Looking for a Good Book on WCK Application [Archive]

Hardwork108

12-15-2009, 09:25 PM

My buddy is looking for a book that has a lot of good application material in it. Any suggestions?

Hello,

Your friend may want to look into the following books:

1. Mastering Wing Chun, by Samuel Kwok, sub headed, "The Keys to Ip Man's Kung Fu". This book's text contains history; illustration of forms, applications and etc.

2. Chong Woo Kwan Wing Chun, by the late Master Joseph Cheng. Sub headed, "The Art of Simultaneous Defense and Attack. I am led to believe that Joseph Cheng was one of the few Wing Chun sifus of his time, who was the real deal, that is he had the internals!

I believee that his lineage was Mainland Chinese.

This book contains many illustrations of Wing Chun applications against various types of attack, including those from kickboxers and karate ka.

3. The Nucleus of The Wing Chun System, by Stephan T.K. Chan.

This book may be out of print. I have a big hard back copy. It has plenty of applications including ones against exponents of other styles.

4. Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen, by Rene Richie - who I believe posts on this site, or at least did in the past - sub headed, "History and Foundations".

Even though, as the title implies, this book covers history and principles, there are some interesting applications.

Your friend will just need to have a look and see which one, or more, of the books are more appealing to him.

HW108
PS. Master Robert Chu posts in this site as well and I believe that he has authored some books. Maybe he can recommend one of his books that would be relevant to what your friend wants.

HW108

Yoshiyahu

12-17-2009, 12:02 PM

My buddy is looking for a book that has a lot of good application material in it. Any suggestions?

A good thing to do is purchased different Sifu books on the different forms...Usually at the end they have various applications...

Such as Ip Chun wing chun

Wing Chun Kung Fu: Traditional Chinese King Fu for Self-Defense and Health‎

In the back there are some applications of Sil Lim Tao

An Yip Man's book on the wooden dummy form has some applications in the back as well!

Steeeve

12-18-2009, 06:26 PM

Randy William book....thats a encyclopedia of WC....like it or not....thats good work

donbdc

12-18-2009, 07:07 PM

In response to Steeeve

The work and detail that went into the original six volumes in a pre computer age is amzing. The expalantion of theory and aplication along w/ step by step break down of the forms have not nor will they ever be matched by anyone!

Don Berry DC RKC

Steeeve

12-18-2009, 07:15 PM

I agree Don:)
Randy is a encyclopedia of wing chun ...and a hard stylist of the style:)

stonecrusher69

12-21-2009, 01:54 PM

I have all 6 volumes of R.W. Books. I'm thinking of selling them. There in good conditions if anyone interested PM ..

donbdc

12-21-2009, 01:59 PM

What are you asking PM or donbdc@yahoo.com

Thanks

t_niehoff

12-22-2009, 07:59 AM

My buddy is looking for a book that has a lot of good application material in it. Any suggestions?

My view is that WCK "application" can't be learned from a book -- just like you can't learn surfing "application" from a book. You learn to surf by being shown a few things and then hitting the waves. Sort of like chi sao (WCK with the training wheels on) -- you can't learn it from a book.

What is presented as "WCK application" in books, articles, and in classes is typically unrealistic (it won't work in fighting, particularly against anyone with good atributes or skills) or is low-percentage and high-risk. Unless a person has a significant amount of fighting experience (particularly with persons of good attributes and/or skills) they won't be able to appreciate that: a big problem is that nonfighters or persons without significant experience believe they have the ability to assess things pertaining to fighting. They can't, but they don't know they can't (unconscious incompetence). And this is why that stuff continues to get "passed on". Before you accept ANYTHING as valid, you should expect to see it actually used in fighting. If they can't or won't show it in fighting, then you know it's nonsense.

Keep in mind that when you practice unrealistic things, you aren't getting better but are actually getting worse -- you are now practicing to fail.

donbdc

12-22-2009, 12:29 PM

My view is that WCK "application" can't be learned from a book -- just like you can't learn surfing "application" from a book. You learn to surf by being shown a few things and then hitting the waves. Sort of like chi sao (WCK with the training wheels on) -- you can't learn it from a book.

What is presented as "WCK application" in books, articles, and in classes is typically unrealistic (it won't work in fighting, particularly against anyone with good atributes or skills) or is low-percentage and high-risk. Unless a person has a significant amount of fighting experience (particularly with persons of good attributes and/or skills) they won't be able to appreciate that: a big problem is that nonfighters or persons without significant experience believe they have the ability to assess things pertaining to fighting. They can't, but they don't know they can't (unconscious incompetence). And this is why that stuff continues to get "passed on". Before you accept ANYTHING as valid, you should expect to see it actually used in fighting. If they can't or won't show it in fighting, then you know it's nonsense.

Keep in mind that when you practice unrealistic things, you aren't getting better but are actually getting worse -- you are now practicing to fail.

Hope the family is well and holidays are going smoothly. But I disagree %100 w/ you on this. You can learn from books and class and tie it together w/ sparring to make it happen. That is the purpse for drills, building muscle memory so you don't have to think b/c you wont have time to think w/ live action. You have to start some where. I am 49 yo, I have trained in multiple arts w/ multiple levels of people,over 30yrs. some very skilled. It does work, you have to work at it to make it work. Books are great reference some are better than others of course.
I think Logan College is having some event in 2010 I hope to grab some CEU's and finally get to meet you. We can share ideas and play around then.
Take Care and Merry Christmas
Don Berry DC RKC

t_niehoff

12-22-2009, 12:52 PM

Hope the family is well and holidays are going smoothly. But I disagree %100 w/ you on this. You can learn from books and class and tie it together w/ sparring to make it happen. That is the purpse for drills, building muscle memory so you don't have to think b/c you wont have time to think w/ live action. You have to start some where. I am 49 yo, I have trained in multiple arts w/ multiple levels of people,over 30yrs. some very skilled. It does work, you have to work at it to make it work. Books are great reference some are better than others of course.

You are not alone in your views -- most WCK people would agree with you. The WCK curriculum, including the forms and drills, teach you the actions/movements of WCK but NOT how to apply those movements in fighting (since you are not doing them in a fighting context but in unrealistic forms or drills). The forms and drills do not represent what you can really do in fighting. You learn "application" (how to use your WCK) by and through application (by trying to use it). This is why almost any WCK person can do the forms and drills but can't use those same actions in fighting (at least not consistently).

You learn to box by boxing, not from a book. How many books on boxing do you think Tyson or Ali or etc. read? ;)

I think Logan College is having some event in 2010 I hope to grab some CEU's and finally get to meet you. We can share ideas and play around then.
Take Care and Merry Christmas
Don Berry DC RKC

Great. :)

Ultimatewingchun

12-22-2009, 01:18 PM

donbdc

12-22-2009, 01:21 PM

Terence,
Bruce Lee studied boxing via books and did, so have many fighters including Sugar Ray, who studied the Tao of JKD. You can learn from books but you have to put them down and apply. The same w/ a drill, drill it drill it drill it then take away the rules and test it. Every MA i have ever seen does this even BJJ!
My advice to originator of the thread get the book and make up your own mind.

Peace
Don Berry DC RKC

t_niehoff

12-22-2009, 01:35 PM

Sometimes WCK applications are put right in front of people, but for whatever?! reason
(pick one amoungst many)...they refuse to see them.

And sometimes others do see them.

Here's one that I see very clearly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9TzQ36BGDM

Victor, that isn't application. You've just highlighted the problem -- people mistake techniques (practicing techniques) for application. Application is sparring (or, more accurately, what you are doing in sparring).

punchdrunk

12-22-2009, 03:52 PM

heh, not many Wing Chun people ever apply their studies, so they are really intellectually bound and are confused on even the most basic points. I have never found a good book on martial applications, but I have read more than a few on history and theory. Applications are better learnt through experience, but books can give real general or basic techniques that you can experiment with and apply in your training. Bruce Lee's many books about training can give you ideas to play with (not pure Wing Chun). That's what got me started in Wing Chun and away from sport karate as a youth. Applying the centerline theory, in karate sparring made me see the value of Wing Chun principles before I ever learned even a single Wing Chun technique. When I had the chance to train in Wing Chun I jumped at it.

t_niehoff

12-22-2009, 04:06 PM

Terence,
Bruce Lee studied boxing via books and did, so have many fighters including Sugar Ray, who studied the Tao of JKD. You can learn from books but you have to put them down and apply.

Sure, you can learn "something" from books -- but it isn't "application".

The same w/ a drill, drill it drill it drill it then take away the rules and test it. Every MA i have ever seen does this even BJJ!

No, that's not how it works (certainly not in BJJ). Learning application -- that is, learning to apply the things you have learned in sparring -- doesn't come from rote drilling but rather from trying to apply whatever it is in sparring. That's where YOU learn what works for YOU, how it works for YOU, when it doesn't work for YOU, etc. No one can teach you that. No one can give you that. That doesn't come from a book. That doesn't come from a sifu.

When people talk about "testing" something, that tells me they aren't already doing it (since if you are already doing it there is no need to test it).

bennyvt

12-23-2009, 05:44 AM

t_niehoff

12-23-2009, 06:05 AM

so you mean you learn imy to win when you spar.

No. You learn to apply your WCK (to fight with your WCK) by practicing applying your WCK (fighting with your WCK). Winning and losing is another matter entirely.

You learn to grapple (BJJ) by grappling; you will do a lot of tapping (losing) in learning to apply your BJJ.

You selectively say you cant learn to fight by drills, chi sao, books etc. But then talk about testing fighting applicitions while you spar.

You are confusing techniques with applying (being able to do them while fighting) those techniques.

You cant learn to fight by sparing.

There is no other way. You learn to surf by surfing, you learn to swim by swimming, you learn to ride a bike by riding the bike, you learn to box by boxing, you learn to grapple by grappling. Look at all fighters of proven significant skill and how they've trained.

You can learn certain parts of a fight at a certain intensity just like you can in all fighting drills like simple drills, chi sao, sparing etc. Books are the same as being told something you just dont get the same feed back. While it takes longer its better then nothing and if combined with proper instructing can give new ideas and presseatives. Sort of like this forum.

It may be a great idea to get different perspectives, etc. but in the end, it boils down to that you learn to apply your WCK through sparring-- that application is sparring. In terms of learning to apply your WCK or your BJJ or whatever, your teacher isn't that significant -- what is significant is who (their level) your sparring partners are and how much time sparring you put in.

To put it another way, you don't learn to fight by not fighting.

sanjuro_ronin

12-23-2009, 06:45 AM

All teaching mediums serve a purpose but we need to not give more credit than they deserve.
Applications are one persons's view of how THEIR WC looks like, sometimes it is a valid view and other times it may be based on what a person THINKS they can do as opposed to what they have done.
"Our" WC is based on what we can do and how we do it, it is uniquely "ours" and as such our applications will be ours and no one else.
Sure we can sometimes grab something we like and make it our own, but that is the crux of the matter, it still has to be made our own.

k gledhill

12-23-2009, 06:58 AM

no good books, buy a heavy bag instead ... the best thing to have is a good solid ko punch, not a bunch of 'moves' :D

sanjuro_ronin

12-23-2009, 07:00 AM

no good books, buy a heavy bag instead ... the best thing to have is a good solid ko punch, not a bunch of 'moves' :D

Just ask Cung Le.

Frost

12-23-2009, 07:17 AM

so you mean you learn imy to win when you spar. You selectively say you cant learn to fight by drills, chi sao, books etc. But then talk about testing fighting applicitions while you spar. You cant learn to fight by sparing. You can learn certain parts of a fight at a certain intensity just like you can in all fighting drills like simple drills, chi sao, sparing etc. Books are the same as being told something you just dont get the same feed back. While it takes longer its better then nothing and if combined with proper instructing can give new ideas and presseatives. Sort of like this forum.

You learn to fight by fighting; sparring is the closest many of us will get to a fight bar actually going and looking for trouble.

Sparring against a resistant opponent trying to hit you teaches you timing, distance, improves your reaction time under pressure and teaches you how to apply power into your shots and how deal with incoming force all under a stressful training environment.

How does this not helping you learn to fight?:confused:

t_niehoff

12-23-2009, 07:35 AM

Let me try to clarify this a bit:

When you learn BJJ, for example, you will be taught the straight arm bar from the guard. And you will drill that over and over. Why? To develop your ability to perform the movement, the technique. But that isn't application. That's practicing a technique or movement. Application is actually doing it in sparring/fighting.

There is the technique, the movement, or whatever you want to call it -- the arm bar from the guard or in the case of WCK, perhaps a tan da. And then there is applying it or what we call "application" -- using it in sparring/fighting.

To be able to apply the arm bar from the guard (use it in fighting/sparring) or pull off a tan da, you certainly need to be able to perform the movement (extremely) well. But there is more to applying it (pulling it off in sparring) than just being able to perform the movment well. A lot more. How do you learn to apply it in sparring? By sparring and trying to apply it.

In WCK, the classical curriculum (forms and drills) teach you and develop your ability to perform the movements, the techniquesof WCK. But they don't teach you or develop your ability to apply those things -- that only comes from practicing applying those things, from sparring.

k gledhill

12-23-2009, 07:43 AM

tan da isnt a technique, its part of a facing drill... but you knew that huh ? ;)

t_niehoff

12-23-2009, 08:04 AM

tan da isnt a technique, its part of a facing drill... but you knew that huh ? ;)

Funny, but the kuit (wing chun sam jiu: tan, bong, fook) talks about the three techniques of WCK: tan, bong, and fook. ;)

When you learn tan da, you learn a movement (a technique). You can practice that movement solo (point, form, etc.), with a dummy, or with a partner in drills (including chi sao, lop sao, etc.). Facing is a part of using that movement successfully.

Wayfaring

12-23-2009, 09:49 AM

IMO it is very difficult to learn from a book. It is not impossible, but you first need to have a very good base foundation in an art, and then you have to go at a real snail's pace through a particular technique and have a high quality training partner to do it with in a controlled and live environment. And the problem there is that it is virtually impossible to put the minute detail differences into a book that make the difference in a technique working in a live environment or not. You just can't capture that amount of subtle detail in pictures and words. A book + video is a little better if they go hand in hand. I've really only seen one set of those in any art though. And there are still again subtle differences in what makes a technique work in a live environment or not that it's just very very difficult to pick up even in that environment.

Really the absolute best is hands on instruction with the highest quality available teachers. Combined with a group of people to train with.

If you have a group of people to train things with without the high quality instruction, it's easy to develop bad habits, as training partners don't make you pay for mistakes in subtle fundamentals the same way a top notch instructor can. If you don't have a group of people but just the instructor, you have no test bed to try out things on - the gap is just too large to make anything work on someone with advanced skills.

Any kind of distance learning is hard.

Wayfaring

12-23-2009, 09:54 AM

tan da isnt a technique, its part of a facing drill... but you knew that huh ? ;)

You know with tan, bong, fuk, there's the technique, where the technique is "just a technique". Then there's the next level, where the "technique is no longer a technique". That's when the purposes of the tools come into play, like prying, opening or dispersing, covering. Then there's another level where the "technique is just a technique". This is where you are just using whichever tool is at hand and best suited to accomplish the goal, such as correct facing, distance, and control of space.

But you don't really get most of that via a book.

Ultimatewingchun

12-23-2009, 12:17 PM

Victor, that isn't application. You've just highlighted the problem -- people mistake techniques (practicing techniques) for application. Application is sparring (or, more accurately, what you are doing in sparring).

***OF COURSE it's applicartion (the video I posted), and since the very premise of the above remarks is false, there is no need for me to comment any further - other than to say that the application in sparring of the kinds of techniques shown in the vid - WHEN DONE CORRECTLY - begins with practice (ie.- drilling) and then OBVIOUSLY continues into sparring.

It's amazing how so many people get this concept and how some other people absolutely refuse to acknowledge it.

bennyvt

12-23-2009, 08:06 PM

as i have said sparing can teach you many things but you define he something will work he you can do it in sparing. It works if you can use it fighting. Sparing is not fighting. Yes its is very close but its not the same. You make fun me people because they say if you can chi sao you can fight. If you want to say that them sparing is an unrealistic situation and for people that have had real fights your whole if you spar you can fight is just funny. Wanna say your a fighter in fight. At the moment you are a spares. Boxing practices punches, footwnsl, bag drills, sparing and fighting.

k gledhill

12-23-2009, 08:59 PM

Funny, but the kuit (wing chun sam jiu: tan, bong, fook) talks about the three techniques of WCK: tan, bong, and fook. ;)

When you learn tan da, you learn a movement (a technique). You can practice that movement solo (point, form, etc.), with a dummy, or with a partner in drills (including chi sao, lop sao, etc.). Facing is a part of using that movement successfully.

funny yeah, how so many dont understand the kuit...ask someone what tan sao means and they talk about a begging hand :D a fook sao and they curl their hand up :D

when you learn tan you dont get it ...still... tan isnt meant to leave the line ...so how does it work to leave the line ? answer it doesnt , the line moves .

just becasue YOUR sifu taught you this doesnt make it right ;)

why do you think so many adopted different ways to TRY to make it work, fotwork , because if you stand in the middle and turn to face the punch the punch curls over and breaks your nose. If you try to be like Karate but one better and better and do 2 extended hands BUT your doint them TOGETHER your deluding yourself that this is what simultaneous means...sorry.
Delusions run rampant, simply becasue the SLT idea is lost from the very beginning ...many make the system into kuit moves... like I said just becasue your sifus chinese and writes books doesnt mean SH*T ...wasting time ? only you can find out...

Terence I know you dont understand simply by how you talk about VT, it doesnt mean your stupid or cant learn...I would wager a large sum of money you would ask the same thing others of 10-20 years with 'so-called' sifu have said..."why havent I heard this idea before ? "

you can live in the well till you croak [ sorry couldnt resist] but there is a more efficient fighting system out there, the tan sao never leaves the line 'nor does jum. Wheres your jum sao today ? in the 1st section of SLT ? no ? then what are you developing ?

wait the KUIT say I do tan bong lop chop so thats it ... I must tell WSL ghost to mention to Yip Man Terence says the Kuits mean something else...:D

it takes 5 minutes to show....5 years to train ....no secrets, just angles baby , angles.

When you are mistakenly shown tan da with turning as a block AND strike with 2 extended arms standing in the center of a guy....wrong.

tan/jum VT core strikes

Paul T England

12-24-2009, 04:38 AM

Anything by Alan Gibson, David Peterson, ip chun or Sam Kwok.

Application is down to the person but the books can help.

Merry Christmas

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

t_niehoff

12-24-2009, 01:24 PM

funny yeah, how so many dont understand the kuit...ask someone what tan sao means and they talk about a begging hand :D a fook sao and they curl their hand up :D

Tan and fook are actions.

when you learn tan you dont get it ...still... tan isnt meant to leave the line ...so how does it work to leave the line ? answer it doesnt , the line moves .

Tan or anything else "isn't meant" to do anything -- it all boils down to what you can do with it.

just becasue YOUR sifu taught you this doesnt make it right ;)

You'd be wise to tattoo that sentiment on YOU somewhere.

why do you think so many adopted different ways to TRY to make it work, fotwork , because if you stand in the middle and turn to face the punch the punch curls over and breaks your nose. If you try to be like Karate but one better and better and do 2 extended hands BUT your doint them TOGETHER your deluding yourself that this is what simultaneous means...sorry.
Delusions run rampant, simply becasue the SLT idea is lost from the very beginning ...many make the system into kuit moves... like I said just becasue your sifus chinese and writes books doesnt mean SH*T ...wasting time ? only you can find out...

Tan da means to tan while hitting, there are numerous ways to do that, some involving only one hand, some involving two hands, some involving one hand and a leg, etc.

I don't know what you mention my sifu. My views are my own, based on my own experience.

I will agree with one thing you said: "you can only find out. . . " -- but only by fighting, and with competent fighters. From everything you say, I can tell you don't do that. If you did, you wouldn't be spewing this nonsense.

Terence I know you dont understand simply by how you talk about VT, it doesnt mean your stupid or cant learn...I would wager a large sum of money you would ask the same thing others of 10-20 years with 'so-called' sifu have said..."why havent I heard this idea before ? "

you can live in the well till you croak [ sorry couldnt resist] but there is a more efficient fighting system out there, the tan sao never leaves the line 'nor does jum. Wheres your jum sao today ? in the 1st section of SLT ? no ? then what are you developing ?

There are many stupid ideas out there, and I am not surprised that I haven't heard them all. Yet, they all have one thing in common: we never see them actually working, we never see them in fighting.

wait the KUIT say I do tan bong lop chop so thats it ... I must tell WSL ghost to mention to Yip Man Terence says the Kuits mean something else...:D

WCK is WCK, it doesn't belong to Yip or to WSL. Nor do you or anyone speak for Yip or WSL. You, like all of us, only speak for yourself.

it takes 5 minutes to show....5 years to train ....no secrets, just angles baby , angles.

When you are mistakenly shown tan da with turning as a block AND strike with 2 extended arms standing in the center of a guy....wrong.

tan/jum VT core strikes

All I said tan da is a movement, an action, a technique and it is. Regardless of how you see it, it is still a movement, an action, a technique. Unless you think you can do something without moving. ;)

Oh, and since you seem hung up on WSL, maybe you should look about 0:30 to about 1:30 into this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnuKwRUCiAw

or here at 12 seconds into the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAqPPA8eK7w

Are those WSL's tan da's I see before me? ;)

Merry Christmas!

Phil Redmond

12-25-2009, 12:36 AM

Wow, when I do my uppergate tan in SLT to cover my head people say my tan is too high. But it seems like Si-Bak WSL does the same thing around :59 in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnuKwRUCiAw Hmm, maybe it's because fighters realize that a tan at solar plexus level won't cover a head shot. You'll notice that at 2:10 in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYm3hq1oD2w Si-Bak WSL uses a mid level tan but when stopping a head punch in the other clip his tan is in the uppergate. The clip of WSL on the dummy that Terence posted also shows a higher tan.
Hopefully this clip can explain why we do our tan in the uppergate in SLT and not in the middle gate like most do in SLT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A
I'm not saying that a tan at solar plexus level is wrong but neither is a tan at upper level gate.

Phil Redmond

12-25-2009, 11:00 AM

You should write a book Kev. :D
Anyway, there are different approaches to WC (I don't use WT since the T isn't pronounced in Cantonese). WSL said something like don't be a slave to WC. Forms, chi sao, drills, theory, etc. have their place. But there are people who don't know any of these that can fight. The best way to train for an event is the event itself. If you don't fight/compete with people outside of you school comfort zone you'll never know if what you do works for for real. We have a venue in Spanish Harlem NYC for people who would like to test their WC in full contact events. Hopefully more WC people will participate.

chusauli

12-25-2009, 11:17 AM

As I understand it, Tan Sao depends on the height of the opponent and the height of the attack...not the form, lineage, or teachings.

Phil Redmond

12-25-2009, 11:31 AM

As I understand it, Tan Sao depends on the height of the opponent and the height of the attack...not the form, lineage, or teachings.
If more WC people thought like instead of, I know the real way and you don't. WC could be a viable force in the martial arts world.

k gledhill

12-25-2009, 03:45 PM

WSL was talking about xing over from training to fighting...dont be bound by the drills when fighting, just fight ...

the TAN SAO is a strike angle , JUM SAO is its partner....many dont see the jum so can only make sense of a tan as a block...stop thinking of the height as the issue :D

tan and jum tan and jum tan and jum.......not just tan....jum.

it takes so much writing to explain a simple idea...

Phil Redmond

12-25-2009, 08:32 PM

WSL was talking about xing over from training to fighting...dont be bound by the drills when fighting, just fight ...
Semantics

the TAN SAO is a strike angle , JUM SAO is its partner....many dont see the jum so can only make sense of a tan as a block
Thank God I'm not one of those people

...stop thinking of the height as the issue :D
As a former full contact fighter that used WC I can't agree with that. An opponent's height has to be an issue

tan and jum tan and jum tan and jum.......not just tan....jum.
Agreed, it can also be tan jut. Just like in the Do

it takes so much writing to explain a simple idea...
Not if you think Wing Chun ;)

Phil Redmond

12-25-2009, 11:00 PM

The subject of this thread is WCK application. The definition of the word Martial
–adjective
1. inclined or disposed to war; warlike: The ancient Romans were a martial people.
2. of, suitable for, or associated with war or the armed forces: martial music.
3. characteristic of or befitting a warrior: a martial stride.
Origin:
1325–75; ME < L Mārtiālis of, belonging to Mars, equiv. to Mārti- (s. of Mārs) + -ālis -al 1
Wing Chun is a MARTIAL art. Wing Chun has the bad image of not creating MARTIAL(fighting) artists.
Theory is all good but is you can't stop that punch, kick, takedown, etc., you aren't doing
a MARTIAL (WAR) art.
I didn't want to say anything yet but as a former full contact fighter and trainer of fightesr I'm presently writing a book on WCK apps that I've used and my students Sifu Duncan Leung's, Sifu Keith Mazza's, Sifu Alan Orrs, students, etc, have used in real full contact event. I appreciate what other "think" but if you haven't applied your WC against people outside of your school comfort zone I'm really not hearing you. No disrespect intended

k gledhill

12-25-2009, 11:18 PM

good luck with the book, I cant write to save my life :D punctuation ? whats that:D

Phil Redmond

12-25-2009, 11:30 PM

good luck with the book, I cant write to save my life :D punctuation ? whats that:D
You saying my punctuation sucks? . . .:D
I think you could write a book. I've read you posts. ;)

Phil Redmond

12-25-2009, 11:34 PM

My buddy is looking for a book that has a lot of good application material in it. Any suggestions?
Theory is great but I'm all about apps for real situations.
You'll find some here: http://www.youtube.com/user/wckwoon
I'll be adding more every few days.

t_niehoff

12-27-2009, 07:59 AM

Theory is great but I'm all about apps for real situations.
You'll find some here: http://www.youtube.com/user/wckwoon
I'll be adding more every few days.

Phil, those aren't applications -- those are techniques. Application is doing it, it is sparring, fighting. Application means you are applying your WCK. Things presented as you-can-do-this or you-should-do-this when fighitng aren't applications, they are techniques. Only when you actually do them in sparring are they applications (you are then applying your WCK). It's the same for BJJ -- an arm bar from the guard isn't an application, it is a technique. You apply it when you do it in sparring.

In other words, if you aren't seeing realistic sparring/fighting, then you aren't seeing application.

Phil Redmond

12-27-2009, 09:03 AM

Phil, those aren't applications -- those are techniques. Application is doing it, it is sparring, fighting. Application means you are applying your WCK. Things presented as you-can-do-this or you-should-do-this when fighitng aren't applications, they are techniques. Only when you actually do them in sparring are they applications (you are then applying your WCK). It's the same for BJJ -- an arm bar from the guard isn't an application, it is a technique. You apply it when you do it in sparring.

In other words, if you aren't seeing realistic sparring/fighting, then you aren't seeing application.
OK techniques. Semantics :rolleyes:
I have clips of application as well.

Phil Redmond

12-27-2009, 09:26 AM

The thread is looking for books on WCK application. Call it what you want. I just checked webster and the word application was applicable here. ;)

HumbleWCGuy

12-27-2009, 11:58 AM

My view is that WCK "application" can't be learned from a book -- just like you can't learn surfing "application" from a book. You learn to surf by being shown a few things and then hitting the waves. Sort of like chi sao (WCK with the training wheels on) -- you can't learn it from a book.

What is presented as "WCK application" in books, articles, and in classes is typically unrealistic (it won't work in fighting, particularly against anyone with good atributes or skills) or is low-percentage and high-risk. Unless a person has a significant amount of fighting experience (particularly with persons of good attributes and/or skills) they won't be able to appreciate that: a big problem is that nonfighters or persons without significant experience believe they have the ability to assess things pertaining to fighting. They can't, but they don't know they can't (unconscious incompetence). And this is why that stuff continues to get "passed on". Before you accept ANYTHING as valid, you should expect to see it actually used in fighting. If they can't or won't show it in fighting, then you know it's nonsense.

Keep in mind that when you practice unrealistic things, you aren't getting better but are actually getting worse -- you are now practicing to fail.

He (my friend) is an assistant instructor in WCK, full instructor in JKD, and a purple/Brown in BJJ. He just wanted to get a more classical take than mine and to have a reference book as we don't live in the same city. Books and DVDs are invaluable resources in that vein. Any fool with 3 months of training understands that you have to practice and evaluate techniques from books. Nobody is suggesting that someone is just going to read a book and become an expert.

He wanted to see something other than a book with the forms: a book that suggest some alternate defenses against a choke, a wrist grab, or a take down. He is looking for a book for reference and perspective's sake so that he isn't a carbon copy of his instructors.