Shaolin / Internal Martial Arts / Others

[kfson]

In Chinese martial arts there is Shaolin based forms and the Internal forms- Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, etc. Are there other Chinese martial arts that are not in any way related to Shaolin or Internal?
If so, what are the sources? Are they regional religion derived?

[David Jamieson]

In Chinese martial arts there is Shaolin based forms and the Internal forms- Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, etc. Are there other Chinese martial arts that are not in any way related to Shaolin or Internal?
If so, what are the sources? Are they regional religion derived?

wudang, emei, tan tui, mizhong, and so on.

Although, I personally don't support the whole external / internal distinction. Especially not after millenia of interchange and diaspora of kungfu.

Also, it is difficult to find any tcma that has not in some way been touched by shaolin. lol even hsing i, tai chi and bagua can be in a shaolin version.

the hsing i I learned came from a shaolin teacher.

This is a very broad question in short. But yes, there are many family styles that are conglomerates of the accumulated knowledge of the contributors to the style, there are regional versions of larger pais and so on.

If you are intent in finding out, be prepared to spend years doing so, there is no neat and tidy list to reference.

[kfson]

wudang, emei, tan tui, mizhong, and so on.




A quick search seems to trace all the above back to some kind of Buddhist or Taoist Temple.

Thanks.

[MasterKiller]

A quick search seems to trace all the above back to some kind of Buddhist or Taoist Temple.

Thanks.

Tan tui is muslim.

[kfson]

Tan tui is muslim.

My quick search for Tan Tui was from this source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1n_Tu%C7%90

[SanHeChuan]

What are you really trying to get at? Because the basic asumption of your question is flawed.

Try Hakka kung fu
Hakka Kuen, Southern Praying Mantis, Bak Mei and Dragon Kung Fu.

Bajiquan, Piguaquan, Liu He Quan, Have muslim origins with the Hui people.
Zhaquan, Qishiquan, Huihui Shiba Zhou, and Xingyi would all also fall under the banner of Jiaomenquan or Mulism Boxing.

And Shaolin arts didn't come from Shaolin, the people brought them to Shaolin. Not to mention, many claimed a Shaolin connection when there was none.


My quick search for Tan Tui was from this source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1n_Tu%C7%90


Tantui
Main article: Tán Tuǐ
Tantui ("flicking or spring leg") is a style originally from Turpan usually used as basic training for Zhaquan (see above). Originally, there were 28 lines of tantui, one for each letter of the Arabic alphabet; however, later on, the last 18, which were comparatively complex, were merged into two forms called Tuiquanshi (Chinese: 腿拳勢), still practiced in Zhaquan.

Tantui has been adapted and modified by many other styles of martial arts for basic training, including other styles of changquan, the Song style of xingyiquan, and others. Tantui also exists as its own style in Shandong province (where it is written as Chinese: 潭腿, not 彈腿, however).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Chinese_martial_arts



A quick search seems
You'll never get at the truth like that. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

My quick search for Tan Tui was from this source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1n_Tu%C7%90

Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but if you are just doing quick Wikipedia searches to get your information, you aren't exactly looking very hard for the truth, are you?

[kfson]

What are you really trying to get at? Because the basic asumption of your question is flawed.

Try Hakka kung fu
Hakka Kuen, Southern Praying Mantis, Bak Mei and Dragon Kung Fu.

Bajiquan, Piguaquan, Liu He Quan, Have muslim origins with the Hui people.
Zhaquan, Qishiquan, Huihui Shiba Zhou, and Xingyi would all also fall under the banner of Jiaomenquan or Mulism Boxing.

And Shaolin arts didn't come from Shaolin, the people brought them to Shaolin. Not to mention, many claimed a Shaolin connection when there was none.






You'll never get at the truth like that. :rolleyes:

Please point out to everyone the basic assumption I made.

[kfson]

Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but if you are just doing quick Wikipedia searches to get your information, you aren't exactly looking very hard for the truth, are you?


You are correct, sir. Weakipedia is filled with bold faced lies.

[SanHeChuan]

In Chinese martial arts there is Shaolin based forms and the Internal forms

Well first off your mixing and matching your dualities.
It's Shaolin vs. Wudang or Omei or Hua, or whatever mountain, or External vs. Internal.

The second is buying into the overly simplistic and crudely constructed categories of either.

The third is the implied assumption that your chosen two categories make up the majority of kung fu to be found.

If you clarified what or why you’re looking for, the answer will be easier to find.

You could also look into the Tibet kung fu: Bak Mei, Lions Roar
Or Mongolian wrestling, how about Shuai jiao.

[kfson]

Well first of you mixing a matching your dualities.
It's Shaolin vs. Wudang or Omei or Hua, or whatever mountain, or External vs. Internal.

The second is buying into the overly simplistic and crudely constructed categories of either.

The third is the implied assumption that your chosen two categories make up the majority of kung fu to be found.

If you clarified what or why you’re looking for, the answer will be easier to find.

You could also look into the Tibet kung fu: Bak Mei, Lions Roar
Or Mongolian wrestling, how about Shuai jiao.


Wow, I have been corrected. You, sir, are a master.

[SanHeChuan]

Wow, I have been corrected. You, sir, are a master.

You are welcome. :p

[David Jamieson]

A quick search seems to trace all the above back to some kind of Buddhist or Taoist Temple.

Thanks.

Like I inferred, you will learn nothing from cursory glances, quick searches etc.
If you really want to know, it is going to take time.

A lot more time than throwing it out to the internet. There is plenty of tcma practice that hasn't even seen a digital file yet. :)

I've been a fairly diligent practitioner for quite some time and I see new stuff to this day.
That's my almost 2 decades of practice and experience vs your quick search on the internet.

you're welcome.

[kfson]

Like I inferred, you will learn nothing from cursory glances, quick searches etc.
If you really want to know, it is going to take time.

A lot more time than throwing it out to the internet. There is plenty of tcma practice that hasn't even seen a digital file yet. :)

I've been a fairly diligent practitioner for quite some time and I see new stuff to this day.
That's my almost 2 decades of practice and experience vs your quick search on the internet.

you're welcome.

Your arrogance led you to believe I would say thank you. Thank you anyway.

[SanHeChuan]

Your arrogance led you to believe I would say thank you. Thank you anyway.

Your arrogance led you to forget you already had. Or perhaps you just glossed over it in a quick search.
:rolleyes:

A quick search seems to trace all the above back to some kind of Buddhist or Taoist Temple.

Thanks.

[bawang]

In Chinese martial arts there is Shaolin based forms and the Internal forms- Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, etc. Are there other Chinese martial arts that are not in any way related to Shaolin or Internal?
If so, what are the sources? Are they regional religion derived?

one handed saber techniques come from mongolians. the dao is a mongolian weapon
two handed saber has influences from japanese tecqniues
the wind fire wheel also comes from mongolians (its a boomerang with blades)
my friend in china showed me shuai jiao and started using mongolian words i was like man wtflol

[David Jamieson]

one handed saber techniques come from mongolians. the dao is a mongolian weapon
two handed saber has influences from japanese tecqniues
the wind fire wheel also comes from mongolians (its a boomerang with blades)
my friend in china showed me shuai jiao and started using mongolian words i was like man wtflol

There is a mongol lineage of shuai jiao.

Maybe "youknowwho" can expound on that. :)

he's the resident throw-horn guy.

[Yum Cha]

Perhaps you can look at it two ways. There is the romantic version, which is what carries the day for most people, about the Damo going to Shaolin and spawning the arts that spread out around the world. Along that road you can read about the 5 masters, and all the other fairytales, myths and legends.

Now of course, the reality is different. People studied MA in temples, sure, but also in villages, clans, families, etc. There was a status to being able to say you learned your kung fu from the Monks. More people learned from monks than the monks taught, if you catch my drift. Lots of fearsome fighters created a 'backstory' as human nature would dictate, but they likewise had to produced the goods.

Take it across 10 generations of mix-n-match and you can see certain threads, we call them things like internal, external, hakka, short arm southern, long arm northern. You have buddhist, taoist, muslim, influences, which I generally find focussed on breathing and attitude, as in physical and mental, as opposed to the 'techniques' painting with an incredibly broad brush.

If you want to research Martial Arts genesis, you'll find if very difficult because of this mixing of myth and reality. It seems that there is a prevailing opinion in this circle that history should be a lesson, and there's no sense in letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

Granted, the Chinese had medicine and currency when the Anglo Saxons were smashing each other over the head with lumps of wood, but they weren't magic, lots of Monks were just guys at a loose end looking for his next meal, maybe wanted by the cops and shaving his head for sanctuary.... Some temples were pious, some were men's homes, others were hotbeds of revolution...

The names of temples often refer to regions and compounds, as opposed to specific buildings. The only way to get to know this stuff, is to unravel it thread by thread.

[kfson]

Perhaps you can look at it two ways. There is the romantic version, which is what carries the day for most people, about the Damo going to Shaolin and spawning the arts that spread out around the world. Along that road you can read about the 5 masters, and all the other fairytales, myths and legends.

Now of course, the reality is different. People studied MA in temples, sure, but also in villages, clans, families, etc. There was a status to being able to say you learned your kung fu from the Monks. More people learned from monks than the monks taught, if you catch my drift. Lots of fearsome fighters created a 'backstory' as human nature would dictate, but they likewise had to produced the goods.

Take it across 10 generations of mix-n-match and you can see certain threads, we call them things like internal, external, hakka, short arm southern, long arm northern. You have buddhist, taoist, muslim, influences, which I generally find focussed on breathing and attitude, as in physical and mental, as opposed to the 'techniques' painting with an incredibly broad brush.

If you want to research Martial Arts genesis, you'll find if very difficult because of this mixing of myth and reality. It seems that there is a prevailing opinion in this circle that history should be a lesson, and there's no sense in letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

Granted, the Chinese had medicine and currency when the Anglo Saxons were smashing each other over the head with lumps of wood, but they weren't magic, lots of Monks were just guys at a loose end looking for his next meal, maybe wanted by the cops and shaving his head for sanctuary.... Some temples were pious, some were men's homes, others were hotbeds of revolution...

The names of temples often refer to regions and compounds, as opposed to specific buildings. The only way to get to know this stuff, is to unravel it thread by thread.


Ah, from the clear thinking City of Oz.

[David Jamieson]

Your arrogance led you to believe I would say thank you. Thank you anyway.

lol. I earned my arrogance. :) and am still earning it.

[kfson]

lol. I earned my arrogance. :) and am still earning it.

You are indeed.

[David Jamieson]

You are indeed.

yeesh, yer coming off as a bit of a jerk too.

you'll fit right in here.

You must be charming in school. :rolleyes:

[bawang]

why do people obsess over imaginary kung fu legends when there are real heros?
general yue fei destroyed entire manchu cities
general zhao kuanyin went from soldier to emperror
qijiguang rebuilt the great wall and killed tens of thousands of japanese pirates (many who were samurai) with a army of freshly trained farmers

i respect the common chinese cannonfodder soldier 10 times more than some monks in the mountains who hasnt fought for the last 400 years

[Lucas]

dont forget that guy with the beard, hes a hero now too

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqseCRFx7k0

*sheds single tear down cheek

[Fa Xing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqseCRFx7k0

*sheds single tear down cheek

That looks like the Chinese version of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Washington_Crossing_the_Delaware.png

[Lucas]

did you know washington was a clairvoiant (sp) and supposedly had a vision that crossing the deleware would be successful...

i read this in: The Holographic Universe.

im sure the reference is in there....but im not positive as i dont have a copy of the book anymore, but it was full of documented references for most of the historical claims.

[Yum Cha]

did you know washington was a clairvoiant (sp) and supposedly had a vision that crossing the deleware would be successful...

i read this in: The Holographic Universe.

im sure the reference is in there....but im not positive as i dont have a copy of the book anymore, but it was full of documented references for most of the historical claims.

Yea, eating all that reefer will give you visions all right...

Look at him in that painting, he's whacked off his scone!

[Lucas]

Yea, eating all that reefer will give you visions all right...

Look at him in that painting, he's whacked off his scone!

lol no doubt. hell if you gonna do it, do it in style.

when will a president ever lead troops into battle again?

[bawang]

washington doesnt have manly foot long beard
he is weak like womans

[Lucas]

washington doesnt have manly foot long beard
he is weak like womans

its all the white wigs and powder........

[Yum Cha]

washington doesnt have manly foot long beard
he is weak like womans


Yea, not like ZZ Top.

[Scott R. Brown]

Like I inferred, you will learn nothing from cursory glances, quick searches etc.
If you really want to know, it is going to take time.

A lot more time than throwing it out to the internet. There is plenty of tcma practice that hasn't even seen a digital file yet. :)

I've been a fairly diligent practitioner for quite some time and I see new stuff to this day.
That's my almost 2 decades of practice and experience vs your quick search on the internet.

you're welcome.


Your arrogance led you to believe I would say thank you. Thank you anyway.


lol. I earned my arrogance. :) and am still earning it.


You are indeed.

Hi kfson,

Give David a break, having only trained for "almost 2 decades", he is still a beginner!

He will mellow out as he gains more experience I am sure!:)


washington doesnt have manly foot long beard
he is weak like womans

What have the ROMANS got to do with it? And I would maybe get the speech impediment taken care of!:)

[Yum Cha]

lol no doubt. hell if you gonna do it, do it in style.

when will a president ever lead troops into battle again?

Well, let some of those boys in Iraq get their hands on GW, and he might just get the chance...mayhaps with a bit of persuasion...

ex-presidents count, right?

[Scott R. Brown]

What history books are you guys reading? Washington was not president during the Revolutionary War, he was a general. And I doubt his boat was the first one across the Delaware.

Even Caesar only led his soldiers in dire circumstances!

[Yum Cha]

What history books are you guys reading? Washington was not president during the Revolutionary War, he was a general. And I doubt his boat was the first one across the Delaware.

Even Caesar only led his soldiers in dire circumstances!

YIKES! Busted by the literal police!

[Scott R. Brown]

YIKES! Busted by the literal police!

Move along son.....I'll let you off with a warning this time. But the next time I will be forced to inform your parents!:p

[Lucas]

and heres to learning not to speak historical untruths with scott on board!

[kfson]

Hi kfson,

Give David a break, having only trained for "almost 2 decades", he is still a beginner!
He will mellow out as he gains more experience I am sure!:)



What have the ROMANS got to do with it? And I would maybe get the speech impediment taken care of!:)

Someone needs to give him his gold watch.

[SanHeChuan]

Someone needs to give him his gold watch.

Troll. :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

hey kfson, with an attitude like yours, what is it you expect to get?

cause the doors are hitting your ass pretty consistently here.

[Skip J.]

What history books are you guys reading? Washington was not president during the Revolutionary War, he was a general. And I doubt his boat was the first one across the Delaware.

Even Caesar only led his soldiers in dire circumstances!
Ummmm Scott;

Well, I seem to remember one of those dire circumstances was just about one of the last battles with Pompey's son where the tenth was not quite getting the job done and Caesar was about to lose it all.... He went up to the line and "wielded" a sword long enough - after 20 years away from the front line - to force the old vets to pick up the pace to keep him alive, their main charge in life. Still, he had to face all of those in-shape vets across the line from him and survive the day.... pretty tough old guy.... kinda sad the way it turned out in the end! Sorta reminds me of Patton I guess...

[Scott R. Brown]

Ummmm Scott;

Well, I seem to remember one of those dire circumstances was just about one of the last battles with Pompey's son where the tenth was not quite getting the job done and Caesar was about to lose it all.... He went up to the line and "wielded" a sword long enough - after 20 years away from the front line - to force the old vets to pick up the pace to keep him alive, their main charge in life. Still, he had to face all of those in-shape vets across the line from him and survive the day.... pretty tough old guy.... kinda sad the way it turned out in the end! Sorta reminds me of Patton I guess...

Oh yeah....he also did the same versus Vercingetorix in Gaul at the battle of Alesia when the Gauls outside his outer defensive works almost broke through.

Alexander, though, was well known for leading his troops from the front lines.

[taai gihk yahn]

Oh yeah....he also did the same versus Vercingetorix in Gaul at the battle of Alesia
Alesia?!? Nobody even knows where Alesia is!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Alesia?!? Nobody even knows where Alesia is!!!

Duh!!! It's in Gaul....don't you know ANYTHING???:eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

it's probably because it's HW8 incognetto.... sounds like one of his "questions" he would post.

[taai gihk yahn]

Duh!!! It's in Gaul....don't you know ANYTHING???:eek:
well I am not alone here...http://mightygodking.com/images/asterix/asterix1/asterix89.jpg

[Scott R. Brown]

well I am not alone here...

I understand; I appologize for not being more clear!:o

Let me see if I can help out a bit:

Draw a straight line from Admagetodrig to Agedincum. Go along the line approximately half way and then move just a little bit south. Look for the plateau, THAT is Alesia!

[David Jamieson]

Clearly you don't read enough about the SPQR.
:p

[Skip J.]

Oh yeah....he also did the same versus Vercingetorix in Gaul at the battle of Alesia when the Gauls outside his outer defensive works almost broke through.

Alexander, though, was well known for leading his troops from the front lines.
Oh yes.. but he was a bit younger then.... more of a strategy tactic even tho still a last ditch survival "action"...

Mercy! Don't you just love Alexander???? A not quite Greek who was more Greek than the Greeks???? Still his death wasn't while fighting on the line, but because of it... And, since Cleopatra was a Ptolemy, then Caesars son was from the bloodline of a general of Alexanders' several hundred years before...

I'm not sure this is quite on topic tho...

[David Jamieson]

Oh yes.. but he was a bit younger then.... more of a strategy tactic even tho still a last ditch survival "action"...

Mercy! Don't you just love Alexander???? A not quite Greek who was more Greek than the Greeks???? Still his death wasn't while fighting on the line, but because of it... And, since Cleopatra was a Ptolemy, then Caesars son was from the bloodline of a general of Alexanders' several hundred years before...

I'm not sure this is quite on topic tho...

Alexander was a Macedonian (Alexander III of Macedon). But he was also all the other nationalities as well because he put them all under his boot... except for India because his Generals quit on him before they could get in there and crush it as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Brian Kennedy has some very goods books on this subject.
There are a few other authors out there too.

[David Jamieson]

Brian Kennedy has some very goods books on this subject.
There are a few other authors out there too.

Indeed, the works of Cicero are rather good!


And of course, there is no underselling Plutarch's 'Lives' which has all the biographical info on the great ancient warrior kings /philosopher kings et al.

Here's the chunk about Caesar:
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/caesar.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am referring to the actual thread David.
LOL !

[Skip J.]

Indeed, the works of Cicero are rather good!


And of course, there is no underselling Plutarch's 'Lives' which has all the biographical info on the great ancient warrior kings /philosopher kings et al.

Here's the chunk about Caesar:
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/caesar.html
Thanks David!

[Skip J.]

Brian Kennedy has some very goods books on this subject.
There are a few other authors out there too.
The History of CMA Training Manuals by Brian is just excellent! And others of his would be ???

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Jingwu one will probably be very good too
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1583942424/sr=1-2/qid=1261145198/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1261145198&sr=1-2

[Skip J.]

The Jingwu one will probably be very good too
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1583942424/sr=1-2/qid=1261145198/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1261145198&sr=1-2
Definitely!

No link to buy it yet I guess???

[sanjuro_ronin]

Definitely!

No link to buy it yet I guess???

Nope, Brian did a thread on a a part of it though...