The importance of fighting

[Ray Pina]

Not really missing my training as I nurse this busted hand, I've been training everything I've learned that I can train by myself. I want to say I realize everything is the same only done differently but it's not.

There are tremendous differences in attitudes and approach to defense. My karate style tends to take on a side stance countenance, purposely raising the front arm to invite attack to my ribs.... side kick waiting.

Wing Chun was very frontal and center oriented. I now hate its structure, very erect frontal attitude, but its understanding of controlling the center is great. I like its intercepting and trapping. Its weakness again, is structure. Bong Sau, positionally/structurally, is weak. You have no real stopping power with your shoulder like that (And I know it's a drilling motion intended to lift. But what when the other knows it and sinks, setting you up.... you have no position to lift, so you run the hand exposing yourself).

Internal was a way of doing all the things I've always done but smarter. More efficiently with better structure.

Boxing is bad ass. The technique is sound, but you have to be tough, because you're going to absorb blows. And you're going to stand there in range sooner or later. There's tremendous skill involved, but it is a game for the tough minded.


My point.... not sure. Just thinking about all the training and how as I grew and really thought about "How good is my martial art, meaning, comparatively" ... because I thought I was pretty good ... I wanted to go see. When you go see you start asking your instructor different questions. You don't ask, "How should my hand be?" ... "You ask, "Yea, but what if he does X?"

That bothers some teachers.... tough $hit. It's my pretty face I'm trying to protect.

Put your teachers on the spot. If they're good and cool they'll handle it well. If not, go find someone who's good and cool. I don't have access to that many here within reasonable travel distance (beat up surf truck). Man, train. Train. Train.

[TenTigers]

Wing Chun was very frontal and center oriented. I now hate its structure, very erect frontal attitude, but its understanding of controlling the center is great. I like its intercepting and trapping. Its weakness again, is structure. Bong Sau, positionally/structurally, is weak. You have no real stopping power with your shoulder like that (And I know it's a drilling motion intended to lift. But what when the other knows it and sinks, setting you up.... you have no position to lift, so you run the hand exposing yourself).


Ray-you don't seem to really have a knowledge or understanding of Wing Chun to make these statements. It really depends on where you learned your WCK from. Learning a few drills and playing chi-sao does not give you an understanding of the system.
ALL Wing Chun isn't always erect and frontal, in many schools, only when it is in toe to toe range. Look at Ali. Outside range he fought more side body, inside range he faced to be able to use both hands. Many boxers do this.

You may have learned your bong sao incorrectly, or have a misinterpetation of its use. Bong-Sao has different energies, and rising is but one of them. Bong sao can crash, Bong-sao can deflect. Bong-Sao can uproot, etc. Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, you should get out more. See other WCK instructors.

That is like someone saying, "the jab is only good for feeling an opponent out, and establishing range. I don't find it effective, so I've dropped it."
That is only one small use of a jab. Certainly not its only use.

Hey, I'm not saying you should start using bong-sao. I am sure it does not fit in with your own personal methodology and techniques as a fighter. We all choose our own arsenal. I don't like axe kicks. Sure, I've seen people dropped by them. I just don't feel comfortable with that tool.

"Internal was a way of doing all the things I've always done but smarter. More efficiently with better structure."

-Great Line-that's kinda the definition of internal. Actually, it's the definition of any art, when it's taught correctly.

[Dragonzbane76]

Hey, I'm not saying you should start using bong-sao. I am sure it does not fit in with your own personal methodology and techniques as a fighter. We all choose our own arsenal. I don't like axe kicks. Sure, I've seen people dropped by them. I just don't feel comfortable with that tool.

you know at least you say it without looking down upon someone. I've read through some of your posts and i don't agree with a lot of what you say but at least you say it in a manner that is not condesending. :)

[Lucas]

you know at least you say it without looking down upon someone. I've read through some of your posts and i don't agree with a lot of what you say but at least you say it in a manner that is not condesending. :)

Isnt it refreshing to see posts that critisize but in a well thought out non instulting and often in a constructive manner?

[Lokhopkuen]

Not really missing my training as I nurse this busted hand, I've been training everything I've learned that I can train by myself. I want to say I realize everything is the same only done differently but it's not.

There are tremendous differences in attitudes and approach to defense. My karate style tends to take on a side stance countenance, purposely raising the front arm to invite attack to my ribs.... side kick waiting.

Wing Chun was very frontal and center oriented. I now hate its structure, very erect frontal attitude, but its understanding of controlling the center is great. I like its intercepting and trapping. Its weakness again, is structure. Bong Sau, positionally/structurally, is weak. You have no real stopping power with your shoulder like that (And I know it's a drilling motion intended to lift. But what when the other knows it and sinks, setting you up.... you have no position to lift, so you run the hand exposing yourself).

Internal was a way of doing all the things I've always done but smarter. More efficiently with better structure.

Boxing is bad ass. The technique is sound, but you have to be tough, because you're going to absorb blows. And you're going to stand there in range sooner or later. There's tremendous skill involved, but it is a game for the tough minded.


My point.... not sure. Just thinking about all the training and how as I grew and really thought about "How good is my martial art, meaning, comparatively" ... because I thought I was pretty good ... I wanted to go see. When you go see you start asking your instructor different questions. You don't ask, "How should my hand be?" ... "You ask, "Yea, but what if he does X?"

That bothers some teachers.... tough $hit. It's my pretty face I'm trying to protect.

Put your teachers on the spot. If they're good and cool they'll handle it well. If not, go find someone who's good and cool. I don't have access to that many here within reasonable travel distance (beat up surf truck). Man, train. Train. Train.

I find words like "good" or "bad" comparatively to be emotional perspective and not a true meter of skill level. How you feel about it might start to have less personal emotional impact if you simplify your goals while training the fight. These days training for life encounters and fitness I begun to think more about constancy as opposed how good I think did or didn't do compared to whoever.

Sh!t today I'm nursing a middle finger that got sprained in a scuffle on the job last week and then i jacked it up again last night in a class rolling around getting out of a nasty rear naked choke that I foolishly got myself into. I ended getting him to tap instead of me:D

Currently I'm working harder experimenting & developing skill sets and testing what works or does not work as efficiently. When I am sparring with a mate or student I attempt to be consistent in my abilities to stop, block, redirect or neutralize attacks there-by taking less punishment and also using these defensives to engage for seizing, arresting and throwing.

In striking I attempt to consistently deliver strikes with accuracy and with a range of force that will give my opponent pause. If the opponent finds himself the object of fierce punishment every time he enters my sphere then just by positioning and body language I can control his movements by just making him feel he might get hit if he doesn't change position.

Truly the best way to learn to fight is to practice combative essences in a variety of scenarios that realistically expose the partitioner to conditions that are potentially more challenging than what they'd expect to experience in a real life or death situation.

Wanna learn to fight then fight a lot, fight smart.

My two cents.

[Ray Pina]

You may have learned your bong sao incorrectly, or have a misinterpetation of its use. Bong-Sao has different energies, and rising is but one of them. Bong sao can crash, Bong-sao can deflect. Bong-Sao can uproot, etc. Before you throw the baby out with the bathwater, you should get out more. See other WCK instructors..

You know where I was introduced to Wing Chun. And through that instructor's brother I had access to play with Wing Chun guys from Chinatown. I also personally played with Emin Boztepe.... in my opinion, the structure of that movement is weak. Someone can use it successfully 1,000,000 times.... wrong structure is wrong structure.

I'll post video of my last kung fu tournament where I was disqualified from Chi Sau while standing on a box.

The referee, Norman CHin, kept stopping the action, saying what I was doing was not Wing Chun... he was right. But we were sticking hand and I kept being able to land my hands on a larger man. Then he said the shots wouldn't have power.... I was later disqualified from sparring for landing a similar technique to the same guys head.

I'm on deadline right now and want to surf. But I'll compile some footage and throw it on Youtube later this week when I have time.

This is the No. 1 lessons I've learned. Look at something honestly from all angles. If there is a problem, toss it out. Don't hold onto it. Keep the baby, throw out the dirty water.

I personally have found a way to exploit wing chun.... easily. Its just my style matches up well against that style. Now that's talking.

But I haven't seen ANY Wing CHun man utilize bong sau to the succesful level in real open play like countless boxers have the jab. The systems been around long enough. Probably millions of followers.

[MightyB]

Seriously-

I'm in this weird phase where I like to go to JiuJitsu on Monday's and Judo on Fridays just to roll a bit and call it a night. I'll bust out a form occasionally at home- but I really don't see the point. Just work out to keep in shape and roll. I'll even compete without any formal training ramp up. I win- I lose- I don't care. I find the rolling in Jiu Jitsu and Judo to be infinitely more fun than practicing KF solo. But- in the end, I'm pretty confident and comfortable with where I'm at in the martial arts and find that I care less about it. I like busting out sweet set ups and counters against someone--- that's really gratifying.

[Pork Chop]

Just thought this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPjl1PUngPI) needed to be posted in this thread...

[Lucas]

gotta love top of the game mike tyson

[Lucas]

Seriously-

I'm in this weird phase where I like to go to JiuJitsu on Monday's and Judo on Fridays just to roll a bit and call it a night. I'll bust out a form occasionally at home- but I really don't see the point. Just work out to keep in shape and roll. I'll even compete without any formal training ramp up. I win- I lose- I don't care. I find the rolling in Jiu Jitsu and Judo to be infinitely more fun than practicing KF solo. But- in the end, I'm pretty confident and comfortable with where I'm at in the martial arts and find that I care less about it. I like busting out sweet set ups and counters against someone--- that's really gratifying.

ive been grappling with that myself or a while now. sometimes i ask myself 'why am i training?"

sure i like it. but whats REALLY the point? being able to fight? defend myself? stay in shape? sometimes i dont know anymore, but you just keep doing it...its been so long since ive had to actually defend myself (which has always been my primary reason to train, just knowing i can defend myself) that it feels hollow sometimes. like im training for no purpose.

i know it happens to a lot of people, question what their goals are and re-evaluate what they are doing and why...im hitting that decade mark in my training, which isnt a long time, but it feels like a milestone to me and i struggle with my momentum. compile that ontop of a crappy knee injury and its a fight all in its own.

/endrant

[Pork Chop]

Seriously-

I'm in this weird phase where I like to go to JiuJitsu on Monday's and Judo on Fridays just to roll a bit and call it a night. I'll bust out a form occasionally at home- but I really don't see the point. Just work out to keep in shape and roll. I'll even compete without any formal training ramp up. I win- I lose- I don't care. I find the rolling in Jiu Jitsu and Judo to be infinitely more fun than practicing KF solo. But- in the end, I'm pretty confident and comfortable with where I'm at in the martial arts and find that I care less about it. I like busting out sweet set ups and counters against someone--- that's really gratifying.

This may sound weird or lazy, but one of the reasons I've had such a hard time getting my act together for competition is that the more consecutive weeks I "ramp up" my training, the more stale & injury prone I get.

I've done some amazing sh!t my 2nd or 3rd workout back from a layoff that I'm not able to recreate after weeks or months of "sticking to a perfect schedule". Injuries always pile up real quick when i've been "staying on track"; I'm not even talking what we normally consider "overdoing it", merely maintaining a training schedule that most gyms will recommend.

Not sure if it's coz I'm getting old, if my rest is not good enough so i should reduce the volume, or if a lot of other guys are just on roids.

I would almost prefer to take a fight after only being back in the gym a few weeks, instead of following a "proper" ramped-up training program.

[Ray Pina]

In striking I attempt to consistently deliver strikes with accuracy and with a range of force that will give my opponent pause. If the opponent finds himself the object of fierce punishment every time he enters my sphere then just by positioning and body language I can control his movements by just making him feel he might get hit if he doesn't change position.
.

I love this.

[Ray Pina]

ive been grappling with that myself or a while now. sometimes i ask myself 'why am i training?"



Me too. Especially now that I'm injured and enjoying the good life of being able to hang out on week nights, surf until I'm exhausted because I don't have to go train.

I know I'm getting older too but I do still want to win one sanctioned MMA event. I'm in a chillin' stage right now. I'll see what happens.

[Ray Pina]

True about the injuries too. I busted my hand doing grip escapes drills.

Right before my fight, I was so exhausted and beat up from training two guys that have never tapped me, tapped me. They haven't tapped me since.

Just one of those things. Everyone is working hard. And when you're a competitive guy everybody comes for you, brings their A game.

[sanjuro_ronin]

.


In striking I attempt to consistently deliver strikes with accuracy and with a range of force that will give my opponent pause. If the opponent finds himself the object of fierce punishment every time he enters my sphere then just by positioning and body language I can control his movements by just making him feel he might get hit if he doesn't change position.

Truly the best way to learn to fight is to practice combative essences in a variety of scenarios that realistically expose the partitioner to conditions that are potentially more challenging than what they'd expect to experience in a real life or death situation.

Wanna learn to fight then fight a lot, fight smart.

My two cents.

Well said dude.
If your strikes can't compromise your opponents structure all you are doing if "sissy fighting".
Leave that to the WC and Kenpo guys.
:D

[ittokaos]

Gonna say stuff that might not make sense and this will be like a foolish rant. Just sayin'.

Thanks for the boxing vid. It's funny but you don't see anyone using defense anymore. Just adding some bobbing and weaving sets up your opponent for the punch. It's a great tool that hardly anyone uses(that I have seen anyway).

As for bong sao, what ten tigers said was right(which actually happens often). The bong sao is a vry versitile tool however, it is only half of the tool. The bong sao is used to meet the opponent and the tan sao takes away the weapon. For example, someone goes to punch, you bong sao to meet the punch and once connection is made and the desired effect is acheived(crashing, lifting, etc...) the tan sao springs out. Your hand is now on top of your opponents and combos and the like can commence. The main thing to remember about WCK is that while you are facing your opponent, that does not mean that you are always face to face with him. If you are then, correct, WCK and it's structure makes no sense in a fight. Footwork and angling is needed to make the art effective. If you have no footwork then you are just standing there hoping that you can trap(which unfortunately the majority do).

Now is when I get kinda offensive. Just sayin'.

If you can't make it work for you then you dont understand it. At this point you have to decide that either you will train it until it makes sense or you will try something easier for you to understand. Either way, don't make excuses and say things like "it's structurally weak" or "this stance exposes me too much" to make yourself feel better. YOU SUCK!!!! So, now that you know this you can either get better or you can complain about how you were never taught right.

Pork Chop. If you are still getting hurt by exercises that are appropriate for you then there is either something wrong(like maybe you should see a doctor) or you are doing them wrong. One thing that I have found out(I am still young so I still have a lot to learn ;D) is that when you stop for a little while, you can't go back to what you were doing before. You have to start off easier. Your body starts to get weaker during extended times of rest. That may be why you are getting injured. Try to do little things throughout the day to keep up your training. That's what I do. At least then if I can't(or just didnt) fit a training session in, I did something.

[TenTigers]

not trying to hijack, but...
more about Bong-Sao. If it is done correctly, with proper alignment, the structure is actually extremely strong. If you do it right, you can have someone lean on it with all their weight and it will not collapse. Alignment is key-in everything.
If your bong-sao is "weak," then you simply are not aligning yourself properly, which means...you're doing it wrong. period.
BTW-no one tool can be used for everything, and of course, there will be instances when bong-sao is innapropriate. In these cases,(which again means it is being used incorrectly) yes, it will be considered weak.
So, you are in a way correct, but only because you haven't been shown.

[Ray Pina]

The bong sao is used to meet the opponent and the tan sao takes away the weapon. For example, someone goes to punch, you bong sao to meet the punch and once connection is made and the desired effect is acheived(crashing, lifting, etc...) the tan sao springs out. Your hand is now on top of your opponents and combos and the like can commence.

This is an irregular use but a fine enough example:

Most people Bong Sau and then Tan Sau....usually you wind up with the Tan Sau INSIDE, with the forearm vertical, leaving a nice handle for the guy to use fuk sau to real you in and counter.

To Bong Sau and end up with your hand on the outside means A) you ran your hand (wrists) from its inside bong sau centerline position to gain a top position.... you not only have to lose connectivity to do that (it would be structurally awkward to even do that to a stationary pipe) you abandoned your center line defense B) Its not a good position. Im inside, have more leverage, can use my elbow to move you out while going to your head.

A wing Chun guy could go for your eye with the finger jab. But then you can fuk sau. Then he can bong sau..... I know the game. Then I learned all this following the other guy's arms all over the place is silly, a waste of time and dangerous. All of that movement is weak. Like a bike tire spinning. Put one good solid object in there you shut the whole thing down..... do that with good forward moment against a verticail Wing Chun guy(it helps if he tries using that retarded stomp kick WC likes) and you got a WC guy on his arse. I've done it so many times I got board and took up MMA.

[TenTigers]

Then I learned all this following the other guy's arms all over the place is silly, a waste of time and dangerous.


(it helps if he tries using that retarded stomp kick WC likes) and you got a WC guy on his arse. I've done it so many times I got board and took up MMA.

the first part-"Don't chase hands" is a Southern Siu-Lum maxim. Good point.

on the second part-how is a front heel thrust different than a teep? Other than a teep being used more often to control distance and set up a strike, and the heel thrust being an attack?

also, how do you do separate quotes?

[Ray Pina]

on the second part-how is a front heel thrust different than a teep? Other than a teep being used more often to control distance and set up a strike, and the heel thrust being an attack?

also, how do you do separate quotes?

That traditional Wing Chun kick, the one you see Master Yip Man doing on the wooden man in the pictures, the same one in The Dragon, the Bruce Lee movie, is structurally inferior to the Teep and any other "normal" kick.

This is the part of southern Kung Fu I don't get, why people don't question things. As a kid, would you ever position your leg like this to stomp and pop a milk carton?
http://www.londonwingchun.com/images/Yip_Man_wooden_dummy.jpg

No way. It has no power. You would pick your leg up, load its mass/weight and bring it down. That above picture is a picture of a man on his a$$ and not even knowing it.

[TenTigers]

ok, the cross kick being demonstrated is aimed at the knee. From close range, it can generate a great deal of force. It can also be used to break the opponent's structure, as illustrated by Yip Man. You cannot do a low sidekick at that range as you are in too tight. Is this the only example you have for this kick, or are you talking about using it under different circumstances?

[Ray Pina]

ok, the cross kick being demonstrated is aimed at the knee. From close range, it can generate a great deal of force. It can also be used to break the opponent's structure, as illustrated by Yip Man. You cannot do a low sidekick at that range as you are in too tight. Is this the only example you have for this kick, or are you talking about using it under different circumstances?

I'm saying to pick your foot up in that manner (with the toes pointed outward) at that range (contact/bridged) is retarded.

[Ray Pina]

... and also why I beat solely Wing Chun-trained guys all the time. Their structure is wrong. And the chain punching they are so proud of is weak. And their inability to bridge as often or as well in real fighting enables it nowhere near as accurate .... bad structure, weak, inaccurate striking.

But I do like its idea of trapping, sticking. I just think, from what I've seen of it today, people get too caught up in Chi Sau and chasing hands everywhere instead of just reaching out and touching someone. Good Chi sau is strategically thrown strikes that have stragetic lines/angles to them, that plow their way through objects. Collapse WHILE hitting. Lifting WHILE hitting (otherwise it becomes tit-for-tat.... a repetitive rythm). And not surprisingly, it often ends up clinching.

[Ray Pina]

Honestly, looking at that picture again, the pole is almost knocking him over.

I understand and respect is age. To be able to pick the foot up at that age like that is already worth the training. But kids emulate it. And its wrong. And it will cause them to get dumped.

[goju]

how is that retarded? your toes are pointed outward when you do a stomp kick in that manner


brandon vera did the same thing to kieth jardines knee when they fought look how that retarded technique failed...oh wait:D

[TenTigers]

I'm saying to pick your foot up in that manner (with the toes pointed outward) at that range (contact/bridged) is retarded.

I guess I can agree with that, if indeed you are opening up your kwa and breaking your own structure. Yip Man's kwa is not opened in this case, and he is leaning into the kick a bit.
However, The way I learned it is that the knee is lifted on the centerline and the foot does not turn out until the kick is thrust.

[Pork Chop]

Pork Chop. If you are still getting hurt by exercises that are appropriate for you then there is either something wrong(like maybe you should see a doctor) or you are doing them wrong. One thing that I have found out(I am still young so I still have a lot to learn ;D) is that when you stop for a little while, you can't go back to what you were doing before. You have to start off easier. Your body starts to get weaker during extended times of rest. That may be why you are getting injured. Try to do little things throughout the day to keep up your training. That's what I do. At least then if I can't(or just didnt) fit a training session in, I did something.

You're right about the second part that you can't jump into things 100% after a layoff, this I've learned time and time again - but after the first couple weeks back you can start to find your rhythm again. Depending on the length of the layoff, often around 1 or 2 months back in I'm feeling pretty good.

The injuries for me come when I've been hitting the gym for months on end without any significant breaks. When workouts leave me absolutely worn out and I'm not quite healing up by the next workout. They can also occur when I'm so drained from a hard workout that I can't keep myself safe during partner work.

Achieving this state is almost mandatory when it comes to fight preparation; coaches will intentionally try to put you there. They'll purposely throw you in to round-robin sparring after you've just brutalized your already beaten-up, banged-up body with an extended, grueling workout. They get you to that point where they want to see if you're going to fold or keep pushing through.

For me, THAT'S when I get injured.
I'll finish the workout, but starting the next day I'm usually laid up.

Had my ribs bruised the first time this year in January sparring my second consecutive partner round-robin following a 2 hour calisthenic, plyometric, heavybag, and skills workout.

Busted my ribs in April of this year against the same guy on my 6th consecutive workout day that week, already feeling the oncoming effects of "overtraining flu".

Re-injured my ribs in June at the end of another 2+ hour workout, while working sprawl rounds (he shoots, I sprawl) with my second consecutive partner, right after I'd just puked in the ring. Oh yah they'd also denied me rest breaks between rounds at that point so the puking was followed by nearly passing out. Achieved another puke-almost pass out combo following the re-injury of the ribs too.

EDIT: When I went back to boxing & muay thai in the fall; once i got past the first few workouts & started to get my wind back I started doing really well especially in sparring - but after maintaining the rigorous schedule for a month or two I definitely lost a step and started getting banged up.

Fight prep training is borderline insane.
You kinda gotta do it to harden yourself; but part of me would rather conserve a little energy & focus on peaking instead of just seeing what I can take.
I'd rather be a little under-trained, but almost 100% fresh than be "properly" trained & be completely stale. I find that I can do so much more when i'm not dragging a$$.

[AdrianK]

I'll post video of my last kung fu tournament where I was disqualified from Chi Sau while standing on a box.

The referee, Norman CHin, kept stopping the action, saying what I was doing was not Wing Chun... he was right. But we were sticking hand and I kept being able to land my hands on a larger man. Then he said the shots wouldn't have power.... I was later disqualified from sparring for landing a similar technique to the same guys head.

Norman Chin of Jook Lum SPM? Thats weird as hell you'd get disqualified for that. I'd love to see the vid though.

[TenTigers]

Norman Chin of Jook Lum SPM? Thats weird as hell you'd get disqualified for that. I'd love to see the vid though.
also considering that the chi-sao comps are not limited to WCK, but all short hand styles

[Pork Chop]

I guess I can agree with that, if indeed you are opening up your kwa and breaking your own structure. Yip Man's kwa is not opened in this case, and he is leaning into the kick a bit.
However, The way I learned it is that the knee is lifted on the centerline and the foot does not turn out until the kick is thrust.

I've used the instep push kick in kung fu, san shou, and muay thai.

It's a solid part of my arsenal.

In muay thai, one of the "dirty tricks" (aka traditional moves that're no longer legal), is to get positional dominance in the clinch from an outside angle and use that kick to stop your opponent's knee in sideways. When I saw one of my coaches showing that move I did my best Keanu: "Woooahhh, you know kung fu"

The rest of the time I'll try to stomp in the crease of the hip. Main purpose is used as a stop hit to stop forward momentum, but by hitting the crease in the hip, sometimes you can take them out of position for what they were originally planning, messing up their rhythm, and you might make them bend over ever so slightly, bend over enough times in a fight and it'll mess with their power & endurance. I got a few tricks for setting up that kick too.

One of the sihings at my last kung fu school also happened to be a gym mate of Khun Kao Charuad from this site, my muay thai coach in Virginia. When I asked Khun Kao about this guy, the first thing he said was "it was ridiculous, he's the only guy I've ever seen knock out someone with a push kick"; though, granted, it was probably more of a heel push kick instead of an instep push kick, but it definitely wasn't a garden variety teep.

[Ray Pina]

I guess I can agree with that, if indeed you are opening up your kwa and breaking your own structure. Yip Man's kwa is not opened in this case, and he is leaning into the kick a bit.



I don't mean to be a stickler, but I enjoy this part of martial arts as well, the informed debate.

I argue that his weight is not forward. Study the picture: http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/assets/2009/10/22/yip-man_full.jpg

Go to the center of his supporting leg foot, as that is where his weight is being balanced, and draw a line straight up. He's balanced perfectly center. This is the "vertical" attitude I refer to. This works against stationary objects that don't push back.

This: http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/Pi.jpg is a better structure. Though erect, the foot positions allow for pushing AND pulling. The front foot can be engaged and there's pushing/jamming power behind it.

In my opinion.

[Ray Pina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w

Fast forward past all the BS but look at 3:23 seconds into this video. Freeze it there: This is a very similar real life situation to what Yip Man is training on the wooden man... hands up looking to intercept or bridge.... draw a line straight up from the center of my supporting leg. See a difference?

[TenTigers]

I dissagree. Actually, the mechanics of the kick is completely different. The cross stomp to the leg of the jong the body coils as the hips drop into the strike, which is why the body can remain upright. Look at the picture closely, and you can see that his sacrum is tucked, his body is coiled, his rear leg bent. If this didn't occur, then when hitting an immovable object like the jong-which is huge in comparrison to him, then the body would be pushed back.

[Ray Pina]

... If this didn't occur, then when hitting an immovable object like the jong-which is huge in comparrison to him, then the body would be pushed back.


This is a whole other Wing Chun issue regarding the wooden man.... ie, they aint really hitting it, not full power the way a boxer unloads on mitts or a heavy bag.

If he delivered power and didn't move, where did the force go? The jong did not break... playing around leads to playing around results.

I defy anyone to find me footage of free play where someone is in that vertical attitude on one foot and not driven back.

[goju]

This is a whole other Wing Chun issue regarding the wooden man.... ie, they aint really hitting it, not full power the way a boxer unloads on mitts or a heavy bag.

If he delivered power and didn't move, where did the force go? The jong did not break... playing around leads to playing around results.

I defy anyone to find me footage of free play where someone is in that vertical attitude on one foot and not driven back.

you must have seen some bad wooden dummy ive seen william cheung, jerry poteet and gary lam unload on the dummy with force in vids and thats just to name a few

the force went into the dummy its not completely rigid it has give to it


and also it looks like yip man is going off to the blind side there for his kick would be aimed at the side of the knee and not head on and thats why it wouldnt drive him back


god im good:D

[Lokhopkuen]

I love this.

I always loved Jet Li's specialty in "Hero", "Death at 20 paces". His sphere was 20 paces!

[uki]

Not really missing my training as I nurse this busted hand.i wasn't aware that one cannot train with one busted hand... hmmmm... you are not very adaptable are you ray? :p

i can think of plenty of things to train with a broken hand... just the broken hand in itself is enough(or rather, should be) to cause one to focus on one handed sets... perhaps if you saw the use in forms you would be doing some of those aswell... stay away from closed fist sets. you can always head-butt your heavy bag ray... you know, if you realized that a fight doesn't always begin or end with a fist, you might see all the windows of opportunity here ray. :)

so go and TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN!!! no pain, no gain. :D

[Ray Pina]

I see those thing Uki, it's just that I differentiate between PRACTICING and DEVELOPING traits/characteristics by myself and training, where I go to a gym with actually people who are going to do things to me and my busted hand.

In all reality, I could still go train and work on certain things that don't include the hand. Just that I just came off a run of training like I've never trained before... I'm just not interested in driving an hour each way right now.

[Ray Pina]

you must have seen some bad wooden dummy ive seen william cheung, jerry poteet and gary lam unload on the dummy with force in vids and thats just to name a few

the force went into the dummy its not completely rigid it has give to it


and also it looks like yip man is going off to the blind side there for his kick would be aimed at the side of the knee and not head on and thats why it wouldnt drive him back


god im good:D

These people are pushing the jong. I've seen plenty of guys "unload" on the jong, shaking it back and forth. If you think these guys or yourself are really hitting it, you're a karate guy, go reverse punch a telephone pole full power and come back and report what happened to you.

All of this could be summed up as masturbation simply by asking, "To what effect?" Where are these powerfully aligned, technically and structurally correct Wing Chun fughters? They don't exists because they're training and martial upbringing does not equip them for real combat.

If you don't see the problem with their structure, pushing angle and approach, then God, you're not that good. You're missing a lot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ok, the cross kick being demonstrated is aimed at the knee. From close range, it can generate a great deal of force. It can also be used to break the opponent's structure, as illustrated by Yip Man. You cannot do a low sidekick at that range as you are in too tight. Is this the only example you have for this kick, or are you talking about using it under different circumstances?

I have demoed my cross kick by breaking 2 x 4 with very little effort, the cross kick'stomp is quite effective, no doubt.

[TenTigers]

If he delivered power and didn't move, where did the force go? The jong did not break... playing around leads to playing around results.
.

Ok, now you're arguing just to try to be right, and ignoring what you yourself already know.
The jong is not immovable, but spring loaded by being mounted on slats.

"Pushing" the jong is not simply pushing, but generating short force into the jong. When you can do this without being uprooted, you are on the way to developing the power for which it is designed to train.
The jong is not so much something to be wailed on like a heavybag. For that, people use...a heavybag. The jong is for developing alignment, position,angles, footwork, principles and techniques seen in the hand sets, as well as those not seen,and different quality of power generation than simply slugging away.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys, it's a freaking picture of Yip man POSING while doing a technique.
Its not as it is a still from a movie.
Of course there is no "force" it is a static pose.

[ittokaos]

The way I understood it, Yip Man had developed his skills to be completely reactive. Meaning, if there was no force he couldnt react to it. A lot of pictures of him were just that, pictures. Not stills of his training.

http://www.chwingchun.com.au/bruce.jpg

In this picture it seems as though he is either stopping Bruce's punch or doing a Lop sao drill. However, had this been something done with force Yip Man would have reacted to it. Were Bruce actually punching Yip Man would have had to turn to deflect as this position is not ideal for blocking.

[Ray Pina]

I happily admit I am wrong, in that my opinion on Wing Chun and its structure is vastly different then those here.

[Ray Pina]

Guys, it's a freaking picture of Yip man POSING while doing a technique.
Its not as it is a still from a movie.
Of course there is no "force" it is a static pose.

You should have said so earlier. Here we go:
[http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-JbNETKezmns/bruce_lees_master_yip_man_performing_wing_chun_rar e_footage/
Now I'm impressed.

[goju]

These people are pushing the jong. I've seen plenty of guys "unload" on the jong, shaking it back and forth. If you think these guys or yourself are really hitting it, you're a karate guy, go reverse punch a telephone pole full power and come back and report what happened to you.

All of this could be summed up as masturbation simply by asking, "To what effect?" Where are these powerfully aligned, technically and structurally correct Wing Chun fughters? They don't exists because they're training and martial upbringing does not equip them for real combat.

If you don't see the problem with their structure, pushing angle and approach, then God, you're not that good. You're missing a lot.

no they are palm striking it
just because you use both hands at the same time with a palm strike doesnt mean your pushing i believe your talking about the wing chun po pai and thats not a push

and again the wing chun dummy isnt as heavy or as solid as telephone poll so your comment is a bit odd not to mention most kung fu practioners tie bags filled with sand or other substances to the dummy so they can strike it with force:D

dude you really need to back down your ego usually i like to keep quiet and not be as outright critical of you as uki is but youre going over board now with your comment that chunners arent equip for "real fighting" or your slag on me for not being that good especially considering the comments ive heard from people on here about your own skill level :)

there is nothing wrong with the kick or the structure

[uki]

i can't imagine how ray can possibly be a good fighter if he hurts himself training on the heavy bag... just saying. :p

don't punch me now ray, i don't want you to hurt the other hand. :D

[goju]

lol!!!!!:D

[Ray Pina]

youre going over board now with your comment that chunners arent equip for "real fighting"

Where are they?



the comments ive heard from people on here about your own skill level :)
I've lost more fights then most of these people commenting have had... I went unbeaten in Throwdowns in NYC for three years. They were open, I posted invites here and at Bullshido where they were organized regularly. I attended everyone. I have footage of every victory by submission or KO.

While I was living in the states any traditional person not wanting to fight under sanctioned rules could have fought me there under Vale Tudo rules.

Professionals like coach Ross and a few others chastised me that I was beating chumps, and they were mostly right with the exception of one or two. So at 32 I started training MMA. I've had two fights in NJ and one down here. I'm 0-3. To become good, never mind competitive at anything, takes time. When I heal I'll see if I still got some fights in me.

When I meat this deadline I'll show you footage of me challenging Emin Boztepe when I was younger and dumber, and getting to test him and getting some film before it was shut down. Footage of me fighting Chinatown Wing Chun guys. Long Island Wing Chun guys.... if I make a comment its not in passing. It's because I feel that way from my experience.


Experience like how I broke my hand training (not hitting the heavy back. That re-injured it). Add it to the broken rib, the broken nose, the three broken wrists, the broken toe, the broken foot. Then calculate the four hour roundtrip commute by train from Long Island to Chinatown to learn the things I'm commenting on..... only to have someone like Uki knock me.

It's fitting. Shouldn't we all be voting on ninjettes or something?

[Ray Pina]

... shaking my head at you motherfu(kers.


Not only did I attend, fight in, and win, every throwdown that was held in NYC during those three years, I even organized my last one to give anyone a chance for last licks before I moved here. I won those too. And unlike master Yip Man .... I GOT FOOTAGE!!!! No very hard to rack up a highlight film against you kung fu and karate motherfu(kers. It's just true.

[uki]

ray... are you taking it all too personally?? if your footage is anything like the footage i found on you, LOL, god help us all. :p

[KC Elbows]

Professionals like coach Ross and a few others chastised me that I was beating chumps, and they were mostly right with the exception of one or two. So at 32 I started training MMA. I've had two fights in NJ and one down here. I'm 0-3. To become good, never mind competitive at anything, takes time. When I heal I'll see if I still got some fights in me.


Agree 100%. Where I don't agree is on the assumption that, seeing people apply a style, any style, that, because of a culture in the training of that style, does not produce people who really get the style, one can judge the style itself, is simply untrue.

I have yet to see a single video of one of the myriad kung fu fighters losing that reflects their style in any way in the loss, but more reflects the total lack of reality in their training. I find it productive to encourage realism more than argue style, since I only know the styles I know and cannot practically cover them all.

Once styles more broadly apply realistic training, then conclusions can be made as to the validity of styles. But honestly, in the past, even the guys who could fight well, just fought well from fighting and the aid of a couple moves from here and there, not from comprehensively training the various aspects of their style full contact until they understood it on their own terms, not what was told them by their teacher.

Many of the guys who left kung fu and went on to mma speak of kung fu as if they know its full contact attributes, when they did not train their kung fu as realistically as they train their mma(through no fault of their own, due to the culture of the kwoon). Do they address that in their conclusions of their styles? No. Would they say they knew mma so well even if they had trained it as unrealistically as they trained their kung fu? Apparently so.

Some, however, are better educated, but that group will always be the smallest.

[goju]

wow EMIN BOZTEPE!!!? you mean the biggest crack pot in wc circles

my gaaaaaaawd you must have been mad to do such a dangerous thing LOL

[uki]

forgive me ray... you are the man!!! *pumps fist* yeah buddy!!! woohoo!! :)

[goju]

Where are they?



I've lost more fights then most of these people commenting have had... I went unbeaten in Throwdowns in NYC for three years. They were open, I posted invites here and at Bullshido where they were organized regularly. I attended everyone. I have footage of every victory by submission or KO.

While I was living in the states any traditional person not wanting to fight under sanctioned rules could have fought me there under Vale Tudo rules.

Professionals like coach Ross and a few others chastised me that I was beating chumps, and they were mostly right with the exception of one or two. So at 32 I started training MMA. I've had two fights in NJ and one down here. I'm 0-3. To become good, never mind competitive at anything, takes time. When I heal I'll see if I still got some fights in me.

When I meat this deadline I'll show you footage of me challenging Emin Boztepe when I was younger and dumber, and getting to test him and getting some film before it was shut down. Footage of me fighting Chinatown Wing Chun guys. Long Island Wing Chun guys.... if I make a comment its not in passing. It's because I feel that way from my experience.


Experience like how I broke my hand training (not hitting the heavy back. That re-injured it). Add it to the broken rib, the broken nose, the three broken wrists, the broken toe, the broken foot. Then calculate the four hour roundtrip commute by train from Long Island to Chinatown to learn the things I'm commenting on..... only to have someone like Uki knock me.

It's fitting. Shouldn't we all be voting on ninjettes or something?

honestly i didnt even bother with reading most of this post of yours
after i saw your sherdog thread where you claimed you could ground and pound better than matt hughes i have dismissed you all together as a delusional nut job

[Ray Pina]

wow EMIN BOZTEPE!!!? you mean the biggest crack pot in wc circles

my gaaaaaaawd you must have been mad to do such a dangerous thing LOL

Well let me ask you a question... what have you done?

[uki]

i have dismissed you all together as a delusional nut jobwhat do you expect?? he lives on a volcanic coral reef where the locals have beaten him so bad he has to keep his eyes lowered to the ground, he gets beat in the matches he signs up for there(probably because if he wins the match he'll get beat up leaving the venue), he busts his hand working the heavy bag, and he has to come online to read posts like this... good god i'd be delusional too!!! :D

[David Jamieson]

Talking about fighting, who you fought etc etc takes a back seat to talking about training methods.

Talk of training methods helps others to add or remove or correct stuff in their own routines.

Talking about fighting is meaningless pap. lol, it's one sided, goes nowhere and breeds contempt and distrust.

I don't care how you fight. I would like to know training methods that have helped you succeed. I really don't care who you fought or how you did, that really doesn't do anything at all and really what does it contribute? Nothing. Your wins or losses are yours only to learn from.

It's the methods that are of interest and the results they are supposed to deliver.

What is it in the methods that is right or wrong?

Fighting isn't important. It's the end of the line in the training. Then teh cycle starts new.

Anyone can win. Or lose. It's not enough to simply play. There's lots of people swinging away at each other at b-b-q beatdowns. Those events mean nothing. They are the folly of young and egotistical minds.

However, what method was used to produce a result that prevailed? I'm interested in that. Otherwise your fight record means nothing to me. :)

[uki]

Talking about fighting, who you fought etc etc takes a back seat to talking about training methods.

Talk of training methods helps others to add or remove or correct stuff in their own routines.

Talking about fighting is meaningless pap. lol, it's one sided, goes nowhere and breeds contempt and distrust.

I don't care how you fight. I would like to know training methods that have helped you succeed. I really don't care who you fought or how you did, that really doesn't do anything at all and really what does it contribute? Nothing. Your wins or losses are yours only to learn from.

It's the methods that are of interest and the results they are supposed to deliver.

What is it in the methods that is right or wrong?

Fighting isn't important. It's the end of the line in the training. Then teh cycle starts new.

Anyone can win. Or lose. It's not enough to simply play. There's lots of people swinging away at each other at b-b-q beatdowns. Those events mean nothing. They are the folly of young and egotistical minds.

However, what method was used to produce a result that prevailed? I'm interested in that. Otherwise your fight record means nothing to me.at 0-3 i wouldn't even be attempting to tell people how to fight.

[Ray Pina]

and in the mean time, the guy 2:53 into my firs sig video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w), he's a wing chun guy who attempts the stomp kick. The fight last about 1.5 seconds.

This is just some scrap video a student sent me. I'll put something together real nice, a collage of wing chun beatings.

[Ray Pina]

T

I don't care how you fight. I would like to know training methods that have helped you succeed.

You're smart. That's the key.

Honestly, the most important thing was walking. Finding the structure. And two man cooperative push-hand like drills to learn how to wedge, sink or lift obstacle while continuing on to a target. Shielding drills. Having guys punch the shield with boxing gloves and learning how to absorb blows while maintaining god structure. That made me feel safe.

Even when I lose I haven't taken a beating. I've lost by submission twice and one decision. Only one crazy kick boxer, best fighter I ever fought, knocked me down. He just had a lot more IT than me.

Then I was blessed with students for a few years where I could create little drills where I could practice absorbing one-two shots. Then kicks this way and that. I got to control the training.

I learned a lot. Now its a matter of improving my BJJ, maintaining my conditioning, and taking that step mentally.

[uki]

hey ray, how do you fare against multiple opponents - better than online?? :p

[uki]

ray... 0-3 isn't succeeding... you're dumb.

[goju]

Well let me ask you a question... what have you done?

not fought the biggest crack pot in all the wing chun land:D

and i believe you just said you challenged him neither one of you fought so whats the point of bragging about it?

[goju]

and in the mean time, the guy 2:53 into my firs sig video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w), he's a wing chun guy who attempts the stomp kick. The fight last about 1.5 seconds.

This is just some scrap video a student sent me. I'll put something together real nice, a collage of wing chun beatings.

so? most of us here could beat up the average rec center martial arts goof ball why is this such an amazing accomplishment to you?

[uki]

so? most of us here could beat up the average rec center martial arts goof ball why is this such an amazing accomplishment to you?maybe because he took the time to do it?? i mean i could go down to the YMCA and whack few heads around too.

[Ray Pina]

honestly i didnt even bother with reading most of this post of yours
after i saw your sherdog thread where you claimed you could ground and pound better than matt hughes i have dismissed you all together as a delusional nut job

I was then. I was hanging out with too many Kung Fu guys at the time.

[goju]

i would be more impressed if he sparred with matt hughes and taught him to ground and pound like a man!!! LMAO!:D

[goju]

I was then. I was hanging out with too many Kung Fu guys at the time.

so you magically stopped being delusional because you switched to mma?

ooooookay:D

[Ray Pina]

i mean i could go down to the YMCA and whack few heads around too.

Could you? Could you go down to an athletic forum of young men in their late teens, early 20s and assert yourself?

[uki]

i would be more impressed if he sparred with matt hughes and taught him to ground and pound like a man!!! LMAO!wasn't that in at 2:36 on his video???

[Lucas]

geeez you guys are harsh.

well its apparent that Ray is passionate about his martial arts, sometimes makes blanket statements (hes not the only one though that does this, tma people do it all the time with mma and such), but at the same time he does make a lot of valid points.

you guys are like a pack of rabid wolves!

:D

[Ray Pina]

so you magically stopped being delusional because you switched to mma?

ooooookay:D
No. I started fighting semi-pro fighters and realized how unequipped I was to fight at that level. Or to comment on it.

[uki]

Could you? Could you go down to an athletic forum of young men in their late teens, early 20s and assert yourself?you truly are a tard dude... i am a stone mason that practices daily martial arts... i play with rocks, block, concrete, and bricks. when you bust your hand on the heavy bag, i smash my hand with rocks... when you are crying because you can't train with a stubbed pinky, i am striking joints with my fingers... grow up little boy. :)

[uki]

geeez you guys are harsh.

you guys are like a pack of rabid wolves! you looking for some infection too?? :p

[Lucas]

i am striking joints with my fingers :)

Surely, there is a lighter or a match involved.

;)

[Ray Pina]

hey ray, how do you fare against multiple opponents - better than online?? :p

We should hold our Throwdown down here. You can get free mushrooms in the cow field and ask my friends, the ones who originally jumped me with knives, pipes and guns.... not only was no one hurt (because I ran the hell away) but we're all friends.

[goju]

No. I started fighting semi-pro fighters and realized how unequipped I was to fight at that level. Or to comment on it.

actually from reading your sherdog posts and the ones you make here i dont see a change in the person you are

you still are delusional you just practice a different art now




rays another person infected with a strain of the t. neihoff syndrome:D

[uki]

We should hold our Throwdown down here. You can get free mushrooms in the cow field and ask my friends, the ones who originally jumped me with knives, pipes and guns.... not only was no one hurt (because I ran the hell away) but we're all friends.now what makes you believe i am stoopid enough to follow your ridiculous line of thinking? you can't even win a fight, let alone hit a heavy bag correctly and you want me to trust you on your own turf(well, not yours, your friends). one of the reasons i am alive to talk sooooo much poo is because i am smart and have lots of strategy(this is spelled wrong??) and wit at my disposal. :p

[Ray Pina]

you truly are a tard dude... i am a stone mason that practices daily martial arts... i play with rocks, block, concrete, and bricks. when you bust your hand on the heavy bag, i smash my hand with rocks... when you are crying because you can't train with a stubbed pinky, i am striking joints with my fingers... grow up little boy. :)

Am I supposed to assume that you can handle yourself because you're a drug-taking day laborer who fu(ks around by himself in the backyard?

[Lucas]

hey ray, if you get me down there you can beat my ass, as long as you dont screw my face up too bad. i could use a vacation on the beach :D

[uki]

Am I supposed to assume that you can handle yourself because you're a drug-taking day laborer who fu(ks around by himself in the backyard?blah blah blah... here's my skill...

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/mpics020.jpg

where's yours at?? :D

[Ray Pina]

now what makes you believe i am stoopid enough to follow your ridiculous line of thinking? you can't even win a fight, let alone hit a heavy bag correctly and you want me to trust you on your own turf(well, not yours, your friends). one of the reasons i am alive to talk sooooo much poo is because i am smart and have lots of strategy(this is spelled wrong??) and wit at my disposal. :p

I know this Throwdown is never going to happen. If guys like you and Gojo wanted to fight, you'd be fighting.

I am in Lancaster, Pa at least once a year though. I was just there in Aug. If your by Philly, hell, that's only two hours a way. I'd take that drive to knock you down and make you cry uncle on film. Maybe pat your daughter on her a$$.

[Ray Pina]

blah blah blah... here's my skill...

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/mossjuice/mpics020.jpg

where's yours at?? :D

That is nice.

[uki]

Maybe pat your daughter on her a$$.she's almost 5 a$$hole... now you have beat down sentence ****tard. :)

[goju]

I know this Throwdown is never going to happen. If guys like you and Gojo wanted to fight, you'd be fighting.

I am in Lancaster, Pa at least once a year though. I was just there in Aug. If your by Philly, hell, that's only two hours a way. I'd take that drive to knock you down and make you cry uncle on film. Maybe pat your daughter on her a$$.

im up for a scrap anytime one of the members from this board has already sparred with me and two others are supposed to when they are in town

:D

[IronWeasel]

hey ray, how do you fare against multiple opponents - better than online?? :p



Lol!


The funny of the day.:D

[bawang]

i find a lot of mma people disappointed in kung fu used to do wing chun

[goju]

if you cant use your style effectively its because you suck not your style sucks:D

[KC Elbows]

i find a lot of mma people disappointed in kung fu used to do wing chun

English has never been better utilized! LOL!!!!:D

[bawang]

if you cant use your style effectively its because you suck not your style sucks:D
i guess when you eat too many burritos and get diarrhea u think its a "coincidence"



if more people do super manly northern kung fu we wouldnt have all these problems and drama we have today. we all get wild bushy hair and wear dirty clothes and shout "SHAAAA" then throw wild haymakers at each other

*sheds single tear

[Lucas]

hey thats how i do it with my manly northern kungfu :)

[Ray Pina]

Its not easy....

OK, again so just so I know for future use, who thinks this is good structure and posture for fighting:
http://www.phoenixwingchun.com/bruce-lee-yip-man-b.jpg


This is how you're going to face off against a modern boxer? Stuff a shoot? Handle a Tai kick?

"Oh no, we just train that way we don't fight like that."

Right oh! Because you train like that you don't fight at all.

[bawang]

hey thats how i do it with my manly northern kungfu :)

yeah man look
which kung fu guy is more manly
http://www.freewebs.com/mingzay/Wushu_2a.jpg
http://pic.dbw.cn/0/01/17/28/1172878_489135.jpg
i think the answer is obvious

[uki]

you're still here ray?? i thought your pinky need to have it's band-aid changed?? :p

[Lucas]

his beard is more hardcore than the other guy. hell its so hardcore its spreading to his chest!

[bawang]

you're still here ray?? i thought your pinky need to have it's band-aid changed?? :p

why dont u like ray
is it because he makes u cry at night

[uki]

his beard is more hardcore than the other guy. hell its so hardcore its spreading to his chest!wushu people are faerie-looking butterflies with clipped wings. :)

[uki]

why dont u like ray
is it because he makes u cry at nightyour english makes me cry...

[Ray Pina]

hey ray, if you get me down there you can beat my ass, as long as you dont screw my face up too bad. i could use a vacation on the beach :D

I honestly have no desire to fight anybody here. You should come down just because it's awesome and cheep. And if you wanted, you could come train BJJ at the club I go to.

Flavio Behring is going to be here next week, they're holding a tournament in his honor.

[TenTigers]

Its not easy....

OK, again so just so I know for future use, who thinks this is good structure and posture for fighting:
http://www.phoenixwingchun.com/bruce-lee-yip-man-b.jpg


This is how you're going to face off against a modern boxer? Stuff a shoot? Handle a Tai kick?

"Oh no, we just train that way we don't fight like that."

Right oh! Because you train like that you don't fight at all.

um, Ray...?
it's a f**kin drill.

[uki]

I honestly have no desire to fight anybody here. LOL... no comment. :p

[Ray Pina]

if you cant use your style effectively its because you suck not your style sucks:D

There's a lot of Wing Chun people that can't use their style effectively. Its time to look at its training method, it's teacher. And in doing that I would suggest to look at its structure.

I honestly find WC people easy to back up and break their structure. Internal guys all know this about that style. They don't understand that keeping the back straight and keeping the back vertical are two different things.

Usually you have to keep your back straight but slightly leaning into your opponent like this: / Even while being backed up. You don't break your structure at your lower back and lean back, setting off a bunch of bad events.

Every WIng Chun guy I have fought has done that. There's that example I called out in my sig. Video. Just one example but classic. He's looking to touch hands and feel out a bridge. He greats overwhelming force with bad structure.... makes it WORSE picking up his foot.... and takes a beating until he taps to home.

[bawang]

um, Ray...?
it's a f**kin drill.

i think ray has a point that sticky hands drill is pretty esoteric. i did lots of kung fu drills but theyre all simple direct like dodging and blocking drills
im guesssing ray is pointing out wingchun has very little footwork training, very little conditioning "gong" in general

[TenTigers]

i think ray has a point that sticky hands drill is pretty esoteric. i did lots of kung fu drills but theyre all simple direct like dodging and blocking drills
im guesssing ray is pointing out wingchun has very little footwork training

Wing Chun has quite a bit of footwork training. However, if all you are exposed to is a smatterring of the system, then that's all you have to go by.
Let's look at some examples:
Ray has already provided us with the stationary front facing chi-sao.
However, he is not aware that there are stages to this drill, and the next stage is in a "fighting stance" and the stage after that involves footwork.
Later the partners engage and chi-sao, and later it enters into sparring.

Look at Lop-Sao/Lop-Da:
Many schools just have the standard version, and use it as a jumping off point for a few weeks before going into chi-sao.
In other schools, there are several variations involving hooks, uppercuts, traps, exchanges, running hand, biu-sao, etc.
This drill can also enter into chi-sao,
This drill can also work off of attacks, enter into chi-sao, etc.

Look at the Mook Yan Jong.
Some bang the jong, (get it on...) Some manuever around it, some flow like water.
Most after that, play the empty jong, then work the techniques hands-on with a partner. But for some...it's just a wooden dummy.

I have seen quite a few WC instructors. And, unfortunately, many of these drills are only taught in their most basic levels. Then people get the wrong idea and think, "they know it," and either start teaching...or put WC down.

oh, and btw-I'm not a WC practitioner, but I have studied it under a number of teachers. So how come I know this, and all these "experts" don't?
Sorry, but there are just way too many unqualified people out there teaching.

[goju]

There's a lot of Wing Chun people that can't use their style effectively. Its time to look at its training method, it's teacher. And in doing that I would suggest to look at its structure.

theres A LOT of people in every style who cant use their art effectively wing chun is not the only one

and it seems your understanding of the art is miniscule to begin with so why should anyone listen to you on how to make it work

[bawang]

hey man tentigers can u give examples of some wing chun footwork? i seriously have never met any wing chun guy that learned any footwork im curious. i never knew there was active footwork and dodging in wingchun. the wingchun ppl i met all had take footwork from boxing or sanda

for northern kung fu i learnned bending the waist, leaning, skipping, jumping, shuffling, shrinking, sinking , empty stance dodge ,kneeling dodge, etc theyre identical to western boxing. theres some unique things like high horse middle horse, circling, ambush step, but most stuf is similar

[goju]

i think ray doesnt realize wc people dont spar or fight like a chi sao excersise

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=azdSYXdzcWuRpYURkcEk&david-cheung-in-serbia-seminar-sparring

[TenTigers]

hey man tentigers can u give examples of some wing chun footwork? i seriously have never met any wing chun guy that learned any footwork im curious. i never knew there was active footwork and dodging in wingchun

for northern kung fu i learnned bending the waist, leaning, skipping, jumping, shuffling, shrinking, sinking , empty stance dodge ,kneeling dodge, etc theyre identical to western boxing

well, from the little I've been exposed to, we drilled foward and backward shuffles, side stepping, circling, skip-step, quick angle switch-step-similar to reverse triangles in Kali, pivoting, ducking, etc. pretty similar to what you're mentioning.

[TenTigers]

I really wish there were some Wing Chun guys answering these questions.
I'm not really qualified as I only have a little experience in WC.

[Ray Pina]

it seems your understanding of the art is miniscule to begin with so why should anyone listen to you on how to make it work

Why do you say that? I think I might have been introduced to Wing Chun by the same person that introduced Ten Tigers, unless I'm mistaking their identity.

Truth be told, I was already a better fighter then the disciples at the school when I walked in. Don't forget that I had the ages of 4 to 19 in Issin-Ryu. Already a second degree black belt.

Wing CHun is not complicated. I put in 5 years minimum at that school. I did the lion dancing. I might even did the lion dancing at Ten Tiger's wedding... again, if its who I think it is. I never really new that crew. I was hanging more with S. Mantis guys at the time.

The reason I left that school was a split occured between the two brother sifu.... one was heavy into forms and lion dancing, dragging things out. The other drilled and sparred in off hour training sessions. I trained with both groups and then when I was confronted and having to make a choice, I was also lucky enough to find Master Chan.

In related matters, the form lion dancing teacher insisted Kung Fu took time, 10 years. He only let his two disciples play with our, his brother's group, once, and that was it. That's when things got shut down... I've been around alot of Kung Fu schools. This is not unique. And because its not unique they're self conscious about it.

You say I'm not qualified? Why, because Uki says so? I trained Wing Chun with as much dedication that I trained anything else. The sticking and trapping I picked up saved a lot of time when I got to internal. Because my master also trained Wing Chun (in Hong Kong with Yip Man before getting kicked out) we had a common language and he was able to take my sticking and following and better direct it mechanically.

That's the truth. And again, if you didn't catch it the first time, I've probably have beaten about 10 to 12 Wing CHun guys in pure, free fighting. All quickly.

I think I'm qualified to comment. And frankly, its insulting to have to explain myself to a gojo ryu cretin:) ..... tell me my injury isn;t fostering my internal attitude of superiority?

[bawang]

well, from the little I've been exposed to, we drilled foward and backward shuffles, side stepping, circling, skip-step, quick angle switch-step-similar to reverse triangles in Kali, pivoting, ducking, etc. pretty similar to what you're mentioning.

man that souds pretty good decent chinese footwork i guess im bitter from seeing a lot of crappy people and they give me bad impressions, cuz ive never seen any wing chun guy do anything other than shuffling and sidestep badly

u do have to admit most people they never learn these thigns man. wing chun guys are a dime a dozen i never saw stuff u mentioned just lots and lots and lots and lots of chi sao

[Ray Pina]

i think ray doesnt realize wc people dont spar or fight like a chi sao excersise

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=azdSYXdzcWuRpYURkcEk&david-cheung-in-serbia-seminar-sparring

You are a retard!

That video makes my exact point dummy. The guy picks his leg up and winds up on his a$$.... and what was the other guy even doing? Nothing! THAT AINT SPARRING:rolleyes: Hell, if that's sparring I was just doing that with my dog on the beach.

[goju]

Why do you say that? I think I might have been introduced to Wing Chun by the same person that introduced Ten Tigers, unless I'm mistaking their identity.
your comments on the art show you have very little understanding of it it doesnt matter where you learned from


Truth be told, I was already a better fighter then the disciples at the school when I walked in. Don't forget that I had the ages of 4 to 19 in Issin-Ryu. Already a second degree black belt.
yes an this was during your so called delusional tma experience how are we supposed to know youre not just talking out of your hole?


Wing CHun is not complicated. I put in 5 years minimum at that school. I did the lion dancing. I might even did the lion dancing at Ten Tiger's wedding... again, if its who I think it is. I never really new that crew. I was hanging more with S. Mantis guys at the time.
great story bro ( rolls eyes)


The reason I left that school was a split occured between the two brother sifu.... one was heavy into forms and lion dancing, dragging things out. The other drilled and sparred in off hour training sessions. I trained with both groups and then when I was confronted and having to make a choice, I was also lucky enough to find Master Chan.
see previous comment


In related matters, the form lion dancing teacher insisted Kung Fu took time, 10 years. He only let his two disciples play with our, his brother's group, once, and that was it. That's when things got shut down... I've been around alot of Kung Fu schools. This is not unique. And because its not unique they're self conscious about it.
see previous comment


You say I'm not qualified? Why, because Uki says so? I trained Wing Chun with as much dedication that I trained anything else. The sticking and trapping I picked up saved a lot of time when I got to internal. Because my master also trained Wing Chun (in Hong Kong with Yip Man before getting kicked out) we had a common language and he was able to take my sticking and following and better direct it mechanically.

your comments on yip mans wooden dummy just shows your generally ignorance of the art and your deluional behaviour dont help much either :)


That's the truth. And again, if you didn't catch it the first time, I've probably have beaten about 10 to 12 Wing CHun guys in pure, free fighting. All quickly.
yeah im not impressed nor is anyone here theres no need to go swinging your d ick around on this forum because you beat up a bunch of tma goof balls

im sorry i burst your bubble


I think I'm qualified to comment. And frankly, its insulting to have to explain myself to a gojo ryu cretin:) ..... tell me my injury isn;t fostering my internal attitude of superiority?
i think the problem is you smoke to much ganja its ruined your brain:D

[Ray Pina]

your comments on the art show you have very little understanding of it it doesnt matter where you learned from

With whom did you train Wing Chun and for how long?

[TenTigers]

Ray, you may have me mistaken for someone else. I trained in WC with Alan Lam(Koo Sang line), and John Cresccione(Lee Moy Shan and William Chung line) and Mark Neidermayer (Hawkins Cheung, Duncan Leung,Augustine Fong lines) before meeting Sifu Mike.
Also, I never really trained in his WC much. It didn't jive with my previous experience, and I really preferred Hung Kuen.
Also, my ex and I had a private Taoist ceremony at a temple. If there was to be Lion Dancing, my own students would have done that. (I've had my school since '86)
But we might have met there a few times.

[goju]

With whom did you train Wing Chun and for how long?

i trained with a student of bart mann( no relation to yip man lol) for around a year
i only practice goju ryu and boxing now

i can safely say your rediculous comments are things you should have learned early on

questioning yip man structure and thinking wc gys fight like a chi sao match shows you didnt learn a d@mn thing


please go and ask your supposed teacher for your five years worth of your money back

[Ray Pina]

Would never dare. I appreciate everything he taught me.

[goju]

Would never dare. I appreciate everything he taught me.

apparently he didnt teach you they dont fight like a chi sao match did he? LOL

[Ray Pina]

If you guys were better rounded you could make the case that its just a drill like pummeling. I am better rounded so I'll continue the argument by myself:

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-practice-the-pummeling-drill-in-wrestling-273824/

Even in this video, the first thing they establish is the absolute necessity of a forward attitude. Of course, once you know how to pummel, the movement becomes 360 degrees.

[goju]

If you guys were better rounded you could make the case that its just a drill like pummeling. I am better rounded so I'll continue the argument by myself:

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-practice-the-pummeling-drill-in-wrestling-273824/

Even in this video, the first thing they establish is the absolute necessity of a forward attitude. Of course, once you know how to pummel, the movement becomes 360 degrees.

um no i hate to inform you that you are not better rounded than anyone here ray

put the kool aid down and back away slowly..:D

[Lucas]

meh, im pretty useless on the ground...

unless you have tits :D

to quote my new hero in the new issue of this magazine (go buy it if you dont have it you douchebags):

"I'm a stand-up man fighter"
~GGM Al Novak

[goju]

ray has marjiuana tits does that count LOL:D

[Lucas]

ray has marjiuana tits does that count LOL:D

hell no fvcker

;)

[Pork Chop]

I have seen quite a few WC instructors. And, unfortunately, many of these drills are only taught in their most basic levels. Then people get the wrong idea and think, "they know it," and either start teaching...or put WC down.


Remember that time I met with you and he-who-will-not-be-named at that gathering where I did a form and played a little lion with you guys? I think it was your friend/classmate's school opening....

The wing chun dude I met there was sweet. He moved like a mix between boxing and kali/fma triangle stepping. He actually turned his hip over & used drop step on his punches (so they looked like they had power) but he was still good at the positional dominance game.

I've hated most wing chun I've seen online and in person, but that guy was sportin' all the good stuff with none of the cr@p. I know those guys like to lay low but if there were more like him out there then I think it would be a totally different public conception of that style.

[TenTigers]

Remember that time I met with you and he-who-will-not-be-named at that gathering where I did a form and played a little lion with you guys? I think it was your friend/classmate's school opening....

The wing chun dude I met there was sweet. He moved like a mix between boxing and kali/fma triangle stepping. He actually turned his hip over & used drop step on his punches (so they looked like they had power) but he was still good at the positional dominance game.

I've hated most wing chun I've seen online and in person, but that guy was sportin' all the good stuff with none of the cr@p. I know those guys like to lay low but if there were more like him out there then I think it would be a totally different public conception of that style.
yeah, bro. There are alot, (ok, maybe not alot) more guys out there.

The thing is...honestly?......they can't stand most of the people on these internet forums, they can't stand the jerks in "NYC Mo-Lum," they can't stand the politics, and they couldn't care less what some guy on an internet forum believes or disbelieves. Heck, they barely tolerate ME. It's only cause we're friends, and they know I won't go away, that they let me hang out at all. (I know where they live)
Hey, you've met some of them. You know the deal.

[Hardwork108]

man that souds pretty good decent chinese footwork i guess im bitter from seeing a lot of crappy people and they give me bad impressions, cuz ive never seen any wing chun guy do anything other than shuffling and sidestep badly
Welcome to Mcdojo/kwoon land!


u do have to admit most people they never learn these thigns man. wing chun guys are a dime a dozen
Unfortunately, I agree with that statement. Wing Chun is a victim of commercialism more than any other kung fu style.


i never saw stuff u mentioned just lots and lots and lots and lots of chi sao
Even in chi sao training there should be foot work, contact strikes and take downs, among other things. The way I have been taught the chi sao exercise one is mobile when required. One can step in when striking an opening and the opponent can step to avoid the strike (but not by going back, as this is discouraged). It is all undertaken in a flowing manner.

You have side steps, angling steps, jamming steps and etc. as part of the foot work. There is no boxing style "bouncing".

HW108

[ittokaos]

I am not a chunner but I feel I need to add my 17 cents.

It is mostly structure and footwork in WC. That was the way I was taught but then again my sifu teaches all three forms(barehand) and turns pieces into drills with applications. We also do weapons to aid in the structure, power, and applications. All part of the gong training. A good chunk of the chi sao drills we did had footwork in them as well and the lop sao and pak sao drills. It was because my sifu added the Shuai(pushing, pulling, sweeps) and Na(joint locks) aspects of it in the drills so we could better understand them. Because of that I never really got why all these youtube guys were ever only doing the basic rolling.

I suppose if that is all you do, then yeah, you might get smacked around a bit.

[uki]

meh, im pretty useless on the ground...my ground game is great because i don't play by the rules... once i was pushing hands on my brick piers with this 230lb guy, we were playing to push off the bricks with whomever stepping off can attempt to pull the other guy off with him... we both went tumbling into a stack of bricks and decided to keep going into submission, LOL... i managed to grab a brick and drop it on his chest, right on the sternum... it was over then. :p

[Ray Pina]

um no i hate to inform you that you are not better rounded than anyone here ray
.:D

I would say I'm probably more well rounded than you 12-15 years Isshin-Ryu, 5 years Wing Chun, 3 years S. Mantis, 8 to 10 years E-Chuan and now 4 years BJJ.

[Ray Pina]

my ground game is great because i don't play by the rules... once i was pushing hands on my brick piers with this 230lb guy, we were playing to push off the bricks with whomever stepping off can attempt to pull the other guy off with him... we both went tumbling into a stack of bricks and decided to keep going into submission, LOL... i managed to grab a brick and drop it on his chest, right on the sternum... it was over then. :p

This is like saying you beat someone in arm wrestling by stomping on their foot with a boot. It's crafty, but like fu(king around by yourself in the backyard its no indication of skill.

[Ray Pina]

ray has marjiuana tits does that count LOL:D

I show ya mine. Now ya show me your gojo boy.

[Ray Pina]

The thing is...honestly?......they can't stand most of the people on these internet forums, they can't stand the jerks in "NYC Mo-Lum," they can't stand the politics, and they couldn't care less what some guy on an internet forum believes or disbelieves. .

This may be true. But there are also a lot of guys who get off doing friendly demonstrations or setting up the conditions to teach without being called out. If one makes claims in too open of a forum they will be called out.

I've seen wrestlers, Judo and BJJ guys move wonderfully, pull off fantastic movements... because they are confident enough and successful enough in what they do they are open about saying it is not fighting, that it's qualities for fighting. They don't claim or present themselves to be great or even good fighters because they haven't or don't fight.

Its amazing how well one can perform without the pressure of getting a beating.

Teaching is teaching. Demos are demos. "Hey, check out this possibility"... is exactly that. Fighting is fighting. Under fighting conditions, in my experience so far -- EVERY TIME -- Wing Chun's famous bridge is collapsed, followed by the breaking of their lower back structure with them leaning away from their technique collapsing in their face..... it's exactly what happened in the video Gojo posted when the attacker just lightly flung non-wing chun, non center line 30-percent power fooling around strikes. It's exactly what happens in that clip of a real fight with a Wing Chun guy who wanted to compare before I moved here. Unfortunately for him, it was not a demo, and he took a couple good shots to the head in front of his girlfriend who was filming for him.... bringing his girl and a camera, he must have been expecting a good day.

[Ray Pina]

My overall point, is any martial art will provide you health and an advantage of the uninitiated. Simply saying, keep your hands up and chin down helps. I'm sure Wing Chun's footwork is helping many people.

But there reaches a point where one has to ask, how much better is this thing making me, to what extent, what are the returns? Wing Chun's center line theory is very good.

Now, going step further, it's helpful to point out the weaknesses: it's structure. Its followers, in my experience, cave under pressure. First mentally, because real pressure is different than Chia Sau pressure, then physically by bending backwards at the waist.

If it makes everyone feel better one of E-Chuan's weaknesses is over confidence in the one shot kill and BJJ gives up its head too often and produces ****y followers who, by majority, also don't fight.

No style is prefect. No person is perfect. Get over it. Learn to look in the mirror, see faults, and not lose your cool.

[Frost]

my ground game is great because i don't play by the rules... once i was pushing hands on my brick piers with this 230lb guy, we were playing to push off the bricks with whomever stepping off can attempt to pull the other guy off with him... we both went tumbling into a stack of bricks and decided to keep going into submission, LOL... i managed to grab a brick and drop it on his chest, right on the sternum... it was over then. :p

and this is meant to prove you have a good ground game…… ok …:eek:

[Ray Pina]

and this is meant to prove you have a good ground game…… ok …:eek:

Isn't it absolutely ridiculous here sometimes?

Drop a brick on another bum and declare yourself skilled. Don't go to any of the local BJJ tournaments and even sign up to play with white belts to see, oh no... that would provide some reality and real feedback.

[Frost]

Isn't it absolutely ridiculous here sometimes?

Drop a brick on another bum and declare yourself skilled. Don't go to any of the local BJJ tournaments and even sign up to play with white belts to see, oh no... that would provide some reality and real feedback.

i just don’t get it, if you don't want to test your stuff fine don’t its your own personal choice, but don't come across as someone with skills and who can fight/grapple whatever or look down on those that do. (by the way this is not aimed at anyone person)

But if your goal is to be able to fight/defend yourself then why not compete? every major city in the UK and I bet the US as well has comps you can enter for grappling/stand up/ MMA so just go do it, stop talking about how its not real, or how your studies/family etc get in the way….. be honest if you don’t want to compete that’s fine don’t, but then don’t come across as the fountain of all knowledge and experience

[lkfmdc]

Isn't it absolutely ridiculous here sometimes?



learn to use ignore, you'll have a better time here

(thought it IS sad how they let the trolls run wild here)

[David Jamieson]

I dunno about you guys, but I think SR needs to drop a hot chick photo in here fast to scrub that ultra gay photo of ray out of our eyes. lol :D

SR!!! SR!!!! Help!!! You are our only hope!

[Ray Pina]

The old masters said to invest in loss.... that's why I don't see what the big deal is. The reason I got into BJJ is because after a year of training specifically to counter it I went to go fight MMA, got taken down and locked in side control. I couldn't escape because I didn't know how. I didn't know about the structure, shrimping, escaping the hip. All these basic things that the guys I was training with couldn't replicate, that we didn't even know we needed.

Another huge one: CONDITIONING.

A lot of Kung FU guys look down on it as an "external" thing. It's related to their idea of a one shot kill.

Go fight. The guys you meet there, unsurprisingly, like to fight and thus are good and take some pride in it. One shot won't do. And you'll see how exhausting it is.

I don't have issues with any body or style either, just mentalities and acceptance of things just because its the way its always been done or traditional.

These guys that talk smack don't bother me. They're always around somewhere no matter what you're doing. This just happens to be a subject I'm close to so I can tell... when a fighter boasts about biting, clawing eyes and dropping bricks on people, that's like a swords man talking about shooting people in the back.... there's no need. Then when people post footage of two tools fu(king around like two 5 year olds before white belt kid class and calls it sparring... and doesn't even realize it proves my point about Wing Chun being collapsed.... I know their level right away. I can tell they have no eye for martial arts no matter what they've trained and with who.

When you use the tool you see it different. This new MacBook is one thing to me (writing, e-mail, internet), quite something else to a graphic designer, web builder, film maker.

T

[David Jamieson]

The old masters said to invest in loss.... that's why I don't see what the big deal is. The reason I got into BJJ is because after a year of training specifically to counter it I went to go fight MMA, got taken down and locked in side control. I couldn't escape because I didn't know how. I didn't know about the structure, shrimping, escaping the hip. All these basic things that the guys I was training with couldn't replicate, that we didn't even know we needed.

Another huge one: CONDITIONING.

A lot of Kung FU guys look down on it as an "external" thing. It's related to their idea of a one shot kill.

Go fight. The guys you meet there, unsurprisingly, like to fight and thus are good and take some pride in it. One shot won't do. And you'll see how exhausting it is.

I don't have issues with any body or style either, just mentalities and acceptance of things just because its the way its always been done or traditional.

These guys that talk smack don't bother me. They're always around somewhere no matter what you're doing. This just happens to be a subject I'm close to so I can tell... when a fighter boasts about biting, clawing eyes and dropping bricks on people, that's like a swords man talking about shooting people in the back.... there's no need. Then when people post footage of two tools fu(king around like two 5 year olds before white belt kid class and calls it sparring... and doesn't even realize it proves my point about Wing Chun being collapsed.... I know their level right away. I can tell they have no eye for martial arts no matter what they've trained and with who.

When you use the tool you see it different. This new MacBook is one thing to me (writing, e-mail, internet), quite something else to a graphic designer, web builder, film maker.

T

Talk is cheap. Always has been, but there's really nothing else to do in a forum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I dunno about you guys, but I think SR needs to drop a hot chick photo in here fast to scrub that ultra gay photo of ray out of our eyes. lol :D

SR!!! SR!!!! Help!!! You are our only hope!

Ask and yee shall receive !

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008/12/70%20Super%20Sexy%20Babe%20on%20a%20Bed.jpg

[David Jamieson]

Good Job!

You're like a net ninja or something and your weapons are sweetness wrapped in tasty covered in candy!

everybody likes candy!

except for evil trolls!

[Lokhopkuen]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;974450]Ask and yee shall receive !

Wear do you git this sh!t:D

[David Jamieson]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;974450]Ask and yee shall receive !

Wear do you git this sh!t:D

? The internet was made for Porn. Surely you know this. :D

google image search "boobs", nuff said. :)

you'll getthis one in there! amazing!

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/41/huge_boobs.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;974450]Ask and yee shall receive !

Wear do you git this sh!t:D

What? you8 though all those closed door session's in Toronto's CHinatown were about just MA?
Nah !!
Real Kung fu is all about the babes !!!

http://www.killsometime.com/Pictures/images/1461.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

if those were real ( the one in pink) then her legs would have to be the size of tree trunks to support them. :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;974456]

? The internet was made for Porn. Surely you know this. :D

google image search "boobs", nuff said. :)

you'll getthis one in there! amazing!

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/41/huge_boobs.jpg

Where the hell did you find a picture of my ex-girlfriend?!:eek:

[TenTigers]

Hey Ray, weren't you in 'Point Break?" ;-)
When you speak of the back leaning structure of WC? Man, I hate that sh1t. Luckily for me, none of my teachers advocated that. They all made fun of those guys. Beginners often fall into that trap, because they don't understand structure yet.
Don't put down WC because you've met crappy WC guys. WC is one of the most well-known KF styles out there, and hense, it is rife with crappy teachers and players. Everyone wants to be Sifu.

[David Jamieson]

*pic of chick with massive assets*

Where the hell did you find a picture of my ex-girlfriend?!:eek:

which one is your girlfriend? lefty or righty? :D

[Lucas]

i think people that use the line "most kungfu people" or "kungfu guys dont..."

should read the latest issue of this magazine and refer to the 30 years in sanshou interview/article. it will shed some light on people who make blanket statements about CMA.

id bet the guy in that article thats being interviewed would probably whoop almost anyone on this boards ass in sanshou, with ease.

hes legit, trained traditionally, and a serious fighter.

go read it, and then remember there are literally THOUSANDS of guys like him.

sure there are loser kungfu guys out there, but why judge kungfu based on them??

why not look to the goods and realize that those losers are just that, losers. dont judge an entire martial tradition based on losers....thats silly

[Pork Chop]

Its amazing how well one can perform without the pressure of getting a beating.


That's the thing about the gatherings i was mentioning, they weren't all "compliant opponent demonstration", there were some opportunities to get tested.

The reason I brought up the dude that i mentioned is that he doesn't move at all like what we think of as "wing chun", but the techniques and principles he pulls out are definitely wing chun. Like he dropped the ugly back-weighted, squared up posture & the slappy-hands power generation for something a lot more functional. I believe one of the reasons he said was because he and his classmates spent a lot more time banging than they spent doin chi sao or dummy.

One of my old training partners; Jacques, wing chun guy for like 15 years turned muay thai. He was a blast to spar, coz he was still using wing chun strategies, but his delivery system was the muay thai techniques.

It's probably not too dissimilar for what you do with E-Chuan; ie take the essence of the art and do what you gotta to make it work, supplementing with other sources. This is a valid approach to any TCMA and it produces some interesting flavors of ring fighting that you don't see all the time.

As my muay thai coach says "We all train the same techniques, but we all fight different. You've gotta find out how to make it work for you." That includes adding techniques that aren't part of the basic curriculum. A lot of techniques that a lot of people use at my gym aren't part of the core curriculum that we usually train, but some folks like to use them. I've seen guys pull off non-spinning hook kicks, axe kicks, etc; or use strategies from other arts for setting up combos.

At that point, what style is it?
Muay thai, TKD, or something else?
Essentially it's that particular fighter's style and is whatever he wants to call it, or whoever he wants to credit for the inspiration.
Real fighters tend to take what they can use and not worry about hanging a label on it.

[Ray Pina]

http://www.killsometime.com/Pictures/images/1461.jpg

Now that's a good one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now that's a good one.

Makes you glad God created women, doesn't it?
:D

[Ray Pina]

PorkChop and Lucas, well said, and you're both right. I shouldn't make blanket statements, though I did point out that it is merely my experience... the best Wing Chun guy I ever felt personally was Emin Boztepe by the way. Regardless of his reputation he had power, knew how to sink... probably because he has some wrestling experience I believe.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

At that point, what style is it?
Muay thai, TKD, or something else?
Essentially it's that particular fighter's style and is whatever he wants to call it, or whoever he wants to credit for the inspiration.
Real fighters tend to take what they can use and not worry about hanging a label on it.

Interesting point. Often times while training I am asked what I know or have studied. I usually say something like a mix of things but always say that Kung Fu is my base art. When I branched out and cross trained in boxing and Muay Thai, they did not replace Kung Fu for me they simply made my Kung Fu better. I find myself mixing things from Muay Thai such as switch kicks and knees with side kicks, ax kicks, and hook kicks from Kung Fu.

There are things from Kung Fu I no longer or rarely use anymore such as bridging. While it can be effective, I prefer to simply punch someone in the face. That does not mean that bridging is useless or does not work, but I prefer boxing techniques to this. It works better for me, and in the end, that is what makes a style great.

A style does not make a fighter great. I have sparred guys in Muay Thai and boxing who suck because they as fighters or athletes suck. It certainly does not mean Muay Thai and boxing suck, just that they do not have what it takes to be a good fighter. Often times we get caught up in so called styles that produce good fighters and lump everyone who trains in those arts as good fighters. This is simply not the case.

It would be ingorant to lump all Kung Fu practioners into a category of form fairy, overweight, Dragonball Z loving LARPers, just as it is equally ignorant to suggest all Muay Thai and boxing practioners are hard ass, iron jawed fighters like Buakaw Por. Pramu or Manny Pacquiao.

That being said, I truly believe Muay Thai and boxing create better fighters due to their training methods, which, most of the time, are superior to many Kung Fu styles. But I believe Kung Fu has techniques and training methods that can be of great use do any martial artist, and am quite thankful I learned Kung Fu from the teachers that I did. In a nutshell, training methods are most important and natural ability and athleticism must exist in a person as well to truly benefit from the art.

[Lucas]

we have all done it though ray. every single one of us at one time or another. so as not to be a hypocrite, its good to point that out.

i feel where you are coming from and i understand where you are at in your mission, which i fully respect and look forward to seeing your first mma win on vid.

imo its a full picture, we need guys doing what you are doing, we need guys running the old routes but cleaning them out, we need guys paving new paths, we need guys ragging on everyone about what they are doing just to make everyone re-evaluate and question their position.

ive always looked at is a one big disfunctional family of people who love to fight with each other; Martial Artists.

every family has their goofs, their a-holes, their idiots and their black sheep.

thats us.....lol

[Pork Chop]

PorkChop and Lucas, well said, and you're both right. I shouldn't make blanket statements, though I did point out that it is merely my experience... the best Wing Chun guy I ever felt personally was Emin Boztepe by the way. Regardless of his reputation he had power, knew how to sink... probably because he has some wrestling experience I believe.

Dude, I, of all people, never thought I'd be defending wing chun. :p

[goju]

I would say I'm probably more well rounded than you 12-15 years Isshin-Ryu, 5 years Wing Chun, 3 years S. Mantis, 8 to 10 years E-Chuan and now 4 years BJJ.
you can learn as many different styles as you want from what people have said about your videos youre not very well skilled:D

[goju]

I show ya mine. Now ya show me your gojo boy.

um....... this just went into some very strange territory.....:eek:

[Ray Pina]

while training I am asked what I know or have studied. I usually say something like a mix of things but always say that Kung Fu is my base art. .

Me too, but it's embarrassing.

[uki]

Me too, but it's embarrassing.getting embarrassed means you took something personally... one time i was drunk(when i was way younger in years) and i punched the bedroom door off the hinges and i broke my hand, not only that, as i sat drinking my beer afterwards, the door fell over and knocked me out... i woke up with a bump on my head, a broken hand, hungover, and had a door on top of me - my point: we all look like an a$$ now and again. :p

[Ray Pina]

In reality, I always try to be mindful of what I learned of E-Chuan, and I don't really consider it Kung Fu. But people don't know what E-Chuan is and it aint karate and it aint boxing but its Chinese so I say Kung Fu.

[TenTigers]

In reality, I always try to be mindful of what I learned of E-Chuan, and I don't really consider it Kung Fu. But people don't know what E-Chuan is and it aint karate and it aint boxing but its Chinese so I say Kung Fu.
um Ray? That's really what defines Kung-Fu....being Chinese.
So, yeah. good choice.

[Ray Pina]

you can learn as many different styles as you want from what people have said about your videos youre not very well skilled:D


I got two videos below this post. Check them out and then you can say for yourself.

[goju]

I got two videos below this post. Check them out and then you can say for yourself.

youtube doesnt work on my computer:D
i doubt im missing much

[uki]

In reality, I always try to be mindful of what I learned of E-Chuan, and I don't really consider it Kung Fu. But people don't know what E-Chuan is and it aint karate and it aint boxing but its Chinese so I say Kung Fu.lol... this is about the most idiotic statement i have read yet from you ray... good job. well done. i have to ask... is E-chuan like E-bay?? is there an online martial arts school that you also go to?? do you hurt yourself taking online martial arts classes?? no wonder average people are clueless when it comes to martial arts, they get information like this. :p

youtube doesnt work on my computer.well that sucks now doesn't it...


i doubt im missing muchafter i clicked his first horror of a video, i am apprehensive of watching anymore either. :D

[Ray Pina]

How's your daughter doing?

[Yum Cha]

How's your daughter doing?

class Ray, real class...

[uki]

class Ray, real class...LOL! i smirked at this one... it is classic though, but even in this he has failed miserably... ray, you better stop before you REALLY make an a$$ out of yourself. :p

[bawang]

i take drugs because i feel empty inside
wow nice
what happened to ur daughter? did u go all michael jackson on her?

////

[uki]

wow nice
what happened to ur daughter? did u go all michael jackson on her?
michael jackson is dead, so no i did not die on her
:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

How's your daughter doing?

what happened to ur daughter? did u go all michael jackson on her?
Ah, gentlemen, I am not sure what this is about but I suggest you choose a different line of posting.
NOW.
And an apology would be a good course of action.

[IronWeasel]

Ah, gentlemen, I am not sure what this is about but I suggest you choose a different line of posting.
NOW.
And an apology would be a good course of action.


I'll start:

I apologize for reading this thread.:)

[uki]

And an apology would be a good course of action.i highly doubt it would be sincere anyway so i have to ask them not to waste their face. :)

[Ray Pina]

Sorry. Though don't turn martial discussions into personal attacks... especially if you have collateral damage. Everyone's got something. You want to dig for mine, yours are very clear.

[uki]

Sorry. Though don't turn martial discussions into personal attacks... especially if you have collateral damage. Everyone's got something. You want to dig for mine, yours are very clear.LOL... you don't get it do you ray - i could care less what you say about my daughter, you know why?? i don't give sh!t, not one... it's just a nice excuse to further perpetuate this badass persona i have come to enjoy very much. :p

don't you remember my advice ray?? don't take anything personally. you know this applies to your martial arts also... when someone attempts to hit you, don't accept it - merge with it, neutralize it. ray ray ray... you have so very much more to learn my son. :D:p

[MasterKiller]

don't you remember my advice ray?? don't take anything personally. you know this applies to your martial arts also... when someone attempts to hit you, don't accept it - merge with it, neutralize it. ray ray ray... you have so very much more to learn my son. :D:p


So says the man that dropped an e-challenge to me and even posted his address. ROFL!!!


hc1 box 98 bartonsville, pa 18321... 4th driveway on the right tough guy

[Ray Pina]

don't you remember my advice ray?? don't take anything personally. you know this applies to your martial arts also... when someone attempts to hit you, don't accept it - merge with it, neutralize it. ray ray ray... you have so very much more to learn my son. :D:p

Here's the thing, you attack me personally. How else should I take it. It's gone beyond busting on my martial arts, my personal character and appearance has even been attacked.

Many times you just come out and say it, personally attacking me. But sometimes you slip it into question forms, asking is E-Chuan like E-bay.

Well, I can ask questions too... do you think your daughter's hand is the result of your drug taking? I ask because I met someone and I want to have kids and its a legit concern. Truly.

Who's to weigh what one values? I have no wife or family, I'm married too martial arts. You insult me and where I've trained, it's personal!

[Ray Pina]

And its just the point. I aint worried about my ability or looks... I noticed Gojo didn't post a pic after accusing me of having men breasts and forcing myself to reveal the handsome devil that I am.

[goju]

I'm married too martial arts.

i think martial arts want a divorce:D

[goju]

And its just the point. I aint worried about my ability or looks... I noticed Gojo didn't post a pic after accusing me of having men breasts and forcing myself to reveal the handsome devil that I am.

ive posted a pic of me before throwing a side kick and another of my hands from makiwara conditioning and another of me doing the splits:D

however if youre looking for a shirtless pic of me im sorry to dissapoint you ray i like womanz and i dont plan of driving down both sides of the street anytime soon if ya know what i mean

now im sure this frustrates you so perhaps you can take your agression out on that foot long 10 pound bag in your photo (hopefully you wont break your hand on it this time):D

[uki]

Here's the thing, you attack me personally. How else should I take it. It's gone beyond busting on my martial arts, my personal character and appearance has even been attacked. LOL... you're just a goofy guy... sooo easy to get worked up. no offense buddy. :)


Many times you just come out and say it, personally attacking me. But sometimes you slip it into question forms, asking is E-Chuan like E-bay.yeah... so are they anything similar??


Well, I can ask questions too... do you think your daughter's hand is the result of your drug taking? yeah... it's this wonderful drug called sex, ever had it?? BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


I ask because I met someone and I want to have kids and its a legit concern. Truly.is this someone human?? better yet, is it a female species of some kind?


Who's to weigh what one values? I have no wife or family, I'm married too martial arts. You insult me and where I've trained, it's personal!*sobbing*... awwwww man.... *blows nose on hand* here... lets shake hands and make up... *holds out hand* :D


And its just the point. I aint worried about my ability or looks... I noticed Gojo didn't post a pic after accusing me of having men breasts and forcing myself to reveal the handsome devil that I am.LMAO!!!! yes ray you are pretty cute. :p


i think martial arts want a divorce.i hope ray doesn't get hit up with alimony payments. :D


now im sure this frustrates you so perhaps you can take your agression out on that foot long 10 pound bag in your photo (hopefully you wont break your hand on it this time)ouch... i bet ray hurt himself just reading this post!!



So says the man that dropped an e-challenge to me and even posted his address. ROFL!!!lol... but yer a mod and you still haven't paid a visit yet. :p

[Dragonzbane76]

ray i'm going to have to say, IT'S THE INTERNET, don't take things so personally. You do realize that you will probably never meet these people on here and you have nothing to prove to them right, because why? IT'S THE INTERNET.

[Pork Chop]

Ray
After the Shaolin vs MT thread it's hard to take Goju seriously and I don't think I've ever taken uki seriously so don't stress it.
So they refuse to accept that the caliber of the amateur/semi-pro fighters you've lost to is higher than themselves; and they also refuse to admit that the caliber of the hobbyist fighters you've destroyed is also even probably a level above their's.... so what?
The guys that are well known to be part of successful programs have all recognized your accomplishments & given you kudos, so take some solace in that. you can't win everyone over, they're will always be some naysayers. these days it's popular theory that the more naysayers you have, the more successful you probably are.

Kinda reminds me of the dude I was dealing with at the mma gym.
I'd spent hours trying to help him at the muay thai gym.
We were working clinch and his mma mind told him that since he'd been grappling 6 whole months that the clinch is where he should dominate.
He kept "cheating" - stepping up the level of intensity of the drill just to sneak in a "win" (not to mention hurt my neck), and I kept going to the same technique to get out of it - though not the technique we were supposed to be using (which wasn't working so well against his little "cheat").
Apparently that made him lose respect for me.
So when I go to the mma gym and want to try a bjj class because I "want a change of pace" he starts going off on my sh!tty amateur record and how I haven't won a fight.
Practically turned into an argument.
He gets assigned the task of teaching me positioning on the ground and instead wants to "position roll".
He starts going for subs right off the bat.
I block a few, he gets frustrated, then after getting him in side control a few times & turtle position once, we reset in his guard and he proceeds to kick me in the face (I guess going for an armbar or something?).

EDIT: It really bothered me for a while that he'd talked so much cr@p about my record and tried to injure me in the class situation as well; but some friends helped me realize that he was intimidated more than anything. He'd been passed over for a belt promotion already and he wasn't very good. but he looked down on me because of my shape, figuring that he should be able to beat me in anything. so he was extra upset when he couldn't dominate me at anything, even the main style he trained in.

Long story short, some folks are just d!cks.
You can either take what they say to heart or just recognize what they are and give their opinions the credibility that they deserve (none).

[uki]

IT'S THE INTERNET.now way dude... *smacks forehead* duh man... whoa, brain****... hey ray... it's the internet man. *makes peace sign with one middle finger* :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a thread for personal attacks on the off Topic forum, please direct your verbal diarrhea there.

[uki]

There is a thread for personal attacks on the off Topic forum, please direct your verbal diarrhea there.due to the nature of dirrahea, one usually never makes it to the toilet in time. :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

*makes peace sign with one middle finger*

I don't recall giving you permission to use my patented avatar.:D

[uki]

I don't recall giving you permission to use my patented avatar.oops... i don't acknowledge permission if i don't ask for it. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Kinda reminds me of the dude I was dealing with at the mma gym.
I'd spent hours trying to help him at the muay thai gym.
We were working clinch and his mma mind told him that since he'd been grappling 6 whole months that the clinch is where he should dominate.
He kept "cheating" - stepping up the level of intensity of the drill just to sneak in a "win" (not to mention hurt my neck), and I kept going to the same technique to get out of it - though not the technique we were supposed to be using (which wasn't working so well against his little "cheat").
Apparently that made him lose respect for me.
So when I go to the mma gym and want to try a bjj class because I "want a change of pace" he starts going off on my sh!tty amateur record and how I haven't won a fight.
Practically turned into an argument.
He gets assigned the task of teaching me positioning on the ground and instead wants to "position roll".
He starts going for subs right off the bat.
I block a few, he gets frustrated, then after getting him in side control a few times & turtle position once, we reset in his guard and he proceeds to kick me in the face (I guess going for an armbar or something?).

EDIT: It really bothered me for a while that he'd talked so much cr@p about my record and tried to injure me in the class situation as well; but some friends helped me realize that he was intimidated more than anything. He'd been passed over for a belt promotion already and he wasn't very good. but he looked down on me because of my shape, figuring that he should be able to beat me in anything. so he was extra upset when he couldn't dominate me at anything, even the main style he trained in.

Long story short, some folks are just d!cks.
You can either take what they say to heart or just recognize what they are and give their opinions the credibility that they deserve (none).

There are d!cks in life, I agree. The one positive thing in regards to martial arts is that arts that make their practioners test themselves through sparring, rolling, or competition, give these folks a first hand look at exactly how good they are. In my opinion this leads to less egotistical brashness and delusions and more application and improvement.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

oops... i don't acknowledge permission if i don't ask for it. :)

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly, I'm suing you for the poles in your backyard, as well as your mushroom stash.:p

[goju]

RayAfter the Shaolin vs MT thread it's hard to take Goju seriously and I don't think I've ever taken uki seriously so don't stress it.
wow i can assure you myself and uki are severely butt hurt that some anonymous forum bum like everyone else here doesnt think highly of us :)


So they refuse to accept that the caliber of the amateur/semi-pro fighters you've lost to is higher than themselves; and they also refuse to admit that the caliber of the hobbyist fighters you've destroyed is also even probably a level above their's.... so what?

oh really? according to who? thats a very bold statement that ray or any of these guys hes fought are better martial artists than myself or anyone else on the board



Kinda reminds me of the dude I was dealing with at the mma gym.
I'd spent hours trying to help him at the muay thai gym.
We were working clinch and his mma mind told him that since he'd been grappling 6 whole months that the clinch is where he should dominate.
He kept "cheating" - stepping up the level of intensity of the drill just to sneak in a "win" (not to mention hurt my neck), and I kept going to the same technique to get out of it - though not the technique we were supposed to be using (which wasn't working so well against his little "cheat").
Apparently that made him lose respect for me.
So when I go to the mma gym and want to try a bjj class because I "want a change of pace" he starts going off on my sh!tty amateur record and how I haven't won a fight.
Practically turned into an argument.
He gets assigned the task of teaching me positioning on the ground and instead wants to "position roll".
He starts going for subs right off the bat.
I block a few, he gets frustrated, then after getting him in side control a few times & turtle position once, we reset in his guard and he proceeds to kick me in the face (I guess going for an armbar or something?).

EDIT: It really bothered me for a while that he'd talked so much cr@p about my record and tried to injure me in the class situation as well; but some friends helped me realize that he was intimidated more than anything. He'd been passed over for a belt promotion already and he wasn't very good. but he looked down on me because of my shape, figuring that he should be able to beat me in anything. so he was extra upset when he couldn't dominate me at anything, even the main style he trained in.

Long story short, some folks are just d!cks.
You can either take what they say to heart or just recognize what they are and give their opinions the credibility that they deserve (none).
:D

while that long winded story was indeed entertaining and gave you an oppurtunity to brag about yourself( very humble of you btw) its has nothing to do with this discussion

i dont think im d!ck im just tired of guys like ray that populate martial art forums walking around on here swinging their c ock about because theyve had a few fights

i think quite a few of you have a very giant ego and you think youre entitlted to it simply because youve fought a few times

in other words youre low level fighters with ufc champion size egos:D

and it makes me wonder if the only reason some of you fought to begin with is so you could sit online when your middle aged and brag to people that you "like one this kickboxing match and stuff once"


if my issue with rampant egomania and e-p@nis measuring makes me a jerk in the end than im fine with that

[Yum Cha]

It really bothered me for a while that he'd talked so much cr@p about my record and tried to injure me in the class situation as well; but some friends helped me realize that he was intimidated more than anything. He'd been passed over for a belt promotion already and he wasn't very good. but he looked down on me because of my shape, figuring that he should be able to beat me in anything. so he was extra upset when he couldn't dominate me at anything, even the main style he trained in.

Long story short, some folks are just d!cks.
You can either take what they say to heart or just recognize what they are and give their opinions the credibility that they deserve (none).


So seldomly do we ever get any true wisdom on this board. (applause)

[Ray Pina]

i think martial arts want a divorce:D

That's good.

[Pork Chop]

exhibit 1 (aka "I don't care what you anonymous people say"):

wow i can assure you myself and uki are severely butt hurt that some anonymous forum bum like everyone else here doesnt think highly of us
exhibit 2 (aka "i'm not the one with the big ego"):

i dont think im d!ck im just tired of guys like ray that populate martial art forums walking around on here swinging their c ock about because theyve had a few fights
exhibit 3 (aka "you're the ones with the big egos"):

i think quite a few of you have a very giant ego and you think youre entitlted to it simply because youve fought a few times
exhibit 4 (aka "what i do is okay because i'm not the one with the ego"):

if my issue with rampant egomania and e-p@nis measuring makes me a jerk in the end than im fine with that

summed up by the coup de grace.... (aka "my ego is but-hurt")

oh really? according to who? thats a very bold statement that ray or any of these guys hes fought are better martial artists than myself or anyone else on the board

o the ironing...

[goju]

exhibit 1 (aka "I don't care what you anonymous people say"):

exhibit 2 (aka "i'm not the one with the big ego"):

exhibit 3 (aka "you're the ones with the big egos"):

exhibit 4 (aka "what i do is okay because i'm not the one with the ego"):


summed up by the coup de grace.... (aka "my ego is but-hurt")


o the ironing...
so basiclally you deflected with pretty much i know youa re but what am i?

brilliant
:D

[Pork Chop]

so basiclally you deflected with pretty much i know youa re but what am i?

brilliant
:D

i play to the level of my competition :D

[goju]

i play to the level of my competition :D
no you didnt know how to respond because im pretty much telling it like it is:D

[Pork Chop]

i guess you're calling it as it is...
somewhere...
like on whichever planet where they consider "I couldn't out clinch a noob" and "I quit bjj because i got kicked in the face" as bragging...
:rolleyes:

keep drinking that koolaide :D

[goju]

"It really bothered me for a while that he'd talked so much cr@p about my record and tried to injure me in the class situation as well; but some friends helped me realize that he was intimidated more than anything. He'd been passed over for a belt promotion already and he wasn't very good. but he looked down on me because of my shape, figuring that he should be able to beat me in anything. so he was extra upset when he couldn't dominate me at anything, even the main style he trained in."


so the point of your story about this guy not being able to beat you was what exactly? and what relevance did it have in this thread?:D

and of course youre statement on who you dont take seriously didnt help much:D

are there any others you dont like while we are at it oh wise porkchop sensei

[uki]

wow i can assure you myself and uki are severely butt hurt that some anonymous forum bum like everyone else here doesnt think highly of us.i am devasted... i think i will go hang myself now. :o

[goju]

i am devasted... i think i will go hang myself now. :o
lol:D:D:D:D:D!!!!!

[Pork Chop]

so the point of your story about this guy not being able to beat you was what exactly? and what relevance did it have in this thread?:D

The point was; anonymous or not, some people are going to give you a hard time.
Often these people are jealous of your skill or just mad at their own inadequacies.

The advice I would like to give Ray is not to let other people's hang ups get to you; because ultimately, they don't matter.

And in case you weren't paying attention, the post was directed to Ray to begin with, as I've already related details of the story to him in other threads. So I'm sorry if my relation of the story doesn't meet your strict guidelines on humility. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't think someone who waves the flag of "don't get upset by anonymous people" would get so blatantly flustered at an offhand comment about your lack of skill.

I also don't think you would be so quick to shoot down Ray's ego if it weren't rubbing your own ego the wrong way to begin with.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of us know each other in real life.
I've met a lot of the regular posters in person; heck, I've even seen Ray in person (at Wong Fei Hung tournament a while back, he and BT were talking).
A lot of us aren't anonymous to each other and some even run in the same circles.

The guy posts his full name on a forum & fights amateur.
In other words, he's an easy guy to find if you're looking for him.
It also means he's down to fight anybody who shows up to fight that day.
If you've got such an issue with his views on his martial arts & his skills (or lack thereof), show up to an amateur fight and set him straight.
If you even showed up to his gym in person or contacted him privately for offline discussion, I'm sure you guys would reach some sort of understanding.

But if you want me to be on your nutz & hi-5 you for being soooo clever, slagging a dude who puts himself out there (a dude who's a good sounding board & discussion partner) while you hide behind a screen name; sorry but it ain't gonna happen. Especially not if you're trying to put him in his place because his ego makes you feel uncomfortable.

[goju]

The point was; anonymous or not, some people are going to give you a hard time.
Often these people are jealous of your skill or just mad at their own inadequacies.
or perhaps they are just bored with an egomaniacal wind bag :)


The advice I would like to give Ray is not to let other people's hang ups get to you; because ultimately, they don't matter.
why woudl you assume people are throwing their hang ups on ray, No one here has outright started picking on the poor guy



I wouldn't think someone who waves the flag of "don't get upset by anonymous people" would get so blatantly flustered at an offhand comment about your lack of skill.
how is me typing a short response to your comment being flustered? i just found your assumption to be pretty amusing


I also don't think you would be so quick to shoot down Ray's ego if it weren't rubbing your own ego the wrong way to begin with.
im far from the only one to be critical of rays behaviour nor have i exhibited and inflated ego anywhere on here


The truth of the matter is that a lot of us know each other in real life.
I've met a lot of the regular posters in person; heck, I've even seen Ray in person (at Wong Fei Hung tournament a while back, he and BT were talking).
A lot of us aren't anonymous to each other and some even run in the same circles.
good for you guys


The guy posts his full name on a forum & fights amateur.
In other words, he's an easy guy to find if you're looking for him.
It also means he's down to fight anybody who shows up to fight that day.
If you've got such an issue with his views on his martial arts & his skills (or lack thereof), show up to an amateur fight and set him straight.
If you even showed up to his gym in person or contacted him privately for offline
discussion, I'm sure you guys would reach some sort of understanding.

so?ive posted my full info and picture on here as well. Ive sparred one gentleman who posts here and supposedly two others are too come down when they are in town

its not really a big deal or takes "big balls" to post your info and be willing to spar other forum regulars because for one nobody is gonna come down to see you very often and two the ones who do come and pay you a visit usually will be the friendly



But if you want me to be on your nutz & hi-5 you for being soooo clever, slagging a dude who puts himself out there (a dude who's a good sounding board & discussion partner) while you hide behind a screen name; sorry but it ain't gonna happen. Especially not if you're trying to put him in his place because his ego makes you feel uncomfortable.
sorry again but your assumptions are wrong again ive never hid behind my computer or see any reason too:D

actually his ego just gives me a headache

[TenTigers]

The advice I would like to give Ray is not to let other people's hang ups get to you; because ultimately, they don't matter.

"Never let other people's weakness undermine the building of your own personal monument"
-Dr. Laura Schlesinger

[Frost]

Ray
After the Shaolin vs MT thread it's hard to take Goju seriously and I don't think I've ever taken uki seriously so don't stress it.
So they refuse to accept that the caliber of the amateur/semi-pro fighters you've lost to is higher than themselves; and they also refuse to admit that the caliber of the hobbyist fighters you've destroyed is also even probably a level above their's.... so what?
The guys that are well known to be part of successful programs have all recognized your accomplishments & given you kudos, so take some solace in that. you can't win everyone over, they're will always be some naysayers. these days it's popular theory that the more naysayers you have, the more successful you probably are.

Kinda reminds me of the dude I was dealing with at the mma gym.
I'd spent hours trying to help him at the muay thai gym.
We were working clinch and his mma mind told him that since he'd been grappling 6 whole months that the clinch is where he should dominate.
He kept "cheating" - stepping up the level of intensity of the drill just to sneak in a "win" (not to mention hurt my neck), and I kept going to the same technique to get out of it - though not the technique we were supposed to be using (which wasn't working so well against his little "cheat").
Apparently that made him lose respect for me.
So when I go to the mma gym and want to try a bjj class because I "want a change of pace" he starts going off on my sh!tty amateur record and how I haven't won a fight.
Practically turned into an argument.
He gets assigned the task of teaching me positioning on the ground and instead wants to "position roll".
He starts going for subs right off the bat.
I block a few, he gets frustrated, then after getting him in side control a few times & turtle position once, we reset in his guard and he proceeds to kick me in the face (I guess going for an armbar or something?).

EDIT: It really bothered me for a while that he'd talked so much cr@p about my record and tried to injure me in the class situation as well; but some friends helped me realize that he was intimidated more than anything. He'd been passed over for a belt promotion already and he wasn't very good. but he looked down on me because of my shape, figuring that he should be able to beat me in anything. so he was extra upset when he couldn't dominate me at anything, even the main style he trained in.

Long story short, some folks are just d!cks.
You can either take what they say to heart or just recognize what they are and give their opinions the credibility that they deserve (none).

Very well put, its telling that guys who have competed in combat sports recognise Rays efforts and give him his due, whilst those that have never competed or just talk about how they will when they get the time (lol) give him a hard time…..I wonder why that is?

As I have said before anyone who competes is a lot further ahead of the curve of those that don’t, and a losing record just means they met better guys on the day. Its only those that have not competed or helped guys get ready for competition that don’t realise that

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Never let other people's weakness undermine the building of your own personal monument"
-Dr. Laura Schlesinger

That woman had a serious bush !
Just saying...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I give anyone the steps into the ring to test their fighting skills the props they deserve, not only for the balls it takes to do that VS an actual trained fighter and not just some bum, but for them doing what the real MA of the past did too, and that is test their fighting abilites not only for the betterment of themselves as MA but for the betterment of their MA.

[goju]

actually people who have given ray a hard time have competed as well hes taken his lunacy over a variety of different martial art forums

[uki]

to keep the thread on topic... ray should just stay out of the ring until he can work the heavy bag without breaking his hand. :)

[lkfmdc]

That woman had a serious bush !
Just saying...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/1502357249_f3ac82d00f.jpg

[goju]

and im not being critical of him i just dont find any reason to act like a **** because youve fought a few times:D

[uki]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/1502357249_f3ac82d00f.jpgi see your taste in woman isn't far behind your choice for an avatar...

[uki]

and im not being critical of him i just dont find any reason to act like a **** because youve fought a few times.i fought a few times... i must say i fared better than ray though. :D

[Pork Chop]

actually people who have given ray a hard time have competed as well hes taken his lunacy over a variety of different martial art forums

I do agree with Ten Tigers in that I don't think the guy's seen the cream of the crop as far as NYC's tcma community is concerned - a few big names, yeah, and some commercial schools; but Rik and I both know some guys that would put him on his azz.

it's just quotes like:
"at 0-3 i wouldn't even be attempting to tell people how to fight."
that irk the ever-loving crud out of me.

i know that's not your's, going back i see it was a common theme in a lot of uki's posts but the sentiment really kinda ticks me off.

there's no shame in losing a fight as long as it's competitive.
in every fight somebody's gotta lose.
beating a guy up over his record, especially when he's still learning is just kinda... low.

as far as the breaking his hand thing goes - Floyd Mayweather Jr's broken his hand in training, as have many other boxers. Does uki really think they don't know how to punch?

I agree with you the guy's not the greatest out there and not on the level to be comparing his gnp to Matt Hughes; but fighters who have big egos are not exactly a rarity...

[Pork Chop]

i fought a few times... i must say i fared better than ray though. :D

really? what's your amateur record?
and don't be counting street fights.

[goju]

I do agree with Ten Tigers in that I don't think the guy's seen the cream of the crop as far as NYC's tcma community is concerned - a few big names, yeah, and some commercial schools; but Rik and I both know some guys that would put him on his azz.

it's just quotes like:
"at 0-3 i wouldn't even be attempting to tell people how to fight."
that irk the ever-loving crud out of me.

i know that's not your's, going back i see it was a common theme in a lot of uki's posts but the sentiment really kinda ticks me off.

there's no shame in losing a fight as long as it's competitive.
in every fight somebody's gotta lose.
beating a guy up over his record, especially when he's still learning is just kinda... low.

as far as the breaking his hand thing goes - Floyd Mayweather Jr's broken his hand in training, as have many other boxers. Does uki really think they don't know how to punch?

I agree with you the guy's not the greatest out there and not on the level to be comparing his gnp to Matt Hughes; but fighters who have big egos are not exactly a rarity...
i agree theres no harm in losing ive lost sparring and grappling rounds with people far better than myself but its supposed to humble you not make you act like an even bigger @ss

[uki]

i am just using ray as example of respect... if you don't give any, you won't get any... the guy lives on an overpopulated volcanic reef, he probably gets his a$$ kicked by the waves he surfs, he gets beat in his matches, he breaks his hand on a heavy bag, and then he has the gall to attack me and my training methods, concepts, and ideals??? LOL... i don't think so, i don't take things personally, but i sure as hell don't let people trample my dignity and if i can be of any kind of inspiration to ray, it should be to be able to stand up for oneself. we are all on our own journey and we all have our own hardships, but if we attempt to find fault in others, we had better have removed the speck from our own eye so we can see clearly to remove the speck from someone elses... ray likes to bite off more than he can chew... lets just say he is getting his mouths worth now. :)

[uki]

really? what's your amateur record?
and don't be counting street fights.why on earth should i not count street fights? they are the only ones that matter... i could care less if i have a medal on my mantle. :)

[Drake]

why on earth should i not count street fights? they are the only ones that matter... i could care less if i have a medal on my mantle. :)

Because there is absolutely no way to assume you've done much other than beat up some untrained drunk? I could go out and win plenty of street fights, because very few people know how to fight, even at a marginal level.

[uki]

Because there is absolutely no way to assume you've done much other than beat up some untrained drunk? I could go out and win plenty of street fights, because very few people know how to fight, even at a marginal level.and your point??? this is somehow different than fighting egomanics in a ring with rules?? LOL... i could fight in a ring, but i would always be disqualified... where's the fun in that?? LMAO!!!

[Yum Cha]

Because there is absolutely no way to assume you've done much other than beat up some untrained drunk? I could go out and win plenty of street fights, because very few people know how to fight, even at a marginal level.


This somehow seems cart-before-horse-ish?

Rather like saying, you could never make it in Nascar, all you do is run white lightning through the back roads in the dark with the cops on your tail.

Wait a minute.....;)

By the way, I'd fear the army combatives trainer over the ring fighter. Credit where credit is due, he's probably both anyway, and he spends his day throwing around guys in a no-nonsense environment. Every other hotshot thinks he can test him a bit as well, I'm betting.

Plus, this is business, professional training, not fun and games, and the mentality of the environment is so oriented.

My mate, a US Army Major put some of that training into play rounding up a bunch of insurgents in Iraq, and from the sounds of it, worked it pretty well. He's not a fighter, correction, he's a terrorist killing Mother F-cker, but not generally a hand to hand guy. He's one of those guys that "doesn't know" his job title....

He trained it in those few lessons you get, but worked it on a guy going after his shoulder holster. Split the guys hand down the middle, freaked him out a bit... More proof, to my mind, that you don't HAVE to fight full contact competition to be a 'handy' individual that can take care of himself.

[goju]

Because there is absolutely no way to assume you've done much other than beat up some untrained drunk? I could go out and win plenty of street fights, because very few people know how to fight, even at a marginal level.

theres also alot of people who compete who arent very good either

and thats not knocking sport fighting its just reality

[dimethylsea]

Because there is absolutely no way to assume you've done much other than beat up some untrained drunk? I could go out and win plenty of street fights, because very few people know how to fight, even at a marginal level.

Actually this is a highly traditional way to establish one's fighting prowess. When you have beaten up every drunk at the local bars who wants some.. then you pass around your business cards and tell them to come train.

[Lucas]

i think it depends what the 'street fight' is. for instance id rather a sport fight over a knife fight, or a sport fight over a multiple person attack. id rather fight Fedor and let him tap me or KO me with his beastly sh!t then fight one little vato with a switch blade thats had a few fights with his buddies watching ready to jump in.

regardless. what can one person really learn from 1 knife fight. not much beyond what it feels like to get cut, and maybe cut someone else. even if you train for knife fighting in a realistic manner all the time and then get in one knife fight. that fight isnt going to make a huge difference in your actual application of skill in the future. what it will do is give you the understanding of the experience itself.

same goes for sport fighting. 1 fight 2 fights. not really going to make a huge impact to your skill set. you'll get the experience of having someone really trying to hurt you. but heres the thing, dont know about a lot of guys here, but i do know that ive been faced with that aggression in training sessions alone. its not always paddy cake, people get ****ed.

however once you start raking in a lot more fights is when you are going to be forged into that arena you've chosen. example: 19 yo muay thai figher with 70 fights. he is the sport of muay thai. yet how well would he fare if you instantly threw him into a pro mma fight, against a well rounded fighter with 20 fights, with only his muay thai experience? he may get a KO, but there is a good chance he would lose. different sport. but they are both fighters right?

still regardless of your intention with martial arts, its really all about the training that leads up to those fights, sport/street or otherwise. everything you could learn in a real or sport fight you can learn in years of training, provided your training is as close to your training goals as possible in a realistic and effective manner.

practicing your kungfu as realistically as you can and fighting with your kungfu brothers is traditional kungfu and it will produce a fighter. just like any other method really. it all just depends on what kind of fighter you are going to be.

[IronWeasel]

as example of respect... if you don't give any, you won't get any...




Finally...

[goju]

i think it depends what the 'street fight' is. for instance id rather a sport fight over a knife fight, or a sport fight over a multiple person attack. id rather fight Fedor and let him tap me or KO me with his beastly sh!t then fight one little vato with a switch blade thats had a few fights with his buddies watching ready to jump in.

regardless. what can one person really learn from 1 knife fight. not much beyond what it feels like to get cut, and maybe cut someone else. even if you train for knife fighting in a realistic manner all the time and then get in one knife fight. that fight isnt going to make a huge difference in your actual application of skill in the future. what it will do is give you the understanding of the experience itself.

same goes for sport fighting. 1 fight 2 fights. not really going to make a huge impact to your skill set. you'll get the experience of having someone really trying to hurt you. but heres the thing, dont know about a lot of guys here, but i do know that ive been faced with that aggression in training sessions alone. its not always paddy cake, people get ****ed.

however once you start raking in a lot more fights is when you are going to be forged into that arena you've chosen. example: 19 yo muay thai figher with 70 fights. he is the sport of muay thai. yet how well would he fare if you instantly threw him into a pro mma fight, against a well rounded fighter with 20 fights, with only his muay thai experience? he may get a KO, but there is a good chance he would lose. different sport. but they are both fighters right?

still regardless of your intention with martial arts, its really all about the training that leads up to those fights, sport/street or otherwise. everything you could learn in a real or sport fight you can learn in years of training, provided your training is as close to your training goals as possible in a realistic and effective manner.

practicing your kungfu as realistically as you can and fighting with your kungfu brothers is traditional kungfu and it will produce a fighter. just like any other method really. it all just depends on what kind of fighter you are going to be.

very good post and very well put old chap:D

[Pork Chop]

why on earth should i not count street fights? they are the only ones that matter... i could care less if i have a medal on my mantle. :)

because if you're going to ignore Ray's throwdown fights; where he dominated most of his opponents, and only focus on his ring fights against highly skilled opponents, then it's not quite fair is it? :)

it's not about a medal.
it's about squaring up against someone else who's highly trained instead of the average bum...
if you haven't done that then you really don't have the right to bash him.

any sport fighter will tell you that street fights are much, MUCH easier than real fights against a trained opponent...

[uki]

in all honesty... i hope some little punk pulls a knife on me with all his little buddies waiting to jump in, this is when you really get to see if yer sh!t works or not... i wait in earnest for the day. :)

and pork chop, sport fighting in a ring is not sparring. :p

[Dragonzbane76]

it's not about a medal.
it's about squaring up against someone else who's highly trained instead of the average bum...
if you haven't done that then you really don't have the right to bash him.

add... until you've actually stepped in there and done it and felt the adrenline,fear,anxiety,crowd,mental struggle,tunnel vision, then you can say something about it.

I agree all the fights I've ever been in outside the ring I didn't have that emotional response that I did when I've fought in the ring. Seems like when your in front of all the people and the pressure mounts and your forced to rise up to meet the challenge then I believe IMO that it makes you a better fighter were as you want to be or not. Even if you lose the fight you come away from it with 3 times the amount of knowledge you stepped in with because your mind breaks it all down trying to figure out what went wrong and your swearing to what ever gods that it will never happen again. :)
until you've done it you really can't say nothing about it IMO. :cool:

[Dragonzbane76]

in all honesty... i hope some little punk pulls a knife on me with all his little buddies waiting to jump in, this is when you really get to see if yer sh!t works or not... i wait in earnest for the day.

not very smart are you. :rolleyes:

[uki]

not very smart are you.LOL... perhaps, but it's one of my true fetishes... that and perhaps being in a store or bank that is getting robbed - i would value this experience far more than being in a ring... these types of experiences are the true ones that test your reflex and fortitude to handle yourself properly in tense situations... ever had a loaded gun put to yer head and feel the the vibration of the hammer cocking travel thru your skull?? LOL... there isn't much left to fear after that my friend. :)

[goju]

uki was a pair of them chuck norris stretch jeans


you dont wanna mess with a guy who wears those:D

[goju]

it's not about a medal.
it's about squaring up against someone else who's highly trained instead of the average bum...
if you haven't done that then you really don't have the right to bash him.

unfortunately though theres alot of guys who do do it for a medal or for their own ego

ive personally seen once humble gentleman think their rockstars after they win a few fightsat the gym i was at

[TenTigers]

I just thought I'd mention, that it seems that when people here talk about street fights, they usually are referring to untrained, unskilled, usually drunk, people.

I've known guys who are streetfighters, and predators. Total sociopaths and experienced brawlers, who have no qualms, and in some cases, a complete disregard for human life.

NEWSFLASH: They do train. Every day. They train in bars, alleys, parkinglots, etc. They fight, they know what works against who, and what doesn't, and they have honed their experience.
Many own equipment, heavybags, weights, etc.
Many of them do have Martial Arts skills. And will not hesitate. Let's not forget that Martial Arts has been around in the Western world for many decades now. There are not only McDojos, but there also are some very badazz schools, who do NOT screen students, and encourage aggression and violence. Cobra-Kai is not a fictitious school (maybe the name is, but the idea isn't) ask anyone who's been around MA for a few decades.
Some of these psychos grew up on the school wrestling teams. We all knew them in school. Then they get out and continue with their bad behavior.
Not sure who I would rather face.

[bawang]

how do they avoid getting shot?
when i lived in east coast canada people in my high school were already carrying guns and making gangs

[TenTigers]

how do they avoid getting shot?
that's a good question. I have two "friends," who, to this day, every time I see them, they have another "war story," of how they laid a beating on someone. One of them is 51, the other in his 40's. I am always amazed that no one has shot them yet.
Most of these types, if they don't die an untimely violent death, usually end up with other physical ailments. (Karma?) One person I know of has a colostomy bag, one has diabetes, one died in jail of heroin overdose, two others are doing ok, one with over 25 yrs clean time, the other six months clean. Twelve-step programs seemd to have helped them tremendously.

[uki]

I just thought I'd mention, that it seems that when people here talk about street fights, they usually are referring to untrained, unskilled, usually drunk, people.i simply refer to street fights as an altercation... can be with anyone, the distinguishing characteristics are simply that anything goes.


I've known guys who are streetfighters, and predators. Total sociopaths and experienced brawlers, who have no qualms, and in some cases, a complete disregard for human life. aye, they are pretty easy to spot.


NEWSFLASH: They do train. Every day. They train in bars, alleys, parkinglots, etc. They fight, they know what works against who, and what doesn't, and they have honed their experience.
Many own equipment, heavybags, weights, etc.
Many of them do have Martial Arts skills. And will not hesitate. Let's not forget that Martial Arts has been around in the Western world for many decades now. There are not only McDojos, but there also are some very badazz schools, who do NOT screen students, and encourage aggression and violence. Cobra-Kai is not a fictitious school (maybe the name is, but the idea isn't) ask anyone who's been around MA for a few decades.
Some of these psychos grew up on the school wrestling teams. We all knew them in school. Then they get out and continue with their bad behavior. effing jocks is what they were called... the kinda guys that would come up behind you and push you down while running on the school track. :)


Not sure who I would rather face.i like to smash egos, so i know who i would like to face... sometimes i muse at the idea just to go out and pretend to be a homeless guy just for sh!ts and giggles. :D

[bawang]

:confused:pretend?

[TenTigers]

:confused:pretend?

Bawang gets my vote.
-for anything. He can run for President, Monarch, Lord High Executioner, don't matter, I will vote for him.

[bawang]

can i run for grandmaster of almightiness

uki says so many embarrasing thigns about himself i feel bad. ill reveal a embarrasing thing about me so u feel better
when i was in grade 2 i shat my pants in the middle of the class with 50 people. the next 2 years my teacher shook his head and sigh whenever he saw me

[uki]

uki says so many embarrasing thigns about himself i feel bad. ill reveal a embarrasing thing about me so u feel better
when i was in grade 2 i shat my pants in the middle of the class with 50 people. the next 2 years my teacher shook his head and sigh whenever he saw meLOL... this does not count when you do it on purpose. :p

[Pork Chop]

I just thought I'd mention, that it seems that when people here talk about street fights, they usually are referring to untrained, unskilled, usually drunk, people.

I've known guys who are streetfighters, and predators. Total sociopaths and experienced brawlers, who have no qualms, and in some cases, a complete disregard for human life.

NEWSFLASH: They do train. Every day. They train in bars, alleys, parkinglots, etc. They fight, they know what works against who, and what doesn't, and they have honed their experience.
Many own equipment, heavybags, weights, etc.
Many of them do have Martial Arts skills. And will not hesitate. Let's not forget that Martial Arts has been around in the Western world for many decades now. There are not only McDojos, but there also are some very badazz schools, who do NOT screen students, and encourage aggression and violence. Cobra-Kai is not a fictitious school (maybe the name is, but the idea isn't) ask anyone who's been around MA for a few decades.
Some of these psychos grew up on the school wrestling teams. We all knew them in school. Then they get out and continue with their bad behavior.
Not sure who I would rather face.

dude, that's coz you live in the NYC metro area, where even the sewer rats are trained killers... :p

[dimethylsea]

dude, that's coz you live in the NYC metro area, where even the sewer rats are trained killers... :p


That's not a sewer rat.. that's a NYC roach that stole a fur coat.