Good Traditional Kung Fu [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Lee Chiang Po

12-25-2009, 05:19 PM

LOL... this is called "fighting skills"??? looks pretty useless to me. :)

They are actually fighting skills. Not useless at all. Almost every technique involved here can be found in Jap Jujitsu. So it is pretty much exactly what is written above the video. With exception of BJJ, which is nothing more than a take off on Jap jujitsu. These skills can be used to break limbs, strangle a person, either to submit or to injure them or even kill them. Designed to over power power itself. I have 4 black belts in Jap Jujitsu. There are only like 60 different techniques, but I have up to a dozen variations of each one, making more than 600 moves total. Something to fit any situation or any sized fellow. Not only does Jujitsu have all these same moves, it has a multitude of strikes and kicks, using all the same pressure points of any other system. In most cases you can remain standing while applying takedowns and or disabling techniques.
Jujitsu is not my choice of self defense in most cases, but it has served me well during my lifetime. I highly recommend it. It is very good when you do not wish to injure or maim someone.

LCP

Eddie

12-25-2009, 06:17 PM

how do one get 4 black belts? 4 different styles of jj? Did you start at white belt with all 4 of them?

more importantly, do you wear all 4 at the same time, or do u have just one, VERY thick belt to indicate your rank?

dimethylsea

12-25-2009, 06:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVhGKEIcxE

An example of what I like to see and a Sifu doing what I aspire to in how I now train.

This isn't "traditional kungfu". It's good martial arts yes. But it's not traditional Chinese martial arts. It's BJJ and grappling. Nothing wrong with that. I like to train it myself. But it is what it is, and it's not what it's not.

And Uki... it's far from useless bro. You take that sort of grappling skill, mix in some Kino Mutai (biting and gouging skill) like Paul Vunak teaches (sortof like your "tiger" thing) and you have dynamite stuff.

dirtyrat

12-25-2009, 08:44 PM

[QUOTE=Eddie;979064]how do one get 4 black belts? 4 different styles of jj? Did you start at white belt with all 4 of them?/QUOTE]

I think he might mean 4th degree.

uki

12-26-2009, 12:46 AM

And Uki... it's far from useless bro. You take that sort of grappling skill, mix in some Kino Mutai (biting and gouging skill) like Paul Vunak teaches (sortof like your "tiger" thing) and you have dynamite stuff.i hear ya, but i like twisting thorns... in that clip i saw so many opportunities to mangle the other person. :)

Dragonzbane76

12-26-2009, 06:29 AM

LOL... this is called "fighting skills"??? looks pretty useless to me.

baited as usual. :) grappling as useless?, lol, have you ever actually done any grappling uki? besides the drunken brawl outside the trailer park with the police during the filming of COPS.

uki

12-26-2009, 08:10 AM

have you ever actually done any grappling uki? is this a trick question??

taai gihk yahn

12-26-2009, 08:18 AM

LOL... this is called "fighting skills"??? looks pretty useless to me. :)

bro, w/all due respect, it's good grappling skill; some of it is obviously compliant, and obviously it does not contain elements of striking or the sorts of things that you favor; that said, it is a solid foundation on top of which these things can be added, if such is one's desire, because the basic principles of positioning, leverage, timing, key points of control, etc. are all there;

I can understand the perspective that it looks "useless", but having myself spent even just a short time experiencing that particular environment, I can appreciate why it is a useful skill set to obtain, even if one is not inclined to roll on the ground;

uki

12-26-2009, 08:28 AM

bro, w/all due respect, it's good grappling skill; some of it is obviously compliant, and obviously it does not contain elements of striking or the sorts of things that you favor; that said, it is a solid foundation on top of which these things can be added, if such is one's desire, because the basic principles of positioning, leverage, timing, key points of control, etc. are all there;

I can understand the perspective that it looks "useless", but having myself spent even just a short time experiencing that particular environment, I can appreciate why it is a useful skill set to obtain, even if one is not inclined to roll on the ground;thank you for your input... perhaps i should clairify "useless", which is not being in the actual skill itself, but the fact that in these clips, it shows them that they work in a civilized enviroment... i believe it's a bit mis-leading. :)

dimethylsea

12-26-2009, 08:32 AM

i hear ya, but i like twisting thorns... in that clip i saw so many opportunities to mangle the other person. :)

Uki,
Are you familiar with BJJ's positional dominance theory?

I.e. the various mounts and so forth?

uki

12-26-2009, 08:34 AM

Uki,
Are you familiar with BJJ's positional dominance theory?

I.e. the various mounts and so forth?are you familiar with it doesn't matter if your face is torn off?? lose blood... lose life. :)

taai gihk yahn

12-26-2009, 09:07 AM

thank you for your input... perhaps i should clairify "useless", which is not being in the actual skill itself, but the fact that in these clips, it shows them that they work in a civilized enviroment... i believe it's a bit mis-leading. :)

it's not an inappropriate argument - there are various schools of thought (e.g. - Dog Brothers, and some other groups whose names I can't recall) that pose the need to recreate the conditions of combat as much as possible in order to give students experience dealing with adrenaline dump and all that (something that "sport" competition can create to a certain degree) - so they train as "live" under "pressure" as possible in order to condition that response; of course, some people have been provided the opportunity in life to have had that occur through their own experiences, and the knowledge that they can respond predictably under those situations can certainly be an edge over one who is untested in that regard; ultimately, as we see in the field of motor learning, input to output is not always a linear progression, and while in general, outcomes follow the law of regression to the mean, you will necessarily get outliers!

in general, it follows the age-old debate about context specific training, as well as the limits against which one comes up - certain things cannot be trained; e.g. - u really can't actually "practice" cutting or, I suppose, tearing into someone's flesh, despite being able to address various components in different ways (e.g. - blunt knife against resisting opponent; live blade against composite material mimicking human tissue); of course, in the "old days" one might have had frequent opportunity to do so in context of one's profession as a mercenary, soldier, etc.; now of course things are different;

anyway...

Lokhopkuen

12-26-2009, 09:08 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVhGKEIcxE

An example of what I like to see and a Sifu doing what I aspire to in how I now train.

This is not traditional kung fu LOL!

uki

12-26-2009, 10:22 AM

it's not an inappropriate argument everything can be the appropriate argument when viewed at the appropriate angle along with the appropriate perspective.

- there are various schools of thought (e.g. - Dog Brothers, and some other groups whose names I can't recall) that pose the need to recreate the conditions of combat as much as possible in order to give students experience dealing with adrenaline dump and all that (something that "sport" competition can create to a certain degree) - so they train as "live" under "pressure" as possible in order to condition that response;and the inflectional attributes of this would be??

of course, some people have been provided the opportunity in life to have had that occur through their own experiences, and the knowledge that they can respond predictably under those situations can certainly be an edge over one who is untested in that regard;which is precisely how martial arts becomes an "individual" expenditure of time and energy.

ultimately, as we see in the field of motor learning, input to output is not always a linear progression, and while in general, outcomes follow the law of regression to the mean, you will necessarily get outliers!and everything is subject to the the differential equation of it all. :)

in general, it follows the age-old debate about context specific training, as well as the limits against which one comes up - certain things cannot be trained; e.g. - u really can't actually "practice" cutting or, I suppose, tearing into someone's flesh, despite being able to address various components in different ways (e.g. - blunt knife against resisting opponent; live blade against composite material mimicking human tissue); of course, in the "old days" one might have had frequent opportunity to do so in context of one's profession as a mercenary, soldier, etc.; now of course things are different;yet it seems you are forgetting the underlying principle of "kung fu", which is time IN energy... you are what you train - if the focus(intent) is to develop the physical hand strength and mental mindset to tear flesh, reality will manifest and follow. this is what is defined as being case specific, as each individual is case specific... the best way to change individual behaviour is to present alternate forms of thought... anyone can win fight according to rules and regulations and win with highly skilled submissions, yet how many of them train with the INTENT of tearing flesh and mutilating exposed tissue?? the clear difference is the approach towards the result of training... some people train to be skillful at winning, others train to win. there is no denying skill in submissions, but submissions are for a civilized world, with some semblence of ethics and morals.

anyway...so ummmm... are you familiar with children showing their affection by kicking you in the shin?? my daughter loves me way too much. :D

dimethylsea

12-26-2009, 10:43 AM

are you familiar with it doesn't matter if your face is torn off?? lose blood... lose life. :)

Uki,
Since when have I been one of the people hating on you for throwing something new and different out?

When I ask a question it is NOT because I'm trying to "one up" someone or insult them.
I'm usually asking a question because something they have said clued me in that they may not understand something.
It's OFTEN the case that I'm trying to make sure they understand something that actually supports their argument or position if they'd only listen closely.

You say "are you familiar with - it doesn't matter if your face is torn off".
I am VERY familiar with the ripping and gouging techniques. One thing I like about having JKD friends is that we work setups for this stuff. I know you've got ridiculous grip strength from juggling those iron balls.

When I asked "Do you understand BJJ's positional theory?" I was asking an honest serious question. It's one that is fundamental to the way the JKD people approach Kino Mutai.

So let me ask you again, and please don't treat me like the enemy..
"What do you know about BJJ's positional theory?"

Dragonzbane76

12-26-2009, 01:05 PM

is this a trick question??

no trick just an honest question for you.

uki

12-26-2009, 02:35 PM

Uki,
Since when have I been one of the people hating on you for throwing something new and different out?

When I ask a question it is NOT because I'm trying to "one up" someone or insult them.
I'm usually asking a question because something they have said clued me in that they may not understand something.
It's OFTEN the case that I'm trying to make sure they understand something that actually supports their argument or position if they'd only listen closely.

You say "are you familiar with - it doesn't matter if your face is torn off".
I am VERY familiar with the ripping and gouging techniques. One thing I like about having JKD friends is that we work setups for this stuff. I know you've got ridiculous grip strength from juggling those iron balls.

When I asked "Do you understand BJJ's positional theory?" I was asking an honest serious question. It's one that is fundamental to the way the JKD people approach Kino Mutai.

So let me ask you again, and please don't treat me like the enemy..
"What do you know about BJJ's positional theory?"jesus... i felt like i just got scolded by the penguin... LOL... no... i am not aware of any bjj postional theory concepts - simply implying that i may understand WHAT you are talking about, just under a different heading.

and yes... i have done grappling before - the stand up to ground submission kind. :)

Dragonzbane76

12-26-2009, 03:17 PM

and yes... i have done grappling before - the stand up to ground submission kind.

gasp.... an honest answer from UKI what the fu(k is the world coming to... pigs are flying somewhere below. I agree uki that most times things are "labeled" under different terms.

so as for my question. I presume you tend to stand fight more than ground fight then, or do you play it by the 'what ever comes comes' outcome? just another honest question again. No attachments to it, just curious to your knowledge that's all. :)

dimethylsea

12-26-2009, 03:23 PM

jesus... i felt like i just got scolded by the penguin... LOL... no... i am not aware of any bjj postional theory concepts - simply implying that i may understand WHAT you are talking about, just under a different heading.

and yes... i have done grappling before - the stand up to ground submission kind. :)

I'll be your penguin. My sh&t runs Linux. Ubuntu all night long!
http://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/logos/penguins/happypenguin.jpg

Anyway.. the BJJ people have this thing called "positional theory". Basically they define their art in terms of who has what position with respect to the other guy. Then they try for a submission out of the best possible position.

The short version is (better positions higher on the list)

He's prone. You are on his back. (GREAT! TIGER STYLEZ!!!)
He's supine. You are on his stomach.
He's supine, You have one knee on his stomach
Side control (look it up)
Half-Guard (don't worry about this one)
Guard (don't worry about this one)
In Side Control (don't worry about this one)
He has side control.
You are supine. He has his knee on your stomach.
You are supine, He is mounted on your stomach.
You are prone, he is mounted on your back. (DEAD ANTELOPE STYLEZ!!!)

See how this forms a neat little diagram of all the ways crap can emerge when someone goes off their feet?

The nice thing is that BJJ teaches all this positional theory, and how to get from one position to the other.. but most people focus mainly on the submissions.

You don't like submissions, I don't like them either. But here is the neat thing.. just like the MMA types have taken this positional strategy and applied striking to it (ground and pound).. the JKD people have taken this positional strategy and applied biting and gouging to it.

It's alot like harimau silat that way. The BJJ insight is that all the technical ability in the world is almost useless without a good grasp of position and how to get there. But you can take the same lesson to heart also...

If you are dynamite with the clawing, gouging, biting and ripping.. then add in a grasp of positional theory.. it *ENABLES* your Kino Mutai or gnawing upon them like a hungry tiger.

It is really good to play with BJJ types.. cause it builds your positional ability. When I roll I almost never go for a sub, I practice transitions, escapes from subs, and mobility. Let someone else look for the armbar.. I want to figure out how to go from bad positions to good positions....

Tigers want to be on TOP don't they? They have an instinctive grasp of positional strategy (minus the crazy guards and what all).

Dragonzbane76

12-26-2009, 03:34 PM

It is really good to play with BJJ types.. cause it builds your positional ability. When I roll I almost never go for a sub, I practice transitions, escapes from subs, and mobility. Let someone else look for the armbar.. I want to figure out how to go from bad positions to good positions....

best way to learn BJJ or grappling in my opinion. work the subs later get your position to maximize leverage and get the movement down first.

honestly for the best movement on the ground a wrestling background is the best for maximized positioning on the ground IMO. A wrestler learns from day one not to go to the back, to maintain control, and use maximum leverage. These qualities, I find, are the best for ground game. The only thing i find wrestlers tend to need help on is leading into the shot and following through and finding themselves in a guiotene (spelling) or inverted choke for more specific. but as for a true BJJ you see them a lot of times going to there back. Wrestlers that learn BJJ tend to stick to there background of maintain dominate position on top. Which in my book is much better than taking back. but everyone has there own game when it comes to such things. :)

Kansuke

12-26-2009, 03:41 PM

honestly for the best movement on the ground a wrestling background is the best for maximized positioning on the ground IMO.

Wise words indeed.

dimethylsea

12-26-2009, 03:48 PM

best way to learn BJJ or grappling in my opinion. work the subs later get your position to maximize leverage and get the movement down first.

It is a good way to learn yes, and probably the best way for beginners at the ground game (I'm certainly no expert to say for sure, but the experts (BJJ BBs) preach this constantly. It's like a mantra "position before submission" to them).

I was sitting in the JKD guy's office the other day and we were watching Vunak clips. Vunak is talking about having the front mount and punching the guy vs. locking in with the face bite. He pointed out that if the guy upa's and sweeps to top while you punch.. your situation just deteriorated. But if you are biting his face and he sweeps.. you are still biting his face!

Cool insight... but you have to know enough about BJJ position theory for it to make sense or be usable.

And rolling for position is a good way to get that insight. Tiger cubs do this, They "roll" with each other under mother's watchful eye as soon as they can crawl to the teat.

uki

12-26-2009, 06:13 PM

gasp.... an honest answer from UKI what the fu(k is the world coming to... pigs are flying somewhere below. i do my best to be honest, so your comment is a little off base here. :p

I agree uki that most times things are "labeled" under different terms. the plague of our times... mis-communication.

so as for my question. I presume you tend to stand fight more than ground fight then, or do you play it by the 'what ever comes comes' outcome? just another honest question again. No attachments to it, just curious to your knowledge that's all. i am the backed into the corner stand up fighter... which means i do my best to avoid being backed into a corner, but when i am... to be honest, ground work comes naturally, i wrestled in junior high school. much like the feline's themselve, i have an uncanny knack of always being able to get on my feet, i find it highly doubtful that anyone would be able to keep me on the ground for any substancial period of time... just saying. :)

I'll be your penguin. My sh&t runs Linux. Ubuntu all night long!
http://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/logos/penguins/happypenguin.jpgi was referring to the penguin in the blues brothers. :D

See how this forms a neat little diagram of all the ways crap can emerge when someone goes off their feet?it seems i have already assimilated this concept into my understanding of the martial arts... yes.

Tigers want to be on TOP don't they? They have an instinctive grasp of positional strategy (minus the crazy guards and what all).we are quite tenacious to say the least. :D

bawang

12-26-2009, 07:17 PM

traditional kung fu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO6I5OZpRDI

uki

12-26-2009, 07:29 PM

traditional kung fu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO6I5OZpRDILOL... you truly need to catch up on the times. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_PfhV_Hns4

bawang

12-26-2009, 07:45 PM

uki

12-26-2009, 07:47 PM

i have a serious question
rockets and cannons have been in china for 1000 thousand years
why dont traditional chinese martial art schools teach them?i have too serious question... atomic weapons and airships have been around thousands of years before china became a nation... why china not teach this?? :p

bawang

12-26-2009, 08:13 PM

Because ,you are a aging construction worker who gets drunk and gets beat to the ground by police......... then brag about it on the internet ..... cydonia and pyramids of mars, niburu space aliens from india from outer space, juggling.
smiley face smiley face

i talk like u lolol

uki

12-26-2009, 08:14 PM

because you are a aging construction worker who gets drunk and gets beat to the ground by police then brag about it on the internetbetter than being a wannabe triad homie whose avatar looks like he just got a plunger stuck up his a$$. :)

bawang

12-26-2009, 08:18 PM

i never knocked up some fat broad and got stuck with 10 kids
then stay up at 3 am trolling the internet

you get routinely beaten to a bloody pulp. ur job is laying rocks on the ground. how is ur life better than mine?

speaking of triads, when i walked down toronto chinatown you look like one of the random hobos i saw in the morning with bloody faces because they owed someone their crack monehs. i saw one with red hair he looks like your twin but more healthy. he was fatter with more teeth

uki

12-26-2009, 08:28 PM

i never knocked up some fat broad and got stuck with 10 kids
then stay up at 3 am trolling the internetwa you say?? you have 10 fat wife's that roll on you at 3am when they wake up to use your internet connection??

you get routinely beaten to a bloody pulp.what don't kill you only makes you stronger.

ur job is laying rocks on the ground.that's right, rocks you probably can't even pick up.

how is ur life better than mine?where do i begin...

speaking of triads, when i walked down toronto chinatown you look like one of the random hobos i saw in the morning with bloody faces because they owed someone their crack monehs. i saw one with red hair he looks like your twin but more healthy.what was that?? the triads beat you like a red head because you owed them crack monehs?? :rolleyes:

he was fatter with more teethmore teeth than me?? funny... i have all four wisdom teeth and lost my last baby tooth a few years ago... try again homie. :)

bawang

12-26-2009, 08:30 PM

no proper come back

i win internet fight

uki

12-26-2009, 08:33 PM

no proper come back

i win internet fighti bet you trip over your own shoe laces.

bawang

12-26-2009, 08:35 PM

the secret is peppermint schnaps
60% alcohol

what prize do i win? can i borrow your wife?

uki

12-26-2009, 08:45 PM

can i borrow your wife?perhaps if i was married. :D

dimethylsea

12-26-2009, 09:05 PM

uki

12-26-2009, 09:12 PM

Also the two of you need to get a room!i don't play well with midgets. :D

Drake

12-26-2009, 11:47 PM

i have a serious question
rockets and cannons have been in china for 1000 thousand years
why dont traditional chinese martial art schools teach them?
has any civilian chinese martial arts ever taught ancient , not modern firearms? or bows and arrow?

does chinese civilian martial arts have anything to do with the chinese military at all? were they similar at all?

I don't know about China, but we drill weapons training all the time. Washer techniques to train trigger squeeze, box methods for acquiring targets, firing rates, fundamentals, advanced rifle marksmanship, lane drills, etc etc etc. Gets even more complicated once you get into into arty and armor.

Most people don't realize that if you aren't trained with a gun, odds are you won't hit anything you are shooting at. Better off using it as a club, really.

uki

12-27-2009, 06:08 AM

Most people don't realize that if you aren't trained with a gun, odds are you won't hit anything you are shooting at.that's the beauty of a 12 gauge semi auto with buckshot... just point and shoot, you'll hit something. :)

Drake

12-27-2009, 11:09 AM

that's the beauty of a 12 gauge semi auto with buckshot... just point and shoot, you'll hit something. :)

At point blank range, maybe. How do you think you'll do at 300m? Irritate, anger your opponent, maybe?

I just did some research, and apparently buckshot begins to lose efficiency, or at least shot group tightness, at around the 20 yard mark. Also, the problem with any long barrelled weapon when used, say, indoors, is the prospect of having your barrel grabbed by the enemy. I haven't seen this used in actual combat, but I have heard that it got a couple of people killed, plus I have seen it used during actual MOUT site training, where our OPFOR grabbed the barrel of an M4 as they were room clearing, and the other "insurgent" shot the person.

During OCS we were also taught to use the muzzle of the weapon as a spear, working as a very painful nonlethal method of subduing folks. I dunno about that, though...

punchdrunk

12-27-2009, 11:15 AM

I admire that the teacher in the clip actually spars and and his students spar with him.. but his traditional kung fu is questionable. His 2 forms he demos for Wing Chun (in other clips) are clearly influenced by 2 different and distinct lineages both of wich have made numerous books and videos for sale. I would have to be very suspicous that his Sifu was a VCR!!! Having said that he still might have good skills and even be a good teacher, just not one of traditional kung fu.

uki

12-27-2009, 02:49 PM

At point blank range, maybe. How do you think you'll do at 300m? Irritate, anger your opponent, maybe?well then my rifle skills will kick in. :)

I just did some research, and apparently buckshot begins to lose efficiency, or at least shot group tightness, at around the 20 yard mark. exactly... 00 buckshot is at .33 and 000 is at .36 - so you have either 9 .33 shot flying at you or you have 8 .36 shot flying at you... it doesn't matter about aim at this point.

Also, the problem with any long barrelled weapon when used, say, indoors, is the prospect of having your barrel grabbed by the enemy. woopie-****ing do, then i will headbutt their punk a$$ or something similar... don't toy with the subject here. :p

I haven't seen this used in actual combat, but I have heard that it got a couple of people killed, plus I have seen it used during actual MOUT site training, where our OPFOR grabbed the barrel of an M4 as they were room clearing, and the other "insurgent" shot the person.i dunno how this turned into storming rooms with sweepers and getting killed by insurgents...

During OCS we were also taught to use the muzzle of the weapon as a spear, working as a very painful nonlethal method of subduing folks. I dunno about that, though...stick em first with the barrel and then pull the trigger. :D

Kansuke

12-27-2009, 03:11 PM

woopie-****ing do, then i will headbutt their punk a$$ or something similar...

.... :rolleyes: Or maybe you could juggle at them.

dimethylsea

12-27-2009, 03:17 PM

At point blank range, maybe. How do you think you'll do at 300m? Irritate, anger your opponent, maybe?

I think it's worth mentioning that in a Western industrialized society virtually all firearms combat is at "point blank" or close range.. unless you are a professional of some kind (i.e. law enforcement, military or some sort of *heavy* criminal type).

That's one reason why rapid weapon access, weapon retention, and point-shooting/indexing are the top firearm priorities for civilians in the West. Sighted longer range fire and the sorts of things Drake is talking about are primarily for war or prep for same.

If you are a professional in an action profession.. obviously your priorities are going to be very different.

Personally if I need to kill a human at 300 m. something has gone horribly horribly wrong (some sort of bizarre revenge scenario perhaps?). In a self-defense scenario if I have 300 m of distance that qualifies as a win for the good guys (run away! run away!).

uki

12-27-2009, 03:18 PM

Or maybe you could juggle at them.well i certainly realize i can juggle your balls just fine. :)

dimethylsea

12-27-2009, 03:22 PM

.... :rolleyes: Or maybe you could juggle at them.

If you saw some crazed long-haired stoneworker/hippy type walking towards you juggling grenades.. wouldn't you run like f*ckall? I would...

Drake

12-27-2009, 05:17 PM

Why do I even bother engaging Uki in conversation. You deviated from every single point I made, and your responses were so completely irrelavant, it destroyed the topic.

I'm not talking a drop from 9 to 8 pellets. I'm talking maybe like 2, which will only irritate the attacker. You may even get an "ouch". As for rifle "skills", you are only reinforcing my point that one must be trained in firearm use in order to be effective.

The grabbing of the barrel, and room clearing incidents are to reinforce the point that long barrelled weapons become a hindrance in homes, as corners can neutralize the weapon.

This is all based on Bawang's mention that there should be a mention of firearms in martial arts, and that is absolutely true. You can't simply purchase a gun and expect it to do the work for you. There is a degree of proficiency that must be achieved in order for any firearm to be used effectively. Consider the price of missing, ESPECIALLY when in close quarters.

uki

12-28-2009, 03:44 AM

I think it's worth mentioning that in a Western industrialized society virtually all firearms combat is at "point blank" or close range.. unless you are a professional of some kind (i.e. law enforcement, military or some sort of *heavy* criminal type).drake somehow fails to see this...

That's one reason why rapid weapon access, weapon retention, and point-shooting/indexing are the top firearm priorities for civilians in the West.drake is not a civilian - this may explain his lack of civilian understanding on the matter.

Sighted longer range fire and the sorts of things Drake is talking about are primarily for war or prep for same.civilians are hunters too... drake somehow thinks that only those in the military are going to be a good shot. :rolleyes:

Personally if I need to kill a human at 300 m. something has gone horribly horribly wrong (some sort of bizarre revenge scenario perhaps?). In a self-defense scenario if I have 300 m of distance that qualifies as a win for the good guys (run away! run away!).i agree, snipers are pu$$ies - gutless, spineless, cowards... death from afar... how corny can you be?? LMAO!!!

Why do I even bother engaging Uki in conversation. You deviated from every single point I made, and your responses were so completely irrelavant, it destroyed the topic.only from your limited angles of perception perhaps...

I'm not talking a drop from 9 to 8 pellets. I'm talking maybe like 2, which will only irritate the attacker.hmmmm... i dunno what kind of pellets you are talking about here... does anyone else have a shotgun that shoots harmless buckshot pellets?? anyone??

You may even get an "ouch".you are amazing... let me shoot you with just one buckshot "pellet" and we'll see if you just say ouch.

As for rifle "skills", you are only reinforcing my point that one must be trained in firearm use in order to be effective.highly circumstancial to the type of firearm one is using. training handguns is different than let's say a .308 or a shotgun.

The grabbing of the barrel, and room clearing incidents are to reinforce the point that long barrelled weapons become a hindrance in homes, as corners can neutralize the weapon.this is where "martial arts" and "unarmed combat" come in, no?? and you can always saw off the shotgun barrel einstein.

This is all based on Bawang's mention that there should be a mention of firearms in martial arts, and that is absolutely true.LOL

You can't simply purchase a gun and expect it to do the work for you. at the price of guns these days, it had better work. :p

There is a degree of proficiency that must be achieved in order for any firearm to be used effectively. come on drake, this is america, most people were born shooting guns... heck i started when i was like 7 or something - it's like riding a bike, you really never lose the ability once you have it.

Consider the price of missing, ESPECIALLY when in close quarters.aim small, miss small... so what are all you army guys using in close quarters?? some kind of gun that we cannot get?? LOL... the army truly has warped your mind hasn't it??

Drake

12-28-2009, 12:09 PM

Grow up, Uki. You are embarassing yourself and whatever made up martial arts/juggling/insanity to which you subscribe. No wonder nobody comes here anymore.

uki

12-28-2009, 12:26 PM

Grow up, Uki. You are embarassing yourself and whatever made up martial arts/juggling/insanity to which you subscribe. ****... i must have touched and exposed nerve. i don't really believe that you can be all that you can be in the army - is that like false advertisement or something?? most kids join to put themselves thru school and get and education, but then they end up as cannon fodder in some accursed mountain range somewhere because americans are too pathetically apathetical to put a stop to all this nonsense being carried out by a bunch of goons in suits that have somehow duped the american population into thinking that they represent the interests of the common man in this country(aka president/current american government)... you better grow up drake. open your eyes to all the bullsh!t going on around you. sending our men and women off to fight wars perpetuated by some bloodsucking corporate entities and a lobbied political community is asinine to say the least... more than ever we need american soliders on american soil... while your lot is off fighting the ghost terrorists somewhere, the real terrorists will destroy our country from the inside out and LEGALLY.

No wonder nobody comes here anymore.that's odd, i have been recieving more than my fair share of private messages these days. :)

bawang

12-28-2009, 01:33 PM

who likes the idea of adding modern firearms to traditional kung fu? firearms in ancient china seemed to have mystical and mebbe sacred powers. i think this day and age the only way to move on is to learn from modern tiems

since kung fu loves forms so much why not make a gun form? do a kung fu salute with a gun then do some basic drawing and shooting postions. it wud be badass
bagua circle walking with a riot shield and shotgun :eek: why not

i like us army its the most advanced army inthe world with incredib le technology. if americans love their country they would be unstoppable

Lucas

12-28-2009, 01:58 PM

have you seen that movie staring batman: equalibriam? (sp) its got a 'gun kata' in it. neat and silly at the same time. supposedly based off of angles and high percentage reaction blah blah blah blah.....

bawang

12-28-2009, 02:05 PM

noe

im saying a few basic army rifle drills with a kung fu salute in the beginning and the end is a better step in teh rite direction than researching "how to defeat the deadly ju jitsu"

Lucas

12-28-2009, 02:13 PM

i think a lot of instructors could get good use out of things like this:

modern cqb tactics.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/cqb-assault-rifle-defense/

also:

PLA bayonet drill: IE: Rifle kungfu form/drills/sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqBDbCR2gww

Kpower

12-28-2009, 02:15 PM

The way things are heading only governments and criminals will have guns, not that there is much difference.

Lucas

12-28-2009, 02:16 PM

and texans

bawang

12-28-2009, 02:24 PM

Lucas

12-28-2009, 02:30 PM

its true. walking home saturday night past lots of clubs by myself, 2 seperate times people tried to insult me thinking i wouldnt hear or wouldnt say anything, each time i asked them what their problems were they shut up. earlier that night i was in a club with some friends and (one of my friends gets in too many fights) this guy and his friend were trying to make people hurry up the stairs so they could get up, telling the women to hurry up, my friend told him to shut up. the guy was a serious roider you could tell, super bad acne all over and big muscles. he started to get in my friends face and my friend told him he would feed him his mini testicles, and the guy backed down LOL in front of everyone even.

he has no face. no one has face anymore.

Kpower

12-28-2009, 03:10 PM

I have no fear of the army. In the end they are people just like me and I have a hard time believing that they would turn on their families. My comment about the government was simply that they are gaining more and more control. They take our guns then point out the criminals/terrorists and say hey we need more money. It's another case of them creating a problem which, as luck would have it, only they can solve and the solution costs us a bit more freedom and a ton of money.

I don't think my curly pubes really have anything to do with being strong or courageous either.

Drake

12-28-2009, 03:13 PM

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "

John Stuart Mill

Again...Uki... grow up.

Drake

12-28-2009, 03:13 PM

bawang

12-28-2009, 03:25 PM

You haven't met the right Americans, then.
im just generalizing bro

its true. walking home saturday night past lots of clubs by myself, 2 seperate times people tried to insult me thinking i wouldnt hear or wouldnt say anything, each time i asked them what their problems were they shut up. earlier that night i was in a club with some friends and (one of my friends gets in too many fights) this guy and his friend were trying to make people hurry up the stairs so they could get up, telling the women to hurry up, my friend told him to shut up. the guy was a serious roider you could tell, super bad acne all over and big muscles. he started to get in my friends face and my friend told him he would feed him his mini testicles, and the guy backed down LOL in front of everyone even.

he has no face. no one has face anymore.

too true mang.
i got invited to a white people party, i got drunk and told someone ill rap their family and burn down their house, and for some strange reason they all got freaked out. you cant even get into a drunken rage in this country.
i remember i went visiting back home at 14 my friends all had a reunion and drank 80 cents liquor ba ga niang, we were all like "WHAT U LOOKING AT? YOU WANT DIE?!??!" it was great. whats wrong with young people in the western world today?

its funny, when white kids drink beer these days in canada they call it "the juice". lollol

taai gihk yahn

12-28-2009, 04:01 PM

if americans werent so liberal and castrated they wouldnt be threatened by the army
only sheep is afraid of wolfs
westerners are so hairy with hairy chest and huge curly pubic hair yet act like womans

if I meet u onna street, I cut you man, I CUT YOU!

don't fack w/me, squinty...:mad:

[oops, gotta go, wife is home from work, gotta ditch the apron and meet her at the door w/smiles...]

TenTigers

12-28-2009, 04:08 PM

Bawang-pubic hair's supposed to be curly-otherwise you'd poke your eyes out.:D

For you, Bawang. enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tINWl0gzQWI&feature=related

uki

12-29-2009, 01:35 AM

Yum Cha

12-29-2009, 04:34 AM

Bawang-pubic hair's supposed to be curly-otherwise you'd poke your eyes out.:D

For you, Bawang. enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tINWl0gzQWI&feature=related

Rubbish! Women's pubic hair is curley to hide the hooks...

Dragonzbane76

12-29-2009, 05:22 AM

he who stands for nothing, will fall for anything.

quoting a country song i would never have thunk it....:p

uki

12-29-2009, 07:14 AM

quoting a country song i would never have thunk it.thanks - now i DO know it is used in country songs... not everyone lives in them inter-mingled family hollows, line dancing with their wife, who happens to also be their aunt. :)

Dragonzbane76

12-29-2009, 07:20 AM

thanks - now i DO know it is used in country songs... not everyone lives in them inter-mingled family hollows, line dancing with their wife, who happens to also be their aunt.

haha uki you try and insult me all the time and it just doesn't work i'm not ray. You could never ever ever ever possibly insult me. :)
like i said I'm just trying to help you. I was informing you that it was from a country song. Not that i'm any kinda expert on it just something i picked up. as for my family you presume a lot. like my last post, keep thinking what you will of me. I could care less, and you couldn't be more wrong. :)

have a great day. your friend dragon.

uki

12-29-2009, 07:28 AM

have a great day. oh it's been wonderful so far... i had some pre-dawn morning exercises under the stars. :)

Dragonzbane76

12-29-2009, 07:35 AM

not much of a morning person... i usually save all my training for evenings. under the purple twilight of evenings shade. (my mimic of poetic reference to uki)

goju

12-29-2009, 07:51 AM

lol i find ukis posts amusing

unless you are prone to bouts of e-pen!s measuring online he isnt a bother to the board

KC Elbows

12-29-2009, 11:13 AM

Drake

12-29-2009, 11:25 AM

The funniest part of this thread was when someone did an internet search to find out that buckshot is not a perfect long range weapon. I'm expecting them to followup with a series of hard hitting internet based forays into the world of knowledge such as "boobies have nipples" and "gangsters are losers."

I knew it wasn't, but I was actually, on a personal level, curious about the actual stats as to what level shotgun x with buckshot y began to lose effectiveness. I was sincerely interested. I mean, we all know it does dramatically lose effectiveness, but I wanted to know how far and to what degree.

I'm not really bothered by Uki. He's sort of our resident troll, contributing nothing while acting like he knows everything about everything by using cheesy quotes you'd find on The Matrix.

KC Elbows

12-29-2009, 11:39 AM

He's sort of our resident troll, contributing nothing while acting like he knows everything...

Yes, we aren't trolls, he's the troll. What we do online is completely different!:D

Lucas

12-29-2009, 11:46 AM

im more of an ogre....or a goblin.

kfson

12-29-2009, 11:51 AM

thanks - now i DO know it is used in country songs... not everyone lives in them inter-mingled family hollows, line dancing with their wife, who happens to also be their aunt. :)

Not all these here country folk will take that there'n as fighten words. So, if'n you traysure your vitels hot, I spect you fix to commence a musteren of country pride. Last one'r your kind come through these here parts, well, han't seen that there slicker in ny on a coon's age.

Shouts,
From up the Holler

Dragonzbane76

12-29-2009, 11:56 AM

lol sounds like some people I have met...lol..

uki

12-29-2009, 05:19 PM

I knew it wasn't, but I was actually, on a personal level, curious about the actual stats as to what level shotgun x with buckshot y began to lose effectiveness. I was sincerely interested. I mean, we all know it does dramatically lose effectiveness, but I wanted to know how far and to what degree.i practice shooting bricks at like 30 yards with an open sight using 1oz slugs... 00 buckshot holds a pattern within a foot diameter at that range also and still with enough power to pass thru a solid 2" wooden door. i shot my truck too at about 10 yards and i punched holes thru one side of the bed wall and out the other - passing thru the running boards i happened to have lying in the back... my shotgun is fully choked and 48 inches from stock to the end of the sliding barrel. i'd say that if i can plug bricks and bats at an average of 30 yards with my glasses off on an open sight, that the gun is good enough for self defense and all-round home security. :D

I'm not really bothered by Uki. He's sort of our resident troll, contributing nothing while acting like he knows everything about everything by using cheesy quotes you'd find on The Matrix.knowing everything is different than understanding everything. :p