Martial Immune System vs. Workable Technique

[dimethylsea]

One thing that's become more apparent to me as time goes on is how I've subconsciously brought habits from different teachers I've had onto my own mat. They've effected my teaching style and I'd like to share a bit about it and see if other's experiences are different or similar.

My first teacher was very traditional. There was very little explanation in terms of usage. Also no real long forms.. just oodles and oodles of jibengong. Repetitive stepping drills, palm strikes etc. Perhaps one might get a very minimal low-force demonstration once or twice.. but systematic exposition of usage was not his thing. He wanted you to practice. Alot.

My second major teacher taught me FMA.. but he had a substantial background in Chinese arts and while all I officially learned FMA from him.. he knew I was there for the lumps and was continually dropping in "oh and btw.. watch out for THIS.. we (his CMA style) LOVE doing this".

Since then I've studied with alot of different folks.. the MMA/sport folks are nothing BUT usage for the most part.

When I started teaching it was in an MMA gym. My first students were guys cross-training from Thai boxing. So I "coached" them like they expected to be "coached".. lots and lots of application. Easy enough to do when teaching arnis.

As time goes on I'm basically teaching kuntao-bagua with a seasoning of kali and people start asking questions like "I can't DO that kind of attack, I can't reproduce it.. why are you showing me that?".
To which I replied "it's less so you can reproduce it right away but so you are exposed to it and can start defending against it".

I'm a biologist by training.. so to me I tend to think of this as like an immune response. You need to present the (martial) body with (attack) antigens.. so it builds up your experience. Once you've seen and felt enough weird sh1t thrown at you, it's harder and harder to surprise you (assuming someone doesn't instantly KO you with a head kick or a right hook of course).

So what are your thoughts on "messing with" students.. should we be focused on making them reproduce techniques .. and so attack them with the material they are trying to actively reproduce..

Or should we be locking them up, tossing them with weird spiral throws on their posteriors, and stinging those nerve clusters in rapid-fire irrythmic beats... just to get them moving defensively.. even though they won't be able to reproduce that stuff for years maybe?

Thoughts?

[SPJ]

a teacher is only guiding or leading the student to the door/entrance.

whatever they do after that is entirely upto them

1.some are born fighters with instinct and all the attributes

2. some are "learned" and "tried" or trained to be fighters

3. some are just not fighters no matter what

shi fu ling jin men 师父领进门

xiu xing zai ge ren 修行在个人

:cool:

[uki]

i think one of the best course of practicing would be to expose a persons weakness and continually use it against them until they become aware of it and strengthen it. :)

[SPJ]

yes.

the general idea of attacking the opponent's weakness

but also take advantage of our strong points.

gong ren zhi duan 攻人之短

yang ji zhi chang 扬己之长

the students may work on their weak points

but also the students have to practice and learn how to use their strong points to the best.

[SPJ]

1. a monk may fish from the pond and feed the people in the village

or a monk may teach the villiagers how to farm and fish so that they feed themself.

2. we may spoon feed the students

but we may also give them guidances

3. each student has different physical attributes/talents and has different needs.

a big part of learning/effort has to come from the students.

[bawang]

northern systems is supposed to be easy to learn. if things get complicated there is prolly a problem.
the hardest part about northern longfist i learned wasnt the techniques, it was not getting knocked out while trying to do them. aparently almost all the techniques in northern kung fu is low success chance ,high risk on purpose so u grow big balls

i think if u wanna teach the chinese way u can try teach simple effective but high risk techniques
i dont think you should "mess" with your students and waste their time, they are paying you monehs so give them what they want

[uki]

northern systems is supposed to be easy to learn. if things get complicated there is prolly a problem.
the hardest part about northern longfist i learned wasnt the techniques, it was not getting knocked out while trying to do them. aparently almost all the techniques in northern kung fu is low success chance ,high risk on purpose so u grow big balls

i think if u wanna teach the chinese way u can try teach simple effective but high risk techniques
i dont think you should "mess" with your students and waste their time, they are paying you monehs so give them what they wanthow many brain cells did you kill posting this one?? go do something useful with yourself. :)

[kfson]

I'm a biologist by training.. so to me I tend to think of this as like an immune response. You need to present the (martial) body with (attack) antigens.. so it builds up your experience. Once you've seen and felt enough weird sh1t thrown at you, it's harder and harder to surprise you (assuming someone doesn't instantly KO you with a head kick or a right hook of course).



When little brother watches big brother play catch or hit the ball, little brother is learning.

Good approach in my opinion.

[TenTigers]

Sometimes, I introduce techniques and/or concepts that are too advanced for my students. I see it in their faces, and in their struggling.

In these cases, (and this is what I tell them as well)
"I am simply "planting seeds, which over time, as your understanding grows, will take root and blossom."

That's where many of those wonderful "Ah-Ha!" moments come from. One of the joys of studying Martial Arts.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Those "Aha!" moments are awesome to have and to see.

Within the "Qi" health model are two particular types of Qi called "Zheng Qi" or upright/adaptive Qi and "Xie Qi" or harmful/evil Qi.

Qi refers to the dynamic relationship between 2 relatively opposite aspects of a whole. In this case, the "whole" in question is health; here, "Qi" is therefore the sum of all possible changes in our state of health. "Zheng Qi" represents the health-maintaining and promoting side, while Xie Qi represents the health-compromising side.

Xie Qi and Zheng Qi are coupled in the sense that we only talk about Zheng Qi in relation to Xie Qi: when there is no threat of harm to health, we do not talk about Zheng Qi. Only when a "pathogen" attacks does Zheng Qi manifest. When it does, it must be strong enough to weather and defeat the pathogen and rebuild what's been damaged afterwards (like the immune and healing systems.)

Xie Qi represents any pathogen attacking a person's balance (yes, I'm being vague here on purpose.) In Chinese Medicine, Xie Qi is most often connected with external climactic influences such as wind, heat/summer heat, dryness, dampness, cold and their combinations. Xie Qi can however also come from other sources such as people and events, in the form of emotions, manipulation, rights violations, violent conflict and catastrophe.

Zheng Qi is further classified into two types: "Wei Qi" or Defensive Qi and "Ying Qi" or Constructive Qi. Basically, Zheng Qi is the wholistic sum of our defensive and healing ability against a particular pathogenic attack.

By practicing any movement arts, we are buildling some form of physical health, which in turn improves our Zheng Qi/immune-healing response against emotional, microscopic and climactic pathogens. Practicing real Martial arts has the added benefit of improving our "immune" response against "macroscopic pathogens." Martial arts, properly practiced, improves our defensive/adaptive abilities with regards to illness, people, wild animals and unexpected physical events. In "Qi" terms, we can say that good Martial Arts strengthens Zheng Qi very well. Some MA may strengthen the Wei Qi more, some may strengthen the Ying Qi more, but both are part of Zheng Qi.

[uki]

Those "Aha!" moments are awesome to have and to see.

Within the "Qi" health model are two particular types of Qi called "Zheng Qi" or upright/adaptive Qi and "Xie Qi" or harmful/evil Qi.

Qi refers to the dynamic relationship between 2 relatively opposite aspects of a whole. In this case, the "whole" in question is health; here, "Qi" is therefore the sum of all possible changes in our state of health. "Zheng Qi" represents the health-maintaining and promoting side, while Xie Qi represents the health-compromising side.

Xie Qi and Zheng Qi are coupled in the sense that we only talk about Zheng Qi in relation to Xie Qi: when there is no threat of harm to health, we do not talk about Zheng Qi. Only when a "pathogen" attacks does Zheng Qi manifest. When it does, it must be strong enough to weather and defeat the pathogen and rebuild what's been damaged afterwards (like the immune and healing systems.)

Xie Qi represents any pathogen attacking a person's balance (yes, I'm being vague here on purpose.) In Chinese Medicine, Xie Qi is most often connected with external climactic influences such as wind, heat/summer heat, dryness, dampness, cold and their combinations. Xie Qi can however also come from other sources such as people and events, in the form of emotions, manipulation, rights violations, violent conflict and catastrophe.

Zheng Qi is further classified into two types: "Wei Qi" or Defensive Qi and "Ying Qi" or Constructive Qi. Basically, Zheng Qi is the wholistic sum of our defensive and healing ability against a particular pathogenic attack.

By practicing any movement arts, we are buildling some form of physical health, which in turn improves our Zheng Qi/immune-healing response against emotional, microscopic and climactic pathogens. Practicing real Martial arts has the added benefit of improving our "immune" response against "macroscopic pathogens." Martial arts, properly practiced, improves our defensive/adaptive abilities with regards to illness, people, wild animals and unexpected physical events. In "Qi" terms, we can say that good Martial Arts strengthens Zheng Qi very well. Some MA may strengthen the Wei Qi more, some may strengthen the Ying Qi more, but both are part of Zheng Qi.nice to see ones own conceptual understanding put down in words by someone else... this is why bodhidharma has taught us that mind is the path. naturally we are all made up of energy, so an immune system is nothing more than an energy system... practicing martial arts improves your mind and gives you self confidence and dignity(amongst other qualities), these qualities are positive in nature, therefore they affect your physical body in a positive way... another interesting parallel between the martial artist and the immune system is to look at humanity as being the blood and individuals as being blood cells. keeping biology simple, red blood cells carry out the many(if not all) daily functions that keep the body working and in harmony as a whole, while white blood cells on the other hand have a more limited role of attacking invasive pathogens, white blood cells ARE the immune system and without googling precise numbers here, we all should know that red blood cells highly out-number white blood cells... as martial artists, regardless of style or background, we are like the white blood cells of the people... we have a sense of honor, integrity, and a general air of protectionism about us... how many on the boards here would honestly be apathetical if you are witnessing a violent crime or emergency taking place?? i would say that the vast majority of us would put ourselves in harms way to help another human being, much like white blood cells rushing to the front lines to keep the body free from harmful pathogens. it's all inter-related... we are what we train to become - nothing is seperate from the whole. :)

[dimethylsea]

Zheng Qi is further classified into two types: "Wei Qi" or Defensive Qi and "Ying Qi" or Constructive Qi. Basically, Zheng Qi is the wholistic sum of our defensive and healing ability against a particular pathogenic attack.

By practicing any movement arts, we are buildling some form of physical health, which in turn improves our Zheng Qi/immune-healing response against emotional, microscopic and climactic pathogens. Practicing real Martial arts has the added benefit of improving our "immune" response against "macroscopic pathogens." Martial arts, properly practiced, improves our defensive/adaptive abilities with regards to illness, people, wild animals and unexpected physical events. In "Qi" terms, we can say that good Martial Arts strengthens Zheng Qi very well. Some MA may strengthen the Wei Qi more, some may strengthen the Ying Qi more, but both are part of Zheng Qi.

This a very interesting post.

One thing that has confused my fellow coaches was my willingness to put time and energy into training people who are "poor material" from their point of view (i.e. people who lack athletic talent, a combative mindset and/or funds to pay). I never really thought much about it.. I was having fun showing them things.

I had to develop ways to verbally express to the less promising students what the art could do for them. I teach in the South. Talking about Qi to anyone but pagans or occultists wouldn't really be too productive, Christians here tend to be much more conservative than elsewhere.

Usually the way I tell the less athletic /damaged/ sick students goes like this..
"Bagua has three stages for learning..
Step 1: We make you hard to hurt. We try to build resilience, flexibility, balance, health. Whether you fall, or get hit or locked.. we will build you into someone who is healthy, who can move, who is hard to injure.
Step 2: We will teach you defense. How to block, how to run away, how to keep out the attack
Step 3: We will teach you how to attack, and how to destroy an opponent if you can get the drop on them"
Step 1 was just my way of telling them what Sifu Glenn called "building the kungfu body.. making the ch'i strong and full.. we must continue to practice, continue the changing".

Or put XiaoMeng's way.. building the Zheng Qi. Never thought of it in terms of building "macroscopic pathogen" response by the Wei Qi though.. but that's exactly what step 2 is.


Thank's for the perspective XiaoMeng. That's a neat net of ideas to chew on!

[Xiao3 Meng4]

One thing that has confused my fellow coaches was my willingness to put time and energy into training people who are "poor material" from their point of view (i.e. people who lack athletic talent, a combative mindset and/or funds to pay). I never really thought much about it.. I was having fun showing them things.


Your approach to coaching is the same as mine. The coaches you speak of, in my opinion, coach incorrectly and out of an expectation of vicarious success.



Usually the way I tell the less athletic /damaged/ sick students goes like this..
"Bagua has three stages for learning..
Step 1: We make you hard to hurt. We try to build resilience, flexibility, balance, health. Whether you fall, or get hit or locked.. we will build you into someone who is healthy, who can move, who is hard to injure.


This approach, as you say, improves Zheng Qi. At the beginning, it's usually done through the development of Zhen (true) Qi.

Using the above method of modeling Qi: Zhen Qi is your unthreatened functionality - your normal, healthy state. This healthy state can be refined through lifestyle and practice. Better quality Zhen Qi ultimately means better quality Zheng Qi.

Depending on how you train, this step can directly develop Wei Qi (through external iron body conditioning and exercise for instance) or Ying Qi (through stretching, posture, diet, relaxation etc.) Usually both are simply trained together under the concept of Zhen Qi, as at this level both are developed pretty much no matter what you do.



Step 2: We will teach you defense. How to block, how to run away, how to keep out the attack
Step 3: We will teach you how to attack, and how to destroy an opponent if you can get the drop on them"


Those two steps are more about training Zheng Qi proper. The Wei Qi in step 2 could be developed through live drilling (macroscopic pathogen defense) whilst the Ying Qi in step 3 could be developed through sparring (healing/resolution of attack.)



Thank's for the perspective XiaoMeng. That's a neat net of ideas to chew on!

No problem, sorry it took so long to reply.

Uki: I agree, MA should allow people to more effectively snap into action in an emergency. If humans are to be classed as red or white blood cells, though that would mean you're one or the other... as we all know, though, you're a mutant cell, doing double duty, as are most of the rest of us. :)