wu sau position with ur bong sau

[Steeeve]

Where do you position ur wu sau when u do a hight bong sau?

a lot of yip man lineage keep their wu sau half way distance of the bong
WC like Yuen kay San WC keep their wu sau very near of the bong sau arm like a reinforcing....

whats the pro and cons (good and bad for each position:confused:

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Wu sao is the rear guard. It supports the front lines however it can.

Wu sao can combine with bong sao to defend against a punch - for example, if the bong was not strong enough or not on time, the wu sao can divert the remaining energy left or right from centre.

It can also combine with bong sao to form various kwan saos, or binding hands.

I like to have the Wu sao shape "float" at the level of my other arm's elbow, between the centreline and inside of the other arm. It's pretty versatile.

[couch]

Where do you position ur wu sau when u do a hight bong sau?



I kind of don't believe in a high Bong Sau. I don't think Bong Sau should be for anything above the neck.

With that being said, regardless of where my Bong Sau is, my Wu Sau is roughly where it is in the retracted portion of my Siu Nim Tao - not on MY centreline per se, but pointing at my opponent.

[punchdrunk]

wu sau position should be dictated by necessity, if it has to go forward it should (possibly as a tan sau to form kwan sau) if it goes forwrd without reason it is inefficient and tying up your own hands needlessly. High bong sau is replaced in some schools with bui sau.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't think it is a matter of lineage at all. I think it is more a personal thing.

[Vajramusti]

Where do you position ur wu sau when u do a hight bong sau?

a lot of yip man lineage keep their wu sau half way distance of the bong
WC like Yuen kay San WC keep their wu sau very near of the bong sau arm like a reinforcing....

whats the pro and cons (good and bad for each position:confused:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You first have to have a good well balanced wing chun body structure-without which "techniques'"can break down. The mutually supporting positions of bong and wu would then depend on whether you are facing your own shadow or facing someone else.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

the first actions of the forms are man & vu , wrists xing the line. not hi / lo gaun sao's ;)

the rear vu x's the centerline at the wrist, making the vu sit by the bicep/elbow of the bong sao, whatever the height.

vu-sao is an attacking position, not defensive, bong is a way to recover the bridged arm ...as the bong deflects and the elbow drops to become a strike [as chi-sao] the vu strikes out....

if the bong doesnt work , u lop :D if it is working you dont need to lop from vu, just strike iow attack..dont do 2 defensive actions in sequence....

by xing the line with the wrists we strike along the line intersecting anything on it ...without thinking.

[Steeeve]

By hight bong i mean a bong to the shoulder level or in the middle body...i agrree a biu sau for hight attack is good

What the used of bong sau:confused: ....for me its for jamming the attack thats not a block just a interception a set up ....like the kwun sau .....with the wu sau near of the bong arms u could lop sau or hit more fast
with the wu here we dont talk about the used with the footwork...

[grasshopper 2.0]

I agree. If the attack is high, a bong sao is not the appropriate response to it..according to what i've learned that is.

a high attack doesn't have the right pressure to create the bong sao reaction...when it's high, you just hit.


I kind of don't believe in a high Bong Sau. I don't think Bong Sau should be for anything above the neck.

With that being said, regardless of where my Bong Sau is, my Wu Sau is roughly where it is in the retracted portion of my Siu Nim Tao - not on MY centreline per se, but pointing at my opponent.

[Yoshiyahu]

When we speak of

Wu Sau and Bong Sau...

Aren't we really talking about form of Kau Sau or Kwan Sau?

http://www.wle.com/media/B483.jpg


or


http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/bongsao_s.jpg

Is this what you mean????????

[Steeeve]

Yes Yoshi

for the wu position with the bong the last photos ...and the finger hand of the bong is toward the opponent......kan sau or gwun sau is a derivate of the bong sau and wu sau
position
:)

[k gledhill]

using 2 hands to fight one isolated & flanked arm is NOT a skill ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

No Yoshi, I don't think they are the same. Not used the same anyway. When you bong sao, it is usually when you are not in position to tan or bil sao or whatever. Seldom higher then shoulder and never lower than the belly. At least the way I use it. The wu remains on the center of your incoming opponent. When you bong you do so on your own center line, but to avoid being hit in the face or chest you also shift to your oposite side slightly, but the wu does not follow that shift, but remains exactly where it should be, facing your oponent. I think someone already said that. It should be somewhere around your upper arm between shoulder and elbow. If you use that hand to grab with, it is in proper position, and should you need to block or parry another incoming punch you have your hand in proper position still.

LCP

[Steeeve]

u use it for strike:) ur wusau is there for reinforce ur jamming with the bong and he strike ....bong sau is use for crash in ur opponent for unbalanced him not for block for cover......or for emergency situation for retreat

[Steeeve]

here what i mean about the wu sau position with bong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX9KviQDMGA

[Steeeve]

using 2 hands to fight one isolated & flanked arm is NOT a skill ;)

i used one hands to cover one hand to attack....that skill:D

[TenTigers]

k gledhill-just out of curiosity, why do you substitute v for w? I can understand why some use it to write ving tsun, but why carry it over to other words that require a w?

[chusauli]

Because he's speaking Cherman - LOL!

[k gledhill]

:D Roberts got me there ! hah VU sao ! ;)

steeeve one hand to cover one to attack is fine :D posing with kau sao and VU sao is silly.

[Phil Redmond]

k gledhill-just out of curiosity, why do you substitute v for w? I can understand why some use it to write ving tsun, but why carry it over to other words that require a w?
I learned one version of why Wing Chun was changed to Ving Tsun (though no Cantonese speaker will use the V sound). What have other people learned?
What gets me is why people spell Yip Man, Ip Man? It's clearly pronounced Yip in Cantonese.

[bennyvt]

when wsl was beating everyone the only come back they had was to call it water closet fist, wck, in other words toilet fist. Bong is the only pure block in vt. Charging with the bong is used to divert someones pulling force. Not just to block the punch,The only punches you can do that to are vt punches in chi sao. Try that on a boxers punch the punch will either fly past without time to do that or more likely you get hit. Do the lap sao defence to a person not punching down the middle and you will find the bong doesnt even in near the punch.

[KenWingJitsu]

when wsl was beating everyone the only come back they had was to call it water closet fist, wck, in other words toilet fist. Bong is the only pure block in vt. Charging with the bong is used to divert someones pulling force. Not just to block the punch,The only punches you can do that to are vt punches in chi sao. Try that on a boxers punch the punch will either fly past without time to do that or more likely you get hit. Do the lap sao defence to a person not punching down the middle and you will find the bong doesnt even in near the punch.

Nonsense.

If someone taught you that the bong-sau is a "block"... get a refund.
The bong should be a collapsing punch.
Punch first, yield if his arm meets your punch......

[k gledhill]

bong is used if your strike-line aka centerline 'path' is occupied from above...making the arm unable to deliver a strike itself ...so we displace with a 'ging'/shocking short energy lateral bong , left or right , xing our centerline/strikeline clearing a way for the rear VU sao
aka WU sao :D....this lateral energy of the bong is what allows us to shift energy that touches it past us with just the bong sao alone....iow no lop needed to grab as a set piece.
this further allows the bong to be done in 'blinking' speeds as the rear hand fires in using its 'dual' energy strikes to displace laterally as well, while it strikes forwards...allowing an attacking hand straight away in a 1/2 beat of the bong ....anything else is too slow.
LOP aka grabbing hand , is only used if the bong fails to shift the arm alone....so grab it and turn the guy on his axis line [head/spine] gaining flank and keep attacking....

Many use bong as a hard jam or 'block' due to the loss of the lateral energy and displacing effect it has, similar to the poles ability to 'slap' another pole off its intended path but still hold its contact point... iow opening up a striking path with a sharp slapping, quick stop, deflection....

Bong is developed on the dummy lower arm like this to strike it with fast rotation speeds from short starting points ...but if it misses the intended arm, it wont fly past offering your elbow for trapping....we also do this energy doing low bongs traveling inwards in chum kil...we would use a normal height bong as the others , but the drill allows the sharp inward energy of the bongs to be applied with forward advancing attacking steps....so if your attacking with either lead leg, and the guy gets his arm over yours, you can shift it sideways as he applies force or not and 'turn ' him, using bongs energy alone, so you have the rear vu, free to do what it has to...moving forwards attacking with bong/vwu..

remember we only turn to face our line of attack, relative to the guys moves...NOT to rotate away from them offering turned elbows etc...

the VWU sao is placed in the chambered position of the bicep/raised elbow, so that it will intersect anything in its path as it strikes forwards FIRST...iow you strike first from VWU sao at the head of the guy not chase his arm by memorized response of redundant chi-sao bong lop drills....which would be like training to be slow on purpose, rather than using lop as a last resort...it is in bil gee ...lop sao...

Jut sao is the primary response to an intercepted fist, due to it staying on the strike/centerline even if it misses.....so bong > vu strikes> intercepted ? use jut>and bongs elbow would have dropped as chi-sao teaches to regaing the elbow in position to strike immediately for the intercepted jut....

all in a millisecond :D

I used a lop in a street/bar fight and missed the guys arm in the chaos opening me up and making me turn myself from the miss....I was lucky enough to stay balanced and hit the guy with the same arm as I re-turned to face him and land a turning facing punch to his nose = ko....point being ? lop only if your bong didnt work to displace and open the strike line on its own....


VU sao is a way to keep a perpetual free attacking hand in reserves as the 'front line' advances on the target...no matter what the guy does to your lead hand [man] the rear keeps re-chambering [ tut sao/shaving hand = vu recovery to the rear after striking out]...so you can keep firing at the guy using ATTACKING hands not 2-3 sequential actions..

becasue the bong moves force 'sideways'/ latrerally now you can move forwards attacking without turning to use bong ....iow you can take force and move it past your ears as you strike in advancing forwards and NOT JAM the guy pushing him out of your striking range, or meeting force with a force of bong rigidly trying to block another force...it takes little energy to move a great force sideways :D "the harder they come " as they say holds true for the bong sao....

vu-sao is 'married' to bong for this reason...how to recover a bridged arm without thinking ....bong makes way for the intercepting fist of VT. AKA VWU sao ;):D

some try to avoid the bong xing over the other arm in chi-sao for 'fear' of being trapped in the 'game' of chi-sao...in real fighting we never use the same drilling positions, we use lead[man] rear [vwu] allowing a constant attacking action 'idea' to evolve from the SLT...

in chi-sao the bongs finger tips should be almost touching the partners tshirt sleave aiming at thir bicep with the bongs finger tips, xing the line...if the partner is using fowards wristing force you will automatically see that their energy is attached to your bongs lateral movement and they will aim past your ears....they should be aligning their elbows and wrists at you, NOT trying to place energy on your arms with their wrists...in fighting you will always have a rear hand not a drill position with your arms xing each other as chi-sao...

in fighting we wouldnt approach the guy head on with this position so we are training the bong to deflect anything as we angle in on them.....either side...iow your lead 'intended' strike, if xed over by the other guy, would become bong briefly so you could re-establish a bridge by sinking theirs...how to regain the bridge...you dont need to contact their arms before doing bong either, anything in the way of your striking attack intent ...iow their arm is 6inches above your extended lead arm...you cant hit them with the nearest arm, so you recover the line by lateral displacement ..using sharp slapping action of the bongs raised forearm...and instantly strike in with vu, dropping the bong elbow asap....this is what is trained in chi-sao [should be] .

the system is training each action to deflect the attacked arm away from our strike/centerline....every action keeps the guys arm shut down , trying to keep them from re-facing you...bong moves their energy , turning them as they try to contact you...the following actions 'should' further shut down attempts too, the strikes are trained for the duality of deflection/strike individually for this very reason, so you can strike with 2 'free' hands and not fight one arm with 2 always....

2 free striking hands , angling, attacking constantly.... trying to turn the guy or allow him to move and take what he offers , in terms of over swings etc...

once you see the4 drills as simple tools ,you can see the free mind you have to simply fight someone with intuitive actions, systematically trained stikes for delivering the idea...

[TenTigers]

great post-tons of info right there.
where were you during the argument about bong being a weak technique?:rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

I learned one version of why Wing Chun was changed to Ving Tsun (though no Cantonese speaker will use the V sound). What have other people learned?
What gets me is why people spell Yip Man, Ip Man? It's clearly pronounced Yip in Cantonese.
I had heard the "water closet" story as well.
From the little Cantonese I've learned, in some cases, the "Y" sound is dropped, as in,"Yut,Ee, Sam.." not sure if it applies here, or in which cases.
Cantonese is the fourth hardest language, along with Farsi, Hebrew, and not sure what the other is. (probably that African language with all the clicks and pops..)Extremely hard for a non-native/Chinese speaker.
My Cantonese speaking friends know when to break the rules, which words are used due to their more poetic, or proper sounds. (when to use gerk, when to use tuie, or kuen over choy, etc. "This way sounds right" -which to me is impossible to get...)
Funny thing, the young waiter at the local restaurant knows I am learning, so he pushes me to speak more. When I go out to eat with my Cantonese-speaking friends, he asks me first for the order! I'm going to have to eat there more often.

[CFT]

If you ask a native Cantonese speaker, i.e. one from HK or Guangdong, to pronounce the letter "V" they will in all likelihood say "Wee". I think that is why the alternative spelling of "Wing" can be "Ving".

[KenWingJitsu]

Many use bong as a hard jam or 'block' due to the loss of the lateral energy and displacing effect it hasYeah.. um anyone who uses a bong as a block or a jam... doesn't know how to use Wing Chun and has never tried that nonsense in a real fight or in real sparring.

Try "bonging" (lol) a hook... or a round kick and tell me how your delt feels. :D

[Steeeve]

k gledhill

U Rock .....good post....:) thank;)

[Steeeve]

whats about this short lateral gin:Denergy when we perform chi sao.....
.... Does we could say bong sao have a kind of spiral energy forward and lateral depending on the application could be used like a jam ,a deflection or a block (emergency situation)

[Vajramusti]

What gets me is why people spell Yip Man, Ip Man? It's clearly pronounced Yip in Cantonese.[/QUOTE]Phil R
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ip Man's passport showed Ip as the spelling. Ip Chun and Ip Ching both use Ip not Yip.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

whats about this short lateral gin:Denergy when we perform chi sao.....
.... Does we could say bong sao have a kind of spiral energy forward and lateral depending on the application could be used like a jam ,a deflection or a block (emergency situation)


bong elbow goes up, wrist crosses the strike/centerline, fingers point to bicep's....sharp action, then bring elbow back to inwards angle to strike...., repeat 1000's of times and it becomes a simple action .
NO forward spiral energy....remember your attacking forwards, any energy you direct forwards is meeting force...

think of the bong saos energy as a conveyor belt traveling left to right and vice versa....in front of you, any wrist energy that touches it goes laterally to open a strike line up
....if you try to put energy on the conveyor belt it takes the energy sideways, no matter how strong ....

guys who use incorrect wristing forwards energy will easily be opened up...

if you apply the same energy while sparring using the bong sao, it will 'slap' strikes sideways for you all on its own ...allowing you to strike quickly while facing the guy, not turning away to do bong then back again...too slow.

[bennyvt]

whether you do it because you are collapsing or any other of the hundreds you could end up in a bong sao, the bong sao has to block while doing anything with the other hand. All other moves can be turned into an attack while still moving forward. The bong blocks the strike so you can hit with the other hand or complety change direction and start a new attack with the bong sao arm. Normally bringing the elbow into punch. This seems to come down to the whole idea of no blocks in vt. Well the punch blocks. A fuk sao blocks but also should attack. I tend to class something that can only block stuff as a pure block. You still attack while blocking but anytime you stop the attack with your arms or legs whether you attack as well you are still blocking.

[k gledhill]

I like to think of bong 'energy' as a parry, like pak etc....only you dont have the time or position to use the arm in any other way than bong sao....
the lateral 'slapping' force can spin guys off their line of attack easily when they dont expect it and are giving an uncontrolled line of force towards you...just like a pak energy...

Jum strikes have the same lateral energy as pak sao, only the jum strike simultaneously incorporates the 'pak' lateral energy in its forearm, as the strike goes forwards...in one smooth striking action....developed in 2 stages doing dan chi sao drills ...elbow in , then strike..becoming one strike later...the drill then becoming redundant iow you dont fight in the same 1-2 manner

Tans energy is from the elbow 'leaving' the line in a similar 'slapping' force , as the strike goes forwards....tan is developed using your partners jum energy to try and displace his attempts to displace you...energy v energy of elbows and strike alignment in a drill....

combine the inwards energy of jum striking and deflecting with the cycling opposite strike as you attack , tan and the 2 strikes generate force in one flanking direction as each strikes forwards....only because you have the dual force in each striking arm alone..
you dont need 2 hands to fight across one ....iow you dont have to over trap becasue the lead strike cant do 2 jobs at once at a basic level...


left jum strike energy , right tan strike energy -> -> <- <- L tan " " + R jum " "
left bong energy > < right bong energy
left pak > < right pak


so if your on one side or the other you dont leave the centerline as you strike, you simply change the energy of the forearms etc...and move your centerline to get an angle , tactically on the guy...you spent hours developing the natural energy of your strikes to close the guy down from either side, seamlessly with little thought but to hit him as many times as it takes...no moves :D

try getting a partner to put an arm out 1/2 to 2/3rds extended at you...get an angle on them to strike them, you should be close enough to make contact on their right or left pec as the target to hit without injuring them in the ensuing trial and error ....try to use the tans elbow to displce the guys arm as you contact his pec with a fist...2 actions...displace his arm sideways with a short sharp punching action AND slap his arm away with the tans natural elbow leaving the line ...

then repeat using the jum strike...you will have to move an inch or two to use either strike , here you see the reason for the dummy having both tan & jum [sidepalm] becasue you dont know which will be the right one, so we do both...

I digress.... use the inwards energy of the jums forearms while keeping the elbow inwards to displace the partners arm as the tan strike just did...

each strike will take the place of the others energy iow you will keep the guys arm trapped using either strike as you attack and rechamber the rear hand to fire again..

you dont have to worry about looking for the guys arm to function either , just hit with low elbows and shift angle etc... if they make contact THEN you deal with it from chi-sao etc...

the partner can use sudden removal of their arm to see if your chasing it to deflect with little impact force....later counter striking your strike to see if your mind focus shifted to hitting and not dual force...iow he will easily move your elbow out and hit your chest swapping hits....

etc....welcome to the world of WSL

tan/jum sao dont leave the strike/centerline ...

" let the guy move and he will show you what to do....YIP MAN"

[wtxs]

Pronounciation of "Yip" in Cantonese is correct, since Chinese has no alphabets, an equivalent sounding structure is represented. The so call "word" translation to English are done by using the Mandarin dialect, phonetically that where the "I" sound comes to be. My last name can be pronounced as Lau, Lew, Lao, Lai... :eek:

[Steeeve]

Well

I like WSL method.....

Does we could say than the Chum Kiu is a bong sao form:) the three sextion of this form used the bong like the main techniques....3 different ways....bong sao with turning ...bong sao with advanced step....and low bong....

does the bong is the bridge :)

[k gledhill]

there is only 'bong'...no high, low, middle, half high, 3/4 low etc.....only matters where your arm is to theirs when you wan to hit them :D

the stances in ck are to allow parrallel attacking shadow attack....turning is only to face them at angles...movement combined with that in mind...not to turn energy using bong etc...common misunderstanding from wrong bong use...staright forwards attacking is done from flank/sides, as dummy etc....once you turn them or they turn themselves enter lesad leg either one....not in front of them like u see on you tube :D then your just asking to be ko'ed

[bennyvt]

parry is another name for block isn't it. I call bong the jesus block as when suprised you go 'jesus' and throw a bong. It should never be planned. Either you so slow that bjj the other notes are to slow or when throwing an attack and it is pushed so far you can't redirect it. The whole idea me using it as a straight block when a punch is thrown is when the attack is so close that the elbow is the nearest joint as bringing the hand up is too slow. But yeh only one bong done at the level you need it. But he it gets too high you need to be close or a different move should have been used.

[k gledhill]

the key word is deflection....like two cars that sideswipe each other , glancing off from the sides of the cars hitting each other as they come head on...not force suddenly stops force dead in its tracks...that is for the fists :D the fists are the head on force, the forearms the glancing displacement....
By developing short levers ..tan..jum...jut...bong...etc.. we get low elbows angled and controlled to have this natural action...the system re-enforces it throughout ...elbows , elbows and wrist alignment , dummy arm cycling....

deflecting angles of forearms and fists , using the movement of the opponent and your ck angling to achieve tactical angles and constant attacking ....

the basic strikes in a lot of guys is lacking the duality of strike/deflect in one beat becasue many are taught to use 2 hands for everything or worse , wristing actions , making one beat dual action strikes impossible...
So rather than 2 striking arms in rotation EACH trained to have the ability to act as 2 hands ...alone in fast rotation attacking ...
instead they use a pak and da, a tan and a da, a lop and a ...da no da da :D and if they do da.... it is a silly chain punch with no elbow idea/deflection involved, rather they do fast hands and straight line attacks that can easily be thwarted...good word thwarted ; )

[Steeeve]

if i understood your for the deflection and strike with the same arm.....using the footwork
does the chum kiu bridging inthe yipmanstyle is the bong sao....a lot of bong sao in this form :)

[k gledhill]

ck shows how to recover the bridge....aka how to end the fight asap...

the deflection energy of the bong is done as you face , not as you turn...you only turn to face the strike angles...attack along them using the combination of ck ..

because the opponent/s can move randomly , we have to be able to face their movement while still striking them, without taking our strikes offline ...why we do symmetrical arm actions along the centerline/striking line.

each arm is trained to strike with the inside and outside of the forearms using the elbow angles...in SLT....make a strike line the wrists intersect, making the centerline impenetrable at angles to it...if you use two extended hands along the c line, it allows possible traps and stopping your attacks...

by developing individual striking arms that can become either jum or tan by simply facing different angles you see the idea....the strikes dont need to leave the line to chase , just aim and fire using the inbuilt deflections ....

dan chi starts the rpocess, but becomes redundant ...no longer using 2 beat strikes of elbow in then hit [jum] elbow in then spreads out as it hits [ tan ] ....we only face squarely in basic stances to train each other...using opposite arm energy to develop the other er...arm !

chi-sao develops striking distances using the now 1 beat striking...adding angling counters and attacking angles iow motion and attack angles....many dont do this level and stay facin g in a basic stance doing rolling wrists chasing games...ego tag.


in the ck the wu sao iz by zee bicep because after the bong has done its thing and the elbow starts to drop, the vu can fire out as a tan energy/elbow spreading strike, matching the previous lateral direction energy of the bong ...by the strike already xing the centerline at the wrists [why u do it so much in ck] ....anything in the path of the centerline will be intersected by your striking arm....if the wu is on the center its possible that you can miss along the line....this line intersection is the basis of the 'non thinking' attack ability....

you simply fire along the line..nothing there, you hit..."when the hand is free....strike out"

[bennyvt]

i totally agree. Great post and explanation. :D.

[Steeeve]

Thank you Mr k gledhill

U rock:)

[k gledhill]

u r velcome ;)