I think forms rule

[Lucas]

Okay, this is actually just a jab at Sanjuro :p

just wanted to give our new resident mod here some work ! :eek:

haha

:D

[lkfmdc]

meh, if you'd been exposed to real MMA training you wouldn't post your glorified kung fu crap on here, I tell ya!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay, this is actually just a jab at Sanjuro :p

just wanted to give our new resident mod here some work ! :eek:

haha

:D

I agree.

just a side question, you're not coming on to me too like that other guy, are you?
Cause I am as straight as Sean Connery !!

[goju]

I agree.

just a side question, you're not coming on to me too like that other guy, are you?
Cause I am as straight as "Sean Connery" !!

yeah thats strait alright

[Dragonzbane76]

meh, if you'd been exposed to real MMA training you wouldn't post your glorified kung fu crap on here, I tell ya!

If only some people would understand this... :)

[hskwarrior]

I don't know about forms, but i do love the fighting aspect of my crappy kung foo system......lol

[uki]

forms are the flowers that sprout from the seeds of self-expression...

[AdrianK]

forms are the flowers that sprout from the seeds of self-expression...

Ahhh, good old vague and nonsensical sayings. It really feels like a kung fu forum now :D

[David Jamieson]

I find forms useful.

I enjoy practice of them and can readily feel some benefit to my health and understanding of my own body by practice of them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I find forms useful.

I enjoy practice of them and can readily feel some benefit to my health and understanding of my own body by practice of them.

So does pretty much everyone else.
Very few people are against training forms, many may be against the illusions that some profess are the purpose of forms, but all of us tend to agree they have benefits.

[Yum Cha]

I think the underlying thinking is, and please correct me if I'm wrong,

Forms don't teach fighting, fighting teaches fighting? So, if you want to learn how to fight, fight. Fair enough.

PARABLE TIME!!

A Samuri comes to a village and everybody bows, but the oil merchant pouring oil into small containers.

The Samuri is offended and threatens to behead the man if he doesn't bow, and the man says, "I don't need to bow to you and your skill, I can pour oil through the hole in this coin, into my bottle, and not spill a drop." The Samuri watched as he did so, over and over again.

The Samuri then left.

7 years later the Samuri returned, and bowed to the Oil Merchant in recognition of his skill which the Samuri could not reproduce, and was enlightened.

To some, kung fu is about fighting. To others it is about physical skills and the pursuit of perfection in movement and timing. The goal is the pursuit, not the realisation.

--

There are two kinds of mountaineers you'll meet. When your sitting on the top and another climber scuttles up and you ask them, 'So, why'd you climb it?' Most offer the cliche "Because its here", or "I had to add it to my conquests" or the like. Few people answer the obvious, 'for the view.'

I guess you can just say that not everybody has the same motivations.
If your own motivations gain force by the denial of alternatives or by measure against foreign standards, you have no validity other than what you take from others.

[Hardwork108]

Okay, this is actually just a jab at Sanjuro :p

just wanted to give our new resident mod here some work ! :eek:

haha

:D

Forms training can be beneficial if practiced properly, taking account of the various elements within them, and as a part of a holistic kung fu training program that includes conditioning, Iron skills, two man exercises and of course, contact sparring.

I also believe that TCMA school should teach the essential forms of a given system and not cram unnecessary number of such exercises into their curriculum.

HW108

[Yum Cha]

I'll add that not all forms are created equal. Some forms are just choreography. Others have 'more' to offer.

I know for a fact that there are skills I developed via form training, not techniques, but skills, that I could not have developed via free fighting, however, work in free fighting.

Could I have isolated those exercises, taken them out of the forms, practiced them in isolation against bags, explored how they apply to different techniques, then in more live circumstances, shure. I did.

Like I said, its not a technique, its a skill. Something that washes over lots of techniques.

Something you do thousands of times under static circumstances before you even understand what it does and how to use it.

No, never said it was quick, easy or efficient.

[Lee Chiang Po]

When I was a young fellow I had the chance to see a few different things, like a form of karate, that I decided to learn. I quickly learned that it was not much different than my own style. A bit rigid really, but not much different otherwise. Then I went ****her into it and found that it had an unbelievable number of forms. Each were learned in order to advance. Then I realized that these forms were really dependent upon my physical abilities. I am short, have short legs, large upper body and upper body strength. I could not do all the forms and techniques well. I could do a few really well, but not all. Some I could never do because I was limited physically. I have watched a few other different styles and systems and have come to see that they are all pretty much the same in that respect. I would not be able to keep up with the same level of skill as I grew older. I don't really think anyone could. All those old guys in the movies were really 15 year old kids with gray wigs.
Then I come to think that the forms didn't really teach me anything, just had me practicing techniques and such. This is really the way we learn to fight well. Fighting does not teach you much, except that you don't want to get hit in the face. Fighting is just a way of testing what you have already learned. It tells you what works and what don't in a given situation. But fighting never teaches you anything. When you are fighting you do not have time to realize what you are doing or have just done. And after the fight you will remember very little of what took place. It is a very poor learning atmosphere. Forms will get and keep you limber for a while, and it allows you to perfect your use of fighting techniques. And in order to make it worth while, you pretend that you are whipping someone.

[Dragonzbane76]

But fighting never teaches you anything. When you are fighting you do not have time to realize what you are doing or have just done. And after the fight you will remember very little of what took place. It is a very poor learning atmosphere.

When you speak of fighting are you saying fighting like in the street/ring or are you speaking of sparring?

2 different environments.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the underlying thinking is, and please correct me if I'm wrong,

Forms don't teach fighting, fighting teaches fighting? So, if you want to learn how to fight, fight. Fair enough.

PARABLE TIME!!

A Samuri comes to a village and everybody bows, but the oil merchant pouring oil into small containers.

The Samuri is offended and threatens to behead the man if he doesn't bow, and the man says, "I don't need to bow to you and your skill, I can pour oil through the hole in this coin, into my bottle, and not spill a drop." The Samuri watched as he did so, over and over again.

The Samuri then left.

7 years later the Samuri returned, and bowed to the Oil Merchant in recognition of his skill which the Samuri could not reproduce, and was enlightened.

To some, kung fu is about fighting. To others it is about physical skills and the pursuit of perfection in movement and timing. The goal is the pursuit, not the realisation.

--

There are two kinds of mountaineers you'll meet. When your sitting on the top and another climber scuttles up and you ask them, 'So, why'd you climb it?' Most offer the cliche "Because its here", or "I had to add it to my conquests" or the like. Few people answer the obvious, 'for the view.'

I guess you can just say that not everybody has the same motivations.
If your own motivations gain force by the denial of alternatives or by measure against foreign standards, you have no validity other than what you take from others.

Well said Jubei !
:D

[bawang]

chinese kung fu doesnt teach forms. kung fu teaches postures "shi"

1800's kung fu after a 200 year ban is not reliable

[Xiao3 Meng4]

1800's kung fu after a 200 year ban is not reliable

Nice.
________

[uki]

When you speak of fighting are you saying fighting like in the street/ringthe street and the ring are not even comparable nor worthy to be in the same sentence... the ring is for entertainment where "fighters" have to abide by a set of rules and regulations, with the outcome, at times, decided by a panel of judges... again, the street and the ring are entirely different enviroments...


2 different environments.i have clarified the two enviroments for you. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

the street and the ring are not even comparable nor worthy to be in the same sentence... the ring is for entertainment where "fighters" have to abide by a set of rules and regulations, with the outcome, at times, decided by a panel of judges... again, the street and the ring are entirely different enviroments...
i have clarified the two enviroments for you. :p

Uki is 100% correct.
On the street you fight wannabe losers that THINK they can fight, in the ring you fight well trained and conditioned fighters that KNOW how to fight.
:p

[Lucas]

Doesnt Lee Chiang Po generally speak from a life encounter viewpoint and not sport?

[uki]

Uki is 100% correct.there's a good mate. :D


On the street you fight wannabe losers that THINK they can fight, in the ring you fight well trained and conditioned fighters that KNOW how to fight.no wonder winners in the ring don't fight in the street. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

there's a good mate. :D
no wonder winners in the ring don't fight in the street. :p

You need to expand your circle of MA people, you don't seem to know many fighters do you?
And fighting off people trying to steal your mushrooms doesn't count.
:D

[uki]

You need to expand your circle of MA people, you don't seem to know many fighters do you?i work with masons that use block hammers and shovels to lay out would be perps. :)

And fighting off people trying to steal your mushrooms doesn't count.i eat them too fast for anyone to be able to steal them. :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

Doesnt Lee Chiang Po generally speak from a life encounter viewpoint and not sport?

Well, you have me there. Sparring would indeed help you learn to a point. I did some sparring as a kid with my brothers, all larger and stronger than myself. I did learn a lot in putting my technique to test during sparring. The word fighting does not actually equate to me as sparring. So I tend to respond to it in the only way I think. When I think of fighting, I am also thinking it is a situation where you can not afford to lose. The cost would be much greater than just being beaten.
I have a son that is now 43 years of age. I started him at 10 years, and by 21 he was pretty much done. I can not stand up to him any more as he is much stronger and faster. We sparred a lot. But it was not even close to actually fighting. I would never strike him in a way that I could harm him and he would not strike me in such a manner. I considered sport fighting as a young man, but I decided it was not for me. The people that excell at such sports are usually also exceptional, and I am in no way exceptional. Few of us are. And fewer of us will ever become champions of such a sport simply because we are not exceptional.

[Dragonzbane76]

the street and the ring are not even comparable nor worthy to be in the same sentence... the ring is for entertainment where "fighters" have to abide by a set of rules and regulations, with the outcome, at times, decided by a panel of judges... again, the street and the ring are entirely different enviroments...

Quote:
2 different environments.

i have clarified the two enviroments for you.

way to answer someone else's post.

my bad uki should have put 3 different environments my sentence structure was a little off. it should have been street/ring/sparring and 3 different environments but my bad didn't look at post after i typed it. :rolleyes:

arent you late for your masonic mushroom cult of internal masters meeting for juggling someones balls?

[uki]

arent you late for your masonic mushroom cult of internal masters meeting for juggling someones balls?is this where one inserts a mom joke? :p

[Dragonzbane76]

is this where one inserts a mom joke?

wouldn't that be original :cool:

[David Jamieson]

Your avatar sucks dragonzbane. Can't read that dang thing.

[Dragonzbane76]

eh can't enlarge it... i have it from another forum... it's from Montey python. (holy grail) the rabbit. :)