For Xiao3Meng4

[Hardwork108]

I wish the moderator had noticed that there was a kung fu discussion going on between Xiao3 Meng4 and myself, before closing the "I think forms suck" thread in the Southern Forum!


I just wanted to respond and continue our discussion as it is an actual TCMA discussion with many interesting points.


Something to remember with that example is that although chimps have bigger, stronger joints and smaller muscles than humans, they are in peak health, they are MUSCULAR, and they have mass - adults can weigh 150+lbs.

Mass is an important factor no matter how you're training. Some Martial Artists like to keep their mass around their Dan Tian ( ;) ); as long as they have strong joints, good structure, and smart tactics, then they should be ok against most people. I prefer to distribute mass as muscle: muscle is healthier metabolically, and a certain degree of muscularity complements and enhances the joints' capabilities... and there are no fat chimps.
You must remember that chimps are muscular not because of weightlifting but because of their NATURAL day to day activity combined with their natural body make up. Even in captivity where these animals don't get their usual exercise (unless our friend Frost slips into their cage to give them personal Olympic weight training classes....whoops sorry :() a full grown chimp can still destroy a human being.

However, looking at humans one can see that our day to day activities do not give us comparable abilities to chimps. The modern life style can take some blame for this but, we have too much body tension, we don't breath properly and lack body unity. Blindly adding weight training to this equasion is not going to help the matter either.

The internal training attempts to firstly adjust those factors before going any deeper through a specific and apparently not so well understood methodology.

So what is the "secret" of chimps? IMHO, it is their relaxed and unified body movements. I.e. Their body structure is unified and linked. Their natural strength will help of course. However, IMHO, it is still relaxed and flowing strength. Look at chimps doing any activity and you will see this.



I disagree. This forum is a perfect place to discuss training risks/benefits.
LOL, You are kidding right?

Iĺl probably get more relevant input if I discuss this with chimps than a lot of the "experts" here, after all, the chimps have their strength, body unity and relaxed movements without a day's weight lifting in their "curriculum". Hence they will know what I am talking about....LOL.

Seriously, some of this stuff is not talked about in detail outside the school. I am sure that you appreciate that we are not discussing kickboxing here and that there are aspects in your own TCMA training that you do not discuss publicly.



In what way? Is there a concern that training specific muscles (such as the biceps) in isolation will detract from functional unity?
There is.


Modern athletic training has addressed this issue by making as much of the training as FUNCTIONAL as possible. That is, muscles are not trained in isolation: they are trained together in as close to an environment and situation as the real thing. Modern athletic training is much different than it used to be. Today it can include joint realignment and strengthening, core realignment and strengthening, Nervous system refinement, nutrition, functional plyometrics, functional weight training, stretching/relaxation, play practice, visualization, counselling, and rest.
IMHO, I get all of the above and much more from my internal training. Furthermore, modern athletic training are unaware of the deeper and unusual TCMA training principles.




Everyone gets ideas.

Those who know or have at least a valid point of reference will get RELEVANT ideas.;)




Most of the people I discuss with on here train Kung Fu. I enjoy discussing with them, as well as with non-kung fu people.
I would respectfully disagree and make the correction saying that most people here ARE non-kung fu people, no matter what they say in their profiles or what they believe they have been practicing for the last zillion years. Of course, that does not say that a conversation with them won't turn out "interesting"...Lol.



Seriously, you should start a thread specifically about sinew/tendon changing methods, what kinds there are, and who practices them. The one I know is actually a Daoist Yi Jin Jing method called "Heavy Hands."
I am not qualified to start such a thread. My knowledge is limited to what I practice in my level of practice and even some of that stuff is not to be discussed publicly, anyway. So, I do have some material but not enough to start a thread.




travelling/moving wreaks havoc on traditional martial arts training.

I can appreciate that as I have been through that too but some people (not talking about you) promote cross training and its "eternal" benefits and inform us that even the Pope cross trains. Then when they are shown valid weaknesses of this approach in relation to understanding deep TCMA principles, they turn around and tell you, "Oh, it was because of traveling/moving, but I still know everything", LOL



I'm sure this happens. I'm also sure that there are traditionalists who may chase away posters by behaving similarly to what you say above. On the list of first impressions, Physical skill is often trumped by Communications skill.
I have yet to see a Traditionalist chase away an MMA-ist or cross trainer from this forum (LOL), even though this is mainly a Kung Fu forum, which should kind of give priority to the TCMA methodology in favor of the MMA/cross trainers. LOL



Ego or not, I recommend EVERYONE gets counselling (I did.)

I don't believe that it is a question of counselling. Besides, I really believe that there are a few here who are beyond any therapy.

It is more a question of morals and dignity that comes with a decent up bringing. If you don't get that up to a certain age then I don't believe that counselling is going to be of much help.


And trains hard. And keeps an open mind. And respects others. Everyone.
My mind is more open than you think. I train as hard as I am able to depending on my life style etc.

As far as respect goes, then sometimes I find it hard to respect ignorance based on arrogance and arrogance based on ignorance. Others in the "I think forms are useless" thread may say the same about me but most of them will do so through their own insecurity which is literally "written" all over that very thread!


To be fair, you all weren't being very clear. Maybe there was too much defensiveness and aggression on everyone's part.
I disagree. They knew what I was trying to say. They knew it before I had said it as this started in the "dynamic tension in forms" thread in the Southern forum. The subject was brought up by "David" who is a Chow Gar practitioner. Go there and see how he was treated by the clueless majority here.


My grandmother died of Alzheimers. About 2 years before she died, she entered a phase of the disease which gave her a rare type of aphasia. She could speak clearly, she just didn't "make sense." The nurses and my family thought she had completely lost touch with reality. Turns out, she knew exactly what she meant, she just couldn't say it.
"I'm a double agent," she proudly exclaimed one day.
"Oh really," I said.
"Yes," she said proudly, "In the morning, the Catholics are everywhere, so I pretend to be a Catholic and work for the Catholics. Then in the afternoon they leave and the Protestants come in and I pretend to be a Protestant, and work for them! BUT, I tell them what the Catholics are up to, and then the next day I tell the Catholics what the Protestants are up to! I'm a double agent!"

"Uh-huh," I said. Then it dawned on me. She was talking about the nurses shifts.

Sometimes, instead of just dismissing someone as crazy, ignorant, or lacking in knowledge, take a moment to ask yourself how what they're saying COULD constructively benefit the discussion, and ask yourself how what you say possibly COULD be interpreted by others. Clear comprehension and clear communication work together.

I have repeated the same relatively simple statement (even if the concept is complicated) more than a dozen times. Clarifying myself further every time. Now look at some of the other posts directed at me to see their level of "clear comprehension and clear communication", remembering that at least one of these posters is referred to as "sifu",Lol. Again, you couldn't make this stuff up! Lol.

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

I apologize for locking that thread, I didn't want it to degenerate any further with personal attacks.

Although, this speaks volumes:

I am not qualified to start such a thread. My knowledge is limited to what I practice in my level of practice and even some of that stuff is not to be discussed publicly, anyway. So, I do have some material but not enough to start a thread.

[Hardwork108]

I apologize for locking that thread, I didn't want it to degenerate any further with personal attacks.
Then you should have warned Lkfmdc, the "sifu" and Frost, our resident Olympic weigh training gold medalist.


Although, this speaks volumes:

Yes it does, ironically about both of our characters- not to mention the other "kung fu" champions of this forum.

The manner in which some of you guys mock honesty and modesty is very revealing about your own lack of that same quality!

That statement was an honest statement about my ability being limited to discussing aspects of tendon training that are unfamiliar to me. I know that being clueless about a given TCMA subject area never stopped most of you cross trainers and MMA-ists discussing, criticizing and ridiculing it, but then Jack of All Trades will be jack of all trades. LOl,lol,lol.

So again, that statement was an honest reference to the limits of my knowledge regarding tendon changing methodology (which is evidently still more than most of you guys, put together as demonstrated - more by yourselves and your clueless comments than by anything I said, LOL - in the "I think forms are useless thread").

Of course, you are always welcome to borrow and use my statement any time you please to honestly demonstrate your own limited knowledge of various TCMA aspects of training, because "cross training" in dignity and humbleness, may do some of you guys some good (eventually).

Let my statement be a lesson to many of the "know it alls" in this forum!

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fact is, you don't know half the things you profess to have SOME experience in.

And this constant attempts to degrade other people's superiour knowledge of the things you WISH you knew, well, that's just childish.

I doubt that you would be able to even begin to understand the TRUE MA knowledge that I possess.

Perhaps that is your source of envy?

I am sure that eventually the truth will come to you and you will understand.

Till them, don't be a hater of those that are better and more well trained, envy is poison for the soul.

[lkfmdc]

Fact is, you don't know half the things you profess to have SOME experience in.

And this constant attempts to degrade other people's superiour knowledge of the things you WISH you knew, well, that's just childish.

I doubt that you would be able to even begin to understand the TRUE MA knowledge that I possess.

Perhaps that is your source of envy?

I am sure that eventually the truth will come to you and you will understand.

Till them, don't be a hater of those that are better and more well trained, envy is poison for the soul.

too long for a sig but QFT none the less :D

[Boston Bagua]

Excellent response Paul.

[Hardwork108]

Fact is, you don't know half the things you profess to have SOME experience in.
the fact is that if I don't know something then I am man enough to admit it!
Not run around in circles like a headless chicken like most of you "I know everything, because I am a cross trainer", kick boxers.


And this constant attempts to degrade other people's superiour knowledge of the things you WISH you knew, well, that's just childish.
No one is degrading your "superior" knowledge from years of hard training while being Jack of all trades. I am sure that there is a lot you have been exposed to and that you know that I don't. The point is that I am man enough to admit that!


However, you are not man enough to admit that you are clueless about certain aspects of Chow Gar training that you have absolutely no knowledge of. You proved that lack of knowledge and so did your other buddies. There were only two people who attempted to discuss the matter without bringing in Olympic weight training methodology or Goju ryu kata, for gods sake!


I doubt that you would be able to even begin to understand the TRUE MA knowledge that I possess.
I will understand when I see the Hollywood bio pic about your legendary martial path. Lol.


Perhaps that is your source of envy?
IMHO, you are too full of yourself. Even your forum name is pretentious. You don't admit to being clueless about any TCMA area of study, even when you are demonstrated to be hopelessly clueless. Yet, you mock me for honestly admitting limited knowledge in a certain area, ironically in the same area that I still proved myself more knowledgable than you!

Now you assume that you are the subject of my envy. LOL.

I have news for you. I am not an envious person and have never been, not even as a child. If I was ever to be envious then I would direct that envy to people who are experts in the area of martial arts that interest and fascinate me, that means AUTHENTIC TCMA-ists and not disilusional cross training kick boxers who claim authentic kung fu knowledge.

I have said this before, I believe you to be a decent fighter but that does not prove kung fu knowledge or prowess, given your MA background that include a dozen arts that have nothing to do with(and sometimes contradict) the higher aspects of TCMAs.


I am sure that eventually the truth will come to you and you will understand.
The truth about you has been with me for a long time. ;)


Till them, don't be a hater of those that are better and more well trained,
And I am not a hater of those. Actually, I am an admirer of such people, even if they are so in arts that I don't practice. That would in theory include you as well.

I only "hate" them when they make clueless comments, criticisms and even ridicule training methodologies that they are not familiar with. It is all there for everyone to see in the "Dynamic Tension in forms" thread! [Why start a thread when you are not going to accept any new info coming in? ]

When having been "enlightened" they still don´ t admit ignorance and go on to take their "better" and more "well trained" butts and hide under a proverbial rock of dis-information, deceit and lies!

It is very sad that none of the original people (including yourself) are any the wiser regarding the methodology revealed here by the poster, David, in the "Dynamic tension in forms" thread.

None of you agree with that methodology but at the same time none of you are familiar with it either and none of you seem to want to get familiar with it because first of all you need to admit to not knowing anything about it and then you need to empty your glass! it is just sad!



envy is poison for the soul.
You should add the word "insecurity" to that statement and repeat-read it every night before you go to bed. Actually, you can send a copy to Lkfmdc and ask him to the same!


HW108

[Xiao3 Meng4]

You must remember that chimps are muscular not because of weightlifting but because of their NATURAL day to day activity combined with their natural body make up.

I'm keeping this in mind, don't worry. Wild Chimps are highly active - foraging, moving through the jungle on all four legs (quadripedal movement,) climbing trees, and eating very good food. My point is, they build muscle through constant, quadripedal bodyweight activity.



Even in captivity where these animals don't get their usual exercise a full grown chimp can still destroy a human being.

A captive chimp is but a shadow of its wild cousin. I agree, it's not as fit. I'd say that a captive chimp could, as you say, "destroy" an average urbanite, but I'm going to go ahead and argue that an athletic human stands a good chance against a captive chimp.



However, looking at humans one can see that our day to day activities do not give us comparable abilities to chimps. The modern life style can take some blame for this


Agreed. Modern, post-industrial urban life has allowed people to exploit their lazy gene to the max. Most people do not compare to the physique of their ancestors.



we have too much body tension, we don't breath properly and lack body unity.

Most of this can be chalked up to lifestyle again. High stress, prohibitive laws and social norms, and finding the TV/computer/Xbox from an early age.



Blindly adding weight training to this equasion is not going to help the matter either.

Anyone who blindly adds anything, whether it be weight training or tendon changing, runs a risk of hurting themselves. That said, if someone wants to improve their health by lifting weights, they can and will, provided they do it carefully. Just like anything.



The internal training attempts to firstly adjust those factors before going any deeper through a specific and apparently not so well understood methodology.

Same with modern athletics. Realignment and relaxation first, stabilization/connectedness second, force (mass x velocity) 3rd.



So what is the "secret" of chimps? IMHO, it is their relaxed and unified body movements. I.e. Their body structure is unified and linked.

A chimps' relaxed and unified movement is attributable to two factors. 1, a clear mind; 2, constant quadripedal movement.

Quadripedal movement - the unified, connected movement of the four limbs - is something we as humans often neglect. In our brains, we separate our actions. Getting back to a point where we're always moving quadripedally (even if we're standing on 2 limbs only,) is a great way to develop connected muscularity. Unfortunately, because we don't hang around in trees anymore, our upper limbs generally require some kind of extra stimulation. Not necessarily weight training (although, done with body unity, that's fine too,) but some kind of activity that requires prolonged use of arm movement - preferably with resistance of some kind (crawling, climbing, lifting, etc.) I find that both "internal" and "external" systems address this, just in different ways. The bottom line is body unity, though, and everyone I've talked with understands the importance of that on this forum.





Seriously, some of this stuff is not talked about in detail outside the school. I am sure that you appreciate that we are not discussing kickboxing here and that there are aspects in your own TCMA training that you do not discuss publicly.

That's too bad that there's a gag order on you. All of my training is available for discussion. I try to leave no question unanswered, and I'm always happy to share what I know, what I'm working on, or have recently discovered/understood.




IMHO, I get all of the above and much more from my internal training.



Furthermore, modern athletic training are unaware of the deeper and unusual TCMA training principles.

Modern athletic training is not necessarily unaware of these things. Paul Chek, the founder of the CHEK program (an elite modern athletics program,) actually incorporates Qigong principles and sinew/tendon changing into his training regimens. There's remarkably little weight training (for example, in one of his programs you do one sit-up a day.) He's one of the "post-moderns" in the sense that he draws both from traditional and modern sources for his curriculum.







I would respectfully disagree and make the correction saying that most people here ARE non-kung fu people, no matter what they say in their profiles or what they believe they have been practicing for the last zillion years. Of course, that does not say that a conversation with them won't turn out "interesting"...Lol.

You're disagreeing with what, here... the fact that I enjoy talking to most everyone??? There's no correction to be made, it was my opinion. Why not make the mental choice to turn "interesting" into "fruitful?" It's in your power to do so.




I am not qualified to start such a thread. My knowledge is limited to what I practice in my level of practice and even some of that stuff is not to be discussed publicly, anyway. So, I do have some material but not enough to start a thread.


People start threads when they have questions, or when they want to share something. I certainly don't know everything, but that doesn't stop me from engaging in productive conversation! I'm not saying go and start an expert thread on sinew/tendon change (expert threads! LOL!), I'm saying start a thread which is open and inquisitive about the practice and its variations. I guarantee you'll have more productive input than you think you will.




I can appreciate that as I have been through that too but some people (not talking about you) promote cross training and its "eternal" benefits

As is their right and their pleasure. If you can promote mono-stylistic training, they're certainly entitled to promote what they see as beneficial. Of course, the less derogatory an contemptuous a viewpoint is, the more likely it is that people will choose to discuss with an open mind. Leave the verbal barbs at home, I say.


I have yet to see a Traditionalist chase away an MMA-ist or cross trainer from this forum (LOL), even though this is mainly a Kung Fu forum, which should kind of give priority to the TCMA methodology in favor of the MMA/cross trainers. LOL

Ever wonder why MMA/cross trainers have an interest in Kung Fu? Do you really think it's just so they can bash it?



I don't believe that it is a question of counselling. Besides, I really believe that there are a few here who are beyond any therapy.

Unhelpful.



It is more a question of morals and dignity that comes with a decent up bringing. If you don't get that up to a certain age then I don't believe that counselling is going to be of much help. As far as respect goes, then sometimes I find it hard to respect ignorance based on arrogance and arrogance based on ignorance. Others in the "I think forms are useless" thread may say the same about me but most of them will do so through their own insecurity which is literally "written" all over that very thread!


Have you ever heard of projection? It usually coincides with the "methinks the lady doth protest too much" phenomenon... and yes, I'm pointing out that, compared to the actual severity of the situation, you are protesting excessively - each of your replies to me has included a complaint about how others have treated you, or a jab against someone not even involved in our conversation. Can you find some way to let all of that go and just move on?

I find it difficult to respect arrogance, no matter what the root cause. Just because someone has skill or knowledge with others don't have doesn't give them the right to be arrogant. Likewise, arrogance towards ignorance isn't constructive, and reflects the ignorance of the arrogant person more than the "ignorant" person themselves.

[Hardwork108]

I'm keeping this in mind, don't worry. Wild Chimps are highly active - foraging, moving through the jungle on all four legs (quadripedal movement,) climbing trees, and eating very good food. My point is, they build muscle through constant, quadripedal bodyweight activity.
If their using their own body weight to build strength and they do so by moving their bodies in a "unified" and relaxed manner, then that would parallel some internal principles.



A captive chimp is but a shadow of its wild cousin. I agree, it's not as fit. I'd say that a captive chimp could, as you say, "destroy" an average urbanite, but I'm going to go ahead and argue that an athletic human stands a good chance against a captive chimp.
You do have a valid point there. Of course we do appreciate the other factors behind the "untrained/unfit" chimp's power.


Anyone who blindly adds anything, whether it be weight training or tendon changing, runs a risk of hurting themselves.
Yet there were people in the "Dynamic tension in forms" thread who would blindly recommend weight training to a Chow Gar practitioner. Their numbers included various cross trainers with decades of experience, including one with credentials in Olympic weight training!

Do you see where I am coming from?



That said, if someone wants to improve their health by lifting weights, they can and will, provided they do it carefully. Just like anything.

I agree totally!




Same with modern athletics. Realignment and relaxation first, stabilization/connectedness second, force (mass x velocity) 3rd.

I agree except that IMHO the internal "connectedness" can be of a deeper level.



A chimps' relaxed and unified movement is attributable to two factors. 1, a clear mind; 2, constant quadripedal movement.
Constant "connected" quadripedal movement.:)


Quadripedal movement - the unified, connected movement of the four limbs - is something we as humans often neglect. In our brains, we separate our actions. Getting back to a point where we're always moving quadripedally (even if we're standing on 2 limbs only,) is a great way to develop connected muscularity. Unfortunately, because we don't hang around in trees anymore, our upper limbs generally require some kind of extra stimulation. Not necessarily weight training (although, done with body unity, that's fine too,) but some kind of activity that requires prolonged use of arm movement - preferably with resistance of some kind (crawling, climbing, lifting, etc.) I find that both "internal" and "external" systems address this, just in different ways. The bottom line is body unity, though, and everyone I've talked with understands the importance of that on this forum.

Unfortunately for many, there are many levels to body unity. The tai chi body unity is not the same as a boxers. A boxer's body unity is not the same as Chow Gar's. Inquisitive minds would do well to investigate these differences in detail.



That's too bad that there's a gag order on you.
You could put it that way. I don't resent the "gag order" as I understand and agree with it.


All of my training is available for discussion. I try to leave no question unanswered, and I'm always happy to share what I know, what I'm working on, or have recently discovered/understood.
Understood and fair enough.:)



Modern athletic training is not necessarily unaware of these things. Paul Chek, the founder of the CHEK program (an elite modern athletics program,) actually incorporates Qigong principles and sinew/tendon changing into his training regimens. There's remarkably little weight training (for example, in one of his programs you do one sit-up a day.) He's one of the "post-moderns" in the sense that he draws both from traditional and modern sources for his curriculum.
It is good to know that while we have people telling us to throw away old TCMA methodologies, there are other modern athletes that investigate and learn from them.

It is funny that you mention sit ups, as they also negate certain qualities that one tries to achieve in Chow Gar (the lineage that I am familiar with).




You're disagreeing with what, here... the fact that I enjoy talking to most everyone??? There's no correction to be made, it was my opinion. Why not make the mental choice to turn "interesting" into "fruitful?" It's in your power to do so.
You forgot to add hilarious to the equasion. Lol

Seriously, though at the end of the day this just a forum and we can talk to anyone. There is no harm as at best we can learn something new and at worst have a laugh or two (or three).



People start threads when they have questions, or when they want to share something. I certainly don't know everything, but that doesn't stop me from engaging in productive conversation! I'm not saying go and start an expert thread on sinew/tendon change (expert threads! LOL!), I'm saying start a thread which is open and inquisitive about the practice and its variations. I guarantee you'll have more productive input than you think you will.

LOL. I can imagine someone starting an expert thread on tendon/sinew in this forum and the resulting wounded egos, exploding heads and blood and brains all over the place. It would be inhuman, I tell ya, inhuman! LOL.

I get your point but all the same I have limited knowledge of other approaches and can't really talk about our school's approach in public, so I guess someone else can start such a thread. May be if you feel up to it?



As is their right and their pleasure. If you can promote mono-stylistic training, they're certainly entitled to promote what they see as beneficial. Of course, the less derogatory an contemptuous a viewpoint is, the more likely it is that people will choose to discuss with an open mind. Leave the verbal barbs at home, I say.
You really need to see the "Dynamic tension in forms thread",:D


Ever wonder why MMA/cross trainers have an interest in Kung Fu? Do you really think it's just so they can bash it?
Some of them just do that!

Others are here to feed their egos and impart irrelevant knowledge and recommend improvements to arts in which they have no credible experience nor understanding.

So quite often you get a kung fu person asking about defense against take downs (just an example) and the solution would come from a BJJ point of view and not a kung fu one. Why? Because apparently some "experts" here believe that kung fu does not deal with this kind of attacks, because in Old China ( where wrestling arts were in existance long before kung fu) no body had thought that the fight would go to the ground.LOL

What I am getting to is that the cross trainers and MMA-ists are not here to learn but to TEACH. It is an ego thing with many of them. If you look at the attitude in "I think forms suck" thread and the "Dynamic Tension in forms" thread, you will see exactly what I am talking about.

Modern MMA-ists and cross trainers do not have deep knowledge of any kung fu style. They have spent their lives filling in the gaps with arts from all over the place. Fair enough that it works for them.

However, when newbie enter this forum and asks about a certain defensive move he is more likely to get a Muay Thai or boxing perspective (because apparently they are "functional") than a kung fu one. There are exceptions of course but that is the trend and the reality here!



Have you ever heard of projection? It usually coincides with the "methinks the lady doth protest too much" phenomenon... and yes, I'm pointing out that, compared to the actual severity of the situation, you are protesting excessively - each of your replies to me has included a complaint about how others have treated you, or a jab against someone not even involved in our conversation. Can you find some way to let all of that go and just move on?
I have moved on. I haven't made a single reference to clueless Sanjuro in this post!:p


I find it difficult to respect arrogance, no matter what the root cause. Just because someone has skill or knowledge with others don't have doesn't give them the right to be arrogant. Likewise, arrogance towards ignorance isn't constructive, and reflects the ignorance of the arrogant person more than the "ignorant" person themselves.

I know what you are saying. In reality I am not an arrogant person. I just don't take most of these "I know everything" characters too seriously on the net, and besides being a little tongue in cheek, I also tend to reflect their arrogance right back at them. It might make them think a little.:)

Sorry if that has been an inconvenience to you.

HW108

[Lucas]

anyone who knows me knows i dont go picking on people or name calling or belittling. i believe everyone, even your neighborhood drug addict, has something to offer ( yes pun intended :p ). i truly find no point in trying to make anyone feel less of themselves or what they do, its part of MY honor. if someone says something derogitory or hurtful about something that i like, kungfu in this case, ill maybe state my opinion or experience on the matter, but at a certain point, silence is golden, especially if your words fall on deaf ears, why waste your energy. never though will you see me directly attack or belittle anyone for their martial art choices or opinions. i wasnt always like this but i understood a long time ago that a good way to better myself is to find traits in others that i adore and make those part of myself.

however with that said, i am going to type something kind of mean.

hardwork108 i will say that you tend to, on average, come off with a self appointed air of superiority. You also continuously belittle people with 'under the breath' snide remarks and assumptions that you yourself get defensive about if someone returns the favor. some things you say i agree with, some things i dont. over all though, I think you let this online forum stuff effect you to throroughly.

i do appologize if im being disrespectful, but sometimes it can be healthy to hear this type of stuff from a non aggresive source.

seriously i dont think you are a bad guy. just keep on truckin, but let this small stuff sweat you less brother. if you dont let it touch you, it cannot effect you.

[Hardwork108]

hardwork108 i will say that you tend to, on average, come off with a self appointed air of superiority.
If I do then I apologize. I don't intend to!

I will add that even in this thread you will see others do that too. If you are interested then go to the "Dynamic Tension in forms" thread and see how the poster "David" was treated when he mentioned an uncommon methodology that no one here was aware of.

See the these same people's reaction when I entered the thread in David's support.

Of course, this does not take anything away from the fact that I over react. However, one has to see the other side of the story as well.:)


You also continuously belittle people with 'under the breath' snide remarks and assumptions
I don't assume anything without evidence.


that you yourself get defensive about if someone returns the favor. some things you say i agree with, some things i dont. over all though, I think you let this online forum stuff effect you to throroughly.

More often than not it is them who make the assumptions.


i do appologize if im being disrespectful, but sometimes it can be healthy to hear this type of stuff from a non aggresive source.
No need to apologize and you have not been disrespectful, but honest with your opinions.

However, I do wish that you would recognize other people's disrespectful and pompous behavior as well. In this very thread I was looked down upon by Sanjuro for being honest and admitting limited knowledge in a certain aspect of martial arts. The same Sanjuro who was unaware of certain Chow Gar methodology and has not admitted to his lack of knowledge up to now. IF you think his hipocritical behavior is morally sound then that is ok, but I thought I would mention it to you.


seriously i dont think you are a bad guy. just keep on truckin, but let this small stuff sweat you less brother. if you dont let it touch you, it cannot effect you.

It is good to hear honest statements and thank you. Lucas, I don't take this stuff seriously. I know it comes across that way but it is mainly tongue in cheek as I mentioned to Xiao3 Meng4. That does not mean that I enjoy reading uninformed comments on valid TCMA methodology but I don't loose sleep over them either.

Take care :-)

HW108

[Xiao3 Meng4]

If their using their own body weight to build strength and they do so by moving their bodies in a "unified" and relaxed manner, then that would parallel some internal principles.

All animals practice Internal Kung Fu. :)



Yet there were people in the "Dynamic tension in forms" thread who would blindly recommend weight training to a Chow Gar practitioner. Their numbers included various cross trainers with decades of experience, including one with credentials in Olympic weight training!


Again, clarity is important. If someone recommends a training method without listing the risks with the benefits, it might be best to ask them about it along those lines. It's a good bet that if they can't outline the risks and proper methodology of what they're suggesting, then they're either being tongue in cheek or they're just trolling. Sometimes people know, they just don't say, though - often because they're so into it that they forget that others might not be at the level they are. Engaging these "blind" suggestions with the questioning mentioned above before deciding whether or not a suggestion is above-board or not goes a long way towards clearing up misunderstandings.



I agree except that IMHO the internal "connectedness" can be of a deeper level.


Any thoughts on what the reason might be? Do you think something basic, such as length of training time, has an impact?



Unfortunately for many, there are many levels to body unity. The tai chi body unity is not the same as a boxers. A boxer's body unity is not the same as Chow Gar's. Inquisitive minds would do well to investigate these differences in detail.


The following is just my current viewpoint:

Either someone's training to ingrain specific neuromotor pathways for quick development of competence in a specified task (a type of "external" training by my books) or training to remove all learned/habitual/inefficient pathways for the development of high levels of proprioception, sense acquisition and instinct for health and self-defense (a type of "internal" training.) As such, the resulting "bodies" may both be very healthy, but have different ideals regarding performance. Then you'll have people training both to varying degrees, again with resultant different "bodies."

Back to the old "internal/external" paradox: both really need to be trained together. Usually, most people do... it's just that in their minds they sometimes focus on one or the other. Regardless of what they think they're training, the joke is that there are no absolutes - No pure Yin or Pure Yang. Each contains elements of the other, so I try to train with both in mind.


Sorry if that has been an inconvenience to you.
HW108

No worries.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the fact is that if I don't know something then I am man enough to admit it!
Not run around in circles like a headless chicken like most of you "I know everything, because I am a cross trainer", kick boxers.


No one is degrading your "superior" knowledge from years of hard training while being Jack of all trades. I am sure that there is a lot you have been exposed to and that you know that I don't. The point is that I am man enough to admit that!


However, you are not man enough to admit that you are clueless about certain aspects of Chow Gar training that you have absolutely no knowledge of. You proved that lack of knowledge and so did your other buddies. There were only two people who attempted to discuss the matter without bringing in Olympic weight training methodology or Goju ryu kata, for gods sake!


I will understand when I see the Hollywood bio pic about your legendary martial path. Lol.


IMHO, you are too full of yourself. Even your forum name is pretentious. You don't admit to being clueless about any TCMA area of study, even when you are demonstrated to be hopelessly clueless. Yet, you mock me for honestly admitting limited knowledge in a certain area, ironically in the same area that I still proved myself more knowledgable than you!

Now you assume that you are the subject of my envy. LOL.

I have news for you. I am not an envious person and have never been, not even as a child. If I was ever to be envious then I would direct that envy to people who are experts in the area of martial arts that interest and fascinate me, that means AUTHENTIC TCMA-ists and not disilusional cross training kick boxers who claim authentic kung fu knowledge.

I have said this before, I believe you to be a decent fighter but that does not prove kung fu knowledge or prowess, given your MA background that include a dozen arts that have nothing to do with(and sometimes contradict) the higher aspects of TCMAs.


The truth about you has been with me for a long time. ;)


And I am not a hater of those. Actually, I am an admirer of such people, even if they are so in arts that I don't practice. That would in theory include you as well.

I only "hate" them when they make clueless comments, criticisms and even ridicule training methodologies that they are not familiar with. It is all there for everyone to see in the "Dynamic Tension in forms" thread! [Why start a thread when you are not going to accept any new info coming in? ]

When having been "enlightened" they still don´ t admit ignorance and go on to take their "better" and more "well trained" butts and hide under a proverbial rock of dis-information, deceit and lies!

It is very sad that none of the original people (including yourself) are any the wiser regarding the methodology revealed here by the poster, David, in the "Dynamic tension in forms" thread.

None of you agree with that methodology but at the same time none of you are familiar with it either and none of you seem to want to get familiar with it because first of all you need to admit to not knowing anything about it and then you need to empty your glass! it is just sad!



You should add the word "insecurity" to that statement and repeat-read it every night before you go to bed. Actually, you can send a copy to Lkfmdc and ask him to the same!


HW108

My dearest HW8, may you have peace, for you certainly seem to need it.
All this thrashing about VS the wind...sad...
Issues with your father perhaps? lack of a father figure in your life and betrayed by the one you hopes to take that place?

Little one, know that all well be alright and that peace is within your grasp, just allow the tao to show you the way.

Peace be with you I am sure that know one here harbours you ill feelings, pity perhaps, but certainly nothing hostile.
I am sure that all this "raging against your demons" won't last forever biut if you ever need someone to talk too I am sure there are professionals in Colombia that will help you.

All the best my child.

[sanjuro_ronin]

However, I do wish that you would recognize other people's disrespectful and pompous behavior as well. In this very thread I was looked down upon by Sanjuro for being honest and admitting limited knowledge in a certain aspect of martial arts. The same Sanjuro who was unaware of certain Chow Gar methodology and has not admitted to his lack of knowledge up to now. IF you think his hipocritical behavior is morally sound then that is ok, but I thought I would mention it to you.

My dear admirer, at a certain point the flattery I feel from your attention concerns me, I won't call it stalking at this time, no, it far to soon for that.
Nevertheless I should make it clear that I am hetrosexual and happily married.
Yes I am aware that is of a great disappointment to you but even though I am of european and latin background I do not subscribe to that "spartan" view of things that you may be looking for.
I honestly can't say that I am flattered either, you seem to uptight and confused and not really my type anyways.
Perhaps you best focus your attention on others more in your "sphere of dilusion".
All the best in your search for....well...whatever ****erotic fixation you seem to be pursuing.

[Hardwork108]

All animals practice Internal Kung Fu. :)
You have hit the nail on the head. :)

There are many "Modernists" who wonder, "why copy animal fighting when we are human and should be fighting like humans?". They have only looked at one dimension of "animal" styles and techniques and I am guessing that there are at least 3 or 4 dimensions to this type of methodology.



Again, clarity is important. If someone recommends a training method without listing the risks with the benefits, it might be best to ask them about it along those lines. It's a good bet that if they can't outline the risks and proper methodology of what they're suggesting, then they're either being tongue in cheek or they're just trolling.
I am not sure which side of the debate you are referring to but I am certain that the poster, David, was not trolling. He described the methodology of not using weights in Chow Gar training. If memory serves me right he also gave a few reasons. In his case clarity was not an issue because the "judges" had already decided on the sentence.

I came in to that thread 11 days after the last post had been made there. I directed a post at David and supported his approach and then the whole thing was repeated with me.

It sad, but sometimes people overlook and ignore clarity when it does not suite their egos. However, you make a valid point.



Sometimes people know, they just don't say,
I understand, but it looked the opposite to me where people did not know but just said, lol.


though - often because they're so into it that they forget that others might not be at the level they are. Engaging these "blind" suggestions with the questioning mentioned above before deciding whether or not a suggestion is above-board or not goes a long way towards clearing up misunderstandings.

Seriously speaking I know what you are trying to say (at least I think I know) but sometimes no matter how clear and diplomatic you are people just don't want to hear a message that messes with their egos and their illusions of grandeur.

As far as the TCMAs go this attitude is just silly, because the subject area is vast and deeper than most people imagine, so I don't know where the shame is in just saying "hey I am unfamiliar with that" ; "I don't know" or "tell me more", "how do you compensate for such and such" and so on. This is better than going on and "shooting the messenger" and ridiculing concepts way above their heads.

Hey, I hope that I did not mis-interprete your whole statement.:confused:



Any thoughts on what the reason might be? Do you think something basic, such as length of training time, has an impact?

Length of time is a very important aspect but some people do get it quicker. The particular training methodology is paramount to getting the results required. It is a subtle methodology but the results go far deeper than just external connectivity which is also valid and has its own merits.



The following is just my current viewpoint:

Either someone's training to ingrain specific neuromotor pathways for quick development of competence in a specified task (a type of "external" training by my books) or training to remove all learned/habitual/inefficient pathways for the development of high levels of proprioception, sense acquisition and instinct for health and self-defense (a type of "internal" training.) As such, the resulting "bodies" may both be very healthy, but have different ideals regarding performance. Then you'll have people training both to varying degrees, again with resultant different "bodies."

I agree with that. Of course, there are internalists who distinguish being fit from being healthy. As in you getting fit through external training but that does not mean that you are getting healthy, while correct internal training is seen to have inbuilt health benefits as well as the aimed for martial ones.


Back to the old "internal/external" paradox: both really need to be trained together. Usually, most people do... it's just that in their minds they sometimes focus on one or the other.
True, you can't have one without the other but and this is a big but, I have come to understand that the more internal the TCMA then the more high level it is classified by many TCMA-ists. I have met sifus who confirm this school of thought.

Now for those who are truly interested in TCMAs would probably want to ask why!
And I believe that researching this vast area this would be a fascinating endeavor for those who take both the scholarly and martial approach to their kung fu training.

There are a lot of subtle elements in internal training that are not visible to the unlooker. Hence all the confusion and cluelessness but researching and studying them will open the door to an unknown world. The hints are all around us but many people refuse to look outside their box and accept, because they already know every thing. LOL.


Regardless of what they think they're training, the joke is that there are no absolutes - No pure Yin or Pure Yang. Each contains elements of the other, so I try to train with both in mind.
I agree and our aim should be eventually to surpass both yin and the yang, to a point where there is no positive and no negative; no strength and no weakness, just the state of "being". I believe that it is referred to Wu Ji (if my memory serves me right) and here we are talking about high level internals.

HW108

[IronWeasel]

My dearest HW8, may you have peace, for you certainly seem to need it.
All this thrashing about VS the wind...sad...
Issues with your father perhaps? lack of a father figure in your life and betrayed by the one you hopes to take that place?

Little one, know that all well be alright and that peace is within your grasp, just allow the tao to show you the way.

Peace be with you I am sure that know one here harbours you ill feelings, pity perhaps, but certainly nothing hostile.
I am sure that all this "raging against your demons" won't last forever biut if you ever need someone to talk too I am sure there are professionals in Colombia that will help you.

All the best my child.


Wow.

I just had the BEST cry!

Thank you.
thank you.





;)

[Dragonzbane76]

[
Others are here to feed their egos and impart irrelevant knowledge and recommend improvements to arts in which they have no credible experience nor understanding.

So quite often you get a kung fu person asking about defense against take downs (just an example) and the solution would come from a BJJ point of view and not a kung fu one. Why? Because apparently some "experts" here believe that kung fu does not deal with this kind of attacks, because in Old China ( where wrestling arts were in existance long before kung fu) no body had thought that the fight would go to the ground.LOL

What I am getting to is that the cross trainers and MMA-ists are not here to learn but to TEACH. It is an ego thing with many of them. If you look at the attitude in "I think forms suck" thread and the "Dynamic Tension in forms" thread, you will see exactly what I am talking about.

Modern MMA-ists and cross trainers do not have deep knowledge of any kung fu style. They have spent their lives filling in the gaps with arts from all over the place. Fair enough that it works for them.

However, when newbie enter this forum and asks about a certain defensive move he is more likely to get a Muay Thai or boxing perspective (because apparently they are "functional") than a kung fu one. There are exceptions of course but that is the trend and the reality here

I think it's funny you lump everyone into a single catagory. Thinking no one else on this planet has experienced anything remotely of your 'internal' kung fu. I tried to speak with you on a level of intellegence but you distanced yourself and pointed down upon me with your comments of "im better than you because i train chow gar" type stuff. That no other art on this planet has come close to the internal "solution" that 'your' kung fu has come to. NONE.

I'm sorry i pity you more than anything that you live in such a small place that you believe every other fighting art on this planet present and past besides TCMA has no meaning on the fore front.

Humbling is the word i think you should experience just once to feel what it is to know what it is I know.

Preaching from your podium that no other has experienced what you know. That none know what "true Kung fu" is.

Step outside and look to see that there are many other arts that practice the same principles and train the same regiments. time and time again it has been seen, heard, and experienced by many.

[Hardwork108]

[

I think it's funny you lump everyone into a single catagory. Thinking no one else on this planet has experienced anything remotely of your 'internal' kung fu. I tried to speak with you on a level of intellegence but you distanced yourself and pointed down upon me with your comments of "im better than you because i train chow gar" type stuff. That no other art on this planet has come close to the internal "solution" that 'your' kung fu has come to. NONE.

I'm sorry i pity you more than anything that you live in such a small place that you believe every other fighting art on this planet present and past besides TCMA has no meaning on the fore front.

Humbling is the word i think you should experience just once to feel what it is to know what it is I know.

Preaching from your podium that no other has experienced what you know. That none know what "true Kung fu" is.

Step outside and look to see that there are many other arts that practice the same principles and train the same regiments. time and time again it has been seen, heard, and experienced by many.

What you quoted in your post had nothing to do with my knowledge of Chow Gar. You missed the point of what I was saying in that quote and then went on to project your own insecurities all over the place.

Look, if you are happy with what you do then I am happy for you but don't go around ridiculing concepts that you don't understand or at least you are not familiar with just because you think that the Western model of MA training is second to none. That is all. It does not matter if I do Chow Gar or Hun gar!

That is my point and it has been repeated god knows how many times!

[Dragonzbane76]

What you quoted in your post had nothing to do with my knowledge of Chow Gar. You missed the point of what I was saying in that quote and then went on to project your own insecurities all over the place.

Look, if you are happy with what you do then I am happy for you but don't go around ridiculing concepts that you don't understand or at least you are not familiar with just because you think that the Western model of MA training is second to none. That is all. It does not matter if I do Chow Gar or Hun gar!

That is my point and it has been repeated god knows how many times!

maybe i generalized a bit but the general gist of it was my point.

I am happy and i have no insecurities over what i do. your thoughts on what i have 'no grasp over' are a falus. And who in the world did you get the concept that i was speaking of just "western" MA. I"m talking the world over. And second if anyone is stating that Eastern MA is second to none you should look in the mirror.

[Hardwork108]

maybe i generalized a bit but the general gist of it was my point.


I am happy and i have no insecurities over what i do.
Good, and I am very happy for you.


your thoughts on what i have 'no grasp over' are a falus.
So that means you will keep on denying that there are TCMA concepts that you don't know about?


And who in the world did you get the concept that i was speaking of just "western" MA. I"m talking the world over.
Are you saying that you personally have not heard of the concepts that I and the poster David were talking about and hence no such concepts are possible "the world over"? Christ, this is getting better all the time.LOL

Look, there is a lot of TCMA stuff out there that is not in books or dvds. Stuff that is not taught openly. You really dare to have the mindset of "if it exists then I would have known about it"? Who is being a pompous know it all now?

You guys really have to come down from your high horses and stop ridiculing people and TCMA concepts that are way above your heads!




And second if anyone is stating that Eastern MA is second to none you should look in the mirror.
My chosen path is kung fu. It is my path. It may not be yours or others but I find all that I need and more in its rich training curriculum. Others may have other arts and paths and again good luck to them, but don't be blind to concepts you don't know ziltch about, wether they are from the East, the West, NOrth or South!

[Dragonzbane76]

So that means you will keep on denying that there are TCMA concepts that you don't know about?

no it mean just what it states... you do not know what I know or could know what I know.


Are you saying that you personally have not heard of the concepts that I and the poster David were talking about and hence no such concepts are possible "the world over"? Christ, this is getting better all the time.LOL

Look, there is a lot of TCMA stuff out there that is not in books or dvds. Stuff that is not taught openly. You really dare to have the mindset of "if it exists then I would have known about it"? Who is being a pompous know it all now?

You guys really have to come down from your high horses and stop ridiculing people and TCMA concepts that are way above your heads!

I never stated anything and thats the point. YOU LUMP EVERYONE INTO A CATAGORY.
there is a lot of TCMA stuff out there that is not in books or dvds you know how many times you have stated that very statement? And I'll state, there is a lot of MA stuff out there that is not in books and DVDS and not taught openly. I do not know it all but I will say i've been around the block enough to know many different things about different MA's including kung fu.

as for concepts above my head... lol... like i stated before we only have 2 arms and 2 legs until we grow other appendages then i've probably seen the gist of it all. Not saying I'm proficient at it but I've been around it.


My chosen path is kung fu. It is my path. It may not be yours or others but I find all that I need and more in its rich training curriculum. Others may have other arts and paths and again good luck to them, but don't be blind to concepts you don't know ziltch about, wether they are from the East, the West, NOrth or South!

great like i said before. But don't PUT EVERYONE ELSE INTO A CATAGORY. and i'll say the same to you don't be blind to concepts and directions that other arts teach. I'm very open to other arts and cross train into many east west south and north variants.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow.

I just had the BEST cry!

Thank you.
thank you.





;)

My duty is to serve.

[Boston Bagua]

HW,

you really come across as someone that talks way too much and shows nothing of the things you talk about.

Hence most people here think you are a mere mouthboxer.

Someday it would be good to meet up and see if you can match your mouth with your skills.

My door is always open.

[Hardwork108]

With all due respect, you should stop acting like a wounded sore butt!


no it mean just what it states... you do not know what I know or could know what I know.
Of course, I don't know what you know. I do however know WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW!
That is my point!!!!




I never stated anything and thats the point. YOU LUMP EVERYONE INTO A CATAGORY.
And that category is the unfamiliarity with the internal approaches in question. Your own clueless posts stand testimony to what you don't know!


you know how many times you have stated that very statement? And I'll state, there is a lot of MA stuff out there that is not in books and DVDS and not taught openly. I do not know it all but I will say i've been around the block enough to know many different things about different MA's including kung fu.
LOL, the MA world and this forum is full of people who have been "around the block". Yet you are not familiar with a particular Internal approach (and probably many others as well). Instead of admitting it you guys either deny its validity or pretend to know it. LOL

What is so difficult about saying "hey I don't know, I will look further into it" or even "Hey I don't know about this methodology and I don't care as I like pumping iron". Yet, no you guys either ridicule the concept with clueless comments and in the next minute turn around and pretend familiarity with it. LOL


as for concepts above my head... lol... like i stated before we only have 2 arms and 2 legs
Well statetments like that prove that you are way in above your head. You have no notion or understanding of the internals. There is nothing wrong with that per se, that is, if you don't go around pretending knowledge and understanding that you don't have.

IF you don't want to enhance your knowledge outside your box, then that is fine too, just stick to what you know and grow in that area. It is all fair and square. However, don't pretend that you know. I find that very irritating!


until we grow other appendages then i've probably seen the gist of it all.
LOL, yes the forum is full of people like you, they know everything and they have seen every thing.


Not saying I'm proficient at it but I've been around it.
Feel free to say that you are proficient in everything you have ever trained as it will be as credible as your previous statement. Besides, all the cross trainers here know everything (including the every Internal TCMA methodology..lOL,LOL,LOL) and are proficient in everything.




great like i said before. But don't PUT EVERYONE ELSE INTO A CATAGORY. and i'll say the same to you don't be blind to concepts and directions that other arts teach.
Look, let me make this simple as it is not that complicated. When you discuss any methodology, there will two CATEGORIES of people. Those who know of the methodology and those who DON'T! In this case you and most of your cross training buddies fall into the latter category! It is that simple!

If the methodology discussed was to do with Olympic weight training then I would be in the latter category. Again simple. You don't want to understand because your ego and pride don't let you. It is a case of "how dare he say that I don't know about such and such internal priniciples, I have been around the block you know.." lol.


and cross train into many east west south and north variants.
And believe me it shows.;)

[Hardwork108]

HW,

you really come across as someone that talks way too much and shows nothing of the things you talk about.

Hence most people here think you are a mere mouthboxer.

Someday it would be good to meet up and see if you can match your mouth with your skills.

My door is always open.

With all due respect, you missed my point. All of this started when I mentioned an INTERNAL METHODOLOGY which is in the curriculum of few Chow Gar lineages where there is no use of weight training as we know it in the Western sense.

Actually, the subject was brought up by another poster in the "Dynamic Tension in forms" thread by a poster named David. His approach was ridiculed by this forum's clueless ( because they acted that way) cross trainers.

I entered the thread in David's support. Then the same thing happened to me. If you have been following all this then you will know that other posters have been able to discuss this matter with me giving their own insights and inputs.

The problem seems to be that many who criticized the approach of developing tendo/muscle power and strengh without using weights seem to be unfamiliar (to say the least) with the methodology that they so readily criticized and ridiculed.

So, I was not here boasting about my fighting prowess or challenging people. I don't know where you people get this stuff.

The simple question was this : Did the people who ridiculed and criticized this Chow Gar methodology had any understanding of it at all?

This got under those very people's skin and we have been running around circles since then because they don't want to admit that they criticized a methodology which they had no idea existed, let alone understood!

Do you use the so called "Western" weight training approach with your Bagua? I ask because there are Bagua masters who don't.

[Boston Bagua]

HW,

I practice old school Bagua training with oversized weapons, Iron Vest(60 pounds) and all manner of heavy things that I carry and walk with to develop my structure the old way.

I also use resistance bands, KBs to help me be the strongest I can be within a totally functional capacity.

Just doing old school training and ignoring modern methods is silly. See what methods work for you and train them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one ridiculed David, people disagreed and some called into question his understanding of strength training and his understanding of anatomy and perhaps in an off- colour way, but David, the person, was not ridiculed.

[Dragonzbane76]

With all due respect, you should stop acting like a wounded sore butt!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76
no it mean just what it states... you do not know what I know or could know what I know.

Of course, I don't know what you know. I do however know WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW!
That is my point!!!!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
I never stated anything and thats the point. YOU LUMP EVERYONE INTO A CATAGORY.

And that category is the unfamiliarity with the internal approaches in question. Your own clueless posts stand testimony to what you don't know!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
you know how many times you have stated that very statement? And I'll state, there is a lot of MA stuff out there that is not in books and DVDS and not taught openly. I do not know it all but I will say i've been around the block enough to know many different things about different MA's including kung fu.

LOL, the MA world and this forum is full of people who have been "around the block". Yet you are not familiar with a particular Internal approach (and probably many others as well). Instead of admitting it you guys either deny its validity or pretend to know it. LOL

What is so difficult about saying "hey I don't know, I will look further into it" or even "Hey I don't know about this methodology and I don't care as I like pumping iron". Yet, no you guys either ridicule the concept with clueless comments and in the next minute turn around and pretend familiarity with it. LOL


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
as for concepts above my head... lol... like i stated before we only have 2 arms and 2 legs

Well statetments like that prove that you are way in above your head. You have no notion or understanding of the internals. There is nothing wrong with that per se, that is, if you don't go around pretending knowledge and understanding that you don't have.

IF you don't want to enhance your knowledge outside your box, then that is fine too, just stick to what you know and grow in that area. It is all fair and square. However, don't pretend that you know. I find that very irritating!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
until we grow other appendages then i've probably seen the gist of it all.

LOL, yes the forum is full of people like you, they know everything and they have seen every thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
Not saying I'm proficient at it but I've been around it.

Feel free to say that you are proficient in everything you have ever trained as it will be as credible as your previous statement. Besides, all the cross trainers here know everything (including the every Internal TCMA methodology..lOL,LOL,LOL) and are proficient in everything.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
great like i said before. But don't PUT EVERYONE ELSE INTO A CATAGORY. and i'll say the same to you don't be blind to concepts and directions that other arts teach.

Look, let me make this simple as it is not that complicated. When you discuss any methodology, there will two CATEGORIES of people. Those who know of the methodology and those who DON'T! In this case you and most of your cross training buddies fall into the latter category! It is that simple!

If the methodology discussed was to do with Olympic weight training then I would be in the latter category. Again simple. You don't want to understand because your ego and pride don't let you. It is a case of "how dare he say that I don't know about such and such internal priniciples, I have been around the block you know.." lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonzbane
and cross train into many east west south and north variants.

And believe me it shows.

BLAH BLAH BLAH....

you know if this internal kung fu "actually exists" which it doesn't, I would not want anything to do with it because it's probably filled with people like you. full of themselves and arrogant beyond belief. you guys probably have your own little club filled with "closet masters" good for you maybe one day you'll actually come out of that "closet".

you preach the same sh1t over and over about cross training people and how worthless it is and then spin it 20 different ways. you could be a cross dressing midget looking for a night on the town and i would be like i'm cool with that. But no you point your high finger at everyone else on here stating that your pen1s is bigger and better than anyone elses.

Do you have something against people who lift weights or something? your always "cataloging" them like you do every one else in the meat head department along with any grappling art or actually anything you believe not to be this grand high internal "kung fu"

I bet your the guy at the kwoon bowing and scraping the floor before the great grand master of some said style and paying for it by taking out a 2nd morgage thinking the whole time that you've found this secret form of martial arts that will stop all end all that no one in the world has ever seen.
but in reality you've never tested your so called MA and never actually had a resistant opponent step in front of you. Never felt the pain of punishment and the triumph of winning.

AM I close on this? probably more than you'll ever admit:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

No one ridiculed David,

Well these are some of Frost's "insights" in response to some of David's comments, no doubt using his Olympic weight training credentials to justify his comments:


Lol just lol

Little did he know that he himself was going to provide a lot more laughs for me and other practitioners of this methodology, no doubt...Lol.


right and if you are interested I have some swamp land in florida for sale lol

And again:


Lol just lol

Here it is you Sanjuro_ronin, in response to one of David's posts where he tried to explain more of the methodology that most of you were clueless to:


I think you should get yourself a good book on physiology and kinesology.
Yes, forget what your sifu has taught you and is teaching you about the distinct principles and the hard to find info contained in your lineage and style and buy a book (and of course listen to our clueless ramblings). LOL


I don't know where to begin.....:confused:
Ironically, you are right there and you speak for the rest of your cross training buddies on that thread, in that you wouldn't know where to begin.

Here is another when you react to David's explanation of certain Chow Gar ideas regarding muscle building:


Wow, people still believe this?

Well, apparently people who actually practice certain internal TCMAs that you have no knowledge of, do believe this.;)


Dude, seriously, NO ONE believes that BS anymore,

Here is Frost again, Lol:


I’d leave it there he is either trolling or stuck in sifu says land, its like trying to educate a brick wall……………..
It is the good old, and now well known, tactic, "if he knows more than us or is talking about subjects that we are clueless about, then he is trolling".


people disagreed and some called into question his understanding of strength training and his understanding of anatomy and perhaps in an off- colour way, but David, the person, was not ridiculed.
Of course, he wasn't ridiculed.:rolleyes:

By the way, good to have you back. Your last couple of posts to me freaked me out. What is this with "Dearest HW......" and "peace" and so on. You put me off my stride. You really did.

Don't tell me that after having mastered all the external and internal MAs on the face of this planet now you have decide to cross train to be a Zen grand master or something like that?:confused::D

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well these are some of Frost's "insights" in response to some of David's comments, no doubt using his Olympic weight training credentials to justify his comments:



Little did he know that he himself was going to provide a lot more laughs for me and other practitioners of this methodology, no doubt...Lol.



And again:



Here it is you Sanjuro_ronin, in response to one of David's posts where he tried to explain more of the methodology that most of you were clueless to:


Yes, forget what your sifu has taught you and is teaching you about the distinct principles and the hard to find info contained in your lineage and style and buy a book (and of course listen to our clueless ramblings). LOL


Ironically, you are right there and you speak for the rest of your cross training buddies on that thread, in that you wouldn't know where to begin.

Here is another when you react to David's explanation of certain Chow Gar ideas regarding muscle building:



Well, apparently people who actually practice certain internal TCMAs that you have no knowledge of, do believe this.;)



Here is Frost again, Lol:


It is the good old, and now well known, tactic, "if he knows more than us or is talking about subjects that we are clueless about, then he is trolling".


Of course, he wasn't ridiculed.:rolleyes:

By the way, good to have you back. Your last couple of posts to me freaked me out. What is this with "Dearest HW......" and "peace" and so on. You put me off my stride. You really did.

Don't tell me that after having mastered all the external and internal MAs on the face of this planet now you have decide to cross train to be a Zen grand master or something like that?:confused::D

HW108

Thanks for proving my point, David was NOT ridiculed, his views were ( if that).
That saved me some searching time, very sweet of you.
:D

[Hardwork108]

BLAH BLAH BLAH....

you know if this internal kung fu "actually exists" which it doesn't, I would not want anything to do with it because it's probably filled with people like you. full of themselves and arrogant beyond belief. you guys probably have your own little club filled with "closet masters" good for you maybe one day you'll actually come out of that "closet".

you preach the same sh1t over and over about cross training people and how worthless it is and then spin it 20 different ways. you could be a cross dressing midget looking for a night on the town and i would be like i'm cool with that. But no you point your high finger at everyone else on here stating that your pen1s is bigger and better than anyone elses.

Do you have something against people who lift weights or something? your always "cataloging" them like you do every one else in the meat head department along with any grappling art or actually anything you believe not to be this grand high internal "kung fu"

I bet your the guy at the kwoon bowing and scraping the floor before the great grand master of some said style and paying for it by taking out a 2nd morgage thinking the whole time that you've found this secret form of martial arts that will stop all end all that no one in the world has ever seen.
but in reality you've never tested your so called MA and never actually had a resistant opponent step in front of you. Never felt the pain of punishment and the triumph of winning.

LOL...Christ all mighty! I have spent days "discussing" a rare internal methodology with a guy who is one of the "dime a dozen" cross trainers in this forum. And now he comes out and in not so many words says that he doesn't know what internals are. LOL, LOL and as my Olympic weight training forum colleague says, LOL just LOL....





AM I close on this? probably more than you'll ever admit:rolleyes:

NO, no I admit it, you are close to making me laugh my self to death..LOL, lol,lol,lol..

[Hardwork108]

Thanks for proving my point, David was NOT ridiculed, his views were ( if that).
That saved me some searching time, very sweet of you.
:D

I guess you treated my evidence of you and your friends' ridicule of David the same way you took my evidence that showed you to be clueless about Chow Gar methodology.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I guess you treated my evidence of you and your friends' ridicule of David the same way you took my evidence that showed you to be clueless about Chow Gar methodology.:D

Yes, you were wrong on both accounts.
Its ok though, to err is human and to forgive, divine and I certainly forgive you my little one.

[Hardwork108]

Thank you for the information.


HW,

I practice old school Bagua training with oversized weapons, Iron Vest(60 pounds) and all manner of heavy things that I carry and walk with to develop my structure the old way.

I also use resistance bands, KBs to help me be the strongest I can be within a totally functional capacity.

There may be more than one old school Bagua practice and methodology.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

A good read. It demonstrates how deep these styles are and how immense the TCMA field is.


Just doing old school training and ignoring modern methods is silly. See what methods work for you and train them.
It is not about ignoring modern methods. It is more about making sure that any modern methods that you use are relevant to qualities that your system aims to achieve, making sure that any adopted methodology does not negate what you are trying to achieve.

What I said is very simple. The particular lineage of Chow Gar that I am discussing does not use strength building weight training as this negates many of the effects of their internal approach. On top of that they build potent strength and shock power without using weights.

That is what I have been talking about with people who had no knowledge of htis methodology. Everything else was added by others.

[Hardwork108]

Yes, you were wrong on both accounts.
Its ok though, to err is human and to forgive, divine and I certainly forgive you my little one.

Good then you say I was wrong implying that you are familiar with the concepts I was talking about.

Now, perhaps you can explain to all of us why weight training negates what Chow Gar aims to achieve and in what way. What is the main principle behind the Chow gar body development philosophy. What is the main principle behind Chow gar's (none-weight trained) power and strength.


Feel free to run along and refer to David's post in the other thread. There might be enough there to save you skin, but then perhaps not, we will see. You will probably ask Dale Dugas as well. It doesn't matter as I will be happy if you walk away from this with a more enhanced TCMA knowledge.
HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now, perhaps you can explain to all of us why weight training negates what Chow Gar aims to achieve and in what way. What is the main principle behind the Chow gar body development philosophy. What is the main principle behind Chow gar's (none-weight trained) power and strength.




Sure, which ST protocol and which of Chow gars "aims" are you referring to?

[Hardwork108]

Sure, which ST protocol and which of Chow gars "aims" are you referring to?

Christ! It is a simple question.

It just goes to show the level of some you guy's Internal understanding which prohibits you from understanding the question, let alone, give an answer.

It is simple, if you are familiar with the style and concepts then you will understand the question.

Not understanding even the question does not reflect well on you, but do go on pretending to know about the internal aspects of this particular lineage of the style and its negative relationship with Western style weight training.

Of course, that will raise the question about the contents of your forum correspondence with David and myself!

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Christ! It is a simple question.

It just goes to show the level of some you guy's Internal understanding which prohibits you from understanding the question, let alone, give an answer.

It is simple, if you are familiar with the style and concepts then you will understand the question.

Not understanding even the question does not reflect well on you, but do go on pretending to know about the internal aspects of this particular lineage of the style and its negative relationship with Western style weight training.

Of course, that will raise the question about the contents of your forum correspondence with David and myself!

HW108


Yep, I didn't think you'd know the answer to my question, you are so transparent !
LOL !

Do you even realize that vast types of ST there are? which one would you like me to comment on?
It is a simple question that I ask you, WHICH WEIGHT TRAINING PROTOCOL are you referring to?

While Chow gar is NOT the SPM I study, nor did I ever say it was, though I am familar with it, I will endveour to answer a SPECIFIC question, IF you have one.

You said

why weight training negates what Chow Gar aims to achieve and in what way.

I asked WHICH weight training method you were referring to.

Such a simple question and yet, I am still waiting...

[sanjuro_ronin]

By the way Xiao:
A view on weight training and taiji:
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/public/212.cfm

a few parts:
Professor Cheng said not to lift weights. I suppose in his time there was only two ways to weight lift, 1. to lift heavy weights and do it until your arm burned with lactic acid. 2. To lift light weight many more reps until again, you burned from lactic acid. This, you will see from what follows, is detrimental to proficiency in sensitivity at push hands. It is detrimental to the practice of T'ai Chi, but we will discuss that at another time. I do not know if lifting light weights and avoiding the burn was a generally known way to practice in Professor Cheng's time.

and:
How do you train to this level of sensitivity? Weightlifting is necessary in our modern society for sure, or else your muscles will atrophy over time. This is not a goal that we want to have happen. In Professor Cheng's world, only the richest and most effete snob could avoid the physical stimulation of muscles that nowadays every computer nerd and obsessed video game player can easily achieve.


The whole article is quite good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since I am not getting a reply and I don't have all the time in the universe...
There is indeed a way that, if weight lifting is done "incorrectly" it can have adverse effects on the "jing" of many southern hands, including Chow Gar.

Many people focus on the concentric phase of the lift, the "push" if you will and this can not only lead to imbalance in power, but in tendon strenght, because while the mucles is used to the "force" of the concentric phase, it is weak in the eccentric part, the "pulling" part if you will.
The eccentric part of any move is the strongest part and many southern hand emphazie the part in their moves, that "snap back" for lack of a better way of putting it, is what gives their "shock" or "scared" jing that kick.

Of course, proper ST does indeed develop the eccentric part of the movement, indeed, some forms of ST actually emphasize it.

[Dragonzbane76]

And now he comes out and in not so many words says that he doesn't know what internals are.

For one i never told you anything about myself. You presumed a lot about me from our conversation, which is understandable this is the interwebss...

your definition of internal and mine are on total opposite ends of the universe so in my saying I guess i don't know what your "internal" is then.

I have no problem with what you do HW8 it's your bashing of people like myself who train in many different arts. Debasing and snide comments bring people outta the woodwork for flame wars if you haven't noticed. you throw offhanded comments about others training in arrogant terms. I have no problem with many on here that do TCMA hell even UKI and his awkwardness I respect in a sense for his time and dedication to what he does even if I don't believe in it.

You ask for respect for what you do? I suggest maybe giving a little to those who cross train and do MMA then maybe you'll recieve some in like return.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

By the way Xiao:
A view on weight training and taiji:
http://www.patiencetaichi.com/public/212.cfm


Hey Sanjuro, thanks for the article! Great read. I once had the pleasant lesson of shaking a Chen instructor's hand. For the first time, I experienced what it meant to have "iron wrapped in cotton."

One thing the article doesn't address is weight increase. I feel that smooth, small, progressive weight increases every 10-14 days are ok, especially if the reps and sets are being kept way low, like 1 a day.

I do believe that shaolin trained progressively with weights... stone and iron balls, that kind of thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Sanjuro, thanks for the article! Great read. I once had the pleasant lesson of shaking a Chen instructor's hand. For the first time, I experienced what it meant to have "iron wrapped in cotton."

One thing the article doesn't address is weight increase. I feel that smooth, small, progressive weight increases every 10-14 days are ok, especially if the reps and sets are being kept way low, like 1 a day.

I do believe that shaolin trained progressively with weights... stone and iron balls, that kind of thing.

When I was in China for the Olympics I was introduced to a fellow from the Chen village, very nice guy, he had just turned 56 and had been doing Chen Taiji since he was 4, we had a really nice chat for about 3 hours, LOL !
I felt bad for my friend who had to interpret some of the stuff !
The "iron wrapped in cotton" is quite correct.
Funny thing, he wanted to chat about HIIT at one point !

[Hardwork108]

Yep, I didn't think you'd know the answer to my question, you are so transparent !
LOL !

Do you even realize that vast types of ST there are? which one would you like me to comment on?
It is a simple question that I ask you, WHICH WEIGHT TRAINING PROTOCOL are you referring to?
That question is irrelevant. Weight training in general is seen to negate various qualities the Chow Gar system aims to achieve. So take your pick.


While Chow gar is NOT the SPM I study, nor did I ever say it was, though I am familar with it, I will endveour to answer a SPECIFIC question, IF you have one.

It is becoming very apparent that you are not as familiar with it as you think!
Your familiarity seems to be superficial and adequate for a typical cross trainer.



I asked WHICH weight training method you were referring to.
ANY weight training using weight traininig equipment or weights...go crazy...LOL


Did you know that we are even discouraged from doing press ups??

You have no idea of this methodology and how deep this style goes!!!!


Such a simple question and yet, I am still waiting...
Sorry to take so long, I was delayed because I was answering one of your clueless posts in the Southern Forum. Please accept my apology.

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry to take so long, I was delayed because I was answering one of your awesome posts in the Southern Forum. Please accept my apology.

HW108

No problem, I understand, I am not anything if not understanding of your short comings my dear friend from Pereira.
Take your time.
:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

When I was in China for the Olympics I was introduced to a fellow from the Chen village, very nice guy, he had just turned 56 and had been doing Chen Taiji since he was 4, we had a really nice chat for about 3 hours, LOL !
I felt bad for my friend who had to interpret some of the stuff !
The "iron wrapped in cotton" is quite correct.
Funny thing, he wanted to chat about HIIT at one point !

Those kinds of encounters are always interesting. That's cool that he wanted to talk HIIT with you - maybe he'd heard about something like this (http://www.biology.buffalo.edu/courses/bio130/medler/optional_readings/Exercise_and_gene_exp.pdf)?



Most people think of skeletal muscle as the tissue that makes us move, and when they think of skeletal muscle and exercise, they think of Olympians. Both perceptions grossly oversimplify this most plentiful of all tissues in the human body. Genes in skeletal muscle are exquisitely responsive to changes in loads, in some cases responding with protein production within minutes of the onset of exercise. The actions of these proteins explain adaptations to exercise as wide ranging as long-term improvements in fitness and extremely short-term protection of the nervous system from glycogen depletion. Further, their absence in sedentary people may also help cause obesity, type-2 diabetes and even some cancers. The authors hypothesize that these systems, refined through millennia in our hunter-gatherer ancestors, have become maladaptive in the past few centuries as our physical activity levels have plummeted.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Those kinds of encounters are always interesting. That's cool that he wanted to talk HIIT with you - maybe he'd heard about something like this (http://www.biology.buffalo.edu/courses/bio130/medler/optional_readings/Exercise_and_gene_exp.pdf)?

Very cool.
Nice find.

He wanted to discuss HIIT because he felt, quite correctly of course, that HIIT is a far truer example of the conditioning needed for real fighting.

See, your muscles don't know what they are doing when they are being exposed to load stress, they don't know if the load is barbell, a sand bag, or another person.
They just know that they are being put under stress and they adapt and overcome.

[Hardwork108]

No problem, I understand, I am not anything if not understanding of your short comings my dear friend from Pereira.
Take your time.
:D

Who said I am from Pereira.:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who said I am from Pereira.:confused:

Now, that would be telling...

By the way, you sure its Chow gar and not Jow Ga that you're trying to nutride this time?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Very cool.
Nice find.

He wanted to discuss HIIT because he felt, quite correctly of course, that HIIT is a far truer example of the conditioning needed for real fighting.


Did you guys talk about circuit building as part of it?



See, your muscles don't know what they are doing when they are being exposed to load stress, they don't know if the load is barbell, a sand bag, or another person.
They just know that they are being put under stress and they adapt and overcome.

Right. So it's possible to develop muscles functionally w/ weights, provided we're attentive.

[Hardwork108]

For one i never told you anything about myself. You presumed a lot about me from our conversation, which is understandable this is the interwebss...
You guys change the facts as you go along, don't you? This is your statement:


you know if this internal kung fu "actually exists" which it doesn't

So pardon me for making assumptions in regards to your "knowledge" of the internals.


your definition of internal and mine are on total opposite ends of the universe so in my saying I guess i don't know what your "internal" is then.
Sorry, Internals are what they are. There is no my definition or your definition! You either know about them and understand them to whatever level or you don't!


I have no problem with what you do HW8 it's your bashing of people like myself who train in many different arts. Debasing and snide comments bring people outta the woodwork for flame wars if you haven't noticed. you throw offhanded comments about others training in arrogant terms. I have no problem with many on here that do TCMA hell even UKI and his awkwardness I respect in a sense for his time and dedication to what he does even if I don't believe in it.
I have no problem with you guys' training methodology but I do have a problem with your pompous attitudes regarding TCMA methodologies that you are unfamiliar with. This puts off a lot of good posters who actually bother to train TCMAs and understand them more than the average cross trainer. Why? Because if any of the more unusual TCMA aspects are brought up then you have the "immoral majority" here "biting" their heads off.


You ask for respect for what you do? I suggest maybe giving a little to those who cross train and do MMA then maybe you'll recieve some in like return.
I will say that I have no problem with what you guys practice and I respect your choices of MA. I know that whatever you guys practice will need your time and dedication. What I don't respect is some of you pretending to know stuff that you have no clue about and on top of that a few go on to even criticize and ridicule people who know more than you.

The segment that I quoted above from your previous post implies, again, "I don't know about this methodology, hence it does not exist". Sanjuro is the same. Frost is the same. Lkfmdc is the same. Then everyone hides their cluelessness behind stupid posts that deal with everything but the actual subject matter.

Yet others have managed to discuss relevant points with me here. WHY?

HW108

[Hardwork108]

Now, that would be telling...
Whoever told you is as clueless about where I live as you are about Chow Gar internal practices.LOL.


By the way, you sure its Chow gar and not Jow Ga that you're trying to nutride this time?

It is Chow Gar for sure. However,feel free to do what many Jack of all trades like yourself do by inventing your own style of Mantis and call it "Jaw" Gar. You can call yourself a great grand master, too. You can then go on and produce a series of world champions who use their jaws to talk crap about TCMA knowledge they don't possess.

By the way, any new on answering my questions? Oh, I thought not! LOL

It would just be so easy to say that you are not familiar with this methodology and be done with it, but I know that your ego won't let you. No problem. the discussion was "nice" while it lasted.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whoever told you is as clueless about where I live as you are about Chow Gar internal practices.LOL.



It is Chow Gar for sure. However,feel free to do what many Jack of all trades like yourself do by inventing your own style of Mantis and call it "Jaw" Gar. You can call yourself a great grand master, too. You can then go on and produce a series of world champions who use their jaws to talk crap about TCMA knowledge they don't possess.

By the way, any new on answering my questions? Oh, I thought not! LOL

It would just be so easy to say that you are not familiar with this methodology and be done with it, but I know that your ego won't let you. No problem. the discussion was "nice" while it lasted.:rolleyes:



Are you coming on to me again??
Dude, seriously now.
You need to stop drink the water over there in Colombia.

[Dragonzbane76]

I will say that I have no problem with what you guys practice and I respect your choices of MA. I know that whatever you guys practice will need your time and dedication. What I don't respect is some of you pretending to know stuff that you have no clue about and on top of that a few go on to even criticize and ridicule people who know more than you.

The segment that I quoted above from your previous post implies, again, "I don't know about this methodology, hence it does not exist". Sanjuro is the same. Frost is the same. Lkfmdc is the same. Then everyone hides their cluelessness behind stupid posts that deal with everything but the actual subject matter.

Yet others have managed to discuss relevant points with me here. WHY?

what ever makes you happy. the street goes both ways is all i'm stating. don't look down upon those that practice other MA's. yes there are those that will criticize u but hell this is the internet it happens. once some MMA "meathead " says something to you, you automatically put everyone else that does that into your catagory of no knowledge, you have no concept type stuff.

with the list of names you stated there I would hazard to say that they probably forgot more about the TCMA than you ever learned.

I'm glad there are others here to discuss points with you. and there are just as many that would disagree with all your points.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Did you guys talk about circuit building as part of it?



Right. So it's possible to develop muscles functionally w/ weights, provided we're attentive.

Taiji does not really lend itself to HIIT for obvious reasons, but the supplementary exercises do, we talked a bit about that.
There is general ST and then there is "sport specific" ST and the two are very distinct.
Functional strength is also general and specific, if you do NOT develop strength in a specific pathway, regardless of how strong you are in the general sense, you will not be stronger than someone who as that "task specififc" strength that you don't, in that specific task.
EX:
A- can do a 500lbs deadlift, B- can't.
B-can close a capt. of crush #3, A- can't.
Who would you rather shake hands with?
Who would you rather have around if a book case fell on top of you?

[bawang]

i was looking at the qi jiguang 32 posture because a lot of taijiquan posture came from that. i was disappointed because there was no "internal" techniques. it changed my entire view of so called "internal" kung fu

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Functional strength is also general and specific, if you do NOT develop strength in a specific pathway, regardless of how strong you are in the general sense, you will not be stronger than someone who as that "task specififc" strength that you don't, in that specific task.

For a while now, I've been viewing this as a main difference between internal and external training starting points - although a competent curriculum should eventually take you through the opposite training as well.



EX:
A- can do a 500lbs deadlift, B- can't.
B-can close a capt. of crush #3, A- can't.
Who would you rather shake hands with?
Who would you rather have around if a book case fell on top of you?

The guy who knows most about leverage... ;)

Sure, I understand your example. In a way, both A and B developed a specific skill. In this context, A's got the needed skillset. I hesitate to say that A has a more general skill, though... I tend to agree, but there's a lot to be said for having crazy grip in the real world too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For a while now, I've been viewing this as a main difference between internal and external training starting points - although a competent curriculum should eventually take you through the opposite training as well.



The guy who knows most about leverage... ;)

Sure, I understand your example. In a way, both A and B developed a specific skill. In this context, A's got the needed skillset. I hesitate to say that A has a more general skill, though... I tend to agree, but there's a lot to be said for having crazy grip in the real world too.

Whether grip strength is more valuable than DL strength is irrelevant ( though I don;t know any DL's that do NOT have great grip strength too, for obvious reasons).
The example was one of specificity.
If a person is not used to doing "A", no matter how in shape they may be, compared to someone that does "A" reguarly, they won't be as good period.

A marathon runner will Gas doing a grappling session just as easy as someone that can't run 15 min.

Specificity is the key to fine motor skills.

To say that some "weight lifter" goes into a Taiji kwoon and is stiff and weak compared to the Sifu is like saying that Taiji make people weak because they can't DL 300lbs.
Context.
To say that weight lifting is detrimental to IMA without understanding ANYTHING about the MANY types of ST is also pointless.

[bawang]

To say that some "weight lifter" goes into a Taiji kwoon and is stiff and weak compared to the Sifu is like saying that Taiji make people weak because they can't DL 300lbs.

yang luchan had to lift at least 200 ish pounds to join imperial guard, that was the minimum

[sanjuro_ronin]

yang luchan had to lift at least 200 ish pounds to join imperial guard, that was the minimum

I didn't know the imperial princess what that fat.
:D

[bawang]

have u seen old photos of the emperess dowager? she looks like jabba the hut

[sanjuro_ronin]

have u seen old photos of the emperess dowager? she looks like jabba the hut

Some guys are into the fatties, like Mr.Youknowwho, sure the fatties are "hardwork" but for some it just means more to love !
:D

[bawang]

i dont see why u guys argued so much with hardwork about internal kung fu when he doesnt actually train internal kung fu
sure it makes ur ego feel good talking down to a retard but u can spend time doing better things like training the iron fist or dragging a giant millstone with your testicles

[sanjuro_ronin]

i dont see why u guys argued so much with hardwork about internal kung fu when he doesnt actually train internal kung fu
sure it makes ur ego feel good talking down to a retard but u can spend time doing better things like training the iron fist or dragging a giant millstone with your testicles

How can one argue with such logic ?

[Hardwork108]

what ever makes you happy. the street goes both ways is all i'm stating.
Sorry, but that is not all that you are stating. You are unfamiliar with the methodology that I was discussing and you make the wrong assumptions about it.

Then you went on to make the wrong assumptions about me and even about YOURSELF, by assuming that just because you have been "around the block" a few times, then there was nothing else for you to learn or at least there was nothing that you were not unfamiliar with.

Furthermore, you (and other "wounded" cross trainers) went on to read things into my post that were simply not there: "So you say you are the only one who practices real kung fu", "your kung fu is good all other kung fu is bad","You say that weight training is no good", etc. etc. All groundless assumptions coming from cross trainers who apparently are not willing to accept that as far as TCMAs are concerned there are a mountain of methodologies they are unaware of.


don't look down upon those that practice other MA's.
There we go again. Keep repeating the lie hoping that some people will eventually believe you. In the very post that you are replying to here I stated that if you are happy with what you do then I am happy too.

So again, I don't look down on other MAs I look down on other MA-ists who make clueless comments regarding TCMAs that they are not familiar with, while they are not man enough to admit their unfamiliarity.


yes there are those that will criticize u but hell this is the internet it happens.
I know it happens and it is acceptable. If no one criticizes us then we may never learn anything new. The problems arise when people criticize you, using clueless assumptions, not to mention their personal insecurities, as a base for their criticisms.


once some MMA "meathead "say something to you
You have to be more specific because the internet is full of MMA meat heads. Luckily there those MMA-ists with whom one can also have an intelligent MA discussion with as they are genuine and honest people. So, they are not all "bad".


you automatically put everyone else that does that into your catagory of no knowledge,
NO, they go into my category of no knowledge when they make clueless comments and give uninformed opinions about TCMA methodologies that they are not familiar with. I don' know how many times I have to repeat this fact before it sinks in!!!


with the list of names you stated there I would hazard to say that they probably forgot more about the TCMA than you ever learned.
Yet, they were completely unaware and clueless about the methodology that was being discussed and not a single one was man enough to admit it. Talk about "warrior spirit". LOL.

So you can "hazard" all the guesses you want but I would say that your guesses have not worked for you, nor your cross training colleagues, regarding the subject matter being discussed. So perhaps instead of going through life guessing about the "unknown" you can instead research and study them!

That way you won't end up taking sides with people who have "forgot" more about the TCMAs than they themselves have learned! LOL


I'm glad there are others here to discuss points with you. and there are just as many that would disagree with all your points.

What you have failed to notice is the fact that conditions for a healthy discussion are not limited to discussing with people who agree with each other, as none of the posters who actually bothered to discuss the matter with me agreed with me on every point,

However, these people had an actual TCMA point of reference and relevant knowledge to have discussed that given methodology, even if they were themselves not to familiar with it. See the difference?

That is why I was able to discuss it with certain members here while others with "decades of experience" were running around mis-reading my posts and making clueless assumptions and misrepresentations of what I had written.

HW108

[Hardwork108]

....dragging a giant millstone with your testicles
Is that how you initially got your brain damage? :rolleyes:

Bawang, I tried to create some decent dialogue with you before but you insist on entering threads and making unprovoked attacks about people you know nothing about who happen to "disagree" with you about methodologies you are clueless about (and I don't care what your uncle teaches you [and it is not good manners, for sure]as it is not what was being discussed here!!!). so, I did my best with you now you can continue to act like an @ss and lets face it, acting like a jack@ss will keep you in good company here, LO,Lolololol.

HW108

PS, And again (more repetitions for the brain damaged), no one says that there are no weight training practices in TCMAs!!!!!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

i dont see why u guys argued so much with hardwork about internal kung fu when he doesnt actually train internal kung fu
sure it makes ur ego feel good talking down to a retard but u can spend time doing better things like training the iron fist or dragging a giant millstone with your testicles

Think i will step outta this conversation with the above statement. It does make sense.

have at it HW8.. eventually you'll be talking with yourself. :)

[Hardwork108]

Think i will step outta this conversation with the above statement. It does make sense.
IMHO, you should not have stepped into this conversation to start with.


have at it HW8.. eventually you'll be talking with yourself.

You mean I haven't been talking to myself enough (for the most part) already? LOL!

[Dragonzbane76]

You mean I haven't been talking to myself enough (for the most part) already? LOL!

can't resist that last word can you?

your right every other single person is wrong good enough for you?

[Hardwork108]

can't resist that last word can you?
Why blame me for all the laughter this forum is providing? LOL


your right every other single person is wrong good enough for you?

IMHO, Read:

(Mcdojo phenomenom) + (Secretive sifus) + ("Irrelevant" cross training) + (not so intelligent MA-ists) = 97%plus Cluelessness regarding the TCMA subject discussed in this thread.


See, I have even created a formula for you Modern Scientific types! LOL

HW1O8

[Dragonzbane76]

preach on preacherman preach on:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

preach on preacherman preach on:rolleyes:

You misunderstand. I am not preaching. I merely showed an unusual and valid internal TCMA approach and most of you turned it into a crapfest out of your own disillusions of knowledge and later on, out of your own insecurties.

As always, all I say is, this is it, take it or leave it, I just presented a new "door" for you. How far you take it is up to you.

Furthermore, "Preaching" about any subject to people who have no intellectual point of reference on that very subject, is inutile. ;)

HW108
PS. I hope that you appreciate my efforts to hold back my laughter when answering your latest gem of a post!

[Dragonzbane76]

You misunderstand. I am not preaching. I merely showed an unusual and valid internal TCMA approach and most of you turned it into a crapfest out of your own disillusions of knowledge and later on, out of your own insecurties.

As always, all I say is, this is it, take it or leave it, I just presented a new "door" for you. How far you take it is up to you.

Furthermore, "Preaching" about any subject to people who have no intellectual point of reference on that very subject, is inutile.

HW108
PS. I hope that you appreciate my efforts to hold back my laughter when answering your latest gem of a post!

wow lol...
you really need a new approach to life it that's the limit of your day.

[Hardwork108]

wow lol...
you really need a new approach to life it that's the limit of your day.

:confused:

LOL!

[Frost]

Thanks for proving my point, David was NOT ridiculed, his views were ( if that).
That saved me some searching time, very sweet of you.
:D

Good lord I have only just read this thread, anytime I see his name on a thread I tend to skip it, but personally I disagreed with what David was saying and used humour when I thought he was being plain silly, but ridiculed… this coming from someone who like to call everyone clueless…..!

[Frost]

Sure, which ST protocol and which of Chow gars "aims" are you referring to?

Did he every come back to you on this?

[Frost]

Oh and since this was originally about chimps….. one reson they are said to be stronger according to the latest findings is because their muscular architecture is different from ours, certain studies have shown our muscle fibers are smaller and weaker than there’s. up to an 8th of the size. In addition it has also been argued that apes have less grey matter in their spinal cords than humans have. More grey matter in humans means more motor neurons, and more muscle control. This means humans have more fine motor control allowing us to perform delicate tasks such as manipulate small objects, make complex tools or throw accurately but also prevents us from performing great feats of strength
On the other hand, since chimps have fewer motor neurons, each neuron triggers a higher number of muscle fibers, its more of an all or nothing approach

Or it could be because I have been giving them Olympic lifting lessons :o)

[Dragonzbane76]

Or it could be because I have been giving them Olympic lifting lessons )

could be that or the cross training drills i'm putting them through might have something to do with it as well. :)

[Hardwork108]

Did he every come back to you on this?
Sanjuro's question was an escape tactic.

I did come back at him by telling him to talk about any weight training methodology or as I put it, "go crazy".

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=972781&postcount=37

and here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=972796&postcount=44

Of course, he then used another escape tactic by pretending that I was "coming on to him". LOL.

It would be so much less humiliating for him just to say that he was not familiar with that particular Chow Gar methodology, but no, he keeps on pretending that not only he is a jack of all trades but also master of all trades too....LOL. Very sad!

You guys should defeat your own d@mn egos before worrying about defeating other MA-ists!


Anyway I am still waiting for him to come back to me but he won't because he is not familiar with that particular Chow Gar methodology, just like you aren't, but none of you have the honesty nor the self confidence to say so. So you criticize and even give advice about a way of practice that you know nothing about.

Of course, I am not discounting the possiblility that Sanjuro will come back with a general, but clueless, statement (just like he so often does to look credible, LOL) after a bout of Googling!

HW108

[Hardwork108]

Oh and since this was originally about chimps….. one reson they are said to be stronger according to the latest findings is because their muscular architecture is different from ours, certain studies have shown our muscle fibers are smaller and weaker than there’s. up to an 8th of the size. In addition it has also been argued that apes have less grey matter in their spinal cords than humans have. More grey matter in humans means more motor neurons, and more muscle control. This means humans have more fine motor control allowing us to perform delicate tasks such as manipulate small objects, make complex tools or throw accurately but also prevents us from performing great feats of strength
On the other hand, since chimps have fewer motor neurons, each neuron triggers a higher number of muscle fibers, its more of an all or nothing approach

Or it could be because I have been giving them Olympic lifting lessons :o)

Fair enough, but there is another factor that makes these animals stronger or more efficient in issuing strength and power (of course, I am not trying to take away credit from your hard efforts in teaching them Olympic weight lifting techniques :D).

HW108

[Hardwork108]

could be that or the cross training drills i'm putting them through might have something to do with it as well. :)

I doubt it. It is probably confusing them more than usual. Soon they will be posting their kung fu "knowledge" in internet forums just like the rest of the "I know every thing because I cross train in everything" ,Kung fu- clueless, MA-ists.....LOL.

Just look at this forum and you will see what I mean.;)

HW108

[Dragonzbane76]

I doubt it. It is probably confusing them more than usual. Soon they will be posting their kung fu "knowledge" in internet forums just like the rest of the "I know every thing because I cross train in everything" ,Kung fu- clueless, MA-ists.....LOL.

Just look at this forum and you will see what I mean.

speaking of mindless chimps...

did you finally perfect your fireball/chi powers enough to not have to answer us clueless masses with your boundless knowledge of the fighting terrain? I wish you would hurry up...:)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Anyway I am still waiting for him to come back to me but he won't because he is not familiar with that particular Chow Gar methodology, just like you aren't, but none of you have the honesty nor the self confidence to say so.
HW108

You know what: F*ck you. I don't give a sh*t what you think about my training, or about other people's training, or even about your own goddammed training.

What I DO give a sh*t about, though, is bullsh*t statements like the one you just made, about none of us having the honesty nor the self confidence to admit ignorance. I don't care if you meant "just person X and just person Y"; what you wrote includes everyone on this thread, and you KNOW it.

And that means it includes me. And you and I both know what the f*ck I have to say about that.

You know why I don't get on other people's backs about sh*t like this? 'Cause they have the courtesy to keep their problems with you out of their replies to me. They don't go around making insulting blanket statements - they use words like "some" and "many" and "most," more than words like "any" and "every" and "all." Still, if anyone pulled the sh*t you were pulling in the way you were pulling it with me, I'd be the same with them.

So f*ck you for calling me dishonest or lacking in self-confidence. F*ck you for continuing to fan the flames of arrogance and contempt. You can be interesting to chat with, but if having a reasonable conversation with you constantly requires having to deal with these kinds of A$$ statements and attitudes, then I'd rather avoid conversing with you altogether.

[Hardwork108]

You know what: F*ck you. I don't give a sh*t what you think about my training, or about other people's training, or even about your own goddammed training.

What I DO give a sh*t about, though, is bullsh*t statements like the one you just made, about none of us having the honesty nor the self confidence to admit ignorance. I don't care if you meant "just person X and just person Y"; what you wrote includes everyone on this thread, and you KNOW it.

And that means it includes me. And you and I both know what the f*ck I have to say about that.

You know why I don't get on other people's backs about sh*t like this? 'Cause they have the courtesy to keep their problems with you out of their replies to me. They don't go around making insulting blanket statements - they use words like "some" and "many" and "most," more than words like "any" and "every" and "all." Still, if anyone pulled the sh*t you were pulling in the way you were pulling it with me, I'd be the same with them.

So f*ck you for calling me dishonest or lacking in self-confidence. F*ck you for continuing to fan the flames of arrogance and contempt. You can be interesting to chat with, but if having a reasonable conversation with you constantly requires having to deal with these kinds of A$$ statements and attitudes, then I'd rather avoid conversing with you altogether.

Hey cool down. You were not the subject matter of my post. The subject matter of my post were the people who ridiculed the poster "David" and his lineage of Chow Gar's approach to power/strength building.

I will add that you not being familiar with that particular methodology does not make you an object of negativity from me. Nobody is familiar with every TCMA methodology under the sun. Not you, not me and certainly not any of the cross training know it alls here. However, you (and Ten Tigers) managed to DISCUSS the matter with relevance where as others here were defending egos using their usual clueless angle.

Or are you just having a bad day?:confused:

HW108

[Hardwork108]

speaking of mindless chimps...
Leave the chimps alone, let them concentrate on their Olympic weight training. Some say that this will help their kung fu.


did you finally perfect your fireball/chi powers enough to not have to answer us clueless masses with your boundless knowledge of the fighting terrain?

None of us have boundless knowledge but it is worth remembering that each one of us has knowledge that is relevant to what we specialize in. So we should all know our limits and boundaries, specially when it comes to giving opinion or criticizing unfamiliar methodologies that others may have actual experience in, and hence understanding of.


I wish you would hurry up...:)
See, I was fast as a flash!:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Or are you just having a bad day?:confused:
HW108

It's Monday, and I'm trying to quit smoking. I fail for having started. Here's to hoping I can win and quit.

That does NOT excuse the fact that when you make blanket statements such as the one above on a forum, you blanket everyone, including both TenTigers and I, and anyone else who doesn't deserve it.

Do you see why this is pi$$ing me off? Even without the quitting smoking? Up to this point, have you not seen how statements like that might be interpreted by others? Maybe TenTigers and others won't say anything about it, but it's likely that if you keep sh!t like that up, they're not gonna be all that keen on getting into conversations with you. So YOU cool it, unless you want to spend the rest of your time on this forum alienating everyone.

Back to Kung Fu.

Here's a question: what kind of personal preparation is required by your lineage before beginning postural sinew/tendon training? Is there any meditation, or relaxed alignment exercises, or breathing progressions to be done beforehand? Are there any combatives taught prior to sinew/tendon changing?

[Hardwork108]

It's Monday, and I'm trying to quit smoking. I fail for having started. Here's to hoping I can win and quit.
I hope that you succeed as you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by quitting.


That does NOT excuse the fact that when you make blanket statements such as the one above on a forum, you blanket everyone, including both TenTigers and I, and anyone else who doesn't deserve it.
Sorry, the blanket statement was aimed at people that blindly criticized the approach without having a clue about that particular methodology, and even went on to give "weight lifting" advice.

I suspect that you and Ten Tigers were not familiar with it either but so what? There are many methodologies that I am not familiar with either (Are we going to have some knucklehead quote that last sentence and say, "hey HW admits that he doesn't know certain things, that puts us ahead of him because we know everything" LOL), . That is how life is.

I believe that there are very few people who are familiar with all the TCMA methodologies on this planet. I don't believe that you and Ten Tigers are pretending to be internal grand masters either. So, why take offence? You discussed it intelligently. Wether you believe in its validity or not is immaterial as you did not ridicule it, nor make any clueless comments. Furthermore, perhaps one day you will change your minds through personal experience or perhaps not.

The fact is you discussed the matter whereas others with "decades" of experience were being pompously insecure and were generally pi$$ing against the wind.


Do you see why this is pi$$ing me off?

What I see may not be the what you want me to see.;)


Even without the quitting smoking? Up to this point, have you not seen how statements like that might be interpreted by others?

Well I don't. There are "others" here who get insecure and attack every time they are presented with methodologies they do not understand!

They do so because they are too insecure and afraid to admit that they are unfamiliar about certain methodologies. It is an EGO thing. Their "decades" of experience and "rich" MA resumés have not helped these poor souls to defeat their own egos. Kind of ironic from a deeper TCMA perspective, if I do say so myself.

There are other, "others" here that ridicule one for being honest enough for saying what he does not know (read: Sanjuro ronin). Then they turn around and ridicule the same person for knowing something they don't know, because they need to project an all knowing image to the rest of the forum posters, so as to fill in emotional and psychological gaps that their years of cross training has failed to do.

What I am saying is that there is a lot in TCMAs that we don't know, no matter what our egos tell us. There are masters out there ( real ones and not internet forum kick boxers) that have been training their given art for maybe 4, 5 or more decades and have a knowledge base that we can only dream about but some of them are humble enough to say that they are still learning and that there is a lot more to learn.

Yet we have Jack of all trades, "know it alls" who say that they have figured out the TCMAs and there is nothing they don't know. Of course, when pushed to show their knowledge they will change the subject (read: Sanjuro and a few others).

I am mentioning these people because they are relevant to our discussion!!!!

So, I am saying that if you see insults in what I write then it is in your own head. I have said this before regarding this subject. I (and David) hinted at a lesser known but valid and POWERFUL TCMA methodology. Either one can take it or leave it. Ultimately one will know the value of this by doing it himself.


Maybe TenTigers and others won't say anything about it, but it's likely that if you keep sh!t like that up, they're not gonna be all that keen on getting into conversations with you. So YOU cool it, unless you want to spend the rest of your time on this forum alienating everyone.
Forums such as this are for us to give info (admittedly, up to a point!) and discuss relevant topics. What I won't stand for is for Tae Kwon Do experts and/or kickboxers and in general, people with questionable TCMA knowledge bases criticizing TCMA methodologies that they are evidently and BEYOND DOUBT clueless about!!!

There are many people who search the internet to get an idea about TCMA training and they will not need to be told about the benefits of Olympic weight training for Chow Gar practice by what seemed to be the clueless majority (include the Mcdojo phenomenom in this), who had the person, David, who had the ACTUAL experience of the authentic Chow Gar methodology, put on the defensive, by their idiotic posts!!!!


Back to Kung Fu.

Here's a question: what kind of personal preparation is required by your lineage before beginning postural sinew/tendon training? Is there any meditation, or relaxed alignment exercises, or breathing progressions to be done beforehand?

All I am able to say is that there are some distinct for the style stretching and internal training exercises. There is standing stillness exercise as well.




Are there any combatives taught prior to sinew/tendon changing?

No, and with good reason!

HW108

[Frost]

Sanjuro's question was an escape tactic.

I did come back at him by telling him to talk about any weight training methodology or as I put it, "go crazy".

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=972781&postcount=37

and here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=972796&postcount=44

Of course, he then used another escape tactic by pretending that I was "coming on to him". LOL.

It would be so much less humiliating for him just to say that he was not familiar with that particular Chow Gar methodology, but no, he keeps on pretending that not only he is a jack of all trades but also master of all trades too....LOL. Very sad!

You guys should defeat your own d@mn egos before worrying about defeating other MA-ists!


Anyway I am still waiting for him to come back to me but he won't because he is not familiar with that particular Chow Gar methodology, just like you aren't, but none of you have the honesty nor the self confidence to say so. So you criticize and even give advice about a way of practice that you know nothing about.

Of course, I am not discounting the possiblility that Sanjuro will come back with a general, but clueless, statement (just like he so often does to look credible, LOL) after a bout of Googling!

HW108


Actually where did I give David advice on chow gar, or even criticise it? he came onto the thread saying the following

Originally Posted by David
“What I'm asking is why do people WASTE TIME on generic muscle-building activities, if not for vanity?”

Originally Posted by David
“A bigger muscle is likely to be an inefficient one: inefficient in power to volume and green in the sense it's half-baked with regards to motor control. A "fully baked" muscle will be smaller and know its place in the symphony of action which is application.”

Originally Posted by David
“If you're too lazy to train your MA, then you could cop out to weights to make yourself feel better about yourself, but it won't help you fight.”

Originally Posted by David
“modern athletic training is not grown out of traditional knowledge or lines of enquiry, being reduced to some fairly low level themes. Worse than that, it's actually the wrong subject area, because MA isn't athletics. It's bugging me that I can't remember the text (forum post or article) which made sense of it to me. Basically, this article didn't tell me anything new, it just made me feel like an idiot for ignoring what my teacher said to do.”

I argued David was wrong, that people were not wasting their time by lifting weights and gaining muscle, that his view that lifting weights meant you were too lazy and a cop out from actual proper MA training was wrong…. That modern methods are every bit as good as the ancient ones for developing speed power athletic and fighting ability etc. That he was wrong when he said that martial arts is not an athletic endeavour, that his idea of a half baked muscle was just silly.

Where did I mention chow gar, or chow gars methology? I argued his views on modern training methods were wrong and ill informed, I asked what experience he had in modern methods of training to make his views valid, or what experience he had of fighting to be able to say weight lifting won't aid you in a fight…. I said I had knowledge of Ging, iron palm and iron body, I never said I knew chow gar’s methods.

[Dragonzbane76]

haha you guys.....

glad you have met are local Carpetbagger. Argue away... i know i've spent useless time at work arguing my point with him but alas to no avail though. Good luck with it I hope you have better luck than me. :) I'll be in the stands routing.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

What I am saying is that there is a lot in TCMAs that we don't know, no matter what our egos tell us. There are masters out there ( real ones and not internet forum kick boxers) that have been training their given art for maybe 4, 5 or more decades and have a knowledge base that we can only dream about but some of them are humble enough to say that they are still learning and that there is a lot more to learn

Do us all a favor. Find the nearest cliff and throw yourself off. That is all.:)

[lkfmdc]

Why do you guys bother with the retarded trolls on here? It's a complete waste of time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro's man muscles make me hot !!

HW108

Dude, you flirt !!
:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually where did I give David advice on chow gar, or even criticise it? he came onto the thread saying the following

Originally Posted by David
“What I'm asking is why do people WASTE TIME on generic muscle-building activities, if not for vanity?”

Originally Posted by David
“A bigger muscle is likely to be an inefficient one: inefficient in power to volume and green in the sense it's half-baked with regards to motor control. A "fully baked" muscle will be smaller and know its place in the symphony of action which is application.”

Originally Posted by David
“If you're too lazy to train your MA, then you could cop out to weights to make yourself feel better about yourself, but it won't help you fight.”

Originally Posted by David
“modern athletic training is not grown out of traditional knowledge or lines of enquiry, being reduced to some fairly low level themes. Worse than that, it's actually the wrong subject area, because MA isn't athletics. It's bugging me that I can't remember the text (forum post or article) which made sense of it to me. Basically, this article didn't tell me anything new, it just made me feel like an idiot for ignoring what my teacher said to do.”

I argued David was wrong, that people were not wasting their time by lifting weights and gaining muscle, that his view that lifting weights meant you were too lazy and a cop out from actual proper MA training was wrong…. That modern methods are every bit as good as the ancient ones for developing speed power athletic and fighting ability etc. That he was wrong when he said that martial arts is not an athletic endeavour, that his idea of a half baked muscle was just silly.

Where did I mention chow gar, or chow gars methology? I argued his views on modern training methods were wrong and ill informed, I asked what experience he had in modern methods of training to make his views valid, or what experience he had of fighting to be able to say weight lifting won't aid you in a fight…. I said I had knowledge of Ging, iron palm and iron body, I never said I knew chow gar’s methods.

Dude, don't bother, really, just enjoy and have fun.
People will always see what they want to see so as to not shatter their fragile little dress-up larp world.

Besides, you should have seen the pics he sent me in all his spartan glory !
LOL !

[Frost]

Dude, don't bother, really, just enjoy and have fun.
People will always see what they want to see so as to not shatter their fragile little dress-up larp world.

Besides, you should have seen the pics he sent me in all his spartan glory !
LOL !

Dude please its my lunch time! :eek:

the only way to redeem yourself after that horrible mental image is to post a nice picture for us all to drawl over :D

[bawang]

i dont think hes trolling i think he has mental problem
those kind of people try to find sense of power on the internet

whats sad is a lot of us had illusions about kung fu but we move on. i got over it when i was 13 i dont understand how some 30 year old guy can be like that.

[lkfmdc]

i dont think hes trolling i think he has mental problem



end of thread!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude please its my lunch time! :eek:

the only way to redeem yourself after that horrible mental image is to post a nice picture for us all to drawl over :D

Check out all those plastic bottles !
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2293/2195809984_3106d2fc59.jpg?v=0

[sanjuro_ronin]

i dont think hes trolling i think he has mental problem
those kind of people try to find sense of power on the internet

whats sad is a lot of us had illusions about kung fu but we move on. i got over it when i was 13 i dont understand how some 30 year old guy can be like that.

Well, leave it to Bawang to state the truth in this and ruin all our fun !

[Frost]

Check out all those plastic bottles !
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2293/2195809984_3106d2fc59.jpg?v=0

good god your internet fu is powerful

[bawang]

http://pic.dbw.cn/0/01/17/28/1172878_489135.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://pic.dbw.cn/0/01/17/28/1172878_489135.jpg

Hey, HW8 sent you his pic too?
Now I am jealous !!
:mad:

[Dragonzbane76]

lol just lol:p

[taai gihk yahn]

Originally Posted by David
“What I'm asking is why do people WASTE TIME on generic muscle-building activities, if not for vanity?”
this is nothing more than projection of David' own internal bias - who is he to decide that "vanity" is the driving force for "generic" (whatever that means) muscle building? and why is it a "waste of time"? the implication is that he is not vain and is spending his own time wisely, because he has chosen not to pursue "generic" muscle building; unfortunately, it just makes him look like an asz-hole more than anything else



Originally Posted by David
“A bigger muscle is likely to be an inefficient one: inefficient in power to volume and green in the sense it's half-baked with regards to motor control. A "fully baked" muscle will be smaller and know its place in the symphony of action which is application.”
people who mix physiology terms (talking about muscle mass relative to efficiency) w/metaphorical imagery (muscle being "half-baked" and "symphony" of movement), should be taken out and smacked around, because it's intellectually dishonest: don't use metaphor to try to compensate for your lack of physiology knowledge;



Originally Posted by David
“If you're too lazy to train your MA, then you could cop out to weights to make yourself feel better about yourself, but it won't help you fight.”
right, because training weights is just the epitome of laziness...and having increased muscle strength certainly is of no use for fighting at all...:rolleyes:


Originally Posted by David
“modern athletic training is not grown out of traditional knowledge or lines of enquiry, being reduced to some fairly low level themes. Worse than that, it's actually the wrong subject area, because MA isn't athletics. It's bugging me that I can't remember the text (forum post or article) which made sense of it to me. Basically, this article didn't tell me anything new, it just made me feel like an idiot for ignoring what my teacher said to do.”
now he's just drunk - he has NO IDEA what modern athletic training has "grown" out of - his implication is that it sprung ex nihilo into existence at some point - he should do a little research before making ridiculous statements...

not saying anything about Chow Ga, but in regards to the above, this guy has basically bought into a bunch of myths that he employs to make him feel secure about his personal training regimen; why can't he just stick to what he knows instead of projecting into areas in which he lacks knowledge?

[sanjuro_ronin]

this is nothing more than projection of David' own internal bias - who is he to decide that "vanity" is the driving force for "generic" (whatever that means) muscle building? and why is it a "waste of time"? the implication is that he is not vain and is spending his own time wisely, because he has chosen not to pursue "generic" muscle building; unfortunately, it just makes him look like an asz-hole more than anything else



people who mix physiology terms (talking about muscle mass relative to efficiency) w/metaphorical imagery (muscle being "half-baked" and "symphony" of movement), should be taken out and smacked around, because it's intellectually dishonest: don't use metaphor to try to compensate for your lack of physiology knowledge;



right, because training weights is just the epitome of laziness...and having increased muscle strength certainly is of no use for fighting at all...:rolleyes:


now he's just drunk - he has NO IDEA what modern athletic training has "grown" out of - his implication is that it sprung ex nihilo into existence at some point - he should do a little research before making ridiculous statements...

not saying anything about Chow Ga, but in regards to the above, this guy has basically bought into a bunch of myths that he employs to make him feel secure about his personal training regimen; why can't he just stick to what he knows instead of projecting into areas in which he lacks knowledge?

It may well be that he has been fed this **** by his sifu and believes it 100%, in which case they are BOTH to blame.
But only David can say for sure where he got these erroneous views.

[Hardwork108]

Why do you guys bother with the retarded trolls on here? It's a complete waste of time.

They bother with you because they find you amazing. I mean to have a genuine master such as CTS teaching you for, here we go again, "decades" and then seeing you end up as one of New York's dime a dozen kick boxing coaches, will always amaze them , making you a beacon for all MA retards out there, ;)

HW108

[Hardwork108]

Actually where did I give David advice on chow gar, or even criticise it? he came onto the thread saying the following

Originally Posted by David
“What I'm asking is why do people WASTE TIME on generic muscle-building activities, if not for vanity?”

Originally Posted by David
“A bigger muscle is likely to be an inefficient one: inefficient in power to volume and green in the sense it's half-baked with regards to motor control. A "fully baked" muscle will be smaller and know its place in the symphony of action which is application.”

Originally Posted by David
“If you're too lazy to train your MA, then you could cop out to weights to make yourself feel better about yourself, but it won't help you fight.”

Originally Posted by David
“modern athletic training is not grown out of traditional knowledge or lines of enquiry, being reduced to some fairly low level themes. Worse than that, it's actually the wrong subject area, because MA isn't athletics. It's bugging me that I can't remember the text (forum post or article) which made sense of it to me. Basically, this article didn't tell me anything new, it just made me feel like an idiot for ignoring what my teacher said to do.”

I argued David was wrong, that people were not wasting their time by lifting weights and gaining muscle, that his view that lifting weights meant you were too lazy and a cop out from actual proper MA training was wrong…. That modern methods are every bit as good as the ancient ones for developing speed power athletic and fighting ability etc. That he was wrong when he said that martial arts is not an athletic endeavour, that his idea of a half baked muscle was just silly.

Where did I mention chow gar, or chow gars methology? I argued his views on modern training methods were wrong and ill informed, I asked what experience he had in modern methods of training to make his views valid, or what experience he had of fighting to be able to say weight lifting won't aid you in a fight…. I said I had knowledge of Ging, iron palm and iron body, I never said I knew chow gar’s methods.

No doubt that David could have presented his case better for you guys. However, the fact remains that you would not have responded to him the way you did if you had even the minute familiarity with the methodology he was describing. I did because I have experience of that system. Furthermore, the Wing Chun lineage that I practice does not practice weight training as such. So, to me this "phenomenom" is not so strange.

Others here have no clue about this type of methodologies and hence the aggressive/defensive/insecure attitude towards David and then me. And usually, it is always the same people, that is, the forum's cross training, "modern is better" majority and their hangers on!

Here is my response to Sanjuro when he denied that any one had ridiculed David:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=972765&postcount=29

Don' t blame me for seeing ridicule in those posts!


HW108

[Hardwork108]

Do us all a favor. Find the nearest cliff and throw yourself off. That is all.:)

Do me a favor, make sure you are standing under that cliff when I throw myself down.:)

HW108
PS. What part of my post you quoted you found so out of this world? Or do you think that you have figured out all TCMA training under the sun and gone to "higher" things? If so, then you are in good (knucklehead) company, LOl,lol,lol

[Hardwork108]

Dude, you flirt !!
:p

Sanjuro has muscles?:confused:

Beach muscles?:confused:

Your vanity trickling through? I guess David was not so off the mark after all, LOL

[Lucas]

i was hanging out with bawang last weekend, and he does indeed look like that.

he wouldnt even put a shirt on when we went to get food at Big Hungry Al's Gator Farm. He just pointed at the swamp and said, "ill take that one"

[Hardwork108]

Dude, don't bother, really, just enjoy and have fun.
People will always see what they want to see so as to not shatter their fragile little dress-up larp world.

That is more or less what someone said when they PMed me about me interacting with you clueless kickboxers here. He said that the "core" of your training mindsets was erroneous, hence I was wasting my time.


Besides, you should have seen the pics he sent me in all his spartan glory !
LOL !

And Sanjuro's h0mosexual fantasies continue.....LOL.....hurry up post some pictures of sexy women so as to convince every one (and yourself) here that you are a heterosexual....LOL

[Hardwork108]

i was hanging out with bawang last weekend, and he does indeed look like that.

he wouldnt even put a shirt on when we went to get food at Big Hungry Al's Gator Farm. He just pointed at the swamp and said, "ill take that one"

Did he bring his tai chi balls?

[Hardwork108]

It may well be that he has been fed this **** by his sifu and believes it 100%, in which case they are BOTH to blame.
But only David can say for sure where he got these erroneous views.

Is Clueless Sanjuro making negative insinuations about David Ip, the heir to the Chow Gar lineage?

Boy, it would be so easy for you guys to just say that you are unfamiliar with this methodology's approach to strength/power building, but yet your d@mn egos don't let you. And every time you attempt to "win", you come up with more clueless and idiotic comments. Let it go, just let it go as you have absolutely no base of reference !!!

[Hardwork108]

i dont think hes trolling i think he has mental problem
those kind of people try to find sense of power on the internet

whats sad is a lot of us had illusions about kung fu but we move on. i got over it when i was 13 i dont understand how some 30 year old guy can be like that.

Bawang, just go and play with your Tai Chi balls. Your posts are becoming more idiotic as you attempt to come off "intelligent".

YOu have no idea of the methodology that is being discussed. If you are really interested then enquire about the Hakka arts with people who may know about them personally and ask them about their tendon development methodology. Even then you may come across some who use weights very "carefully" in their methodology. You may also come across yet others who will use some kind of weights to TEST their results (strength,body connectivity, etc) after initially doing without them.

Finally, you should come across people who do not use weight training at all in their strength building methodology. Please, please, do be polite in your enquiries as you would not want those guys to stick your taji ji balls up your @ss as this might give you further brain damage (that you can't afford)!

And to finish, this is a baguazhang master based in China. Read the interview and see for yourself. Feel free to email him and tell him that he has mental problems too:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

HW108

[Frost]

No doubt that David could have presented his case better for you guys. However, the fact remains that you would not have responded to him the way you did if you had even the minute familiarity with the methodology he was describing. I did because I have experience of that system. Furthermore, the Wing Chun lineage that I practice does not practice weight training as such. So, to me this "phenomenom" is not so strange.

Others here have no clue about this type of methodologies and hence the aggressive/defensive/insecure attitude towards David and then me. And usually, it is always the same people, that is, the forum's cross training, "modern is better" majority and their hangers on!

Here is my response to Sanjuro when he denied that any one had ridiculed David:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=972765&postcount=29

Don' t blame me for seeing ridicule in those posts!


HW108

He wasn’t describing a metholody he was sounding off about how bad, useless and ignorant modern training methods were, there is a difference between those two or are you too daft to notice? My laugh out loud comments were in relation to the ridiculous statements I quoted above, and I feel quite justified given his silly uninformed and plain wrong statements about modern methods

[Frost]

Is Clueless Sanjuro making negative insinuations about David Ip, the heir to the Chow Gar lineage?

Boy, it would be so easy for you guys to just say that you are unfamiliar with this methodology's approach to strength/power building, but yet your d@mn egos don't let you. And every time you attempt to "win", you come up with more clueless and idiotic comments. Let it go, just let it go as you have absolutely no base of reference !!!

Who needs a base of reference to talk about how wrong both of them are about modern weight training methods? We are not saying chow gars ways of doing things are wrong/ bad etc… you know why…. Because he never spoke about them he was too busy sounding off about weight training and modern methods of training. We don’t have to understand his reasoning/methology behind his statements to know and say they are wrong

[Dragonzbane76]

Do me a favor, make sure you are standing under that cliff when I throw myself down

can i watch it would make my day really it would. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is Clueless Sanjuro making negative insinuations about David Ip, the heir to the Chow Gar lineage?

Boy, it would be so easy for you guys to just say that you are unfamiliar with this methodology's approach to strength/power building, but yet your d@mn egos don't let you. And every time you attempt to "win", you come up with more clueless and idiotic comments. Let it go, just let it go as you have absolutely no base of reference !!!

You saucy tart, still trying to sweet talk me eh?

[Hardwork108]

You saucy tart, still trying to sweet talk me eh?

That is it, keep trying to divert attention from your cluelessness....:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is it, keep trying to divert attention from your cluelessness....:rolleyes:

In all your spartan glory :D

[Hardwork108]

can i watch it would make my day really it would. :rolleyes:

Of course you can watch. Just stand under the cliff next to Iron Eagle. You will have the best view and I, in turn, will have a cushier landing. :D

[Dragonzbane76]

for you to plumet off a cliff and smash into us below killing yourself i would think this a justice to humanity and willingly take the sacrifice for the sake of cleaning up the gene pool.