What is your criteria for determining skill?

[t_niehoff]

I hear people often say and so-and-so "has good WCK" or that he/she is "skillful". The question I always ask (even if it is just to myself) is: what is your basis for saying that?

I think for many people it is that the person in question can perform the classical forms and drills (chi sao, etc.) "well" and that they can talk theory. For me, that simply means one has acquired the classical curriculum of WCK (i.e., they know and are comfortable performing the WCK movements in an unrealistic environment). Sort of like if they can hit the heavy bag and focus mitts with good form -- that doesn't mean they are a good boxer, just that they have the tools.

I submit that to have "good WCK" or to be "skillful" really should mean that the person in question can use their WCK (use the movements they train to do) in fighting. And that your level of skill will correspond to the level of opponent that you can "hang" with (or defeat) using your WCK (those things you train to do). It's the same with boxers: how good a boxer you are is what you can do in the ring (and against whom). Without seeing a person really box in a ring, and without knowing the quality of their opponent, how can we say whether someone is a good boxer?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Skill is subjective.
Someone may have excellent Chi sao skills, but all that means is that he/she has excellent chi sao skills.

How well someone does something - their skill level in that thing.

[wtxs]

Does having video taped yourself opening an can of woopass on someone with fairies tattooed on their butts count?:D

[Lucas]

Does having video taped yourself opening an can of woopass on someone with fairies tattooed on their butts count?:D

depends on the ass wooping and if they had to fight for it at all. i can cut a dog in half with a sword but it doesnt make me a skillful swordsman.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Have you ever heard of a teaching method called "play practice?" In my experience, this is how to develop specific skill - with progressive mini games designed to teach "games sense" (enough understanding to play a game comfortably and competitively.) My ZRM class's "Live drills" are forms of play practice. Sparring is play practice. So is Chi Sao. So is Push hands, or anything with rules, really - although certain rulesets, such as MMA, are complex, official games which play practice develops towards.

Each play practice has its own rules, its own emphasis, and is merely an approximation of the real thing. Play practices within a well designed curriculum are ultimately designed to bring the student from the simplest form of a game to the final, most complex form.

In an MA curriculum based around play practice, the beginner student might start off with a really simple game, with really simple rules. Let's say they start with fixed step, open style push hands. According to Play Practice methodology, in this game there's no detail, no structure, nothing except the 3 rules of the game:
1. no hitting or kicking.
2. pushing and pulling are both allowed.
3. Your feet must stay fixed in place. If you take a step, you lose. If you make your partner take a step, you win.

This simple game is of course not fighting. It's just a game designed to introduce one aspect of combat game sense. An instructor should monitor the game, and provide suggestions on how to play better. For instance, if a student pulls off an effective strategy, the instructor can pause the game and bring everyone's attention to the strategy being used. Then everyone can play with that strategy.

Once it's obvious that a student is no longer learning how to play the game and is instead actually SKILLFULLY PLAYING the game, it's time to move on to a different game. In this instance, let's say that Game #2 is moving step push hands. Again, students are given simple rules to start:
1. No hitting or kicking.
2. Pushing, pulling, and stepping are allowed.
3. You must stay inside the ring. If you leave the ring, you lose. If you make your partner leave the ring, you win.

Once a student becomes comfortable with this ruleset and is seen to be competitively playing the game, it's time to move on again - Perhaps to Shuai Jiao, or perhaps to a basic striking or submission grappling game. As the games progress, the rules become more inclusive and closer to the final ruleset or game, until the student actually has the required game sense, experience and skill to play for real.

This is one way to develop skill and "train your zombie."

[wtxs]

Sorry about that "T", just couldn't help myself after had come across what you said in another thread about the tattoos.:o As the words which had made Flip Wilson famous - THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT! Oooh crap ... think my grays are showing ... got to find more dye.:D

[Phil Redmond]

It's the ability to effectively use your art against some one bent on crushing you, regardless of your lineage/style. If you can't fight you have no real Martial skills. PERIOD
Forms, chi sao, drills, theory, etc. have their place. But there are people who don't know any of these that can fight. The best way to train for an event is the event itself. If you don't fight/compete with people outside of you school comfort zone you'll never know if what you do works for for real.
(I was so tempted to use the Terencism "against resisting opponents") ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

This thread is basically attacking a straw man. Niehoff, I have to tell you, you have a very myopic view of martial arts. You must have had a horrible instructor and spent many years getting beaten up or afraid of it due to poor skills. There is really no explanation for constantly and unceasingly running the same tired arguments up a flagpole all day, every day.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My criteria for determining skill starts with someone's willingness to show what they can do.

That's first base.

I'm not interested in what they think (or say) second base, third base, etc. is all about until they've reached first base.

[Phil Redmond]

My criteria for determining skill starts with someone's willingness to show what they can do.

That's first base.

I'm not interested in what they think (or say) second base, third base, etc. is all about until they've reached first base.
I guess we won't be seeing anything from Terence then. He say's he's not good enough to post clips. :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

I guess we won't be seeing anything from Terence then. He say's he's not good enough to post clips. :rolleyes:

Yes, I don't think myself particularly highly skilled enough to warrant showing others how to do WCK. Moreoever, what does it matter if you can't watch a clip of me riding a bike -- that won't help you learn to ride a bike. You have to do it yourself. And that people don't realize this only tells me they aren't riding themselves. That's why I tell people to go train with good fighters, so they can see what I'm talking about. Until you do, you simply won't get it.

But what I find simply f##king amazing is the people who do believe they've got the goods and want to show the world. People like Victor and his clip on how to deal with a hook -- which became laughing stock on bullshido. I guess Phil and Victor feel that posting laughable clips is better than not posting at all.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes, I don't think myself particularly highly skilled enough to warrant showing others how to do WCK. Moreoever, what does it matter if you can't watch a clip of me riding a bike -- that won't help you learn to ride a bike. You have to do it yourself. And that people don't realize this only tells me they aren't riding themselves. That's why I tell people to go train with good fighters, so they can see what I'm talking about. Until you do, you simply won't get it.

But what I find simply f##king amazing is the people who do believe they've got the goods and want to show the world. People like Victor and his clip on how to deal with a hook -- which became laughing stock on bullshido. I guess Phil and Victor feel that posting laughable clips is better than not posting at all.

If you aren't very good then you need to stop pontificating to people about how to train, and start contributing in a more reasonable manner.

[t_niehoff]

If you aren't very good then you need to stop pontificating to people about how to train, and start contributing in a more reasonable manner.

You don't get it -- NONE of us are very good, including the "masters" and "grandmasters". Are any of you handling mid-level MMA fighters or solidly skilled MT fighters with your WCK? Of course not.

My point about training is to stop listening to people who can't fight particularly well tell us about training (which includes just about everyone in WCK) and to start listening to people who can and do fight very well about how to train. My views on training aren't based on my personal accomplishments (I'm not saying "follow me") but on the accomplishments of those that have developed solid fighting skills (listen to what the proven fighters, like MMA, MT, etc., say).

[goju]

Yes, I don't think myself particularly highly skilled enough to warrant showing others how to do WCK. Moreoever, what does it matter if you can't watch a clip of me riding a bike -- that won't help you learn to ride a bike. You have to do it yourself. And that people don't realize this only tells me they aren't riding themselves. That's why I tell people to go train with good fighters, so they can see what I'm talking about. Until you do, you simply won't get it.

But what I find simply f##king amazing is the people who do believe they've got the goods and want to show the world. People like Victor and his clip on how to deal with a hook -- which became laughing stock on bullshido. I guess Phil and Victor feel that posting laughable clips is better than not posting at all.

so we should listen to a guy who by his own admittance is not that good when it comes to how to practice martial arts?

makes perfect sense:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

so we should listen to a guy who by his own admittance is not that good when it comes to how to practice martial arts?

makes perfect sense:D

IF you actually listen to what T says you will see that he says to NOT pay attention to the "likes of him" but to learn and do for yourself with constant practice.
If you wanna listen to anyone., listen to those with valid and proven records and not here say or anecdotal "records".

[HumbleWCGuy]

You don't get it -- NONE of us are very good, including the "masters" and "grandmasters". Are any of you handling mid-level MMA fighters or solidly skilled MT fighters with your WCK? Of course not.

My point about training is to stop listening to people who can't fight particularly well tell us about training (which includes just about everyone in WCK) and to start listening to people who can and do fight very well about how to train. My views on training aren't based on my personal accomplishments (I'm not saying "follow me") but on the accomplishments of those that have developed solid fighting skills (listen to what the proven fighters, like MMA, MT, etc., say).

Yes, I am capable for my age and weight class. So are others. I was really good before having some major injuries that prevent me from running. I have won kickboxing tournaments and worked with local MMA fighters. I never felt outclassed.

Honestly dude, you come off like someone who just found a bit of religion and wants to convert everyone. There is lots of bad WCK out there, but even a person who knows bad WCK has something to offer on some level. You offer something on some level as well, but you offer up the same points at inappropriate times, overstate your case, and miss out on important points that people are trying to make.

Make your points about training when germane to the discussion but contribute directly to the discussion rather than poo pooing everything as dry land swimming. You have a lot to learn along with everyone else so empty your cup a bit huh?

[t_niehoff]

Yes, I am capable for my age and weight class. So are others. I was really good before having some major injuries that prevent me from running. I have won kickboxing tournaments and worked with local MMA fighters. I never felt outclassed.


It's great you've had that experience.



Honestly dude, you come off like someone who just found a bit of religion and wants to convert everyone.


I'm simply offering a different perspective than what is typically presented. Why is it my perspective is from "someone who found a bit of religion" when the typical nonsense is not? FWIW, my perspective isn't at all unusual with people who actually cross-train with good people.



There is lots of bad WCK out there,


Most of the WCK out there is bad.



but even a person who knows bad WCK has something to offer on some level.


I actually agree with you -- they do have something to offer ON SOME LEVEL. Problems arise, however, when we don't explicitly recognize what that level is.

Poor information, poor evidence, and poor thinking doesn't help anyone. In fact, in my view, people are doing more harm than good by offering those things. And if no one bothers to point them out, some - maybe those who aren't as experienced as yourself - may swallow it.



You offer something on some level as well, but you offer up the same points at inappropriate times, overstate your case, and miss out on important points that people are trying to make.

While you may find my views tiresome, I can tell you that I find the typical WCK person's views extremely tiresome (those important points you mention). I've been hearing the same nonsense for over 25 years. When will that stuff stop?



Make your points about training when germane to the discussion but contribute directly to the discussion rather than poo pooing everything as dry land swimming. You have a lot to learn along with everyone else so empty your cup a bit huh?


I know I have a lot to learn. That's one reason I enjoy training: it's a continual learning process.

I poo-poo many things because in my view they should be poo-poo'ed. Maybe you don't agree with me. Fine, then present evidence and reason to support your view. That's called intelligent discussion. And, btw, discussion doesn't mean we all need to get along or agree or even respect each others' views -- it means to informally debate. Personally, I'm happy if I can get a few people to question the status quo, the standard wisdom, etc.

[Ali. R]

Making my fighting skills more subtle, and trying to always keep my intent undetectable.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/steiner.htm


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Old Jong,

I was wondering if you could pm me on the changes you help me with in the past, lost that copy.

Could you please read this again for me, need your help?

Take your time my friend,:D


Ali Rahim.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I poo-poo many things because in my view they should be poo-poo'ed. Maybe you don't agree with me. Fine, then present evidence and reason to support your view. That's called intelligent discussion. And, btw, discussion doesn't mean we all need to get along or agree or even respect each others' views -- it means to informally debate. Personally, I'm happy if I can get a few people to question the status quo, the standard wisdom, etc.

My point is that you aren't interested in hearing evidence. You are just interested in rehashing the same vapid argument over and over unnecessarily. Being a former fighter and a trainer, I know that there is truth to what you are saying. However, a lot of the more esoteric topics on this forum are very useful, especially when it comes to teaching fighters. As you evolve as a fighter and an instructor, you will see that. You lack the perspective to put these things into context so you are far to critical of others.

In the ring or on the street, building a fighter and I mean fighter! requires a bit more than some Muay Thai-style training and BJJ. Those are good starts, but that ain't all. You have to provide them with understanding which involves philosophy, history, psychology, sociology, fight strategy, tape and book libraries (as technique resources and strategy development). In addition, a fighter must be prepared for the physical and emotional rigors of fighting which may include philosophy again, meditation, workout regimens, alternative medicine when appropriate.

I am not telling you to agree with everyone, I am simply suggesting that you try to exercise a little more perspective via emptying your cup a bit.

[goju]

oh i think his cups quite empty if ya know what i mean:D

[k gledhill]

ribbit ...the well is deep, for terence. ;)

[t_niehoff]

My point is that you aren't interested in hearing evidence. You are just interested in rehashing the same vapid argument over and over unnecessarily. Being a former fighter and a trainer, I know that there is truth to what you are saying. However, a lot of the more esoteric topics on this forum are very useful, especially when it comes to teaching fighters. As you evolve as a fighter and an instructor, you will see that. You lack the perspective to put these things into context so you are far to critical of others.


I think much of the so-called esoteric stuff in BS. My perspective is that there is a lot of BS in WCK (and TCMAs in general). That BS strives and grows because it isn't continually weeded out.

Now, I can't argue with evidence and reason, so if someone has good evidence and sound reason, they can present it. If not, then we know it is BS. What's wrong with that?



In the ring or on the street, building a fighter and I mean fighter! requires a bit more than some Muay Thai-style training and BJJ. Those are good starts, but that ain't all. You have to provide them with understanding which involves philosophy, history, psychology, sociology, fight strategy, tape and book libraries (as technique resources and strategy development). In addition, a fighter must be prepared for the physical and emotional rigors of fighting which may include philosophy again, meditation, workout regimens, alternative medicine when appropriate.


WCK and/or fighting is no different than any other athletic activity or sport. You don't need philosphy, meditation, sociology, history, etc. to train WCK. I'm not saying that these things shouldn't be discussed if you find them interesting. That's fine. But, they all need to be referenced back to the fighting since that is what we are training to do, right? What I don't want to hear is dungeons and dragons nonsense.



I am not telling you to agree with everyone, I am simply suggesting that you try to exercise a little more perspective via emptying your cup a bit.

I find the empty cup metaphor to be particularly inane (perhaps because of its pervasiveness). What persuades and convinces me is evidence and reason. You don't need an "empty cup", rather what we need are critical thinking skills so that we can evaluate what we do hear.

[grasshopper 2.0]

hmm..if Muhammad Ali taught you, and yet you never saw him fight, would you say he does not have skill?

the same can be said of INSERT YOUR FAVORITE MMA FIGHTER HERE...regardless of his true skill, if you have not seen it, he has no skill.

If I saw Yo-Yo Ma practice but never perform, would i then say he has no skill? regardless, of how good his practice may be?

Would you say John Stockton/Karl Malone of Utah Jazz has no basketball skills because he's never won a Championship?

[sihing]

I hear people often say and so-and-so "has good WCK" or that he/she is "skillful". The question I always ask (even if it is just to myself) is: what is your basis for saying that?

I think for many people it is that the person in question can perform the classical forms and drills (chi sao, etc.) "well" and that they can talk theory. For me, that simply means one has acquired the classical curriculum of WCK (i.e., they know and are comfortable performing the WCK movements in an unrealistic environment). Sort of like if they can hit the heavy bag and focus mitts with good form -- that doesn't mean they are a good boxer, just that they have the tools.

I submit that to have "good WCK" or to be "skillful" really should mean that the person in question can use their WCK (use the movements they train to do) in fighting. And that your level of skill will correspond to the level of opponent that you can "hang" with (or defeat) using your WCK (those things you train to do). It's the same with boxers: how good a boxer you are is what you can do in the ring (and against whom). Without seeing a person really box in a ring, and without knowing the quality of their opponent, how can we say whether someone is a good boxer?

This is all about application. To be good at something you have to do that something. Does WC skill = Fighting skill? No IMO. Like Sanjoro said, someone could have great skills in chi sau, but that is all, it doesn't mean they can fight. So the question is does WC training add value to combat effectiveness.

Alot of this comes down to understanding. The guy that is good at chi sau, does he understand what it is there for, or is he just getting good at one thing to satisfy his needs to be good at something. Now if he admits and realises the difference (I am really good at chi sau but this doesn't mean I can fight) I don't see anything wrong with that, he is aware.

If he isn't aware and doesn't see the difference then there is a problem there, same with one thinking they know the cirriculum of WC, can do the forms and drills perfect and can fight with it, without ever fighting with it, they may succeed against a certain skill level, but once that level increases they may be in for a surprise. Its all about being honestly aware with yourself and your needs and wants, regarding why you are training in a Martial Art.

James

[Wayfaring]

Alot of this comes down to understanding. The guy that is good at chi sau, does he understand what it is there for, or is he just getting good at one thing to satisfy his needs to be good at something. Now if he admits and realises the difference (I am really good at chi sau but this doesn't mean I can fight) I don't see anything wrong with that, he is aware.


A lot of this comes down to how people train, leading to wrong understanding. For example, if for every hour someone spent training chi sau they spent 2 hours full contact sparring, you wouldn't have this gap in understanding. But many times WC schools are shrines to elders, lineages, and traditions more than they are places to train to fight.