The "Original" Mantis style?

[HuangKaiVun]

What is the "original" Mantis style?

With all the branches of Praying Mantis out there, I was interested in knowing which style was the one from which all the others sprang.

[NorthernMantis]

Far as I know & star is about as close as you can get to the original.Yeah we're a big family of mantids allright but I think it's cool watching watching the simliarities and differences in all of them.

"Always be ready"

right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!-Fish of Furry

[EARTH DRAGON]

the original form was simply called praying mantis! it was created by a man named wang lang. The history of the Praying Mantis Style of Kung-Fu (T'ang L'ang Ch'uan) began in Gi more County in the Shantung Province, during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). From the oral tradition and the writings of later Mantis masters, we know that the founder and patriarch of the style was Wang Lang. he created the stlye after being easly beat by a shaolin monk. He went off in the forest to dwell over his loss and witnessed a mantis and a much larger cicada fighting, after watching the movements of the mantis he was facinated with the defense taticis, he spent many years catching and studing the trapping and attacking movments of the mantis. After many years he went back to the temple and beat every monk up to the abbott.We have a longer version of the complete history on our web site if you would like to read more! also if your interested in other styles of mantis fernando has a great web site at www.mantiscave.com (http://www.mantiscave.com)

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[HuangKaiVun]

My sifu told me that 6-harmony mantis came before tai chi mantis which came before 7-star mantis.

Is he wrong?

[mantis108]

There are just as many versions of Mantis' origin as it's lineages. It would not make a lot of sense to say who's the inheritor of the original Mantis style or who isn't.

Kung Fu styles are like languages, it is only alive when changes are made. It is like Latin is original but is dead because it is not in use anymore. English on the other hand is very much alive and we will notice the differences between British, American and the Canadian English usages. So I think we should open our minds to accept the others and look towards the development of our own style for guidence to better ourselves.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[NorthernMantis]

oops meant 7 star. :D

"Always be ready"

"right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!"-Fish of Furry

[MiamiMantis]

I believe 7-Star is the closest, and if I'm not mistaken, the original Mantis had no footwork in the system. Later on the best footwork system around at the time was added, which was the Monkey footwork, thus making it a complete system. So thats what I have been told and what I have read. :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Taijimantis]

The fact of the matter is, most of Chinese history in this respect was passed on orally. With no written doccumentation to verify any claim, it is impossible to determine which is "original" and which isnt. Like Sihing said, Kung Fu is like languages.

I have done a lot of research into this area for a book I was working on (and still am, unfortunately it is being postponed until after my graduation :) )

I came to the conclusion that Jo Si wasnt just beaten by a Shaolin Monk, he was a Shaolin monk. He joined the temple and learned kungfu to help in his plans to overthrow the Qin emperor. His idea was that if he were a great fighter he would then be more readily accepted as a cantidate for general.

He was never able to defeat his brother monk Feng (sp) and was disturbed by this ( a Buddhist monk with ego issues :) )and so when Feng went out from the temple to spread the Dharma as was customary in those days, Jo Si practiced and formulated his system from the mantis and the cicaida incident we hear about in legend. Feng had promised a rematch upon his return.

The individual who was defeated repeatedly by Shaolin monks was a Taoist Priest by the name of Yen Sil-Dao, who was responsible for bringing Praying Mantis to the general population after having been kept secret behind the walls of Shaolin for over a Century.

Lots of good stuff out there brothers and sisters, but as to the "original" no one knows for sure. Each Sifu taught it differently to different students.

Shanti

[nobody]

n/t

[Tainan Mantis]

May I reserve a copy of the book now?

[mantis108]

Namasté Taijimantis

Thanks, How's the book coming along? I still looking forward for it.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Laughing Buddha]

"Tang Lang" is the Mandarin dialect pronounciation for "Praying Mantis".
"Tong Long" is the Cantonese dialect pronounciation for "Praying Mantis". The Chinese characters are the same regardless of dialect. Hope this helps.

f

-------------------------------------
A "Laughing Buddha" or "Dai Tao Fut" is usually found cavorting in front of and leading the lion(s) in a Southern Lion Dance troupe.

I speak for myself and not for my Si Fu nor kwoon, so any errors I make are m ine alone.

[Taijimantis]

Its on temporary hold until after my graduation. I finally have broken down and taken up the learning of th Chinese language. It was too much to have others help me with it.

Ill keep everyone posted as to when I begin again, but for now school is more important.

Gotta feed the kids :D

[Kram1]

Hi all,

Can someone pull all this together? What relation do these various mantis branches have with one another? I think 8step and Secret door both came from plum flower, and that TaiJi is related too. After that this get hazy ( for me :D ).Does mi men come from 8step? or the other way around? Tai Ji?, Xing Qi?, Six Harmonies? etc. I've looked at Mantis Cave, a great resource.

Most importantly, WHat makes them unique? How do they differ? How are they the same? I know this is a tough question. But I feel that with all the experience present here, it can be done.

Thanks in advance, for the enlightenment,


MArk

And So It Goes...

[Tainan Mantis]

Secret Door starts with my grand teacher Zhang De Kuei. Passed away in the early '90's. His grand teacher is Jiang Hwa Long of Plum Flower.
My teacher performs his style of Lan Jie on the Panther tape
NORTHERN PRAYING MANTIS KUNG FU
ORDER #:CHINA-14
(all Chinese)
forms of Secret Door:
Lan Jie
Dzai Yao in 7 sections
8 Elbows in 4 sections

Most noticible about this style is the way the power is generated with short distance. Like 1-3 inch punches. Since that type of power is difficult to express it is never taught to beginners by my teacher.
But if you studied with Zhang you had to do his basics for at least 6 months.

[Tainan Mantis]

8 Step starts with Wei Hsiao Tang. Passed away in the 80's I believe. His grand teacher was also Jiang Hwa Long of Plum flower.

Why are the students of Plum Flower using different names?
According to my Shr-fu Jiang Hwa Long didn't use the name Plum Flower. As Jiang didn't use Secret door name.

About 8-step there are 2 stories about the name.

1. From the 8-steps. These are eight 2 man exercises that are designed to be able to change from one technique to another.

2. From another character "to uproot" which sounds like "8" in Chinese. This is a type of jump often seen in most Mantis styles. It is said this name was given by Wei's students.

I'll be asking some of the old timers about the truth when I get a chance. But since reason #1 is already written in the 8-step book that is probably what everyone will think 100 years from now.

Forms:
Hsiao fan che
Da fan che
Dzai yao in 6 sections.
Li pi
and a short form, 7 hands
Pai an

The way I learned this style was suitable for my lanky body, with very long whipping motions. But I have seen Wei's older students do some of the punches like Secret Door with the short power.

So mostly about the look, the difference should be in the individual and him doing the motion that is suitable for his body type and personality.

[Kram1]

Great post TM, thanks for the inforamation!
Questions for clarification.

Jiang Hwa Long studied Mei Hua( Plum flower), and at the end of his life created 8 step. He passed this system on to Feng Huan Yi, and Wang Zi Jing? Or, did he invent Mi Men, as well and pass that only on to Wang?

Both Mi Men (secret door)and Ba Bu (8 Step) share similar footwork. According to Tainan Mantis, one of the differences is the short power puches (sound similar to wing chun?!). Any other diferences?

I remain gratfull for whatever wisdom comes my way.


Mark

And So It Goes...

[baji-fist]

Tainan Mantis, I have seen your sifu move on that tape. He is quite good! My kung fu brother and I watched the preying mantis tape and felt he was a really good representative in that video. Wow, when he performed Lan Jie, it took my breath away. I can't say too much about the other mantis practitioners (specifically the ones in the black uniforms)who were on the tape.

I myself come from Master Su Yu Chang's lineage. My sifu is Kurt Wong who was orginally a disciple of Mastter Su before becoming a disciple of GM Liu Yun Qiao. I primarily concentrate on Bajiquan and only have been exposed to 7 star and 8 step mantis. Now I know why Master Su said Mi Men Tang Lang is perhaps the hardest to learn out of all the mantis systems.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Tainan Mantis]

was not Jiang Hwa Long. Sorry for the mistake several posts back. His grandteacher was Song Dz De, kung fu brother of Jiang Hwa Long.

Kram1
It is unlikely that Jiang Hwa Long created the name 8 Step or Mei Hwa. According to my teacher he never used any name but PM. Same thing with Zhang De Kuei.

Feng Huan Yi is Wei Hsiao Tang's PM teacher. But in a poem he wrote about his teachers(includes names) it is obvious that he traveled around and learned from many different people. ( I think this is why they were good, they cross trained).

Jiang Hwa Long's students who learned from him at different periods in his life would have learned something different as he was mixing with other masters throughout his life learning new things. Not to mention that as one gets older they do their kung fu differently.

According to history, Jiang Hwa Long's chief disciple is Li Ku Shan then Li Hong Jie then my teacher. This is recorded at the Wang Lang temple in Lao Shan. Although I've never been there but my teacher has pictures, for whatever that is worth. There are undoubtedly other's names recorded as sole inheritor there, too.

In my opinion the biggest differences between 8-Step and Secret Door are the forms. I haven't learned all those forms but I've seen that the 2 different style's Dzia Yao forms are very different, even look unrelated. Also Secret door has more short range and 8 Step more long range.

For example: over head smash-PI- has a straight elbow in 8 Step but bent in Secret Door. The technique's differences is an individual preference based on body type and what works for the individual.

Hey, I'm from Tampa too. Where do you study PM?

Guo Bao-Lo
That Lan Jie you saw on the Panther video looks difficult to do and yet it is the first form of the style. It is obvious that there where no introductory forms in those days.

My teacher has also said Secret Door is the hardest to learn, as well as being the closest to the way Wang Lang did his PM.

Does Kurt Wong have a web page I can see?

[baji-fist]

Tainan Mantis,

Our website is http://www.geocities.com/pao_chuan/wutanhp.html

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Kram1]

Chen,
I'm just bringing this back up so that Chen can see some of the info he was looking for. I hope this helps.

Tainan, Yes, I am studying under Shr-fu John. He tells me to say hello. I hope that you can find the time to go into the subject of the history and diferences of the styles. I remain intensely interested.

MArk

And So It Goes...

[nobody]

i study 8 step, and it is called 8 step because the core footwork of my style consists of 8 short steps and 8 long steps

[tiger lui]

this version i came across starts as Taijmantis explains it,then carries on like this. the growing praying mantis system eventually began to split into factions.finally,during the Ching Dynasty,four of the major praying mantis disciples became embroiled in an unresolvable argument about whose techniques were the best.each demanded he be allowed to separate from the mother school and go his own way.the master of the school consented on one condition,each disciple would first be required to capture a mantis and name his new style after the markings on the back of the mantis. one set of marks resembled seven stars,tsi t`sing,another was plum blossom,mei hua,then there was the sign of yin-yang,tai t`si,and the mantis with no markings at all,kwong p`an,which means naked.the disciple who foundered the tai chi praying mantis school was Liang Tsu,three generations later came chiu chuk kai :)

[EARTH DRAGON]

I guess that without being there it is hard to figure out the facts of history and the stories that where made up and passed orally through the years. This is my shrfu shyun kwan long's whos great grandteacher was Chiang Hua Long who was the 7th generation master of the Praying Mantis system. Before him, much of this art form was shrouded in mystery. With his appearance people would again marvel at skills that had only been dreamt of. Famous for his lightning fast hands, "Ghost Hands" became a very prominent figure in Chinese history. Not only did Chiang Hua Long posses great skills as a martial artist, but he proved to be a person with the highest of morals as well. Taking from the rich to distribute to the poor, it is easy to see similarities between Chiang Hua Long and Robin Hood. Chiang Hua Long's courageous and selfless acts won him the love and admiration of the Chinese people. His mastery of the Praying Mantis system won him the respect of martial artist everywhere, and the fear of his enemies.

To uphold his responsibility as Grandmaster of the style, Chiang Hua Long could never be short sighted. The very energetic jumping style of the monkey footwork was very effective but it required a great deal of energy. Chiang Hua Long realized that if he were to live up to his obligations he would have to maintain his fighting abilities well into his old age. He would have to create a new system of footwork that would use energy efficiently but also maintain the MantisÕs devastating effectiveness. Changing the Mantis system was not to be taken lightly, but as Grandmaster he was responsible for strengthening any weaknesses.

Being well respected by the masters of the martial arts throughout China, Chiang Hua Long was in an advantageous position. Traveling throughout China, Chiang Hua Long met with masters of many styles. To have such a man as Chiang Hua Long ask about their techniques was a great honor. The masters of martial art's most effective systems openly shared their techniques and secrets with him. Chiang Hua Long studied the footwork of many styles such as Bagua and Tom Pei. He spent a great deal of time studying and experimenting with each movement. Having an incredible amount of experience applying his skills, Chiang Hua Long knew what would be an improvement and what would simply be change. Very carefully he considered each technique until, after ten years, he had narrowed down the most effective to eight short and eight long steps. Chiang Hua Long had taken one of the very most effective fighting systems in the world and was able to improve it. The Eight Step Praying Mantis system had been born.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kram1]

Just refreshing this so TM can see my reply to his previous post

And So It Goes...

[Tainan Mantis]

Start a new post with a specific question.

I hear the clubs are coming to Taiwan in March. Are you too?

[Rolling_Hand]

Chu Gar Tong Long is the original praying mantis, its also the most deadly and powerful system amongst all Tong Long schools.

[Kram1]

I SERIOUSLY doubt that the family budget will stretch to cover going to Taiwan! :( Will be going to Germany though.

BTW, I wasn't asking a question in my last post, I was answering yours :)


MArk

And So It Goes...

[EARTH DRAGON]

you cant be serious? tainan you want to take this one? I am to busy laughing...............

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Rolling_Hand]

--busy laughing
AFTER, you might be crying...

[Tainan Mantis]

MArtists often like to think thier master is best and that their style is too. Luckily I've had my butt whipped by such a large variety of styles and practitioners that it has given me a new mind set.

If Rolling says the Chu family PM style is best, then so be it. Since it is not available in Taiwan I'll just take his word for it.

But, as far as I know that style is not related to Wang Lang's style. So back to the original question.

The details of the original PM style should be enclosed within the 18 family poem. That doesn't help much but is a place to start.

Mantis108, you said you had another version different from 7 Star?