Style differences: Secret Door-8step?

[Kram1]

What are the major differences? Are both from the same later root (Plum flower??) I am interested in what kind of things are emphasized, de-emphasized. This is definietely NOT a "Which is better?" PLEASE! In fact, if you really want to go for it, What differences exsist between the other major mantis styles.
Please, I beg you, should you chose to answer, no flames, no trolling. Just your serious , informed , analysis! :)

Thanks in advance for your wisdom,

Mark

[18elders]

Kram1, there is a praying mantis school(Pong lai wu ji Praying Mantis) in Tampa.
The Shr-fu is John Scolaro, he lived in Taiwan for 10 years and is a senior student of Master Shr Jeng Jong.
He teaches 7 star, plum flower, secret door and tai chi praying mantis.
I sugjest you visit him and he could show you the differences and answer your questions.
His phone number is 813-997-8845

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am a shrfu of ba bu tang lang(8step praying mantis) though I dont know much about secrect door, I can tell you a little about 8 step, we have the foot work from ba gua to move effeicently with litle energy, we also have shui chiao (chinese wrestling) for throwing and ground fighting and chi na fa (joint locking) the difference with 8 step is that we block, strike, joint lock, throw, joint lock and break. This is different than most styles that stop after the strike or after the throw, our system usually renders the oponent unable to continue after his initial attack.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kram1]

18E: Yes I have spoken w/ Shr-fu John, a real nice guy. and very well versed. Though not about KF comparisons . A good idea, thanks. What are your ideas about the differences between Wa Lum and the secret door that Mr scolaro teaches? I am looking particularly at the way moves are done, high low circular, hard ,soft, etc. Thanks again for your reply.

Earth D: BA Gua footwork? I recall someone on this forum saying PM was mostly monkey, or something like that. Whats the difference? My goal here, besides just soaking up great info, is to find enough knowledge so that I can make an informed decision on my next course of study. Something that would suit the limits of my body. All replies are greatly appreciated

And So It Goes...

[Tainan Mantis]

8-Step:
From Jiang Hwa Long, a Plum Flower Mantis teacher. He and 2 friends, 1 from Tong Bei style, the other from Hsing Yi, pooled their knowledge in order to make Dzai Yao, sections 1 to 6. Also made the unique form called Li Pi.
In Wei Hsiao Tang's book are listed these 7 forms plus Hsiao Fan Che and Da fan Che.
It is said that Wei's students coined the term Babu or 8 step mantis. This may be true as this story comes from Wang Jia one of Wei's earliest students.

Secret Door:
Also from Jiang Hwa Long. The master of Secret Door was Zhang De Kuei. He himself never knew this term Secret Door. It was coined by his student Su Yu Zhang. Zhang himself called his Mantis Gu Tang Lang, which means ancient or traditional. His style is charecterized by short jing. There is an excellent video by Panther of Shr Zheng Zhong doing Lan Jie in the Secret Door style. Master Shr , who has studied with over 30 teachers believes this style to be the closest to Wang Lang's.
It only has 12 forms:
-Lan Jie
-Dzai Yao in 7 sections
-8 Elbows in 4 sections
Although it looks oldest but it doesn't have Wang Lang's original Beng Bu.
Why it looks old?
-When doing hand techniques the head and body shoot forward and back while the feet stomp the ground.
-On certain punches the left hand smashes into the chest, making a loud thump sound.

[EARTH DRAGON]

It was my understading that chiang hua long thought the jumping charateristics of monkey footwork in that of sevenstar used to much energy so chiang hua long realized that as he got older he would have to think of ways to maintain his stamina and strength, so he broke down the footwork and studied movements from other styles finnaly adding the footwork of ba gua zhang more circular and angular movements with less energy to perform them! hence the name ba bu or 8 steps. again this is what I was told of our history from my shr fu but different familys and lineages have different versions.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[drunkendragon]

is the term used to describe "teacher" sifu or shrfu,shifu?i'm confused.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Shrfu is the Mandarin pronunciation.

[Kram1]

Ok, Thanks for the replies so far. I have so far got both Secret door and 8step w/ BaGua style or similar footwork. What is different? How do they attack , defend.

How do they compare to seven star or others. Soon I will be qualified to be called ignorant!


Mark

And So It Goes...

[mantis108]

I am only speak of my own understanding. So Here it goes.

I understand that essentially all PM are pretty much the same with a different emphasis on different things. This is largely due to the material which they have been exposed to.

7*PM has strong influence of Tong Bei (lots of hammer fists choping and big motions), and Eagle Claws (at least one or two Eagle Claws like move in their version of Bung Bo). I have seen one of the 7* article on stances which has clearly a few claw hands rather than the Mantis hands, but then that could be a specific lineage thing. There seems to be some suggestions that there is a form, which is called the Seven Star, in the Tong Bei system that's what the Seven Star line is named after.

Tai Chi Mantis on the other hand has more influences from Tai Tzu Men, Taijiquan (Chan) and the Praying Mantis that can be traced back to the Plum Flower side of the mantis family. Less noticable is the hardness of the moves.

I also believe that 7 Stars lineages mainly use the Changquan teaching format, meaning they are heavily into forms, while most TCPM lineages under GM Chiu Chuk Kai uses a balance teaching method of both Changquan (forms) and Duneda (short strikes). As for myself, I much prefer the short strikes format.

Mantis108

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[Kram1]

Mantis 108, Thanks for your input. That is just the kind of thing I was looking for. You can even be more specific if you would like.

Anyone else??

Mark

And So It Goes...

[mantis108]

Glad you like it . I posted an article about the Dynamics of TCPM awhile ago in one of the threads here. I couldn't locate it now, but if you are interest please do a search in the mantis forum. Hopefully, it's still there somewhere. Thanks

Mantis108

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