The Shoot

[kfson]

I don't care what your style is, how do YOU handle the shoot without going to ground fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't care what your style is, how do YOU handle the shoot without going to ground fighting.

Knock him out before he shoots in.

[David Jamieson]

sprawl and get the hooks in like anyone else I guess.

except for glorified kickboxers like SR there who will try the knock punch to the back of the head with teh deadly conditioned kungfu elbow (TM)

[kfson]

sprawl and get the hooks in like anyone else I guess.

except for glorified kickboxers like SR there who will try the knock punch to the back of the head with teh deadly conditioned kungfu elbow (TM)

But sprawl will bring you down to ground fighting.

[David Jamieson]

But sprawl will bring you down to ground fighting.

so?

so what if it does?

[bawang]

But sprawl will bring you down to ground fighting.

no
//////////////////

[kfson]

so?

So what if it does?


i don't care what your style is, how do you handle the shoot without going to ground fighting.

if you can read this, thank a soldier.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sprawl and get the hooks in like anyone else I guess.

except for glorified kickboxers like SR there who will try the knock punch to the back of the head with teh deadly conditioned kungfu elbow (TM)

I said BEFORE he shoots.
Its how I roll.

[kfson]

I said BEFORE he shoots.
Its how I roll.
^^^
That's the beauty of longer range styles.
Styles that like to stay close can what... knee to the face at first shoot?

[IronWeasel]

I don't care what your style is, how do YOU handle the shoot without going to ground fighting.


1) Hammer fist to the back of the neck.


2) Take his wallet.


3) Send monehs to Bawang.

[sanjuro_ronin]

^^^
That's the beauty of longer range styles.
Styles that like to stay close can what... knee to the face at first shoot?

The last thing you want is to be on one leg VS a shoot, UNLESS you have all your weight commited FORWARD ( think jumping/flying knee) and it is far more overwhelming than his weight coming at you.
A tad risky.

[kfson]

1) Hammer fist to the back of the neck.



But the ideal Shoot also ties up or neutralizes the arms.

[bawang]

lap sao then bong sao. sink qi to dantian and clench anus. focus all your qi to shenzhong point then to baihui then to laogong. it will stop a shoot every time

[sanjuro_ronin]

lap sao then bong sao. sink qi to dantian and clench anus

HW8, is that you?

[bawang]

whats with som kung fu people refusing to use non kung fu techniques?

[kfson]

lap sao then bong sao. sink qi to dantian and clench anus. focus all your qi to shenzhong point then to baihui then to laogong. it will stop a shoot every time

OK, that's a good one. You see something similar in Taiji.

[MasterKiller]

Shoot is a verb.

The technique is called a Shot.

You shoot for the legs. You defend a shot.

[David Jamieson]

But sprawl will bring you down to ground fighting.

not always.

and if it does, so what.

do you honestly think you can pre-decide what will happen in conflict?

Newsflash, you cannot.

train for all ranges and if your style doesn't address them all, find a way to do that yourself.

[kfson]

Shoot is a verb.

The technique is called a Shot.

You shoot for the legs. You defend a shot.

Corrected.

[kfson]

not always.

and if it does, so what.

do you honestly think you can pre-decide what will happen in conflict?

Newsflash, you cannot.

train for all ranges and if your style doesn't address them all, find a way to do that yourself.

Some can. It is called reading your opponent's mind.

[David Jamieson]

Some can. It is called reading your opponent's mind.

Some? Like who? Who are these people that are magical like unicorns? :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

While we can read our opponents body, with enough training, we certianly can't read his intent or mind.

[kfson]

While we can read our opponents body, with enough training, we certianly can't read his intent or mind.

Ontario crew: jees, it happens everyday and is common knowledge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ontario crew: jees, it happens everyday and is common knowledge.

I am open to seeing your evidence of "mind reading".

[David Jamieson]

I am open to seeing your evidence of "mind reading".

me too and none of that kreskin shyte either. lol

[IronWeasel]

But the ideal Shoot also ties up or neutralizes the arms.



Nah.

If he's that high up on me...I'll go for a throw.

[Yum Cha]

Shoot is a verb.

The technique is called a Shot.

You shoot for the legs. You defend a shot.

Ok, so...

you take a shot and shoot your shot, without catching a knee shot, or an elbow shot as you shoot for the leg shot. Once you've shot your shoot and you get the shot, you start landing the big shots until the other guy is totally shot.

That about right? :p

[Yum Cha]

me too and none of that kreskin shyte either. lol

LOL, I can read a couple of minds right now....:D

[kfson]

I am open to seeing your evidence of "mind reading".

Buddhists do it.
Daoists do it.
Hindis do it.
Rosicrucians do it.
Freemasons do it.
OTO members do it.
Indian "medicine men" do it.

And I'm sure they all do "IT" also, or at least their parents did..

[Lucas]

i dont think about reading minds. but sometimes you can read a persons physical intentions. there are numerous factors involved though. ones perception and ablility to process the information quicly being paramount.

ive done it more than once and been right.

a 'gut' feeling, or what have you.

[David Jamieson]

Buddhists do it.
Daoists do it.
Hindis do it.
Rosicrucians do it.
Freemasons do it.
OTO members do it.
Indian "medicine men" do it.

And I'm sure they all do "IT" also, or at least their parents did..

Wow just what the forum needs, another deluded and sad troll.

Or,

Wow, just what the forum needs, another account for Hardwork108, I wonder when he'll start talking to himself and validating his own position!? lol

[Yum Cha]

me too and none of that kreskin shyte either. lol


I am open to seeing your evidence of "mind reading".


Wow just what the forum needs, another deluded and sad troll.
l

I KNEW you were going to say that!

[David Jamieson]

I KNEW you were going to say that!

Being predictable is not the same as having your mind read.

[MasterKiller]

You know, the problem with the original question is that most people don't take a shot until they are already in grappling range to begin with.

I was always taught that if you can't reach out and touch them, you are too far to shoot.

[goju]

i like a shoot counter fumio demura did in masters magazine

he sprawled first then grabded the shooters gi at his back and drug him down face first to the floor then he slammed his head on the floor LOL:D

[Lucas]

Being predictable is not the same as having your mind read.

and thats a huge aspect in reading someones intention. predictability in the person, predictability in a forced situation, etc.

[IronWeasel]

Wow just what the forum needs, another deluded and sad troll.

Or,

Wow, just what the forum needs, another account for Hardwork108, I wonder when he'll start talking to himself and validating his own position!? lol




Well...it took three pages of posts for him to reveal himself.

good eye, though DJ.:)

[Hebrew Hammer]

As he's taking the shot, through your coffee in his/her face, pivot counter clockwise off your back foot and run away. If you don't have some coffee, don't get into a fight with a grappler/shooter/ shotter.

Moral of the story don't get in a fight unless you're at a Starbucks.

[Merryprankster]

A sprawl does not take you to groundfighting, nor must you be in an extended grappling situation after one.

A good shot does not usually tie up the arms. A shot is a leg attack, usually. It may clear the hands as part of the set up, but the opponents arms are most often free.

Knocking out your opponent before they shoot sounds nice, but most people find it difficult to just "knock somebody out," when they don't want to stand there and let you sock them on the night-night button.

If you want to learn to defend the shot, and stay on your feet, learn to sprawl properly. Simple, effective, and adaptable.

Any other answer, barring a projectile weapon, is retarded.

[Knifefighter]

A sprawl does not take you to groundfighting, nor must you be in an extended grappling situation after one.

A good shot does not usually tie up the arms. A shot is a leg attack, usually. It may clear the hands as part of the set up, but the opponents arms are most often free.

Knocking out your opponent before they shoot sounds nice, but most people find it difficult to just "knock somebody out," when they don't want to stand there and let you sock them on the night-night button.

If you want to learn to defend the shot, and stay on your feet, learn to sprawl properly. Simple, effective, and adaptable.

Any other answer, barring a projectile weapon, is retarded.

Good post with one exception. You can defend a shot without sprawling.

[Yum Cha]

There is a lot of talk about centre of gravity. How easy is it to shoot when your opponent is keeping their centre of gravity lower?

Granted, when your opponent is staying low, it opens other options, but simply, is it harder to shoot on an opponent that keeps their centre of gravity lower than yours?

One of those old wrestling and judo fundamentals...

The practical implication that I'm curious about is if you more experienced lads find keeping low is a pre-emptive or passive defence against the shoot?

Personally, I find it is.

[uki]

drop an elbow on the back of the head...

[Dragonzbane76]

Wow just what the forum needs, another deluded and sad troll.

Or,

Wow, just what the forum needs, another account for Hardwork108, I wonder when he'll start talking to himself and validating his own position!? lol

Haha it took you that long to figure that out. :)

Anyways Mr. Carpetbagger needs help on his sprawl because Internal TCMA have no such thing. we should help him out.

[David Jamieson]

I used to sprawl. Then I learned that the whole reason behind stances was to deal with mutiple people trying to grab/tackle you. I used to have a good sprawl, but now that move is retired for better technique. I did very specific training to be able to defend a shot and be in a good position to attack. I then tested this playing rugby when many people were trying to take me down. Its easier to do in a sparring setting, but even at a sprint the principles apply.





www.kungfuchengdu.com

rugby eh?

I like playing it to when I can. Being a canuck, there is not a lot of opportunity to do so.

I think we get about 3 days a year when the ground is soft enough. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Knocking out your opponent before they shoot sounds nice, but most people find it difficult to just "knock somebody out," when they don't want to stand there and let you sock them on the night-night button.

I simple said KO to make my point of taking the guy out BEFORE he has a chance to shot in.
The KO is the ideal outcome of course, but doing enough to keep him "honest" can be "good enough" too.

I have seen guys get taking out by punches, elbows, knees and round kicks as they were "staring" their shooting in, its a timing thing of course, you either need to "stop hit" them at the sweet point or you need to "side step" and counter it.
But the crux is NOT letting them get their hands on you.

And no, elbows to the back of the head or knees after they have closed and have contact with you do not work that well as is evidence by countless clips you can find on youtube if one is so inclined to search.

[uki]

i like to train with a hsing-i concept in mind... every strike that is issued forth is the fight ender. every one. doesn't matter if they don't end the fight, the intention remains the same... it's the only plausible way to develop efficient striking ability.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i like to train with a hsing-i concept in mind... every strike that is issued forth is the fight ender. every one. doesn't matter if they don't end the fight, the intention remains the same... it's the only plausible way to develop efficient striking ability.

I agree, but can you and do you?
I mean, and I am not tooting my own horn here, I can because I have done so, consistently and VS your typical street guy AND trained fighter.
What about You?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Video of Hardwork 108 doing Take Down Defense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dppqcOVH2Wg

Enjoy:D

[David Jamieson]

Video of Hardwork 108 doing Take Down Defense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dppqcOVH2Wg

Enjoy:D

are you kidding?

that defense in context to a real aggressor would fall apart faster than a chinese apartment building. :D

[Kansuke]

But sprawl will bring you down to ground fighting.




You will not avoid that. Stop dreaming.

[sanjuro_ronin]

are you kidding?

that defense in context to a real aggressor would fall apart faster than a chinese apartment building. :D

He fold faster then a 2 dollar crack ***** getting falcon punched by her pimp !

[Kansuke]

^^^
That's the beauty of longer range styles.
Styles that like to stay close can what... knee to the face at first shoot?



Great. And the other 99 times out of 100 you'll be on your ass.

[Kansuke]

shoot is a verb.

The technique is called a shot.

You shoot for the legs. You defend a shot.



thank you!

[Kansuke]

Nah.

If he's that high up on me...I'll go for a throw.


You don't have to be/remain high to clear the arms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great. And the other 99 times out of 100 you'll be on your ass.

I have said this more often than I care to mention.
The basic goal of shooting in on someone is to unbalance them and take them to the ground, if you are on one leg that is just easier to do.
People don't seem the grasp this though...

[Kansuke]

You know, the problem with the original question is that most people don't take a shot until they are already in grappling range to begin with.

I was always taught that if you can't reach out and touch them, you are too far to shoot.



You were taught right.

[Kansuke]

Some can. It is called reading your opponent's mind.


You're an idiot.

[Kansuke]

is it harder to shoot on an opponent that keeps their centre of gravity lower than yours?



No, not necessarily.

[Kansuke]

I used to have a good sprawl, but now that move is retired for better technique.




................. :rolleyes:

[Kansuke]

Video of Hardwork 108 doing Take Down Defense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dppqcOVH2Wg

Enjoy:D



.........yikes.

[Kansuke]

I have said this more often than I care to mention.
The basic goal of shooting in on someone is to unbalance them and take them to the ground, if you are on one leg that is just easier to do.
People don't seem the grasp this though...


Because fantasy is more fun...

[Dragonzbane76]

funny to me that a lot of "tma" think that to defend against the shot you have time. If you've never seen someone good at shooting then go watch some high school wrestling vids and remind yourself. the quick explosiveness that can be generated for double or single is probably beyond most 'masters' in TMA. But they try and come up with the complicated 'counters' to the shot. THE BEAUTY OF THE SHOT IS THAT ITS SIMPLISTIC IN NATURE. That is what makes it extremely effective. sprawling is probably one of the only answers you have time for when someone of marginal skill is doing it to you unless you can get some underhooks under there shoulders but again time is a factor.

Uki kindly pointed out dropping an elbow on the back of the head. But what he failed to realize is that most shot to double or single generate force and the force pushed you back unable to throw the elbow. Again time, you don't have time to throw the elbow because your looking up at the sky from your back.

[Lucas]

i always like to look at the most simple answers first. which for this one is of course the sprawl. (or in SR's case, punching the fuker in the head before he goes for the shot ;) ) For sure there are a ton of things you could do, if it works out that way and you happen to actually pull them off. but being versed in the most obvious, quickest, and most simple defense is always a good idea. maybe a elbow to the back of the head once you've stuffed the attempt if he struggles to continue. lots of factors and most have to be split second instant responses.

having a good sprawl and executing on time can even the playing field, if you successfully stop the takedown with a sprawl you can obtain the upperhand if you can out wrestle the guy, or perhaps force him to chance his tactic. maybe get your own sweep/takdown/throw out of the deal, or maybe he just is too fast or to strong or too good, or your momentum was going the wrong way, or you slipped, etc. then you are fighting on the ground.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was once fighting this reknown grappler and 11th degree BB in BJJ and he went in for a shoot, I arrow punched him in the head and drove his head back into his body and right out his arse.

I would recommend this counter to all, but you are just a bunch of puny mortals that can't even juggle iron balls !
:p

[Pork Chop]

if do right
no can defend...
http://www.fileitunder.com/uploaded_images/body_shots-747483.jpg

[WinterPalm]

rugby eh?

I like playing it to when I can. Being a canuck, there is not a lot of opportunity to do so.

I think we get about 3 days a year when the ground is soft enough. :D

God **** Ontarians...we're lucky if we see the ground at all!:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now, this is a shot
http://scanned.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/jelloshot.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

An interesting counter to the shot:
http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008/6/26jul9-jello-shots-done-right.jpg

[Yum Cha]

... if you are on one leg that is (takedown) just easier to do.
People don't seem the grasp this though...


This is one of the foundation principles of using weight and stance to attack or defend.

A simple lesson, but all to often lost in the complexity of it all. Good advice in all situations...

[Pork Chop]

lateral movement is important....
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n38/danosimp3/Tequila-body-shot.jpg

[Pork Chop]

also important to have options...

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/5/27/633790335887339935-tequilaorrum.jpg

[Yum Cha]

Grappling against 'TMA' is a pretty broad statement.

Lets break it down, Northern, Southern, Chin Na..... see my point?

Some southern styles maintain the contact, i.e. the bridge. Some don't.

Bridge fighters are good at up close 'dirty boxing'. And, putting their weight on you to attack your balance. Lots of grabbing, pulling and pushing makes it a bit harder to just shoot in, because your acceleration is slowed, and you can get jammed or diverted.

Now, this isn't a patent defence against grappling, its just one of those things that create a more difficult environment and perhaps shift a few points in your favour.

Drop and move forward is less powerfull than a proper one motion shot - BANG!

I think its fair to say, in clinch fighting, the shot is replaced by the upper body takedown, trip, fall back, judo throws, etc.... No free rides, just a different situation.


So, could we say one way to defend the shoot is work the clinch and defend against the upper body takedowns instead, if that is your strong suit?

[Yum Cha]

Ok, sod this discussion, bring on the Body shots!

Lesson in strategy.....

Start body shots. Get the blokes going and salt up the girls. Most fools won't know when to stop, with the predictable consequences.

You're left with salt all over your hands, what's left of the grog, a bunch of only half wasted chicks, and all the blokes are passed out.

Like I said. Patience... Ok Sanjuro, that rate against a couple of your more challenging matches?

[Pork Chop]

Lesson in strategy.....

Start body shots. Get the blokes going and salt up the girls. Most fools won't know when to stop, with the predictable consequences.
....


this is true

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg309/BobJeter/Posters/bodyshots.jpg

[Pork Chop]

... Ok Sanjuro, that rate against a couple of your more challenging matches?

i think he's otherwise detained...

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz90/ericporkchop/BodyShots1999Unrated-koiavi_0026037.jpg

or at least he should be...

http://www.geekologie.com/2009/06/29/im%20in%20love.jpg

[Frost]

There is a lot of talk about centre of gravity. How easy is it to shoot when your opponent is keeping their centre of gravity lower?

Granted, when your opponent is staying low, it opens other options, but simply, is it harder to shoot on an opponent that keeps their centre of gravity lower than yours?

One of those old wrestling and judo fundamentals...

The practical implication that I'm curious about is if you more experienced lads find keeping low is a pre-emptive or passive defence against the shoot?

Personally, I find it is.


being lower helps however as you say it also gives the attacker other options, also how low do you need to get? good wrestlers shoot so fecking low that it is impossible to be low enough to stop them getting under you its why you sprawl getting the hips to the floor is sometimes the only way to stop them getting under you.

and to shoot i don't need to be lower than you all the time just when i am abut to shoot, and it take a split second for a good grappler to get low and explode. the best thing about having a low centre of gravity is that it allows you to sprawl quicker

[Frost]

Grappling against 'TMA' is a pretty broad statement.

Lets break it down, Northern, Southern, Chin Na..... see my point?

Some southern styles maintain the contact, i.e. the bridge. Some don't.

Bridge fighters are good at up close 'dirty boxing'. And, putting their weight on you to attack your balance. Lots of grabbing, pulling and pushing makes it a bit harder to just shoot in, because your acceleration is slowed, and you can get jammed or diverted.

Now, this isn't a patent defence against grappling, its just one of those things that create a more difficult environment and perhaps shift a few points in your favour.

Drop and move forward is less powerfull than a proper one motion shot - BANG!

I think its fair to say, in clinch fighting, the shot is replaced by the upper body takedown, trip, fall back, judo throws, etc.... No free rides, just a different situation.


So, could we say one way to defend the shoot is work the clinch and defend against the upper body takedowns instead, if that is your strong suit?

not really no because the shot is the one takedown you can hit without resorting to clinching your opponent, yes i need to be in range but i do not need to have actual contact with you. if you are looking to clinch with me without defending the shot then you are doing what i want you to do; moving forward and consentrating on my upper body. yes having a good clinch aids in stopping some lower body attacks but it does not help stop the shoot.

In grappling mode i am not really worried about styles that use the bridge, dirty boxing etc and come at you with forward momentum...it allows me to work in my world more, i am more worried by guys with heavy hands that keep me on the end of their punches and have good lateral movement and can mirror my level change.

Now if you have a good clinch and good bridging/dirty boxing (and having a good bridge and good clinch skills are not the same) can befend the shot and have heavy hands then i am fecked... just as well i am not on sanjuro ronins bad side :D

[Frost]

I used to sprawl. Then I learned that the whole reason behind stances was to deal with mutiple people trying to grab/tackle you. I used to have a good sprawl, but now that move is retired for better technique. I did very specific training to be able to defend a shot and be in a good position to attack. I then tested this playing rugby when many people were trying to take me down. Its easier to do in a sparring setting, but even at a sprint the principles apply.[/url]


i did specific training to defend a shot too... it was called grappling with good wrestlers and i found out that using different stances got me single legged, high crotched and all manner of horrible things.... but then i tested it against proper shots and not rugby tackles (hint there is a differenece between the two)

[Yum Cha]

not really no because the shot is the one takedown you can hit without resorting to clinching your opponent, yes i need to be in range but i do not need to have actual contact with you. if you are looking to clinch with me without defending the shot then you are doing what i want you to do; moving forward and consentrating on my upper body. yes having a good clinch aids in stopping some lower body attacks but it does not help stop the shoot.

Thanks, makes total sense. To me you are essentially saying that the shoot is the attack of the attack, key timing being the transition opportunity. Once you are in the clinch, its a different set of opportunities.


In grappling mode i am not really worried about styles that use the bridge, dirty boxing etc and come at you with forward momentum...it allows me to work in my world more, i am more worried by guys with heavy hands that keep me on the end of their punches and have good lateral movement and can mirror my level change.

Champion.


Now if you have a good clinch and good bridging/dirty boxing (and having a good bridge and good clinch skills are not the same) can befend the shot and have heavy hands then i am fecked... just as well i am not on sanjuro ronins bad side :D

Thanks for the great reply Frost.

Bridging, in my game is a cross between a check or a shove, and a grab is usually involved, or some other kind of sticking or application of dead weight. Its just an instant, a transition. The choice from there is to move into a clinch, and some of our clinching is a bit unconventional, and work from there, or to start trying to strike. What most people find hard to deal with is that stickyness that traps the arm that should be blocking the concurrent attack, or shoves them off balance and keeps them there. You know how judoka and college wrestlers battle for hand position, its a bit like that only a bit faster..well, maybe more than a bit.

Because of that, I've had some success in choking out the shoot, into a sprawl when needed, or throwing it off sideways. I also learned how to grab the guillotine and fall back into full guard, and lock the guys hips so he can't get away, and find that a pretty good defence against the shoot... Sometimes, stone, sometimes water :D

And fair enough, I'm talking about playing around no gi, no striking other than the occasional slap to keep people honest, simply takedown evasion training. I miss my tricks and I'm a gumball....LOL.

[Kansuke]

i did specific training to defend a shot too... it was called grappling with good wrestlers and i found out that using different stances got me single legged, high crotched and all manner of horrible things.... but then i tested it against proper shots and not rugby tackles (hint there is a differenece between the two)


Great post.

[Kansuke]

You are assuming I didn't spend years training against wrestlers and grapplers.



Then why did you specifically say you "tested" your "better" technique by playing rugby?

[Frost]

You are assuming I didn't spend years training against wrestlers and grapplers. The fluid use of stances still works; particularly if you are hitting them back. Hint- Your personal ineptitude doesn't mean that stances don't work, only that yours don't. It also doesn't mean that the sprawl is the only way to deal with a proper shot. A proper shot doesn't come in at one direction it changes, so must your stances and your distribution. If you lack fluidity in your stances, you have no chance.

quite right i mean grapplers have got it all wrong who needs to sprawl hard, work the crossface and *****er like a motha fecker all you really need to do it change stances on him lol

and when i see anyone anywhere, in wrestling, submission grappling, MMA even rugby sucessfully defending the shot with a static stance i will acknowledge its superiority to spawling and my personal failings in making them work... but i won't hold my breath:D

oh and thanks for telling me how a proper shot is done heres me thinking you couldn't turn the corner with it :eek:

Oh and stances and hitting back sure works well in MMA, i wonder why we don't see it that much though in MMA events:confused:

for me personally shooting in MMA is easier than grappling, you can get their hands up higher, their stance higher and get them thinking about more things than just the take down, (but what do i know: i train against grapplers and not rugby people)

[Frost]

Then why did you specifically say you "tested" your "better" technique by playing rugby?

hey don't use logic here it has no place

[lkfmdc]

a strong indication your martial arts education is lacking is when you ASSUME you understand how another method works without exploring it. We've seen legions of TMA guys talk about boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and jiu jitsu only to demonstrate that they really don't understand them at all

Until you've worked with a bunch of good wrestlers, you can't understand how it works and how you'll feel when they attack. Most of the TMA "demonstrations on how to stop a shot" are pathetic

[Frost]

Thanks, makes total sense. To me you are essentially saying that the shoot is the attack of the attack, key timing being the transition opportunity. Once you are in the clinch, its a different set of opportunities.





Champion.



Thanks for the great reply Frost.

Bridging, in my game is a cross between a check or a shove, and a grab is usually involved, or some other kind of sticking or application of dead weight. Its just an instant, a transition. The choice from there is to move into a clinch, and some of our clinching is a bit unconventional, and work from there, or to start trying to strike. What most people find hard to deal with is that stickyness that traps the arm that should be blocking the concurrent attack, or shoves them off balance and keeps them there. You know how judoka and college wrestlers battle for hand position, its a bit like that only a bit faster..well, maybe more than a bit.

Because of that, I've had some success in choking out the shoot, into a sprawl when needed, or throwing it off sideways. I also learned how to grab the guillotine and fall back into full guard, and lock the guys hips so he can't get away, and find that a pretty good defence against the shoot... Sometimes, stone, sometimes water :D

And fair enough, I'm talking about playing around no gi, no striking other than the occasional slap to keep people honest, simply takedown evasion training. I miss my tricks and I'm a gumball....LOL.

the shot is the takedown that can happen without having to clinch, and yes timing is everything on it, and i think the key point to remember here is most good wrestlers don't think the shot ends with the enterance and control of your hips/legs, they expect to have to fight for the takedown, this means anything from llifting and slamming to turning the corner, sitting out, coming up to a body lock, switching to a single or high crotch etc if you have access to a good wrestler you will see how quickly they can change, its one of the resons for sprawling its a fast gross motor movement that enables you to keep up with him.

if your bridging envolves all that then it does sound alot like hand fighting, do you include body locks, underhooks etc in your bridging/sticking training?

i find shooting without setting up with strikes harder, i like to bring their guard up and keep them in a higher stance with my punches, but i also do sub grappling so train it non strikes and like falling to the guard too, one of the reasons that in sub grappling they perfer to shoot and change direction and drive sideways rather than straight back, it cuts out the guard:D

[Frost]

a strong indication your martial arts education is lacking is when you ASSUME you understand how another method works without exploring it. We've seen legions of TMA guys talk about boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and jiu jitsu only to demonstrate that they really don't understand them at all

Until you've worked with a bunch of good wrestlers, you can't understand how it works and how you'll feel when they attack. Most of the TMA "demonstrations on how to stop a shot" are pathetic

as i said above please stop using logic:)

you are right though unless you have seen how low, fast and explosive a wrestler can be, and how quickly they can change direction then your take down defence is really just theory and you will be in for a rude awakening

[Kansuke]

as i said above please stop using logic:)

you are right though unless you have seen how low, fast and explosive a wrestler can be, and how quickly they can change direction then your take down defence is really just theory and you will be in for a rude awakening


What? Playing Rugby isn't just as good for training takedown defense?

[Frost]

What? Playing Rugby isn't just as good for training takedown defense?

its very good for treaching you how to deal with aggresive guys looking to stop you in your tracks and dump you on your ass, but its not quite the same as wrestling or learning to defend a shot... at least not how its played here in the UK:D

[Kansuke]

its very good for treaching you how to deal with aggresive guys looking to stop you in your tracks and dump you on your ass, but its not quite the same as wrestling or learning to defend a shot... at least not how its played here in the UK:D


But...but Andy said...

[Frost]

But...but Andy said...

well he is in china perhaps they play rugby differently there :eek:

anyway he has gone from training against rugby guys to training against wrestlers so god only knows what he will say next :D

[bawang]

i think some people have a phobia against wrestling because they were bulied in school ,and they thought kung fu is where a small guy beats a bigger guy with exotic techniques
or maybe they learn kung fu just to have the fantasy of beating their bully

[Kansuke]

We never bullied anyone! That was the Chess Club.

[bawang]

trying to stop a tackle with horse stance is a good way to break your spine.

peope who stop takedowns with horse stance train standing post with 200 pound weights on their back and 200 pound stone slab on their thighs. you cant just do wobbly horse stance for 20 minutes and think you can stop takedowns. i tried using horse stance and got kneed in the face and knocked out

[Kansuke]

And it can't be good for the horse either! (poor animals)

[bawang]

whay do u make fun of me? im not making big talk. i said i tried using horse stance and got knocked out
fuk to you

[Pob]

We never bullied anyone! That was the Chess Club.

First they set you up with e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3, next they're yelling "pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo" and strapping you to the chair with your tie. Bloody grammar schools!

[Yum Cha]

i did specific training to defend a shot too... it was called grappling with good wrestlers and i found out that using different stances got me single legged, high crotched and all manner of horrible things.... but then i tested it against proper shots and not rugby tackles (hint there is a differenece between the two)


What? Playing Rugby isn't just as good for training takedown defense?

Just checking, have you ever played Rugby?

Its an interesting discussion, as I can see what Andy is saying, I think.

I don't consider "stance" a static concept, I consider it 'footwork' being the total of stance, movement and centre of gravity 'management(?). Wrestlers are dynamic in their movement, the shot is a massive commitment of body weight, as well as some other weakening attack, like a trip, tangle, trap, etc.

There's a lot of talk about lateral movement, that is footwork. See where I'm going?

But more to the point, meeting a shot and turning it off sideways is a lot like two immovable forces coming together. If you have a better foundation, the other force is the one that will 'leak' out somewhere else, especially if you direct it there. Putting it into conventional terms, think two guys clashing into a body lock. Better stance gets the slam, right?

So, from that point of view, I can say, yes, my stance skills come into play. But my overall attitude is, who would expect otherwise?

I don't know for sure if Andy is talking about that, as the current interchange in that thread is a little diffused...

You know, I'm a TCMA guy, through and through. I started with a broad base, but went for depth when I discovered Pak Mei in 86. We study and look at other arts, and look at the strategies to fight them, maybe even steal a good move here or there. CLF, Wing Chun, Pak Hok, Mui Thai, Karate, Boxing, etc.

To do so with wrestling is no different in my mind, other than the practical side of actually rolling.

To my mind, this is what martial artists do. Art is in the doing, not in the having done.

[Kansuke]

think two guys clashing into a body lock. Better stance gets the slam, right?

...................................


Um, no, not really.

[Yum Cha]

i think some people have a phobia against wrestling because they were bulied in school ,and they thought kung fu is where a small guy beats a bigger guy with exotic techniques
or maybe they learn kung fu just to have the fantasy of beating their bully


I have a phobia of blond, skinny 17 year old girls that smell of patuli oil with cherry red lipstick, bare midriffs and embroidered Indian Cotton hippy shirts. Put some flowers in their hair, and I'm practically paralytic!

Can you guess who worked me over in High School? I did pick up some exotic techniques, and conquered a few opponents above my class, though...

Different kind of wrestling, I suppose... Sorry, off topic.

[Kansuke]

Just checking, have you ever played Rugby?



Yes. A 'tackle' is not very much like a shot at all.

[Yum Cha]

...................................


Um, no, not really.


How granular do you want to get?

[Kansuke]

How granular do you want to get?


Like a fine talcum powder... :cool:

[Yum Cha]

Yes. A 'tackle' is not very much like a shot at all.

What about in the Ruck and Maul? A taking a clearout? Rolling the ball carrier and staying onside, on your feet?

We're talking union here, not league here, where most of the pro teams have BJJ coaches on staff, where the 'grapple tackle' has forced a raft of rule changes over the last three about lifting and taking the opponents head.

Anyway, League aside, you take my point about the ruck in Union?

[Yum Cha]

Like a fine talcum powder... :cool:

'no' is like fine talcum powder?

[Kansuke]

'no' is like fine talcum powder?


You have to read into it...

[Kansuke]

What about in the Ruck and Maul? A taking a clearout? Rolling the ball carrier and staying onside, on your feet?

We're talking union here, not league here, where most of the pro teams have BJJ coaches on staff, where the 'grapple tackle' has forced a raft of rule changes over the last three about lifting and taking the opponents head.

Anyway, League aside, you take my point about the ruck in Union?



It's still a matter of trying to force a comparison out of context. Bringing in a BJJ coach might have some benefit to Rugby players but how many wrestling programs hire Rugby coaches to help with takedown defense?

[Yum Cha]

...if your bridging envolves all that then it does sound alot like hand fighting, do you include body locks, underhooks etc in your bridging/sticking training?

Our bridging transitions into some arm locks, and we grab stuff, do arm drags, barges, but the critical concept to the bridge is that it lasts no longer than it needs, i.e. if it does, it becomes something different. Grabs and drags are harder. We use a lot of traps too, but our traps aren't designed to hold you for more than just a second, or the time it takes to hit the target that the trap is opening. Everything has two sides. If I grab something and I beat it, I know the target. If I grap something, and I get pushed off, I know the target.

Not much different than rolling around and looking for the hold, starting something then attacking the defence your opponent puts up...same diff.



...but i also do sub grappling so train it non strikes and like falling to the guard too, one of the reasons that in sub grappling they perfer to shoot and change direction and drive sideways rather than straight back, it cuts out the guard:D

Thanks for that bit of a reminder, so, a moment too late, I'll know I'm dealing with trouble...LOL!

Am I hearing you also say, than when you are striking, you don't like to have someone in your guard? Do you train BJJ or another grappling style?

[Yum Cha]

It's still a matter of trying to force a comparison out of context. Bringing in a BJJ coach might have some benefit to Rugby players but how many wrestling programs hire Rugby coaches to help with takedown defense?


Forcing a comparison out of context? How is this different to cross training?

Granted, a 5kg dumbell can do a lot of damage, and I've seen track shoe spikes that f-you up, and a nice jumprope with weighted handles is a deadly thing indeed. See a guy work a double ended surf ski paddle like a shaolin monk once. I'm not evengoing to go into 'tennis ball of death'....

However, the sport of rugby has nothing to offer?

BTW, when you live in a non-rugby playing country, there is no shame in admitting you know nothing about the game.:D I was simply offering to explain some of the subtleties of the game and its relevance to cross training.

Want to know about War? Check out an All Black Haka!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU4B-NBuCgo

100 years ago, they would have eaten you.

[Pob]

100 years ago, they would have eaten you.

It's true, not much stance or sprawl training about then. As soon as you're off your feet WHOOSH you're a kebab.

[Kansuke]

However, the sport of rugby has nothing to offer?




Who said that? We were specifically talking about takedown defense.

[Kansuke]

100 years ago, they would have eaten you.



100 years ago? You might want to think about that one again.
Making funny faces doesn't stand a chance against old school imperialism.

[B.Tunks]

100 years ago? You might want to think about that one again.
Making funny faces doesn't stand a chance against old school imperialism.

Actually old school imperialism had it's hands full with the Maori.

[Yum Cha]

Actually old school imperialism had it's hands full with the Maori.

Still does! LOL!

Anybody for a Pakiea Hungy? Meat just falls off the bone.....:p


Hands down, the All Black Haka is the second most fearsome event in sport, next seeing one of them Predator looking dudes coming at you with blood in his eye.

Naturally, only the superior skill and technique of the Wallabies can conquer them on a regular basis. The rest of the world is their b1tch.

[Kansuke]

............................................

[Frost]

What about in the Ruck and Maul? A taking a clearout? Rolling the ball carrier and staying onside, on your feet?

We're talking union here, not league here, where most of the pro teams have BJJ coaches on staff, where the 'grapple tackle' has forced a raft of rule changes over the last three about lifting and taking the opponents head.

Anyway, League aside, you take my point about the ruck in Union?

Yes I played at school and its about context, in rugby I am looking to stop the attacker in his tracks or bring him down on the game line and strip him of the ball, , he is normally moving towards me not me towards him (unless it’s a rush defence we are using and even then its normally a hard mid line tackle shoulder in arms around and trying to dislodge the ball) , in wrestling I am moving forward and want the momentum (I know this is not always the case with tackling but the majority of hits are made by the defence) In rugby I want to stop him and if possible strip him of the ball, not put him on his a*s and pin him, different context.

In rugby you never see guys hitting a low shot, (knees on the floor back straight driving through the opponent) it’s normally a mid level tackle so again different context. I know a lot of the pro teams in the UK have judo guys on staff, and call in MMA/wrestling coaches for help, not sure about having BJJ guys on tap over here as they are more interested in the takedown and hand fighting than ground work

Its like most sports different context even if they look similar, I mean you can learn a lot about defending a punch by playing rugby (and ice hockey or Oz rules football) a lot of the forwards hit pads for training arm strength and conditioning and don’t mind getting into a fight on the pitch doesn’t mean I would take up rugby to improve my boxing though :)

[Frost]

Our bridging transitions into some arm locks, and we grab stuff, do arm drags, barges, but the critical concept to the bridge is that it lasts no longer than it needs, i.e. if it does, it becomes something different. Grabs and drags are harder. We use a lot of traps too, but our traps aren't designed to hold you for more than just a second, or the time it takes to hit the target that the trap is opening. Everything has two sides. If I grab something and I beat it, I know the target. If I grap something, and I get pushed off, I know the target.

Not much different than rolling around and looking for the hold, starting something then attacking the defence your opponent puts up...same diff.




Thanks for that bit of a reminder, so, a moment too late, I'll know I'm dealing with trouble...LOL!

Am I hearing you also say, than when you are striking, you don't like to have someone in your guard? Do you train BJJ or another grappling style?

Sorry should have been clearer, I don’t like being in someone’s guard if at all possible when on top; I like to avoid it or pass to side control as soon as possible. Being on the bottom if strikes are allowed sucks, hence learning to sprawl defend takedowns and clinch. The guard is the best choice here if you have to be on the bottom, as you can tie your opponent up and attack with submissions or (my personal favourite) sweep or get back to your feet.

when shooting on someone in submission grappling or BJJ you tend to lift and slam or cut the corner so you arrive in side control, you aim to avoid being put in someone’s guard and potentially getting guillotined (if possible that is, sometimes you just need to score the take down and fight out of the guard, especially if time is almost up. And this is one of the reasons you don’t see a rugby type mid level spear tackle where you put the guy on his ass and then stand over him trying to get the ball that will get you choked.


I study submission grappling (basically no Gi BJJ) and MMA at a few places, my main club is Leicester shoot fighting

[Frost]

I mentioned rugby to show that it worked even when being bombarded from all directions. In taiji this is called all directional support. It is one thing to root in a clinch or even durring a tackle or a shot, its another to stay on your feet by responding to great force from random directions. Dealing with this great yang takes great yin. You can't develop this without pressure and resistance.

It is explained in detail here.

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/introduction-to-rooting-skill/

http://www.chineseboxing.com/Articles/rooting.html


Stances are not static, they are constantly flowing. The secret is in the circle and the triangle and applying these geometric concepts with real pressure. Some people come by this instinctively through practice. To really understand it, you have to look at the body mechanics in more detail. I find the best way to do this is with another person over my shoulders or with a weighted vest. Try clinch work with pressure that comes downward and you will quickly allign your posture.

The sprawl limits your hitting power and mobility. The true concept behind the sprawl is counterweighting. This can be done in a variety of ways, many of which allow you more mobility and striking power. The secret is in how power comes from the ground upward and how it goes from the extensions into the ground. I have developed a method of teaching this relatively quickly.

天地人 大助学， 命门穴， 为中学， 野蛮不明白 ；)


www.kungfuchengdu.com

Umm ok, so sprawling limits your mobility and power 9thats news to me and ever other grappler out there)…. And you have come up with ways that are better quicker and easier, you could make a fourtune in the States and Europe with this, guys hate learning to sprawl and fight off the take down I am sure Iowa would hire you in a heart beat, and if they did not then ATT or one of the other top MMA clubs would:D

[Yum Cha]

Sorry should have been clearer, I don’t like being in someone’s guard if at all possible when on top; I like to avoid it or pass to side control as soon as possible. Being on the bottom if strikes are allowed sucks....


Yea, when I first learned about the guard, I thought, 'this is a GOOD position?? Ok, I tend to think of it as a least worse position...LOL.

[Yum Cha]

Umm ok, so sprawling limits your mobility and power 9thats news to me and ever other grappler out there)…. And you have come up with ways that are better quicker and easier, you could make a fourtune in the States and Europe with this, guys hate learning to sprawl and fight off the take down I am sure Iowa would hire you in a heart beat, and if they did not then ATT or one of the other top MMA clubs would:D

And now we come to the real issue, better, quicker, easier?

Concerning Rugby, the BJJ guys were teaching head and neck tackles, and how to flip the tackled player over onto their back. They knocked all that on the head with new rules, the league was getting dangerous.

What rugby does, IMHO, is season you for the clash of bodies and the meeting of mass against mass. Strength training and hardening. Little pieces of the puzzle, not the whole thing.

[Frost]

Yea, when I first learned about the guard, I thought, 'this is a GOOD position?? Ok, I tend to think of it as a least worse position...LOL.

It is the least worst position on your back in MMA, and maybe the best position in straight sub grappling if its your strong point. (I am no expert guys like knifefighter and merryprankster are the real pros on here when it comes to grappling.)

You have more variety and more submissions/sweeps from this position than another, and that includes being on top in the mount. Side control etc. If you are stuck in someone’s closed guard and they are good you are constantly fighting to regain your balance, protect your limbs and stay safe, it is a nightmare. Now if strikes are added the equation changes, the guard is still dangerous for the person on top but the risk reward of holding the position changes (just like all positions do when strikes are added: Mount and back mount become kings of the top position etc). You start to eat punches if you miss submissions, holding closed guard becomes harder when you are getting hit, your tie ups change slightly, and the moves you favour also change (at least for me, less subs and more sweeps escapes)

Although having said all that I can’t count the number of times in training I have tapped someone out from guard when strikes are added whom I have great difficulty in tapping in normal grappling (for some unknown reason some guys forget all the basic rules of posture, both hands in or out etc, when they are allowed to hit you lol)

[Frost]

And now we come to the real issue, better, quicker, easier?

Concerning Rugby, the BJJ guys were teaching head and neck tackles, and how to flip the tackled player over onto their back. They knocked all that on the head with new rules, the league was getting dangerous.

What rugby does, IMHO, is season you for the clash of bodies and the meeting of mass against mass. Strength training and hardening. Little pieces of the puzzle, not the whole thing.


I know they implemented the no spear tackle (after what happened on the last lions tour to new Zealand) and that if you lifted a guy up about waist height and got his horizontal you had to lower him with control, but did not know they had stopped you rolling the guy over. Guys like wayne larkin are still teaching at clubs like leicester tigers over here

You are spot on Rugby is a great sport and great conditioning for fighting and getting you used to contact (personally I am more scared of getting into a fight with a rugby player than most TCMA guys or recreational sport guys), I have watched pro rugby players come down training and their levels of fitness strength and ability to take punishment is off the charts.

When it comes to better easier and quicker I tend to side with experience, I know the wrestling defences work against wrestling attacks because they have done for decades and in all contexts and all levels of competition, if the coaches could find a better easier and more effective methods they would… there’s a reason they all teach sprawling etc

[ShaolinTiger00]

The sprawl is the last line of takedown defense. If you've got to sprawl to stop the takedown you're already 2 steps behind him.

1) Level change. if you stay at the same level with your opponent it is very hard to be shot on.

2) hands & forearms, whether posting your forearms on his collar, underhooks, snapdowns or just posting on his head to stop him

3) the sprawl because if he's already gotten under your upperbody and thru your hands the only thing left to do is sprawl your legs back now and stick your **** in the dirt and look for ****zers hand control, head control.

If you want to learn how to stop wrestlers learn how to wrestle. Didn't any of you ever read Sun Tzu?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you want to learn how to stop wrestlers learn how to wrestle. Didn't any of you ever read Sun Tzu?

I've been saying that for centuries, I hope you have better luck !

[Kansuke]

If you want to learn how to stop wrestlers learn how to wrestle. Didn't any of you ever read Sun Tzu?




Amazing how some people can't/won't understand this.

[lkfmdc]

Amazing how some people can't/won't understand this.

TMA people far too often want to "deadly secret" ....

In no way saying wrestling is simple, but the methods to stop a takedown are direct, and a few good ones go a lot ****her than any "deadly secret"

[David Jamieson]

I wonder if kungfu guys all hangout at wrestling forums and ***** about how they would deal a kick to the head or a punch in the face. lol

I understand people who cross train.

I don't understand ma-ists who go to niches and complain about how that niche is not the same as theirs and therefor is ineffective against anything.

I also think that people who rag on MA in general no matter what it is are short sighted, think they are 'know it alls' and are just as empty minded as teh people they attack for being "incomplete".

meh. :)

I guess wrestlers got nothing better to do than troll kungfu forums.

Not too many trolls coming out of kf forums and telling wrestlers they are useless because they can't handle a sword. :D

[goju]

I wonder if kungfu guys all hangout at wrestling forums and ***** about how they would deal a kick to the head or a punch in the face. lol

we soudl all go to a wrestlingf orum and do that:D

[kfson]

They'll say, "What will your sword do against this 50 cal Casull?"

[goju]

i once saw a sparring match between my uncle who was a tdk master and a high school wrestling coach

when the wrestler shot in he sprawled and grab him by the waist and threw him over his shoulder lol

so that works i think:D

[taai gihk yahn]

Not too many trolls coming out of kf forums and telling wrestlers they are useless because they can't handle a sword. :D
I used to do it, but it takes over an hour to put on the special hat that I have to wear, and the song I have to sing after each post has grown to 428 verses, so it just becomes a bit prohibitive time-wise...

[Kansuke]

i once saw a sparring match between my uncle who was a tdk master and a high school wrestling coach

when the wrestler shot in he sprawled and grab him by the waist and threw him over his shoulder lol

so that works i think:D



Wow, that high school must have one ****ty wrestling team

[Yum Cha]

It is the least worst position on your back in MMA, and maybe the best position in straight sub grappling if its your strong point. (I am no expert guys like knifefighter and merryprankster are the real pros on here when it comes to grappling.)

....Although having said all that I can’t count the number of times in training I have tapped someone out from guard when strikes are added whom I have great difficulty in tapping in normal grappling (for some unknown reason some guys forget all the basic rules of posture, both hands in or out etc, when they are allowed to hit you lol)

You make a good and succinct point here, there are guys you can't beat just grappling, but when you add punching, you can out grapple them.

This is a key principle to me, as I recognise the same when it comes to fighting 'in style' as opposed to 'freestyle'. Here we go again! LOL. I find the same when fighting with weapons, people focus on the weapon and not on other attacks, if they are not experienced enough. I guess what it comes down to is not only the tools in your toolbox, but your craftsmanshp with each in its turn. From your bio, you are as experienced grappling (plus) as I am in striking (plus), and while we have significantly different technique based tactics, the consistent principles likewise show through, at least to me.


..but did not know they had stopped you rolling the guy over. Guys like wayne larkin are still teaching at clubs like leicester tigers over here

Sorry for the mis-communication, rolling over is still allowed and a key tactic in league to delay the play of the ball, and in union to go for the turnover. That's where they use the grappling now. They outlawed guillotine style tackles, head crank tackles, and neck control in the tackle. Along with the facewash....LOL.


You are spot on Rugby is a great sport and great conditioning for fighting and getting you used to contact (personally I am more scared of getting into a fight with a rugby player than most TCMA guys or recreational sport guys), I have watched pro rugby players come down training and their levels of fitness strength and ability to take punishment is off the charts.

When it comes to better easier and quicker I tend to side with experience, I know the wrestling defences work against wrestling attacks because they have done for decades and in all contexts and all levels of competition, if the coaches could find a better easier and more effective methods they would… there’s a reason they all teach sprawling etc

Rugby turns out hard men. Hard men make good fighters. I'm happy to leave it at that. :D

Proof of the pudding is in the taste. If it works, what more can you say, other than PRACTICE! LOL.

[kfson]

Rugby turns out hard men. Hard men make good fighters. I'm happy to leave it at that. :D

Proof of the pudding is in the taste. If it works, what more can you say, other than PRACTICE! LOL.

Can you imagine playing football without all that sissy equipment?

[Yum Cha]

TMA people far too often want to "deadly secret" ....

In no way saying wrestling is simple, but the methods to stop a takedown are direct, and a few good ones go a lot ****her than any "deadly secret"


Hai SiFU! Thank you for this deadly secret. I will treasure it forever and always bring honour on your name!

[Yum Cha]

i once saw a sparring match between my uncle who was a tdk master and a high school wrestling coach

when the wrestler shot in he sprawled and grab him by the waist and threw him over his shoulder lol

so that works i think:D

I once locked up with Ken Keasy, he was a wrestling coach. University of Oregon writers workshop. He rolled in looked at the assembled students and said, "Anybody wanna wrastle!" Don't know that anybody ever said Yea before....LOL.

Sorry, just can't miss the opportunity for a name drop....:D

[Kansuke]

Can you imagine playing football without all that sissy equipment?



The "sissy equipment" allows for collisions that would turn those 'hard' rugby players into paste.

[Yum Cha]

The "sissy equipment" allows for collisions that would turn those 'hard' rugby players into paste.

zero for 3, the man's on a roll!

[goju]

Wow, that high school must have one ****ty wrestling team

oh i knooooooooow!!! because its just absolutely impossible for a tma style to beat wrestling:rolleyes:

[Frost]

The "sissy equipment" allows for collisions that would turn those 'hard' rugby players into paste.

And 10 minutes into a union game those hard football players would be throwing up and asking for oxyqen :D

Its horses for courses, the padding allows for certain techniques that non padding does not (and probably pushes up the injury rate a lot), but unless you have had someone 20stone (280 pound for you guys across the pond) hit you lift you and slam you when all you have for protection is a gum shield and a box you can’t really compare the two sports. So lets all agree both sports produce bad mothers that could if they wanted tear you a new one :D

[Frost]

i once saw a sparring match between my uncle who was a tdk master and a high school wrestling coach

when the wrestler shot in he sprawled and grab him by the waist and threw him over his shoulder lol

so that works i think:D

I once saw a TDK blackbelt try to bite and hair pull my MMA coach during a friendly sparring match... that didn't work :D

[Kansuke]

zero for 3, the man's on a roll!




http://video.aol.com/video-detail/footballs-greatest-hits/2498363411

[Kansuke]

oh i knooooooooow!!! because its just absolutely impossible for a tma style to beat wrestling:rolleyes:



Via "when the wrestler shot in he sprawled and grab him by the waist and threw him over his shoulder"?

No, not unless that 'coach' truly, truly sucked.

[Frost]

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/footballs-greatest-hits/2498363411

search youtube for josh lewseys hit on matt rogers (which bust his ribs in several places and ruined his surfing hobby), or peter Richards suplexing a guy during the Saxons tour a few years ago, or any of Jonny Wilkinsons hits during the 2003 world cup :) Or for that matter any game involving Tonga or Samoa :)

Padding makes the game different, not tougher or harder

[sanjuro_ronin]

And 10 minutes into a union game those hard football players would be throwing up and asking for oxyqen :D

Its horses for courses, the padding allows for certain techniques that non padding does not (and probably pushes up the injury rate a lot), but unless you have had someone 20stone (280 pound for you guys across the pond) hit you lift you and slam you when all you have for protection is a gum shield and a box you can’t really compare the two sports. So lets all agree both sports produce bad mothers that could if they wanted tear you a new one :D

Having played both I van tell you this, BOTH produce some serious MOFU's !
American football is much more high impact, that is a given, but rugby is far more taxing and lots more "dirty".

[David Jamieson]

The "sissy equipment" allows for collisions that would turn those 'hard' rugby players into paste.

You have no clue do you. lol

you need to get out into the world and watch a game of rugger. Makes american footballers look like the pack of over protected puzzies that they are. Just big dudes with armour slamming each other. of cours ethey hit hard, they're covered in hard plastic, big deal. Take em out and see how they do on a rugger pitch.

rugger players on the other hand actually are tougher than nails to the man. You have to be.

and as for real football, Premier league all the way and Go Arsenal!!

[Pork Chop]

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/footballs-greatest-hits/2498363411

around 2:30 of that vid looks like Atwater vs Okoye...
i remember that hit
holy cr@p that was loud!
total car crash

[sanjuro_ronin]

One has only to look up "ronnie lott" of the 49'ers to see how much fun american football is, LOL !

[goju]

I once saw a TDK blackbelt try to bite and hair pull my MMA coach during a friendly sparring match... that didn't work :D

he must have pulled hair and bit like a *****:D

[Yum Cha]

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/footballs-greatest-hits/2498363411

You think Rugby doesn't have big hits? LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOgydegKGNs

And some Aussie Rugby League:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmk6IHPEyAY

spinning some guy up in the air, off balance is easy. Try taking down a predator hand to hand, square-on, on the trott.

BTW, note the great double leg takedowns at 52 seconds to a minute 10 in the first.

[B.Tunks]

rugby league is harder than union and american football.

[Lucas]

real life rugby situation:

when i was visiting trinidad i was hanging with a south african mate i met at the marina. we were walking through a small village town, caranage (SP) i believe is the name. We had just finished visiting with a couple of rastas up the hill and were walking down a hill in the street to head back to the street party. all of a sudden some guy comes rushing past us and grabs my buddies watch and rips it right off his wrist. without hesitation my mate rushed him from behind and slamed him into a car, busting the passenger window and sending the guy inside the car. he grabbed his watch and walked off. i told him 'that was tight' he said, 'hey years of rugby and surfing mate'

worked for me. a fight? no. real life? certainly. theif didnt even have a chance to fight back after that slam, we left him drooling in the car.


funny side story, that night we were COMPLETELY **** drunk and he fell off the back of this chicks catamaran 4 times. lost his wallet, glasses, and his watch. his grandmother gave him that watch before she passed, and now its at the bottom of some bay in trinidad lol

[Yum Cha]

Having played both I van tell you this, BOTH produce some serious MOFU's !
American football is much more high impact, that is a given, but rugby is far more taxing and lots more "dirty".

Well, maybe in Canada, but Aussie rugby players are all gentlemen, who don't cheat, don't drink, and don't associate with women of low moral fibre.

Ever go to the HK Sevens? Canada and the US send teams....:p

[Kansuke]

You think Rugby doesn't have big hits? LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOgydegKGNs

And some Aussie Rugby League:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmk6IHPEyAY

spinning some guy up in the air, off balance is easy. Try taking down a predator hand to hand, square-on, on the trott.

BTW, note the great double leg takedowns at 52 seconds to a minute 10 in the first.



Comparing the hits in those vids with the one I posted is like comparing a horrible wreck in a Nascar race with the bumper cars at a carnival, and if you think those 'takedowns' are instructive of how to execute or defend a double leg takedown you are really missing the point.

[Yum Cha]

Comparing the hits in those vids with the one I posted is like comparing a horrible wreck in a Nascar race with the bumper cars at a carnival, and if you think those 'takedowns' are instructive of how to execute or defend a double leg takedown you are really missing the point.

Hey! Chill out Dude! I don't expect you to believe anything, or think anything...

You have demonstrated you don't know sh1t long ago, in this and many other areas. No need to suffer under the misconception that anybody is actually paying any attention to what you think.

I just trolled you to turn my yank mates onto the Kiwi Haka and some groovy sport footage, you self important wanker....you just provided the opportunity on a 'slow news day'.

Fark - seems like you really got some strong feelings about 'Rugby Fu' LOL!

And I guess we know where you stand on 'nascar and foo-ball", eh Bubba?

[Kansuke]

Fark - seems like you really got some strong feelings about 'Rugby Fu' LOL!

And I guess we know where you stand on 'nascar and foo-ball", eh Bubba?



Really? What are those "strong feelings"? And where do I stand on Nascar and football?

[Kansuke]

You have demonstrated you don't know sh1t long ago, in this and many other areas.


How in this, and in what other areas?

[Frost]

Jesus some guys will argue about anything, you won't see many expert double legs in rugby, nor will you in American football, you will see hard tackles in both sports and guys getting injured all the time, can;t we all now get along :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, maybe in Canada, but Aussie rugby players are all gentlemen, who don't cheat, don't drink, and don't associate with women of low moral fibre.

Ever go to the HK Sevens? Canada and the US send teams....:p

I played rugby in Europe, I was an exchange student in London for 2 months.
:D
Aussie rules is a whole different beast !

[David Jamieson]

Well, maybe in Canada, but Aussie rugby players are all gentlemen, who don't cheat, don't drink, and don't associate with women of low moral fibre.

Ever go to the HK Sevens? Canada and the US send teams....:p

wow, just wow, and here I thought for sure you weren't a filthy liar.


:D

[Frost]

I played rugby in Europe, I was an exchange student in London for 2 months.
:D
Aussie rules is a whole different beast !

Is Aussie rules even a sport:eek:

i just thought it was a bunch of rather large lads who wanted to get into a fight in a public placeand some fool put a ball down and some posts where they were meant to be meeting?:D

[Yum Cha]

Is Aussie rules even a sport:eek:

i just thought it was a bunch of rather large lads who wanted to get into a fight in a public placeand some fool put a ball down and some posts where they were meant to be meeting?:D

Aussie Rules? Ha, bunch of big girls chasing a chook around the paddock....

[Yum Cha]

wow, just wow, and here I thought for sure you weren't a filthy liar.


:D

Filthy??? Gimme a break, grubby, maybe, filthy, no way!

[MasterKiller]

http://i.imgur.com/uLizv.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Eagle claw kung fu for the win !!

[Boston Bagua]

Why would I want anyone to take me to the ground?

I would try and use their momentum to spin them around and throw them off to the side. I have worked this a bit.

Though I would much rather take out my CRKT Folding Hissatu knives and cut the dumb a s s .

Why would any of you not want to end the real fight as quickly as possible?

use a weapon and make them pay.

[David Jamieson]

Why would I want anyone to take me to the ground?

I would try and use their momentum to spin them around and throw them off to the side. I have worked this a bit.

Though I would much rather take out my CRKT Folding Hissatu knives and cut the dumb a s s .

Why would any of you not want to end the real fight as quickly as possible?

use a weapon and make them pay.

don't really want to stab a guy to death for tackling me after i pinch his girlfriends bum.

so, i lose an ma point and gain a morality point and lose only a 1/4 of it for teh bum pinch but regain it all back for not stabbing the guy to death.

sometimes, we deserve a punch on the lip. :)

[goju]

im clumsy with knifes i always cut myself instead:D:eek:

[David Jamieson]

im clumsy with knifes i always cut myself instead:D:eek:

Maybe you should study some kungfu or something and learn how to use em. :)

[Lucas]

one blade comfortability practice ive always done is to flip a sharp knife (at least a couple feet or more into the air with a few spins) and catch it by the blade without cutting yourself consistantly. even better if you can let the point land directly into your palm without piercing the skin, yet gain control right away. just for being comfortable with handling something very sharp. also practice quick drawing it. keep it in the same place, and get good at getting it out in a second. lie on the ground in differint positions and do that, have a friend sit on you and do that, practice drawing it with your opposite hand. lots of fun stuff like that. you need to be really good at getting it into play if you want to rely on it at all.

i carry a CRKT also, m-16 model. fast, locking, and sharp as hell.

personally i dont have a moral issue with pulling a blade, under the right circumstances. such as i am being assaulted and am in fear for my safety. i dont start **** but ill finish it. much of the time though you can see that i have a blade on me, i dont hide it, i clip it in my jeans change pocket. im not profecient on the ground, if someone takes me down im looking at getting a joint broken, getting choked out, possibly strangled to death. Im not going to let some one possibly kill me if i can help it. dont start **** with me and i wont have to stab you. :D

[Yum Cha]

Buck folding Hunter - the knife that made Charles Manson famous.

Loop of chain just looped behind the blade point. Opens on the draw with an almighty WHACK.

Certainly gets your attention...

I have to admit, I like these new knives where you can put your finger through the holes in the handle, that have the non-slip design and flanges on the end of the handle, whatever those hilt elements are called.

I don't like the Hunter because your hand can slip up over the blade if you stab something hard. This is such a common occurrence in knife fights that it leads to the ID of the attacker due to blood evidence, and corresponding wounds on the suspect on a regular basis.

Good tactical knives need to be non slip, and protect your hands from blades slipping up the blade.

Then again, I'm kind of over the fantasy of drawing that knife in battle. Being that I don't carry it.

[Kansuke]

don't really want to stab a guy to death for tackling me after i pinch his girlfriends bum.

so, i lose an ma point and gain a morality point and lose only a 1/4 of it for teh bum pinch but regain it all back for not stabbing the guy to death.

sometimes, we deserve a punch on the lip. :)


Good points.

[Phil Redmond]

http://i.imgur.com/uLizv.jpg
I'm an amateur ornithologist. :o Where did you get that image of the Eagle attacking and what's the story behind the image?

[goju]

**** i thought the eagle pic was a real good chop feel sorry for that guy

merry christmas everybody:D

[B.Tunks]

Aussie Rules? Ha, bunch of big girls chasing a chook around the paddock....

Oath. Complete girl's sport.

T

[Frost]

Why would I want anyone to take me to the ground?

I would try and use their momentum to spin them around and throw them off to the side. I have worked this a bit.

Though I would much rather take out my CRKT Folding Hissatu knives and cut the dumb a s s .

Why would any of you not want to end the real fight as quickly as possible?

use a weapon and make them pay.

why would i want to let anyone punch me in the face? why would i want to let anyone fight me why don't i just shank him for looking at me?

because you can get arrested for carrying and using a weapon especially if you are not in fear of your life, and because sometimes your opponent is on you so quickly pulling a blade is not an option.

can i ask who you have worked spinning people around becuase i have never seen this work with anyone hald decent

[Frost]

one blade comfortability practice ive always done is to flip a sharp knife (at least a couple feet or more into the air with a few spins) and catch it by the blade without cutting yourself consistantly. even better if you can let the point land directly into your palm without piercing the skin, yet gain control right away. just for being comfortable with handling something very sharp. also practice quick drawing it. keep it in the same place, and get good at getting it out in a second. lie on the ground in differint positions and do that, have a friend sit on you and do that, practice drawing it with your opposite hand. lots of fun stuff like that. you need to be really good at getting it into play if you want to rely on it at all.

i carry a CRKT also, m-16 model. fast, locking, and sharp as hell.

personally i dont have a moral issue with pulling a blade, under the right circumstances. such as i am being assaulted and am in fear for my safety. i dont start **** but ill finish it. much of the time though you can see that i have a blade on me, i dont hide it, i clip it in my jeans change pocket. im not profecient on the ground, if someone takes me down im looking at getting a joint broken, getting choked out, possibly strangled to death. Im not going to let some one possibly kill me if i can help it. dont start **** with me and i wont have to stab you. :D


thats fine as long as you have actually worked ground knife work against someone tieing your arms up, hitting you and pulling his own weapon, if you have not its a bit like argueing i would just stab someone if he was trying to punch r kick me so why should i bother learning martial arts at all? Sounds great but can you actually do it?

[Yum Cha]

Yea Frost, the eternal problem. You got a gun or blade, you have the advantage, and you're probably OK. Unless of course, you get beat. Then instead of getting an aSS kicking you get stabbed or shot.

I like weapons other people can't or don't think of using.

[Merryprankster]

Good post with one exception. You can defend a shot without sprawling.

No argument. But it's all same same to me. It's hard for me to think about these things as individual pieces like that. I use a buckback, which is sort of a sprawl and sort of not. Some guys stand them up with an underhook or two. Which ever.

But what all of them have in common is not letting the opponent getting your hips and legs sucked up.

Now, can we stop talking about knives and MA, and get back to the pretty wominz with beverages on their bodies?

[Frost]

Yea Frost, the eternal problem. You got a gun or blade, you have the advantage, and you're probably OK. Unless of course, you get beat. Then instead of getting an aSS kicking you get stabbed or shot.

I like weapons other people can't or don't think of using.

you want to carry and use a weapon fine thats your choice, but its no excuse not to learn an important aspect of fighting. what happnes if you lose you weapon, can'd deploy it or he has one, then you are f*cked. using a weapon as an excuse as to why you are not learning ground fighting is just being lazy.

and as you pointed out deplyong a weapon increases the stakes an aweful lot, bad news if you are on the lossing side

[Frost]

No argument. But it's all same same to me. It's hard for me to think about these things as individual pieces like that. I use a buckback, which is sort of a sprawl and sort of not. Some guys stand them up with an underhook or two. Which ever.

But what all of them have in common is not letting the opponent getting your hips and legs sucked up.

Now, can we stop talking about knives and MA, and get back to the pretty wominz with beverages on their bodies?

yep its all grappling and its all good, and i agree we need pictures of naked women and not silly arguements for the 90's