Question for Lee Kam Wing's students

[Tainan Mantis]

In master Lee's book SEVEN-STAR PRAYING MANTIS KUNG FU on page 152 of the 8 rigid techniques # 7 is called Left & Right Alternate Round House Punches. This matches the Chinese characters as well as the explanation in pictures.
But in every other kung fu book this technique is called Left & Right Staff Hand. It is described as straight line punches and uppercuts.
A book of reference would be Master Lee's grandteacher Luo Guang Yu's 14 Tan Tuei in which technique & 9 is named Staff Hand and is clearly explained in pictures in the 7 Star book by the same name.

Why did Master Lee change Staff Hand to Round House Punches?

[tanglangman]

Maybe he discovered that it suited him to do roundhouse punches rather than straight punches.

horses for courses and all that..

If you think about it, if no one had ever changed the way the forms are executed than every master's forms would look exactly the same and yet they don't...

[LawClansman]

Greetings,
Although I am not Lee Kam Wing's student, I feel I can comment on your question. Firstly,I am some what confused to what book you are refering to. The book published by Wong Hon Fun on 14 roads shows road number ten to be left right Huen Choy (roundhouse punches) Which matches the writings of Chiu Chi Man (Lee Kam Wing's teacher) and writings of Law Gwong Yuk that I have seen when in Hong Kong.
Secondly, The 14 roads are not expounding the theory/principles of 12 soft 8 hard methods. In fact the principles predate the 14 roads. Additionally, The 14 roads were created by Law Gwong Yuk to begin with . So the could have been anything he wanted them to be (Eagle Claw has fifty roads).
As to address the question of referencing other mantis books, The Hong Kong group of teachers show distinct differences from the YanTai group of teachers (seven star). This has been discussed before on this and other forums. We cannot comment on Law Gwong Yuk's state of mind when he came to Hong Kong. Only that his teaching methods were different as confirmed by any number of teachers and comparisions. And finally, other teachers that have published have come from different lines of seven star, some with complete training and others with partial training.
So I don't think that Lee Kam Wing changed the 8 rigid principles at all.

Sifu Carl

[Tainan Mantis]

In WHF's books Rigid#7 is LEFT RIGHT DOUBLE STAFF.

As mentioned previuosly, in LKW's books #7 is LEFT RIGHT DOUBLE ROUNDHOUSE PUNCHES.

Since not everyone knows what STAFF HAND means I have included the reference point to 14 Tan Tuei in which #9 is called STAFF HAND.

I am wondering why WHF's and LKW's #7 rigid uses a different name.

I hope I have explained the question clearly.
Thank you for your time.

[LawClansman]

Tainan,
Your first comment refered to the 14 roads Tam Toy. And you stated Law Gwong Yuk's book for reference. Number 9 is the staff hand/ Chow Choy but number 10 is the roundhouse punch.Lee Kam Wing uses the Chow Choy in number 9 as well.
As for the Wong Hon Fun 8 ridges/hard: There are differences between the Won Hon Fun and Chiu Chi Man branch. This happened before Lee Kam Wing. So again I don't feel he has changed anything.
As far as other writings are concerned, Many authors copied information from each other. Most are familiar with the Wong Hon Fun writings so henceforth that information is what is best known.
But in fact all versions of the style contains the huen choy and chow choy so if the expression is a little different it really doesen't matter.
And as I have mentioned before, Chiu Chi Man was Law Gwong Yuk's last student before Law went back to China where he died soon after. So I think that most are not privy to what Chiu Chi Man's final teachings were. Since he published no books (but one magazine article) He wanted no real publicity so you are really quite unfamiliar with this sect on many levels.
Lee Kam Wing did change the expression of the 12 principles and this is so stated in his book. So if he had changed the 8 ridged from what he was taught, it would have been mentioned as well. In Wong Hon Fun's 12 principles he uses the diu (hook)twice. So in fact there are only 11 principles not twelve expressed. Once the term is used then it is automatically assumed that it represents the different ways it can be expressed. That's why it is called a principle. To say Diu Jeun, Diu Da, is approaching calling the terms techniques. I believe Wong Hon Fun changed one character (Diu) at some point but I don't remember when it was.

Sifu Carl

[This message was edited by LawClansman on 10-04-01 at 11:46 AM.]

[Tainan Mantis]

Thank you for your detailed answers to my question.

This brings up another question. How would you describe the technique Staff Hand?
Is there a move or moves in 7 Star Beng Bu or Lan Jie that you could call Staff Hand?

[LawClansman]

T.M.
The Chow Choy is sometimes confused with an uppercut because of its appearance and if you don't read Chinese this mistake can happen. The technique is really an inverted straight punch also called a shovel punch. The added difference in the mantis style is that one hand "picks" before the other hand punches. This "pick" or "pluck" (choy)is the same as in Nau, Lau, Choy.

However, the true meaning of the staff hand is expressed in # 9 of the 14 Roads and that is the way the hand/arm moves from the high position to the low position with a punch. This action is similar the the playing of the staff (up and down).
And lastly the term as a principle refers to the stability of the arm when extended that is to say it can not easily be moved aside.

Sifu Carl

[Tainan Mantis]

IF STAFF HAND THEN FALLING HAND(pardon my poor translation).

It seems like your saying that to do STAFF HAND once requires 2 punches, did I understand correctly?

Then for flexible #4 would you say that it also expresses the meaning of #9 of the 14 roads? Or does #4 have 3 punches?

There is a popular combination in PM called ROLLING FALLING HAND(gun lo). This character for falling is the same as the character for falling in flexible #4. Would you consider these 2 FALLINGs to be the same technique? (I've heard yes and no).

[LawClansman]

T.M. Actually I think you have understood the concept. The "rigid" as expressed in the staff hand is more like "flexible 4". So in fact the "rigid" technique is flexible in itself. The concept of hard and soft walk a fine line in seven star system. As a style, "flexible" concepts far outnumber non-flexible ones. This is easily seen when compared to systems like Hung Gar which rigid techniques predominate.
The so called "8 rigid" techniques are not really rigid, just rigid-er than some others. The concept of the huen choy (roundhouse punch) for example in the LKW list still is a circular action that uses evasiveness as its core concept.

The "falling" technique is slightly different in action and concept. One falling is a descending action and pretty direct like the "Plum Flower Falling Fist" (muy fa lok kuen)
But the falling in road #9 refers to the action of lowering the fist to a mid level. In other words the attack is lower so the hand falls to its new position. The other type of falling implies the falling itself is used in the strike.

Sifu Carl

[Tainan Mantis]

So does rigid #7 mean a left inverted punch followed by a right one? Most likely with an advancing step?

Or could it be Tan Tuei #9 done on the left and right just as we practice it(Totaling 4 punches)?

[yingching]

Could someone elaborate on the 14 roads book? Possible tell where one could obtain a copy of it?
Much appreciated.

[LawClansman]

T.M.
The hardest thing for a student to do is be able to distingush the difference between a technique and a representative movement of a principle. In order for principles to be understood, the teacher gives an example (using a technique of some type) to illustrate the idea . This illustration sometimes becomes substituted for the principle itself.
The eight rigids are really 8 ideas. The movements are examples of the ideas. Without the representitive movements, the student has no sphere of reference.
So yes the chow choy left and right can be used to represent the staff hand but it is not the only technique that can be arrived at using the idea of the staff hand notion.
Since I am not a representive of the Wong Hon Fun clan I cannot give you definitive answers about exactly Wong Hon Fun means in his reference to the left right double staff (#7 rigid). This is better answered by Tony Chuy http://www.northernmantis.com
or Steve Cottrell
http://www.authentickungfu.com
both represent the WHF clan.

Yin Ching,
The mantis version of the Tam Toy /14 roads is out of print. However the information on the 12 flexible, 8 rigid, 12 characters etc can be found in the Fei Ngan Jeung (flying goose palm) book.This book is still around I believe.

Sifu Carl