wing chun's core

[Hendrik]

Wing Chun core in the kuen kuit --- Come accept goes return, using silence to lead action.


This is an extremely important key for advance development and must be taken really seriously because this is the core of all applications.



Come accept goes return means totaly effortless or no resistance.

Silence is the nature state one will experience after one can quiet one's mind or not attached to thoughts ( notice it is NOT ATTACH instead of Suppress the mind to stop thinking.) Thus, it could create unlimited applications or creations.


This type of attainment is very advance. The level is even higher then those who have just seen the Buddha Nature or the original face.

See, those who just seen the Buddha Nature might know what is Buddha Nature however they still need to further fine tune. IE. the six patriach of Chan hide away after seen the Buddha nature for six teen years to fine tune himself.


Thus, with these type of Effortless and Silence attainment, this is real Dao.
It is real simple but unhausted. it is beyond shape and intention and center line and Qi.
It is the state of Let Go and Let God be.

The whole life is transform when one get there or even if one is just started to getting there.
This is a much superior state then handling the medirians or projection or strategy...etc because this is AS IT IS without using the Yee or intention which is post birth intellect.

[t_niehoff]

Happy Holidays, Hendrik!

For a different perspective:

The WCK kuit you refer to is "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung" (stay as he comes, escort as he goes, charge in when contact is lost). Your "using silence to lead action" is not part of any WCK kuit (at least not in YM or YKS) that I'm aware of. The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

It is impossible to fight (to use your WCK) and not use effort (often all the effort you have!) or to not meet resistance (unless you sucker punch someone!). Any theory that presupposes otherwise is unrealistic.

A fighting method must be practical -- easily put into practice -- to be effective. It is hardly practical to need to attain buddhist enlightenment before making your art work.

As one of my training partners once observed: some people want to skip the part about learning to fight, and couldn't get out of a headlock, yet believe they can go directly to enlightened, warrior monk stage.

Can you get out of a headlock effortlessly and without resistance? Do you know of anyone who can?

[bennyvt]

we learnt it as recieve what comes, follow what goes, attack when disengaged. All things in vt have certain rules, use the least amount of force possibile in defence, be relaxed as possible. But sometimes the least amount needed is all your force. This is the problem with the whole be completly relaxed, dont use strength idea. The more strength you use the more muscle fibres activated meaning the muscle is tense. The stronger you are the less muscle fibres needed so you can be more relaxed.

[Vajramusti]

Good discussion of different perspectives... Hendrik, TN and Bennyvt- without ad hominem
remarks.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

I usually don’t talk WCK kuit; but only to my students…

That WCK kuit talks about defeating movements with positing and structure as dictated in the forms with no deviation, one should be highly aware of those two attributes when under pressure. When mastered, your thoughts or emotion become non-existent, then one can truly beat his opponent with just good timing…

I believe that is one of the most serious WCK kuit, and I follow it every time my wing chun doors are open…

Thanks for posting it…


Ali Rahim

[Hendrik]

Happy Holidays, Hendrik!

For a different perspective:

The WCK kuit you refer to is "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung" (stay as he comes, escort as he goes, charge in when contact is lost). Your "using silence to lead action" is not part of any WCK kuit (at least not in YM or YKS) that I'm aware of. The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

It is impossible to fight (to use your WCK) and not use effort (often all the effort you have!) or to not meet resistance (unless you sucker punch someone!). Any theory that presupposes otherwise is unrealistic.

A fighting method must be practical -- easily put into practice -- to be effective. It is hardly practical to need to attain buddhist enlightenment before making your art work.

As one of my training partners once observed: some people want to skip the part about learning to fight, and couldn't get out of a headlock, yet believe they can go directly to enlightened, warrior monk stage.

Can you get out of a headlock effortlessly and without resistance? Do you know of anyone who can?



Happy Holiday Terence!


1, effortless means " flowing down stream instead of struggle going up stream" So it must not be mistatken as day dreaming or fantasying and it doesnt imply no training. but in fact much more details training then most.

2, Silence means the state beyond Thinking. meaning the thoughts doesnt cause the body to run habitual / automatic.


As for get out of a headlock, why one has to get in? why one has to get out? why....

there are millions of things could happen and one can do if one is not lock oneself into a mind set of there is only one thing one must do.

[t_niehoff]

Happy Holiday Terence!


Thanks, Hendrik!



1, effortless means " flowing down stream instead of struggle going up stream" So it must not be mistatken as day dreaming or fantasying and it doesnt imply no training. but in fact much more details training then most.


It only creates communication problems when we start redefining words. This is what "effortless" means: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effortless
I think your metaphor of "flowing downstream instead of struggle going upstream" isn't really applicable to fighting (using our WCK). While there are instances where you can "go with the flow" (so to speak), there are a great many others where that simply isn't possible.

Skill can be defined as your ability to bring about a desired result with maximum certainty and using minimum effort and/or time. So what you are really talking about with "effortless" is simply part (minimum effort) of being skillful.



2, Silence means the state beyond Thinking. meaning the thoughts doesnt cause the body to run habitual / automatic.


I'm not certain I understand you. Habit or what you refer to as "automatic" are actions/behaviors that don't require conscious (thinking) intervention. In Maslow's heirarchy of learning (unconscious incimpetence, conscious competence, conscious competence,unconscious competence), for instance, unconscious competence is when we can perform our skill without thinking. That level is achieved through lots of deliberate practice (doing the activity so much that it becomes "second nature"). This is nothing unique to WCK (since Maslow obviously isn't talking only about learning in WCK).



As for get out of a headlock, why one has to get in? why one has to get out? why....


Do you think it wise to train for what is realistically likely to happen in fighting and for when things haven't gone our way?



there are millions of things could happen and one can do if one is not lock oneself into a mind set of there is only one thing one must do.

I don't know why you are talking about locking yourself into a mindset. My headlock example was to illustrate that what is primary is skill (the ability, for example, to get out of a headlock). Everything else, including using minimum effort to what you call "silence", is part and parcel of that skill. You can't develop those things -- effortlessness or silence -- apart from the skill: they only come from and through the skill-development process itself. All athletes recognize this.

[Hendrik]

It only creates communication problems when we start redefining words. -----


communication for me is communicating and not seeing problems but communicating to reach a mutual understanding.



In this case, I choose not to further communicate since we belongs to two different species. Thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The essence of every MA is "maximum result with minimal effort".

[t_niehoff]

It only creates communication problems when we start redefining words. -----


communication for me is communicating and not seeing problems but communicating to reach a mutual understanding.


Our ideas are communicated through words with a shared meaning. That shared meaning is essential, otherwise we would be talking about two different things. So when you redefine the meaning of words, all it does is obfuscate your intended meaning. And, I wouldn't think that advances your goal of reaching a "mutual understanding."



In this case, I choose not to further communicate since we belongs to two different species. Thanks.

You're welcome.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Interesting discussion.

I'm seeing two interpretations of effortlessness here - effortlessness of body (T Niehoff/Bennyvt) and effortlessness of mind (Hendrik/A. Rahim.) Neither really contradicts the other, in fact they're mighty complementary to one another.

I relate the effortlessness of mind in part to having no expectations/anticipations based on ego. If you expect or anticipate, you can get fooled and foiled. Think of the times when we've struggled with a lock or throw, or tried over and over to land a preferred technique, or expected our opponent to zig when instead they zagged. These mistakes say less about physical effort than mental effort, ie "forcing" the situation to fit your mindset rather than molding your mindset according to the situation.

BTW from the Daoist side of things, leave the survival mind be, just clear the path for it to thrive. This will help allow the body to exert the optimal effort needed at any moment.

[t_niehoff]

The essence of every MA is "maximum result with minimal effort".

Not only that, but it is the essence of any physical skill. No one tries to find ways to make their performance require more effort!

That's the point I was trying to make to Hendrik -- these things he talks about, "silence", "effortlessness", etc. are nothing unique, but are commonplace in every form of athletics.

[t_niehoff]

Interesting discussion.

I'm seeing two interpretations of effortlessness here - effortlessness of body (T Niehoff/Bennyvt) and effortlessness of mind (Hendrik/A. Rahim.) Neither really contradicts the other, in fact they're mighty complementary to one another.


Instead of looking at it that way, look at it as effortlessness of performance (of a skill). That effortlessness involves both mind and body, and it comes from deliberate practice -- and you can't have one without the other. They are not two separate things.

[kfson]

The closest WCK kuit is "Yee Ching Jai Dong" (use stillness to overcome movement).

I usually don’t talk WCK kuit; but only to my students…

That WCK kuit talks about defeating movements with positing and structure as dictated in the forms with no deviation, one should be highly aware of those two attributes when under pressure. When mastered, your thoughts or emotion become non-existent, then one can truly beat his opponent with just good timing…

I believe that is one of the most serious WCK kuit, and I follow it every time my wing chun doors are open…

Thanks for posting it…


Ali Rahim

السلام عليكم

Do you also use Tao principles of substantial and insubstantial?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

That's the point I was trying to make to Hendrik -- these things he talks about, "silence", "effortlessness", etc. are nothing unique, but are commonplace in every form of athletics.

I agree, they're not unique to Martial Arts, and most athletes (I'd say every professional athlete) develops a functional level of "silence" within their activity.

It's not every athlete who extends that into their life, though. No one's saying they have to, but I think Hendrik's saying they can.

One interesting sidestory is the Iron Man Triathlon and its counterparts. Many athletes participate in these events for the first time with competition in mind, then return over and over again for spiritual reasons; it's a not-oft talked about fact that many participants have mystical experiences during the competition.

I'd be curious to see how these people are engaging and contributing to society now compared to before they did the event.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not only that, but it is the essence of any physical skill. No one tries to find ways to make their performance require more effort!

That's the point I was trying to make to Hendrik -- these things he talks about, "silence", "effortlessness", etc. are nothing unique, but are commonplace in every form of athletics.

Indeed, the human body naturally tries to find the "easiest" way to do anything.
The way that takes the less effort and the less amount of energy.
When a 100 meter runner trains, he tries to run is the most efficient and effective manner possible for him, so that he runs as fast as he can with the least amount of effort possible.

[anerlich]

This, I have heard:

For technical practice, in general, you want a state of self observation, concentrated inner focus on what your body is doing.

For competition (including friendly sparring matches or rolls) and fighting, you want an externally directed, diffuse focus on your partner/opponent and the field of play/combat in general.

It goes wrong when your focus goes on observing and judging your own performance rather than observing the external events and reacting to them preconsciously.

Better to use imperative self-talk ('underhook, wrist control, head in the pocket") than declarative ("I feel slow, he punches hard").

Easier said than done, I guess.

IMO "receive what comes, follow what goes, rush in on loss of contact" fits into the former category. "Use stillness to overcome movement" veers a little close to the second.

FWIW.


As for get out of a headlock, why one has to get in? why one has to get out? why....

Sounds like someone's never had to try to escape a decent headlock control.


there are millions of things could happen and one can do if one is not lock oneself into a mind set of there is only one thing one must do.

Very Zen, but you have to look at the percentages, some things are more likely to happen than others, and some reactions have a better chance of working then others. Soldiers and Special Operations police whose lives depend on their training, are more concerned with survival than enlightenment, and don't have the luxury of second chances are generally trained to perform an IA, immediate action, in particular situations, something that will give them the best chance of handling the situation. You can get real technical and talk about OODA loops, etc. Advanced training deals with options if the IA goes wrong, which should happen more rarely than if another action was performed. Waiting and reacting to whichever one of the million things that could happen puts you behind the action, and IA gives you the best chance to get in front.


it's a not-oft talked about fact that many participants have mystical experiences during the competition.

That's not silence. That's something else.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This, I have heard:
...
Better to use imperative self-talk ('underhook, wrist control, head in the pocket") than declarative ("I feel slow, he punches hard").


Nicely put.

[Hendrik]

I know I am pushing it when I bring up silence.

Yes, Silence exist beyond thoughts. That is a state which by passed Thinking and logic. However, this state is also not blind by the habit or daily programming. That is the place where one can function in and out of the box without hinderence.

It is not everyone's piece of cake but it does exist. Got nothing to do with enligthenment or Buddhist monks... or spiritual or religion or east or west or modern or ancient or nationality.
Got to do with every one has it as soon as one know and have cultivate how to enter into silence. there body heal, mind rest, awareness shappen, energy platform surface....... naturally, no intention is needed no spinning of mind is needed it is with ease.

It is just plain human ability which is blank out or and block out more and more in today's world. Where the belief is everything needs to be struggle or else doesnt exist.

[Hardwork108]

I think your metaphor of "flowing downstream instead of struggle going upstream" isn't really applicable to fighting (using our WCK).
IMHO, Hendrik's WCK is different from your "WCK"!

]

[Hardwork108]

That's the point I was trying to make to Hendrik -- these things he talks about, "silence", "effortlessness", etc. are nothing unique, but are commonplace in every form of athletics.

IMHO, your definition of Henrik's "silence" does not go deep enough.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Anerlich: your imperative vs. declarative self-talk idea is a useful one for people who self-talk during combat. I propose, though, that not everyone self-talks, nor is it needed to be successful in athletic endeavors.

[Ali. R]

السلام عليكم

Do you also use Tao principles of substantial and insubstantial?


I’ve been doing wing chun for over three decades now and wing chun is most definitely a solid art, in which should flow like water and not fall or roll like boulders in a canyon…

Although I’m a Muslim and my daily life consist of prayer five times a day with a chapter both from the seven books of the hadith and Qur’an, what I’m saying is; my life is nothing more then Islam…

But I’ve found it hard not to have some good understanding in Taoism, to really help me put this art in perspective. Wing Chun is an art that is full of good solid substance and it is hard to contain like water without a glass, if one don’t have some understanding of Taoism (only when I train)…

My teacher is Muslim but understands the way of Taoism, so I was taught accordantly….


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

My teacher was born in Hong Kong (Woo Ching) and understanding the two worked for him as well…


Ali Rahim

[bennyvt]

with the running idea. He uses all the effort he has. It is not effortless. But by learning to use the strength, skill, etc he goes quicker them before. I mean by learning vt and the princibles you make yourself quicker, stronger, etc. He you only need half yous effort to block a certain block by a guy the same size as you. When a massive guy does it you will use all your force to equal theirs. Hopefully you dont have to use all of it so you can be relaxed. Like A shot putter uses all his force in the most economical way to produce the best results.

[k gledhill]

your view only depends on where you are on the path up the vt mountain...keep climbing:D

[t_niehoff]

I know I am pushing it when I bring up silence.

Yes, Silence exist beyond thoughts. That is a state which by passed Thinking and logic. However, this state is also not blind by the habit or daily programming. That is the place where one can function in and out of the box without hinderence.

It is not everyone's piece of cake but it does exist. Got nothing to do with enligthenment or Buddhist monks... or spiritual or religion or east or west or modern or ancient or nationality.
Got to do with every one has it as soon as one know and have cultivate how to enter into silence. there body heal, mind rest, awareness shappen, energy platform surface....... naturally, no intention is needed no spinning of mind is needed it is with ease.

It is just plain human ability which is blank out or and block out more and more in today's world. Where the belief is everything needs to be struggle or else doesnt exist.

Hendrik, I know that is what you believe but all we need to do is look at how athletic development really works -- by looking at top-level athletes in any field. Skill in anything comes from lots of deliberate practice (the 10,000 hour rule), from doing that skill over and over again. There is not some "silence" or "state" that once achieved (without the skill building) will provide us with skill. Instead, that "silence" or"state" is a consequence of developing the skill (you practice the skill so much you no longer need give it conscious focus). This is nothing revolutionary, we all do this in our lives -- how many of us have "blanked out" while driving and only realized it when we have reached our destination? We're able to do that because we have driven so much, practiced that skill so often, that it has been internalized (unconsciously competent): we can do it without thinking (beyond thought). Though we may do that when driving or when performing some other skill, that "state" doesn't "transfer" outside the performance of that skill since it is a consequence of that skill's development.

[Hardwork108]

When a massive guy does it you will use all your force to equal theirs. Hopefully you dont have to use all of it so you can be relaxed.
In Wing Chun (as well as other styles with internal "qualities") you are not meant to be tense even if you use maximum force. Furthermore, tension will get you killed if your opponent is "soft".;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun is an art developed for street fighting...In the end. Which form of WC holds up in a real fight...Silence or Noise doesn't matter if your WC can't can not decimate your enemy. Regarless if you practice for 10,000 or 1,000 Hours will your WC defeat the average street fighter. Will your WC keep you safe from harm.

Yes Hendriks WC is different from Terrence's Wing Chun. But I would have to see them fight with the WC to note which one is actually useful or useless!

As for driving while not thinking or day dreaming. At best you are driving at minimual skill level. To drive at a optimun level you will need to be fully alert.

In other words i can drive to store and back with out really thinking about it. But if I am going to drive caustiously in heavy rain or if I am driving an trying to dodge dangerous obstacles one will need to be alert in order to do so effiecently.

So practicing WC forms and drills will give you the ability to do stuff with out thinking about it. But fighting an opponent who you can't read right off will take alertness.



Hendrik, I know that is what you believe but all we need to do is look at how athletic development really works -- by looking at top-level athletes in any field. Skill in anything comes from lots of deliberate practice (the 10,000 hour rule), from doing that skill over and over again. There is not some "silence" or "state" that once achieved (without the skill building) will provide us with skill. Instead, that "silence" or"state" is a consequence of developing the skill (you practice the skill so much you no longer need give it conscious focus). This is nothing revolutionary, we all do this in our lives -- how many of us have "blanked out" while driving and only realized it when we have reached our destination? We're able to do that because we have driven so much, practiced that skill so often, that it has been internalized (unconsciously competent): we can do it without thinking (beyond thought). Though we may do that when driving or when performing some other skill, that "state" doesn't "transfer" outside the performance of that skill since it is a consequence of that skill's development.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is this "cell phone" that you speak off?

*releases carrier pigeon with grocery list for wife*

[Hendrik]

Silence is simple to know. but take a life time to develop stability and mastering and refining.

Drop the thoughts and when there is no thoughts but only Know with "lite weight, and peacefull and awareness/conciousness is expanding" . There is the silence. No struggle no resistance but acceptance. not using the mind trying to change anything thus there is effortless.


When one enter the silence state that is where the "Comes accept ... using silence to lead action " starts.

for in that state, one no longer needs to use the mind to create a "comes accept.. using silence to lead action" it is by default.

let go and it is default to that; it is not a believe or a thinking or thought or control, it is let go and let god be or default or flow. That is where the pre-birth state is.

One actually prohibit one to go into this state because one have a post birth habit /mind programming acting like GOD saying "I would not trust anything if my mind doesnt approve of it."

well, until one is courage enough to Let go this "mind needs to approve everything with reasons" program, one cant get there and one stuck at this man made world, there is where trap within the mind's box or suffering start and getting complicated day by day with more and more man made rules one needs to satisfy just because others say so.





Thus, the Kuen kuit is not about understanding it and create it with mind,
but enter into the silence state and then refine the art there.

Using the mind and logic to speculate about silence will never get there. unless one drop one's thoughts. the "cell phone" is by default, resisting its existance via using the mind to disprove it is man made.


if you have a feel or what is silence, simply relax and listen to two good songs you love. then when the first song ended and while you are waiting for the second song to come up that is silence. Notice I said " that is silence." take that "whole " state, instead of start thinking or speculating or discriminating. You dont have to do anything that state is silence, just accept it.

In that state all your sensors are on, your mind is alert but not spinning, and you are accepting with ease.


Well, that is just a glimse. even if one have that glimse. that is still cant do much for you. Thus, the six patriach of Zen after seeing this silence, can enter into this silence, still went off to the mountain and spend six teen years refining how to be stable and apply it in daily life.

Thus, silence is not an issue. one needs to know what is silence. and then trust that silence. and then spend a life time being silence.

and lots of people even after seeing the silence will not go through the development, this is either they are not sure because there is no Sifu to coach them and fine tune them and verify their direction. or they are so use to mind thinking way and decide not to let go the mind thinking way......


In WCK, one train Chi Sau blind fold, that blind fold means droping one's mind......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Silence is simple to know. but take a life time to develop stability and mastering and refining.

Drop the thoughts and when there is no thoughts but only Know with "lite weight, and peacefull and awareness/conciousness is expanding" . There is the silence. No struggle no resistance but acceptance. not using the mind trying to change anything thus there is effortless.


When one enter the silence state that is where the "Comes accept ... using silence to lead action " starts.

for in that state, one no longer needs to use the mind to create a "comes accept.. using silence to lead action" it is by default.

let go and it is default to that; it is not a believe or a thinking or thought or control, it is let go and let god be or default or flow. That is where the pre-birth state is.

One actually prohibit one to go into this state because one have a post birth habit /mind programming acting like GOD saying "I would not trust anything if my mind doesnt approve of it."

well, until one is courage enough to Let go this "mind needs to approve everything with reasons" program, one cant get there and one stuck at this man made world, there is where trap within the mind's box or suffering start and getting complicated day by day with more and more man made rules one needs to satisfy just because others say so.





Thus, the Kuen kuit is not about understanding it and create it with mind,
but enter into the silence state and then refine the art there.

Using the mind and logic to speculate about silence will never get there. unless one drop one's thoughts. the "cell phone" is by default, resisting its existance via using the mind to disprove it is man made.

Get your hands on the book, "in the minds eye".
You'll like it.

[Hendrik]

Get your hands on the book, "in the minds eye".
You'll like it.


Why go that far?

In WCK, doing chi sau with blind fold is entering into Silence, for at blind fold you are force not stop your thinking and just accept......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why go that far?

In WCK, doing chi sau with blind fold is entering into Silence, for at blind fold you are force not stop your thinking and just accept......

You got issues with reading?

[Hendrik]

You got issues with reading?

Taste the orange direct; why read about how orange's taste?

That is the practice of Keep it simple and sweet isnt it?

[Vajramusti]

Taste the orange direct; why read about how orange's taste?

That is the practice of Keep it simple and sweet isnt it?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blinfold chi sau is a nice demo gimmick IMO. One can still let the mind runaway with you even when you are blindfolded.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taste the orange direct; why read about how orange's taste?

That is the practice of Keep it simple and sweet isnt it?

Why do you answer a question with a question?

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=1580

[Hendrik]

Why do you answer a question with a question?

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=1580



am I?

I am presenting " experience the silence" first hand in no time, rather then read a book about it.

[Hendrik]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blinfold chi sau is a nice demo gimmick IMO. One can still let the mind runaway with you even when you are blindfolded.

joy chaudhuri


Sure, even reciting mantra can be a gimmick.

it is just boat to cross the river, finger pointing at the moon. why wasting time discussing boat and finger missing the moon?

if you dont like to use blinfold chi sau to know the silence, use anything you like. that is fine with me and perfectly acceptable.

[Hendrik]

anyone doing the listen to the two songs experiments above? do it and discuss.

If not the same silence state also surface, while you are waiting for the next sentence other is going to say within a conversation; where you awareness is naturelly alert with ease and your mind is ready for processing if needed.

See, Silence surface every where all day long. we just ignore it and take that speculative mind as the master. that is not the master but a computer.


All internal art from China needs to enter into this silence state to start the training. without it that run away mind is not going to get one's body and Qi balance. and in fact, that strong run away mind or strong intentional mind is the hinderance of Growing /evoking Zhen Qi properly.


Thus, most are not fruit full in the Internal training because they never enter into silence in the first place.


To those who is in HK and SEA with my age, I suggest these two songs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE5oUSKMER8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvG2lL0mJyA


yes, dealing with Feelings, thoughts, and know. Thus in the meditation there is something call the vanishing the feelings and thoughts samadhi.

Well that is still not the ultimate ; the ultimate is not attached to feelings and thoughts while within feelings and thoughts with a clear Knowing; that is the teaching of the diamond sutra or the shurangama sutra the Zen or Zen.


Everyone can do it, dont need to wait for 100000000 years.

[k gledhill]

chi-sao can make some people delusional......:D

[Hardwork108]

chi-sao can make some people delusional......:D
It may only make 95%-97% (the McWing Chun) practitioners delusional.

[Kansuke]

Oh brother, is this 'hardlywork108' ******* still at it?

[Steeeve]

chi sau is the third eyes:)

[Hardwork108]

Oh brother, is this 'hardlywork108' ******* still at it?
Is this Dave Ross? How many forum names do you post under????!!!!!

[Steeeve]

Whos Dave Ross:confused:

[anerlich]

Whos Dave Ross:confused:

lkfmdc.

HW108 has a secret crush on him.

[anerlich]

Anerlich: your imperative vs. declarative self-talk idea is a useful one for people who self-talk during combat. I propose, though, that not everyone self-talks, nor is it needed to be successful in athletic endeavors.

Fair point.

If you don't self talk, how then do you manifest intent? Just semantics, or something else?

[anerlich]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blinfold chi sau is a nice demo gimmick IMO. One can still let the mind runaway with you even when you are blindfolded.

joy chaudhuri

Joy is correct.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Fair point.

If you don't self talk, how then do you manifest intent? Just semantics, or something else?

I'm a big fan of zombies.

Imagine you're at a party with a drink in hand. You step out onto the patio and slip on a patch of ice, but catch your balance and stay standing, drink unspilled.

There's no need to self-talk through that situation; in fact, things happen so fast that we only realize what's happened after it's over, yet if we're in good health we realize it while remaining standing, courtesy of our subscious mind - our Zombie mind.

Have you ever tried capitalizing on that? One way would be to train specific situations until they become subscious. I think most MAs do that in some way or another. Where you place the emphasis within the situation will determine what your zombie learns, though. Training specific moves into subconsciousness is different than training specific mindsets into subconsciousness.

A Chen master has this great simile relating to what he trains the zombie for (I'm paraphrasing):
Mastery of Martial Arts is like play-fighting with a child. No matter what the child does, you don't feel threatened, and you can deal with whatever they throw at you subconsciously. You don't have to think about doing this move or that move. There's no concentration, no self talk needed.

Back to the self-talk: if it's being used, then may I suggest moving along the imperative line from "technique" to "target" and eventually to "result."

Get it to hit by itself! Train that Zombie! :D

[Kansuke]

lkfmdc.

HW108 has a secret crush on him.



A glorified crush.

[Ali. R]

This is really hard to do for most, but it’s a less stressful activity then being shallow and full of tension; this is not really pointed to anyone just something to think about…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lyZd0JZCK0


Ali Rahim.

[Hardwork108]

Whos Dave Ross:confused:
A glorified nobody!

[Hardwork108]

Hendrik, I know that is what you believe but all we need to do is look at how athletic development really works -- by looking at top-level athletes in any field. Skill in anything comes from lots of deliberate practice (the 10,000 hour rule), from doing that skill over and over again. There is not some "silence" or "state" that once achieved (without the skill building) will provide us with skill. Instead, that "silence" or"state" is a consequence of developing the skill (you practice the skill so much you no longer need give it conscious focus). This is nothing revolutionary, we all do this in our lives -- how many of us have "blanked out" while driving and only realized it when we have reached our destination? We're able to do that because we have driven so much, practiced that skill so often, that it has been internalized (unconsciously competent): we can do it without thinking (beyond thought). Though we may do that when driving or when performing some other skill, that "state" doesn't "transfer" outside the performance of that skill since it is a of that skill's development.

I don't believe for one minute that Hendrik is saying that there is no need for skill building. Obtaining the "silence" and skill building go hand in hand.

I believe that the "silence" in question goes far deeper and does indeed transfer to one's general life. You just become more aware generally; your mind is always calm and you may notice things that others miss; you do not let your emotions run away with you, and so on.

Using your driving example, imagine that the driver is in automatic mode and is driving his car. He does not think he just acts accordingly. Suddenly another car cuts in his way and he brakes automatically and avoids a serious accident. According to your understanding of this subject area, once the driver avoids the accident and stops his car, he will be "off" his automatic mode. He will feel anger, fear, or even shock. He may swear at the other driver or he may get out of his car and hit the other party.

In my definition of silence, he will not have any of the above emotions, nor reactions. He will just "be". That is a difficult one to understand for people who are not familiar with the various "qualities" that internal training aims to achieve, and it is definitely deeper than, "lets repeat an action until it becomes second nature" which is a concept that even some children may be aware of.

HW108

[Hendrik]

Silence is not a belive, Silence is the state when one face the reality independent of belive, mental bias, fix/rigid set up, mind box of " it got to be this way", and "I cant".


Acceptance is silence in action. Silence is acceptance is stillness.

Thus, the Wing Chun Kuen Kuit needs both " comes accept..." and "using silence to lead action" to make it complete.



Application is the dynamic of the energy, application without energy based is just fantasy.

"body" is the stillness of energy, stillness without application is useless.





Silence = I can = a state. and to get to I can just drop I can't, to get to silence just drop the thoughts and all those theories and believe. That is reality.

No one can convince one to get to I can and flow without the approval of others theory if one decide to not drop the I cant and stuck and always needs others approval.

[t_niehoff]

I don't believe for one minute that Hendrik is saying that there is no need for skill building. Obtaining the "silence" and skill building go hand in hand.

I believe that the "silence" in question goes far deeper and does indeed transfer to one's general life. You just become more aware generally; your mind is always calm and you may notice things that others miss; you do not let your emotions run away with you, and so on.

Using your driving example, imagine that the driver is in automatic mode and is driving his car. He does not think he just acts accordingly. Suddenly another car cuts in his way and he brakes automatically and avoids a serious accident. According to your understanding of this subject area, once the driver avoids the accident and stops his car, he will be "off" his automatic mode. He will feel anger, fear, or even shock. He may swear at the other driver or he may get out of his car and hit the other party.


Go back to the driving example, here is a skill (driving) that many people have to the point of unconscious competence, where we have "silence" to the extent of being able to "blank out", right? Yet, does this state "transfer" to other parts of our life as you believe? Can we now, with this "silence" we're able to achieve through driving, consequently make us "more aware," or "more calm" in other parts of our life? Does that mean we can "transfer" that "state" to fighting, to surfing, to etc.? Of course not. And that's because that "state" isn't something apart from the skill itself. It is only that the skill being performed has become so internalized as to be second nature, so that we no longer need to give the performance of the skill conscious thought. It's not some independent state.

[Hardwork108]

Go back to the driving example, here is a skill (driving) that many people have to the point of unconscious competence, where we have "silence" to the extent of being able to "blank out", right? Yet, does this state "transfer" to other parts of our life as you believe? Can we now, with this "silence" we're able to achieve through driving, consequently make us "more aware," or "more calm" in other parts of our life? Does that mean we can "transfer" that "state" to fighting, to surfing, to etc.? Of course not. And that's because that "state" isn't something apart from the skill itself. It is only that the skill being performed has become so internalized as to be second nature, so that we no longer need to give the performance of the skill conscious thought. It's not some independent state.

I did not say it was easy. However, as I understand it, transferring this calmness to general life is one of the "later" goals. Hence, the meditative practices common in many TCMAs, specially those that emphasize the Internal approach.

It is obvious that the old masters of kung fu knew about the relevance of learning and memorizing motor skills through repetition yet they went further. and deeper!

Why? Why is this methodology (in varying ways) followed in different TCMAs and for what seems to be a long time? Enquiring minds will investigate, closed minds will call it fantasy.

Like Hendrik implies, you need to do it to understand it. That is, "taste the orange" rather than read about it (or talk about its taste).


HW108

[Hendrik]

I did not say it was easy. However, as I understand it, transferring this calmness to general life is one of the "later" goals. Hence, the meditative practices common in many TCMAs, specially those that emphasize the Internal approach.---


This silence is the base of human living. Everyone's activity is based on it. It is just some knows some dont.

To be able to switch position to make Silence the Boss and mind the servant is the ultimate. Where all human is reacting with the mind is the boss and Silence the servant.

meditative is just a tool before the switch, silence is everywhere in dynamic or stillness condition.





It is obvious that the old masters of kung fu knew about the relevance of learning and memorizing motor skills through repetition yet they went further. and deeper! ---------


Nothing to do with old masters of Kung fu, it is a part of human that being forgoten similar to after 10000 years of using bluetooth earphone totally forget it is not the bluetooth the master the ear is the master.



Why? Why is this methodology (in varying ways) followed in different TCMAs and for what seems to be a long time? Enquiring minds will investigate, closed minds will call it fantasy. ------

closed mind means insist on mind is the master. reason rule over everything. and never like to face, when that close mind is doze off, everything -- reasoning....etc is gone. if one doesnt wake up the world is over.

As for silence, doesnt matter awake or doze off, it is always there. timeless. and independent on one's education or habit.




Like Hendrik implies, you need to do it to understand it. That is, "taste the orange" rather than read about it (or talk about its taste). ------

One cant undertand Silence. because MIND is a subset of Silence. One can only KNOW because KNow itself is Silence. But KNOW is not that discrimination function which differentiate a man or a woman when seeing one. that is discriminating mind function. Drop the mind, silence surface that simple. The difficulties is how to drop the mind.

Similar to after 1000000 years implant with BlueTooth earphone forget totally on what is one's Own ear.



In action, silence is acceptance without resistance. and only with acceptance one can be effortless. a typical example is if your wife asks you to clean the restroom. as soon as one accept it naturally, one still needs to clean the restroom, doing all the work. however, that is very different then resist it, trying to reason with one's mind, then doing it without the soul but forcefully repeat a cleaning routine. just repeating a job without life.



Thus, when facing an opponents, ok with whatever the opponents' is coming at one and response it naturally with life instead of repeating a training routine. and in fact due to one cant step on the same water twice, every act is always different.

is very different that filling one's mind will all kind of prediction, confident, not confident, over confident...... not approval for one's opps resisting opponents nice attack......etc. with losing focus due to the mind is all over the place with that repeating routine.

Sure those who practice the routine can handle the situation better then those who doesnt.

However, silence here doesnt say one doesnt need to know the routine. in fact it is about putting LIFE in that routine after knowing the routine.

and in some case, you know you dont even need the full routine or you need a different routine or just totally ignore it, instead of similar to an animal which only good at one thing and force that one thing all the time similar to using a hammer to cut a wire because your mind resist to know.

If there is such things as MMA, then Silence is that master to know when to use what optimally.

[t_niehoff]

I did not say it was easy. However, as I understand it, transferring this calmness to general life is one of the "later" goals. Hence, the meditative practices common in many TCMAs, specially those that emphasize the Internal approach.


It has nothing to do with "easy" or "difficult" -- rather it has to do with that "silence" is simply a stage in the skill development process. It is specific to that skill. It doesn't "transfer" because it can't.



It is obvious that the old masters of kung fu knew about the relevance of learning and memorizing motor skills through repetition yet they went further. and deeper!

Why? Why is this methodology (in varying ways) followed in different TCMAs and for what seems to be a long time? Enquiring minds will investigate, closed minds will call it fantasy.


I don't think it is obvious that "the old masters of kung fu" knew a great deal about how human beings really learn and develop psycho-motor skills. The TMA training model is, in fact, a very poor way to learn and develop psycho-motor (fighting) skills (as evidenced by the fact that it produces very, very few people with high level skills).

You also assume that there is something "further" and "deeper". Well, if that is true, why not look to people who have achieved the highest levels of DEMONSTRABLE fighting skills or people who have achieved the highest levels of athletic excellence to see? Isn't it those people, if anyone, who would have "gone further"?



Like Hendrik implies, you need to do it to understand it. That is, "taste the orange" rather than read about it (or talk about its taste).
HW108

That's unsound reasoning. We don't need to "understand" something to see it working or see its existence. Nor do you know (another assumption) that Hendrik can "do" it.

The plain and simple fact is that skill is by its very nature demonstrable. If some attribute comes from a skill and is "transferred" into other aspects, we should expect to see EVIDENCE of that (wouldn't all great athletes, since they all have unconscious competence, and hence "silence") be more calm, focused, etc. in other aspects of their lives?

[anerlich]

and in some case, you know you dont even need the full routine or you need a different routine or just totally ignore it, instead of similar to an animal which only good at one thing and force that one thing all the time similar to using a hammer to cut a wire because your mind resist to know.


Those cases would only be the ones which are predictable and non-threatening. People that actually work in potentially deadly situations suggest you have an immediate action that works on a majority of situations. Otherwise you may not be alive long enough to seek after enlightenment or silence. More chance of living with an IA, more chance of dying with Silence. You can take option B, it's a free world.

The Old Masters' techniques, according to the "experts" here, have been steadily forgotten since the 1850's and their skills are rare and becoming rarer.

When it came to teaching and education, the "Old Masters" and their "top students" were mainfest failures who couldn't and shouldn't get a gig at a dog training school, if you guys are to be believed. :p

[anerlich]

The plain and simple fact is that skill is by its very nature demonstrable. If some attribute comes from a skill and is "transferred" into other aspects, we should expect to see EVIDENCE of that (wouldn't all great athletes, since they all have unconscious competence, and hence "silence") be more calm, focused, etc. in other aspects of their lives?


Like Tiger Woods, you mean?

[anerlich]

Imagine you're at a party with a drink in hand. You step out onto the patio and slip on a patch of ice, but catch your balance and stay standing, drink unspilled.

There's no need to self-talk through that situation; in fact, things happen so fast that we only realize what's happened after it's over, yet if we're in good health we realize it while remaining standing, courtesy of our subscious mind - our Zombie mind.

Have you ever tried capitalizing on that? One way would be to train specific situations until they become subscious. I think most MAs do that in some way or another. Where you place the emphasis within the situation will determine what your zombie learns, though. Training specific moves into subconsciousness is different than training specific mindsets into subconsciousness.

A Chen master has this great simile relating to what he trains the zombie for (I'm paraphrasing):
Mastery of Martial Arts is like play-fighting with a child. No matter what the child does, you don't feel threatened, and you can deal with whatever they throw at you subconsciously. You don't have to think about doing this move or that move. There's no concentration, no self talk needed.

Back to the self-talk: if it's being used, then may I suggest moving along the imperative line from "technique" to "target" and eventually to "result."

Get it to hit by itself! Train that Zombie!


We don't get much patio ice in Australia, but I know what you mean.

I agree with drilling specific situations as you describe. I would qualify that by suggesting maximum benefit will come from drilling the most likely situations to confront one, and the reaction to those situations which are most likely to succeed. Like you say, you want your Zombie to learn stuff that's actually has a chance of being applicable.

I get the feeling the Chen master suggests when sparring or rolling with new guys; I'm not sure he, you, I, Hendrik, HW108 or anyone else could seriously be able to carry it through into a sudden criminal confrontation involving extreme violence. I definitely would not regard that as a good idea.


Back to the self-talk: if it's being used, then may I suggest moving along the imperative line from "technique" to "target" and eventually to "result."

I like it :)

[Ali. R]

Hardwork good job

From a martial standpoint you’re right on the money, just stay on that path and you’ll do just fine and all will be shown to you…

I’m impress with your understanding and approach as well as Hendrick’s; I hope he doesn’t mind me saying it, a while back it was a bad ideal for doing so.

I’ve seen a poster complement him on this thread so I will do the same…

Good job, and I hope this doesn’t bit me in the butt later…


Ali Rahim.

[Hendrik]

In this world, I have found human beings like to solve technical issue via politics.

That is a usual practice of winning with all cost. But still after that winning one knows one still doesnt solve that technical issue.

and solving technical issue is not a favorite things because it could damage the politics benifits of some.


History repeat and life goes on.

[t_niehoff]

In this world, I have found human beings like to solve technical issue via politics.


Hendrik, no one is bringing up "politics" here -- although you seem to be trying to interject that idea as a way to deflect your inability to marshall either evidence or reason to support your views.



That is a usual practice of winning with all cost. But still after that winning one knows one still doesnt solve that technical issue.

and solving technical issue is not a favorite things because it could damage the politics benifits of some.


You keep insisting that YOU know the "correct" way to practice SLT, to achieve state's like "silence" that will give the practitioner the ability to deal with whatever comes, etc. Well, if that is so, THEN SHOW US. I, like many others, will believe genuine evidence. If your way of practicing SLT gives you some unique skill, SHOW US. We know what training like a fighter can do -- we can look to any good fighters and see it for ourselves. But where is the evidence for the benefits of your unique SLT practice? Do these things really exist? If so, then SHOW US. Go spar with some known, competent fighters and let us see how your SLT practice has equipped you. This isn't politics, but simply a request to see evidence of results. And if you don't want to do it, then point us to someone that uses your unique SLT practice and can hold their own with competent fighters. Let us SEE for ourselves. If these things really exist, then that should be a very easy thing to do.

If you want to turn the tables on me, and ask me to provide proof that athletic training (using modern, athletic principles), focusing on skill development through realistic training works, I would tell you to look at muay thai, boxers, MMAists, BJJ fighters, wrestlers, judoka, etc. ANYONE can SEE FOR THEMSELVES that this sort of training works, and works across a variety of disciplines and for the great majority of people who do that type of training.



History repeat and life goes on.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, it's not what you don't know that can come back to bite you; it's what you know for sure that ain't true that can come back to bite you.

[Ali. R]

I just don’t have the will to prove anything publicly anymore because this world is much bigger than myself. I only care about persevering my life’s perseverance… I don’t care if I know or if I don’t, I only care about the truth without false labels of justification, because I’m not a politician and have nothing to lose or gain…

To back up that fact, I turn away students by the dozens because I want my classes to stay small as possible…

It’s not what I can get; it’s whom I can help, and why do some make things so hard for each other’s understanding?

Why do some put themselves higher and above others? We all can have the same qualities but each of us manifest them differently…

The only losers in this are the innocents who are just looking for knowledge and can care less about politics, I guess that is too much for innocent ask…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I guess that is to much for the innocent to ask for...


Ali Rahim.

[Hendrik]

The only losers in this are the innocents who are just looking for knowledge and can care less about politics, I guess that is too much for innocent ask…




If you look at the history of China, about the great teacher Confucious, to how the Ming Emperor intentionally black out the Chinese Buddhism escoteric school transmission to the public due to his fear of lost control, and lots of cover up....etc in the name of control.

That is just human nature. Truth in human history often over write by those who have power.

[t_niehoff]

I guess that is to much for the innocent to ask for...


One of the things I've noticed over the years is that people holding woo (http://www.skepdic.com/woowoo.html) beliefs resort to the same rhetorical tactics/devices over and over again to support their position -- not surprising since they can't rely on the weight of credible evidence or solid reasoning. What underlies all those tactics is a refusal to provide solid supporting evidence.

I don't supply evidence since the world is bigger than myself. -- Nonsensical.

I only care about truth. -- OK, so provide evidence that what you say is truth.

I have nothing to gain or lose. -- Neither do lots of people holding woo ideas. Ignorance isn't necessarily about gain or loss.

Why do others put themselves higher than others? -- Not an issue. The issue is whether something is true or not. The only way we can know is via evidence. Anyone can claim anything; only those with evidence can provide it.

The only losers and innocents looking for truth. -- And how can anyone know what is the truth without evidence? If you are so concerned with the "innocents looking for truth", then help them out and provide evidence proving your claims. Otherwise, you are no better than any charlatan or quack.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, no one is bringing up "politics" here -- although you seem to be trying to interject that idea as a way to deflect your inability to marshall either evidence or reason to support your views.




My intention is to bring up what is a fact in the history. Since this is United State of America the second millenium.

As for your speculation, I totally accept your way of thinking and let go because it have nothing to do with what I am posting or silence.

[t_niehoff]

My intention is to bring up what is a fact in the history. Since this is United State of America the second millenium.

As for your speculation, I totally accept your way of thinking and let go because it have nothing to do with what I am posting or silence.

We're still awating the EVIDENCE that your way of doing SLT will produce any significant martial (fighting) benefits. CAn you provide the evidence or not?

[Ali. R]

The proof is there for those who want it and its not just for me to give, unless they chose to come to me for the advice, because this world dose not revolve around me, and it shouldn’t be on my shoulders to help others prove there point, I’ll leave that up to them…

Whenever one can do or say something nice about someone or something and is treated much differently for his kindness, sends a very odd and strange message and it’s not nice or polite… It’s only so many conclusions one can come up with…

Hendrick I don’t hate you in any kind of way and never did, maybe it should have been better that I hadn’t responded to his post and I’m sure he meant no harm as well, know anything pertaining to that post I will not elaborate on, because it’s self-explanatory.

T, I always enjoy your post,


Ali Rahim

[Hendrik]

Hendrick I don’t hate you in any kind of way and never did, maybe it should have been better that I hadn’t responded to his post and I’m sure he meant no harm as well, know anything pertaining to that post I will not elaborate on, because it’s self-explanatory.





Ali, I am just sharing.

As for how others response I accept their view and let go not more then that.

[Hendrik]

We're still awating the EVIDENCE that your way of doing SLT will produce any significant martial (fighting) benefits. CAn you provide the evidence or not?

your posts tell me you are a person who want control and approval. I can sure accept that with ease in the silence of peace.

[anerlich]

That is a usual practice of winning with all cost. But still after that winning one knows one still doesnt solve that technical issue.

Kind of hard to solve the technical issues if you're dead or seriously injured because you didn't survive a violent crime because you were more concerned about Silence than survival.

[anerlich]

your posts tell me you are a person who want control and approval.

As do yours, Hendrik.

[Ali. R]

My intention is to bring up what is a fact in the history. Since this is United State of America the second millenium.

As for your speculation, I totally accept your way of thinking and let go because it have nothing to do with what I am posting or silence.

I can understand where you are coming from but I’m a man who don’t desirer power, so therefore I have nothing to hide and need nothing to gain, not indulging in labels of justification…

I prefer to serve then lead so I wouldn’t consistently have to change history (lie)…


Ali Rahim.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I agree with drilling specific situations as you describe. I would qualify that by suggesting maximum benefit will come from drilling the most likely situations to confront one, and the reaction to those situations which are most likely to succeed. Like you say, you want your Zombie to learn stuff that's actually has a chance of being applicable.

I get the feeling the Chen master suggests when sparring or rolling with new guys; I'm not sure he, you, I, Hendrik, HW108 or anyone else could seriously be able to carry it through into a sudden criminal confrontation involving extreme violence. I definitely would not regard that as a good idea.

I'll see if I can find the quote and context - it's in a KFM from a few years back.

When I first started Wing Chun, even later in some of the IMAs I was learning, the progression of skill development started with a bit of breathing and a bit of focus, followed by solo technique work. We then did target work and partner drills, starting with no resistance and moving up towards full resistance. I've also experienced the flip side of this process: starting with full partner drill resistance and working my way towards the solo drills.

I find the latter method to be better at practically training the zombie and developing effective, results-based self talk. A noob off the street could get good real quick like this. They can fight, just don't ask them to do it with any particular style. The former method tends to program secondary imperatives before primary ones, making the practitioners look more capable than they are for a long time (and in some cases, forever - if the student never advances to the full resistance level, they're left with nothing but a stylish zombie.)

In my training, my goal is to zombify general concepts first, then techniques. I've talked about man sao/wu sao before along these same lines. If someone views man sao and wu sao as techniques to be performed, then they're looking at the finger, or the secondary imperatives. If you can ingrain them as ideas - man sao being the probing idea of "what's happening?" and Wu Sao being the shielding idea of "don't get damaged," then the techniques that the ideas were originally married to become mere rafts across the water for the ideas themselves.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Come accept goes return means totally effortless or no resistance."


***TOTAL NONSENSE.

"Accept what comes" does not mean TOTAL NON-RESISTANCE. It means that you use your natural forward force (without extra strain) to intercept his force and immediately determine - through the contact reflexes developed through chi sao and related drills - WHAT YOU SHOULD DO against the force coming in from your opponent: oppose it directly, redirect it, use footwork in conjunction with your arms/hands in order to dissipate or redirect his force, not use footwork to do the same (because footwork is unnecessary), etc.

[Steeeve]

lkfmdc.

HW108 has a secret crush on him.

Ok the Lama King of NY....he done good article by the way...a senior of GM Chan tai san
Does he train WC too:confused:

[anerlich]

Ok the Lama King of NY....he done good article by the way...a senior of GM Chan tai san
Does he train WC too

I don't think so, no.

[t_niehoff]

your posts tell me you are a person who want control and approval. I can sure accept that with ease in the silence of peace.

And your posts tell me that you are a person who cannot offer any evidence in support of your views.

Hendrik, I don't want control or approval, but what I do want is for people to be intellectually honest and to be able to provide both solid evidence and sound reasoning in support of their views. After all, how can we separate the nonsense from the truth except by looking to the proof provided by solid evidence and sound reasoning? Do you expect people to simply take your word for it?

[Hendrik]

And your posts tell me that you are a person who cannot offer any evidence in support of your views.

Hendrik, I don't want control or approval, but what I do want is for people to be intellectually honest and to be able to provide both solid evidence and sound reasoning in support of their views. After all, how can we separate the nonsense from the truth except by looking to the proof provided by solid evidence and sound reasoning? Do you expect people to simply take your word for it?



I am sharing.

It is up to others to take it or leave it.

BTW. Silence got nothing to do with my view. similar to Sun got nothing to do with my view.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

This 56 minute lecture about the psychology of intuition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddFfRaBPqg) by psychologist Daniel Kahneman, winner of the 2002 Nobel Prize in Economics, touches on precisely the subject being discussed here. If you have an hour to watch it and are interested in the topics in this thread, then watch this lecture. I particularly like this quote of his: "[Intuitive thinking] feels like something that happens to us; it doesn't feel like something we do."

That's the best description I've heard of what it feels like to fight.

Just like slipping and catching our balance feels like something that happens rather than something we do, combat can (and in my opinion, should) feel like something that happens rather than something we're doing.

It's in this sense that I was saying "it's possible to fight successfully without self-talk."

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I found the article with the "Chen Master's quote". Turns out it was an article on Chen Xiao Wang, but it wasn't the master's quote at all. It was the author's - a certain C.P. Ong.




Chen Xiao Wang's Principle of Movements

Dantien is at the heart of the body's motion

Once a part moves, the whole body moves

Joint by joint, the energy threads through

Thus, the force transmits unimpeded in one action.

... The phrases in Chen Xiao Wang's Principle of Movements convey a state of the body to be maintained during a practitioner's motion. If this state is compromised, it exposes a weakness in the body that can be exploited.... The power of this gong is referred to as Gong Li. If the level of the gong achieved is high enough, it is said that you have Gong Fu (the skills you have trained so hard for.)

...To see this point, think of yourself handling a young child. You do not consider yourself challenged in any way by the child, so your guard is always intact. You can dispose of whatever the little kid throws at you. In this sense, your Gongli, limited as it is, is superior to that of the child's. Chen Xiao Wang's Gongli far exceeds that of his students.

Something I forgot to mention about zombies (should be evident though): Zombies are slow learners. They need lots and lots and lots of practice.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Whether you're practicing a sport form of Wing Chun or a spiritual one, I'd say that this idea of training one's "intuitive thinking" is a key, or core, concept. Of course, how you train this will depend on what you're doing.

How do you train your intuitive thinking? Forms, Drills, Sparring, Meditation, something else?

[t_niehoff]

I am sharing.

It is up to others to take it or leave it.


Yes, you are "sharing", and I am pointing out that what you are sharing is supported by neither evience or reason, and is contrary to what we do know from evidence and reason.



BTW. Silence got nothing to do with my view. similar to Sun got nothing to do with my view.

This is where you are being intellectually dishonest -- "silence" (or, more accurately, your view of "silence") is the substance of what you are"sharing." So it has everything to do with your view. You are now trying to put your view forward as fact (like the Sun is a fact) when it is not a factbut rather your opinion which isnot supported by either evidence or reason.

[t_niehoff]

Whether you're practicing a sport form of Wing Chun or a spiritual one, I'd say that this idea of training one's "intuitive thinking" is a key, or core, concept. Of course, how you train this will depend on what you're doing.

How do you train your intuitive thinking? Forms, Drills, Sparring, Meditation, something else?

Skill is learned and developed via a natural mechanism or process. We can look at all good athletes and see how they developed their skill to see that process at work. Scientists have recognized and studied that process. There is a lot of research that has been done and published on it. Hendrik and others take a view that is contrary to that process. Skill doesn't come from developing your "intuitive thinking." Skill comes from practice, and the right kind of practice.

As fighting is an open skill (open skills require continual adaptation since the environment changes), forms are a really poor way of learning or developing open skills (since you can't learn to adapt by doing fixed things). To develop open skills you need to repeatedly practice the task under the target conditions (intensity, etc.). Look at what all good athletes do (and it's not forms or meditation) to develop.

[Wayfaring]

As fighting is an open skill (open skills require continual adaptation since the environment changes), forms are a really poor way of learning or developing open skills (since you can't learn to adapt by doing fixed things). To develop open skills you need to repeatedly practice the task under the target conditions (intensity, etc.). Look at what all good athletes do (and it's not forms or meditation) to develop.

Good to see you back on here, T.

[anerlich]

Good to see you back on here, T.

Never thought I'd say it, but yeah, I agree.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Skill is learned and developed via a natural mechanism or process. We can look at all good athletes and see how they developed their skill to see that process at work. Scientists have recognized and studied that process. There is a lot of research that has been done and published on it.

Agreed. Modern Sports Science has pushed and increased the limits of human performance.



As fighting is an open skill (open skills require continual adaptation since the environment changes), forms are a really poor way of learning or developing open skills (since you can't learn to adapt by doing fixed things). To develop open skills you need to repeatedly practice the task under the target conditions (intensity, etc.). Look at what all good athletes do (and it's not forms or meditation) to develop.

Agreed again.


Hendrik and others take a view that is contrary to that process. Skill doesn't come from developing your "intuitive thinking." Skill comes from practice, and the right kind of practice.

Didn't watch the video, did you? :)

I'm saying that intuitive thinking, natural assessment, and skill (described as being intimately connected in the video above, by the way) can be developed through practice and practical application. Dr. Kahneman makes the point in the video that athletes, chess players, firefighters, nurses and others who practice and operate within a specific arena have a higher level of subconscious processing within that arena and situations like it.

The nurse who correctly diagnoses a party guest and saves their life; the basketball player who pulls back the old lady about to step off the curb into traffic; the firefighter who tells everyone to get out of the building because something's not right. While these may not be their specific arenas, and they're "off the clock" so to speak, they are still able to use their abilities, outside even of their own consciousness.

So here's a question. Suppose you came to realize that your constant practice in a particular domain was coming in handy in another part of your life. What would you do with this information?

Scenario 1: Keep practicing under current target conditions.

Scenario 2: Find target conditions that mesh in multiple chosen arenas. Practice those.

Scenario 3: Find target conditions that mesh in ALL known arenas. Practice those.

Scenario 4: Something I haven't thought of.

FWIW, I'm gonna say that if someone wants to learn any specific skills, go with Scenario 1. If someone's in need of something spiritual, go with scenario 3.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik and others take a view that is contrary to that process. Skill doesn't come from developing your "intuitive thinking."



This is a comment which is based on cluelessness on reality.

Who talks "intuitive thinking"? I certainly dont.

[t_niehoff]

I'm saying that intuitive thinking, natural assessment, and skill (described as being intimately connected in the video above, by the way) can be developed through practice and practical application. Dr. Kahneman makes the point in the video that athletes, chess players, firefighters, nurses and others who practice and operate within a specific arena have a higher level of subconscious processing within that arena and situations like it.


Have you read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell? http://www.amazon.com/Blink-Power-Thinking-Without/dp/0316010669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261485231&sr=8-1 It is IMO an important book for any martial artist. In the book, he discusses the adaptaive unconscious (what you refer to as "intuitive thinking") and the research pertaining to it. This is not some "higher" level of subconscious processing, but simply a part of our everyday, ordinary mental processing. And when we develop a skill, that process is naturally involved.



The nurse who correctly diagnoses a party guest and saves their life; the basketball player who pulls back the old lady about to step off the curb into traffic; the firefighter who tells everyone to get out of the building because something's not right. While these may not be their specific arenas, and they're "off the clock" so to speak, they are still able to use their abilities, outside even of their own consciousness.


Most of what we do is outside our consciousness.



So here's a question. Suppose you came to realize that your constant practice in a particular domain was coming in handy in another part of your life. What would you do with this information?


The adaptive unconscious is already a natural part of your mental processing in all aspects of your life. It's not something that "transfers" or something you learn -- it is the normal working of your brain. Read the book.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Have you read "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell? http://www.amazon.com/Blink-Power-Thinking-Without/dp/0316010669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261485231&sr=8-1 It is IMO an important book for any martial artist. In the book, he discusses the adaptaive unconscious (what you refer to as "intuitive thinking") and the research pertaining to it. This is not some "higher" level of subconscious processing, but simply a part of our everyday, ordinary mental processing. And when we develop a skill, that process is naturally involved.

I've heard of Malcolm Gladwell, he's referred to quite frequently (even the video above mentions his work.) I just got a bookstore gift card for Christmas, so I'll go and grab "Blink." Thanks for the tip.



Most of what we do is outside our consciousness.

The adaptive unconscious is already a natural part of your mental processing in all aspects of your life. It's not something that "transfers" or something you learn -- it is the normal working of your brain. Read the book.

Hmm, I think you think I'm thinking (!) that we need to do "non-specific" training for successful combat skill or to "train" the adaptive subconscious. Just so we're clear, This is not what I'm proposing. I understand that skill comes from repetition. Just as we are what we eat, we are also what we do - regardless of what we do or whether we "think" we're training or not. Of course, if we organize our actions around specific situations, we'll develop greater skill in those situations than in others.

[anerlich]

"Blink" is worth reading. I just read "Outliers", also by MG, and that was worth reading as well. "The Tipping Point" is on my list for the holiday break.

X3M4, I plan to look at the vid after the big day tomorrow and I have some time. You raised some interesting points.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

"Blink" is worth reading. I just read "Outliers", also by MG, and that was worth reading as well. "The Tipping Point" is on my list for the holiday break.

X3M4, I plan to look at the vid after the big day tomorrow and I have some time. You raised some interesting points.

Ok, so I have "Blink." I read the intro on the bus, and am into chapter 1. Good stuff so far. Thanks again for the recommendation Terence.

Anerlich: cool. Lemme know what you think.

Happy Holidays everyone. :)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

So I finished reading Blink. Terence, that was a great book, thanks for recommending it. It's nice to have common sources from which to discuss. Have you read any of Paul Ekman's work yet?

V.J. Ramachandran is another author worth reading, specifically "Phantoms in the Brain." He talks more about how we perceive than how we decide, though.