attention circle walkers

[uki]

i think those of us who practice the circle walking will fully appreciate this inspiring performance... amazing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZojnIfVSdQ&feature=related)

it seems a whole new dimension of practice has emerged - the goal of being able to walk the circle, with a ball on my head... now THAT would be some funky sh!t. :)

[uki]

it's inspirational to say the least... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg-SsuQ2oII&feature=related

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Imagine circle walking around an isolation...

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have seem circle walking, and no one will tell me what is achieced by it.

[uki]

circles, circles, circles... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i83sRWz1FVY&feature=related

[Chris-H]

That's pretty cool. I appreciate the fluidity in their movement.

[Boston Bagua]

I have seem circle walking, and no one will tell me what is achieced by it.

There is nothing to say about what it achieves.

Come visit me and I will SHOW you what it achieves.

[Hebrew Hammer]

These vids would be even more amazing and potentially deadly, if they had Umpa Loompas in them. :eek:

[dimethylsea]

I have seem circle walking, and no one will tell me what is achieced by it.

For starters it makes you good at circle walking.

That alone is priceless.

[uki]

For starters it makes you good at circle walking.

That alone is priceless.atleast we know where we are going...

[Lee Chiang Po]

There is nothing to say about what it achieves.

Come visit me and I will SHOW you what it achieves.

Boston is a long way to travel just to see someone walk in circes. I have asked this question before and pretty much got the same answers. So, nothing is achieved by walking in circles then. In that case, why bother?

LCP

[Scott R. Brown]

I have seem circle walking, and no one will tell me what is achieced by it.

What does walking in straight lines achieve?

[uki]

What does walking in straight lines achieve?you get further away from where you started walking??

[dimethylsea]

Boston is a long way to travel just to see someone walk in circes. I have asked this question before and pretty much got the same answers. So, nothing is achieved by walking in circles then. In that case, why bother?

LCP

Lee...
Alternately if you didn't want to go to Boston you could always go visit Dale's teacher Dr. Painter. I'm sure he or some of the senior students there would be able to show you what walking in circles is good for. They are in Texas like you.

Is centerline theory and angling off it a part of your martial arts practice? This is a serious question..
If you practice angling off the main vector of an opponent's movement then this clip by Kumar Frantzis might be edifying..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na5-yjetsIM

The stuff he is talking about is pretty much axiomatic for all bagua people (I don't know of any bagua people who would disagree with what he is saying).
Most things that the circle walk trains COULD be trained by practicing linear footwork. I spent alot of time with my first bagua teacher stepping up and down the floor. Jump step, full step. Pivot. Jump. Turn-around. Repeat ad nauseum.
But "burning in" the circular patterns of walking makes the feet reflexively circular in their motion.

Rootedness, balance, power in the step, alignment between the hips and the head while in motion.. all that stuff is trained in the circle walk. But if we didn't do it in circular patterns we wouldn't have all these things while moving in circular trajectories.

That's what I meant by "circle walking alot makes you better at circle walking".

[taai gihk yahn]

the "r3al truth™" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka4CS59XTzA&feature=related) rev3aled!

[Scott R. Brown]

you get further away from where you started walking??

And yet if you continued walking......you would still end up where you started once again!:)

[goju]

i dont know diddly squat about bagua i just like the style but i thought circle walking was some sort of qigong routine and used to practice structure correct?

[goju]

And yet if you continued walking......you would still end up where you started once again!:)

(marijuana joint falls out of mouth)

bro you just blew our minds:eek::D

[Chris-H]

i dont know diddly squat about bagua i just like the style but i thought circle walking was some sort of qigong routine and used to practice structure correct?

Yeah, that's a pretty decent generalization.
I see circle walking as a method of training mind/body integration. Just the practice of walking the circle itself, without the incorporation of palm changes is a good method of practicing good body alignment while in motion. It is also a good way to practice continuous transitional movement without breaking ones root.
There are several principles involved with proper body structure in Bagua and it can be quite the meditation practice trying to maintain all of these principles while in motion.

[uki]

i dont know diddly squat about bagua i just like the style but i thought circle walking was some sort of qigong routine and used to practice structure correct?circle walking is a form of qigong, then again, so are most exercises if one applies the right intention behind the movements and so forth.

And yet if you continued walking......you would still end up where you started once again!yet only if the path was linear on a sphere and the person had enough spacial skills to guide them, otherwise this statement is only partially correct.... if it were an another plane of existence that was not sphereical in nature, one would simply walk for eternity.



There are several principles involved with proper body structure in Bagua and it can be quite the meditation practice trying to maintain all of these principles while in motion.the same wisdom can be applied to all movements concievable in the mind. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

yet only if the path was linear on a sphere and the person had enough spacial skills to guide them, otherwise this statement is only partially correct.... if it were an another plane of existence that was not sphereical in nature, one would simply walk for eternity.

WE live on a sphere! LOL!!:)

Anything else is just immmmmmaaaaagggggiiiiiinnnnnaaaaaattttiiiioooonnnn nnn!!!!!

[kfson]

There is nothing to say about what it achieves.

Come visit me and I will SHOW you what it achieves.

I see you're associated with the Gompa. Dr Painter has near devine status here in the DFW area. Did you train in Arlington? What path did you take to Bagua, the traditional through Xing Yi?

[Boston Bagua]

I met Dr. Painter at a seminar in the late 1990's, and he handled me with ease.

I asked him to teach me what I did not know.

I have been with him ever since.

I have been certified to teach the first level of the Jiulong Baguazhang system, and I am working on becoming a shifu in the system.

I will also be learning the family Xing Yi Quan and Tai Ji Quan as well.

Baguazhang speaks to me on a level that the others do not.

I train in Arlington yearly as well as host Dr. Painter at workshops here in Boston and attend the annual Gathering of the Circle which is our week logn Jiulong Baguazhang camp.

[dimethylsea]

Dale,

Just out of curiosity what did you train before you found Dr. Painter? Might give some folks an idea of what you brought to the table that Dr. Painter "handled with ease".

[uki]

Might give some folks an idea of what you brought to the table that Dr. Painter "handled with ease".dales ****ing huge... that's what he means.

[dimethylsea]

dales ****ing huge... that's what he means.

Not to me. Dale is about the same size I am.

[Boston Bagua]

I had been training for over 20 years in Uechi Ryu as well as having been exposed to Judo, Aikido, South Mantis, an another Baguazhang system before I met Dr. Painter.

I am 6'2" and 285-300 depending on what I am eating and training.

Dr. Painter handled my external training and laid me on the ground with ease.

Hence my immediate response to ask him to train me.

[kfson]

I had been training for over 20 years in Uechi Ryu as well as having been exposed to Judo, Aikido, South Mantis, an another Baguazhang system before I met Dr. Painter.

I am 6'2" and 285-300 depending on what I am eating and training.

Dr. Painter handled my external training and laid me on the ground with ease.

Hence my immediate response to ask him to train me.

Thanks for sharing.

Do you find any similarities between Bagua and Aikido?

[uki]

Not to me. Dale is about the same size I am.you just have more hair. :D

[woliveri]

Our system (Wang Zhuangfei)/lineage is very different from Dale's system from what I can see on youtube but the importance of Circle walking remains on top of the training list (AFAIC). This practice develops the body in ways that other systems I've practiced (Northern Mantis, Tai Mantis, Taiji (Chen, Yang, Wu)) never came close to. You need to go have a taste, then perhaps you'll know.


Dale, you still planning to move to Florida?

[Boston Bagua]

I will be moving to Florida when I am finished with my masters program in acupuncture and herbal medicine.

I will be done in 2011 or early 2012.

Circle walking also helps develop Iron Body if done slowly and in a particular manner. Hence many Baguazhang people are known for being able to absorb abnormal amounts of abuse.

I do not practice Iron Vest much anymore as intense Baguazhang training will develop it as well.

[woliveri]

Cool, it will be good to see you down here.

In addition to what Dale just said (develop the iron body) our style develops what my teacher calls "Ba Zi", and area of the forearm near the wrist. This area, over time, becomes like steel and can be used to break the bones or seriously injure your opponent.

Interested in circle walking yet??

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread would be so different if it was titled, " Attention street walkers".

[Luk Hop]

.... Dr Painter has near devine status here in the DFW area.....

I have never studied with Dr. Painter and I am in no way trying to denounce his skills or teaching abilities as I am sure that these are some of the reasons why many proficient practitioners seek to and continue to study with him. However, I lived in the DFW are for nearly 20 years (having studied 10 of those 20 years) and I can attest that there are other Bagua teachers and practitioners in the area who are skilled as well. I believe that "devine status" is somewhat of an overstatement.

I guess that it all boils down to whom you know or whom you do not know.

[uki]

In addition to what Dale just said (develop the iron body) our style develops what my teacher calls "Ba Zi", and area of the forearm near the wrist. This area, over time, becomes like steel and can be used to break the bones or seriously injure your opponent.you should take up iron ball juggling.


This thread would be so different if it was titled, " Attention street walkers".not everyone sees a 2 dollar ***** like you. :p

[kfson]

I have never studied with Dr. Painter and I am in no way trying to denounce his skills or teaching abilities as I am sure that these are some of the reasons why many proficient practitioners seek to and continue to study with him. However, I lived in the DFW are for nearly 20 years (having studied 10 of those 20 years) and I can attest that there are other Bagua teachers and practitioners in the area who are skilled as well. I believe that "devine status" is somewhat of an overstatement.

I guess that it all boils down to whom you know or whom you do not know.

I have studied Xing I in the Plano area.
Can you recommend a few Bagua teachers. You can PM me if that is required.

[kfson]

I will be moving to Florida when I am finished with my masters program in acupuncture and herbal medicine.

I will be done in 2011 or early 2012.

Circle walking also helps develop Iron Body if done slowly and in a particular manner. Hence many Baguazhang people are known for being able to absorb abnormal amounts of abuse.

I do not practice Iron Vest much anymore as intense Baguazhang training will develop it as well.

Will Iron Body hinder the type of soft body movement required of Tai Chi?

[uki]

Will Iron Body hinder the type of soft body movement required of Tai Chi?yes... you will never be able to move gracefully and if you stop practicing you will begin to rust away into nothing. :rolleyes:

[kfson]

yes... you will never be able to move gracefully and if you stop practicing you will begin to rust away into nothing. :rolleyes:

I think I knew that before, but I must have forgotten. Thanks for reminding me!

[Boston Bagua]

Will Iron Body hinder the type of soft body movement required of Tai Chi?


Real Taiji is not soft nor is it hard, it is that middle path between the two.

You cannot pulse using Jing energy while being soft.

Iron Body does not affect any internal system but can only add to it.

[Boston Bagua]

I have never studied with Dr. Painter and I am in no way trying to denounce his skills or teaching abilities as I am sure that these are some of the reasons why many proficient practitioners seek to and continue to study with him. However, I lived in the DFW are for nearly 20 years (having studied 10 of those 20 years) and I can attest that there are other Bagua teachers and practitioners in the area who are skilled as well. I believe that "devine status" is somewhat of an overstatement.

I guess that it all boils down to whom you know or whom you do not know.

Not that it was meant to be like there are no other teachers.

Dr. Painter is well known by many.

My advice is to go see and participate in classes and see if you actually like the flavor of Baguazhang that is being taught by different people. find the one you like and learn it fully.

[kfson]

Real Taiji is not soft nor is it hard, it is that middle path between the two.

You cannot pulse using Jing energy while being soft.

Iron Body does not affect any internal system but can only add to it.

OK, I'll rephrase. The 3 major internal styles seems to each develop a different kind of physical body. Do you see this as the case?

[Boston Bagua]

not so much.

All 3 develop ways to use the entire body as a whole to create power, of course this is done through their styles flavor for lack of a better word.

I have been exposed to all 3 and like Baguazhang first, Xingyiquan second and Taijiquan third.

Using listening skills and softness are concepts of Taijiquan but hitting someone and causing damage is not soft, nor can it be soft.

[woliveri]

not so much.

All 3 develop ways to use the entire body as a whole to create power, of course this is done through their styles flavor for lack of a better word.




I agree with Dale here...

Have a look at my teacher:
http://www.youtube.com/user/BaguaBill#p/u/4/tvU-pfVH5TQ

Contrast with BKF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na5-yjetsIM

Different styles, different basics, different body development different theory, but all bagua.


I have been exposed to all 3 and like Baguazhang first, Xingyiquan second and Taijiquan third.


Also agree

[kfson]

I agree with Dale here...

Have a look at my teacher:
http://www.youtube.com/user/BaguaBill#p/u/4/tvU-pfVH5TQ



When someone is very good, they don't have to move, you see it in their presence.

[dimethylsea]

Have a look at my teacher:
http://www.youtube.com/user/BaguaBill#p/u/4/tvU-pfVH5TQ



Mr. Ming Qian Bo is showing some nice 摇 Yao movement in that clip. You can especially see it in his back and hips when he shows the move in mid-air and not actually on his student. Lots of practice to get that. Good clip!

[Luk Hop]

Not that it was meant to be like there are no other teachers.

Dr. Painter is well known by many.

My advice is to go see and participate in classes and see if you actually like the flavor of Baguazhang that is being taught by different people. find the one you like and learn it fully.


Mr. Dugas,

I believe that you are being somewhat presumptous. I did not know that the higher levels of Bagua included thought interpretation as well. I suppose that I will now need to double or even triple my efforts if I wish to obtain such a level of skill.

Thank you for the advice, but it has already been applied.

I did find what works for me, and I am in the process of learning it.


Best wishes.

[Boston Bagua]

Luk Hop,

a few questions.

What neijia system do you train in?

With who do you train this system?

How long have you trained in said Neijia system.

[uki]

All 3 develop ways to use the entire body as a whole to create power, of course this is done through their styles flavor for lack of a better word.
well said - all are complimentary to one another.

When someone is very good, they don't have to move, you see it in their presence.ain't that the truth... presence is everything. :)

[goju]

I will be moving to Florida when I am finished with my masters program in acupuncture and herbal medicine.

argh! why cant anyone good come and teach in colorado!
:D

[woliveri]

argh! why cant anyone good come and teach in colorado!
:D

Where are you at? My old Kung Fu brother is in Colorado. Has close to 30 years experience (if not more) in external (mantis) and internal (taiji/bagua).

[goju]

Where are you at? My old Kung Fu brother is in Colorado. Has close to 30 years experience (if not more) in external (mantis) and internal (taiji/bagua).

in wheatridge:D

let me guess this guys on the othe side of colorado huh?

[woliveri]

Nope, he's right in your area I believe.

I'll see if I can find his info. I don't believe he has a school right now but I'll see what I can find out.

His name is David Simeone

[goju]

Nope, he's right in your area I believe.

I'll see if I can find his info. I don't believe he has a school right now but I'll see what I can find out.

His name is David Simeone
really? cool thanks man

[woliveri]

Last I heard he was "house sitting" for the McAfee Mansion. Are you near there?

COLORADO SPRINGS, COLO -- A mansion once owned by John McAfee in Woodland Park ...........


Are you near Colorado Springs, or Woodland Park?

[goju]

Last I heard he was "house sitting" for the McAfee Mansion. Are you near there?

COLORADO SPRINGS, COLO -- A mansion once owned by John McAfee in Woodland Park ...........


Are you near Colorado Springs, or Woodland Park?

heck no i am a long way from there

[dimethylsea]

argh! why cant anyone good come and teach in colorado!
:D


Good lord man.. Colorado is full of good people! Marcus Brinkman was there for quite a while and taught alot of folks., plus there are all the Tang Shou Tao types. PM me your email and I will pass it along to a gungfu brother of mine who is in the Boulder area. He can probably point you better towards whatever you'd like to find, he knows alot of Taiji, Shuai Chiao and (of course) Bagua people.

Colorado is alot better than Tennessee for that.

[kfson]

Good lord man.. Colorado is full of good people! Marcus Brinkman was there for quite a while and taught alot of folks., plus there are all the Tang Shou Tao types. PM me your email and I will pass it along to a gungfu brother of mine who is in the Boulder area. He can probably point you better towards whatever you'd like to find, he knows alot of Taiji, Shuai Chiao and (of course) Bagua people.

Colorado is alot better than Tennessee for that.

I was looking in the Boulder area (my home town), it looked like the only Bagua school I could find had closed indefinately.

[dimethylsea]

I was looking in the Boulder area (my home town), it looked like the only Bagua school I could find had closed indefinately.

Yeah those are the YiZong folks.. but Marcus Brinkman had quite a few good students who later trained with Eric Luo. The following is just speculation.. but I would bet money the two guys who spearheaded/led that school are still training themselves. You can always talk to those cats about meeting up for lessons in the park or someone's backyard. IIRC those folks rented/borrowed matspace from the local Judo school (similar to my arrangement with a local JKD school). Chances are the economy tanked and they had to trim their personal budget. Which meant the expenditure of their MA rental space was probably on the chopping block first. A fellow has to feed his kids before spending money on gungfu.

If you really want the goods you don't let something like "our group is closed indefinitely" dissuade you. Find out who ran the group and track them down. Assume it was overhead, not the desire to teach that shelved the public operation, until they tell you differently.

When I first started training Glenn was renting the upstairs of a ballet school. Then after some months he moved the "class" to the park. I never saw more than 3 students in a class the whole time I trained with him. Didn't matter though. I wasn't driving to him because of his building. I was driving to him because I had a peak experience watching bagua and I had worn out two copies of a book reading and rereading. He had what I had to have, and I wanted it.

Don't take "on hiatus indefinitely" to mean "you can't train with us". The positive attitude is "hmm.. maybe the classes will be small, informal, and austere, out in the rough!". Keep at it!

[Chris-H]

kfson,
I am the class leader of the school that dimethylsea spoke of. My teacher Owen Schilling has been leading a Xingyi group in Boulder on Saturday mornings in Boulder. Both he and myself are available for private lessons in Baguazhang. You can PM me if you would like information on how to contact us.
We ended up shutting the school down due to some scheduling conflicts & a dip in class attendance. The group that meets on Saturday is primarily comprised of our core group of students from the school. It is a good group of folks that practice hard.

Best Regards,
Chris

[kfson]

Thanks guys for the info!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Lee...
Alternately if you didn't want to go to Boston you could always go visit Dale's teacher Dr. Painter. I'm sure he or some of the senior students there would be able to show you what walking in circles is good for. They are in Texas like you.

Is centerline theory and angling off it a part of your martial arts practice? This is a serious question..
If you practice angling off the main vector of an opponent's movement then this clip by Kumar Frantzis might be edifying..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na5-yjetsIM

The stuff he is talking about is pretty much axiomatic for all bagua people (I don't know of any bagua people who would disagree with what he is saying).
Most things that the circle walk trains COULD be trained by practicing linear footwork. I spent alot of time with my first bagua teacher stepping up and down the floor. Jump step, full step. Pivot. Jump. Turn-around. Repeat ad nauseum.
But "burning in" the circular patterns of walking makes the feet reflexively circular in their motion.

Rootedness, balance, power in the step, alignment between the hips and the head while in motion.. all that stuff is trained in the circle walk. But if we didn't do it in circular patterns we wouldn't have all these things while moving in circular trajectories.

That's what I meant by "circle walking alot makes you better at circle walking".

This makes sense. It is a training aid of sorts that helps incorperate ones footwork to technique? I know absolutely nothing of Bagua, so have absolutely no idea how that would work. If I did then it would make far more sense I think.
Thanks for the explanation. Most people tend to do one liners that make absolutely no sense at all. I wasn't really knocking it, but simply wanted to understand why one would walk in endless circles. I imagine that if someone were watching me over the fence while doing my own training forms it would bring up question marks.

LCP

[dimethylsea]

This makes sense. It is a training aid of sorts that helps incorperate ones footwork to technique? I know absolutely nothing of Bagua, so have absolutely no idea how that would work. If I did then it would make far more sense I think.
Thanks for the explanation. Most people tend to do one liners that make absolutely no sense at all. I wasn't really knocking it, but simply wanted to understand why one would walk in endless circles. I imagine that if someone were watching me over the fence while doing my own training forms it would bring up question marks.

LCP


LCP,
That's pretty much exactly it.
If you look at many kinds of gungfu they will train a static posture or stance as a foundation practice. Xingyi doing San Ti, or "holding Pi Quan" as they call it. When I first learned bagua I got the "8 basic stances" (bow, horse, kneeling, cat, one-leg, sweep, twisted, guard).
Bagua circle walking is pretty much a stance-holding practice (with most of those benefits) while moving the feet.
And then many kinds of gungfu will do "single movement" exercise. Doing lots of punches or arm movements. Taiji doing Cloud Hands is an example. Xingyi doing standing Beng Quan or any of the Five Elements. I'm sure other kinds of gungfu do similar things (I've seen videos) but I don't know enough about them to say anything. If you have a background in these other kinds of gungfu (I don't know your background sorry) you may be able to agree with this.
For bagua circle walking the "single movement" exercise equivalent is in the DIRECTION CHANGE. I.e. when the bagua person changes from clockwise to counterclockwise or vice versa. That change of direction is when the lead hand changes (from left lead to right lead or vice versa) and there is some sort of change of direction in which way the feet are moving.
Another thing about the direction change is that it involves kou bu and bai bu stepping usually. This is a hooking in (kou) or swinging out (bai) step. In fact the stepping around the circle is also kou bu and bai bu. These are the ways to attack with the feet.
This is a clip from He Jinbao, a very skillful teacher of Yin style bagua.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30heDQrSh5M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30heDQrSh5M)
Notice how he is circling into his student to throw him? It may look linear to someone who has never seen the circle walk (because the circle is so small), but in Mr. He's mind and body he is walking the circle.. just like he has done for countless hours of his gungfu practice.
It is true people walk the circle as meditation or to build qi.. but circle walking is for fighting. Indeed to the bagua person.. circle walking IS fighting. The second the fight starts.. you are moving the feet in circles.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I can understand that. I have black belts in Jap Jujitsu and it is also a circular system. You move in circles both body and in the application of techniques. I also do wing chun, which involves angles, but not direct circles. I do a particular foot work form or as some other call it, drills, where I walk in particular angles as I move about. Amounts to the same thing I guess. It tends to make your movements feel more natural to you.

LCP

[goju]

arent youa wing chun guy lee chang?

i believe on style of win chun called fut sao has circle walking from bagua in it as well:D

[dimethylsea]

I can understand that. I have black belts in Jap Jujitsu and it is also a circular system. You move in circles both body and in the application of techniques. I also do wing chun, which involves angles, but not direct circles. I do a particular foot work form or as some other call it, drills, where I walk in particular angles as I move about. Amounts to the same thing I guess. It tends to make your movements feel more natural to you.

LCP

Yep. Most good arts have circles in them. The ones that rely on sticking, contact and joint controls tend to have more. Bagua just tries to make circles it's specialty. And our way of doing that is to make everything circular "from the ground up" (i.e. by walking the circle).

[woliveri]

I can understand that. I have black belts in Jap Jujitsu and it is also a circular system. You move in circles both body and in the application of techniques. I also do wing chun, which involves angles, but not direct circles. I do a particular foot work form or as some other call it, drills, where I walk in particular angles as I move about. Amounts to the same thing I guess. It tends to make your movements feel more natural to you.

LCP

Sorry, I've learned some JJS, Kung Fu, Taiji, Qigong, Zhan Zhuang, and in my experience, there's nothing that has come close to Bagua yet.

Bagua builds the body, strengthens it in ways I have not seen in other arts. You are walking the circle, yes, but it's more than that. The arms are "twisting like wringing a dish rag" while extending them forward. Spine remains erect while scapula presses forward. Your waist is twisting like wringing a dish rag, legs are doing proper bai/kou and proper stepping, all this stuff and more combined while remaining relaxed. Dis krap is very demanding both mentally and physically and builds the body nicely. As the Chinese say, you have to eat bitter to taste sweet. Bagua training is very bitter. In Shanghai there are many, many Taiji players, less but still many Xingyi players, not so many Bagua players. It's demanding and few people want to continue with it.

My 2 cents.

[KTS]

woliveri - which branch of bagua do u work in?

really, when u get deep into either taiji or xingyi, you can flush out the same basic principals and exercises. some teachers may focus on certain aspects rather than others. but, having experience in all 3 of these arts, i have found many commons, and many parts that are stressed to different degrees.

for the most part, single palm change, is basically the verticle circle of pi quan on a horizontal circle. u know splitting palm can be done on more or less a horizontal circle in application at least. and single palm change can be done on a line as well.

really, all the "internal" arts have the same base, but what they specify in seems to create what we call as a "style."

[dimethylsea]

Sorry, I've learned some JJS, Kung Fu, Taiji, Qigong, Zhan Zhuang, and in my experience, there's nothing that has come close to Bagua yet. .


Actually bro LCP and I were just having a "sharing is caring" communication moment.

He wanted to know what good circle walking was.. and nobody else was willing to figure out how to explain it in terms he was familiar with.

;)

[woliveri]

woliveri - which branch of bagua do u work in?

really, when u get deep into either taiji or xingyi, you can flush out the same basic principals and exercises. some teachers may focus on certain aspects rather than others. but, having experience in all 3 of these arts, i have found many commons, and many parts that are stressed to different degrees.

for the most part, single palm change, is basically the verticle circle of pi quan on a horizontal circle. u know splitting palm can be done on more or less a horizontal circle in application at least. and single palm change can be done on a line as well.

really, all the "internal" arts have the same base, but what they specify in seems to create what we call as a "style."

Hi KTS, I am from the Wang ZhuangFei lineage out of Shanghai China.
Dong Haichuan, Yin Fu, Gong Baotian, Wang Zhuangfei. My teacher is Ming Qianbo who's teacher was a student of Wang Zhuangfei (don't have his name with me right now). Ming Qianbo also learned from Wang Hanzhi (Wang Zhuangfei's son) for a short period and others after Ming Shifu's teacher's untimely death from a construction accident.

While I agree with you that all three main internal arts carry the same or similar principles, I disagree that they are the same in training methodologies. A student might spend 10 years in Taiji (depending on style) to maybe, possibly, reach the level of training of 1 year of Bagua. At least from my perspective based on the Taiji I've studied and the Bagua I now practice. The practice of circle walking is just very demanding and I have not seen that level of training in the other arts.

Perhaps I haven't run into the right Taiji guys. Don't know but I've been through Yang, Chen, Wu, and Sun and haven't experienced near the intensity of Bagua. In fact, almost none of the Taiji classes I've been through even practice Zhan Zhuang which I consider a very core and essential practice to Taiji.

I haven't trained in Xingyi so can't comment on that so much, just to say my teacher learned Taiji and Xingyi before learning bagua and he has no problem expressing that bagua is by far the best he's come across.

Best,

[woliveri]

Actually bro LCP and I were just having a "sharing is caring" communication moment.

He wanted to know what good circle walking was.. and nobody else was willing to figure out how to explain it in terms he was familiar with.

;)

:) Sorry, I got off on a tangent. :eek::D:):):)

[KTS]

oh, nono, i know the training methods are different. i meant that many goals are common. and the basic principals that shape the actual training methods are generally the same.

all of the arts do stress a different strategy though. but fundamentally, all need t have commonalities like precise levels of balance, efficient structure, reduced tension in movements, etc.

i am by no means an expert i would have to say, but over the last 5+ years it seems that all of the "internal" arts share mechanical efficiency and so on.

but how that is used may differ, of course. xing yi which i am most versed in, will like to used slight changes of direction and acute angles while maintining a heavy(yet agile) immovable posture. bagua is more spherical as is taiji in relation to dealing with force and using it.