung Men have lodges. However, you as a member of Hung men do not have access to the almost 5000 Freemasons lodges with it's 5 million members worldwide and their lodges throughout the world.

You may very well gain entry to Hung Men lodges, but not to Masonic lodges of the western traditions. Simply because you are not recognized as a Freemason even though you are a Hung Men member with full privileges to that society. Any member of the Hung Men may join a Masonic lodge of the western tradition. They are not mutual to each other. All other Masonic lodges are in the western tradition around the world.

A freemason in the US or Canada or anywhere for instance, can go and enter a lodge in Scotland, or Germany. or England or France or Italy or anywhere. He will have his grips and his tokens that will give him access and the only that he will be asked to leave for is if there is degree work being done that is of a level that i above his own.

so yes, you can go to all the other Hung Men lodges without a doubt! I am not disputing that in the least.

I am saying that the Hung Men and The western tradition of Freemasonry are not mutual and do not share mutual access or principles or focus or degree work or tradition and so on.

Hence my original statement that beyond some superficial things, Chinese Freemasons and Free and Accepted Masons of the western tradition are not mutual to each other nor are they connected in anyway beyond that superficiality.

sorry if I was being unclear.

David Jamieson
12-02-2009, 04:28 PM
Nevermind Frank.
Forget that I even bothered with it, I'm certainly not going to bother anymore with it. lol
It's not important.

:)

Phil Redmond
12-02-2009, 06:50 PM
I've been to the Lodge on Dundas Street in TO. They use the G just like the Hung Mun Lodge on Mott street in NYC does.

Ao Qin
12-09-2009, 07:39 PM
There is a guy who used to post on these forums, who REALLY tried to combine Western Freemasonry with the spin-off "Chinese Freemasonry". Roger Hagood?

Anyway - I'm sure he has evolved as we all have through these forums, and would have a very interesting take on this subject.

But again - Western Freemasonry has nothing to do with the Chinese equivilant - check with the Grand Lodge of Britain if you don't believe me - they will be happy to enlighten you. That being said, all mystical traditions share common traits, if you dig hard enough.

Cheers - AQ

Thomas316
01-03-2010, 03:36 PM
thanks for the posts. the reason im asking about the hand signals is because i want to stay away from anything that conflicts with Christianity. that being said, which movements represents the five elements? does anyone know if karate uses hung mun signals since southern kung fu influenced karate?

hskwarrior
01-03-2010, 04:02 PM
nope....i doubt even gung fu has hung mun hand signals......ummmmm what is hung mun? ahhhh i never heard of it. :confused:

David Jamieson
01-03-2010, 11:05 PM
thanks for the posts. the reason im asking about the hand signals is because i want to stay away from anything that conflicts with Christianity. that being said, which movements represents the five elements? does anyone know if karate uses hung mun signals since southern kung fu influenced karate?

How do hand signals identifying ones grasp of knowledge of something conflict with christianity?

Thomas316
01-04-2010, 01:28 AM
i cant be involved in symbolisms that make references to any religion or religious type organizations. i first need to know the facts before creating my own conclusions. were the choy li fut forms originally created for combat or as symbolism for the hung mun?

David Jamieson
01-04-2010, 04:39 AM
i cant be involved in symbolisms that make references to any religion or religious type organizations. i first need to know the facts before creating my own conclusions. were the choy li fut forms originally created for combat or as symbolism for the hung mun?

Let me get this straight, you're a christian who needs the facts first?

Excuse me for pointing out how extremely odd and somewhat rude that is in context to what you are asking.

You are practically dismissing kungfu before you get anything from it and are asking about whether or not it is religious.

Does boxing and it's routines interfere with christianity?

If you are worried about upholding traditions, then just go somewhere like an mma gym or find a club that is completely devoid of any traditional constructs.

Forms are combinations strung together into long exercises. Some are filled with boxing techniques and others are for developing good breathing habits and movement habits.

You're not worshipping anything by practicing kungfu. You're doing the same stuff as anyone else in any other martial art. Just training using the methodologies put before you.

hskwarrior
01-04-2010, 07:49 AM
were the choy li fut forms originally created for combat or as symbolism for the hung mun?

ummm, i think you may want to do some american karate or something. cause once you start learning chinese martial arts, you lose your connection to christianity being that chinese martial arts are taoist and buddhist, NOT christian. so maybe give up martial arts all together.

what does your religion have to do with anything?

once ronin
01-04-2010, 09:52 AM
Most, if not all Chinese Martials Arts has history to some Taoist and Buddhist back ground.

The true christian should just join a YMCA and excersise not learn some Military Art to hurt someone.

hskwarrior
01-04-2010, 10:09 AM
true true......

yet, isn't it a Christian thing to turn the other cheek?

Choy Lee Fut people tend NOT to turn the other cheek....**** man....that's NOT very Christian! oh wait....Choy Lee Fut is a Buddhist art...sorry. LOL

once ronin
01-04-2010, 05:05 PM
When in Rome, follow the customs of the Romans.

When in any temple respect and follow the customs of the deities.

Thomas316 if you are to follow your Christian cook book you may as well forget about doing any martial arts. Most martial arts have some rituals attached to it.

You may want to ty MMA, although its called mixed martial arts it is not a military or martial art. At the end of any MMA confrontation no one is meant to die. A broken arm or hyper extented elbow maybe but no one will be chopped or is meant to die.

In any martial art it intent is to teach someone an art to hurt and kill. Any karate or kung fu punch into the belly is meant to hurt one's organs.

mooyingmantis
01-04-2010, 05:29 PM
i cant be involved in symbolisms that make references to any religion or religious type organizations. i first need to know the facts before creating my own conclusions. were the choy li fut forms originally created for combat or as symbolism for the hung mun?

Thomas,
As an ordained minister (pentecostal) and having served in Christian ministry for 14 years, perhaps I can help you. As far as the hung mun hand signs are concerned, they are inert unless YOU place credence in them. Accept them as something with a cultural/historical flavor that others may place significance on, but that need not have any meaning to you. They will have no effect on your spiritual life.
Though you may lose a cultural experience from rejecting them, they have little relevance in learning to defend yourself. If that is the goal of your Chinese martial arts experience.
I don't believe that my decades of Chinese martial arts study, along with studying the oriental philosophies has had any negative effect on my personal spiritual life.
Richard

hskwarrior
01-04-2010, 06:29 PM
Let me explain further....

The signals Have NOTHING to do with religion. They are just that.....signals. They were living in a time that being in the society meant instant beheading, and their signals were meant to TELL another member in the crowd that we are brothers so to speak.

they are not evil. or against religion. In fact, Christianity did play a part in the Hung Mun cause a member (Hung Siu Kwan) was converted to christianity.

but as everyone is saying......the signals have nothing to do with any religion at all.

HSCLFCPA
01-05-2010, 12:00 AM
I am a Chinese Christian and study and practice CLF. I don't bow to Buddha or any of the Eastern deities as taught by some sifus. I am not showing any disrespect, but just don't believe in them. I know of a lot of other Chinese Christian kung-fu practitioners who are of the same thought. Some of them even own some heavy firearms and they will shoot to kill. In a nutshell, I can still be a Christian and practice CLF or kung-fu.:)

David Jamieson
01-05-2010, 04:31 AM
I am a Chinese Christian and study and practice CLF. I don't bow to Buddha or any of the Eastern deities as taught by some sifus. I am not showing any disrespect, but just don't believe in them. I know of a lot of other Chinese Christian kung-fu practitioners who are of the same thought. Some of them even own some heavy firearms and they will shoot to kill. In a nutshell, I can still be a Christian and practice CLF or kung-fu.:)

shoot to kill christians.

kinda catchy!

taai gihk yahn
01-05-2010, 06:03 AM
oh wait....Choy Lee Fut is a Buddhist art...sorry. LOL
other wise it would be Choih Lei Jesu; or Choih Lei Allah; or Choih Lei Yaweh (last one is kinda catchy...)

taai gihk yahn
01-05-2010, 06:04 AM
Thomas,
As an ordained minister (pentecostal) and having served in Christian ministry for 14 years, perhaps I can help you. As far as the hung mun hand signs are concerned, they are inert unless YOU place credence in them. Accept them as something with a cultural/historical flavor that others may place significance on, but that need not have any meaning to you. They will have no effect on your spiritual life.
Though you may lose a cultural experience from rejecting them, they have little relevance in learning to defend yourself. If that is the goal of your Chinese martial arts experience.
I don't believe that my decades of Chinese martial arts study, along with studying the oriental philosophies has had any negative effect on my personal spiritual life.
Richard

I am a devout atheist, but can I still get a rousing Ah-men for this?

taai gihk yahn
01-05-2010, 07:28 AM
I don't bow to Buddha or any of the Eastern deities as taught by some sifus. I am not showing any disrespect, but just don't believe in them.
well, Buddha was a real person who basically taught people how to be free of habitual psychological patterns that caused them to do things that brought about suffering; he was basically the Dr. Phil of his day; so what's not to believe there? as for all the quasi-religious trappings of Buddhism, that all came later - the Buddha himself never prescribed any such behavior on the part of anyone who he taught; so one can appreciate and even follow the teachings of Buddha and never once touch on any sort of theistic practice at all

as for Eastern deities, that's fine not to believe (I don't), but one might question the inherent logic of choosing to believe in one deity as opposed to another; once the gates of belief are open, if one has chosen to include a given deity (Yaweh, Allah, Marduk, etc.), then who's to say that their particular belief is the correct one, as opposed to any other? in fact, other than the fact that typically people follow whatever faith they happened to be raised in, most people have no reason to follow a particular faith as opposed to another...

taai gihk yahn
01-05-2010, 07:31 AM
i want to stay away from anything that conflicts with Christianity.
you mean like logic, reason and textual consistency?

CLFNole
01-05-2010, 11:50 AM
I don't think bowing to General Kwan goes against religion (I am Catholic albeit not much of a church goer, did the whole bit as a child). Bowing to General Kwan or my Sifu's picture is just a sign of respect not worship. I think people confuse the two way too much.

Drake
01-05-2010, 12:02 PM
I don't think bowing to General Kwan goes against religion (I am Catholic albeit not much of a church goer, did the whole bit as a child). Bowing to General Kwan or my Sifu's picture is just a sign of respect not worship. I think people confuse the two way too much.

Dude, I would SO go to your school if I lived in FLA.

Mano Mano
01-05-2010, 12:08 PM
I don't think bowing to General Kwan goes against religion (I am Catholic albeit not much of a church goer, did the whole bit as a child). Bowing to General Kwan or my Sifu's picture is just a sign of respect not worship. I think people confuse the two way too much.

I was brought up as an Anglican although not practicing now & have the same attitude in regards to General Kwan. Even the Muslim members of the school I trained with took the same view as they were paying respect & not praying to him.

David Jamieson
01-05-2010, 12:41 PM
well, Buddha was a real person who basically taught people how to be free of habitual psychological patterns that caused them to do things that brought about suffering; he was basically the Dr. Phil of his day; so what's not to believe there? as for all the quasi-religious trappings of Buddhism, that all came later - the Buddha himself never prescribed any such behavior on the part of anyone who he taught; so one can appreciate and even follow the teachings of Buddha and never once touch on any sort of theistic practice at all

as for Eastern deities, that's fine not to believe (I don't), but one might question the inherent logic of choosing to believe in one deity as opposed to another; once the gates of belief are open, if one has chosen to include a given deity (Yaweh, Allah, Marduk, etc.), then who's to say that their particular belief is the correct one, as opposed to any other? in fact, other than the fact that typically people follow whatever faith they happened to be raised in, most people have no reason to follow a particular faith as opposed to another...


I think you've hit upon something here.

from now on, Buddha is Dr, Phil, Lao tze is Dr. Dyer, Confucius is Dr.Gray, and so on. Flip a coin for Jesus, but I'm going with Oprah so far.

hskwarrior
01-05-2010, 04:01 PM
personally.....i've given up my connection to ORGANIZED religion. However i DO believe in a HIGHER POWER....it's just that organized religions seem like fanatics. All point fingers at each other, and NONE OF THEM have it completely.

martial arts is a LIFESTYLE chosen by a warrior spirit. They do not pray to any gods other than those with a religion connected to it. In the Hung Mun or in kung fu, we do three bows to pay respects. Show our elders honor.

The hand signals are just a means of identification. Just as the sign of the cross is connected to religion.

taai gihk yahn
01-05-2010, 04:12 PM
I think you've hit upon something here.

from now on, Buddha is Dr, Phil, Lao tze is Dr. Dyer, Confucius is Dr.Gray, and so on. Flip a coin for Jesus, but I'm going with Oprah so far.

I'm just upset that no one has chimed in on behalf of Marduk: if you can't get behind a three-eyed, fire-breathing, ancient Babylonian deity, who can you trust?

in the words of Buddha / Dr. Phil, "Get real!"

TenTigers
01-05-2010, 04:47 PM
I pray only to Bawang.

banditshaw
01-05-2010, 04:55 PM
I worship Crom. He who laughs at the four winds.

TenTigers
01-05-2010, 05:12 PM
not to hijack, but why do you refer to Yaweh in the masculine form-if yaweh contains both male and female. In the old testament-God is used in plural-"Let us create life in our own image.." etc.
When we are embryos, we have equal potential potential to be either man or woman.

hskwarrior
01-05-2010, 05:16 PM
:eek: .................................................. ...........

hskwarrior
01-05-2010, 05:17 PM
oh hell no....religious nuts on a rampage.....MOVE!

hskwarrior
01-05-2010, 06:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ

follow that movie....it will make you see things differently

TenTigers
01-05-2010, 07:05 PM
Elohim the word or son (Seen only in divine vision as the prophet, "(the word came unto me saying)" not a book, the were seening the super incorporeal form

Yahsua the holy spirit manifested in or out of a physical now they can touch beheld him.

even though it appear to be three, it is just one, now Yahweh's spirit merely manifested into a physical body and walked around in his creation as the holy spirit who was born a male (masculine).

Yahweh, elohim and yahshua the messiah these three are one, 1 Joh 5-7, according to the purpose yahweh is too lofty in his ontological state of perfection to come down, neither is elohim but yahshua, now he's the saviour and redeemer of the world, he's the one Abraham is referring to. Kind like you being a son, brother and a father, as a father you don't act like a son, as a brother you don't act like a father. yet in still you can be all these things at the appropriate time, and guest what, there all you!!

He chose to work his purpose through the male why, because he himself knew how he created us, and he would be the only one that could bring us out of it, that why Abraham told his son Issac, Yahweh will provide himself a sacrifice, in other words, the spirit of Yahweh manifested in the flesh allowing himself to be offered up by his creatures so that the promise to abraham would become complete, no out pouring of the spirit until that male child (yahshua-Masculine) died on the cross, was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures.


BTW, Lord is a title, God is a title, paul say's in 1cor8-5, "for there be lords many and gods many, which one are you talking about, egypt had many gods, london has the house of lords, understand, Elohim is a title, but it is the title Yahweh chose for himself, remember the ensigns around the camp in the wilderness when israel came out of egypt, all round the tabernacle Eagle, Lion, Ox and the face of a man, when you put it all together:

Eagle (E)
Lion (L)
Ox (O)
Man or (Him)

This is the true wisdom of Yahweh that hidden in a mystery!!

Actually, according to the Hebrew Kabbalistic translations, the word Elohim is a plural formed from the feminine singular ALH, Eloh, by adding the final (mem) IM to the word. But inasmuch as IM is usually the termination of the masculine plural, and is here added to a feminine noun, it gives to the word Elohim the sense of a female potency united to a masculine idea, and thereby capable of producing an offspring.
Now we hear much of the Father and the Son, but we hear nothing of the Mother in the ordinary religions of the day. But in the Kabbalah we find that God the Creator transforms simultaneously into the Father and the Mother, and thus begets the Son. Elohim is the very act of creation itself. The original "Holy Trinity" is not Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but Father, Mother and Child.

David Jamieson
01-06-2010, 12:05 PM
not to mention...ancient hebrews didn't use english. :)

also, to the ancient Hebrews, and to modern Jews, the meaning "messiah" is completely different from that of Christianity. With the meaning from teh ancient hebrews being fairly secular in scope. As in, "the guy who will get the job done" whereas with Christians, a messiah has been converted into a godly being sent as divine intervention to remove all free will and solve all problems...which is contradictory to the source...but I digress. lol

anyway... interesting how these things unfold. :)

TenTigers
01-06-2010, 12:39 PM
not to mention...ancient hebrews didn't use english. :)

also, to the ancient Hebrews, and to modern Jews, the meaning "messiah" is completely different from that of Christianity. With the meaning from teh ancient hebrews being fairly secular in scope. As in, "the guy who will get the job done" whereas with Christians, a messiah has been converted into a godly being sent as divine intervention to remove all free will and solve all problems...which is contradictory to the source...but I digress. lol

anyway... interesting how these things unfold. :)
I was taught that the term meschiach (messiah) wasn't so much one person, but a global spiritual awakening. Perhaps it might be brought on by the workings of one person, but Ghandi, Mother Teresa,and others haven't woken up the world yet...

David Jamieson
01-06-2010, 01:03 PM
I was taught that the term meschiach (messiah) wasn't so much one person, but a global spiritual awakening. Perhaps it might be brought on by the workings of one person, but Ghandi, Mother Teresa,and others haven't woken up the world yet...

interesting!

i was taught it simply meant "the chosen one" or more correctly "annointed"

In a very real sense, David Ben Gurion is by all rights a mashiah! (If not "the" mashiah)

Why? Because he returned Israel to the world and gave the Jews their promised land!

Jesus? Not so much. Why? He failed to return the homeland to the Jews and was killed while they remained in bondage to Rome and their puppet kings of Judea. This is the principle reason why Jesus is reasoned to NOT be the messiah at all in the purest sense of the word and meaning within Judaeism.

At least, according to my understanding of it.

TenTigers
01-06-2010, 01:32 PM
I was taught that the term meschiach (messiah) wasn't so much one person, but a global spiritual awakening. Perhaps it might be brought on by the workings of one person, but Ghandi, Mother Teresa,and others haven't woken up the world yet...
probably what they were referring to as "the annointed one," being an impetus...
who knows?

sanjuro_ronin
01-06-2010, 02:22 PM
The OT God had many names, Yahweh was simply one of them, albeit the most used it seems.
When Jesus said he came in the name of his (Our) Father and said that he made his known and so forth, he did not mean A name ( personal) he meant what the Name stood for.
think in the name of the king, in the name of the law, etc.

Jesus advocated a PERSONAL relationship with God, not vie an organization or group of people, but a personal realtionship between US and God through His son Jesus ( If you are a Christian of course).
Jesus was very much against the religious establishment of his time.

When the apostles said that it was in Jesus's name that salvation woudl came and that his name was the name above all names, it didn't replace God's name, again it was what the name meant and what it "came with".

TenTigers
01-06-2010, 02:39 PM
"It is like a finger, pointing a way to the moon.
Don't concentwate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.":D

David Jamieson
01-06-2010, 02:51 PM
"It is like a finger, pointing a way to the moon.
Don't concentwate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.":D

heavenwy gwowy...ah yes. Elmer fudd Lee, the shower of teh way, the bwinger of light..i mean wight!

hskwarrior
01-06-2010, 04:49 PM
:( you're still so wong

TenTigers
01-06-2010, 05:22 PM
I never understood why Christianity doesn't recognize anyone but Jesus as the Son of God. Yet most all other "faiths" recognize us all as emanations of the creator, all "Children of God." Oh well, to each his own.
I wonder what extraterrestrials think of all this...

TenTigers
01-06-2010, 06:01 PM
you'll be surprised at what you find out when researching "Jesus" its origin and source,
which source would that be? Aramaic, Hebrew,Greek, Latin, post Nicean Council, English, Good News?What?

hskwarrior
01-06-2010, 07:12 PM
re:
that's so intelligent of you Franky, what am I wong about?

ummmmm. Before you open your mouth, know who i'm talking to. Just so you know.....i was responding to david jamieson so don't go questioning my intelligence. Don't even bring me into this. i'm not a religious nut.
the bwinger of light..i mean wight!

hence my usage of


you're still so wong

banditshaw
01-07-2010, 02:28 AM
which source would that be? Aramaic, Hebrew,Greek, Latin, post Nicean Council, English, Good News?What?

I saw Jesus at Whole Foods market wearing flip flops and buying granola.

David Jamieson
01-07-2010, 06:51 AM
I saw Jesus at Whole Foods market wearing flip flops and buying granola.

o rly?

well explain my sighting of him on a street car in downtown toronto on tuesday then.

and he was eating a chicken burger, wore dirty clothes, smelled funny and had a bottle of colt45 tucked in his pocket.

seriously, god is everywhere I guess... :p

TenTigers
01-07-2010, 08:25 AM
my sister's a Christian fundamentalist, and she was very upset when my Mom (jewish) told her she speaks to Jesus everyday.
Then my Mom introduced her to Jesus.
Jesus and Katie are her new neighbors.

sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2010, 08:30 AM
I never understood why Christianity doesn't recognize anyone but Jesus as the Son of God. Yet most all other "faiths" recognize us all as emanations of the creator, all "Children of God." Oh well, to each his own.
I wonder what extraterrestrials think of all this...

Actually, it does recognize all the angels as sons of God and all humans as children of God.
The difference being that Jesus was the only Begotten Son and all others were created through Jesus.
Jesus is not a created being, he is the instrument of creation that God worked through to create all.

hskwarrior
01-07-2010, 08:30 AM
well....last night i saw a "blackjesus" checking out this thread.....for real....no joke :eek:

CLFNole
01-07-2010, 08:37 AM
I saw Jesus at Whole Foods market wearing flip flops and buying granola.

Funny I also see Jesus a lot at Whole Foods.

TenTigers
01-07-2010, 08:50 AM
I see Jesus in many manifestations...especially in my neighborhood.

hskwarrior
01-07-2010, 12:50 PM
Hey Franky,

If thats who it was intended for my bad, i'm not a religious nut either, but as you are passionate about your Hung Sing history, I, too am passionate about an accurate knowledge and understanding of our creator, not folks concepts, theories and opinion, because like you, the information is out there that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the creator is real, if they only knew we were spirit entities in a natural experience.

Right, your bad.

Being passionate about the creator, architect of the universe, or what ever its official title be that's fine......organized religion is incomplete. All religions hold answers, but it there is only ONE creator......then why do we have so many religions? we should have only one belief system.

Muslims kill in the name of Allah, Christians tell you that other religions are evil, Catholics withold books from the bible to hide the truth. Jesus had sons, so where is the bloodline?

This thread was about Hung Mun hand signals, and turned into an effin religious discussion. And RELIGION is IMHO soooo full of BS! I'm not an athiest, and i rely on my spirit/soul to tell me what type of connection to our creator i need.

But i do have one question for you religious buffs....

NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING.........so if GOD was there before anyone, how'd he get there? it must have been a lonely existence then to not have birds, people, space...or anything else we know of today.

TenTigers
01-07-2010, 01:23 PM
NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING.........so if GOD was there before anyone, how'd he get there? it must have been a lonely existence then to not have birds, people, space...or anything else we know of today.
in the Kabballah, it is thought that God, being pure existance/conciousness was concious of its own existance, thus,required a "vessel" or substance to express itself in, hense matter was formed in the universe.
Jewish mystics, Kabballists, in fact most mystics, are the few that actually ponder the existance and reasons as well as manifestations of God, where most others simply go about their lives, focusing on pleasure and guilt.
Thisis the difference between the exoteric-most people, and the esoteric-the mystics/spiritualists.
Kind of like pondering, what happened before the Big Bang? What was there before? If there was cosmic gasses, particles, etc, they had to have come from something. What? Was there a Big Bang before the Big Bang? If the universe is expanding since the big bang, then it is finite. So, what is beyond the stars and particles from the Big Bang? Boggles the mind.
People who are satisfied with the exoteric never ponder this. "It is not meant to be known." they say.
And then some troublemaker says,"Why not?"

sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2010, 01:29 PM
in the Kabballah, it is thought that God, being pure existance/conciousness was concious of its own existance, thus,required a "vessel" or substance to express itself in, hense matter was formed in the universe.
Jewish mystics, Kabballists, in fact most mystics, are the few that actually ponder the existance and reasons as well as manifestations of God, where most others simply go about their lives, focusing on pleasure and guilt.
Thisis the difference between the exoteric-most people, and the esoteric-the mystics/spiritualists.
Kind of like pondering, what happened before the Big Bang? What was there before? If there was cosmic gasses, particles, etc, they had to have come from something. What? Was there a Big Bang before the Big Bang? If the universe is expanding since the big bang, then it is finite. So, what is beyond the stars and particles from the Big Bang? Boggles the mind.
People who are satisfied with the exoteric never ponder this. "It is not meant to be known." they say.
And then some troublemaker says,"Why not?"

Well said Capt. Kosher.

hskwarrior
01-07-2010, 01:31 PM
well call me a trouble maker......i'll say i'm trying to fully understand it completely.

I know that once we all get to heaven, most of us will be like "i'll be ****ed! :eek: "

I'll be the one who says......"how do i go an contact my loved ones on earth....i want to scare a few people" LOL.

Does the kabballah tell of dinosaurs and cavemen?

hskwarrior
01-07-2010, 01:34 PM
and yes.....with something like the universe, with no beginning nor an end....literally SCARES the beejeebus out of me

sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2010, 01:35 PM
Frank, outside of the extremists in most religions, most people recognize that there are many paths to God ( if you believe in a God), its only the organized religions that have something to gain by membership numbers that pander the "we have the truth" BS.
If there is a God then he is omniscient and as such, HE KNOWS, period.
Many people need to feel special or need a crutch in life and for some organized religion fills that need.

David Jamieson
01-07-2010, 01:36 PM
Frank, outside of the extremists in most religions, most people recognize that there are many paths to God ( if you believe in a God), its only the organized religions that have something to gain by membership numbers that pander the "we have the truth" BS.
If there is a God then he is omniscient and as such, HE KNOWS, period.
Many people need to feel special or need a crutch in life and for some organized religion fills that need.

YOu are going to burn in hell for that! :mad: :p

hskwarrior
01-07-2010, 01:39 PM
Frank, outside of the extremists in most religions, most people recognize that there are many paths to God ( if you believe in a God), its only the organized religions that have something to gain by membership numbers that pander the "we have the truth" BS.
If there is a God then he is omniscient and as such, HE KNOWS, period.
Many people need to feel special or need a crutch in life and for some organized religion fills that need.

i see what you're saying. All i'm saying is O.R. is NOT for me. However, GOD is something i feel strongly about. After being away from him, i can enter a church and be instantly brought to tears.

TenTigers
01-07-2010, 01:48 PM
Does the kabballah tell of dinosaurs and cavemen?
nope-but we didn't have the technology back then. If we did, there would be a much longer version of Genesis.
It does make one question however..I mean, while they were doing all the digging for the foundations to the pyramids and their temples, etc. I'm sure they must've unearthed some fossils, and remains of earlier civilizations and life. I wonder why they didn't ponder that.
Then again, they might not have realized how old a fossil was.

TenTigers
01-07-2010, 01:50 PM
i i can enter a church and be instantly brought to tears.
yeah, it's all that frankinsence and myhrr incense. Burns the eyes, don't it?

sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2010, 01:50 PM
YOu are going to burn in hell for that! :mad: :p

hell doesn't want me, something about "taking over...blah blah, hitting on all the female demons...blah, blah...***** too big..."

sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2010, 01:51 PM
yeah, it's all that frankinsence and myhrr incense. Burns the eyes, don't it?

That and when they throw holy water in your face screaming "he's here, he's here !!"

TenTigers
01-07-2010, 01:51 PM
hell doesn't want me, something about "taking over...blah blah, hitting on all the female demons...blah, blah...***** too big..."
you'd be so busy shaking hands and going over old times with all yuor friends, you'd miss the orientation meeting.

sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2010, 01:52 PM
you'd be so busy shaking hands and going over old times with all yuor friends, you'd miss the orientation meeting.

*rimshot*



i see what you're saying. All i'm saying is O.R. is NOT for me. However, GOD is something i feel strongly about. After being away from him, i can enter a church and be instantly brought to tears.

I hear you Frank, I feel the same way.

TenTigers
01-07-2010, 01:53 PM
Mr. Bub:"Paul, PAUL! Will you just stop for a minute, and get back in line, we're trying to organize your group here."
Sanjuro: "Yeah, be with ya in a minute. Ok, so I sez.."

hskwarrior
01-07-2010, 01:54 PM
lmfao.....

sanjuro_ronin
01-07-2010, 01:55 PM
Mr. Bub:"Paul, PAUL! Will you just stop for a minute, and get back in line, we're trying to organize your group here."
Sanjuro: "Yeah, be with ya in a minute. Ok, so I sez.."

Ah, so you were there too I see.
:D

Kpower
01-16-2010, 08:42 PM
If someone could prove to me that there is a god then I still would not worship him. I can't imagine that a being who is powerful enough to create an entire universe would want my worship. Imagine you were god for a second. You are sitting in a void...alone.... for eternity. There is no one like you to talk with and nothing to do really. Pretty boring huh? Creating someone exactly like you to talk to would be no fun because you would know what they were thinking and what they would say and do. So why not create something that will produce unpredictable results and possibly out of that creation you might eventually get someone worth hanging out with.

So he creates the universe hoping that life will evolve to a level where he can interact with it. Meanwhile he can watch the universe unfold and pass the time.

Religion is for the most part just another excuse for people to feel better than others. People want to belong and feel special. They like to think they have the answers and give their life meaning. Until we can leave the pettiness and ugliness of human nature behind we will not find god. I don't think its as easy as just believing in something, being sorry or giving your life over to an idea.

Why would god give us free will if he wanted us to abandon it and subvert it to his will? That's illogical. Free will is the means by which the universe becomes unpredictable. Scientists can create computer models of the big bang that will approximate everything that happened and create universe models similar to ours. This means that the physical aspects of the universe can be predicted if enough facts are known. Anyone who has ever lived with a woman can tell you that humans are entirely unpredictable though.

I honor god through the use of my free will and as I encounter choices I endeavor to set aside the pettiness that comes from being human and make the right choice. Even if I fail and succumb to human nature I learn from it so that the next time I am faced with a similar choice I might be stronger.

If I were to meet the creator I would thank him for this opportunity but I would not bow down to him. If he throws me into the fires of eternal ****ation for not bowing down to him then I will spend eternity knowing that I made the right choice. An omnipotent, omniscient being of pure love would not do that to me.
Could you condemn someone to eternal torture in the flames of hell with no chance of getting out? I know I couldn't, not even my worst enemy. It has always been interesting to me that people assign god even less charity than the average human would have and he is supposed to be our example.

In short I think the purpose of the universe is develop life and awareness. The purpose of life is to transcend the universe and become god-like.

kfman5F
01-16-2010, 11:33 PM
Well said. :)

David Jamieson
01-17-2010, 03:40 PM
Well said. :)

Really?

personally I don't know at which end to start to address that...so I'm not gonna bother instead! :p

Baritsumaster
01-21-2010, 12:26 PM
Before this thread went into religious discussions, someone asked if there are any Hung books available.
Ther are two. The first is Thian Ti Hwui, The Hung League by Gustaav Schlegel. It's available to download for free in Google Books.

The second book is The Hung Society, or The Society of Heaven and Earth, by J.
S. M. Ward. Both are Victorian books. The second is more difficult to lay hands on, though Amazon sometimes has it.

I have been unable to find mention of Hung signals in forms, but then both were written by Europeans and nonmembers.
Good luck with your search. It's amazing how much of our schools traditions are still mostly oral.

hskwarrior
01-21-2010, 01:44 PM
Thanks, i have all those books.

hskwarrior
01-21-2010, 02:10 PM
Triad societies: western accounts of the history, sociology and linguistics ...
By Kingsley Bolton, Christopher Hutton

hskwarrior
01-21-2010, 03:16 PM
I have been unable to find mention of Hung signals in forms, but then both were written by Europeans and nonmembers.

as is already known, HUNG MUN based schools of old would never reveal to an outsider these signals. Its part of the oath we take about not disclosing our information to outsiders. On the other side of the coin, the signals were SECRET messages.....so of course they would be passed down orally.

However, as it happens now, it happened then....the Hung Mun would allow select few who they trusted into their society where they would learn the secrets. in fact its soooo secret that its more likely that outsiders would know more about the hung mun than actual members.

Baritsumaster
01-23-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm glad, HSKwarrior, that there is someone else doing my research ahead of me.
Do you have FREEMASONRY IN CHINA by G. Giles? I've only heard of it.

hskwarrior
01-23-2010, 03:07 PM
I'd have to go back and re-read what I have to know. I'll do a quick search on it and see if i have. As many on this forum know, I've stood by my claims about our gung fu founder in fut san and his teacher Ching Cho. I actually love research incredibly, that's strange since i didn't give a **** about high school.

In fact, i've just found something else on the actual use of the name 洪胜 (our original name) that stems directly from the Heaven Earth & Man Society. It said in the mountains of Guangxie under the Tien Ti Hui (天地会) that there were more than 100 tongs. one of them was the 洪胜堂 (Hung Victory Hall). It also stated that the word "胜" (victory) was strongly used by 60 of them. Some of the other tongs (halls) that used the word Victory was Permanent Victory Hall, Righteous Victory Hall, Triumphant Victory and so forth.

Jeung Hung Sing (洪胜) was deeply connected to the Hung Society, and this basically supports the claim that our name came from the Hung Mun co-founder Ching Cho.

hskwarrior
01-23-2010, 06:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVX-uCJkGM

hskwarrior
01-23-2010, 11:09 PM
hey bro...have u read this?
http://www.historycooperative.org/proceedings/interactions/karpiel.html

Some interesting information on Freemasons in China.

Baritsumaster
01-25-2010, 12:29 PM
As one of my upcoming novels will discuss the Hawaiian monarchy, I thank you for the tip.

hskwarrior
01-25-2010, 01:19 PM
http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/china.html

an except........


Again, in the same book, the "Shu-King," the most ancient work in China, I find the magistrates spoken of as the " Chunjên," literally the level men, the level being the emblem of their authority and the type of the conduct looked for from them.
Further, I find in one of the most ancient of the documents of which this work is a collection, the three chief officers of State in whose hand the supreme direction lay, spoken of as the "San Chai"—the three houses or builders ; in other words, the three grand masters, to whom the management of the Grand Lodge was then entrusted.
There is, too, reason for thinking that the character by which the root or source of things is represented, "hên," that which China’s sages tell us is the most important of all our duties to attend to, is a hieroglyphic picture of the skillet, an emblem held by masons in high respect.
And, finally, not to multiply instances, I find one of the most ancient names by which the Deity is spoken of in China is that of the First Builder, or as masons say, the Great Architect of the Universe.

hskwarrior
01-25-2010, 01:31 PM
http://www.umsoi.com/english/freemasonry-in-china/


Since immemorial time, China has always been a mystery in the eyes of Westerners. This is especially so with regard to Freemasonry. Masonic scholars are already rare anywhere in the world and Masonic scholars in China are virtually non-existent.

This paper traces how Freemasonry was introduced into Imperial China by various Constitutions in the Quig Dynasty, how it developed at the time and how it survived two World Wars and the political changes in China.

It is fascinating to see how the Grand Lodge of China was constituted in Shanghai, and then moved to Taiwan, how Freemasonry developed in Macau, how Freemasonry flourished in Hong Kong and finally how Hong Kong has become not only the Masonic hub of the Far East, but also the Masonic pillar in the People’s Republic of China under the “One Country Two Systems” principle.

Since immemorial time, China has always been a mystery in the eyes of Westerners. This is especially so with regard to Freemasonry. Masonic scholars are already rare anywhere in the world and Masonic scholars in China are virtually non-existent.

This paper traces how Freemasonry was introduced into Imperial China by various Constitutions in the Quig Dynasty, how it developed at the time and how it survived two World Wars and the political changes in China.

It is fascinating to see how the Grand Lodge of China was constituted in Shanghai, and then moved to Taiwan, how Freemasonry developed in Macau, how Freemasonry flourished in Hong Kong and finally how Hong Kong has become not only the Masonic hub of the Far East, but also the Masonic pillar in the People’s Republic of China under the “One Country Two Systems” principle.

hskwarrior
01-25-2010, 01:47 PM
http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/square-and-compasses.html



1880: Excerpt from a speech delivered by Brother Herbert A. Geles, Worshipful Master of Ionic Lodge No. 1781, at Amoy, entitled "Freemasonry in China"

"From time immemorial, we find the Square and Compasses used by Chinese writers to symbolize precisely the same phases of moral conduct as in our system of Freemasonry. The earliest passage known to me (Albert Mackey) which bears upon the subject is to be found in the Book of History, embracing the period reaching from the 24th to the 7th century before Christ. It is there, in an account of a military expedition, that we read:

"Ye officers of government, apply the Compasses!"

In another part of the same records, a Magistrate (judge) is spoken of as:

"A man of the level, or the level man."


Read more: http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/square-and-compasses.html#ixzz0deRa3Zyj