why qi doesnt surface when you do SLT?

[Hendrik]

The surface of Zhen Qi is a nature phenomenon. The reason Zhen Qi doesnt surface when one is practicing SLT is because

1, the physical body is tensing, physical tensing block the surface of Zhen Qi's grow and its circulation. the physical body needs to be in the state of using only enough effort that it is light and float and glide.

2, The breathing is too forceful. forceful breathing block and stagnated the surface of Zhen Qi's grow and its circulation. an unforceful breathing is similar to the nature breathing while one is almost getting into sleep--- calm, stable, and not noticeable and un-intended.

3, The mind is rigid and forceful. Rigid and forceful intention cause stagnation of Zhen Qi. The mind needs to be in a state of Knowing similar to while one putting one's food into one's mouth without hard focus or attention.




The proper way of doing SLT for holistic training is one must not use any effort at all in moving the body, breathing, and intending. One doesnt use effort because there is nothing to resist or to create. Just flow without using any effort to overcome resistance because one must not create resistance and then overcome it. Instead on needs to create no resistance and just flow with it.

Thus, again, SLT is not IRon Wire of Hung Gar or San Chin of White CRane. SLT practice must be effortless and the degree of effortless is the indicator of progress. it is not a dynamic tension training. SLT is a loose, quiet, nature training targeted towards developing flow within silence and acceptance or implement the Kuen Kuit " comes accept.... using silence to lead action."

the bottom line of SLT practice is to practice how to be loose in physical, quiet in mind, nature in physical action and breathing while doing SLT. There is where the kung fu build up. and that Quiet of mind later when get deeper, one enter the state of Silence.

Everytime on practice a SLT one is actually practice or implement the Kuen Kuit holisticly with action be it one knows or not. and that repeating practice is the cause of the transformation after a while.

However, if one never give up one's using of force. one will never get there. if one keeps using one's mind to Interpretate how things got to be according to one's mind, one will never get there. such as to know lower abdorment breathing is to lay on flat hard bed and let the breathing surface instead of keeping intepretate what is a lower abdoment breathing and forcing the lower abdorment to move according to one's intepretation which is totally off the marks and goes no where.




Thus, in the SLT Kuit from Yik Kam it says


旋迥自然順脈气. or Spining and retrograde naturely accord to the Qi medirians.

通關開竅有奇功. or its purpose is to open up path way and spatial within the physical body.

If the body, mind, and breathing are not place under the Loose, quiet, and nature, the path way and spatial will not surface or show up and thus the training will not get deepen.


These are honest words but due to not many know about it there is no way to train for it. Qi is not a belive, silence is not a holding a thought some way, SLT's design is not up for interpretation as one' s think. But to get to the nature and experience what is going on.

The whole body must not use more then an effort of lifting a silk thread, that is the requirement of doing SLT in the past.

some ask how to do Dissolve, instead of resist or withdraw? while if one practice one's SLT. then Dissolve is similar to let go the cloth or pant one is wearing and let it drop naturally, no rooting, just drop it and the incoming force dissolve. as it says " sung Kai" loose and open. while rooting is reacting.

However, if the joins and spatial is not open up how can one know what to let go and how it will drop?

[Ali. R]

I'm sure that is a over statement when done correctly chi will flow to the surface, everyone in my teacher’s class understands the training stance and know how to accomplish this, just simply open one’s feet a little wider (far as pigeon toed stance)…

I can ready relate to my stance and can become very relaxed even with I’m stepping, I been familiar with my stance for over 30 years and that is truly the key to this accomplishment or feat, the system that I train in is simply known as Leung Sheung's wing chun soft approach that is what my teacher was taught…

And if you go to California I’m sure Kenneth Chung and his top student’s such as Berry could show you the same… Along with my teacher and Eddie Chung who just lived 30 mim from my home, when I lived in Michigan…

Every time I perform SLT that way with smooth and correct breathing my palms become beet red and my body becomes warm with an electrical buzzing feeling and I do this in front of my class to help them understand breathing and movements…

It is hard to do but it can be done, it took me almost 18 years to do it on command…

I would love to make a clip to prove this point, but I know exactly what would happen if I do so…

Been there and done that, but if anyone would like to come and visit I could show them… Just get here and I’ll take care of the rest of your stay. No camera please…


Ali Rahim.

[Hendrik]

The bottom line is training to refine 1, loose in physical, 2, quiet and ease in mind/intention, 3 nature in breathing and movement/action.

one must not expect or intentional create anything beyond the 3 principle above. for that as what in general called " chasing sensation" which means does not follow the 3 principle of training.

This journey has no end but a continous of keep refining the 3 above with ease gradually. It is not a by passed of attaining power. It is not a by passed to get ahead. it is not a day dream/fantasy of become Bruce Lee without putting time in it.

In fact, just to have a decent lower abdorment breathing with loose, quiet, and nature principle, one might needs a few years. just to be able to handling the back one might needs a few years.

The 3 principle will expand one's kungfu and balance one's mind and body.

The core practice of TCMA IMA is Balance within dynamics.


So, the core is loose, quiet, nature. that is the process of the training and that is the ultimate one travel towards.

[t_niehoff]

To answer the question posed ("why doesn't qi surface when you do SLT)?": because qi doesn't exist.

[Ali. R]

To but it in layman’s terms, when dealing with the point’s that Hendrick just brought out, which are similar to the ideals that I was taught.

To accomplish this for a beginner in which might take you a lot less time them myself to accomplish; because when I searched for the answers I did it without my heart, therefore putting self the way limiting my expectations or out come…

1.
Learn to master your stance; in doing so the softer your upper extremities will become. Put time out daily about 10 mim a day to just work on your stance, when done correctly the tension will leave the body…

2.
When breathing only take in 65% – 75% lung in take this way your breathing won’t become stagnant, causing tension from the inside out.

3.
Focus on just two points or chi pockets; anything more would just confuse the beginner, the more one becomes relaxed the more chi pocket one could focus on sub-consciously the first is the anal sphincter muscle which should be timed and coordinated with your breathing… The muscle moves ever so slightly in when breathing in, but when breathing out move the muscle out just as smooth as it when in…

4.
When breathing in acknowledge the pineal and pituitary gland as it sub-consciously moves and feels as if it concaved alone with your breathing…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

To but it in layman’s terms, when dealing with the point’s that Hendrick just brought out, which are similar to the ideals that I was taught.

To accomplish this for a beginner in which might take you a lot less time then myself to accomplish; because when I searched for the answers I did it without my heart, therefore putting self the way limiting my expectations or out come…

1.
Learn to master your stance; in doing so the softer your upper extremities will become. Put time out daily about 10 mim a day to just work on your stance, when done correctly the tension will leave the body…

2.
When breathing only take in 65% – 75% lung in take this way your breathing won’t become stagnant, causing tension from the inside out.

3.
Focus on just two points or chi pockets; anything more would just confuse the beginner, the more one becomes relaxed the more chi pocket one could focus on sub-consciously the first is the anal sphincter muscle which should be timed and coordinated with your breathing… The muscle moves ever so slightly in when breathing in, but when breathing out move the muscle out just as smooth as it when in…

4.
When breathing in acknowledge the pineal and pituitary gland as it sub-consciously moves and feels as if it concaved alone with your breathing…


Ali Rahim.

[Hendrik]

Ali,

Great! Thanks for sharing!

any others like to share their way?

[Pob]

We're taught that there is no tension in Wing Chun until the point of contact of a strike. So SLT is going to be relaxed until energy on/energy off in the second and third parts.

I've seen vids of SLT by people doing it with forced breathing and having a lot of tension in their arms when going fuk sau to wu sau which doesn't make sense to me as tension in your fuk sau is going to reduce your sensitivity.

As SLT is supposed to be the basis for the whole system it is illogical to adopt "habits" that are counter to the nature of the exercise.

That's my tuppence worth.

[Steeeve]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ:rolleyes:

[Pob]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

You don't get to that footwork until Bil Jee form.

We're on about SLT here. It's an interesting point though. Care to elaborate?

[anerlich]

tension in your fuk sau is going to reduce your sensitivity.


Lack of some tension in your fook sau will leave you with no structure, and without that sensitivity will be of little value, except that getting hit may hurt more due to increased sensitivity.

The right amount of tension at the right times in your core, legs and hips is also essential for transmission of power.

SLT isn't qigong.

[Vajramusti]

Lack of some tension in your fook sau will leave you with no structure, and without that sensitivity will be of little value, except that getting hit may hurt more due to increased sensitivity.

The right amount of tension at the right times in your core, legs and hips is also essential for transmission of power.

SLT isn't qigong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stated well.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

The proper way of doing SLT for holistic training is one must not use any effort at all in moving the body, breathing, and intending. One doesnt use effort because there is nothing to resist or to create. Just flow without using any effort to overcome resistance because one must not create resistance and then overcome it. Instead on needs to create no resistance and just flow with it.

One interesting thing to discuss is the WHY of doing SLT for holistic training. While it is true that relaxation and lack of resistance in doing SLT, or for that matter doing a tai chi form cultivates peacefulness of mind, kind of like a standing meditation, and over many years people claim to cultivate chi, this really has no bearing on a martial art, and does nothing to develop martial skill.

People who claim to have developed a great deal of qi / chi also do not claim and have never substantially proven that this has ANYTHING to do with martial or fighting ability.

Now when you actually practice fighting instead of a meditative form of SLT, you can over time find that you are more able to relax with little resistance in the midst of sparring matches, breathe better, have little tension. You learn the right way to conserve energy in a fight. You learn proper facing and structure in a high contact moving environment, which also helps you relax.

On the other hand, if you never experience fighting and just do meditation, unfortunately what happens in a fighting scenario is that you are unfamiliar with it as you do not practice it, and you find that you have a great deal more tension in that particular scenario than is conducive to good fighting movement. People with this type of tension tend to gas quickly in a fighting scenario. You can have all the qi in the world but no oxygen, no movement, and no martial ability. Which is kind of not the point of studying a martial art.

I guess a corollary question to your initial one would be "why doesn't qi surface while you're getting punched?" And the answer is "who cares?" - learn to fight instead!

[kfson]

I guess a corollary question to your initial one would be "why doesn't qi surface while you're getting punched?" And the answer is "who cares?" - learn to fight instead!

There is qi, there is technique, and there is kung fu.

[Ali. R]

That’s correct, SLT is not chi kung, it is an application form and should be treated as such. But developing chi can happen in many different postures or structures, if one can truly relate to his stances and with the ideal of structural building concepts…

Many TCM use this concept (developing chi): Hsing Yi Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan, Hun Gar, and many, many more. The key to all of those arts in which I mention when studying to move chi (those systems and wing chun as well) is in the fact that one must have relaxed hips, legs and core (and use them as a whip), without relaxation balance in those areas, chi well never develop or cultivate…

Just as the arts that I mention above, they can develop chi from simply moving, and if they can do it; wing chun can as well (I was taught that are as only good as your stance) for many different reason, but most are lazy and can not spend the time and hard work that it takes to go that far, because of physical conditions, nervous condition work or family, but the number one reason is this, Laziest.

If one can’t master his stance and have weak legs and poor balance, and works his or her wing chun without structural building concepts (from a stance point of view) then they will become just a leaf in the wind without a strong foundation… When the stance falls (foundation) every thing falls behind it, including mentally…

Then forget about any chi development of any kind. When don’t correctly chi will move to the Laogong cavity (palm of the hand)…


Ali Rahim.

[donbdc]

To answer the question posed ("why doesn't qi surface when you do SLT)?": because qi doesn't exist.

I don't necessarily agree w/ you Terrence but I do like your style.
Have a good Christmas

Don Berry DC RKC

[Ali. R]

That’s correct, SLT is not chi kung, it is an application form and should be treated as such. But developing chi can happen in many different postures or structures, if one can truly relate to his stances and with the ideal of structural building concepts…

Many TCM use this concept (developing chi): Hsing Yi Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan, Hun Gar, and many, many more. The key to all of those arts in which I mention when studying to move chi (those systems and wing chun as well) is in the fact that one must have relaxed hips, legs and core (and use them as a whip), without relaxation balance in those areas, chi well never develop or cultivate…

Just as the arts that I mention above, they can develop chi from simply moving, and if they can do it; wing chun can as well (I was taught that are as only good as your stance) for many different reason, but most are lazy and can not spend the time and hard work that it takes to go that far, because of physical conditions, nervous condition work or family, but the number one reason is this, Laziest.

If one can’t master his stance and have weak legs and poor balance, and works his or her wing chun without structural building concepts (from a stance point of view) then they will become just a leaf in the wind without a strong foundation… When the stance falls (foundation) every thing falls behind it, including mentally…

Then forget about any chi development of any kind. When done correctly chi will move to the Laogong cavity (palm of the hand)…


Ali Rahim.

[kfson]

That’s correct, SLT is not chi kung, it is an application form and should be treated as such. But developing chi can happen in many different postures or structures, if one can truly relate to his stances and with the ideal of structural building concepts…

Many TCM use this concept (developing chi): Hsing Yi Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan, Hun Gar, and many, many more. The key to all of those arts in which I mention when studying to move chi (those systems and wing chun as well) is in the fact that one must have relaxed hips, legs and core (and use them as a whip), without relaxation balance in those areas, chi well never develop or cultivate…

Just as the arts that I mention above, they can develop chi from simply moving, and if they can do it; wing chun can as well (I was taught that are as only good as your stance) for many different reason, but most are lazy and can not spend the time and hard work that it takes to go that far, because of physical conditions, nervous condition work or family, but the number one reason is this, Laziest.

If one can’t master his stance and have weak legs and poor balance, and works his or her wing chun without structural building concepts (from a stance point of view) then they will become just a leaf in the wind without a strong foundation… When the stance falls (foundation) every thing falls behind it, including mentally…

Then forget about any chi development of any kind. When done correctly chi will move to the Laogong cavity (palm of the hand)…


Ali Rahim.

How does the substantial and insubstantial work in SLT? Compared to Hsing I and Bagua, the stance seems stationary.

[Ali. R]

The concept dealing with wing chun far as pushing chi to the palm of the hands compared to Hsing I and Bagua, and within the realm of substantial and insubstantial dealing with the ideal of being stationary, would point directly to the SLT itself (form point of view), usage of the upper extremities only…

If the concept of moving chi in a standing position as well in moving structures for developing chi, the stance play a very important role in all of this, because if one comes up out of his or her stance then the structure will be broken (upper extremities) and ones balance will be cut in half…

And without body unity the mind cannot be calm, but when one learns to make the feet follow the hand his breathing will follow accordingly, and by having a very strong stance your upper extremities will become very soft but firm in structural awareness…

Meaning the concept of chi can be develop in anything that you do that is based upon muscle memory and relaxation…


Ali Rahim.

[anerlich]

But developing chi can happen in many different postures or structures, if one can truly relate to his stances and with the ideal of structural building concepts…


I guess, but to use SLT for qigong is, to use Hendrik's words on another thread, like using a hammer to cut wire. There are better tools.


Hsing Yi Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan, Hun Gar, and many, many more. The key to all of those arts in which I mention when studying to move chi (those systems and wing chun as well) is in the fact that one must have relaxed hips, legs and core (and use them as a whip), without relaxation balance in those areas, chi well never develop or cultivate…

I spent a significant proportion of my life training in Xingyi. Xingyi is NOT a soft, relaxed style. It is internal (depending on your definitions), but NOT soft. It is hard as a fist of diamond. I'll give you relaxation BALANCE, as long as by that you mean a balance of tension and relaxation. Contrary to the apparent misconceptions of some, you can't have or develop one without the other.

[Ali. R]

I only said what I said, and I said nothing about being soft with in the dialog pertaining to your post or dealing with those systems, but I still enjoy your input.
:confused:

Take care,

Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Maybe I should make myself clear, the softness in which I was talking about as the comparison to wing chun is that any system can make itself relax enough to develop chi from an internal standpoint or understanding (and of course the stance), just from practicing their forms correctly and methodically. Some times a lot slower or even faster in some cases…

It’s all based on how well you know that art. And if it’s not apart of you and not deep within you, far as the internal concepts in which bought to the conclusion that the art itself is internal, and still find the physical development stressful. Then the metaphysical ideal is out of the question keeping chi development chi far on the back burner…


Ali Rahim.

[Fa Xing]

To answer the question posed ("why doesn't qi surface when you do SLT)?": because qi doesn't exist.

That seems like the best answer yet. :)

[kfson]

Maybe I should make myself clear, the softness in which I was talking about as the comparison to wing chun is that any system can make itself relax enough to develop chi from an internal standpoint or understanding (and of course the stance), just from practicing their forms correctly and methodically. Some times a lot slower or even faster in some cases…

It’s all based on how well you know that art. And if it’s not apart of you and not deep within you, far as the internal concepts in which bought to the conclusion that the art itself is internal, and still find the physical development stressful. Then the metaphysical ideal is out of the question keeping chi development chi far on the back burner…


Ali Rahim.

Please explain the "metaphysical ideal".

[Ali. R]

What is (substantial).

What is not (insubstantial).

Binding the mind, spirit, and physical realms.

Just like water, ice and steam, they may be three different formats of ideals but of the same manifestation (H2O).

Controlling and commanding the insubstantial…


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Qi exists as surely as the air you breathe.

Why it doesn't "surface" when doing SLT is another matter entirely, as few people have anything other than a vague second hand notion at best as to what Qi is in the first place.

Been down this road before on many previous threads...and don't see any point in saying anything more about the subject other than what was just said.

Now the Qi doubters and the Qi over-zealots can have the last word...:cool:


LOFL

[Ali. R]

:)


Ali Rahim.

[Wayfaring]

Qi exists as surely as the air you breathe.


You know one of the major problems with discussing qi is the fact that there is no exact scientific definition of it that is universally agreed upon. It is more of a "classical Chinese" phrase as opposed to the types of definitions you'd get from a modern Chinese university in technology areas.

So you deal with perceptions of it that range from it meaning "basic life force" all the way to the Yellow Bamboo perception of "developing chi blasts" that can knock someone over without touching them. And all ranges of definitions in between.

[Ultimatewingchun]

But you've hit it: it's the LIFE FORCE. The vital energy that activates your body and keeps it alive. And it must flow smoothly and evenly throughout your body for you to be healthy.

And through certain breathing, meditation, and movement it can be increased and stored....as well as being stored and refreshed by other more everyday types of endeavors: eating, sleeping, etc.

[Fa Xing]

But you've hit it: it's the LIFE FORCE. The vital energy that activates your body and keeps it alive. And it must flow smoothly and evenly throughout your body for you to be healthy.

And through certain breathing, meditation, and movement it can be increased and stored....as well as being stored and refreshed by other more everyday types of endeavors: eating, sleeping, etc.

But can you prove it?

[Ultimatewingchun]

The clearest proof is the efficacy of Chinese medicine (and other oriental approaches) that seek to unblock and restore the natural flow of chi when an illness or an injury occurs through acupuncture, acupressure, etc.

I'll tell you just one story about this amoungst many I could mention, and it happened to me back around 1993.

I suffered a broken rib during some sparring/drilling and was in pain for about 5-6 weeks (and still in pain) when my sifu, William Cheung, arrived in NYC for another one of his weekend seminars, followed by another week of private lessons, etc.

I went to see him the night before the seminar, and he started performing acupressure at various parts of my body other than my ribs, ie.- my feet, ankles, arms, face, etc. And gave me some Chinese herbs to drink in tea over the next 24 hours.

The pain in my ribs was completely gone within 48 hours, and never returned. I was completely back to normal.

That's enough proof for me. :)

[Ali. R]

The simplest test that I found was this; if one just slaps his or her own arm (top of the forearm) with a pretty good slap, one would generally feel a sting first but very much soon afterwards one would feel a light buzzing feeling in their arm, along with some heat as well…

That feeling after the slap (sting) is chi coming to the rescue of the maybe damaged area of the arm, done naturally and driven by the mind, just from the reaction of thought this power comes to life, and is totally detectable do to the relaxed nature of the body (arm)…


Ali Rahim.

[ZenMindT]

But can you prove it?

A living body is warm, a dead one is cold.