Bung Bo, Lan Jeet, and Baat Jow

[sultanpro]

Came across theese names for 3 PM forms, can some one give me the translation for the names in english? I know Bung Bo = crushing/stomping steps
but in not sure with the other 2, please help!

Also any site's that list's the forms in chinese and english?

thanks skard

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[grifter721]

Ask the "blad" guy in class he knows all the cantonese names of the forms.

[baji-fist]

I believe Lan Jeet I believe means Chopping and Blocking Form and Baat Jow I believe is 8 elbows.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[EARTH DRAGON]

the speeling is lan jie which means intercept

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[baji-fist]

I think Earthdragon's definition is more correct.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[BeiTangLang]

I wonder how many ways there are to spell Chinese words in our alphabet? I mean,..the Chinese do not have an Alphabet as we do, so can we really say that spellings are wrong? Or even more right? Cantonese & Mandarin vs. different spellings can make several versions correct. Lan seems to be stable, but Jai, Jei, Jie, Jae, Tschae, Jeet...
As long as we know what we are all talking about lets not worry about "speeling"...ah,..opps,..."spelling".
P.S.
As a side-note, notice that most papers as spelling Ossama or Osama while the F.B.I posters say Usama?? same deal....No correlating alphabet.
Best wishes to all & I fully concur with Earth-Dragons meaning of Lan Jie...I have no idea what the other one is.

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[Kiasyd]

About the spelling, there are some "official" romanizations, like the Pin Yi, or something like that, I don't konw the exact spelling... :p

-- Kiasyd

[BeiTangLang]

Here is a nice source of Pin Yin for reference.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/GenX_jt_mtjr/GenXChinese.html

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[EARTH DRAGON]

While it is true there is no correct way of spelling chinese in our english language the more I learn how to speak mandarin the more that things sound different when spelled with different letters but most words have been standardised by pin yi or wades/giles format.
kung fu (gungfu) tai chi (taiji) chi (qi) ba gau (pa kua) beijing (peking) some although they have the same pronuciation when spelled differently they have different throat sounds.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[BeiTangLang]

of the question rather than harras people over spelling. I won't pretend to understand how Bung Bo & Peng Pu are the same on any count,..but I do know that people sometimes writem that way & try to answer their questions regardless of spelling.
Anyway, Back to the question;
Like I said before, I agree with Earth Dragon on the intercepting meaning behind Lan Jay...hehehe..

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[Young Mantis]

I agree with BTL. I think it is quite difficult to say someone's romanization of Chinese terms is spelled incorrectly. I am Chinese and natively speak Cantonese. I have also studied Mandarin and I find that even amongst my Chinese friends, we all have different ways of writing the Chinese in English. Even with the standardized methods for Mandarin, doesn't it depend on which system you choose to use? Pinyin, Wade-Giles, etc.

As BTL points out, as long as we know what we are each referring to, it would be a pointless and never-ending job to "correct" other people's spellings.

Besides the original question by Skarbro uses the Cantonese pronunciations for all three forms and quite accurately I might add. Why is Lan Jeet the only form pointed out? Lan Jie would be the more accurate Mandarin pronunciation but then Peng Pu and Ba Zhou should have been offered as well.

Anyway, you can look at www.northernmantis.com (http://www.northernmantis.com) for a list of forms with the Chinese characters, Cantonese pronunciations, and the English translations. The Cantonese pronunciations were not done according to any standardized method but just what we thought would be an accurate way of sounding out the words.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

The following is the explanation of Beng Bu from the book TAICHI MANTIS PENG PU BOXING by Tse Wing Ming. The English translation is his.

" Today, the term, "peng pu," is popularly understood and written in Chinese kung fu texts as "thrusting out the foot." As such, "peng" means "to thrust" and "pu" means "foot." However, the original meaning of "peng pu" is that used in old mantis kung fu manuals - "to capture". Consistent with the original meaning, "peng" is defined as a motion entailing stamping hard on the ground with one foot while the other foot is sprung forward. The result is that the person is thrust forward quickly. The second half of the term, "pu", means to capture." Together, these two concepts form the basis for Wang Lang's "mantis preying on cicada" technique, ...."

Stay tuned for Wang Han Hsun's definition.
This definition is very good, but different from Wang Han Hsun's which is also very good.

[sultanpro]

Thanks Grifter i'll ask him.
Young mantis, thank you for the information
i checked the site, just what i was looking for
thanks again
skard

Its not what goes in a man that defile's him, its what comes out.

[Taijimantis]

Excellent!
The Character for "Peng" "bung" or "bong" (all spellings I could immediately think of) is translated (non martially)to be "earthquake" or "landslide". Add this to "foot" and you get the loos translation of "crushing step" perhaps, but your explanation was excellent. Far better than I have heard in a while :)

[Tainan Mantis]

The following is my translation from his book ELUCIDATION OF SECRETS OF PM from the chapter DOUBT ON NAMES EXPLAINED, Page 34.

"The 13th technique of the form "beng-bu" was originally called "beng-bu."

In "18 Elders" the 29th technique was originally called "dien-bu overturn-the-chariot."

In "cha-chuei" the 18th technique is called "hill-climbing-stance overturn-the-chariot."

The hand techniques of these three forms are the same only the footwork is different.

It doesn't matter if it is "dien-bu overturn-the-chariot" or "hill-climbing-stance overturn-the chariot", these hand techniques are all "overturn-the-chariot."

This being the case, why not give these hand techniques of the different stances the name "overturn-the-chariot"?

This is the reason I therefore changed the technique "beng-bu" into "ride-the-tiger overturn-the-chariot"...."

[Tainan Mantis]

From Huang Han Hsun's explanation of beng-bu it would infer that the form is so named because of this technique. Since the 2 man of this section appears to be so awesome I could even accept that Wang Lang called this form beng-bu because this particular technique had a special meaning for him.
But according to Taiji PM the form uses different characters with a totally different meaning. If Master Tse would share his ancient manuscript this might go a long way in explaining this name.

Furthermore, the technique that Huang Han Hsun mentions is not even in the Taiji PM beng-bu!

[mantis108]

Tainan Mantis,

Truely wonderful info.; however, I am kind of wondering if you are aware of the other stories behind the creation of Bung Bo?

story 1:

Josi Wong Long was very good friend of Master Lau of Shantung Eagle Claw. It is said that Bung Bo was created to commemerate this Master friend of his. It is believe that there are 3 major stylized flavours (as found in 7 stars PM also) in this form namely Mantis, White Ape (TongBei?), Eagle Claw. The long armed movements of TongBei are reminisent of Turning Chariot (the forms also), so I don't think I would dispute viewing those series of forms the Turning Chariot forms (tech.). But then, we would have to bear in mind this would be more from a 7 Stars tradition POV.

Story 2:

The Bung Bo form was created to re-enact the combat between Wong Long and the person who have beaten him before his "enlightenment". This "play" is of course after the mantis hands are added into the arsenal of Wong Long. I haven't seen the 7 star version of 2 Men Bung Bo, but I have practiced the Taiji Mantis version, which I believe is very close to a "classic" martial artists' open hand battle. Especially, the final road with the left right low sweeps and the right waist chop. I speculate this would be the move that took his nemesis down. The low sweeps and the waist chop (although very mantis like) weren't exactly unheard of at the time but strung them together and reinforcing the "kick" in the sweep in rapid firing fashion would have been quite groundbreaking (pun intented). I believe this 3 moves appear at the final road of Bung Bo because as the title suggest to crush the step (taking out the base of support; therefore, the balance).

Also of note is that, Taiji Mantis was said to be handed down by Hau Chi Yuen who met Wong Long during a meeting in a temple in Shantung where there was a "tournament" held for what appeared to be "exchange of martial knowledge". Master Hau was a Tai Tzu Men stylist; hence, there is more of a Tai Tzu flavor in Taiji Mantis. That we can see in a lot of the forms of Taiji Mantis. Although the structures of the forms remain pretty close to other Mantis style, the Tai Tzu flavor can clearly be found.

The above is my view only and does not represent, others who practice Taiji Praying Mantis' view other than my own. Thanks for sharing the quotes.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Tainan Mantis]

Thank you for those stories.
#1 I have never heard before.
#2 I think I have heard 2 times.
ALSO NOTE have never heard.

What is the oldest written source? I have heard some interesting stories, but if it is just word of mouth for 300 years it is hard to believe.
For example, every one talks about how he was inspried by an insect. There are several stories with variations. They can't all be true although some similar aspects seem to indicate a certain amount of fact. Problem is , the oldest written record I've seen is post WW2 from Huang Han Hsun.
I have some pre WW2 material from Lohan PM that makes no mention of that story.
Is there any way to somewhat verify?

I have heard a story from my teacher how Wang Lang was escaping the Manchurians and hid at the Taoist temple at lao Shan. To diguise him they threw hot oil on his face to disfigure him.
As far as I know this has never been written down, so to me it is just a myth.
Your first story sounds like it is based on fact the way you wrote it where did you read it?

[mantis108]

I hear you on the unreliability of the oral teaching. But the same is also true about the written ones. History is after all written, in certain cases, through the eyes of the story teller.

The first story was found in the material which late Sifu Eric Ishii complied. It was regarding the different versions on the 18 styles (the poem) that made up the "original" Mantis style. It appears to be provided by one of the late Sifu Ishii's personal contact. I didn't have the time to inquire about the material due to Eric was taken ill. I am in contact with one of his close Kung Fu brother. I think I could verify the source with that brother.

The story about Wong Long escaping the Manchurians was found in Golden Dragon Martial Arts Magazine (I think?), which is now out of print. I believe Sihing French has posted that material here in this forum somewhere. I will see if I can dig it up. What is interesting about that story is that it provided some plausible answers to a few interesting questions (providing that story is believed to be true!) For instance, the general range of activity of Wong Long would be between Shantung and Henan (Shaolin Temple) provinces. The birthplace of Mantis style (the Cicada incident) is highly likely to be within the vacinity of Mt. Dai Chak in the Shantung province. The system eventually was taught in the temple on the Lao Shan where Wong Long enjoyed his retirement years. It would be there that the 7 Stars line was originated whereas the Plum flower line would be originated somewhere around the Mt Dai Chak which was Wong Long operation base during his active duty years (he was said to have showcased Mantis style as knowledge exchange within this area). This would also explain why there are fewer number of forms in the Plum Flower line than that of the 7 Star line. It would be a matter of having more time to develop the forms in his retirement years. Again I understand we can't possibly relie on one source but this version seem to have provided the best possible framework to consolidate a few stories that came out of different branches of Mantis. Just a few more thoughts.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[MonkSanTe]

A little off subject,but I was taught that Luanjie means "chaotically connected". Could it be the spelling difference (luanjie, as opposed to lan jie)? Has anyone else ever heard this? Just wondering, thanks.

Every Bent Knee Too Shall Break

[mantis108]

Greetings and welcome aboard MonkSanTe.

There are 3 popular versions of Lan Jeet (among others?).

1) 7*PM Grandmaster Law Gown Yuk (sp?) taught his version in Ching Wu.

2) MeiFah PM (?) Grandmaster Lee Kwan Shan taught his version in Taiwan

3) Taiji PM Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai taught his version in Hong Kong.

Both 7* and Taiji use the same name (in some materials the second word Jie is again different!)although the forms look pretty different. It is translated as interception as in above mentioned.

The one GM Lee taught is the Luanjie, which means "chaotically connected", is however similar in structure to the Lan jie (Lan Jeet) in Taiji PM but the names are different. The meaning and intend in the forms are then different although structure wise they are similar. It is kind of complicated to explain but I am sure those who have studied PM style(s) for awhile know what I mean. Sorry couldn't offer much help.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[MonkSanTe]

Thanks for the welcome and the answer, Mantis108.

Every Bent Knee Too Shall Break

[mantis108]

Hi MonkSanTe,

No problem. :)

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa