Bung Bu Comparisons (Seven Star, CCK TJPM, TJPM)

[mooyingmantis]

About seven years ago I began researching a few of the differences between the many versions of Bung Bu that I have seen.
Here is a small comparison on one small section of Bung Bu. Please feel free to add your comments! :)

WHF Seven Star Praying Mantis

Ascend Mountain, Left Thrust Palm
Ascend Mountain, Right Insert Strike
Vertical Leap, Seal Gathering Strike
Enter Ring, Right Fold Elbow
Enter Ring, Right Crushing Strike
At Back Kick, Double Turn Palms
Horse Stance, Double Seal Hands

CCK Tai Chi Praying Mantis

Ascend Mountain, Left Thrust Palm
Ascend Mountain, Right Insert Strike
Left Lift Knee, Right High Grab/Left Palm Strike
Right Lift Knee, Right Fold Elbow
Right Jade Ring, Right Crushing Strike
Twist Stance, Hang & Spear Hand
Horse Stance, Double Seal Hand

Tai Chi Praying Mantis

Seven Star, Right Nation Palm
Jade Ring, Right Carry Hand into a Punch
Right Twist Stance, Double Hook Grabs
Right Lift Knee, Right Coiling Elbow
Right Jade Ring, Right Crushing Strike
Twist Stance, Left Colliding Claw/Right Palm
Reverse Bow Stance, Double Seal Hands (Smoothly Drag Sheep)

Note that I used the Seven Star terminology through most of the comparisons unless I was aware of terminology used with the style that I described.

[gunglihchuan]

A very interesting thread. I study CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis kung fu. A Sifu in my system, Sifu Tse has written a book on this form Taichi Mantis Peng Pu Boxing. He lists 56 moves.

The following is a video of my performance of CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis Bung Bu Chuan.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=40627603

[mooyingmantis]

Gunglihchuan,
Nice execution of the form in your video! Thanks for participating in this discussion!
I have translated part of the book mentioned (the English translation in the book didn't always accurately reflect the Chinese text) and have seen several videos of the form on YouTube. My favorite video of the CCK TJPM version on YouTube was Alexander Tse demonstrating the form slowly for reference purposes. It was very helpful for my research.
If others are willing to join in the discussion, I will post more comparative sections of the the form.
Richard

[gunglihchuan]

Thank you for your kind words Richard.

I know only about 30 Chinese characters but I think that translation inaccuracies will always be a problem with English and Asian languages. They are very different but it does give you an interesting insight into their culture.

I also agree that Sifu Tse has a great many excellent clips of CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis Bung Bu and the CCK Tai Chi Praying Mantis system in general.

I think it is very interesting to look at the similarities and differences concerning the original northern praying mantis form. This thread would be great material for a series of articles in any martial arts magazine.


Regards,

Steve

[seung ga faat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RiEnhwmXJg
Here is another Bung Bo Form.
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[mooyingmantis]

Othal,
I like the way you "flow" through that form. Very nice!
I only see one difference in the way I learned the form from my instructor, Mike Biggie, and that is in the way you do and apply 登 山 左 插 掌, deng shan zuo cha zhang/ascend mountain, left thrust palm. Is the 左 衝 爪 zuo chong zhao/left colliding claw before the 插 掌 cha zhang/thrust palm how you were taught the form, or is a personal innovation?
Either way I think it is very interesting! It was nice to see that application.
Thank you for sharing!
Richard

[gunglihchuan]

I agree with Richard, Sifu Thomas.

A very fluid and skillful version of Bung Bu. It is always nice to see the applications as well.

[seung ga faat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvGARZDXMpY
Here are some applications for the transition.
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[mooyingmantis]

Othal,
Interesting explanation of the "suspend" and "crashing" keyword theories. :)
How long have you practiced chut sing tang lang? You apparently have many years experience.

All,
I think one of the most interesting differences in the three styles that I compared is the TJPM "smoothly lead the sheep" (WHF 7* calls this double seal hands).
In the 7* PM and CCK TJPM the action ends in a Horse or Riding Tiger Stance, while in TJPM the practitoner faces the opposite direction in an Ascend Mountain stance. The final position looks almost like the practitioner is performing a right gwa and a left uppercut strike, yet it is actually akin to the double seal hands.
Any thoughts on this?

[Luk Hop]

Over the years I have had the opportunity to have studied multiple versions of Bung Bu within some of the various 7* and Northern lines.

For me, when I watch someone playing Bung Bu (7* or Northern), I pay considerable attention to the body and how its transitions from the intro through the tiger stances and on to the first mantis catches the cicada.

I find almost all of the following variations of the form irrelevant. If one is only concerned with the individual postures, and if there is depth in the curriculum that is being studied, one usually will encounter some, if not most, or even all of the different variations in later or advanced sets even though different lineages may be involved. Yes there may be exceptions, but then one would need to have an idea of what is implied by "depth in the curriculum".

However, Mooyingmantis, I do applaud your research and I know from experience that it can be an interesting yet dubious task of tracing some of the changes. Who, what, how, why, when and where can become intriguing and sometimes entertaining.

Best wishes in your studies.

[seung ga faat]

Hello,
In our 7 Star the movements are called:
- bow posture, pierce palm
- bow posture assisted fist strike
- advance step, golden **** poses on one leg, wild goose claw-fist strike
- enter circle step, overlapping elbow
- enter circle step, sitting fist strike
- rear treasure kick,white goose takes flight
- frog posture, evil king invites guest

I have been studying not long enough......
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[mooyingmantis]

For me, when I watch someone playing Bung Bu (7* or Northern), I pay considerable attention to the body and how its transitions from the intro through the tiger stances and on to the first mantis catches the cicada.

I find almost all of the following variations of the form irrelevant. If one is only concerned with the individual postures, and if there is depth in the curriculum that is being studied, one usually will encounter some, if not most, or even all of the different variations in later or advanced sets even though different lineages may be involved. Yes there may be exceptions, but then one would need to have an idea of what is implied by "depth in the curriculum".

Lol, I learned three different transitions from the same teacher. :)

I agree as to the redundancy in 7* PM. As the old spaghetti sause commercial said, "It's in there!" Over and over the same ideas are in one form after another. From Beng Bu Quan to Yin Yi Lu Bai Yuan Kui Yan the principles repeat and build.

Thanks for joining the discussion Luk Hop!

[mooyingmantis]

Hello,
In our 7 Star the movements are called:
- bow posture, pierce palm
- bow posture assisted fist strike
- advance step, golden **** poses on one leg, wild goose claw-fist strike
- enter circle step, overlapping elbow
- enter circle step, sitting fist strike
- rear treasure kick,white goose takes flight
- frog posture, evil king invites guest

I have been studying not long enough......

I am assuming the alternate name for rooster was ****. :)

Thanks for sharing the names you use for your techniques!

[Davemantis]

I am curious out of the different variations of Bung bu what is your favourite?
I have only ever trained the 7* and CCK Tai Chi mantis Bung bu under sifu Tse and I do tend to favour the CCK Tai Chi version

[mooyingmantis]

I am curious out of the different variations of Bung bu what is your favourite?
I have only ever trained the 7* and CCK Tai Chi mantis Bung bu under sifu Tse and I do tend to favour the CCK Tai Chi version

I like the 7* version for its straight forward, no nonsense linear approach. I like the CCK TJPM version for its aesthetic beauty. I believe both are devastatingly effective and teach important principles. So I don't really prefer one or the other. I respect both equally for what they offer.

Thanks for joining the discussion Davemantis!

[Davemantis]

Mooyingmantis
I understand what you are saying about you teach what works for you.
I think the reason I like the CCK TC Bung bu is because it helps me understand more the movement, energy and so on. I suppose the CCK TC Bung Bu is making my 7* Bung Bu a little softer and allowing it to flow better. I also suppose its inevitable that if you have 2 or more variations of the same form that they will cross over and blend a little even if its not physically visible to everyone.

Dave
www.stmkfa.co.uk

[KwaiChangCaine]

I'm under the impression that seven star mantis has power generation as a core attribute and that it shows in how forms are played. Not sure this is soimething that should change. What do you think?

[TaichiMantis]

These were written by Professor Randy Choy of Honolulu. He studied under Sifu David Cheng who was one of Chiu Chuk Kai's disciples in Vietnam. Here are the links and some excerpts:

http://i-chuan.net/pages/Choy6.html

Training in "Thrusting Foot Boxing" One of the most awesome hand forms of the Taiji praying Mantis Boxing system is the "Thrusting Foot Boxing" (Beng Bo), which consists of fifty-six postures. My students always want to know the secret of learning this very old boxing form. My answer is: you have to understand the twelve kinds of praying mantis fighting techniques which led to the creation of the form some 300 years ago from Mr. Wang Lang of the Northern Sung Dynasty.

So let's go through "Thrusting Foot Boxing" and I will give you examples of where these twelve fighting techniques are.

http://i-chuan.net/pages/Choy7.html

In my martial arts classes, I instruct a number of qualified martial arts instructors. Their responses are beyond that of the average martial arts practitioner. It is because of their desire to learn more about Northern Praying Mantis boxing that I decided to share my knowledge to all of you in what to look for in analyzing a boxing form. Of course, you must show some caution: a little knowledge can be dangerous. So proceed slowly and remember, I'm not trying to sell you a martial arts form, but rather, I'm trying to direct you to the method and the way that I analyze a boxing form.

If you are a practitioner of Northern Praying Mantis Boxing, then this article might be of some particular interest to you. The first step I would go through is to review my last article, analyzing your boxing form's horse stances and basic footwork. See if Mr. Wang Lang's twelve fighting techniques of "Thrusting Foot Boxing" (Beng Bo) does apply in some way to your boxing form. So let's go through a few "Rules of Chuan." This is what I do when I learn a boxing form. After learning all of the movements in this form, I would create a mental image of what I'm practicing. Based on the "Rules of Chuan," there must be an entire list of fist, palm, and claw strikes. If your instructor did not supply you with a list, then you've got to list it down yourself.

[gunglihchuan]

"However, I don't teach either form. I teach a blended form that demonstrates the high points of the 7*, CCK TJMH and TJMH versions, with a TJMH PM energy.
Yeah, I know traditionalists (whatever they are) will roll their eyes and snicker, but I teach what works for me."


It would be very interesting to see the combined version of Bung Bu that you teach. If you have some time I would really like to see a video demonstration.

Regards,

Steve

[mooyingmantis]

Dave,
I agree that crossover would be a common result of form variation cross-training.

Kwaichangcaine,
Yeah, I would agree. Though I think this could be said for any Chinese martial art.

Taichimantis,
Excellent links! He sounds like a very knowledgeable instructor. Thanks for sharing those with us. :)

[mooyingmantis]

Here is a comparison of another short part of the form to chew on and discuss:

WHF Northern Praying Mantis

Horse Stance, Right Split Punch
Twist Stance, Left Sticky Elbow
Ascend Mountain, Left Turn Elbow

CCK TJPM

Horse Stance, Right Split Palm
Left Ride Tiger Stance, Right Hook/Left Facing Sky Elbow
Right Riding Tiger Stance, Left Head Elbow

TJPM

Ride Tiger Stance, Right Split Palm
Right Jade Ring, Right Hook/Left Facing Sky Elbow
Right Ascend Mountain, Left Stamping Elbow/Right File Punch (this is a trip over the left thigh)

Have at it! :)

[mooyingmantis]

The NPM version, as I was taught, has all three strikes aimed at a single opponent.

The CCK TJPM version seems to deal with two or three opponents and involves hopping.

The TJPM version deals with two separate opponents. A chop to one direction, then an elbow attack followed by a tripping elbow technique to a second direction.

As far as preference goes, I like the WHF version and application.

[gunglihchuan]

Thank you, Richard.

I look forward to your video of Bung Bu.

Regards,

Steve

[mooyingmantis]

gunglikchuan,
I will try to get that done today. Send me a private message with your e-mail address to receive it.

[mooyingmantis]

Though this thread was started three years ago, I thought what I am about to add is most relevant here.

Xiaoyao (Will) has added the quanpu of the Cui Shoushan version (TJTLQ) of Beng Bu here:

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/quan-pu-texts-from-taiji-tang-lang.php

Great information Will!

[alextse4]

Though this thread was started three years ago, I thought what I am about to add is most relevant here.

Xiaoyao (Will) has added the quanpu of the Cui Shoushan version (TJTLQ) of Beng Bu here:

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/quan-pu-texts-from-taiji-tang-lang.php

Great information Will!

Just give you all the original quanpu of the Cui Shoushan version (TJTLQ) of Beng Bu in his manuscript.

[mooyingmantis]

Just give you all the original quanpu of the Cui Shoushan version (TJTLQ) of Beng Bu in his manuscript.

Alex,

Excellent! Thank you for that!

Any thoughts on who you believe created this form?

[xiao yao]

Alex, where did you get this quanpu? The opening movements are different to the way I was taught. After the bi zhou, your quan pu says "zuo you er yin yang" whereas it should be "chan long hu yan"

[mooyingmantis]

Alex, where did you get this quanpu? The opening movements are different to the way I was taught. After the bi zhou, your quan pu says "zuo you er yin yang" whereas it should be "chan long hu yan"

The quanpu that Alex posted is very similar to the one that Xia Shaolong of Qingdao has on his Beng Bu DVD. 左 右 二 阴 阳 replaces 纏 龍 護 眼 打. In the same way that 闪 步 闪 肋 臂 is found at the beginning rather than 左 封 右 臂 肘.

Originally, I thought maybe the differences were due to the fact that Master Xia is from Wang Yushan's lineage rather than Cui Shoushan's lineage. But if I am understanding Alex correctly, what he posted was a hand written copy by Master Cui Shoushan himself.

The plot thickens! :)

[Tainan Mantis]

The opening movements are different to the way I was taught. After the bi zhou, your quan pu says "zuo you er yin yang" whereas it should be "chan long hu yan"

It is the same.
Zuo you er yin yang and chan long hu yan are the same move with a different perspective.

[mooyingmantis]

It is the same.
Zuo you er yin yang and chan long hu yan are the same move with a different perspective.

Agreed, but why the different wording? And which is the original?

[Tainan Mantis]

Prior to Cui Shoushan the move was also called 'Praying Mantis Hands to left and right.' At least that is what Liang Xuexiang writes, but what they write and what they teach don't always match.
When Zhou Zhendong teaches the moves he mentions somethings that are very useful such as, this move can be done this way or that way, it is called this or that.
So, each generation may write something down one way and teach it orally another way.

[mooyingmantis]

Prior to Cui Shoushan the move was also called 'Praying Mantis Hands to left and right.' At least that is what Liang Xuexiang writes, but what they write and what they teach don't always match.
When Zhou Zhendong teaches the moves he mentions somethings that are very useful such as, this move can be done this way or that way, it is called this or that.
So, each generation may write something down one way and teach it orally another way.

Interesting! Thank you for the feedback!

[alextse4]

My shandong series 8 book is CKTaichi mantis bung bo,I have put all the manuscript of bung bo of all the old great grand masters in it.

[alextse4]

Is the book available for purchase? If so, how?

Please write to my e-mail:alexanderx@126.com

[mooyingmantis]

Please write to my e-mail:alexanderx@126.com

Thanks! Just sent you an e-mail.

[alextse4]

Is the book available for purchase? If so, how?

http://youtu.be/Bqt6fOy-8so

[mooyingmantis]

Please write to my e-mail:alexanderx@126.com

I am still awaiting a response to my e-mail. :)

[alextse4]

I am still awaiting a response to my e-mail. :)

Sorry your e-mail not received,please send once again.

[mooyingmantis]

Sorry your e-mail not received,please send once again.

Thank you for letting me know. I just sent another e-mail to the above address.

[mooyingmantis]

Sorry your e-mail not received,please send once again.

Your e-mail as you typed it is not working.

[mooyingmantis]

Here are ten techniques that are all found in the three major versions of Beng Bu:

01. The initial dodging step and strike.
02. The left thrusting palm strike followed by the step and right insert fist strike.
03. The right coiling elbow strike followed by a right crushing strike.
04. The left single or double palm strike to the rear followed by the arm lock.
05. The left thrusting palm strike and right insert fist strike followed by the arm lock.
06. The left sky facing elbow strike.
07. The eye gouge with two fingers.
08. The right hook hand strike or throw.
09. The double rubbing palms.
10. The final right waist chop.

I listed the techniques in their order of appearance in the three variations of the form. Note that all three forms have the techniques in the same order.

[mooyingmantis]

It was about nine years ago that I began studying the various versions of Beng Bu. In time I came to believe that there were three main lines that each of the variations fell within.

Now, after years of study and discussions with praying mantis practitioners around the world, I have come to the following conclusions:

The three versions of Beng Bu practiced today can probably be attributed to Jiang Hualong (as passed down by Cui Shoushan and his many other students), Sun Yuanchang (as passed down by Ren Feng Rui) and Wang Yunsheng (as passed down by Fan Xudong).

Each may have been initially inspired by the teaching of Liang Xuexiang, whose version is the earliest, verifiable, documented version of the form. Masters Jiang and Sun were disciples of Liang Xuexiang, so they would have received the teaching directly from Master Liang. While Wang Yunsheng was a friend of Jiang Hualong and may have adopted the form into his Qixing curriculum from the Meihua line of tanglangquan.

The original foundation of "beng bu" may have existed as a form or simply a group of shou fa/mi shou taught by Liang Xuexiang.
However, masters Jiang, Sun and Wang seem to be responsible for the direction and distinct flavor of each version as they expanded on the core techniques and/or the original structure of the ancient Beng Bu.

[xiao yao]

there is a copy of jiang hua long's quan pu floating around somewhere in yantai, but not sure whos got it or what's contained in it. zhou shifu told me he saw it before and it was very simple.

if we could find that, it would give us a clue as to what changes were made since jiangs time

[mooyingmantis]

there is a copy of jiang hua long's quan pu floating around somewhere in yantai, but not sure whos got it or what's contained in it. zhou shifu told me he saw it before and it was very simple.

if we could find that, it would give us a clue as to what changes were made since jiangs time

Yes, that would be wonderful to see.

Changes are inevitable I think. Even if everyone were using the exact same quanpu there could be many variables.

For example, Cui Shoushan's quanpu gives the first move as 闪 步 闪 肋 臂 - shǎn bù shǎn lèi bì - Dodging Step, Dodge Ribs & Arm. Yet let's look at how three instructors interpret the same verse.

Zhou Zhendong executes double sweeping palm blocks as he steps out with his left foot. He ends in a left Small Hill Climbing stance with his left hand held in front of the right side of his chest and extends his right hook hand forward to strike the opponent in the groin.

Xia Shaolong executes a left hook hand grab to the enemy's wrist as he steps out with his left foot. He ends in a left Small Hill Climbing stance with his left hand held high in a raised hook hand and extends his right hook hand forward to strike the opponent in the groin.

Sun Zhibin executes two sets of double sweeping palm blocks as he steps out with his right foot. He ends in a right Small Hill Climbing stance with his left hand held in front of his right shoulder and extends his right hook hand forward to strike the opponent in the groin. Sun emphasizes that the right foot, left palm, right shoulder and right hook hand strike should all be lined up precisely.

Though each instructor uses the same verse for the movement, the footwork, blocking movement and final left hand positions vary.

While these small differences may seem insignificant, multiply the changes found in one verse by the number of verses in an entire form and the forms can begin to look quite different.

[Tainan Mantis]

The three versions of Beng Bu practiced today can probably be attributed to Jiang Hualong
I may be oversimplifying your thesis, but I disagree with this statement of yours that I have highlighted.

I think Jiang Hualong altered Beng Bu and the majority of Beng Bu forms do not descend from him.
I don't think that HK Taiji tang lang and 7 Star Beng Bu descend from him.
Furthermore, other teachers with connections to Jiang Hualong dont even have beng bu
Li KUnshan
Zhang Dekui
Wei Shaotang -Eight Step Mantis

Ilya Profitilov once presented a more compelling hypothesis based on his research:

Jiang Hualong altered Beng Bu himself and that altered version was passed down the lineage of Cui Shoushan, Wang Yushan, Song Zide.

[mooyingmantis]

I may be oversimplifying your thesis, but I disagree with this statement of yours that I have highlighted.

I think Jiang Hualong altered Beng Bu and the majority of Beng Bu forms do not descend from him.
I don't think that HK Taiji tang lang and 7 Star Beng Bu descend from him.
Furthermore, other teachers with connections to Jiang Hualong dont even have beng bu
Li KUnshan
Zhang Dekui
Wei Shaotang -Eight Step Mantis

Ilya Profitilov once presented a more compelling hypothesis based on his research:

Jiang Hualong altered Beng Bu himself and that altered version was passed down the lineage of Cui Shoushan, Wang Yushan, Song Zide.

You didn't quote my full statement. Here is what I said:


The three versions of Beng Bu practiced today can probably be attributed to Jiang Hualong (as passed down by Cui Shoushan and his many other students), Sun Yuanchang (as passed down by Ren Feng Rui) and Wang Yunsheng (as passed down by Fan Xudong).

I think it is possible that Jiang may have altered Beng Bu, but it cannot be said with certainty until we see a copy of his quanpu or have some other type of documentary evidence. So, my conclusion doesn't disagree with Ilya's in any way. I would just like to see more evidence.

I also doubt the Jiang had anything to do with the Beng Bu that was passed down from Sun Yuanchang. I did not say, nor infer that.

I agree that the idea that Wang Yunsheng may have received Jiang's Beng Bu and altered it is pure conjecture. Though it could be a possibility. And I think the idea should be explored by Qixing lineage practitioners.

The fact that some of Jiang's students do not teach Beng Bu is irrelevant to my conclusions. Though the fact is interesting.

I appreciate your feedback! I always find your research interesting.

I posted my "conclusions" for the express purpose of peer review. So, if someone can present facts that prove my theories wrong, I welcome the discussion. :) I am only looking for THE truth, not MY truth.