Tai Zu Chang Quan - info?

[Sal Canzonieri]

well, we compared and contrasted a lot of Shaolin sets so far and solved some mysteries and found some new ones that need solving, so here's another one:

Tai Zu Chang Quan sets are a great mystery to just about every Chinese Martial Arts researcher, etc.

Starting with videos, there's all these styles and not much known how they are inter-related:

Shaolin Tai-Zu Chang Quan (the most famous set, NONE of these are the real internal way to do this set):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg0AHeYAfWM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Xr5gFC7Iw (famed Liang Yiquan shown)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFJQqdeLVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slkayimZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XnpXLJS50g (where is complete clip of this?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1lebnmM1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZkQ5qp5nHw (crap modern way)

The Taiwan version of Taizu Chang Quan (which comes from Shandong province originally):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4 (Li Mao Ching shown doing the Yi Lu set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS2TEe (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkSRNTuIslo (Yi Lu)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IKX9Jk2F8 (Er Lu - best I've seen)
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjc0MzMwMDg=.html (non Youtube version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrxfq6inTTY (Er Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb1znn33EJM (Er Lu, but changed much)

Gao Dao Sheng Long Fist Mantis Taizu Chang Quan Er Lu (also originally from Shandong):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8JJ76Fjl70 (Er Lu TZ Chang Quan)

The Harbin (Manchuria) Taizu Chang Quan (which came from Shandong originally as well):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkoWAo3yWeo (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJ7d3pI9-g (Er Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zO (both Yi Lu & Er Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cWZHi6mJNI (Yi Lu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfNg6K26Br0 (Er Lu)

The Taizu Men style (also Shandong):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2ZoGTBjJJE (6 Sections Fist)

The Lin Xian Rui 林宪瑞 Taizu Chang Quan lineage (anyone with some info?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B8Ed1-xIUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUt9rt32hk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4zI7DNKsoU (a TZ Rou Quan set)


Odd Taizu Quan sets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z6lbcuv9kA (Small Frame TZ Chang Quan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omma4O17peI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AlB-MFWhJQ

[Royal Dragon]

Sal, would you be able to name all the sets that are specifically known to have come directly from Zhao Kuang Yin?

So far I know of

1.The 36 posture set from Shanxii
2.Lao Hong Quan from Shaolin
3.Guandong's form found at Shaolin and Wudang
4.Guanxi form?
5. 13 famous spear

Everything else, he was either known to have practiced, but were not actualy taught by him like his Monkey set that Shaolin got from another source, or the Six Stance Fist, or the sets were actually created by someone else, like the Da Hong Quan being from his notes, and the original Shaolin 32 being from the monks based on the Generals he sent there to teach.

Do you know of any more sets that Zhao personally taught besids the ones above?

[Royal Dragon]

I know that this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8JJ76Fjl70

is the Er Lu to this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Some lines only have the Yilu though. Some I have spoken to are not aware that there even is an Erlu to it.

[LFJ]

5. Shaolin 13 spear


the spear set from zhao kuangyin is called "13 famous spear" (shísān míngqiāng, 十三名枪), which is different than the shaolin "13 spear" (shísānqiāng, 十三枪) set.

[Royal Dragon]

Ahh, ok then, I thought they were the same set. I will edit my post, thanks!!

[Royal Dragon]

This is the Shaolin 13 spear, not the 13 famous Spear of Zhao Kuang Yin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SELZ13V9bT8

[LFJ]

This is the Shaolin 13 spear, not the 13 famous Spear of Zhao Kuang Yin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SELZ13V9bT8

yes, thats the common shaolin 13 spear.

the 13 famous spear set attributed to zhao is shown in the shaolin encyclopedia. its quite a bit different.

[Royal Dragon]

The Shaolin Encyclopedia is only in Chinese right?

[LFJ]

yup. all it says is the 13 famous spear set was given to the monks by zhao kuangyin during his time visiting famous masters there. then it shows the set, which is very different from the 13 spear set.

[Royal Dragon]

Does it say when he was there visiting the famous masters? Was this before, or after he acsended the throne?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I know that this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8JJ76Fjl70

is the Er Lu to this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Some lines only have the Yilu though. Some I have spoken to are not aware that there even is an Erlu to it.

No, not at all, this is the Er Lu to that Yi Lu (they are from the same schools):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IKX9Jk2F8

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does it say when he was there visiting the famous masters? Was this before, or after he acsended the throne?

In the history section of these volumes, it says he was there before he was emperor, when he was on his way north.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, would you be able to name all the sets that are specifically known to have come directly from Zhao Kuang Yin? Do you know of any more sets that Zhao personally taught besides the ones above?

Well, this is a complicated question, as people aren't sure which sets were from him directly or not. So, I will address all of the TaiZu Quan sets that I have any information on. Plus, it is the Hong Quan styles are very much inter-related to the Taizu Chang Quan styles, especially since the Zhao family was said to practice Hong Quan being from the Luoyang / Kaifeng area.

1 - Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan - Contrary to popular belief, the famous Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan was not exactly created by him, they only took one of his techniques (1 of 18 different masters), which was Lifting Hands. Fu Ju was commissioned in 961 by Emperor Zhao Kuangyin to create a standardized set of material to prove that a person had been trained at Shaolin. (Note: Song era Fu-Ju was not of the Shaolin Chan religious order that is now traced down from Yuan Dynasty Abbott Fu Yu. “Not all the monks that resided at Shaolin during imperial times were of the same dharma lineage.” (from the book, The Dragons of Shanghai). Fu-Ju was a military monk trainer.) Zhao appointed General Gao Huailiang to reside in the temple to teach and learn. Gao oversaw head martial monk Fu Ju's work in developing Shaolin sets from interacting with these 18 masters.
The first set they developed was the Taizu Chang Quan, which has 32 Postures and 108 Techniques (as does Tongbei Quan). It is also described as Coiling Boxing – Pan Quan. This set was also called ‘32 Shou Duanda’ – 32 Hands Close Strikes, as recorded by Liang Yiquan in his Daoguang era (between 1782 and 1850) Qing Dynasty book, Song Shaolin Chang Quan, which he learnt from his teacher Monk Zhang De.

2. Da Hong Quan started in north Henan; by the middle of the Ming dynasty (1400s-1500s) it spread northwest to Shanxi and Shaanxi provinces, east to Shandong (taught there by three masters from Qingfeng county, north Henan), and north to Hebei. In all these areas, Da Hong quan was composed of 10 different sets, which included a ‘Taizu Chang Quan’ set, a ‘Tai Zu Xia Nan Tang’ (‘Grand Ancestor Goes to Southern Tang’, which Zhao Kuangyin did do when he conquered the Southern Tang kingdom) set, and sets of ‘Pao Quan’.

3. Shaolin Lao Hong Quan (Old Flood Boxing) – This very rare style found in Dengfeng village in Henan, right near Shaolin, is a set of four routines that were said to be handed down to Shaolin directly from Song Emperor Zhao Kuangyin. Zhao at one time gave Shaolin his books and notes on martial arts to keep in their library (most of the library was burned in a fire in 1928, but a number of books were saved by the monks, others had been previously hand copies by various people).

The story is that before Zhao became Song emperor, in his youth he traveled around the neighboring provinces learning martial arts. In Shanxi, he had seen a demonstration by a Shaolin monk that practiced a Rou Quan “Soft Boxing” method that greatly intrigued him. He challenged the monk and could not beat him. Zhao followed him all the way from Shanxi to Shaolin and there begged the monks to teach him this Soft method. While there, Zhao exchanged knowledge with the monks and four sets of Hong Quan were developed based on merging techniques that he had learned and this Shaolin soft method.

These sets were later called “Lao” to differentiate them from Li Sou’s sets of Da Hong Quan that were introduced to Shaolin centuries later. They used the Flood character for Hong because the postures were done in a long string of flowing hard and soft movements and that were used to overwhelm an opponent like a flooding river. Even though the Xiao Hong Quan set is attributed to Li Sou (as are the much different Da Hong Quan sets), it shares a number of postures with those of the Lao Hong Quan sets attributed to Zhao Kuangyin. Either they were mixed over time, or this commonality alludes to a common origin point between the two different Shaolin Hong Quan styles. The Lao Hong Quan sets are still practiced in the Dengfeng Village area of Henan.

- Shaolin Da Hong Quan - Both an ancient book titled “Feng Chen Quan Shu Mi Lu” – ‘Dust in the Wind Boxing Method Secret Record’ (風塵拳朮秘錄) and Shaolin’s oral history handed down through the generations say that Zhao created the original Shaolin Hong Quan sets, and left them his martial art manuals and notes. Zhao stopped in Shaolin for a short period when he was traveling and exchanged martial art knowledge with the monks; while there he was taught Rou Quan (Soft Boxing) and he gave the monks a gift of a set of Hong Quan movements that he developed. According to the “Feng Chen Quan Shu Mi Lu”, after Zhao left Shaolin, he went into the military, became emperor, and later unified China into one empire, saying he “attacked the eastern gate (Guandong) to enter the western gate (Guanxi)” – “Da Guandong, Chuang Guanxi” (打关东,创关西). Both this book and also the Shaolin Hong Quan song formulas for these sets mention this same saying. The Shaolin song formula calls the full name of the three-section Da Hong Quan set as the “Taizu Guandong Da Hong Quan”. Guandong means Northeastern China, usually Guan County in Shandong Province. Guandong Quan was a long fist style that was originally practiced by the Chinese Muslims there before it reached the Shaolin area. Guanxi usually means the Shanxi province (where their Hong Quan – Red Fist – was originally called Guanzhong Quan – Western Boxing).

- Big Swan or Vast Fist. Being that Zhao Kuangyin was a military person and before that a trained martial artists, it was probable that he knew the local Yellow River area martial arts that many military people practiced since the Sui and Tang eras. The Liubu Jia routine of the 大鸿拳 - Da Hong Quan (Big Vast / Swan Fist) style that was popular throughout the Luoyang / Yellow River basin areas. Many postures from seen in the Lao Hong Quan routines are also found in the Liubu Jia set from this Da Hong Quan. During his time period, and listed in General Qi Jiguang’s book as being on of the sets in the Taizu Chang Quan system, was the Liubu Jia (Six Step Frame), which was famous for a technique called “San Huang Bang” (Three Dazzling Wings / Upper Arms). The movements and postures of the Liubu Jia routine appear as a prototypical forerunner to those later seen in almost all northern long fist styles named Hong Quan and Chang Quan. For example, this San Huang Bang movement is the same as the “JinJi Duli” – “Golden Rooster Independently Stands” posture that is found in all Chang Quan, Hong Quan, and Taiji Quan styles. The Single Whip (Dan Bian) posture is found in all these styles as well.

4 - 13 Famous Spear - LFJ already told you info about that one. There are a LOT of Taizu weapons sets all over the area between Shandong, Henan, and Shaanx.

Also, in Henan near the Shaolin area there is a whole Taizu Quan style that famous people such as Zhu Tianxi, Shi Dejian, and Shi Deqian (RIP) all learned in their youth. They are all very mum about this style, it forms the base to all their learned and they keep it all quiet for some reason.

[Sal Canzonieri]

5. Hong Quan styles -

Guandong and Guanxi routines - these are supposed to be related to sets from the Shanxi area.

- Shaanxi Hong (Red) Quan says that their foundational set is called Tai Zu Hong Quan 36 Postures, which they say came from when Zhao Kuangyin was in his early 20s and while traveling in Shanxi (I think rather than Shaanxi), he learned the local Guanzhong boxing there and developed this set. (Note: Hong (Flood) character was later changed to Hong (Red) during Qing dynasty.) This style is practiced between Shandong / Henan and Shaanxi / Gansu areas, so it is pretty widespread and influenced almost all the Hong Quan style found today.

- Wudang Hongquan 武当洪拳 - According to the legend of its foundation, this style was created by a Taoist monk on Wudang Mountain during the Song dynasty. As the secular family name of this monk was Hong 洪, the style was called Hongquan Wudang. Among the empty hand forms are included the:
关东架 - Guandong Jia (Eastern Pass Frame);
关西架 - Guanxi Jia (Western Pass Frame);
太平架 - Tai Ping Jia (frame of peace Supreme or Grand Level);
十八路对练打捶 - 18 Lu Dui Lian Da Chui (18 Roads of Connected Hammers);
三十六摔 - 36 Shuai (36 Throwdowns);
七十二擒拿手 - 72 Qinna Shou (72 Seizing Hands);
抓门道功夫 - Zhao Men Dao Gongfu (Snatching School Way), and others.
Among the weapons forms are:
dan dao - 单刀; Shuang guai -双拐; Shou shao zi - 手梢子; Si jie tang - 四节镗; Chun qiu da dao - 春秋大刀; and others.

But, two sets from this style, the Guandongjia and Guanxijia, correspond to two routines said to be created by Song Taizu, respectively the 36 Lu Chang Quan (36 Road Long Fist) 三十六路长拳 and the 366 Shou Chang Quan (366 Hands Long Fist) 三百六十六手长拳. Also, there is a correspondence of movements and correspondence of many names in the Taolu with the Shaanxi Hongquan, despite their claim that the origins are different, indicating that they share a common origin.

- Hubei Hong Quan - The roots of this style come from the Taizu Chang Quan. It is also influenced by Wudang Quan. Two-way spear holding plays are the main methods to deal with the Hubei Hong Quan, which emphasizes both attack and defense. Most of the routines of the Hubei Hong Quan are empty hand sets, such as the general hand plays, defensive hand plays, Jingang (Buddha's warrior attendant) hand plays, etc. Its major sets are:
Gold General's Hand (Jin Zong Shou), Jamming Hand (Feng Shou), Big Combination Hand (Da Zhong Shou), and Gold Splitting Fist (Jin Pi Quan).

- Sichuan Hong Jia Quan – This style is very rare to see and is practiced by the direct descendants of Zhao Kung Yin's relatives (nephews) who moved to Sichuan province during the flight out during the early part of the Southern Song dynasty and lists the following hand sets: Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan, Hong Men Chui, and Hong Men Shou (red door hand).

- Er Lu Hongquan, 二路红拳 Two Section Red fist (not flood character) - Shandong province is the birthplace of this two routine style. In the Red fist legends, it is said that Zhao Kuangyin, the first emperor of the Song Dynasty had created it. But, the real time for the systematization of the style was recorded in the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911). At the 13th year of the Kangxi emperor reign (1674), the Two Part Red fist had been created between the provinces of Shandong and Shanxi.


Besides these there are these uncertain ones:

6. Lai Zhou Taizu Men - During the Qing dynasty, Shaolin monks traveling in the Ying Kou area of Liaoning province, in northeastern China, passed a series of martial art sets south to (Sheng) Cheng Lixian (盛力先) of Shandong province. He became a bodyguard in Qingdao, returning later to his home in Laizhu (莱州).

Some of the sets that they practiced were Taizhu Quan (3 parts and 4 sections) Chang Quan of 32 Postures and 108 Techniques, Tang Lang 13 Zhao, Small Tiger Swallow), Yui Jia Duanda Chui (Yue family Close Strike Hammers), Hei Hu Quan (Black Tiger Boxing), Da Hong Quan (Small Flood Fist), and 8 Drunken Immortals, among others: 太祖拳, 螳螂十三招, 小虎燕, 岳家捶, 黑虎拳, 梅花拳, 大洪拳, and 醉八仙等. The weapon sets were taizhu and Plum Flower based implements: 梅花刀, 梅花剑, 行者棍, 梅花枪, 梅花叠鞭, 虎尾三节棍 (即宋太祖盘龙棍), 八卦游龙剑, and 虎头双钩等.

Most of these sets are VERY similar to Misong / Yangxing Quan style from Shandong, which is also supposed to date back to early Song era in origin.

7. Bei Shaolin Quan Men – the Northern Long Fist Gate (School) that was developed by Han Qingtang (originally from Jimo County) includes a Taizu Chang Quan set amongst its 10 famous sets. Han studied Long Fist as a first generation pupil from the Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan. In Jimo, he first learned Shaolin Meihua Men from a Shaolin monk, Sun Mao Lin (孫茂林) and Jiang Benhe (姜本河), both being from Liangshan originally. This Meihua boxing is made up of three forms: Maifu Quan (埋伏拳); Shizi Tang (十字趟); Taizu Chang Quan (太祖长拳); also taught is a Duilian named Xiao Wushou (小五手).

Han also learned from several famous masters in Shandong Guoshu Guan, like Chang Bing-Zhang and Yang Ming-Zai. Han taught the Jai Men (Islamic) and Meihua (Plum Blossom) systems of Long Fist. The material may originally have come from Liangshan city, Jining County. People have long wondered where his Taizu Chang Quan set came from, since it shares many aspects with Mi Zhong Quan, Hua Quan, and Cha Quan, which are other local long fist styles. Han’s Taizu Chang Quan set is similar to Laizhou’s Taizu Chang Quan, so they may have come from the same original source. The two sets may appear different outwardly as far as the set’s movements go; but they are the same in style, sharing their shen fa, jing fa, and techniques.

8. Shandong Wendeng – during the Guanxu years (1875-1908) of Qing dynasty, Liu Mingshan of Wendeng County learned Shaolin martial arts. Later he settled in Harbin, Heilongjiang Province in Northeast China (Manchuria). They claim it comes from Zhao Kuangyin's original 18 Road sets. In Huang County, the style was also passed to Meng Qingyue. Liu taught 6 sections of an 18 section Taizu Chang Quan set, 24 Tan Tui, 5 roads of Taizu Pao Quan, Xiao Wu Shou (Small Five Hands), Qi Bu Lienhuan Chui (7 Step Linking Hammers), Taizu Single Knife, and various other weapons. Almost all these sets appear to come from either the 1600s via Dong Cheng’s Tongbei Quan style or from the 1500s via Dong’s parent style, Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan (Five Fists).

9. Yantai Taizu Chang Quan - this Yantai Shandong style teaches the Black Tiger and also the Hu Yan sets (Xiao, Zhong, and Da). It would appear from these sets that this style has been descended from Henan martial arts, including Mi Zhong Quan.

10. Ping Du area of Shandong - Shi Youshan spread this Taizu Chang Quan in Huimin County. It is thought that it comes from teachings of Chuan Zhangzhen. The sets practiced are: Taizu Chang Quan, Xiao Wu Shou, Five Fists Training, Ba Gong Chui (Eight Exercises Hammers) Training, Ba Feng Da Jia, and various weapons. These sets also appear to be from Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan system, showing a Shaolin origin.

11. Also from Ping Du area - Wang Zhijun's Taizu Quan, coming from Qing Emperor Daoguang's reign (1820-1850). Sets practiced are: 24 Tan Tui, Xiao Wu Shou, 12 Gong Shi (postures), Eight Standing Postures, and numerous drills instead of sets. Again these sets appear to be from Bai Yufeng’s Wu Quan system, showing a Shaolin origin.

12. From Jimo area of Shandong - Gao Fang Xian's Sun Bin Quan system also practiced a Taizu Quan Four Sections set, as well as Taizu weapons sets.

13. Shandong General Leng Taizu Quan - this family style emphasizes the staff, was taught by Liu Yi. Style comes from a Ming era warlord named Leng. Supposedly it is more ancient? It has a Tang Dynasty Snake Staff set. They practice a Taizu Four Section Advancing (Jin) Chang Quan and Six Roads of Hammers (Bai Ma Quan Siang (White Horse Circles Toward); Ye Li Cang Hua (Leaves Hide the Flowers); Siba (Three Seizing); Ba Ge-zi (Eight measured Words); Zhan Na Chui (Beheading Grab Hammer); and Yan Qing).

14. Shandong Rushan area – Xiao Mingkui taught Zhong Yushun a Taizu Chang Quan set that was also called Xiao Hong Yan (Small Red Flame).

15. Mizong Quan / Yan Qing Quan – both styles are practiced in Hebei and Shandong province, and practice a Taizu Chang Quan set.

16. Cangzhou, Hebei province Taizu Chang Quan - came about during the Qing dynasty, from material taught by "a monk" in the Cang Zhou area of Hebei province. Two different versions of this style exist there. One is from Zhao Yao Tong, who taught Mi Zhong and Taizu Chang Quan to Liu Yun Qiao. This Taizu set is called ‘Supporting Slow Fist’ - Cheng Man Quan. The postures are not like other Taizu Chang Quan sets, but rather like the 32 postures in General Qi Jiguang’s book.

17. The second Cangzhou county Taizu Quan is from a Monk “Shun Yuan He Shang”, during the Kangxi era (1661-1722) of Qing dynasty. The style was passed to Song Yicheng and his son. Sets include: Yi Lu Taizu Quan, Er Lu Taizu Quan, Xing Bu Quan, 12 Tan Tui, and various weapons.

18. Sichuan Emei Zhao Men – the style is named for a series of sets done in Emei that are said to be collected from the Song dynasty. Despite linking itself to Zhao Kuangyin, it is pretty much the same sets as seen in Shaanxi Hong Quan.

[GeneChing]

The version I practice is probably closest to the second to the last Shaolin TZQ yt vid on Sal's initial post. I love it despite it not being the 'real internal way to do this set' :rolleyes:

There's another Songshan Shaolin TZQ one here, a demo from Tiger Claw's KungFuMagazine.com Championships 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXWB-h8rr2c). It starts at about 30 secs.

[bawang]

wow thanks for all these cool info about taizuquan! i love learning about old chinese quan fa. a lot of things i thought i knew about shaolinquan is wrong , every time i read u i learn something new thank u for educating people about shaolin kung fu
mister canzonieri ,have u tried comparing their open door posture(signature move) and individual techniques? i find long fist all share the same techniques, just put in different order in the taolu, for example like u said, single whip, pat horse, etc

[Sal Canzonieri]

wow thanks for all these cool info about taizuquan! i love learning about old chinese quan fa. a lot of things i thought i knew about shaolinquan is wrong , every time i read u i learn something new thank u for educating people about shaolin kung fu
mister canzonieri ,have u tried comparing their open door posture(signature move) and individual techniques? i find long fist all share the same techniques, just put in different order in the taolu, for example like u said, single whip, pat horse, etc

Cool, thanks, much appreciated. You'll love my book then (once it finally comes out) as it has all the many years of research notes I gathered and tells the actual info on how one style is related to another style and how and why.

Yes, I have compared all these postures.

Basically, if you learn Shaolin Rou Quan sets, TZ Chang Quan set, and the old Big Swan Fist's Liu Bu Jia set, then you have already just about learned everything that is later seen in Shaolin Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Tongbi Quan, and so on, and just about most other Long Fist styles, especially Mi Zong / Yang Qing Quan, Mei Hua Quan, and so on.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The version I practice is probably closest to the second to the last Shaolin TZQ yt vid on Sal's initial post. I love it despite it not being the 'real internal way to do this set' :rolleyes:

There's another Songshan Shaolin TZQ one here, a demo from Tiger Claw's KungFuMagazine.com Championships 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXWB-h8rr2c). It starts at about 30 secs.

heheh, well, the way it's taught nowadays from Shaolin is missing some movements and postures, and doesn't show the soft / hard duality.
But, yes, it is a great set and you can learn a lot from it. I've been doing it for decades and still love it.

You can read all about the internal version of this set if Gene publishes the article I submitted to him a few weeks ago about this set and it's history and attributes.

[bawang]

hey man by the way, i was comparing qi jiguang's 32 taizu to taijiquan to see how the movements changed, i found 31 out of 32 but cant find the technique pao jiazi "抛架子". its stepping forward aggresively then pi and gua attacks. the name either means "throw away your stance", or "catapult" for the wide swinging pigua attack. do u know anything about this technique? im frustrated because i cant find this movement in taijiquan at all

[Sal Canzonieri]

hey man by the way, i was comparing qi jiguang's 32 taizu to taijiquan to see how the movements changed, i found 31 out of 32 but cant find the technique pao jia "抛架". its stepping forward aggresively then pi and gua attacks. the name either means "throw away your stance", or "catapult" for the wide swinging pigua attack. do u know anything about this technique?

Well, there's some confusion about this set based on how literal or liberal people are translating the language into English.
He never actually says that this is a Taizu set, people assume it is because it is 32 postures and on previous pages he talks about the 32 posture TZ set.

But, to me, it clearly says that this set is samples of the best moves from Ming era styles, from 16 of the best ones that he named previously.

Ever since, people have thought that the stuff shown is directions to do a routine, but they are not, the movements don't go into each other, you have to force them to do so (yes, there are people that have done this very well, but their was never any actual routine shown in Qi's book).

Chen TJQ to retrofit what they do (and obscure that they got it all from Shaolin and Tongbei Quan) renamed their postures using General Qi's book whenever they found something that kinda looked like a Chen TJQ posture.

BUT, the truth is that about three of the 32 postures are from the Ba Shan Fan (now called Fanzi Quan) style; they are the postures not seen in Chen TJQ.

There's been a lot written about this in Chinese articles. The actual Shaolin TZ Chang Quan 32 set can be followed alongside Chen TJQ Yi Lu, and this is even mentioned in newer Chen TJQ books that have been published. Since the cat is out of the bag with so many articles proving it.
My own articles have been translated into Chinese by people and published in TJQ magazines (I gave permission some years ago for the translations to be made).

[bawang]

thanks man, i was suspecting the same thing. this is what i hate about chinese kung fu, there is a lot of misinformation

i still think that qijiguang's 32 postures is written gold, it gives a good insight into what was considered good quan fa
chen family changing technique names to qijiguang's book is possible, stilll it doesnt rule out some can be techniques changed over time, some times movements can change so much its hard to believe

[Royal Dragon]

heheh, well, the way it's taught nowadays from Shaolin is missing some movements and postures, and doesn't show the soft / hard duality.
But, yes, it is a great set and you can learn a lot from it. I've been doing it for decades and still love it.

You can read all about the internal version of this set if Gene publishes the article I submitted to him a few weeks ago about this set and it's history and attributes.

Reply]
At some point, you should really get together with Gene, and show him your version of this set. I am sure he'd appreciate it considering he loves this set so much.

I know a good 14 versions of it now. The two I learned from you are by far my favorites.

The other 12 sort of all got jumbled, and I end up mixing and matching them. I never do it the same way twice when I reveiew them.

[Tainan Mantis]

Qi Jiguang's chapter 'Fist Classic' only attributes one technique to Song Taizu.


Patting Horse was passed down from Taizu all postures can be lowered and changed, charging forward to attack withdrawing retreating to shun, able to change a weak position to a strong one. The extreme perfect and best of short fist.

Again, in his ‘Chiu Liu Maneuver’ it mentions ‘pat on horse,’

”Switching and changing evenly from pat on horse, striking people and taking their life.”





(from the book, The Dragons of Shanghai).


Couldn't find it on Amazon, where could I find this book?

Taizu's nephew went to battle against the Khitan, sadly lost, but his invention of the Jade Maiden afterwards makes for interesting history.

Tai Mountain Crushes the Top (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/taishan%20crushes%20the%20top.htm)

[GeneChing]

Funny you should mention that, Sal. I was toying with the idea of doing a piece that fleshes some of the fundamental taiji principles out of that very form. I see plenty of internal methods within it, but perhaps I'm projecting. I tend to do that with a lot of forms. It's a result of having so many teachers, especially with the Songshan Shaolin forms. Sometimes I fill gaps with other material. That being said, I've only learned one version of TZQ, and that's from my current teacher Yan Fei.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Funny you should mention that, Sal. I was toying with the idea of doing a piece that fleshes some of the fundamental taiji principles out of that very form. I see plenty of internal methods within it, but perhaps I'm projecting. I tend to do that with a lot of forms. It's a result of having so many teachers, especially with the Songshan Shaolin forms. Sometimes I fill gaps with other material. That being said, I've only learned one version of TZQ, and that's from my current teacher Yan Fei.

Cool, then you should read the article about that set that I emailed you a few weeks ago, it details the internal aspects of the set. You can use it to help you with your article.
(and if you print my article, it would make a cool TZ Chang Quan themed issue!)

[Sal Canzonieri]

Couldn't find it on Amazon, where could I find this book?


That book is not available for sale. You can only get it on inter-library loans, with permission from the publisher. I was able to read it that way only.
It's a beautiful large sized format book about the history of the Shanghai Henan Shaolin school that moved to NYC and then Canada.

[Sal Canzonieri]

When I later learned Rou Quan though, everything in the internal version of TZ Chang Quan totally made a million times more sense.

Then, Chen and other TJQ made more sense, and so did Henan Tongbei Quan too.

TZ Chang Quan is a very important set, and clearly is the Grand Ancestor of Shaolin martial arts.

BUT< one thing that seems to be lost to modern practitioners, the fact that it is called Chang Quan makes people think that it is a "Long Fist" set like the Shandong martial arts of Cha and Hua Quan.
But in this case Chang meant FLOWING (like HONG too), like a long river.
The set is done like a river flowing suddenly one way and then suddenly another way.
In fact, it's fighting applications are to close the gap "using long to go short".
It is considered a "Duan Da", close strike, martial art in the old Shaolin teachings about this set.
It represents what the Song era martial arts were like, especially the Wen Family martial art (such as Ba Shan Fan and so on), they were close range attacks using long movements to bridge first and then close in.

Royal Dragon can attest how I did this very thing in applications on him. He was on the floor very fast and smoothly, from a far bridge touch to a near takedown finish.

[GeneChing]

I'll give it a harder look soon for sure, once I clear some things on the current issue in production. While a TZQ themed-issue is appealing to me in a scholarly sense, it's way too secular for the newsstands. But I might run your piece and mine in a shotgun parallel fashion. I've done that before and it can produce some interesting results. We'll see. I'll let you more via email, when I get to the next submission review.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's an illustration of a connection between TZ Chang Quan and TJQ:

The "signature" movement of Zhao Kuangyin was the Qi Shou Rising Hands, which in TJQ is called Ward Off or Peng. In the TZ Chang Quan set, it is the second posture, right after "Dredging Ocean for the Moon" (1st posture).

In this video, of TJQ Peng / Ward Off application, it is IDENTICAL to TZ Chang Quan Lifting Hands application (and to Rou Quan's Luohan 13 Gong - first posture "Old Man Splits Wood"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy1uF8MdN54

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's one of the best explanations I've seen that matches how the opening movements of Taizu Chang Quan operate (and links it to how internal martial arts operate):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA

[Skip J.]

Here's one of the best explanations I've seen that matches how the opening movements of Taizu Chang Quan operate (and links it to how internal martial arts operate):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKxXVBbmA
Hello Sal;

I have noticed that most taijiquan movements incorporate a posture that involves a redirect of the "enemy" before "settling in" to the posture.

However, some do have a step back in various ways that incorporate leading the enemy - allowing the momentum of the enemy to slide past and then attack him while he is off balance. Very similar to the clip indeed.

Should I need some taijiquan on the street, I believe the step back opening "leading" him to off balance is the one I would chose on short notice...

My only comment is that the translation was distracting and delayed the action to where there actually was very little shown of the leading movement.

Still, well done!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hello Sal;

I have noticed that most taijiquan movements incorporate a posture that involves a redirect of the "enemy" before "settling in" to the posture.

However, some do have a step back in various ways that incorporate leading the enemy - allowing the momentum of the enemy to slide past and then attack him while he is off balance. Very similar to the clip indeed.

Should I need some taijiquan on the street, I believe the step back opening "leading" him to off balance is the one I would chose on short notice...

My only comment is that the translation was distracting and delayed the action to where there actually was very little shown of the leading movement.

Still, well done!

Peter Ralston studied many different styles and realized the internal guts that make them all work and also spent decades investigating what actually works for real.
His books are amazing, if you have never read them.

He doesn't advocate redirecting ( I think Yang style TJQ does that more than Chen or Wu).

He fights like a bull fighter does, which is exactly how Shaolin Rou Quan (and thus Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan) fights.
If you watch videos of bull fighters they do this leading and roll back as a simultaneous defense and attack movement, which is what real Chinese martial arts are supposed to be about at heart.

If you want to see more of what he was doing, go to his website and watch the videos there:

http://www.chenghsin.com/cliplist.html

Everything I have ever learned in Shaolin Rou Quan, he seems to do as well, so maybe he learned it too, or maybe he "gets" it from his insights and experience?

[Skip J.]

Peter Ralston studied many different styles and realized the internal guts that make them all work and also spent decades investigating what actually works for real.
His books are amazing, if you have never read them.

He doesn't advocate redirecting ( I think Yang style TJQ does that more than Chen or Wu).

He fights like a bull fighter does, which is exactly how Shaolin Rou Quan (and thus Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan) fights.
If you watch videos of bull fighters they do this leading and roll back as a simultaneous defense and attack movement, which is what real Chinese martial arts are supposed to be about at heart.

If you want to see more of what he was doing, go to his website and watch the videos there:

http://www.chenghsin.com/cliplist.html

Everything I have ever learned in Shaolin Rou Quan, he seems to do as well, so maybe he learned it too, or maybe he "gets" it from his insights and experience?

Ah well, maybe 15% of the movements I have learned so far incorporate a roll back as an intregal part. In watching him on his website - thanks for the link by the way, he's a cool instructor I must say - anyway; he is much more comfortable with letting the opponent slide by, and then starting his movement.

After his study of all 3 major internal "arts" and coming from the fighting experience of his previous external systems.. I would say he has intuited from each a contribution to the particular area he concentrates in. I noticed 3 or 4 different movements besides the roll back where he emphasizes an unusual movement. In someone less well trained in many systems, you mite say he would pick and chose what he liked and dropped the rest. But in his case, kinda like Bruce Lee, he advocates cutting away what doesn't work in the real world, and teaches the rest as worthwhile knowing.

For instance, in the pushing video, he gets up very close - more like an external attack style; but then he pushes with his entire body weight, a very taiji-like principle.

Sal, you mite try this thread over on the taijiquan forum. Those long-term guys over there know their stuff.

[bawang]

hey mister canzonieri isnt that just dodging left and right? it looks like a basic turning dodge

[Sal Canzonieri]

hey mister canzonieri isnt that just dodging left and right? it looks like a basic turning dodge

Yes, he's using KF technique.
It's in Shuai Jiao, it's in Fanzi Quan, it's in Shaolin, it's in Tongbei Quan, etc., etc.

The trick is to be like a bull fighter, lead the attacker on towards you and then never let the "bull" make contact as it is forced to pass you out of its range, from the side or rear you can attack them with no counterattack.

That's how a bull fighter stays alive against a raging bull.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

In the early 80's I wrote an article in Inside Kungfu (I think is was the 1983 January issue) on Shaolin's basics of evading armed attackers. Evading is both core and an advance part of
Shaolin.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,

In the early 80's I wrote an article in Inside Kungfu (I think is was the 1983 January issue) on the basics evading in Shaolin in relation to fighting armed attackers. Evading as both core and advance part of
Shaolin.

r.

Cool, I might have that issue.

Read your Dragons of Shanghai book by the way. Fantastic book!

I agree evading is the core foundation in Shaolin that allows one to have self defense without fighting (by fighting I mean going toe to toe and trading blows until the best man wins).
Evading is the FIRST thing I teach in my classes. I start with western boxing, showing how evading is used, from there I move to Chinese MA styles of evading.

Starting with Western Boxing really helps people understand the concept and move their bodies correctly in preparation for Chinese MA.
Of course the way I teach Western Boxing is much more internal oriented.

Started with boxing as in high school and later had lessons with Frank Allan (he wanted to say that he coached a relative of Tony Canzonieri, the 1930s / 40s world champion). he also teaches Bagua, XY, and TJQ.

Shaolin evading is very effective, to me all the ideas of evading and their movements are found in bull fighting.
Shuai Jiao was originally based on Gou Ti, which was a type of bull fighting.
Opponents wore horned helmets, it didn't take long for evasive fightwork and so on to develop from that! Do or die! From this Shuai Jiao developed, which has a strong influence on Shaolin's development.
Shuai Jiao (wasn't called that back then) was a major component of ancient martial arts.

Shaolin Luohan Quan has much in common with Shuai Jiao. Once my Shuai Jiao teacher and I went posture by posture in some Luohan Quan sets and did the Shuai Jiao equivalent to them. They match very well.
Bagua of course is firmly rooted in Shuai Jiao and Shaolin Luohan.

[Skip J.]

....I agree evading is the core foundation in Shaolin that allows one to have self defense without fighting (by fighting I mean going toe to toe and trading blows until the best man wins). Evading is the FIRST thing I teach in my classes. I start with western boxing, showing how evading is used, from there I move to Chinese MA styles of evading.......

....Shaolin evading is very effective, to me all the ideas of evading and their movements are found in bull fighting.........
In this months issue of Gene's excellent print magazine, Master Helen Liang has a wonderful article on the "Taiji 13 Postures". While all of them are in there - Lu - roll-back - is well explained. In the opening pages she says ..."lead the coming force into emptiness" and "use four ounces to neutralize one thousand pounds".... very much what Mr. Ralston is demonstrating......

On the third page under Lu - Roll Back she says " Lu involves using the hands to roll back and neutralize the coming force or make your opponent lose balance. However, when applying the technique of Lu, it is not enough to use only the jin of your arms and waist, as this may only work on beginners. To make it fully effective, the coordination of footwork is required. When you are applying Lu on the left side, your left leg must step back ( houtui) and your body must turn slightly to the left ( zuogu). With a right-hand-side Lu, your right leg needs to step beck while your body turns to the right ( youpan)."

[Eugene]

I have seen the article of Taizu Chan Quan, and my head if stuffed with amazing info.

Shi Heng Jun teatches Taizu Chan Quan in Frence I believe, is there maybe because on you tube Shi Heng Jun shows it half, a performence by one of his french studens on you tube ?

I am a fan of Shi Heng Jun`s performence of the Taizu.

When it says Long Fist boxing, or long range, does that mean maybe many moves with stretched arms ?
And for the long range, maybe it is usefull agains a weapon ?

:) Eugene

[GeneChing]

A search on 'taizu' coughs up nearly 50 threads. And I'm sure there are more. It's a highly discussed topic here. I'm merging your post with this thread, which is one of our more recent ones and has a lot of video links.

One of these days, I should merge more of the taizu threads together...

[shaolinche]

This Tai Zu Chang Quan is Er Lu. There is also an Yi Lu, but I don't have a video of it I can post as of yet. There is also an Er Lu Dui Da (two man).

This is a rare Tai Zu Chang Quan form, that I have not seen anywhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRr7j2J8Vk

[Sal Canzonieri]

This Tai Zu Chang Quan is Er Lu. There is also an Yi Lu, but I don't have a video of it I can post as of yet. There is also an Er Lu Dui Da (two man).

This is a rare Tai Zu Chang Quan form, that I have not seen anywhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRr7j2J8Vk

Yeah, I posted that link before.

I never saw that form before as well. That lineage has 4 TZ sets.

Don't know much about this lineage, it doesn't look related to anything else I've seen.

[Eugene]

Could be that this link was up here somewhere but I just came across it on You Tube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLDG4OTkmYg&feature=related

Look from 0:54 and he starts Taizu,

Gr. Eugene :)

[David Jamieson]

hey remember these old clips?
lol!

this is from some film back in the 70s or 80s

this clip has a bunch of the hard gong training.
check outthe locks and dumbell training on the jongs! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb7BSEuIiKk

[Eugene]

Another link,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkEW6v1bHHE&feature=related

Shi Heng Jun, learning his disclipels

[Sal Canzonieri]

Another link,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkEW6v1bHHE&feature=related

Shi Heng Jun, learning his disclipels

Interesting internal soft and hard version (only a piece of the set shown).

It is pretty close to the internal version I was taught, skips the intro to the set, and does some of the transitions differently than my version, but getting there.

[Eugene]

here are some other links maybe it helps,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOsIYqjolH8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRISNvbGzVw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szvbWuFsheA ( Shaolin Culture ) nice to see

If it helps for the research of this set ! ( I watch a lot of videos ;) )

Peace Eugene

[Eugene]

http://vodpod.com/watch/919453-taizu-quan-gm-liao-wu-chang-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6nctVSIAx8


Peace Eugene

[Eugene]

http://www.56.com/u68/v_MjA1NjU3NDU.html

http://v.mofile.com/show/X4IK9X8V.shtml ( this man jumps from a tree when he starts haha, amazing performence !)

Maybe the next one is already up there, dunno

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XNTc2Mjc1Mg==.html ( shi deqian ? )

Peace Eugene

[Sal Canzonieri]

here are some other links maybe it helps,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOsIYqjolH8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRISNvbGzVw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szvbWuFsheA ( Shaolin Culture ) nice to see

If it helps for the research of this set ! ( I watch a lot of videos ;) )

Peace Eugene

This one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOsIYqjolH8&feature=related
of all the videos on youtube shows the missing intro and transition moves, BUT he moves his hips too far out of square, it's very external. Too bad, as he comes closest to doing the set with the right moves that are often skipped or never learned by most people.

The other two videos are junk, they are doing the set too fast for their ability level and doing improper body mechanics and alignments.

[B-Rad]

http://www.56.com/u68/v_MjA1NjU3NDU.html

http://v.mofile.com/show/X4IK9X8V.shtml ( this man jumps from a tree when he starts haha, amazing performence !)

Maybe the next one is already up there, dunno

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XNTc2Mjc1Mg==.html ( shi deqian ? )

Peace Eugene

I think you messed up on that middle one. It's a great modern wushu chang quan performance, but not related to tai zu chang quan at all (and there's no jumping from a tree) ;)

[Eugene]

Sorry B-rad, it wasnt my intention :)

[Eugene]

The 32 set of general qi, was it called : Qi Quanjing ? Or Song Taizu Quan ?

[Sal Canzonieri]

The 32 set of general qi, was it called : Qi Quanjing ? Or Song Taizu Quan ?

The general's name is Qi Jiguang.

One of 16-18 styles he mentions is Song Taizu Quan.

The 32 set he showed is not a set but is a mixture of the best Postures that he says are found in common amongst these different styles from his time period (1500s).

People mistakenly think he showed a 32 move Song TZ Quan set, because there is a 32 move song TZ Chang Quan set in existence, but it is not like Qi's set that he showed. There also are postures shown from Bashan Fan style, which he mentioned in the book as well, as being one of the very best styles.

[Eugene]

Is Generals Qi Jiguang`s *Qi* Quanjing 32 postures, practiced today ?

I downloaded the translation yesterday, and the 32 lyrics seems if someone is a master at knowing all the stance names etc, the set is * Do`able ? is that a good english word even ?

I dont even know the first stance yet, * assume the * Going out the door Position :(

If the general in this time pulled out the best 32 stances/postures, in his opinion, it sounds almost as the best of all then, like someone would make a 32 set now, and take something of karate, ninjitsu, tai chi, etc

So he would have picked some stances from the Song Taizu Quan set ?

And is the Shaolin Taizu Quan the same as the Song Taizu Quan, maybe its up here already.

Peace

[Eugene]

In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon' (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung's Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi's book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned


I know you people have discussed this issue in 2005, but are these drawings mentioned for real ?

[GeneChing]

Note that there will be two articles on Taizu in our 2010 Shaolin Special (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56631). One is by our distinguished member here, Sal, and the other is by yours truly. What's more, if you're a subscriber (http://www.martialartsmart.com/19341.html), you'll get a free DVD with a demonstration of Taizu filmed in our studios here.

Click the link for a vid of Yanqing's Taizu. This version is very close to the one that I do.


Yuma karate students learn from Shaolin monk (http://www.yumasun.com/news/qing-56833-steuver-years.html)
March 08, 2010 5:34 PM
BY CHRIS McDANIEL - SUN STAFF WRITER

The martial arts students who take karate classes once a week at the Yuma Boys and Girls Club were treated to a demonstration by a real Shaolin monk Friday.

Shi Yan Qing, (pronounced shur yan ching), showed off some of the skills he has learned through many years of Spartan living and training at the the Shaolin Monastery at Song Shan near Zhengzhou City, Henan Province in Dengfeng, China.

The Buddhist monastery is considered by many scholars as the birthplace of kung fu.

Qing, who has met the pope and Vladimir Putin, traveled to Yuma with Mark Steuver, who teaches the karate classes. The classes are offered through Young Champions of America, a national organization that is committed to making a difference in the lives of children by providing youth programs.

Qing is in the United States to spread peace through kung fu, and is staying with Steuver. Steuver, who lives in Casa Grande and travels to Yuma once a week to teach, was once Qing's student in China.

"He was first an apprentice of a guy who was teaching me, and I especially liked the way he was teaching me," Steuver said.

"We become good friends. We call each other brothers even though it is not very custom-like in China."

Steuver spent three years in China studying, and while there earned the name Shi Yan Jian. The former police officer now teaches martial arts classes in Casa Grande, Phoenix and Yuma.

"I want my students to learn how to socially interact in public and have self-confidence so they can go through life without fear and build their self esteem," he said.

Steuver's students sat quietly in the gymnasium as Qing brought kung fu to life, moving with a grace and form instilled in him through years of discipline and meditation.

After his demonstration, Qing granted an interview with the Yuma Sun. Steuver translated the Chinese into English and visa versa.

Qing has been studying kung fu since he was a young child.

"Now it's been 16 years," Qing said. "I was 8 years old when I left for the monastery. When I first left the house I was really excited and wanted to go, because I fell in love with kung fu when I was little, but once I got started, it was hard and I really missed my home. Now that I am a grown man I am glad I did it."

Qing said it took three years of living at the monastery before he became a monk.

"You also have to pass all the tests. You have to be a Buddhist first and you have to already know some kung fu. They interview you and if your kung fu is sloppy and lazy, they think your character is bad and they won't accept you."

Qing said the tests required serious concentration.

"Learning the mantras and doing meditation was hardest because you have to sit without moving for over an hour. Then you are allowed to change one leg, then sit for another hour, and then change the other leg, and sit for another hour before you change the other leg."

Qing said he had to learn how to master his pain.

"When you first start it is very painful, but after a year or so you don't even notice it."

Qing said he is impressed with the way his former student now teaches.

"He is very good. He is a lot different then when I first met him."

Qing said he has a purpose for being in America.

"I want to spread peace, and I think I can do that through kung fu and teaching people about Buddhism and Chinese culture."

Qing said there are many different forms of kung fu.

"There are many styles and many places in the world that have good kung fu. But the Shaolin Monastery is the birth place of all martial arts. Kung Fu's essence isn't about fighting or violence. It is only about integrating the mind, body and spirit to become healthy in all aspects of being."

Qing wants to establish himself in the United States, and hopes to teach kung fu.

"If everything goes right, I will be an old man here, but right now I only have a short visa and I am trying to get that extended. If I am useful I can stay longer."

Steuver will soon offer a new semester of karate classes and is inviting the public to enroll their kids aged 4 to 15. For more information call 520-836-0459 or log onto youngchampionsofamerica.org.
Young Champions is the same org that Wu Bin was promoting in '97. See Wu Bin - The Father of Modern Wushu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=694) by Melody Chung.

[Eugene]

That is pritty cool GeneChing,

I am looking forward to read the stories of the Taizu stuff :)

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, the diagram is real, BUT the postures do not match the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The NAMES are very similar to Chen Taiji though, but the postures do not mach that either.

[Royal Dragon]

Is Generals Qi Jiguang`s *Qi* Quanjing 32 postures, practiced today ?

I downloaded the translation yesterday, and the 32 lyrics seems if someone is a master at knowing all the stance names etc, the set is * Do`able ? is that a good english word even ?

Peace

Reply]
I know someone who does these postures as a set, and it looks very good from what I see.

I also know that the Nanjing Kuoshu (I think it was them, I forgot) school taught a set based on the postures called the "32 Killing Fists". If I am not mistaken though, it is a recent creation to give form to what was originally just loose postures compiled on paper.

The person I know who does the set may very well know this set from Nanjing, or he could actually be doing a much older form, we simply don't know at this time.

My suspicion however, is that he's doing the same 32 Killing Fists taught at the Nanjing Koushou academy.

[Eugene]

Royal Dragon : I know someone who does these postures as a set, and it looks very good from what I see

I tought there might be a person out there who would combine these postures into a set yah :)

Thx for the reply,

Is that school in China ?

[bawang]

Yes, the diagram is real, BUT the postures do not match the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The NAMES are very similar to Chen Taiji though, but the postures do not mach that either.

hi, i disagree ,the applications are the same. the 32 text uses longfist codewords. it will be gibberish to other people.
the postures are not identical because "there are countless variations" (pat horse, page 2)


i think the techniques can be done in a set, but:

- forms was looked down or bannd in most of the ming military, (Formation Treatise: "It is banned among the military, this useless gimmick.") and qi army was an elite shocktroop division. and the diagrams are drawn in random positions to discourage making a form out of it.

- civillian manuals at that time have clear sequences and explanation. the 32 was like that for a reason.

-the chinese army trains real fighting and did not involve in our petty civillian kung fu politics. forms is for identifying lineage and legitimacy and for performance. the army has no use for that.



- if you tried making a form out of it, you will find it is very boring. karate looks more exciting. the applications are less effective versions of basic moves in kickboxing and judo. and thats not what people want.

[Royal Dragon]

Royal Dragon : I know someone who does these postures as a set, and it looks very good from what I see

I tought there might be a person out there who would combine these postures into a set yah :)

Thx for the reply,

Is that school in China ?

Reply]
The school is in Australia, BUT they learned it from thier Chinese teachers. I am certian it is the 32 killing fists, but I have never seen another example of the Nanjing set ever done anywhere. All I have is a chart of it, and to be honest I can't fully make sense of it.

Each posture however is done in the classic order, and the form is smooth and coherent. I need to examine it more closely to figure if it has legit martial applications, or if someone just connected the postures whit good looking transitions. I sort of shelved this perticular set and really focused on what i was getting from Sal for the last few years. Last time he and I met, he was tossing me around like a rag doll, despite having STAPLES in his gut from recent surgery. It was a fun time!

[Royal Dragon]

hi, i disagree ,the applications are the same. the 32 text uses longfist codewords. it will be gibberish to other people.
the postures are not identical because "there are countless variations" (pat horse, page 2)

Reply]
Actually, you are totally wrong here. I HAVE the Shaolin 32 posture Tai tzu set. It is my specialty and I know it very well. In fact, thanks to Sal, I know many details the mainstream does not know exist, and I have a fairly good understanding of the internals of it, enough too clearly see it performed completely INSIDE of the Chen style's first form.

In addition, I have thourally examined and studied sal's research on the subject and done extensive point by point comparisons of the Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu form and Chen style Tai Chi and found them to be nearly identical. Chen style really just adds stuff in between the Tai Tzu postures to make a longer form.

When one knows a set as well as I do, all it takes is a quick glance at the chart of Qi Jiguang's postures to know they are not really related much. They are not even variations.

With the exception of the several that were taken from the Shaolin 32, it's a totally different set of skills. And even the postures in common, are done in a totally different order (as seen in the chart, and in actual performance of the postures as a set)

It is blatantly clear that Qi jiguang's set is only marginally related, but the Shaolin 32 tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Chen style ARE direclty related to each other.


i think the techniques can be done in a set, but:

- forms was looked down or bannd in most of the ming military, (Formation Treatise: "It is banned among the military, this useless gimmick.") and qi army was an elite shocktroop division. and the diagrams are drawn in random positions to discourage making a form out of it.

Reply]
I am not so sure of that. There are several theories.

1. It IS a form (I have video of it beingg done as such)
2. It was never a form, and the postures are just singular training drills and applications.

If number 2 is the operative theory, it does make sense because Forms were only for Masters. They were use sort of like diplomas. You only learned it once you mastered the system to show you had a degree in the style. In actual training, you learned single two man application drills (Same as we do today).

If this is the case, then the order is just random, but got solidified because of the writings. If it's not the case, and it was a form, most likely used as a diploma,then it is possible my freind in Australia knows it.

Qi Jigang's form may also have been choreographed by the Nanjing Kuoshou academy from Qi Jigunag's writings too (32 Killing fists). I never concluded my research on that one.



- civillian manuals at that time have clear sequences and explanation. the 32 was like that for a reason.

Reply]
Can you expand on this?I am not sure what you mean?



-the chinese army trains real fighting and did not involve in our petty civillian kung fu politics. forms is for identifying lineage and legitimacy and for performance. the army has no use for that.


Reply]
Agreed




- if you tried making a form out of it, you will find it is very boring. karate looks more exciting. the applications are less effective versions of basic moves in kickboxing and judo. and thats not what people want.

Reply]
Actually, what I have on video is a very cool set. As for effectiveness, I clearly see some really good take downs and applications in the postures themselves. It's the transitions I question and need to look further into.

In conclusion, the Qi jiguang postures/formal routine, what have you, is not Chen taiji, nor is it the Shaolin 32 in any way, shape or form. The Chen Taiji however, is clearly built on the Shaolin 32 posture form, and in fact contains the entire set, done in order inside of it.

[bawang]

hi royal dragon, i dont do shaolin boxing and i dont know about it as you do. i know they have shaolin taizuquan inside chen tiajiquan but my knowledge about shaolinquan is too limited. to me i think theres influence from both.

have you read the fist poems of qijiguang's 32?

the chen family have 24 pear flower spear techniques with same sequence from qijiguang. does shaolin taizumen have it also?

in chen family thers 29 moves that share name with qijiguang's 32 and have same applications. are they all included in shaolin taizuchangquan?

thanks

[Royal Dragon]

hi royal dragon, i dont do shaolin boxing and i dont know about it as you do. i know they have shaolin taizuquan inside chen tiajiquan but my knowledge about shaolinquan is too limited. to me i think theres influence from both.

have you read the fist poems of qijiguang's 32?

Reply]
Yes, I have them translated in my library.

the chen family have 24 pear flower spear techniques with same sequence from qijiguang. does shaolin taizumen have it also?

Reply]
The Shaolin Tai Tzu does not have anything directly related to the Qi Jiguang sequence.

in chen family thers 29 moves that share name with qijiguang's 32 and have same applications. are they all included in shaolin taizuchangquan?

Reply]
This is not true. They only share the same names. The postures are,for the most part different, so are the applications. From what I can tell, Chen family got the *Names* of the postures from general Qi Jiguang's sequence, BUT they did not get the moves from it. The actual moves come from the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that was developed under the direction of Zhao Kuang Yin(He commissioned it's creation, not actually created it)

You seem to be in the same place research wise that I was about 6-7 years ago. What you need to do is learn the Shaolin 32 posture form (even just the introductory version) from Sal, or me, and then compare the songs and the form to Chen Taiji, followed by a close study of Qi Jiguang's sequence. You will see the Qi Jiguang is something different all together.

There is a book that has the translated Qi jiguang sequence in it, I think it's written by Douglas Wile? I don't have access to my library right now, but I am sure Sal can chime in with the name of the book.

[Sal Canzonieri]

In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon' (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung's Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi's book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned


I know you people have discussed this issue in 2005, but are these drawings mentioned for real ?

No, there is big confusion concerning this book.
It is just General Qi's set. Plain and simple, there is nothing in that book to say otherwise, people just started assuming it was the "original" Song TZ Chang Quan" set.
AND< clearly it is not, it is nothing at all like the actual 32 posture (it is really 54 movements not 32, they only say 32 because of General Qi's book).

[Sal Canzonieri]

hi royal dragon, i dont do shaolin boxing and i dont know about it as you do. i know they have shaolin taizuquan inside chen tiajiquan but my knowledge about shaolinquan is too limited. to me i think theres influence from both.

have you read the fist poems of qijiguang's 32?

the chen family have 24 pear flower spear techniques with same sequence from qijiguang. does shaolin taizumen have it also?

in chen family thers 29 moves that share name with qijiguang's 32 and have same applications. are they all included in shaolin taizuchangquan?

thanks

This all has been researched decades ago by people in China.
Chen TJQ took the Shaolin TZ postural movements and gave them the names from General Qi's book to hide where they got it from.
Why? Because Chen Wangting was friends with the big rebel Li that murdered all the Shaolin monks in a massacre ambush when they were praying. Well documented historical event. After that happened, everything became hush hush.
Chen TJQ = Shaolin TZ Quan + Tongbei Quan + Neijia Quan 13 Postures.
That's a well established fact.

Chen TJQ does also practice the staff and spear and other weapons found in General Qi's book. WHY?
Because at that time (1600s) Shaolin ALSO practiced these same weapons set.
WHY?
General Qi's teacher and his fellow friend instructor ALSO taught these military sets to Shaolin in the 1500s.

In the 20th century, Chen Xin, who wrote about the Chen family martial arts compared the village arts to what he saw similar in General Qi's book.
It was he that made this first comparison, nowhere before him in history does the Chen family records ever mention that their material came from General Qi's book.

Also, nearby to Chen village there is Chang Naizhou's Neijia Quan style, that was developed around the same time and it too comes from Shaolin roots and local weapons styles, and the theory found in the Taiji Quan book (miraculously found in a salt store by "accident") was from Chang Naizhou's own book, copies word for word.

A few books have been published by Marnix Wells and Doug Wylie about all this.

[bawang]

hi mister canzonieri, do u have any chinese peer reviewed research journals about this?

also could you name the original names of the 29 techniques please? thank u. sry for asking a lot of questions but im very interested in finding about martial art history but dont know how



also you saying a ming military officer not knowing basic military drills taught to footsoldiers is confusing for me.

[Sal Canzonieri]

hi mister canzonieri, do u have any peer reviewed research journals about this?

also could you name the original names of the 29 techniques please? thank u. sry for asking a lot of questions but im very interested in finding about martial art history but dont know how

These kinds of articles are in Chinese, since they are in martial arts magazines and books from China. All you have to do is type in the Chinese characters in Google and it finds you tons of articles in Chinese.
One good site in English that sums up new research on Chen TJQ origins is:
http://www.literati-tradition.com/chen_camp.html

General Qi's book is 32 postures from 16 different styles. He says that most of these styles are the same though they have different names. He said that either they are from Song Taizu Chang Quan or they are from Wen Family Boxing (which is now called Chuo Jiao - Fanzi Quan[Ba Shan Fan]).
The postures he shows, which he says they are the most effective moves from these styles, are 32 different drills, not a form, and he explains what each move is good for.
The last few are clearly Wen Family Boxing postures commonly found in Ba Shan Fan and Chuo Jiao sets.

[bawang]

hi thanks for the reply mister canzonieri. i have memorized the entire chapter 14 and the fist poems. i also came to conclusion that its not a form like u.
yes i remember fanziquan friend doing beating the drum, its their opening move


the website you sent me said
"Chen Wangting created the radically new system of taiji quan based on Qi Jiguan’s 戚繼光 (1528-1587) Classic of Pugilism (Tang Hao). "

most of the chinese articles i find on the internet said theres a connection, and i remember reading the magazine wuhun as a kid, and i never saw any mentioning how chenwangting comitted fraud by renaming shaolin mvoes to qijiguang's moves.

[Eugene]

Thx Mr. Canzonieri, for that reply, also interesting to read what you replyed to bawang. :)

[Royal Dragon]

hi thanks for the reply mister canzonieri. i have memorized the entire chapter 14 and the fist poems. i also came to conclusion that its not a form like u.
yes i remember fanziquan friend doing beating the drum, its their opening move


the website you sent me said
"Chen Wangting created the radically new system of taiji quan based on Qi Jiguan’s 戚繼光 (1528-1587) Classic of Pugilism (Tang Hao). "

most of the chinese articles i find on the internet said theres a connection, and i remember reading the magazine wuhun as a kid, and i never saw any mentioning how chenwangting comitted fraud by renaming shaolin mvoes to qijiguang's moves.

Reply]
The proof is clearly in the fact that the Chen form tracks the Shaolin Tai Tzu move for move, in order, and the Qi jiguang is very different. When you look at the moves themselves, the answers become apparent.

There has been considerable research in this area over the last 10 years. MAss communication has made it possble to compare what used to be isolated systms and really see the truth of thier origins.

[Xian]

I found this qoute by accident:

Taizuquan (太祖拳, Great Ancestor Boxing) is often segregated into the Zhao Taizu (referring to Zhao Kuangyin ( 趙匡胤) First Emperor of the Song Dynasty) and Ming Taizu (referring to Zhu Yuanzhang (朱元璋) First Emperor of the Ming Dynasty). Whereas Zhao Taizuquan is often referred to as Chang Quan (太祖长拳, Long Boxing) and Ming Taizuquan is also known as Hong Quan (洪拳).

Source: http://www.satirio.com/ma/taizu/intro.html

Maybe it wasnt mentioned before or maybe someone can prove it or disprove it.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Sal Canzonieri]

I found this qoute by accident:


Source: http://www.satirio.com/ma/taizu/intro.html

Maybe it wasnt mentioned before or maybe someone can prove it or disprove it.


Kind regards,
Xian

Thanks for posting that. Yes, we discussed that a few years back in a few other threads. There was a big long Hong Quan thread.

There have been many articles in Chinese martial art magazines and online about all the different Hong Quan and Taizuquan lineages and branches and styles.
People in the West are just starting to learn about all this, which is good.

Thanks again.

[Cdr.Instigator]

Tagged for further reading from home.. not work!!

[Xian]

Thanks for posting that. Yes, we discussed that a few years back in a few other threads. There was a big long Hong Quan thread.

There have been many articles in Chinese martial art magazines and online about all the different Hong Quan and Taizuquan lineages and branches and styles.
People in the West are just starting to learn about all this, which is good.

Thanks again.

Ah so the Lao Jia Hong Quan for example wasnt mentioned by that ?


Kind regards,
Xian

[bawang]

ive been reading a lot of past military documents and they have changed my perception of chinese martial arts.

there is zero doubt that chinese military is the source of chinese martial arts.

what sal canzonieri posted on the internet has some merit but he is heavily biased towards himself. the only "evidence" he presents are forms.

[Royal Dragon]

I have been doing some thinking lately (Sal already knows this). Almost ALL Tai Tzu sets, no matter where they are from, if they refer to Zhao Kuang Yin look either like Shaolin Lao Hong and Da Hong Quan (the 6 road set) or they look like the Shadong forms that are most commonly seen, or they look like the sets put out on VCd by Li Cheng Xiang.

It is well known that before Zhao Kuang Yin joined the military, he traveled around learning various arts, and tried to make a living as a martial arts performer.

He was famous for doing Hong Quan (flooding fist), Monkey boxing (imitates a Gibbon), the Six Stance Fist, and something called the Glorious Fist. All of these are very similar arts from the area he grew up.

That stuff that looks like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXVwsJfi5gY

It is the stuff he taught to Shaolin before entering the military. He traded this set (or at least the loose techniques) to Shaolin for advanced training in thier softer arts. If you compare it to other arts from the area he grew up, it's all pretty similar.

He was also said to have spent time in GuanXi, and Guandong learning during his travels and there are sets by those names preserved in the Taoist lines. The closest I have been able to view is from the Moslem Six Harmonies style who claim Zhao is one of thier major ancestors.

The Guanxi sets generally look like Cha Fist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs&feature=related

then you have another batch of sets that look like this, which is what I thing the Guan Dongquan is like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkoWAo3yWeo

These are all 3 different over all styles of Long Fist. My current theory is that Zhao learned what he could in the various areas he was in and created sets to remember the techniques of that particular geography.

Each style is represented by one set, each with it's own body of techniques and flavor. Some of it is external, some internal. That is why all Tai Tzu sets with a oral, or written history connected to Zhao Quang Yin look like one of the above forms.


The Shaolin 32 posture form is clearly different than those, because it was created by Shaolin from random input that came from Zhao's generals. It was never actually his personal style.

Well, that is my current theory anyway.

[Tainan Mantis]

- forms was looked down or bannd in most of the ming military, (Formation Treatise: "It is banned among the military, this useless gimmick.")

Hi,
Thanks for posting that. I would like to look it up. Could you tell me the name of Formation Treatise in Chinese. Any tips on where in this book I'll find this quote?

[bawang]

Hi,
Thanks for posting that. I would like to look it up. Could you tell me the name of Formation Treatise in Chinese. Any tips on where in this book I'll find this quote?

http://www.docin.com/p-108341955.html

the specific line is "是以为军中之切忌者，在套子武艺"

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for providing...

[GeneChing]

The Long Fist of the Emperor (by me)
May/June 2013 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1088)

This was part of the prize for the Songshan Shaolin Champion (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1222471#post1222471). The next Songshan Shaolin Champion will be determined at the Tiger Claw Elite Championship (http://www.tigerclawelite.com/) on June 1, 2013 in San Jose, CA.