Ronin, how did you evolve?

[Yum Cha]

Firstly, belated congratulations to the new mod of the Southern Forum.

You gave us a nice biography of your 30 years of training.
You started at 10 with Hung, had traditional SPM (my, my) and a mess of Karate as well.

You have also got the MMA experience.

I'm interested to know, as it appears you have foundations in TMA and experience in MMA, how you converted? What carried through, what you abandoned?

What was the best and the worst of your traditional training (Chinese and Japanese) framed against your MMA experience?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Firstly, belated congratulations to the new mod of the Southern Forum.

You gave us a nice biography of your 30 years of training.
You started at 10 with Hung, had traditional SPM (my, my) and a mess of Karate as well.

You have also got the MMA experience.

I'm interested to know, as it appears you have foundations in TMA and experience in MMA, how you converted? What carried through, what you abandoned?

What was the best and the worst of your traditional training (Chinese and Japanese) framed against your MMA experience?

Well, that is a whole "life span" Bro !

My cross training in MA came about like the vast majoroty of people, by necessity.
Geography - you train what you can get to.
As much as some like to rag on people that have a few systems under their jock, the fact is that I would have loved to have done one thing and did it for decades, life would have been much easier.
That was not the case, I have lived in Europe, Asia ( Macao) and N.America and travelled quite a bit, not to mention served in the military.

There was NO conversion to MMA, I am a TMA to the core, MMA was but the venue to test ALL my skills at once.
I had tested my striking in boxing, kyokushin and MT, my grappling in Judo and wrestling, MMA was the next logical test by testing how well I blended them.
I don't think I abandonded anything I have ever learned, though I certainly focus on certain things over others, as we all do.
I always had above average striking power and natural speed, so to this day I prefer striking.
But I was faced early on with the realities of grappling and understood that if I was to defeat a grappler I needed to become one in the sense of "knowing my enemy".

As we progress in our MA journey, we see that there are things we want, if if we don't need them.
SPM came about that way.
Even before I took my first formal lesson I had studied it via video and literature, to get the "jist" of what it was.
Of course the exposure to it was far more intense, yet I recall my teacher ( he was the brother of my HK sifu) saying, " you don't need it, why pursue it?".
Simple, Need was irrelevant, I wanted it because I didn't have it.
I had faced a few "short hand" guys before, as a bouncer I had a run in with a coupled of "pak mei" guys and while I handle them well something told me there was more to it than meets the eye.
I love to learn what I do not know, its just that simple.

I don't recall and "bad" training, though I was exposed to the "too deadly" and the "too secret", but I resolved those issues the "old school way".
It didn't make me popular in some circles, but it allowed me to see the "truth".

[Yum Cha]

Hi Ronin, thanks for putting that out there as a great example of how a life in martial arts can progress over the years.

And also, thanks for confirming my suspicions that you're really a TCMA kinda guy who simply took advantage of the practical opportunities provided to develop your art.

I would have to say, my experiences have likewise been determined by geography as well. I had done the rounds with a bunch of stuff until my late 20's when I got into this stuff. I understand totally what you mean about the 'extra' in SPM and Pak Mei, and I'd have to guess, a few other arts unknown to me.

That was exactly what seduced me as well... and thanks for your obvious note of respect for Pak Mei Pai.

That curiosity thing never really got to me while studying PM, I always felt I had this and that covered, until I got a taste of BJJ.

What I think is really cool is that you can go at 98% all the time and its just friendly practice. The technicality, the practicality, the challenge and the fun. Not so sure I like having a 300lb guy sit on my head and make me tap, but hey, swings and roundabouts.

Unfortunately, the mind is willing, but the body is weak, my joints just don't work like they used to under torque...

You know that movie scene where the U-boat dives to escape the destroyers dropping depth charges. As it dives, the dial goes into the red and all the sudden the hull creaks and pops, steam pipes blow, eventually rivets start flying around - that's me trying to crank on a cradle... Takes a couple of days in dry dock to repair...

So, you wrangled a Pak Mei guy or two while bouncing? There's some in NY, and some in Toronto, Michigan somewhere, Calgary, and Vancouver. Not surprised.

Since they were defeated, they've probably been executed anyhow. Natural selection.

[Yum Cha]

Two things that often put 'practical' martial artists off about traditional arts are the talk about chi, and the secrets, rituals, etc. That seems to be my experience.

There is also a level of competition and speed of learning, but that's more a quantity than quality issue to my mind.

The thing I find about all that 'chi' stuff, is not to listen to the tounge fu, just train, and if you feel something, work it. It is so much simpler than all the BS people lay on it. Its breathing not magic. Its one of those things that the harder you try to understand, the harder it is to figure out. Is it psychological - who cares.

As for the secrets, and rituals, well, aside from the obvious motivational aspect, they are simply things you can't know until you know something else. Its secret not because you can't be told, but because you can't understand. People rabbit on about Pak Mei Ton To, Chum Fa, rise fall swallow spit, like experts, yet they don't really understand until they have the core skills to execute it, which is as obvious to the trained PM eye as pink knickers. Roughly speaking you can see it in a quarter of the PM videos on YouTube, maybe a touch more. Yet, every PM novice these days recites the script. Secrets are secrets because nobody CAN tell you, you have to find your own answer.

Unless of course, you are training with a bunch of commercial wankers, in which case, may God have mercy on your soul...

[Dragonzbane76]

you have to find your own answer.

I think this sums it up. :)

[SPJ]

just have fun.

no need to use qi or secrets/rituals to motivate people.

why you do fencing, judo---kung fu?

b/c they are fun.

when people say that they like to do certain things b/c they are fun. that is it. no need for other add on for motivations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKmJUkYx1Hc

my sister did a lot of line dance because--

it is fun.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeUJWhxIjl0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjB8MdonNnI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyAQ6oBaF6I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1uZkELg5E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXTCWvR9NiU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8f41Asrrm4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKd4oQMhA_Y&feature=related

-----

salsa, cha cha in line dance.

wow.

:cool:

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FyiLEF8Hfk&feature=related

not just professional dancers but all folks may have fun.

my point is

not just professional fighters but all common folks of all ages may also have fun with kung fu.

that is if they know what they are doing.

:cool:

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FyiLEF8Hfk&feature=related

not just professional dancers but all folks may have fun.

my point is

not just professional fighters but all common folks of all ages may also have fun with kung fu.

that is if they know what they are doing.

:cool:

You seem to like your dance.:)

Good point. The problem just seems that there are too many people who have had "fun" with kung fu and gone on to think that they know it more than they actually do.

There are those who want to go the extra mile and go beyond the pseudo, leading to long term results with ESSENCE and REAL ABILITY (lacking in the the above video). Some search for results that parallel the following links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvbN4oSOOc0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek0Nd3dHPQk

I am not pretending that Latin (salsa, in this case) dancing is any where as profound as kung fu training but interesting parallels can be made with TCMAs.

When you see the links provided you will see AUTHENTICITY. The music is not Anglo-fied, to suite the tastes and acceptance of the "clueless";the dancers dance to the music with skills that are beyond what one will see in popular interpretations of salsa. So, no fancy light; no fancy camera work and no fancy stage. Just "KUNG FU".

Salsa is an imported activity in most countries, just like TCMAs and just like TCMAs there is the Mcsalsa phenomenom which so far not many people have admitted to.

That means that there are teachers who are clueless; there are DJs who are clueless and the money making promoters who are clueless. Hence, we have millions of people who think that they are learning to dance or are dancing salsa while they are dancing something else. LOL!

Sorry to side track this thread, but the Latin dance example that you brought up makes for almost a perfect comparison with the current state of the TCMAs [besides, I believe that the thread had run its course].

HW108

[KC Elbows]

You seem to like your dance.:)

Good point. The problem just seems that there are too many people who have had "fun" with kung fu and gone on to think that they know it more than they actually do.

There are those who want to go the extra mile and go beyond the pseudo, leading to long term results with ESSENCE and REAL ABILITY (lacking in the the above video). Some search for results that parallel the following links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvbN4oSOOc0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek0Nd3dHPQk

I am not pretending that Latin (salsa, in this case) dancing is any where as profound as kung fu training but interesting parallels can be made with TCMAs.

When you see the links provided you will see AUTHENTICITY. The music is not Anglo-fied, to suite the tastes and acceptance of the "clueless";the dancers dance to the music with skills that are beyond what one will see in popular interpretations of salsa. So, no fancy light; no fancy camera work and no fancy stage. Just "KUNG FU".

Salsa is an imported activity in most countries, just like TCMAs and just like TCMAs there is the Mcsalsa phenomenom which so far not many people have admitted to.

That means that there are teachers who are clueless; there are DJs who are clueless and the money making promoters who are clueless. Hence, we have millions of people who think that they are learning to dance or are dancing salsa while they are dancing something else. LOL!

Sorry to side track this thread, but the Latin dance example that you brought up makes for almost a perfect comparison with the current state of the TCMAs [besides, I believe that the thread had run its course].

HW108

The problem is, in salsa, what is authentic cannot be defined or agreed upon. What was officially accepted was not all that was there, and what it is now is not always defined by past practices. There is no one salsa. And there never was. The salsa that was officially backed was often backed to support ideas about the cosmic race, but excluded forms of the dance for political reasons more than dance reasons.

It is entirely appropriate that Sanjuro Ronin's thread be about salsa.

[Hardwork108]

The problem is, in salsa, what is authentic cannot be defined or agreed upon. What was officially accepted was not all that was there, and what it is now is not always defined by past practices.

As far as salsa the music is concerned then there are ideas about what is authentic and what is "watered down". Usually, the old Cuban sons, guarachas and guaguancos are regarded as legitimate. What is popularly known as Classic Salsa today refers to the 1970s salsa produced in New York and Puerto Rico. It as the so called Hard sound with vibrant sounds and rich arrangements. [This is the music that you will here in the top legendary clubs here in the world salsa capital, the city of Cali in Colombia].

Of course, this type of music is still being produced today in New York, Puerto Rico and Colombia, Venezuela, etc., but the production is still very small in comparison to the MacSalsa.

The unauthentic or watered down salsa is a reference to the Salsa Romantica where pretty boy singers with questionable talents were marketed by the record companies to the teenage and female market in general. This parallels similar marketing approaches in the US and other countries.

These were songs with romantic mushy lyrics and BLAND musical arrangements. Many real salsa musicians stayed away from this kind of music. Others, because of financial necessities succumbed to the economic pressure.

Of course, authentic salsa has always been produced throughout these years, but has been almost invisible for most part because of the popularity of McSalsa. I say, most part, because in recent years there has been a relatively small jump in demand for the better quality music. This is due to the immense popularity of salsa dancing throughout the world and the fact that authentic salsa is more danceable than its romantic and musically challenged cousin.

Other salsa that can usually be considered watered down, include songs in English, fusions with Reggae, fusions with other pop genres. There are exceptions to what I just said but the trend is for the bad rather than good.



There is no one salsa. And there never was. The salsa that was officially backed was often backed to support ideas about the cosmic race, but excluded forms of the dance for political reasons more than dance reasons.
As far as salsa dancing is concerned, there are many types of dancing, but the essence has to be the same. When you see people (some of whom are referred to as professors or even champions) spin aimlessly on the dance floor while following a choreography that has nothing to do with the music that they are supposed to be dancing to then you see just a shell of what salsa is supposed to be all about. You can see such dancers and their clueless followers in most dance clubs in the West.

In this respect, the parallels with TMAs are amazing. You have teachers who are clueless who teach students who in turn become their clueless followers. Some of these student become champions because the judges who judge them are clueless too. The latter is not always true but it is common. You also have some who have a slightly better knowledge and understanding than the rest thinking that they are the real deal but of course they are products of slightly better Mac Salsa schools. LOL

So, once someone who really knows about salsa gives them some constructive criticism regarding their dancing ( and their choice of music) he is given a blank look or these "champions" go into denial tantrums rather like many of the Glorified Kickboxers here when they are shown to be clueless regarding deeper TCMA understanding.

Like I said, the parallels are just amazing.LOL

To conclude, there are credible parallels between the imported MacSalsa phenomenom and the imported MacTMA phenomenom.


It is entirely appropriate that Sanjuro Ronin's thread be about salsa.
More than you think.;) :)

HW108:)

[Yum Cha]

It is entirely appropriate that Sanjuro Ronin's thread be about salsa.


Yea, Hey Sanjuro! How's your Cha-cha-cha? :D

[Hardwork108]

Yea, Hey Sanjuro! How's your Cha-cha-cha? :D
It is probably better than his TCMA but not as good as Bruce Lee's cha cha skills. :D

[Scott R. Brown]

It sounds to me that there is as much controversy, confusion, and argument about salsa as there is about kung-fu!

[Hardwork108]

It sounds to me that there is as much controversy, confusion, and argument about salsa as there is about kung-fu!

These two areas would seem to be unlikely parallels yet they are, for the mere fact that they are imported activities that provide money making activities for clueless and shrewd opportunists.

Of course, the TCMAs are infinitely more profound than "salsa", eventhough the latter contains two aspects, the authenticity and quality of music used to teach dancing and/or played at clubs, and the ESSENCE of the dance teachers/dancers, interpreting that music.

As sad as both scenes are, I must confess that the salsa scene in the West provides just about as many laughs as the Mac "kung fu" scene. LoL!

HW108

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi Ronin, thanks for putting that out there as a great example of how a life in martial arts can progress over the years.

And also, thanks for confirming my suspicions that you're really a TCMA kinda guy who simply took advantage of the practical opportunities provided to develop your art.

I would have to say, my experiences have likewise been determined by geography as well. I had done the rounds with a bunch of stuff until my late 20's when I got into this stuff. I understand totally what you mean about the 'extra' in SPM and Pak Mei, and I'd have to guess, a few other arts unknown to me.

That was exactly what seduced me as well... and thanks for your obvious note of respect for Pak Mei Pai.

That curiosity thing never really got to me while studying PM, I always felt I had this and that covered, until I got a taste of BJJ.

What I think is really cool is that you can go at 98% all the time and its just friendly practice. The technicality, the practicality, the challenge and the fun. Not so sure I like having a 300lb guy sit on my head and make me tap, but hey, swings and roundabouts.

Unfortunately, the mind is willing, but the body is weak, my joints just don't work like they used to under torque...

You know that movie scene where the U-boat dives to escape the destroyers dropping depth charges. As it dives, the dial goes into the red and all the sudden the hull creaks and pops, steam pipes blow, eventually rivets start flying around - that's me trying to crank on a cradle... Takes a couple of days in dry dock to repair...

So, you wrangled a Pak Mei guy or two while bouncing? There's some in NY, and some in Toronto, Michigan somewhere, Calgary, and Vancouver. Not surprised.

Since they were defeated, they've probably been executed anyhow. Natural selection.

I had the opportunity to wet my teeth in Pak Mai bit never go into it, I started in the army soon after and when I left the army, well, other things were on my mind.
But the short hand thing stayed with me...
When I bounced at Venus2 night club in T.O. we had a lot of asian content so one got the opportunity to "see" many varities of "gong sau" ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Two things that often put 'practical' martial artists off about traditional arts are the talk about chi, and the secrets, rituals, etc. That seems to be my experience.

There is also a level of competition and speed of learning, but that's more a quantity than quality issue to my mind.

The thing I find about all that 'chi' stuff, is not to listen to the tounge fu, just train, and if you feel something, work it. It is so much simpler than all the BS people lay on it. Its breathing not magic. Its one of those things that the harder you try to understand, the harder it is to figure out. Is it psychological - who cares.

As for the secrets, and rituals, well, aside from the obvious motivational aspect, they are simply things you can't know until you know something else. Its secret not because you can't be told, but because you can't understand. People rabbit on about Pak Mei Ton To, Chum Fa, rise fall swallow spit, like experts, yet they don't really understand until they have the core skills to execute it, which is as obvious to the trained PM eye as pink knickers. Roughly speaking you can see it in a quarter of the PM videos on YouTube, maybe a touch more. Yet, every PM novice these days recites the script. Secrets are secrets because nobody CAN tell you, you have to find your own answer.

Unless of course, you are training with a bunch of commercial wankers, in which case, may God have mercy on your soul...

I was exposed to many "inner" stuff, some that worked and some that didn't.
By work I mean worked against me or didn't, that was measuring stick, if you could take me, you had something to show me, and I would do my bets to learn it.
All of the old "fighters" respected that, those that didn't typically had something to "hide" or "lose".
But that was "ages" ago.
I can say this, very few great teachers have great students.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yea, Hey Sanjuro! How's your Cha-cha-cha? :D

I am and always have been a Tango and passo doble, kind of guy, enough said eh bro?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is probably better than his TCMA but not as good as Bruce Lee's cha cha skills. :D

Between coming on to me and now, asking me to dance, I think you are taking this whole "spartan lifestyle" a bit too seriously.
I repeat, I am flattered and all, but I don't really swing that way.
Sorry, I know your are disilusioned but I am sure you can find some other real TMA to help you with your ****erotic fantasies.
Be well.

[Hardwork108]

Between coming on to me and now, asking me to dance, I think you are taking this whole "spartan lifestyle" a bit too seriously.
I repeat, I am flattered and all, but I don't really swing that way.
Sorry, I know your are disilusioned but I am sure you can find some other real TMA to help you with your ****erotic fantasies.
Be well.

You really have a one track mind or is it some fantasy left over from your ground grappling days, LOL!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You really have a one track mind or is it some fantasy left over from your ground grappling days, LOL!

Flirt !
:D