Let the flaming begin

[WoodenYummy]

OK, I am NOT an advocate of MMA, but I wanted to know if anyone has ever seen the often-touted tan-sao/punch combo that blocks and attacks at the same time used in any pro-fight? K-1, UFC, etc, has anyone ever seen this technique used anywhere by any pro-fighter? I know there was a famous boxer who used it back in the 90's, but it was suggested he was cheating when he did this. Just curious, if its soo effective, why don't we see it more often, in other traditions... This is NOT a "if Wing Chun is so good, how come you never see it in MMA" thread.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/merkinsniffs/Flaming.png

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/2/4/633693788869866360-flamer.jpg

[couch]

OK, I am NOT an advocate of MMA, but I wanted to know if anyone has ever seen the often-touted tan-sao/punch combo that blocks and attacks at the same time used in any pro-fight? K-1, UFC, etc, has anyone ever seen this technique used anywhere by any pro-fighter? I know there was a famous boxer who used it back in the 90's, but it was suggested he was cheating when he did this. Just curious, if its soo effective, why don't we see it more often, in other traditions... This is NOT a "if Wing Chun is so good, how come you never see it in MMA" thread.

Why do you care if it's every been used in a pro fight? What does a pro fight have to do with YOUR life experience and how YOU use Wing Chun?

[WoodenYummy]

Exactly Couch, WHO said it has ANYTHING to do with my wing chun training? It was a question, asked to the proponents of this art, thats ALL that it was. And by the way Sanjuro, you look much better than I imagined anyone could in that tight lime-green speedo-suit. ;)

[sihing]

Why do you care if it's every been used in a pro fight? What does a pro fight have to do with YOUR life experience and how YOU use Wing Chun?

Exactly right Kenton:D If you looking for proof from outside of yourself, regarding a belief or faith that you have, you will never find it. The better question is, why are you looking for it outside of yourself. Let's say we can't find any pro fighter that has used anything like a tan/punch combo, does that mean it is a useless thing to use? If you look at it in that limited way then I guess so. The key thing is to not have a limited POV, and do not let anyone tell you what is absolutely right or absolutely wrong, because there are no absolutes in life, in combat, in anything except death, taxes and corruption in public service.

JR

[sanjuro_ronin]

Exactly Couch, WHO said it has ANYTHING to do with my wing chun training? It was a question, asked to the proponents of this art, thats ALL that it was. And by the way Sanjuro, you look much better than I imagined anyone could in that tight lime-green speedo-suit. ;)

I've been doing internal WC forms work !
:D

[WoodenYummy]

Sihing, normally I find your posts informative, but you are guilty of the same error as Couch, ASSUMING that this has something to do with MY faith in the system. And as for the "better question", again more condescending remarks from those who know better than I, what "I" should be doing. And the icing on the cake? The line "The key thing is to not have a limited POV, and do not let anyone tell you what is absolutely right or absolutely wrong". I may not be able to define irony, but I sure know it when I see it! lol. How is that last comment not a complete contradiction of the first? I am asking a really simple question, but apparently WC is practiced by alot of armchair psychologists these days! All I want to know is if anyone has ever seen it used, as I mentioned there was a boxer (name started with a V I think) in the 90's who used it, so I was wondering if anyone had seen it in any other televised fights. I foolishly thought that I could avoid watching EVERY video of a fight ever made to determine this for my own by simply asking other people who are into this sort of thing. I have never made any comment to the effect that if something has not been used in a Pro-fight that it must somehow be useless. But thanks for the quick psycho-analysis just the same. Sanjuro, right on, I knew that internal training served a useful purpose! LMFAO

[couch]

All I want to know is if anyone has ever seen it used, as I mentioned there was a boxer (name started with a V I think) in the 90's who used it, so I was wondering if anyone had seen it in any other televised fights. I foolishly thought that I could avoid watching EVERY video of a fight ever made to determine this for my own by simply asking other people who are into this sort of thing.

That's NOT what you asked in the first place.

And to put "Let the flaming begin" as well as "I am not an advocate of MMA" in your posts leads me to believe you were after something completely different than what you wrote in the quoted text above.

So, in my opinion, you should take what you wrote in the above quoted text and paste it into your initial post so that EVERYONE has a clear view as to what you're after.

[WoodenYummy]

But Couch, this is my original post "OK, I am NOT an advocate of MMA, but I wanted to know if anyone has ever seen the often-touted tan-sao/punch combo that blocks and attacks at the same time used in any pro-fight?" From there on, those of you that are responding like this are reading what YOU want into it. I have been posting here for over a year, and NEVER ONCE made the arguments about why Wing Chun is not represented in MMA, I don't care about MMA, I don't study MMA, I study Wing Chun. I know there are alot of trolls on this site, but I am not one of them, so I apologize if I did not word this the "correct" way, but my question remains the same, and NO there is no ulterior motive here! I specifically stated (the FIRST thing I stated for that matter was) that I am NOT an advocate of MMA. I don't know how I could've been more clear, so I take my apology back!

[WoodenYummy]

Couch, did you really just write that blog on your page in response to this thread? Fine for addressing the point, but completely mis represented where I was coming from. This happened the first time I ever posted here, I said I studied "traditional" WC (cause thats what my old school called it) then I proceeded to get attacked by a bunch of clowns on here because of what they "read into" my statements. This is being made out to be MUCH more sinisiter than the innocent question it actually WAS! Which by the way, NO ONE has answered.

Honestly, I think the "better question" is: why is this the type of response I am getting when I ask if anyone has every seen X used in a fight. I think that may be a bit more telling about others "faith" and "beliefs" then my orignal post. You guys should consider running for office with answers like this.

[anerlich]

I don't recall seeing this combo used in boxing or MMA matches, though to be honest I don't watch much of either.

IMO parries correlating (to varying degrees) to larp and pak sao are more common.

IMO, and generalising, boxing relies more on closer covers with the arms only extending for straight punches. Rather than "block and strike at the same time", boxing is more about "evade and punch at the same time".

In wrestling/MMA you are not looking to give opponents too much of your arms either lest you be over/underhooked, 2 on 1 ed, etc.

If you title a thread "let the flaming begin" and you start getting flamed, it's probably disingenuous to start getting all upset about it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Very over-rated move, anyway. Simultaneous block & strike with lop, or with pak, or with garn is more high percentage - and even these moves have their limitations. You won't hit them very often. But tan da?! Not really high percentage in all out fighting.

So tell us, if you're not trolling with a flame in hand, who is the boxer who made this technique so big in the 1990's?

And sanjuro, ouch....!!! :rolleyes: :o :cool:

After all those hot babes you've posted photos of - you go with this?! :eek:

[couch]

Couch, did you really just write that blog on your page in response to this thread? Fine for addressing the point, but completely mis represented where I was coming from. This happened the first time I ever posted here, I said I studied "traditional" WC (cause thats what my old school called it) then I proceeded to get attacked by a bunch of clowns on here because of what they "read into" my statements. This is being made out to be MUCH more sinisiter than the innocent question it actually WAS!

If you write an article or book, you are responsible for getting your point across properly in the first place. You can't go back after writing an article and say, "You guys are reading into things too much!" It was you who misrepresented yourself.

At least this thread was good for something - it inspired me to write an article on the blog.

Either way - it all works out. Good luck with your search for the Tan Da boxer.

[WoodenYummy]

Oh Anerlich, not you too! OK, so I'm not making many friends today. I labeled this thread that way cause I knew before I even typed a single word that a bunch of people would get all bunched up over this. But I'm not that fond of caring what others think, so be it. The Boxer I mentioned was really famous, I think he had a brother who fought too with the same last name, it's not Vargas is it? Anyway, it was someone with a V, and yeah, he would throw his jab at the same time the other arm was up blocking an incoming strike. I swear it was on the cover of an SI issue or something. Not exactly the same, but a similar concept. I'm not upset for getting flamed, I saw it coming (as the title implied), but I was bothered that no one offered up an answer (until now, so thanks). I agree there are different games being played in boxing and MMA, are you suggesting that it isn't a good fit for an MMA encounter? IF this is what you are saying, is it fair to assume that we woudn't want to commit two arms in that scenario as the other guy may go for a takedown? What is the reasoning? I'm trying NOT to read anything into your comments, so I am simply asking.

Sometimes, the people on this forum are so predictable, though it may not be their own fault. You see a person's initial question, and before reading any of the comments you can guess which direction its going FAST! Now I'm not ripping on anyone, as I have read alot of insightful comments on here in the past (and a few funny ones). It just comes across as really clique-ish whenever someone uses the wrong word and everyone jumps on them, its like if you don't know the secret handshake everyone knows you're an imposter and attacks. Well thanks just the same for all of your input.... Oh yeah, and if anyone DOES come across a clip of someone using this let me know, for my own personal interest of course. Thanks!

[Wu Wei Wu]

I think it was a valid first question.

And no, I have never seen tan da applied in K1, UFC, Bellator, WEC, Sengoku etc etc. Probably, because tan da doesn't work. I think the same can be said of most WC techniques, the way they are sold to the masses at least.

If they worked, we would have seen them. Additionally, we would see them being taught in progressive MMA schools.

Suki

***n.b. the context I refer to is one where you have a reasonably skilled opponent.

[WoodenYummy]

Victor, "flame in hand" that sounds dirty! I don't remember his name, but I definately remember seeing it (it WASN'T a hallucination), I wish I could remember it (college years are a haze), all I know for sure is that he is from a family of boxers, either his cousins or brothers also fought (and were famous). The more I think of it, the more I wanna say it IS one of the Vargas'... Anyway, THEY weren't my point, I was just illustrating that I have seen it at least once before, and I was hoping to hear of a few others. I see the point about the other block/attacks having better likelihood in reality though. Couch, I agree, only I wasn't writing an article OR book, I posted a question on a webpage, HARDLY the same criteria... and regardless I still stand by my initial wording. BTW, I read your blog, and if nothing else, this farse I seem to have created might lead to some further discussion there, so good for you! I have no animosity toward any of you, but sitting back and watching this occur is a bit comical, we've "fallen" into the politics of wing chun, even though that was the furthest thing from my mind when we started. So who is known to use these other block/attack combos mentioned in televised fights? I'm just curious as I'd like to see it for myself, and see in what situations they try to pull it off. There, was that acceptably worded?

[Wu Wei Wu]

FWIW, there is a rebuttal of Couch's MMA post on the blog (link below).

Suki

[HumbleWCGuy]

Tan dar is used all of the time in boxing. Wingchunners are notorious for not training like they fight so you will see something that is more aesthetic than functional. Look hard and you will find it.

[Lee Chiang Po]

In reality, you will not likely ever see this move in any professional fight. Not in the Proper sense of the term. Everything has it's place and use. Tan da, or tan and punch simultaniously is usually an opening move. When professionals fight, a referee calls them from their corners to the middle of the ring to fight. Both fighters are looking dead at one another, and are in full expectation of anything you might try to do. Both men are in defensive postures, and any time you assault a defended position you are at a disadvantage. They attack one another back and forth repeatedly until one gets in a luck punch or decided to sneak in under for a take down. This is professional fighting as such today. And boxers are no different. They absorb a punch on the gloves and shoulder and return the punch while they have an opening. A tan would not work in this case. Any style or system of fighting is designed really for fighting itself. The same style or system. It can be adapted to fight other styles or systems, but the other fighting style might not require the same moves and techniques, and they just might not be effective if you did use them. I have used tan, and I find it very effective. I would always attempt to return a punch at the same time, putting me to an advantage over a suddenly stunned oponent. This is the whole idea.
Most systems are no different from WC in that they suffer the same against other styles. We see people fighting in the ring today that are billed as black belts in lots of different fighting styles, but you never see it in the fight. Now and then one might do some fancy kick, but that will be the extent. It ends up all looking the same. The only reason we might train in a particular martial art is to give ourselves a bit of advantage over others in a fight. There are no garantees however, and you just might get your a$$ kicked by a sissy or a girl. Real fighting is a frame of mind along with fighting heart and strength. No matter what some people might study, they are still subject to get that a$$ kicked. Likewise, some people can fight and win no matter what they study. Just comparing a style of fighting against other styles is no way to determine it's use. You have to consider who the fighter is. When the fight breaks out, a lot changes quickly. The way you fight changes after the opening exchange.

LCP

[anerlich]

I agree there are different games being played in boxing and MMA, are you suggesting that it isn't a good fit for an MMA encounter? IF this is what you are saying, is it fair to assume that we woudn't want to commit two arms in that scenario as the other guy may go for a takedown? What is the reasoning? I'm trying NOT to read anything into your comments, so I am simply asking.

If both your arms are high and extended, that does open you up a bit for a shoot. I was thinking more that if your arms are half extended and elbows away from the body that allows a wrestler to tie up and get inside your striking range with good standing controls. You WC skills may be good and you fast, but a wrestler has his own version of chi sao called handfighting and he may have good skills at this range.

That said, good WC doesn't have to give the wrestler those opportunities, though only working out with wrestlers would develop those skills IMO.

Even something as fundamental to WC as "rooting" (a term which, as an Aussie, I dislike) can cause you problems in MMA as a grounded stance of any sort can give away an opportunity for a takedown.

FWIW and IMO, there are still comparatively few MMA guys that have good compbination skills and can strike, clinch, takedown, groundfight and defend against all of those done by top level opponents effectively. MMA is different enough from both pure striking and pure grappling to deserve a completely separate approach.

Disclaimer: I've done WC for decades and have a purple belt in BJJ, but I've not fought MMA (and since I'm 55 in a few weeks am unlikely to ever), though I trained in it technically for a couple of years. I stopped MMA training because my interests lie elsewhere right now.

I don't think your initial post was a stupid question by any means.

I guess the point is, if it worked well in boxing or MMA, we'd see it more often.

[grasshopper 2.0]

Sorry guy for having to get beatin up by the folks here. I think tan da is fairly useless in the context of applying exactly tan sao and a punch as we see it in pictures or in the classroom or whatever. i think it's only good for drill training and to give some idea to the student of how tan sao can be applied FOR TRAINING PURPOSES (you know, like giving some meaning to move x or y in a kata so that it helps the student get a general feel of what they're supposed to do, but really one wouldn't apply move x or y like that), but to actually tan da someone, especially someone of an MMA background would be pretty silly. as silly as lop da, bong da, etc.

To me, tan da, as a drill, would teach the student the idea of tan sao, the sinking, sticking, etc. the punch would give the idea of simultaneous attack and to not leave that hand free and doing nothing. also to follow the principles of going forward, with both tan sao and punch, etc. in other words, it's a great training drill.

But as a means of application, you're asking for trouble. you better hope that the "da" knocks out the guy with that one shot. outside the setting of other fellow wing chunners in your school, i don't think many punches would require you to use tan sao anyway..direction/momentum/pressure all where tan sao would not be needed. The stimulus for tan sao is very specific.

if there are any instances of where tan da was applied successfully in the context you're inquiring about, it was just a snap shot in time of what may have looked like a tan-da but had no intention of being tan-da when it happened.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

It's too bad, I find the emphasis on a punch to the chest/head to limit the mind's view of the drill and its application. To me, Tan Da is "Deflect AND..." whatever. It's Tan + Man sao in the form of a punch, b1tchslap, bearpalm, biu (really? biu?), uppercut to the ribs, elbow, shot to the leg... and then move on to the next thing, whether it's defensive or offensive. And then move on to the next thing.

"Ready... Go!... ... and... and... and... FINISH! ...Ready..."

To me, Wing Chun is getting from "go" to "finish" in as few "ands" as possible.

[Paul T England]

All you are doing with a tan da (as I train it) is covering while striking.....I am sure this happens lots in mma.

It goes back to the bruce lee and finger pointing at the moon.....people naturally focus on the tan rather than the punch.

The focus is on the punch (jab, cross or whatever) the tan, biu, pak, gaan etc are there to minimise the opponents strike....I teach this first class to my students.....

any coach will keep teling students to keep their hands up...that what you do with your tan, pak, bui......

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[WoodenYummy]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone, I think I did get the wrong impression of the utility of the Tan-Da. I am still looking to find that boxer I mentioned, I'll post the pic if I find it, and it didn't become famous, he may have only done it in this one fight, but I remember the commentators claiming it was "cheating" and they claimed he was trying to trap/catch the other guy's hands. Anyway, I am sure he didn't have the tan-da intent, but it was similar motion, and he used it effectively. Glad I finally got something productive out of this post. Happy turkey day all!

[couch]

Happy turkey day all!

Happy US Turkey Day!

[k gledhill]

tan is a strike in drills
the turning tan and jum strike [not tan da] is a drill for facing..as you retract the previous extended arm back to 'elbow in' prior to striking again...
tan doesnt leave the center line in the same tan shape/angle, or standing turning to block incoming from a basic stance in front of people....sorry, its a common mistake. Many are taught to use it to leave the line and chase punches like a 'block' from karate, trying to make it simultaneous by striking with the other hand = 2 extended arms fighting one ...

SLT = make a line to strike on [strike line] then punch with elbows along the 'strikeline', wrist xing slightly to create a natural intersecting line...
then train elbow positions slowly= tan,fok, jum, vu....repeat 3 times each arm......why repeat tan fok jum so much ? what no jum ?

then do dan chi-sao DRILL , when tan strikes the tan 'elbow' moves/spreads off line as the fist extends on the strike line, using the elbow spreading off the strikeline to displace arms in its way/angle.
Jum is the counter strike in the DRILL to develop the jumstrikes ability to NOT be moved offline, opening up your center.....and using the inward elbow and simultaneous forward fist strike in unisong with the tans elbow forceing itself outwrds..

inwards outwards, inwards outwards, or vice versa...2 strikes each doing 2 actions per beat=
economy of motion, simultaneous strike defelection, while angling and moving using tactcial ideas and attacking concepts.

tan versus jum energy...in a drill for fighting later with 2 free cycling strikes...not for fighting in chi-sao drills ..

fok is just an elbow 'time-out' relaxed, in a DRILL when your not doing tan or jum in ther DRILL....

simple really...only took me 20 years to figure out ..hah!

flame on...:D

[chusauli]

If you see an inside strike (or a straight punch to the inner gate) that is Tan Sao. A chained strike is Tan Da. Tan Da is just an example, a frozen moment in time. Strikes are WCK, Tan, Bong and Fuk are partial extensions of strike.

I completely agree with Kevin.

[Yoshiyahu]

One can use Tan Da, Pak Da and Bil Da as a defensive technique. But I for one love to use it as an offensive entry technique. I Pak Da or Tan Da my opponents guards, punch or grabbing arm as I move to a flank or inside. Using it offensively gives you advantage because you are taking the fight to them. To use it defensively you have await the opponents attack. Patience is a great thing.