Horse stance form

[Leto]

Does anyone know a form or ever seen a form which was performed entirely in horse stance? northern, southern, shaolin, internal or whatever, has anyone ever seen such a thing? Not necessarily stationary, but which uses no stances other than horse stance?
Or if not an entire form, a good portion of one, or a drill, or something?

If anyone here knows shorin ryu, naihanchi kata, this is what I'm thinking of. Ever seen anything Chinese remotely like it?

[Dragonzbane76]

kempo had some forms like you describe. Not sure about any chinese. Only thing I can think of is some sets that involve what you described but they were never considered forms unless someone mistaked one for a form. Don't know.

[Frost]

kempo had some forms like you describe. Not sure about any chinese. Only thing I can think of is some sets that involve what you described but they were never considered forms unless someone mistaked one for a form. Don't know.

lau gar in the UK's first set is performed entirly in a horse stance, 10 hands movements performed on each side in the horse stance.

i believe its is there to teach leg strength and some of the basic hand movements not a fighting set

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9UHtaKmLQk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4iuR88xCBs&feature=related

[David Jamieson]

I don't know of any that have you sit in horse for the duration, but, we have a set that a large portion of it is performed out of a horse stance. Probably about 70% of the set is sitting in horse.

Yes, stances are mobile, but they often are not trained in that way. :-)

[Lucas]

I don't know of any that have you sit in horse for the duration, but, we have a set that a large portion of it is performed out of a horse stance. Probably about 70% of the set is sitting in horse.

Yes, stances are mobile, but they often are not trained in that way. :-)


ditto

you can always just make your own :eek:

[Cappadonna]

we have a drill at Wah Lum in which we go thru all of the different stances.

but i'm not sure if thats what you're asking

[IronFist]

If the whole thing is done in horse stance, how wouldn't it be stationary?

[Lee Chiang Po]

If the whole thing is done in horse stance, how wouldn't it be stationary?

The horse is not fully stationary by any means. You should be able to do any function from the horse. Your jull mah forms teach you to move while in stance. You strike from stance, block, parry, and kick from stance. The stance gives you power and mobility. I have to admit though, some stances I have witnessed appear to be very wide, which would prevent myself at least from moving well or even from applying kicks and other functions.
Consider if you were just standing in place with your hands down by your side. You walk forward, backward, and even move side to side. Nothing to it. You remain in this same stance as you do all this. The same thing applies when you are in horse. You just move forward, backward, and to the sides while remaining in horse. It does not have to look like you are taking a dump all the time. I suspect most styles are that way.

LCP

[Yum Cha]

The horse is not fully stationary by any means. You should be able to do any function from the horse. Your jull mah forms teach you to move while in stance. You strike from stance, block, parry, and kick from stance. The stance gives you power and mobility. I have to admit though, some stances I have witnessed appear to be very wide, which would prevent myself at least from moving well or even from applying kicks and other functions.
Consider if you were just standing in place with your hands down by your side. You walk forward, backward, and even move side to side. Nothing to it. You remain in this same stance as you do all this. The same thing applies when you are in horse. You just move forward, backward, and to the sides while remaining in horse. It does not have to look like you are taking a dump all the time. I suspect most styles are that way.

LCP

Yea, I was kinda scratching my head on that one, all the forms I ever learned, in any style, always were done in stance.

[IronFist]

Guess we have different definitions of stances :)

I don't walk or fight in a horse stance :D

I saw a form once that was an upper body qigong thing that was done entirely in a horse stance. It was coordinated movements + breathing type of stuff. Hard qigong. That counts. But it wasn't really a form. It was more like an exercise that you were supposed to do for x reps.

[Leto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9UHtaKmLQk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4iuR88xCBs&feature=related

Thanks bawang. those are good examples. My suspicion is that it will be southern styles like in those links which will have this type of form.

if anyone doesn't know shorin ryu, this is naihanchi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk91kI_76jU

I know it is thoroughly Okinawan in its current form, but it must have been inspired by some type of Chinese martial art, it's name is a transliteration of a Chinese name (exactly what, is debated).

There's nowhere else to find people with such a wide diversity of experience with Chinese martial arts, so I thought I'd ask about it here.

[bawang]

hey man no problem
people on the south coast like to practice their kung fu on boats thats why
moving forward 2 or 3 steps then move back 2 3 steps is jiangnan chuan quan "boat fist"

[dimethylsea]

Park Bok-Nam's version of baguazhang teaches a moving stances routine for each of the eight basic stances of the style.

The one for horse is done out of horse.. moving from horse to bow, step through, back to horse, then to bow, then step through... all while doing parrying motions and basic palm strikes.

I was always told it was basically a bagua version analogous to preying mantis basics.

[Leto]

Alternatively, does anyone have a form or drill which focuses on that unique inner knee kick/sweep? nei xi (inner knee) kick? in Japanese they call it nami gaeshi (returning wave). That could also be a link to the Okinawan form. It does look like something a person might use on a boat, but of course that type of technique is just as useful on solid ground. Picture having a hold of one or both of the opponent's arms, squared off with him, and then kicking the legs out. Any equivalent in any of your styles?

[David Jamieson]

Alternatively, does anyone have a form or drill which focuses on that unique inner knee kick/sweep? nei xi (inner knee) kick? in Japanese they call it nami gaeshi (returning wave). That could also be a link to the Okinawan form. It does look like something a person might use on a boat, but of course that type of technique is just as useful on solid ground. Picture having a hold of one or both of the opponent's arms, squared off with him, and then kicking the legs out. Any equivalent in any of your styles?

In cma this is usually termed a "shovel" kick.

also, bearded hook step. (like general gwan seeping away his beard)

the kick is present in a few of the forms i know.

[Dragonzbane76]

heard it refered to as a "scoop" kick as well.

[Fa Xing]

In Jeet Kune Do we call it an oblique kick.

Octavio Quintero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KFmkqtMPd4) demonstrates it in this vid. He trained with my instructor under Sifu Jerry Poteet.

[Yum Cha]

bearded hook step

sounds somehow erotic...

Present in all kinds of southern KF - the kick, not the eroticism.

[wiz cool c]

naihanchi chodan it's a karate form

[SanHeChuan]

Well if your looking for kung fu karate connections check out the Hakka styles that's were most Karate comes from.

Do a youtube seach of these styles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka_Kuen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian_White_Crane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ancestors

I believe Luohan was mentioned in the bubishi and could have come through 5 ancestors fist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luohan_(martial_arts)

When I did shorin-ryu the naihanchi's were done in a high stance, I suppose you could call it a high horse.

[David Jamieson]

Well if your looking for kung fu karate connections check out the Hakka styles that's were most Karate comes from.

Do a youtube seach of these styles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka_Kuen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian_White_Crane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ancestors

I believe Luohan was mentioned in the bubishi and could have come through 5 ancestors fist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luohan_(martial_arts)

When I did shorin-ryu the naihanchi's were done in a high stance, I suppose you could call it a high horse.

sei ping dai mah is pretty much a tcma thing. I hardly ever see it outside of sillum/shaolin, choylifut or hungkuen

[Leto]

Yes, I feel naihanchi is closer to southern hakka styles, I'm aware of those connections. And it is taught in most styles with a stance that is not the same as a standard horse, it is more like a form of the sanchin stance. Though shorin ryu isn't as close to the hakka styles as goju ryu and uechi ryu, it's older and had more diverse foundations. What I wanted to see is if anyone has ever seen a Chinese form that has a similar format to naihanchi, either in the stance and method of sideways locomotion, or the particular type of kick which the form might have been named for. It's not even been determined for sure what "naihanchi" means. one person says it is nei fuan zhan, internal divided conflict. another says it may describe the type of kicking, "nei xi", inside knee, and came from some school of southern crane. I don't expect to find the exact form or anything still existing with the same name, but there might be some vestige of it somewhere.
I've been having a debate wherein it was discussed that naihanchi should be done in a standard Chinese horse stance (as it is in shotokan), not the modified stance which most Okinawan shorin ryu schools teach it, and that it was related to a northern Chinese style rather than southern. I argued that the stance is more like the sanchin/sanzhan stance, higher than a normal horse, and naihanchi is closer to southern Chinese systems. In my own experience with Chinese martial arts, I haven't seen northern style forms that come anywhere close to naihanchi. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So far everyone who has responded here with anything close have been from southern systems, which is what I would expect.
I've been looking into Okinawan/Chinese martial arts connections for years now, not all the information out there is accurate or reliable, a lot of it is just guesswork on the part of researchers. Much of the research and findings apply mainly to naha te/goju ryu kata, very little on the older shorin ryu kata. But I think I've probably read or heard of just about everything that's been published so far on this topic. The origins of naihanchi, along with most of the shorin ryu kata, remain obscure.
At this point, I'm not necessarily looking for the "missing link" or the exact style which is the origin of naihanchi or any other kata, I don't believe that exists anymore. But simply Chinese forms which share similar elements so that we could point to them and say that such techniques exist and how they might have been practiced. For the roots of shorin ryu in Chinse styles, we'd have to go back to Chinese systems that were around between the late 18th century and mid 19th century.

[mawali]

Oye Leto,

Many, if not most of Okinawan style(s) are from Southern China based on the varying Crane Styles that existed when the Okinawans visited S. China, or, when the periodic Chinese merchant(s) visited the Ryukun Islands.
The Horse stance is a recent creation, or at best, a transition from when Okinawan styles migrated to mainland Japan.
Naihanchi appears to be an Okinawan creation, which retained/maintained its 'secrecy' based on who you studied with, the era in which you studied and /or the insight gained from seeking those who are/were intimately familiar with said systems. When I was in Okinawa around 1977-1980, the practice of much of kata was on blocking and striking as evidenced by the books and other media presentations and that is how it was practiced, taught, explained and postulated.
That was the external presentation but within certain areas of Okinawa, there were those who practiced naihanchi as grappling (seizing/kyusho) and some throwing (limited) but the blocking/striking persists unitl this day.

Most stances were "high", a relative vs an absolute term so there was wigglle room to work with what the real value of the specific kata! A good reference is :Bubishi; by William! (not sure) McCarthy. Most, if not all influence was S. China as opposed to North China.
Take a look at Okinawa on a map and compare mainland Japan with South China!

[Leto]

Oh, of course most of Okinawa's contact with China came from Fujian, being the closest region. But emissaries were sent there from the royal court in Beijing, and likewise Okinawa sent emissaries. Also, there are northern shaolin/long fist styles which made their way into south China (thinking the lineage of Bak Sil Lum, as well as those that influenced the creation of Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, and other related styles). So we can't say that only white crane and hakka arts have any relation to karate.
The bubishi translation by Patrick McCarthy is the one you're thinking of. Yes, it's a great resource, but only really only addresses direct connections with a few naha te/goju/uechi kata and the Chinese men who taught Kanryo Higashionna and Chojun Miyagi in the late 19th century. There's nothing about shorin ryu kata, specifically. And the research is far from definitive or complete.
All of karate is an Okinawan creation, but much of it has links or inspiration from Chinese styles. So while each kata is not going to be found in China, I do believe they had inspiration from different Chinese styles. The Okinawans may have learned a part of a form, or remembered certain techniques and used them to create a new kata.
I don't even want something that is the same, I just want to see if there is something with some similarity. According to the tradition, naihanchi is one of the oldest kata, and came from a Chinese style. Maybe that's just a misdirection or fabrication...but that's what's said. The fact that the name of the kata is an Okinawan transliteration of some Chinese words that no one knows the meaning of for sure says to me there might be some truth to the Chinese connection.

[bawang]

does anyone do horse stance with weights? its insanely hard
any1 want to share how they train the horse stance? i think it would be a cool thing 2 talk about

[TenTigers]

does anyone do horse stance with weights? its insanely hard
any1 want to share how they train the horse stance? i think it would be a cool thing 2 talk about
we place a staff across the thighs for horse and bow and arrow stance.
Beginner students must hold the horse with the staff for one minute before they can qualify for their first basic level.
When I started in Northern Siu-Lum, our teacher had us meditate in a horse(not that low) for twenty minutes to a half-hour. Fifteen students dropped down to two, (my friend and I) and that's how we were accepted.

I also teach a "Horse Set" for beginners, and it is done in every class. It consists of Horse, Twisted, Bow, and Cat, in a partcular sequence. Stances are held low, for longer periods of time, and each repetition of the set, they get faster.
This is also the footwork for our basic Lion Dance rountine. This way, they can get under the head quicker.
Once you are under the head, you now have added weight, and all the stance, stepping, twisting, shifting etc comes into play. You develop strength as well as stamina, and power generation.

[uki]

make a form up... use only horse stance. pretty simple stuff. smoke a doobie or eat some shrooms first to let your creativity flow. :D

[kfman5F]

The Five Family Style has a short exercise called "walking the horse." It starts with a square horse and repeats the same movements on both left and right with cross stances, forward stances and pivoting. No cat stances.

[Lucas]

another simple horse stance exersize is to getinto horse stance, and then jump up and forward while staying in horse stance and landing in horse stance. you can do this for as long as you want really. go as high and as far as you can without fully leaving your stance. this will help train your exposiveness from the deep horse stance. add weights if you want, or a monkey on your back :D

i also like partner stance testing. in horse stance or bow stance or what ever stance you want really.

get a partner, both get in stance and clasp forearms and try to pull each other out of stance.

you can make it even more fun and bet on it :eek:

if you have a third person they can be the ref. you can set rules. allowing no stepping, no rising above a certain plane, etc.

make it more interesting and each of you can get on elevated platforms. like poles, or even more shaky cynderblocks.

you can set up a couple of cynder blocks where your feet will be in your horse stance, and jump up onto the blocks. the more narrow and high the blocks are the more difficult it will be to make sure you land perfectly.

lots of fun things like these out there. im pretty sure there is an unlimited amount of things you can do to train your stance.

after years, just sitting in stance will bore anyone, so we like to make fun games that still train us.

[bawang]

cool training man.
when i learned in taiji u learn standing post holding a invisible qi ball but after a while u hold a stone ball. its hard as hell. also try doing horse stance with a barbell on ur back like when u squat its hardcore