View Full Version : Shaolin vs. Muay Thai
GeneChing
12-01-2009, 10:43 AM
They should take up the challenge. They could win if they fight sanda rules. They'll lose if they fight Muay Thai, but then anyone would. :rolleyes:
Thai fighters eye Shaolin (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-12/01/content_9082164.htm)
By Wang Jingqiong (China Daily)
Updated: 2009-12-01 07:59
The Shaolin Temple may have sidestepped a challenge to Chinese kungfu, but another prominent school has stepped in to pick up the gauntlet.
Five famous professional Thai Boxers offered a challenge, claiming that they wanted to "wipe out the Shaolin Temple".
"Shaolin kungfu is a lie by these monks to Chinese Buddhists, and Chinese kungfu is nothing compared with ours," said one of the five Thai boxers who is ready to take on masters from the famous temple.
"If they accept our challenge, we'll win 5 to 0."
But Shaolin responded by saying the provocative words were "ridiculous", refusing to reply to the "secular challenge".
Zheng Shumin from Shaolin Temple said the temple is a holy Buddhist place where monks' primary concern is Zen practice and they would not get into contests with secular people.
"We receive so many challenges like this every year, we just don't want to reply," Zheng said. "We think this is hype from the Thai boxers and the organizers of the competition."
"In the history of Shaolin Temple, we never challenge or agree to fight others," said Zheng.
However, followers of Emei kungfu, another important school of martial arts in China, considers this a challenge that "any kungfu practitioner with a sense of justice should face."
Wang Jian, director of the Emei Martial Arts Association, and his senior disciple Huang Lin, entered the contest "to let the Thai boxers know that Chinese kungfu is never easy to beat."
"I couldn't bear it anymore ... after the public and all my fellow disciples urged me to show them real Chinese kungfu," Wang said.
"This is not only disrespectful to Chinese kungfu, it is also disrespectful to our nation," said Zhang Ji from Emei Martial Arts Association.
"As disciples of kungfu, whether from Shaolin, Emei, Wudang, or anywhere else, we should stand up to such defiance," he said.
The five boxers from Thailand will be in China for the contest on Dec 19 in Foshan, Guangdong province, the hometown of late action star Bruce Lee.
god i hope the kung fu boys mop the floor with mt on that day
Lee Chiang Po
12-01-2009, 11:40 AM
god i hope the kung fu boys mop the floor with mt on that day
Those boys are just talking stuff. They may never be seen or heard from again after this contest. They need to toss away all the rules except that you can't deliberately kill your opponent. Mui Thai is just a funky form of kick boxing where you stand to be injured by yourself as much as by your opponent.
LCP
sanjuro_ronin
12-01-2009, 12:08 PM
"In the history of Shaolin Temple, we never challenge or agree to fight others,"
BBBWAAAHAHAHAHAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, that was funny !!
werent the shaolin monks a bunch of bandits originally lol
Jimbo
12-01-2009, 05:18 PM
I thought that Shaolin Temple had guys there that they refer to as "fighting monks"? On the other hand, I also thought not everyone who trains (trained) there was a monk. They should take up the challenge. Though I'd still bet on the Thais, esp. if they are top professionals.
GeneChing
12-01-2009, 06:39 PM
...But I've witnessed some challenge matches there firsthand. They are a little more underground, at least they used to be. The warrior monks and folk masters of Shaolin are very proud. They don't take kindly to challengers.
It was an odd quote for Zheng Shumin to be caught - sort of a gotcha question. :p Thai fighters frequently come to challenge Chinese fighters. Thai vs. China fights are fairly commonly staged in both countries, using either Muay Thai or Sanda rules. I've met a few of China's national Muay Thai team fighters. This article feels more like a very cagey promotion for this upcoming Dec 19 fight in Foshan. It's already spread to a few other sites on the internet. It's got a great title for viral marketing. ;)
GeneChing
12-02-2009, 10:44 AM
Looks like Bojizhe and I are on the same page. Nice follow up.
Muay Thai claims to wipe out Shaolin Temple, media hype? (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90782/6830326.html)
16:27, December 02, 2009
Five famous professional Thai Boxers offered a challenge, claiming that they wanted to "wipe out the Shaolin Temple" just before the 2009 Chinese Kung Fu vs. Professional Thai Kick-boxing Competition held Dec 19 in Foshan, Guangdong province, the hometown of late action star Bruce Lee.
"Shaolin Kung Fu is a lie by these monks to Chinese Buddhists, and Chinese Kung Fu is nothing compared with ours," said one of the five Thai boxers.
But Shaolin responded by saying the provocative words were "ridiculous", refusing to reply to the "secular challenge".
Zheng Shumin from Shaolin Temple said the temple is a holy Buddhist place where monks' primary concern is Zen practice and they would not get into contests with secular people.
"We receive so many challenges like this every year, we just don't want to reply," Zheng said. "We think this is hype from the Thai boxers and the organizers of the competition."
"In the history of Shaolin Temple, we never challenge or agree to fight others," said Zheng.
Emei director stands up in defiance
However, followers of Emei Kung Fu, another important school of martial arts in China, considered this a challenge that "any Kung Fu practitioner with a sense of justice should face."
Wang Jian, director of the Emei Martial Arts Association, and his senior disciple Huang Lin, entered the contest "to let the Thai boxers know that Chinese Kung Fu is never easy to beat."
"I couldn't bear it anymore ... after the public and all my fellow disciples urged me to show them real Chinese Kung Fu," Wang said.
"This is not only disrespectful to Chinese Kung Fu, it is also disrespectful to our nation," said Zhang Ji from Emei Martial Arts Association.
"As disciples of Kung Fu, whether from Shaolin, Emei, Wudang, or anywhere else, we should stand up to such defiance," he said.
Netizen: it is media hype
When the challenge is hotly discussed on the Internet, a netizen named “Bojizhe” on Tianya Forum, a hot Chinese Forum, said the coverage is not true, just media hype.
The netizen said he tried to verify the report from Thailand but was told that Kaoklai, the King of Muay Thai, never receive any invitation to attend the 2009 Chinese Kung Fu vs. Professional Thai Kick-boxing Competition and never claimed that Muay Thai could wipe out Shaolin Temple.
Pork Chop
12-02-2009, 11:50 AM
Mui Thai is just a funky form of kick boxing where you stand to be injured by yourself as much as by your opponent.
If you ever want some insight to the true depth of Muay Thai technique & strategy, I'm just right down the road. :)
he does have some what of a point though
id rather learn muay thai boran its more complete of a style
t_niehoff
12-02-2009, 01:02 PM
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2009-12/01/content_9082164.htm
The Shaolin Temple may have sidestepped a challenge to Chinese kungfu, but another prominent school has stepped in to pick up the gauntlet.
Five famous professional Thai Boxers offered a challenge, claiming that they wanted to "wipe out the Shaolin Temple".
"Shaolin kungfu is a lie by these monks to Chinese Buddhists, and Chinese kungfu is nothing compared with ours," said one of the five Thai boxers who is ready to take on masters from the famous temple.
"If they accept our challenge, we'll win 5 to 0."
But Shaolin responded by saying the provocative words were "ridiculous", refusing to reply to the "secular challenge".
Zheng Shumin from Shaolin Temple said the temple is a holy Buddhist place where monks' primary concern is Zen practice and they would not get into contests with secular people.
"We receive so many challenges like this every year, we just don't want to reply," Zheng said. "We think this is hype from the Thai boxers and the organizers of the competition."
"In the history of Shaolin Temple, we never challenge or agree to fight others," said Zheng.
However, followers of Emei kungfu, another important school of martial arts in China, considers this a challenge that "any kungfu practitioner with a sense of justice should face."
Wang Jian, director of the Emei Martial Arts Association, and his senior disciple Huang Lin, entered the contest "to let the Thai boxers know that Chinese kungfu is never easy to beat."
"I couldn't bear it anymore ... after the public and all my fellow disciples urged me to show them real Chinese kungfu," Wang said.
"This is not only disrespectful to Chinese kungfu, it is also disrespectful to our nation," said Zhang Ji from Emei Martial Arts Association.
"As disciples of kungfu, whether from Shaolin, Emei, Wudang, or anywhere else, we should stand up to such defiance," he said.
The five boxers from Thailand will be in China for the contest on Dec 19 in Foshan, Guangdong province, the hometown of late action star Bruce Lee.
this has already been posted bubba
lkfmdc
12-02-2009, 01:05 PM
Gene Ching called and said he wanted his thread back (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55803)
:mad:
t_niehoff
12-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Oops, my bad. Been offline for awhile and didn't catch it. :)
David Jamieson
12-02-2009, 01:16 PM
I'm going to the local chapter of the knights of columbus and challenging them!
lol @ the thais for making such a ludicrous approach. They are in a monastery for pete's sake. Go challenge one of the wu guans.
you think they would have learned after what happened with oyamas guys and lui hailong:D
Lucas
12-02-2009, 01:35 PM
the challenged parties should just set the rules as a shuai jiao competition :D
sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2009, 01:37 PM
you think they would have learned after what happened with oyamas guys and lui hailong:D
Most of Oyama's guys got their butt's kicked the frst time around.
the challenged parties should just set the rules as a shuai jiao competition :D
no ethiopian sumo!
"Most of Oyama's guys got their butt's kicked the frst time around.
they did? i have been lied too!
sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2009, 01:48 PM
no ethiopian sumo!
"Most of Oyama's guys got their butt's kicked the frst time around.
they did? i have been lied too!
I am pretty sure, of course there were a few trips to Thailand and they did start winning after that first one, because Oyama adopted the MT training methods, prompting some to call Kyokushin "MT with a Gi".
what were the time periods between the first one and then the other trips?
thats a bit odd to all the sudden adopt some technique or training from people who have been doing it for decades then come back and whip their own ass with it:confused:
sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2009, 01:59 PM
what were the time periods between the first one and then the other trips?
thats a bit odd to all the sudden adopt some technique or training from people who have been doing it for decades then come back and whip their own ass with it:confused:
No one said anything about whipping asses.
Oyama adapted the MT round kick (low and high) with a slight variation and adapted the knees and elbows.
Lucas
12-02-2009, 02:00 PM
if we step and you destroy me with your game, then i shadow it and make it mine and come back and hand you your ass with it, proves who the better fighter is.
also shows a good example of success being partially determined by training methods.
No one said anything about whipping asses.
Oyama adapted the MT round kick (low and high) with a slight variation and adapted the knees and elbows.
bah! thats it!!! those techniques arent exclusive to mt karate has always had the shin kick and elbows and knees
sanjuro_ronin
12-02-2009, 02:17 PM
bah! thats it!!! those techniques arent exclusive to mt karate has always had the shin kick and elbows and knees
Dude, seriously, that's not the point, it was how they were being trained at the time.
Shorty after Kurosawa, Oyama's main man, left the Kyokushin and set up Japanese Kickboxing.
i know thats why i was noting with my other post:rolleyes:
its obvious it would be the traning not a super secret kick they picked up:D
Pork Chop
12-02-2009, 02:59 PM
he does have some what of a point though
id rather learn muay thai boran its more complete of a style
Actually most legit camps have some old bareknuckle techniques still mixed in; for example Sit Yodtong in Thailand is not only one of the top camps for ring muay thai, but their traditional muay thai is spot on as well.
My gym teaches mae mai muay thai chaiya in addition to ring muay thai.
I tend to be a bit wary of folks that teach the traditional/bareknuckle muay thai in isolation anymore.
The muay boran most people think of is really just a performance art any more.
Tony Jaa's movie created a whole generation of folks who want to learn "t3h r3@l l33t d3@dly muay thai", which usually ends up only being those techniques that are d@mn near impossible to pull off.
Traditional techniques pay more in muay thai ring fights, so if they were that effective you'd think these starving fighters (who get paid less than boxing or mma fighters get out of bed for) would be pulling these techniques off all the time.
Making bad generalizations about muay thai just coz you read it in a magazine or online somewhere is just as bad as making bad generalizations about kung fu. In this case it's even worse than a lot of the "anti-kung fu bias" you complain about on these boards, because it's done with absolutely no first-hand experience.
You also get knucklheads like this chuckled!ck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lFVebgsh3A) who makes up some phony bs to discredit "ring muay thai" and then shows a standard muay thai leg kick as some secret "muay boran" technique.
Go with real muay thai from Thailand and you'll have access to as much of the real traditional stuff as you can learn. Go with t3h s3cr3t d3@dly and you're probably going to be taken for a ride. I will say Col Amnat's stuff is pretty good though.
Pork Chop
12-02-2009, 03:23 PM
Dude, seriously, that's not the point, it was how they were being trained at the time.
Shorty after Kurosawa, Oyama's main man, left the Kyokushin and set up Japanese Kickboxing.
On a side note, Fujiwara (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoBiueeRpiI) deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.
The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn't fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s...
The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn't spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.
Actually most legit camps have some old bareknuckle techniques still mixed in; for example Sit Yodtong in Thailand is not only one of the top camps for ring muay thai, but their traditional muay thai is spot on as well.
My gym teaches mae mai muay thai chaiya in addition to ring muay thai.
I tend to be a bit wary of folks that teach the traditional/bareknuckle muay thai in isolation anymore.
The muay boran most people think of is really just a performance art any more.
Tony Jaa's movie created a whole generation of folks who want to learn "t3h r3@l l33t d3@dly muay thai", which usually ends up only being those techniques that are d@mn near impossible to pull off.
Traditional techniques pay more in muay thai ring fights, so if they were that effective you'd think these starving fighters (who get paid less than boxing or mma fighters get out of bed for) would be pulling these techniques off all the time.
Making bad generalizations about muay thai just coz you read it in a magazine or online somewhere is just as bad as making bad generalizations about kung fu. In this case it's even worse than a lot of the "anti-kung fu bias" you complain about on these boards, because it's done with absolutely no first-hand experience.
You also get knucklheads like this chuckled!ck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lFVebgsh3A) who makes up some phony bs to discredit "ring muay thai" and then shows a standard muay thai leg kick as some secret "muay boran" technique.
Go with real muay thai from Thailand and you'll have access to as much of the real traditional stuff as you can learn. Go with t3h s3cr3t d3@dly and you're probably going to be taken for a ride. I will say Col Amnat's stuff is pretty good though.
oh i know in thailand its suppsoed to be rare to even find a muay thai boran teacher to begin with:D
a lot of the thai coaches sucker in yokels into thinking they are teaching them ancient thai boxing when they are just teaching them basic sport mt lol
Pork Chop
12-02-2009, 03:44 PM
oh i know in thailand its suppsoed to be rare to even find a muay thai boran teacher to begin with:D
a lot of the thai coaches sucker in yokels into thinking they are teaching them ancient thai boxing when they are just teaching them basic sport mt lol
usually it's not anything near as useful as basic sport mt... with the possible exception of the cheesed!ck who's vid i posted...
Jimbo
12-02-2009, 06:34 PM
On a side note, Fujiwara (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoBiueeRpiI) deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.
The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn't fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s...
The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn't spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.
Good points.
Though I often got the feeling that the sense of superiority over Muay Thai in the past among some kung fu stylists (at least overseas) was more often a nationalistic thing, more than it was MT's fewer stances, less if any form work, etc. Although, I do remember years ago reading a Hong Kong kung fu magazine from about the mid-1970s, after the Thais decimated a team from HK. There were some 'reaction articles' featuring some well-known masters who talked about techniques that 'should' beat MT and their 'too few techniques'. Kind of a coulda-shoulda-woulda reaction.
Iron_Eagle_76
12-03-2009, 06:15 AM
I find it humoring when Muay Thai is "put down" or techniques or "too simple". The fact of the matter is Muay Thai produces better fighters than most traditional Kung Fu due to training methods.
Many Kung Fu styles have the same techniques found in Muay Thai, but they are not trained correctly. For example, throwing a flippy roundhouse in the air with a gay pose thown in is, suprisingly enough:rolleyes:, not as effective as kicking Thai mitts or a heavybag. This is just one example but the point can be seen. Hell, how many times have we all heard people say Sanda is just Muay Thai with throws, and how far from the truth is that, really?
sanjuro_ronin
12-03-2009, 06:57 AM
On a side note, Fujiwara (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoBiueeRpiI) deserves some mention. He was not really a kyokushin guy, though he had a shodan in sh!to ryu and trained under Kurosaki, who was in that first group of kyokushin guys who lost and also created Mejiro gym (and thus gave birth to Dutch Muay Thai). Kurosaki trained muay thai in thailand and gained an intimate knowledge of the style.
The funny thing to me about the superiority complex kung fu guys have regarding muay thai (especially ring muay thai) is that kung fu didn't fare well against muay thai even back in the day, check out those fights from the 20s...
The few guys who can hang with muay thai fighters in the ring, train like ring fighters - with round timers, bags, pads, gloves, and sparring; not with a lot of forms and fancy postures. The techniques that they succeed with tend to be simple strikes & throws, not overly-intricate techniques, crazy stances, or fancy animal shapes. If a guy comes along just doing forms & stances, fights with them, and succeeds; more power to him. but this sense of superiority because muay thai doesn't spend a lot of time with those low percentage training methodologies is friggin ridiculous.
Agreed, many good things came out of their initial defeats.
Pork Chop
12-03-2009, 10:23 AM
Hell, how many times have we all heard people say Sanda is just Muay Thai with throws, and how far from the truth is that, really?
I've always maintained that Sanda is a separate style; don't get me wrong, it's just that there are certain truths to the training of almost any sport fighter.
Boxing, mma, american kickboxing, sanda, and muay thai all train in gyms with bags, pads, sparring, and rounds; but the techniques & strategies for each are unique.
Yes, in many ways a round kick is just a round kick, but akb, muay thai, and sanda all have peculiarities for when, where, why, and how they throw it. Then again, even sanda programs from China tend to have slightly different technique than most of the programs in the States (especially when it comes to hands). And on top of that, each gym has it's own specific methods.
While I had heard that sanshou programs in China were known to bring in Thai coaches to help them improve; the sanshou methodology, strategy, and techniques are unique.
In other words, sometimes there are enough differences to be something more than just a gym preference.
Looking at those Chinese Sanshou training vids available from the store, (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-bj006.html) there's sooo much from the basic training principles that's just "wrong" by "universal" muay thai standards that it's different at a fundamental level. Same goes for the punching in the video, at a certain fundamental level it's just different than western boxing. It is its own thing.
Going back to "traditional" styles; as long as the training includes the "truths" of training like a fighter, I don't think anybody is disputing the validity of the training. It just hasn't really been demonstrated on a large scale yet that forms and posture training alone can get you there - or can even make you a superior fighter just by having them in your program. That is to say, they are just another exercise and their absence or inclusion shouldn't affect the style's validity.
Lucas
12-03-2009, 07:46 PM
im looking forward to seeing this all go down though, i hope it does.
imo as long as there is a fair judge and both sides bring their A players, and the rules are decided on work for everyone it will be roughly even. one side will have 3 wins or it will be 2 win 2 loss 1 draw and tie it.
GeneChing
12-11-2009, 10:32 AM
But this is an interesting tangent for sure, as long as it doesn't go back to the ol' Shaolin monk in MMA rant. :rolleyes:
Sat, 12 Dec 2009
When muay Thai meets kung fu (http://www.thesundaily.com/article.cfm?id=41245)
Foshan in southern China’s Guangdong province – the birthplace of the late martial arts legend Bruce Lee – is gearing up for a battle royale on Dec 19 between the forces of muay Thai kick-boxing and kung fu.
The fuss all began when the Thai athletes declared they wanted to come to China to "wipe out’’ the historic Shaolin Temple – considered one of the birthplaces of kung fu.
But the Shaolin monks refused to rise to that bait. "In the history of the Shaolin Temple, we never challenge or agree to fight others,’’ Zheng Shumin, a representative of the temple, told the Chinese press.
Enter the Emei Martial Arts Association, followers of another style of kung fu and based in Sichuan province, who are now vowing to show these Thai interlopers the "real Chinese kung fu".
"We should stand up to such defiance,’’ said Zhang Ji, a representative of the association.
Meanwhile, Hongkong, the city that Lee called home, is gearing up for the debut of the Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) movement that, in recent years, has gained incredible worldwide popularity.
"Mixed martial arts is the fastest-growing sport in the world and as Bruce Lee is considered by many to be the father of the sport, it only makes sense that Hongkong have an MMA tournament with some of the best competition the region has to offer," event organiser Chris Pollak said in a press release.
The inaugural "Legend’’ competition will be held in Hongkong on Jan 11 (www.legendfc.com) and will feature 18 of the world’s top MMA fighters, including China’s two-time national sanda champion Zhao Zilong.
MMA pits fighters from martial arts styles such as sanda (China), judo (Japan), muay Thai (Thailand) and taekwondo (Korea) against each other in a format that could end in knockout, submission, technical knockout or referee decision.
MMA has now surpassed wrestling in the United States in terms of popularity. – AFP-Relaxnews
The fact of the matter is Muay Thai produces better fighters than most traditional Kung Fu due to training methods.
Is true
I hope there going to be a video that 19 December. I want to se the face of the Shaolin when he lose, because he sure going to lose. These Shaolin don't train the real Kung Fu of old times, they just train modern wushu, only forms and forms etc hahahahah:D these Shaolin going to learn a good lesson from the Tai Boxing guys, these Tai guys have legs like stones, they can move like leopards!!
oo ooo i must see this much hahahahah :D
elavenil
12-19-2009, 09:24 AM
today is 19 , does this match happen any update?
here: http://video.sina.com.cn/sports/o/v/2009-12-20/003237070.shtml
i didnt even see what really knocked him out in this first match...
oh, and it says he is a shaolin disciple now.. after the fact, i guess.
looks like they were playing by sanda rules anyhow.
Xiao3 Meng4
12-19-2009, 03:31 PM
Spinning left backfist to the temple followed by what looks like a right palm strike or inner forearm to the back of the head. He may also have delivered a left punch as he was dragging/following the guy down.
i cant see the clip how did the kung fu boys do:D
Xiao3 Meng4
12-19-2009, 03:59 PM
I can't read chinese, it says something like "Kung Fu goes nuclear on Muay Thai Champions"
They did well, the first match was won by the Chinese fighter as described above. Haven't watched the others yet, gotta go.
AHAHAHAHAHA all the mt nut riders are crying n their pillows now
Pork Chop
12-19-2009, 05:32 PM
AHAHAHAHAHA all the mt nut riders are crying n their pillows now
no, not really
palming the back of someone's head is an illegal technique in most fightsports
either way, the winner wasn't fighting out of horse stance or using techniques out of hong quan, it was just another sport fighter
solid win for sanda but for shaolin, not so much
EDIT: The fight after that one is Kaoklai in black shorts. WOW! Bad decision! These matches don't really have much credibility after that... Kaoklai d@mn near pitched a shut out, out-threw the Chinese fighter and lost? What a joke of an event. Guess it's gotta be embarrassing to get totally destroyed in the one thing you're known for being good at (throws).
Third fight, dude in white & red flame shorts (EDIT2: This is naruepol fairtex, good fighter, chinese definitely won first round, after that not so sure). Watchin the highlights at the end of the round, you'd think he'd gotten his azz beat....o wait, it's the same exact scene from 4 different angles looped over and over, the only time the chinese fighter did anything in the whole round.
site keeps going down for the other fights...
wanna see the one the thais won, musta beat that guy nearly comatose if the other fights are any indication....
"oh, the chinese fighter is tired? have the ref call a 20second break",
"oh, the chinese fighter is injured? have the ref stand in front of the thia",
"oh, the thai fighter is being pushed through the ropes? let's let the chinese fighter throw a few more shots for good measure"
"oh, the round is over? let's let the chinese fighter keep swinging"
"oh, the chinese fighter didn't do anything but miss flicky shots & get his azz beat? let's give him the decision anyway"
what a joke
well of course no one fought out of a horse stance those are used to train in forms not to fight lol:D
Pork Chop
12-19-2009, 06:32 PM
well of course no one fought out of a horse stance those are used to train in forms not to fight lol:D
okay did anybody use any of their forms?
no
they threw standard san shou techniques
san shou != shaolin
my background is in san shou and i still do it
this was advertised as "shaolin" but "shaolin" seems to have sent san shou in it's steed; in which case I have absolutely no reason to "cry into my pillow".
Still some really phony bs going on in these fights though; at least the 3 I saw.
I trust the events held in Thailand much more.
In Thailand, it's not about national interests (as in the case for China), it's all betting interests, which has the odd side effect of evening things out & preventing such favoritism.
you cant use a form to fight someone bubba LOL
well ill have to watch them myself there were alot of people saying the lui hailong matches with the thai fighters were set up so the thais had some of there tools taken away from them but i sure as hell didnt see what they were talking about:D
Pork Chop
12-19-2009, 07:55 PM
so then you're saying shaolin people who only do forms and gungs can't fight? ;)
and yeah, padding up the elbow takes a lot off of it, plus if u watch, the ref only breaks the clinch early if the Thai has the dominant position.
so then you're saying shaolin people who only do forms and gungs can't fight? ;)
and yeah, padding up the elbow takes a lot off of it, plus if u watch, the ref only breaks the clinch early if the Thai has the dominant position.
ive never seen or met a person who only did forms
if there are any out there i feel sorry for them
thats bollocks thats like saying padding up the fist takes alot out of it you cans till knock someone down or out with a padded elbow
Pork Chop
12-19-2009, 08:16 PM
ive never seen or met a person who only did forms
if there are any out there i feel sorry for them
Those guys who fought trained very similar to the Thais, with heavybags, sparring, noncompliant clinch work, and drills. The only differences were in technique and more emphasis on takedown work.
They did not train compliant partner training, forms, gungs, and iron palm work.
They did not hold static postures, they did not wake up every morning to do qigong work, nobody pulled off any intricate application from a form, and they did not even work bridging.
They were san shou guys and I'm intimately familiar with san shou training.
You're being real cute with semantics, but i promise you that they do not train what anybody would think of as "shaolin".
thats bollocks thats like saying padding up the fist takes alot out of it you cans till knock someone down or out with a padded elbow
different situation than fists
you're not as likely to crack a bone throwing a bare elbow as you are with fists
the range on it's much shorter too
and yes, some guys will try to end fights on cuts from elbows
of course, i'm always available for demonstration - you can let me know what feels worse, my padded elbow cracking your skull, or my bare one...
Xiao3 Meng4
12-19-2009, 08:27 PM
you can let me know what feels worse, my padded elbow cracking your skull, or my bare one...
Done correctly, you'd probably have to wait for him to wake up both times... might be a moot point, might not.
Those guys who fought trained very similar to the Thais, with heavybags, sparring, noncompliant clinch work, and drills. The only differences were in technique and more emphasis on takedown work.
They did not train compliant partner training, forms, gungs, and iron palm work.
They did not hold static postures, they did not wake up every morning to do qigong work, nobody pulled off any intricate application from a form, and they did not even work bridging.
They were san shou guys and I'm intimately familiar with san shou training.
You're being real cute with semantics, but i promise you that they do not train what anybody would think of as "shaolin".
well first off are you certain that they do not train any of this?
different situation than fists
you're not as likely to crack a bone throwing a bare elbow as you are with fists
the range on it's much shorter too
and yes, some guys will try to end fights on cuts from elbows
of course, i'm always available for demonstration - you can let me know what feels worse, my padded elbow cracking your skull, or my bare one...
actually ALOT of guys throw elbows soley for the purpose of cutting someone open so i can see why its padded after all its a pretty pathetic way to win a fight:D
Ti'm always available for demonstration - you can let me know what feels worse, my padded elbow cracking your skull, or my bare one...
lol easy there killer
wait.. i dont think anyone was saying these guys were from shaolin. didnt shaolin turn down the challenge?
there's just the one guy that they say is a shaolin disciple, but apparently no one ever said he was until after this fight.
doesnt matter though, since they were sanda fighters, not traditionalists in any way.
wait.. i dont think anyone was saying these guys were from shaolin. didnt shaolin turn down the challenge?
there's just the one guy that they say is a shaolin disciple, but apparently no one ever said he was until after this fight.
doesnt matter though, since they were sanda fighters, not traditionalists in any way.
exactly i thought another kung fu organization took up the challenge
Pork Chop
12-19-2009, 10:52 PM
well first off are you certain that they do not train any of this?
yes, i've got quite a lot of mainland chinese training footage
some's even available through martialartsmart.com
yes, i've got quite a lot of mainland chinese training footage
some's even available through martialartsmart.com
yes and thats just a bit of theirtraining who knows what they do:rolleyes:
Pork Chop
12-19-2009, 11:20 PM
yes and thats just a bit of theirtraining who knows what they do:rolleyes:
never been to a fight camp, have yah?
never been to a fight camp, have yah?
actually i just doubt you know enough about these gentlemen to make the statements you have including your knowledge of all of what they ve studied
watching a few clips doesnt do much:D
Pork Chop
12-20-2009, 09:42 AM
actually i just doubt you know enough about these gentlemen to make the statements you have including your knowledge of all of what they ve studied
watching a few clips doesnt do much:D
i'm not talking a few clips, i'm talking first hand video
my main san shou coach fought san shou in China on tv
i also used to train with SanHeChuan's coach, who's from Taiwan and fought in China on tv
both of them have trained over there for varying lengths of time.
but hey, if you think they spent any significant amount of their time doing qigong, forms, compliant partner drills, stance training, bridging, iron palm, or other gungs, don't stop drinking that koolaid. :)
Pork Chop
12-20-2009, 11:37 AM
got direct links:
Kaoklai:
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p0.html
Kaew:
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p1.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p2.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p3.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p4.html
Big ben:
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p5.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p6.html
Naruepol :
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p7.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p8.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p9.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p10.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p11.html
Lamsongkram :
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p12.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p13.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p14.html
i'm not talking a few clips, i'm talking first hand video
my main san shou coach fought san shou in China on tv
i also used to train with SanHeChuan's coach, who's from Taiwan and fought in China on tv
both of them have trained over there for varying lengths of time.
but hey, if you think they spent any significant amount of their time doing qigong, forms, compliant partner drills, stance training, bridging, iron palm, or other gungs, don't stop drinking that koolaid. :)
yes again im not denying they trained san shou or particularly care if you did san shou or not but you still dont know the extent of the fighters training:D
i twas a kickboxing match of course theya re going to train kickboxing for it
thats a big duh
Pork Chop
12-20-2009, 04:39 PM
yes again im not denying they trained san shou or particularly care if you did san shou or not but you still dont know the extent of the fighters training:D
i guess if that .00001% of doubt validates your training, then go for it.
i guess if that .00001% of doubt validates your training, then go for it.
uh yeah whatever you say...........:rolleyes:
GeneChing
12-21-2009, 10:34 AM
...it's a bit sensationalist, but elicited some good discussion here...
Kung Fu vs Muay Thai (http://www.mysinchew.com/node/33016?tid=14)
2009-12-21 14:22
Is Chinese Kung Fu or Muay Thai better?
Chinese Kung Fu supporters will say Kung Fu is profound and invincible; while Muay Thai supporters will say Muay Thai is fast, ruthless and unbeatable.
Which is the strongest then? It is meaningless to boast. It is best to put them on a ring.
And this time, five Muay Thai boxers is going to challenge Chinese Kung Fu.
The contest will be held in Foshan, Guangdong.
xxx
BN and Pakatan Rakyat have long been confronting with each other, digging out one another's weaknesses.
BN said that Pakatan Rakyat's component parties are having their own axes to grind and they are lack of political experience.
Pakatan Rakyat said that there are political deviations in BN's rule. BN is having poor performance and it is unable to unite the people and improve the economy.
They have pointed out the vital points but failed to highlight their own capabilities.
Finally, BN introduced 110 National Key Results Areas (NKRAs) and 240 Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) to promote the government's transformation.
To show its sincerity, it showed the public the agendas and plans, inviting the people to give feedback.
Pakatan Rakyat also launched its “Dasar Pakatan Rakyat”, presenting the three parties' common agenda to show that Pakatan Rakyat is having a consistent central idea and a governing idea of compatibility.
In addition, it also showed that Pakatan Rakyat is ready to move towards Putrajaya and become the federal government.
xxx
For martial arts fans, it is worth looking forward to the contest between Chinese Kung Fu and Muay Thai.
Chinese Kung Fu must get rid of the impression of fancied postures and Jackie Chan's gags.
Meanwhile, Muay Thai must also get rid of its rashness.
Both of them have to show their true capabilities to prove their actual strength and values.
More importantly, only with genuine contact, there would be contrast and they can find their own shortcomings to improve their capabilities.
xxx
Malaysian people want BN and Pakatan Rakyat to show their true strength so that the public can choose between them.
BN's strength lies in its governing experience and administrative resources.
From NKRAs and KPIs, BN tries to understand the people's dissatisfaction with the government, as well as the serious problems faced by the country. They identify the deficiencies and try to overcome or improve it.
Pakatan Rakyat's strength lies in its political ideas and the public's expectations on it.
Pakatan Rakyat's platform lists moral power such as political equity, social justice and economic equality.
xxx
Chinese Kung Fu can learn the speed and accuracy of Muay Thai; while Muay Thai can learn the flexibility and energy of Chinese Kung Fu.
BN can learn the valuable ideas of Pakatan Rakyat; while Pakatan Rakyat can learn the ruling experience of BN.
Finally, both the parties may contest on a fair platform and let the people to make the final decision. (By TAY TIAN YAN/Translated by SOONG PHUI JEE/Sin Chew Daily)
well of course no one fought out of a horse stance those are used to train in forms not to fight lol:D
of course some Shaolin Master can use the horse stance to fight!! Were do you read that it can not be used?
PS. about the video i dont think that is the shaolin they use to train everyday in the temple:mad:
that is only sanda and sanda is like thai boxing, i guess they had take these sanda moves from the thai land!!
Lucas
12-21-2009, 04:19 PM
there is that article in the newest issue of this mag about that chinese san shou champion, 30 years in san shou. he talks about doing all that stuff, static postures, qi gongs, forms, all of it.
read it up, its a great article.
of course he trained full time 7 days a week for many years....so, i guess you need side projects, why not make them things that also give an edge to a martial artist.
doing forms beats watching tv any day of the week.
dont believe me? ask a fat american.
GeneChing
12-21-2009, 04:30 PM
That's in 30 Years of Sanshou: A Conversation with Chinese National Champion Zhou Lizhong By Emilio Alpanseque in our 2010 January/February issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=862), on the newsstands now, just in case you're wondering. ;)
Lucas
12-21-2009, 04:36 PM
;) :p
i sure as heck wouldnt want to fight that guy...
Frost
12-22-2009, 02:49 AM
ive never seen or met a person who only did forms
if there are any out there i feel sorry for them
thats bollocks thats like saying padding up the fist takes alot out of it you cans till knock someone down or out with a padded elbow
total bull padding the fist helps as the bones of the hand are small and can break easily so you can hit harder with pads on, elbows in Thai are used to cut as well as knock out and padding takes away the cut and hitting with the hard bone that is the jarring shot
on a side note is anyone really surprised that chinese officals were cheating in china based competition?
Frost
12-22-2009, 02:51 AM
i guess if that .00001% of doubt validates your training, then go for it.
their is nothing like areguing a stupid point is there
Goju Good god can’t you just admit you got owned by pork chop…..you argued for pages he had no idea about how sanda guys actually train in china, and then he produced video proof of how they trained and how his coaches both from the east and pro fighters trained, just admit you are wrong
Dragonzbane76
12-22-2009, 05:55 AM
god forbid someone is ever wrong on the interwebs...
Iron_Eagle_76
12-22-2009, 06:23 AM
So let me get this straight. The chinese guy wins (the first fight) fighting under Sanda rules, but of course the tradionalists say he is Shaolin. No horse stance, no bridging, decent spinning backfist, but what I saw was simply Sanda vs. Muay Thai. What is it with the whole deception about shi**tty styles putting up Sanda fighters and than claiming them as their own. I understand the concept, it is to legitimize their style as producing good fighters. But Sanda, even though any chinese style using freestyle or full contact can be associated with it, has become more of it's own style and does not need Shaolin or any other sheep herding art to make it legitimate. More BS propaganda.:rolleyes:
Pork Chop
12-22-2009, 09:35 AM
there is that article in the newest issue of this mag about that chinese san shou champion, 30 years in san shou. he talks about doing all that stuff, static postures, qi gongs, forms, all of it.
read it up, its a great article.
of course he trained full time 7 days a week for many years....so, i guess you need side projects, why not make them things that also give an edge to a martial artist.
doing forms beats watching tv any day of the week.
dont believe me? ask a fat american.
i've done a healthy amount of that stuff as well
and i go back to it on occasion when i'm burnt out on more pure fighting stuff
but on the same token, that's the first stuff to disappear when i'm training for a fight
(the stances & forms more than the pure breathing exercises)
EDIT: There IS a sanshou "form" that my one of my coaches has taught me, but it's more of a really long combo that's used for grading/ranking purposes.
Lucas
12-22-2009, 10:10 AM
EDIT: There IS a sanshou "form" that my one of my coaches has taught me, but it's more of a really long combo that's used for grading/ranking purposes.
that seems to be kind of the norm, usually a form developed by the coach themselves. although from what ive seen its not what most people picture as a form.
total bull padding the fist helps as the bones of the hand are small and can break easily so you can hit harder with pads on, elbows in Thai are used to cut as well as knock out and padding takes away the cut and hitting with the hard bone that is the jarring shot
on a side note is anyone really surprised that chinese officals were cheating in china based competition?
you can still knock someone senseless with a padded elbow
you cant cut them true but thats a good thing
their is nothing like areguing a stupid point is there
Goju Good god can’t you just admit you got owned by pork chop…..you argued for pages he had no idea about how sanda guys actually train in china, and then he produced video proof of how they trained and how his coaches both from the east and pro fighters trained, just admit you are wrong
lol my god are you guys even capapble of following a simple convo?
let me spell it out in large words so you can understand
I "DID NOT" SAY THEY WERENT SAN SHOU FIGHTERS
I "DID NOT" SAY THEY DIDNT USE SAN SHOU FOR THE FIGHT OR TRAINED IN SAN SHOU
i said pork chop didnt know the extent of everything those guys have learned
how either one of you get this mixed up is beyond me lol
good lord both you guys are so eager to u pull your e ***** out and wave it around your not even following whats going on here:D
shaolinchuan
12-23-2009, 01:32 AM
Would like to chime in here since I think that there's a misunderstanding of the correlation between Chinese traditional kung fu and san da. One is the fundamentals to make your skills well-rounded and the ability to defend yourself effectively; the latter is to adapt these fundamentals to fighting against modern day competition.
The reality in China is that many schools which teach san da also teach traditional forms as fundamentals. These fundamentals are essential to making san da an effective fighting approach. In fact, the Chinese fighter that KO'd the Thai boxer is from Tagou school next to Shaolin, and was trained in both traditional forms and san da. The founder of the school was a master of Shaolin kung fu famous for Qixing chuan and Changhuxinyimen, with a family lineage that goes back to the Shaolin Temple. Have trained there myself and have seen their training regiment and my current teacher grew up there.
The analogy I would like to give is similar to college and career. Most of us don't apply our college education directly into the workplace. The point of the curriculum is to sharpen your mind, strengthen analytical and interpersonal skills, expand your horizons, etc. There are always bits and pieces of what you learned in math or science for example, that can get applied to your career. With each promotion or change of career path, you use different things you've learned previously.
Having trained for many years with various teachers in the US including "traditionalists" and Shi Guo Lin, as well as having studied San Da and Shaolin kung fu in Beijing, I can say without a doubt that there's a strong correlation between traditional kung fu and san da.
How you apply your techniques is up to your interpretation in today's reality. To be so literal in using the exact techniques from your forms, you're really not thinking the same way as the original masters that created the form. No one fights in a straight line using their forms right? By having a good teacher, you build speed, power, agility, accuracy, through the broad understanding and applications from your forms. The dynamic power from punching and kicking in traditional Chinese kung fu is very different than karate or other arts. Mastering it can be done much more easily through practicing the forms (with the right teacher).
As another example, there are couple of grappling techniques in Tong Bei Chuan which has a number of interpretations. Key is interpreting how to use it in the specific fighting circumstances that you are faced with. The creater of forms would never have been able to dream up techniques that can be applied literally against every fighter or fighting system. All up to the teacher and the current circumstances.
Kung fu has evolved through many thousands of years and while forms don't necessarily need to keep changing, the way it is applied in fighting has to. It's just common sense. Fighters today posess different skillsets than they did hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Sanda fighters are very successful because they have traditional kung fu foundations and have adapted effective fighting approaches to go up against other formidable martial arts. Nothing wrong with this. Have yet to see a person use traditional fighting techniques in literal form to defeat the best trained fighters in the world. Anyone whom thinks that this just applies to Chinese traditional martial arts is naive. No different than karate, tae kwon do, etc.
Hardwork108
12-23-2009, 02:06 AM
Would like to chime in here since I think that there's a misunderstanding of the correlation between Chinese traditional kung fu and san da. One is the fundamentals to make your skills well-rounded and the ability to defend yourself effectively; the latter is to adapt these fundamentals to fighting against modern day competition.
The reality in China is that many schools which teach san da also teach traditional forms as fundamentals. These fundamentals are essential to making san da an effective fighting approach. In fact, the Chinese fighter that KO'd the Thai boxer is from Tagou school next to Shaolin, and was trained in both traditional forms and san da. The founder of the school was a master of Shaolin kung fu famous for Qixing chuan and Changhuxinyimen, with a family lineage that goes back to the Shaolin Temple. Have trained there myself and have seen their training regiment and my current teacher grew up there.
The analogy I would like to give is similar to college and career. Most of us don't apply our college education directly into the workplace. The point of the curriculum is to sharpen your mind, strengthen analytical and interpersonal skills, expand your horizons, etc. There are always bits and pieces of what you learned in math or science for example, that can get applied to your career. With each promotion or change of career path, you use different things you've learned previously.
Having trained for many years with various teachers in the US including "traditionalists" and Shi Guo Lin, as well as having studied San Da and Shaolin kung fu in Beijing, I can say without a doubt that there's a strong correlation between traditional kung fu and san da.
How you apply your techniques is up to your interpretation in today's reality. To be so literal in using the exact techniques from your forms, you're really not thinking the same way as the original masters that created the form. No one fights in a straight line using their forms right? By having a good teacher, you build speed, power, agility, accuracy, through the broad understanding and applications from your forms. The dynamic power from punching and kicking in traditional Chinese kung fu is very different than karate or other arts. Mastering it can be done much more easily through practicing the forms (with the right teacher).
As another example, there are couple of grappling techniques in Tong Bei Chuan which has a number of interpretations. Key is interpreting how to use it in the specific fighting circumstances that you are faced with. The creater of forms would never have been able to dream up techniques that can be applied literally against every fighter or fighting system. All up to the teacher and the current circumstances.
Kung fu has evolved through many thousands of years and while forms don't necessarily need to keep changing, the way it is applied in fighting has to. It's just common sense. Fighters today posess different skillsets than they did hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Sanda fighters are very successful because they have traditional kung fu foundations and have adapted effective fighting approaches to go up against other formidable martial arts. Nothing wrong with this. Have yet to see a person use traditional fighting techniques in literal form to defeat the best trained fighters in the world. Anyone whom thinks that this just applies to Chinese traditional martial arts is naive. No different than karate, tae kwon do, etc.
Great post and thank you.:)
It is good to have people like you posting. Too many people here have bought into "the lets get rid of forms; lets get rid of the internals and lets just spar and lift weights and we will be more effective and "functional" than traditional kung fu".
There are people here who actually advertise the above methodology while selling what amounts to their Glorified Kickboxing schools. On top of that, they still dare to call what they teach kung fu or even "improved" or more "functional" kung fu.
Thanks again and more posts please.:)
HW108
B.Tunks
12-23-2009, 03:10 AM
EDIT: The fight after that one is Kaoklai in black shorts. WOW! Bad decision! These matches don't really have much credibility after that... Kaoklai d@mn near pitched a shut out, out-threw the Chinese fighter and lost? What a joke of an event. Guess it's gotta be embarrassing to get totally destroyed in the one thing you're known for being good at (throws).
"oh, the chinese fighter is tired? have the ref call a 20second break",
"oh, the chinese fighter is injured? have the ref stand in front of the thia",
"oh, the thai fighter is being pushed through the ropes? let's let the chinese fighter throw a few more shots for good measure"
"oh, the round is over? let's let the chinese fighter keep swinging"
"oh, the chinese fighter didn't do anything but miss flicky shots & get his azz beat? let's give him the decision anyway"
what a joke
Having fought in PRC I agree with your observations on how the Chinese fighters are assisted/given advantage during matches. Also that you pretty much have to almost kill them to be declared winner (and even sometimes then a K.O'd fighter will be given the decision).
Re your asessment of the Bian Maofu vs Kaoklai fight: I thought Kaoklai was lazy as hell and I would have scored BMF clearly in front for the first 3 rounds. I thought BMF out struck him the entire fight actually. BMF is not generally known for his throwing either. Unfortunately for Kaoklai, particularly after his last 2 rounds, throws are scored lower in these combined rules matches than in sanda (at the instigation of the Thais). Still, it's China so he should have gone the K.O to be sure. BMF has a chin though...
BT
Dragonzbane76
12-23-2009, 05:30 AM
Great post and thank you.
It is good to have people like you posting. Too many people here have bought into "the lets get rid of forms; lets get rid of the internals and lets just spar and lift weights and we will be more effective and "functional" than traditional kung fu".
There are people here who actually advertise the above methodology while selling what amounts to their Glorified Kickboxing schools. On top of that, they still dare to call what they teach kung fu or even "improved" or more "functional" kung fu.
Thanks again and more posts please.
yes it was a good conversation until you chimed in.
sanjuro_ronin
12-23-2009, 07:07 AM
Would like to chime in here since I think that there's a misunderstanding of the correlation between Chinese traditional kung fu and san da. One is the fundamentals to make your skills well-rounded and the ability to defend yourself effectively; the latter is to adapt these fundamentals to fighting against modern day competition.
The reality in China is that many schools which teach san da also teach traditional forms as fundamentals. These fundamentals are essential to making san da an effective fighting approach. In fact, the Chinese fighter that KO'd the Thai boxer is from Tagou school next to Shaolin, and was trained in both traditional forms and san da. The founder of the school was a master of Shaolin kung fu famous for Qixing chuan and Changhuxinyimen, with a family lineage that goes back to the Shaolin Temple. Have trained there myself and have seen their training regiment and my current teacher grew up there.
The analogy I would like to give is similar to college and career. Most of us don't apply our college education directly into the workplace. The point of the curriculum is to sharpen your mind, strengthen analytical and interpersonal skills, expand your horizons, etc. There are always bits and pieces of what you learned in math or science for example, that can get applied to your career. With each promotion or change of career path, you use different things you've learned previously.
Having trained for many years with various teachers in the US including "traditionalists" and Shi Guo Lin, as well as having studied San Da and Shaolin kung fu in Beijing, I can say without a doubt that there's a strong correlation between traditional kung fu and san da.
How you apply your techniques is up to your interpretation in today's reality. To be so literal in using the exact techniques from your forms, you're really not thinking the same way as the original masters that created the form. No one fights in a straight line using their forms right? By having a good teacher, you build speed, power, agility, accuracy, through the broad understanding and applications from your forms. The dynamic power from punching and kicking in traditional Chinese kung fu is very different than karate or other arts. Mastering it can be done much more easily through practicing the forms (with the right teacher).
As another example, there are couple of grappling techniques in Tong Bei Chuan which has a number of interpretations. Key is interpreting how to use it in the specific fighting circumstances that you are faced with. The creater of forms would never have been able to dream up techniques that can be applied literally against every fighter or fighting system. All up to the teacher and the current circumstances.
Kung fu has evolved through many thousands of years and while forms don't necessarily need to keep changing, the way it is applied in fighting has to. It's just common sense. Fighters today posess different skillsets than they did hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Sanda fighters are very successful because they have traditional kung fu foundations and have adapted effective fighting approaches to go up against other formidable martial arts. Nothing wrong with this. Have yet to see a person use traditional fighting techniques in literal form to defeat the best trained fighters in the world. Anyone whom thinks that this just applies to Chinese traditional martial arts is naive. No different than karate, tae kwon do, etc.
You do know how san shou/san da was developed right?
You do know what MA they choose for their core hand techniques?
It is very true that certain unique flavours can on be developed via forms training and I don't know of ANYONE that advocates NOT doing forms in MA that have them.
Regardless of what some dilusional people may believe, forms DO have their place in the MA, the same place they have always had, the development of attributes and NOT the development of fighting skills.
Some people confuse the two.
Are you familiar with Brian Kennedy's book about CMA training manuals?
A strong core in a TMA is, in my view, essential for developing a fighter.
Pork Chop
12-23-2009, 09:14 AM
good lord both you guys are so eager to u pull your e ***** out and wave it around your not even following whats going on here:D
oh it's not just online
i'll take any excuse to whip my c*ck out. :p
Pork Chop
12-23-2009, 09:39 AM
Re your asessment of the Bian Maofu vs Kaoklai fight: I thought Kaoklai was lazy as hell and I would have scored BMF clearly in front for the first 3 rounds. I thought BMF out struck him the entire fight actually. BMF is not generally known for his throwing either. Unfortunately for Kaoklai, particularly after his last 2 rounds, throws are scored lower in these combined rules matches than in sanda (at the instigation of the Thais). Still, it's China so he should have gone the K.O to be sure. BMF has a chin though...
There was something i was reading on the K1 forums about this fight
they said that the unified rules stated that any throws where both fighters touched the mat would not be counted as a score for either fighter.
To the best of my knowledge, this is different than standard sanshou/sanda rules, where those types of throws score a single point (and clean throws score 3).
As far as BMF's striking, in Thai rules, none of those flicky lower-leg shots would've scored much unless they were noticeably doing damage, especially the ones landing on the bony knee joint instead of the thigh.
Next time I think the Thais need to pull out the big guns and send Buakaw, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf1tYh2LIVY) Saenchai Sor Kingstar, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYRNdwoiqg0) and Yodsaenklai Fairtex (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qisjQK92cI) .... or at least send a clinch master like madsua (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvwb7irfcHg&feature=player_embedded)
B.Tunks
12-23-2009, 02:13 PM
There was something i was reading on the K1 forums about this fight
they said that the unified rules stated that any throws where both fighters touched the mat would not be counted as a score for either fighter.
To the best of my knowledge, this is different than standard sanshou/sanda rules, where those types of throws score a single point (and clean throws score 3).
As far as BMF's striking, in Thai rules, none of those flicky lower-leg shots would've scored much unless they were noticeably doing damage, especially the ones landing on the bony knee joint instead of the thigh.
Next time I think the Thais need to pull out the big guns and send Buakaw, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf1tYh2LIVY) Saenchai Sor Kingstar, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYRNdwoiqg0) and Yodsaenklai Fairtex (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qisjQK92cI) .... or at least send a clinch master like madsua (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvwb7irfcHg&feature=player_embedded)
Yes, Yod is unstoppable, basically anywhere.
Have to say though Bian out-boxed Kaoklai, regardless of flicky kicks. What I was kind of getting at though was that although the Thai outdid the Chinese fighter in the favoured sanda skillset, the Chinese fighter outdid the Thai in the favoured Thai skillset (in this case). BMF fought a very 'Thai' fight (in comparison to the generic sanda style) whereas Kaoklai seemed a little uncomfortable and seemed to be struggling to adapt his style to the rules or maybe what he felt was an unorthodox opponent. Even though he generally has a very relaxed guard, it was almost non-existant in this fight and he used heaps of push kicks, pretty strange for a muay thai fighter in my opinion. I think it's interesting to see everyone adapting to some extent.
Yeah, throw scores have been heavily regulated in these matches as the Thai's were sick of losing on points after doing more phsyical damage in past years. But that's bound to happen when you fuse a point scoring sport with a true bloodsport.
T
Pork Chop
12-23-2009, 06:04 PM
yeah, style wise, Kaoklai is a absolute (http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/my-chat-with-kaoklai/)(exhibit a) mess (http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/kaoklai-vs-clifton/)(exhibit b).
he's always had cr@p boxing and always had that pushkick that's almost a sanshou sidekick. To quote one of those links "he's the sloppiest of the high level Thais". Got absolutely destroyed by Spong and Carnage Corbett.
To his defense, I will say a good push kick is not exactly atypical of Thais, really good ones have it.
re-watched that fight and I think I agree with you.
The clip i posted wasn't the one i watched the first time, which was only the last 3 rounds of the fight (so I'd assumed it was the whole fight).
That first round looked absolutely terrible for kaoklai.
He got out-Thai'd in the first minute. hehe
Funny thing is that palm-in-the-face style of the Sanda fighter exists in muay thai and is considered kind of "old fashioned" or "defensive style", it's how one of my coaches teaches.
Kaoklai was landing a bit with the straight right & the knee but was getting owned the rest of the time.
Secound round was sloppy in spurts but absolutely nothing from Kaoklai.
Third round KK scored a clean throw and looked to me to have edged it out.
Fourth round was a lot closer the first time around, when i started from round 3.
Bian outscored KK like crazy with punches & kicks, while having one clean throw.
Kaoklai had 3 throws, 1 ugly (which I guess didn't count), 1 clean, and 1 borderline (may not have counted).
Fifth round a little more of the same - kaoklai gets out-pointed but scores a bunch of sloppy throws.
A major difference between the 2 scoring systems is how rounds are weighted.
In muay thai, the first round is a throw-away round.
In sanshou/sanda, it's one of the most heavily scored.
As a fight progresses, in muay thai the later rounds are weighted more (imho this is more realistic), whereas in sanshou/sanda the final round seems to be a throw-away round (what I can only assume is a carry-over from amateur style scoring).
The way attacks are scored seems to be different between the two. In muay thai, if you block a kick to the head but fall over & lose your structure, the other guy still gets the point for the attack (reinforcing the "cracking the shell" concept). Pitter-patter leg kicks don't score unless they cause damage or buckling (something that Bian didn't seem to have an issue with till the 3rd round).
Also, ring dominance is a whole foreign beast in muay thai that doesn't even seem to exist in sanshou/sanda. In muay thai the stalking fighter gets credit for being the stalker, a running fighter tends to lose credit - i wouldn't say it's a formal score anything, but it can be that little extra difference. Sanshou/sanda is still very much point based in that only what lands seems to affect scoring. I think ring dominance should not be a deciding factor in a fight; meaning it should only come into play if all # of landed strikes are equal. A guy shouldn't be dinged for running if he's still teeing off on the other fighter. So I can see benefits to chinese scoring here.
B.Tunks
12-26-2009, 03:28 AM
yeah, style wise, Kaoklai is a absolute (http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/my-chat-with-kaoklai/)(exhibit a) mess (http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/kaoklai-vs-clifton/)(exhibit b).
he's always had cr@p boxing and always had that pushkick that's almost a sanshou sidekick. To quote one of those links "he's the sloppiest of the high level Thais". Got absolutely destroyed by Spong and Carnage Corbett.
To his defense, I will say a good push kick is not exactly atypical of Thais, really good ones have it.
re-watched that fight and I think I agree with you.
The clip i posted wasn't the one i watched the first time, which was only the last 3 rounds of the fight (so I'd assumed it was the whole fight).
That first round looked absolutely terrible for kaoklai.
He got out-Thai'd in the first minute. hehe
Funny thing is that palm-in-the-face style of the Sanda fighter exists in muay thai and is considered kind of "old fashioned" or "defensive style", it's how one of my coaches teaches.
Kaoklai was landing a bit with the straight right & the knee but was getting owned the rest of the time.
Secound round was sloppy in spurts but absolutely nothing from Kaoklai.
Third round KK scored a clean throw and looked to me to have edged it out.
Fourth round was a lot closer the first time around, when i started from round 3.
Bian outscored KK like crazy with punches & kicks, while having one clean throw.
Kaoklai had 3 throws, 1 ugly (which I guess didn't count), 1 clean, and 1 borderline (may not have counted).
Fifth round a little more of the same - kaoklai gets out-pointed but scores a bunch of sloppy throws.
A major difference between the 2 scoring systems is how rounds are weighted.
In muay thai, the first round is a throw-away round.
In sanshou/sanda, it's one of the most heavily scored.
As a fight progresses, in muay thai the later rounds are weighted more (imho this is more realistic), whereas in sanshou/sanda the final round seems to be a throw-away round (what I can only assume is a carry-over from amateur style scoring).
The way attacks are scored seems to be different between the two. In muay thai, if you block a kick to the head but fall over & lose your structure, the other guy still gets the point for the attack (reinforcing the "cracking the shell" concept). Pitter-patter leg kicks don't score unless they cause damage or buckling (something that Bian didn't seem to have an issue with till the 3rd round).
Also, ring dominance is a whole foreign beast in muay thai that doesn't even seem to exist in sanshou/sanda. In muay thai the stalking fighter gets credit for being the stalker, a running fighter tends to lose credit - i wouldn't say it's a formal score anything, but it can be that little extra difference. Sanshou/sanda is still very much point based in that only what lands seems to affect scoring. I think ring dominance should not be a deciding factor in a fight; meaning it should only come into play if all # of landed strikes are equal. A guy shouldn't be dinged for running if he's still teeing off on the other fighter. So I can see benefits to chinese scoring here.
****, just wrote a long a.ss response but lost it before posting. in short, agreed wholly. mainly regarding the legacy of amatuer sanda technique/tactics and rule set (e.g, 2 consecutive rounds winning bout, use of leitai etc) disadvantaging the Chinese against the Thais. Also how it's only really been since 'Sanda Wang' that they've really fought in the boxing ring. With that in mind, in the last 10 years they've come light years, and with the current k1-fusion rules they are mucking around with in the south, should soon see them catch up. Also agreed on Kaoklai's sloppiness, plus added a few comments regarding sloppiness in muay thai 'boxing' overall (though certainly not as much in the current generation, many of which are also competitive amateur and even pro boxers alongside muay thai careers)...
Bt
hskwarrior
01-24-2010, 11:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irb8cJ3lRgE
spinning back fist messed him up at 3:32!!!
Pork Chop
01-24-2010, 01:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irb8cJ3lRgE
spinning back fist messed him up at 3:32!!!
guess you missed this convo the first time around
....and the clubbing forearm to the back of the head that actually put him down.
hskwarrior
01-24-2010, 02:00 PM
someone posted that already?
oh i didn't miss that strike...saw it
Pork Chop
01-24-2010, 05:30 PM
did you miss the soccer kick on the way down as well? :)
yah this was posted on another subforum (mma one i believe).
that was lamsongkrom chuwatana getting KOed btw.
he had just been KOed 3 weeks prior in France by lidon, yodsenklai knocked him out a year earlier, dude's 3-5 since 11/08, 8-8 over the last 3 years; hardly unbeatable.
thais are pretty indifferent about these contests by now, regardless of what the chinese papers were saying about "thai team challenging shaolin".
lamsongkrom's own coach was quoted on mymuaythai.com as saying the judging was dirty as heck, but wasn't too upset about it - merely a paycheck.
they understand that they are going in against a stacked deck...
fyi
on top of all the unofficial monkey business, ie:
- the ref jumping in to save any chinese fighter who looks to be in trouble
- the ref calling "break" any time the thai is about to score a throw, in effect nullifying it
- illegal forearm blows to the back of the head being allowed if done by chinese
- permitting a fighter to continue to punch an opponent tied up in the ropes if done by a chinese
- completely arbitrary scoring that always favors the chinese
- thai knockdowns of chinese are not scored
the official rules included the following:
- no knees to the head
- amateur style scoring where points are scored, regardless of damage
- throwing rules such that chinese throws count more than thai throws
- throws score 3 times the points of strikes
the chinese have only made 1 attempt to fight thai rules in Thailand.
they fought on the kings cup in 2002 and lost to the Thais 4 to 1
meanwhile you had guys like buakaw going over there and absolutely destroying guys like sun tao.
i like san da
i came up in sanda/san shou
but these events are leaving a bad taste in my mouth
so much bloody politics and favoritism that i've kinda stopped being a fan of the mainland variety; i'd rather just watch pure muay thai or k1-max - not that either has flawless judging, but at it isn't that blatant.
TenTigers
01-24-2010, 09:55 PM
sounds like payback for the Thai vs Chinese bouts they had in the earlly 80's. They had seasoned Thai fighters going up against neophyte Kung-Fu guys-it was a trainwreck.
Pork Chop
01-24-2010, 10:54 PM
sounds like payback for the Thai vs Chinese bouts they had in the earlly 80's. They had seasoned Thai fighters going up against neophyte Kung-Fu guys-it was a trainwreck.
that's the thing that's becoming apparent with the mainland chinese crowd, no amount of "payback" will ever be sufficient for them. this is probably exacerbated by the fact that they know they can't dominate legitimately so they have to have rigged fights, which are less "satisfying".
though, to be honest, I hardly consider amateurs volunteering to fight against pros in the same league as fights with phony rules, unscrupulous refs, & biased judges.
by the 80s everyone in asia should've known 3 things about the thai:
1. they start from a young age coz kids are sold into camps to pay off family gambling debts
2. if they could fight, they were pro; because up until relatively recently there were no amateurs
3. you better bring your "A" game
if you're talking about the southeast asia tournament, you can't really blame the thais for whooping on a delegation of amateurs sent by the chinese; they had to fight who was there.
if you're talking about fighting black kings, that was a kyokushin thing. the thais that showed up bowed out because of the lack of weight classes & the fact that they weren't used to multiple fights in one day.
GeneChing
04-14-2010, 09:30 AM
Good ol' Emei. That's my school (http://www.usaomei.com/). But I study Shaolin there...;)
Foreign fighters eye Chinese Emei kung fu (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-04/14/content_9729970.htm)
By Zhang Jiawei (chinadaily.com.cn)
Updated: 2010-04-14 16:28
Several foreign fighters from different countries have offered a challenge to Chinese Emei kung fu, the chinanews.com.cn reported Wednesday, citing a person familiar with the matter from the Emei Martial Arts Association.
The reason they offered the challenge is that Shaolin Temple sidestepped five famous professional Thai Boxers' challenges to Chinese kung fu in 2009, while Wang Jian, director of the Emei Martial Arts Association, stepped in to pick up the gauntlet and attracted boxers' attention worldwide, the person said.
Wang said Chinese kung fu has to have interaction with and learn from the world if it wants further development, and he and his followers are willing to meet with foreign fighters.
GeneChing
05-20-2010, 09:38 AM
This came up yesterday as a broken link. Now there's 7 pages, presumably for 7 pics, but only the first one works.
http://english.people.com.cn/mediafile/201005/19/P201005191523541508926259.jpg
World Muay Thai King visits Shaolin Temple (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90782/90873/6991115.html)
15:21, May 19, 2010
May 18, the active Muay Thai King Lan Sangkun (second from the left), Yasangkelai (first from the right) and coach appeared in China Songshan Shaolin Temple in Henan. Accompanied by the China secretary-general Zou Guojun of the WBC MUA THAI, they visited Master Shi Yongxin, the Songshan Shaolin Temple's abbot and presented to the Shaolin Temple WBC betts.
shaolin_diciple
09-17-2010, 04:02 PM
any news?:)
sanjuro_ronin
12-08-2010, 02:12 PM
Do military units train in kick boxing, BJJ or MMA specifically ?
Yes, some do as part of their combatives training while others have them as part of their hybrid H2H systems.
Rangers did BJJ, not sure if they still do.
Army combatives is basically MMA.
MasterKiller
12-08-2010, 02:34 PM
Army combatives is basically MMA. I wouldn't go that far.
They do a little striking and clinch work. It's mostly grappling until you get to Level 3, which most soldiers never do.
GeneChing
12-08-2010, 02:54 PM
If you have a gun, that changes everything. Even a knife changes everything.
sanjuro_ronin
12-09-2010, 07:29 AM
I wouldn't go that far.
They do a little striking and clinch work. It's mostly grappling until you get to Level 3, which most soldiers never do.
By MMA I mean Mixed martial arts not MMA the trademark of the UFC.
lkfmdc
12-09-2010, 09:11 AM
The training of close quarters combat (CQC) in the military is not something you can answer with a blanket statement.
In the US, CQC wasn't really taken seriously as applicable fighting skills, ie they still basicly believe the gun, tank, artillery and bomb is what war is about. CQC stuff (pugel stick, boxing, BJJ now, etc) was more for MENTAL TOUGHNESS.
In the former Soviet Union and perhaps Russia today, CQC was seen very much as a real, functional skill
The Chinese seem to follow the Russian model
The British at some point also took CQC very seriously, I don't know if that is still true
MasterKiller
12-09-2010, 09:26 AM
In the US, CQC wasn't really taken seriously as applicable fighting skills, ie they still basicly believe the gun, tank, artillery and bomb is what war is about. CQC stuff (pugel stick, boxing, BJJ now, etc) was more for MENTAL TOUGHNESS. The ARMY philosophy is to survive a hand-to-hand engagement long enough for your battle buddy to shoot the guy in the head. They carry way too much equipment to try to street-fight someone. Hence, the focus on grappling and clinching.
sanjuro_ronin
12-09-2010, 10:47 AM
The training of close quarters combat (CQC) in the military is not something you can answer with a blanket statement.
In the US, CQC wasn't really taken seriously as applicable fighting skills, ie they still basicly believe the gun, tank, artillery and bomb is what war is about. CQC stuff (pugel stick, boxing, BJJ now, etc) was more for MENTAL TOUGHNESS.
In the former Soviet Union and perhaps Russia today, CQC was seen very much as a real, functional skill
The Chinese seem to follow the Russian model
The British at some point also took CQC very seriously, I don't know if that is still true
Our is a combo of boxing, judo, sambo and karate.
We have competitions for all 4 in the Canadian army.
Hardwork108
08-30-2011, 01:18 AM
Short interesting fight. The caption claims that the Chinese figher was an Ex-Shaolin disciple:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjm5-lcHH5U&feature=related
.
omarthefish
08-30-2011, 04:14 AM
Can't find anything about training at Shaolin in his bio:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/1916700.htm
Just says he started with forms and then later moved on to Sanda. I found some other links say he trained at 河南少林塔沟武术学院 "Shaolin Tagou Wushu Academy". Basically he's on a regular Sanda team. Schools like that are divided into forms and Sanda departments.
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2011, 04:16 AM
Didn't see anything else besides some muay thai. Digging deep to find that clip of tcma in action.
Hardwork108
08-30-2011, 04:22 AM
Can't find anything about training at Shaolin in his bio:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/1916700.htm
Just says he started with forms and then later moved on to Sanda. I found some other links say he trained at 河南少林塔沟武术学院 "Shaolin Tagou Wushu Academy". Basically he's on a regular Sanda team. Schools like that are divided into forms and Sanda departments.
Thank you for the info. I guess he did train some form of Shaolin, including forms.
SimonM
08-30-2011, 04:22 AM
Here is the low-down on his school. (http://www.shaolinwushu.net/se.asp?nowmenuid=500113)
It is a shaolin area school, the head coach is Liu Haike (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/1174662.Liu_Haike).
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2011, 04:26 AM
Looks pricey.
SimonM
08-30-2011, 04:32 AM
Looks pricey.
Needs a webpage designer.
But, yeah, some considerable money is going into that school. I don't have time to thoroughly research it today but I expect state involvement in a project of that scale.
taai gihk yahn
08-30-2011, 05:41 AM
Thank you for the info. I guess he did train some form of Shaolin, including forms.
which I doubt had much to do w developing the glorified kickboxing skill set he demonstrated here...
pazman
08-30-2011, 06:33 AM
Some of the guys that I train with used to train at Tagou. It's the biggest wushu school in Dengfeng, Henan.
"Traditional" taolu are taught in China as a form of Physical Education and very rarely taught in a traditional manner. If he had studied any taolu at all at Tagou, he probably knows a version of Qixingquan. But even then, he would only know the movements.
One of the sanda guys that I train with studied taolu at Tagou for 3 years, and was asking me for the applications for well known forms like Xiaohongquan. That's certainly an indication of what kind training students there get.
And there are lots of "Ex-Shaolin disciples" floating around. I'm not sure if that even means anything now.
And the price...nearly every wushu school in China that I've encountered has an incredibly inflated imagination when it comes to how much their training is worth. Schools are also becoming increasing resistant to bargaining with foreigners. When people looking to train full-time ask for suggestions as to where to train, I usually suggest that Japan is now possibly cheaper to train in full-time.:eek:
David Jamieson
08-30-2011, 06:39 AM
If you wanna wear a brand name, you have to pay for it with money.
If you want to develop real skill, you still have to pay, but the price is time and effort.
Frost
08-30-2011, 09:55 AM
anyone notice that this fighting looked nothing like the authentic sparring HW made a thread about, strange how when contact is really made people tend to not look like that monk looked in that thread..........
wenshu
08-30-2011, 10:39 AM
I am very impressed with HW108's cognitive dissonance threshold; he had absolutely no problem jumping on the love train for Patterson shifu even though the footage of those students looked suspiciously like the repetitively derided "glorified kickboxing".
Faruq
08-31-2011, 03:07 PM
got direct links:
Kaoklai:
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p0.html
Kaew:
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p1.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p2.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p3.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p4.html
Big ben:
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p5.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p6.html
Naruepol :
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p7.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p8.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p9.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p10.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p11.html
Lamsongkram :
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p12.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p13.html
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f4024943o1p14.html
Got any links to footage of the "Taiwan Blood Bath"?
"The training was designed to 4 of my students to fight in the full contact tournament in Taiwan, which is bare knuckle. The rules in Taiwan were simple, you could use ground work, low kicks, take downs, etc. I had approximately 3 years to produce winners. I taught them a type of iron hand that required boiling in medicine; being able to fight full contact with just a mouth guard and a cup. They were celibate for the period of training, (or supposed to be). They could run 5 miles or more each day and do knuckle push-ups on gravel ﾖ anything. I taught them body conditioning so they could take a punch and how to deal with strikes anywhere on their body. The rules used in Taiwan were simple and few at that time. An example of the first time, held two fighters were killed. Some papers in Asia billed it as the Taiwanese blood bath. The times that my four were challenged before hand, they never lost. The bouts were three, 3 minute rounds and you could even throw a man out of the ring. It was brutal and the injuries were staggering! There is a lot more to training with those four sets that I have not gone into, and I wonﾒt. I will not teach anyone ever again like those four. First, I do not think there is anyone with that dedication to go through it, and it is a brutalizing experience for the fighters. There also are things that I taught them, that I wouldnﾒt trust to anyone now. The two last sets have things that should stay with only those four and no one else. The movements are definitely not to be used for sport. There is no other than those four that know how it really works as the sets were designed for them only and so no one could work out anything dangerous without the knowledge from me or one of mine. Two have not done them for years, one is dead ﾖ that leaves Mike and myself. We are the only two left that have any knowledge of how they really work. The sets themselves need to have with them the knowledge that is visible and were passed on by me and written by Mike. They are ours to determine what happens to them and cannot be bought. They are a precursor to learning the Pak Mei as I was taught and only the few ever learn. My style as the great teacher Cheung Lai-Chun practiced will not be for sale and if only one tode learns it, it will not die. It lasted many years in China when names of boxing were not used and will continue long after my death and my todes are gone. This is the real proof of a real art, that it will exist long after the founders are gone."
(http://www.pakmei.net/articles/article.asp?ID=16)
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