Theorists test your theories

[Phil Redmond]

We need to get down to business as martial artists. I'm in the East coast
and have a couple of venues for full contact sparring to test the theories many WC people hold to. Hopefully there are people in other areas that would be willing to start full contact events. It would be in a friendly environment with the goal being to test your WC. We had our first comp in Spanish Harlem against other styles. Yeah I know, you won't see the perfect WC techs you see in cooperative drills (even like the ones I do), but you have to start somewhere. I see too much talk and not enough action. Now I know that all people who get into WC aren't interested in fighting.
People do WC for varied reasons. The problem with that is the people who don't try what they are taught will NEVER know if what they are taught works. That is a fact. I have a rep in NYC as a fighter. That's why I was invited to be in the Urban Dragons documentary. They say that I am an exception. Most marital artists laugh at WC people. I think of us as a family and I get p***ed when I hear people dog WC.

[Phil Redmond]

I'll bet there'll be more talkers (if any), on this thread than takers. :(

[Paul T England]

One thing that I have noticed is that hard training keeps people honest....egos have less room to expand.

Don't do much full contact at the moment with my guys but lots of one step type practical drills with shin guards etc.

If you love wing chun then we should all work together to make our styles and systems grow an be respected in the martial arts world.

Merry Christmas
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Phil Redmond]

One thing that I have noticed is that hard training keeps people honest....egos have less room to expand.

Don't do much full contact at the moment with my guys but lots of one step type practical drills with shin guards etc.

If you love wing chun then we should all work together to make our styles and systems grow an be respected in the martial arts world.

Merry Christmas
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
I agree and Merry Christmas to you.

[Ali. R]

One thing that I have noticed is that hard training keeps people honest....egos have less room to expand.

Don't do much full contact at the moment with my guys but lots of one step type practical drills with shin guards etc.

If you love wing chun then we should all work together to make our styles and systems grow an be respected in the martial arts world.

Merry Christmas
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk


Spoken like a true scholar, honesty and hard work (without the ego) plays a major roll in ones development….

There is always someone better (physically and mentally) and there is a lot that we can learn from each other, even from the youngest minds (if sincere)…

It’s always less stressful then being the old guy that chases and yells at school children from stepping on the edge of his lawn on the way home from school…

Instead of that, one should realize that each child is a gem within his or her own world or families, which can bring more promising notes of achievement (their community or even the world) within the realm of higher education…

Let’s not intimidate the young ones in thinking that their physical prowess can carry them through life, and higher education or understanding (pondering) of any kind is a waste of time…

The higher the understanding the higher the reward becomes, make your mind the best weapon first before going physical… I hope and pray that’s what a surgeon does, before performing surgery….


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Remember, some of the best gladiators were high-ranking soldiers, highly trained in combat before even becoming famous gladiators…

Same goes for those in WestPoint; the best of the best…


Ali Rahim.

[Fa Xing]

Man, I wish I lived on the east coast for this, it would be nice to have a little friendly sparring with some WC practitioners :).

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'll bet there'll be more talkers (if any), on this thread than takers. :(

It's just too far for most people. Smokers happen all over the country on a weekly basis. There is no need to travel for no real payoff.


"we need to get down to business" Really? Many of us have been, "down to business," and continue to do so. Participation in your tournament is little indication of anyone's sincerity.

[t_niehoff]

You don't need to start your own full-contact "events" (a really poor idea, IMO).

What a WCK practitioner who is interested in really developing his skill needs to do is do what any person interested in developing good fighting skills needs to do -- go train (spar) with the best proven fighters you can find, and spend a lot of time (hundreds of hours) sparring with them. Practice making your art work against those fighters. Seeking out and sparring with karate people or other gung fu people is pointless (how can sparring with other poor fighters make you better?) -- go spar with good, proven MMAists, muay thai fighters, boxers, etc.

This isn't rocket science -- if you want to develop good ground, grappling skills what should you do? Go train with good ground grapplers. Spend hundreds of hours sparring/rolling with them. It doesn't matter what your style or art, in developing skill what matters is the amount of quality sparring that you do.

[Phil Redmond]

You don't need to start your own full-contact "events" (a really poor idea, IMO).

What a WCK practitioner who is interested in really developing his skill needs to do is do what any person interested in developing good fighting skills needs to do -- go train (spar) with the best proven fighters you can find, and spend a lot of time (hundreds of hours) sparring with them. Practice making your art work against those fighters. Seeking out and sparring with karate people or other gung fu people is pointless (how can sparring with other poor fighters make you better?) -- go spar with good, proven MMAists, muay thai fighters, boxers, etc.

This isn't rocket science -- if you want to develop good ground, grappling skills what should you do? Go train with good ground grapplers. Spend hundreds of hours sparring/rolling with them. It doesn't matter what your style or art, in developing skill what matters is the amount of quality sparring that you do.

I agree with you about sparring with good people from outside of your school. I'm not trying to start my "own" full contact event. Maybe I should clarify. There many venues in NYC but I have a friend that will allow people to use his ring and cage for smokers.

[t_niehoff]

I agree with you about sparring with good people from outside of your school. I'm not trying to start my "own" full contact event. Maybe I should clarify. There many venues in NYC but I have a friend that will allow people to use his ring and cage for smokers.

Having "smokers" against karate or other kung fu people is a waste of time. You mentioned in your first post that people laugh at WCK. Well, this sort of thing is one reason they laugh.

I could give you a whole list of other reasons -- following the "system" of someone with no demonstrable fighting skill, using finger strikes to pressure points, form practice, talking about chi, teaching unrealistic techniques,
unrealistic training, etc.

If you think I am wrong or being harsh, go discuss these things over at mma.tv or bullshido and see what reception they get.

Just go and regularly cross-train at a good, proven MMA or MT school, and you will spar some decent, competent fighters every single class. Train like a fighter alongside other fighters.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Your posts are a waste of time.

The same old crap that always amounts to a giant lecture about fighting/application/training, etc. by someone who has never shown anyone around here literally ANYTHING of what he can do.

Who do you think you're kidding, anyway?! :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

Your posts are a waste of time.

Then don't read them.

[Phil Redmond]

Having "smokers" against karate or other kung fu people is a waste of time. You mentioned in your first post that people laugh at WCK. Well, this sort of thing is one reason they laugh.

I could give you a whole list of other reasons -- following the "system" of someone with no demonstrable fighting skill, using finger strikes to pressure points, form practice, talking about chi, teaching unrealistic techniques,
unrealistic training, etc.

If you think I am wrong or being harsh, go discuss these things over at mma.tv or bullshido and see what reception they get.

Just go and regularly cross-train at a good, proven MMA or MT school, and you will spar some decent, competent fighters every single class. Train like a fighter alongside other fighters.
You assume too much. We don't only fight with TMAs. We have a Pro boxer and other good MMA people. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Your posts are a waste of time.

The same old crap that always amounts to a giant lecture about fighting/application/training, etc. by someone who has never shown anyone around here literally ANYTHING of what he can do.

Who do you think you're kidding, anyway?! :rolleyes:
Agreed, we NEVER see any of what Terence does yet he criticizes everyone else. Then he makes assumptions that some of us only train with scrubs. He can't possibly know who I, you, or any of us train with. Now if he asks for video proof I can provide it if he provides at least one vid of himself. Otherwise. . . . .:rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

You assume too much. We don't only fight with TMAs. We have a Pro boxer and other good MMA people. ;)

I don't assume, I base my conclusions on the evidence you yourself have presented -- you put up tons of clips, but you never put up any with your pro boxer or good MMA people, but you do put up clips of sparring with kung fu and karate people.

And, I have trouble believing that you guys train with a pro boxer or good MMA people based on the things you show on your clips -- that sort of experience would show you rather quickly that many of the techniques you present are unrealistic.

[t_niehoff]

Agreed, we NEVER see any of what Terence does yet he criticizes everyone else. Then he makes assumptions that some of us only train with scrubs. He can't possibly know who I, you, or any of us train with. Now if he asks for video proof I can provide it if he provides at least one vid of himself. Otherwise. . . . .:rolleyes:

I criticize everything, even what I do. Critical analysis -- which involves an attitude of NOT taking anything for granted as true or valid -- is in short supply here.

I base my view that you train with scrubs on the stuff that you show -- which would only work against scrubs (for example, how often are you able to pull off your double pak sao - where you pak sao a punch with both hands at the same time -- on the pro boxer or good MMA fighters?). I think that anyone who trains with decent fighters would KNOW better. If you train with good people, and have put up I don't know how many clips of yourself and your students, why don't you ever put up any of the good guys?

If you don't want your clips criticized or people to form opinions based on what clips you do present, then don't present them. You brought up how you don't like people to "dog" WCK. Well, the stuff you are presenting is part of the problem -- you show mostly unrealistic techniques and your guys sparring with scrubs and somehow think that this will change people's (the fighters) perceptions of WCK people? Are you kidding? If you don't believe me, take those things over to mma.tv or sherdog or bullshido and see what they think. You'll see that your clips are received just as I say.

As far as clips of myself go, I don't think what I do is worthy of being put up on youtube. I'm not that good. But, at least I realize that -- which comes from training with some good fighters. And that's what I mean: if you put in the time training with good MMA fighters or pro boxers, you too wouldn't believe you were very good and you'd be embarrassed to present those unrealistic techniques.

[Ali. R]

T,

You’re honest; please never change your style and way of posting for no one…


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .
As far as clips of myself go, I don't think what I do is worthy of being put up on youtube. I'm not that good. But, at least I realize that -- which comes from training with some good fighters. And that's what I mean: if you put in the time training with good MMA fighters or pro boxers, you too wouldn't believe you were very good and you'd be embarrassed to present those unrealistic techniques.
With regards to training with scrubs. You're still assuming. I have nothing to prove to you so keep guessing. I've fought full contact against some good fighters one of whom was a pro. So I do know a little something about full contact. It's nice that you've admitted that you're not that good. Even more reason for me to ignore your criticisms.

[Phil Redmond]

T,

You’re honest; please never change your style and way of posting for no one…


Ali Rahim.

:rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

I don't assume, I base my conclusions on the evidence you yourself have presented -- you put up tons of clips, but you never put up any with your pro boxer or good MMA people, but you do put up clips of sparring with kung fu and karate people.

And, I have trouble believing that you guys train with a pro boxer or good MMA people based on the things you show on your clips -- that sort of experience would show you rather quickly that many of the techniques you present are unrealistic.
Just because I don't upload every clip I have doesn't mean they don't exist. I have clips but I don't put all the clips I have up. The fights I put up are mostly begginers getting their feet wet. At least they're fighting. You haven't put up one clip to support your ideas. There are a few people here who know. Who we train with. I don't really care about what you think or believe.

[Ali. R]

The problem that I see is this; most serious fighters don’t throw hide hooks and looping round kicks…

It’s usually a jab and a straight right up the middle with some serious funk on it…

I can see looping shots and wide kicks coming, but the stuff that gets you knocked clean out the frame is something you can’t see or time as well…

That’s why I blow right up the middle with some of the nastiest stuff that just falls under a felony arrest (if it’s chi sao or light sparring.) one has to feel something heavy and straight up the middle consistently, to keep from seeing my approach coming…

And if one is not trained to deal with stuff coming straight up the middle, “Man Oh Manachevas” or should I quote the famous football great Rosey Grier, “Oh happy Days”…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWHNA_j7h5A


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

I see a few looping shots here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YRLlGJyhBE and they're pros.

There are some more here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5P3HMednWk

Even the great Chuck does them Hmmm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-aT73QkMZ8

Oh no,not Tyson; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0vl6iTlC4

Ali: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA9bS7vHo_Y

Remy Bonjasky's wide kicks:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZwCPZit5Os

Even Yoel Judah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=areuoTC_IQE who trained me does a few looping punches.
People like me who have competed full contact know s**t happens. People who haven't can only speculate. You're NOT going to see perfect kung fu movie choreography when two people are trying to wreck each other.

[Wayfaring]

Actually, one of the MT coaches at an org I drop in on has people throw overhand rights that loop at people with good straight ahead boxing. They're harder to see :)

And as far as vids go, I'm OK with not seeing a bunch of middle aged men wheezing all over and pro MMA fighters trying not to hurt their elders.

All these arguments are for middle aged men anyways. The youngsters have never lived in times without cell phones and where TMA's worked.

[Ali. R]

You will see real kung fu when it’s real, just like boxers having good form consistently all through their matches (good boxers)…

Just like I worthless boxer with bad form you can see it clear as day light, and sometime you know who's going to win before it’s over…

Kung Fu is the same way, why can other fighters (from different fighting systems) keep good form, but not kung fu practitioners?

Because of weak legs and poor balance with no true substance in their stance and no body unity or control of any kind.

That’s called a novice-playing master, and if one can’t keep good form while under pressure to the point that someone can identify each movement like one does in boxing, then it’s pure sloppiness.

If kick boxers, boxers and MMA fighters can do it (keep form) so can wing chun kung fu…

Only reason why a master don’t keep good form when under pressure is because their fundamentals are lacking, and if my teacher can’t execute what he’s teaching under pressure and tells me that’s the way it should look in action (sloppy wing chun), then I’m running the other way.

Don’t pee down my back and tell me it’s raining...


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Only reason one gets hit with a looping shot is because he has no ideal on how to move out of the way, a major problem for most fighters specially beginners…

I can see a looping shot from a mile away and so can my young boxers as well, and can move out of the way because of good balance and foot work training…

Good fighters can do that while keeping good form.

But not Kung Fu!?!?!


Ali Rahim.

[Wayfaring]

Both of Fedor's last opponents have been caught by a looping right. I don't know that you could consider Andre Arlovski or Brett Rogers beginners. Arlovski is probably one of the best standup boxers in MMA. Most of it is all in the setup whether or not you can see it coming. The overhand right usually is a counterpunch to land it - that's what makes it harder to see. So you land it a little off tempo after the opponent's 2 while pulling your head offline.

Also, MMA boxing is a little different than regular boxing. You're a little less spry needing to defend takedowns and clinch work against a cage. Actually IMO a stance with 4 weapons online and in range works better for MMA boxing than a traditional one side forward boxing stance (I know that's not the only boxing stance). So a good wing chun stance or MT stance seems to work.

I agree with you on the form and fundamentals of good kung fu. I think if people developed good fundamentals and practice in a live MMA environment the skills will stand up - but few do that, so they never make the little adjustments required for skills to stand up.

And the clips I've seen of your young boxers look good - good balance, good weapons and defence, good footwork. They'd just need clinch and ground to be solid MMA guys.

Anyway, good discussion.

[Ali. R]

The one who keeps the best form in a real life situation mostly always win in the end, because the travel time differential of strikes is very high compared to one with very bad form when under pressure…

You must train yourself almost to be perfect in every step of the way; there is no other way to bring your system to life, find out what went wrong and go back to it, and master it…

Never leave an incomplete within the journey of mastery for the title should show in ones ability and not reputation, it stands out all by itself without any help of any kind (not even your own words), the word master will be displayed.

If someone is truly cut from mastery (very hard work), it will show itself as being almost perfect to the human eye when under pressure (not sloppy).


Ali Rahim

[Ali. R]

No, they all want to be on HBO boxing when they finish golden gloves; they’re not interested in nothing but boxing. More money in boxing…;)


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

With regards to training with scrubs. You're still assuming. I have nothing to prove to you so keep guessing. I've fought full contact against some good fighters one of whom was a pro. So I do know a little something about full contact. It's nice that you've admitted that you're not that good. Even more reason for me to ignore your criticisms.

Fine, you fought "full contact" -- what ever that means (probably kickboxing). Well, so did Hendrik and look at his theories. ;)

Yes, I've admitted that I'm not that good; I've never claimed I was. ANYONE who trains with good fighters will realize that about themselves very, very quickly. In fact, I think it's fair to say that if you think you are good, then you aren't training with good people! It's very easy to deceive yourself (remember the guy who thought he was the best WCK fighter in the world?). And in WCK circles, self-deception runs rampant.

But while I'm not that good, by training with good people I've accumulated the experience to recognize poor crap when I see it. For example, the TWC entry technique -- if you were training with "good MMA people" as you say, then you'd know that it is silly and only trains you to get taken down at will. You'd know why even your TWC "prefighting posture" and movement is setting you up to get taken down. That's why when you say you are "training with good MMA people" that I don't believe you. If you were training with good MMA people, you wouldn't be doing those sorts of things anymore. Those clips you put up may fool people who don't know better (97% of WCK people), but they won't fool people who train with good fighters.

Now, I don't care that you put up clips of how to fail, but I find it ironic that you do that on one hand and on the other talk about "proving your theories" and not liking it when people "dog" WCK.

PS -

BTW, I just saw this video of yours http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4huGOR6SXBM
where the description reads "Training in NJ boxing gym with pro boxers." So, when you talk about "training with pro boxers", it appears you mean that you guys are doing your training in the same facility that pro boxers train (since no one in that clip is training WITH a pro boxer). Do you think that is being honest?

[Ultimatewingchun]

No...trying to pass oneself off as a legitimate judge (jury and executioner) of what good fighting/wing chun is all about while simultaneously saying that "I, myself, am not that good" is being honest.

Again, just who do you think you're kidding? :rolleyes:

You're the most dishonest guy on the block - because to listen (read) your long, never-ending pontifical posts one would think that you're a fighting/wing chun expert.

God, what a joke you are...

[t_niehoff]

No...trying to pass oneself off as a legitimate judge (jury and executioner) of what good fighting/wing chun is all about while simultaneously saying that "I, myself, am not that good" is being honest.


You don't have to be a good ground grappler (and I'm not very good) to be able to know and recognize what is poor grappling. When you put in the time - hundreds of hours - actually rolling with good grapplers, you learn what is good grappling and what isn't. And that's the same for stand-up and clinch.

Look, I don't care what anyone's style or lineage is, there are certain things ANYONE has to do to not be taken down easily by someone with a decent takedown game. If you put in the time with good MMA fighters or good wrestlers, you will see that. You learn those things and you incorporate them into what you do. Being able to deal with the takedown BEGINS with how you stand and how you move. Don't take my word for it -- go train WITH (and not just in the same facility) some good MMA people or wrestlers (instead of video) and you'll see that for yourself.

If you don't know what those things are and you teach people to stand and move in ways that don't incorporate them into your WCK method, what are you teaching them other than to be taken down at will? Remember the video of the TWC kid fighting the MMA kid?



Again, just who do you think you're kidding? :rolleyes:


Unlike some of you guys, I'm not trying to fool anyone -- least of all myself.



You're the most dishonest guy on the block - because to listen (read) your long, never-ending pontifical posts one would think that you're a fighting/wing chun expert.

God, what a joke you are...

If you think that it is because you aren't bothering to read my posts. I've never made grandiose claims about my own skill level, and I've repeatedly said that people shouldn't take what I say as authority but to listen to the proven experts (proven fighters and fight trainers). What you don't like is that I say don't listen to the likes of you and those like you. You don't like it that I question your authority. You don't like it that I point out that your grandmaster's "new clothes" are a fantasy.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You PURPOSELY don't get the point; but then again, you've always done that.

You make grandiose statements about your ability to judge what good wing chun/fighting is all about. And they're grandiose because...

you, yourself, are not very good. So you are not in a position to judge.

End of story.

[t_niehoff]

You PURPOSELY don't get the point; but then again, you've always done that.

You make grandiose statements about your ability to judge what good wing chun/fighting is all about....

because you, yourself, are not very good. So you are not in a position to judge.

End of story.

I keep pointing out that you don't need to be very good (if you did, then none of us would be in any position to judge either!) to know what is good fighting, whether WCK or anything else. What it takes is significant experience doing it with/against good fighters in sparring. You don't need to be a good ground grappler to know what is good or bad grappling, but what you do need is the experience (and a significant amount of it) of rolling with skilled people. It's the same for stand-up and clinch.

If so-and-so teaches a certain way to stand and move, I don't judge it from a dogmatic perspective (that is how things are done in TWC) but from a functional perspective -- is that going to work in fighting? I know from experience the things ANYONE needs to do to be able to deal with a good takedown game. These things aren't secret -- they can be learned from any good wrestler or any good MMA gym. You don't ahve to be a bad-ass fighter to know them. You could learn them if you took the time to go train with some good, proven wreslters or at a good MMA school. But don't take my word for it, why not post those clips of the TWC entry, the prefighting posture, etc. over on mma.tv or sherdog and ask the wrestlers and the MMA fighters what they think (ask whether they put you out of position to defend or not)? I know you won't do that because we both know what the answer will be, don't we?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again:

End of Story.

[goju]

is it just me or is your brain hurting too vic? lol:D

[t_niehoff]

is it just me or is your brain hurting too vic? lol:D

That's what happens when you first try to think. Don't give up, though, it takes lots of practice to get it right.

[Ali. R]

All I’m saying is, there is a way to train the young student to always keep good form (when sparring) and I can point out at least three lineages that do so, because it’s highly important that the student identifies with the system, and without deviation on all levels…

Students should realizes if something comes out of their teachers mouth (Masters) and if he can’t back it up in real time, then there is a problem, if he’s too old then he should retire and stop talking about how good of a fighter he is or just continue to give good knowledge only (humbly)…

And I'm bringing up the fact that I had my ass handed to me by guys that were not masters and many masters a like, and I know what my own eyes tells me; you just got to have some humility in your life in all stages of development…

Just to keep one humble.

Some take the word “master” just to seriously backwards… To the common mind it’s over, when the real journey has just now begun.


Ali Rahim.

[goju]

That's what happens when you first try to think. Don't give up, though, it takes lots of practice to get it right.

yes youre right it is pointless trying to mentally process how you can be such an clueless mouth breathing windbag:D

[Ali. R]

This is what happens when you have no center control of oneself (stance point of view), your wing chun my turn out like this…

Sad thing is, most masters swear by this. Maybe it’s all they know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYCJ9_ixVM


Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . BTW, I just saw this video of yours http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4huGOR6SXBM
where the description reads "Training in NJ boxing gym with pro boxers." So, when you talk about "training with pro boxers", it appears you mean that you guys are doing your training in the same facility that pro boxers train (since no one in that clip is training WITH a pro boxer). Do you think that is being honest?
You are too funny....LOL I haven't even checked the clip you're referring to but I know the one. You're assuming again. There IS a "PRO" boxer in that clip. I just didn't upload everything we did that day. I have no need to lie to anyone. :D

[Phil Redmond]

Terence, it's a sad thing that a grown man has to be condescending to others to get his point across. It doesn't faze me because after Marine Corps Boot Camp I can take anything someone says/writes to me and laugh it off. I'm not trying to slam you but you talk down to people here yet you write that you're not that good. Everyone has a right to their opinions but for a guy that has never competed and says that he's not good you have lots of criticisms regarding fighting.
What constitutes good fighters? Do they have to have competed or be a pro? If you train with a pro do you think he's going to go all out on you, of course not. So what do you mean by training with good fighters? I know guys who fight for money that have no martial arts training that can wreck many martial artists. Though he's lost fights Kimbo Slice is one example. Are you saying that you're not good to be humble or that you're really not that good? I don't know you and you could be a badass. If so throw us a bone with some insights.
Yes, it’s been a while since I fought full contact in a “ring” outside of the comfort zone of “sparring” with friends and students. But the fact is that I have done it and I have a little idea on how to train people and what to expect with regards to standup, (admittedly, I’m a newbie when it comes to grappling).
If you can't discuss points of view in a gentlemanly manner then I don’t hear you. You NEVER see me write that other people don’t know what they’re doing or their way is no good. How would that help me in my martial art development?
With regards to the accomplished fighters I know, have fought, trained with, or still training with. I don’t want to post people’s names on some martial arts forum. What I can do is PM you one accomplished fighter’s name and my relationship with them if you promise to PM me the name of one you associate with. If you do that then I’ll send another name and proof if you like. We can go one for one until one of us runs out of names. I’m not into name dropping because is says nothing about my skills but I’ve met a few good fighters during my 39 years in the arts. ;)

[goju]

thats funny that he thinks competing against karate guys is pointless or not a big deal


i recall him going on about how he could hook us up with some of his mma "crew" he trains with to spar and when i said i was up for it he piped down and never mentioned it again lol

i believe he did the same thing with yoshiyahu as well :D

[Phil Redmond]

thats funny that he thinks competing against karate guys is pointless or not a big deal


i recall him going on about how he could hook us up with some of his mma "crew" he trains with to spar and when i said i was up for it he piped down and never mentioned it again lol

I believe he did the same thing with yoshiyahu as well :D
He obviously hasn't met any really good Karateka. Fighting is a state of mind. Not a style.
After digesting this thread I've decided to ignore Terence's posts until he puts up and I really hope he does regardless of how good or bad he looks. I'll give him props for at least demonstrating what he advocates.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Terence is repetetive ad nauseum. He goes on and on about the issues pertaining to Wing Chun and problems with the training methods employed.

The problem is... I'm having a hard time disagreeing with him.

Whilst I am surprised that he is exerting so much effort in trying to persuade people, many of whom are ensnared within the confines of their outmoded training patterns, I hope it forces a few people at least to critically evaluate how they train.

Suki Gosal

[HumbleWCGuy]

Terence is repetetive ad nauseum. He goes on and on about the issues pertaining to Wing Chun and problems with the training methods employed.

The problem is... I'm having a hard time disagreeing with him.

Whilst I am surprised that he is exerting so much effort in trying to persuade people, many of whom are ensnared within the confines of their outmoded training patterns, I hope it forces a few people at least to critically evaluate how they train.

Suki Gosal

I tend to look at the real issue being that he lacks perspective. What he talks about goes a long way towards effectiveness, but for his own sake, he needs to seek a balance.

[t_niehoff]

Terence, it's a sad thing that a grown man has to be condescending to others to get his point across. It doesn't faze me because after Marine Corps Boot Camp I can take anything someone says/writes to me and laugh it off. I'm not trying to slam you but you talk down to people here yet you write that you're not that good. Everyone has a right to their opinions but for a guy that has never competed and says that he's not good you have lots of criticisms regarding fighting.


Phil, why do you consider criticism "condescending"?

And why do you think someone has to be "good" or to have "competed" to know what they are talking about. I've met some BBs in BJJ who never competed (though obviously they've put in thousands of hours sparring). Do you think only BB level people have a grasp of what is or is not good BJJ?

Oh, and, how do you know that I haven't "competed"? Perhaps I don' t mention it since it really isn't relevent.



What constitutes good fighters? Do they have to have competed or be a pro? If you train with a pro do you think he's going to go all out on you, of course not. So what do you mean by training with good fighters? I know guys who fight for money that have no martial arts training that can wreck many martial artists. Though he's lost fights Kimbo Slice is one example. Are you saying that you're not good to be humble or that you're really not that good? I don't know you and you could be a badass. If so throw us a bone with some insights.


By "good fighters" I mean people who have proved they have solid skills (since - and her's the test: they can consistently do in sparring/fighting what they train to do) against other proven fighters. If someone can consistently wreck "martial artists", they have something -- whether great attributes or skills or some combination. Kimbo has good attributes and some solid (boxing) skills.



Yes, it’s been a while since I fought full contact in a “ring” outside of the comfort zone of “sparring” with friends and students. But the fact is that I have done it and I have a little idea on how to train people and what to expect with regards to standup, (admittedly, I’m a newbie when it comes to grappling).


Then why do you teach people unrealistic techniques that they could not possibly use successfully in fighting or are low percentage techniques - like most of your clips? If you aren't seeing those things pulled off consistently in sparring, either by yourself or your students, I would think it would dawn on you that something is wrong. Remember when we had the discussion about how simultaneous blocks and strikes are low percentage (and high risk), and you disagreed? That sort of thing. Then you went through all your fight footage and found one -- only one -- example of your students pulling it off. I think anyone who either spars regularly or even watches others spar regularly would pick up on that simultaneous blocks and striking (at least in noncontact) is generally a poor idea.



If you can't discuss points of view in a gentlemanly manner then I don’t hear you. You NEVER see me write that other people don’t know what they’re doing or their way is no good. How would that help me in my martial art development?


Critical thinking would help anyone in their martial art development. And, being a gentleman doesn't mean to not criticize or debate or not tell the truth. You may not like or appreciate my directness or bluntness, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the underlying views themselves, does it?



With regards to the accomplished fighters I know, have fought, trained with, or still training with. I don’t want to post people’s names on some martial arts forum. What I can do is PM you one accomplished fighter’s name and my relationship with them if you promise to PM me the name of one you associate with. If you do that then I’ll send another name and proof if you like. We can go one for one until one of us runs out of names. I’m not into name dropping because is says nothing about my skills but I’ve met a few good fighters during my 39 years in the arts. ;)

Look, Phil, you can tell me that you train with good people, but as I have said, I have problems believing it when you present anf teach stuff -- like pressure point hitting with the fingers, the TWC entry technique, etc.-- that anyone who put in some time hard sparring with decently skilled people (why "decently skilled"? since just about anything might be pulledoff agains tscrubs) would see simply doesn't work and is nonsense. If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail. Do you appreciate that simple fact?

You posted that you don't like it when people"dog" WCK. As I have tried to point out, many of the things you do and say -- including your clips -- are precisely WHY people (particularly fighters) dog WCK. If you want WCK to be taken seriously, then you need to stop giving people reasons to not take it seriously.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The one thing about BJJ is that it gets too much play as a figting art. Most people who fight in MMA know about BJJ or one of it's sister's but many BJJ black belts just keep their game to mat. Bjj does not automatically equate to fighter. BJJ has moved away from the old Gracie curriculum which was a fighting art.

Edit: T_niehoff, you are condescending. You seem to always start from the assumption that no one knows the first thing about effective martial arts, but yourself. You turned my request for some book information, into the semantic debate on the term "application," which annoyed many and enlightened none.

[goju]

Look, Phil, you can tell me that you train with good people, but as I have said, I have problems believing it when you present anf teach stuff -- like pressure point hitting with the fingers, the TWC entry technique, etc.-- that anyone who put in some time hard sparring with decently skilled people (why "decently skilled"? since just about anything might be pulledoff agains tscrubs) would see simply doesn't work and is nonsense. If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail. Do you appreciate that simple fact?

You posted that you don't like it when people"dog" WCK. As I have tried to point out, many of the things you do and say -- including your clips -- are precisely WHY people (particularly fighters) dog WCK. If you want WCK to be taken seriously, then you need to stop giving people reasons to not take it seriously.

wow apparently you are not aware of royce gracie "borrowing" the twc entry technique and using it to fight huh?:D


yep and finger jabs dont work in a fight not ones ever seen that in mma... oh wait:D

so let me get this right you, by your own account arent that great and likely havent competed or anything yet you know all about fighting and know what works?.... uh yeah


actually people are going to dog wc no matter what internet forums are full of anonymous teenage ufc arm chair warriors who think they know martial arts:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why do you guys always complicate things so much?
You wanna test your grapplings skills? Do a submission grappling match or sport BJJ
Wanna test your wrestling skills? do wrestling.
Boxing? DO boxing.
Etc, etc.
If you want to test a certain limited skillset, find the highest caliber format of that skill set and go for it, you will see how good or bad you are real fast.
If you wanna throw everything together, go do MMA.
Don't over complicate things.

[Ali. R]

Man,

I use to go through hell on this forum, one time I was kick off for something that was proving was one of the student’s (unhappy with his teachings) of the one who lied and complained on me, and he continue to make things up (sires of lies) even after everyone knew it was his student (still was kick off: inside job)…

At least T is speaking his words truthfully. If that’s the way his is then let him be, or respond with some intelligentsia and not make it personal, at least he don’t make things up and try to make people think one-way when it’s the other, and he don’t put himself out there…

T makes more sense because he comes with intelligentsia and common first, then others don’t like what he says, then something must be wrong with him, we have to stop judging each other and response with logic and common sense…

A lot of these guys make things up as they go, and hell, T rip into my a$$ a few times over the years and I never got angry at him or disrespected him,and that goes from the same ones that give out crap (lies) but cant take the truth, a bunch of crybabies…


Ali Rahim.

[goju]

well when hes attacking other posters and claiming they dotn teach th "real" stuff hwo can it not be personal

[t_niehoff]

well when hes attacking other posters and claiming they dotn teach th "real" stuff hwo can it not be personal

Calling someone an "idiot" is a personal attack -- you are attacking their person. Saying someone's ideas or their training methods or their practice isn't sound is not attacking their person but what they think or do. If it were, then ANY criticism would be a personal attack. I suggest you take a look at what an adhominem argument is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

FWIW, I don't talk or think in terms of "real" stuff or "real" WCK. I have no doubt that Phil knows WCK. But knowing WCK (the curriculum) and knowing how and/or being able to use it are not the same things.

[goju]

Calling someone an "idiot" is a personal attack -- you are attacking their person. Saying someone's ideas or their training methods or their practice isn't sound is not attacking their person but what they think or do. If it were, then ANY criticism would be a personal attack. I suggest you take a look at what an adhominem argument is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

FWIW, I don't talk or think in terms of "real" stuff or "real" WCK. I have no doubt that Phil knows WCK. But knowing WCK (the curriculum) and knowing how and/or being able to use it are not the same things.

see and this is the thing you wont offer ANY examples of you showing the right way which leads me to believe you dont know what youre talking about:D

for all we know you dotn even train at you wotn show any evindence of your skill and you never put me or yoshi in contact with any of your people you supposedly train with

[t_niehoff]

Edit: T_niehoff, you are condescending. You seem to always start from the assumption that no one knows the first thing about effective martial arts, but yourself. You turned my request for some book information, into the semantic debate on the term "application," which annoyed many and enlightened none.

When you think critically, you begin from the position of skepticism, that you don't believe ANYTHING until you have sufficient evidence and reason to. That's not condescension. Condescention is when you take a patronizing attitude, not a critical one. Interestingly, I'm the only one here who has admitted that I'm not all that good, I'm not the persons who asks "who are you to criticize me?", etc. Yet, I'm the condescending one. ;)

You asked about books on WCK application and I responded by saying there are none. Application is fighting, i.e., applying WCK, using your WCK in fighting. No one has published a book of the things (using their WCK) they are REALLY pulling off in fighting. So there are no books on WCK application. What there are instead are books that contain techniques that people theorize will work in fighting. I think that an important distinction. Perhaps all you wanted is a book of unrealistic WCK techniques someone calls application.

[Ali. R]

He (T), was attacked first from a clean debate and everyone knows what I’m talking about…

That’s why you don’t see all the old faces that use to support that crap on this thread, and man, it use to be a lot of them (like zombies). Only new faces or newbees now…

No offense,



Ali Rahim

[t_niehoff]

see and this is the thing you wont offer ANY examples of you showing the right way which leads me to believe you dont know what youre talking about:D

for all we know you dotn even train at you wotn show any evindence of your skill and you never put me or yoshi in contact with any of your people you supposedly train with

It's not up to me to "show you the right way" -- do the WORK yourself. No one can show you. That's what you don't seem to want to accept. You learn to surf by surfing, you don't learn by watching someone else surf. It comes from doing it yourself. If you want to learn to make your WCK work, then take yourself down to a good MMA gym and spend the next couple years sparring regularly, and try to work out how to make things work for you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

see and this is the thing you wont offer ANY examples of you showing the right way which leads me to believe you dont know what youre talking about:D

for all we know you dotn even train at you wotn show any evindence of your skill and you never put me or yoshi in contact with any of your people you supposedly train with

Dude, you are NOT willing to travel within your OWN state to train and fight, WTF do you want to travel to St Louis ???

[HumbleWCGuy]

When you think critically, you begin from the position of skepticism, that you don't believe ANYTHING until you have sufficient evidence and reason to. That's not condescension. Condescention is when you take a patronizing attitude, not a critical one. Interestingly, I'm the only one here who has admitted that I'm not all that good, I'm not the persons who asks "who are you to criticize me?", etc. Yet, I'm the condescending one. ;)

You asked about books on WCK application and I responded by saying there are none. Application is fighting, i.e., applying WCK, using your WCK in fighting. No one has published a book of the things (using their WCK) they are REALLY pulling off in fighting. So there are no books on WCK application. What there are instead are books that contain techniques that people theorize will work in fighting. I think that an important distinction. Perhaps all you wanted is a book of unrealistic WCK techniques someone calls application.

I guess that I am going to have to be done with you. You are wrong and now trying to obfuscate the points. Is that Law school 101?

1. Explain something but not justify with logic
2. Redefine words to give a criticisms less weight
3. Point the finger at someone else
4. Addressing points that you are seemingly arguing me down about that I never brought up

All good ways to seem correct when you aren't.

You can be skeptical and logical and all of that, but can you use tact so people actually pay attention to you? Some of it is how you put things and some of it is a matter of saying something when it is appropriate.

[t_niehoff]

I guess that I am going to have to be done with you. You are wrong and now trying to obfuscate the points. Is that Law school 101?


Then be done with me. But I'm not obfuscating at all, but clarifying.



1. Explain something but not justify with logic


Care to explain how my post wasn't logical?



2. Redefine words to give a criticisms less weight


I'm sorry, but I'm not redefining words. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/condescension I'm using them according to their definition; in fact, I looked the word "condescention" up before I responded to your post.



3. Point the finger at someone else


I was merely pointing out that for one accused of being condescending in these discussions, I am the only one who has said he's not that good. Do you think that it is being condescending?

Nor do I take the position that I am -- or anyone is -- above criticism (who are you to criticize me?). Is that condescending too?



All good ways to seem correct when you aren't.

Look, you accuse me of being condescending. I am telling you that my criticisms aren't grounded in some sense of superiority on my part (I said I wasn't that good, didn't I?) -- frankly, I don't even think in those terms. Whether I am better or worse than anyone else is irrelevent.

[Ali. R]

I guess that I am going to have to be done with you. You are wrong and now trying to obfuscate the points. Is that Law school 101?

1. Explain something but not justify with logic
2. Redefine words to give a criticisms less weight
3. Point the finger at someone else
4. Addressing points that you are seemingly arguing me down about that I never brought up

All good ways to seem correct when you aren't.

You can be skeptical and logical and all of that, but can you use tact so people actually pay attention to you? Some of it is how you put things and some of it is a matter of saying something when it is appropriate.


The stuff that you just mention is true to some point, if I one can truly look inside ones mind, T has always been this way, hey I’m not defending him, its just the ways he is…(you make a good point as well).

Hell, my father use to talk to his six sons and look at us sometime in a way that it could make a grown my cry, when the people who knew him feared him and loved him, it’s just who he was…

But he was a very good person and provider.

All I’m saying is, we can’t judge another based on the words and the way the arrange them…

But when somebody says this to someone it can get heated: “You're the most dishonest guy on the block”…

Then he reacted to that shot in a way nobody liked…????

We have to look at all sides of the situation and still not try to judge…


Ali Rahim.

[JPinAZ]

FWIW, I don't talk or think in terms of "real" stuff or "real" WCK. I have no doubt that Phil knows WCK. But knowing WCK (the curriculum) and knowing how and/or being able to use it are not the same things.

And for you to know what Phil is doing that is so 'wrong', you obviously have the goods on what's right, right? Even if you don't have the admitted skill, somehow you know, so why not share?
So, instead of just pointing fingers (that's easy, any monkey can fling poo), why not help fix what's broken with even a few examples of what he should be doing?
What should be done from a WC perspective vs. using the TWC entry tech.? What else should he do differently where you see he's doing things wrong in the videos? You don't have to post a video, since, as you said, you don't have the skill yourself, just tell us here. If you know better than the rest, the solution part should be easy.

And you can skip the 'go train with real fighters rhetoric, we get that.
Skip the "It's not up to me to "show you the right way" -- do the WORK yourself" krap - any idiot knows that. It's videos of Phil's guys doing just that that you are picking apart. Give us YOUR perspective on how to fix what's broken.

[m1k3]

see and this is the thing you wont offer ANY examples of you showing the right way which leads me to believe you dont know what youre talking about:D

for all we know you dotn even train at you wotn show any evindence of your skill and you never put me or yoshi in contact with any of your people you supposedly train with

Actually he does give a very good example. He says if you want to fight go train with people who fight.

Also one doesn't need good skills to recognize good skills. Can you watch football and recognize good football, even though you don't play football at that level? Of course you can and the same goes for fighting or cooking or painting or any other skill set. It is not difficult to recognize good skills but it is much harder to develop them.

What t. doesn't recognize is that there is a sliding scale continuum of training and not everyone needs or wants to be training at the level he does.

There are plenty of us who could be classified as martial hobbyists who have no desire to push themselves to the same limits as an MMA fighter. The basic skills and attributes developed while doing our training are enough to meet our current needs.

BUT, there are a lot of martial artists who view themselves as dangerous fighters and this is far from the truth. As t. points out a reality check by sparring with people who train to fight can be quite an eye opener. Training with people who compete, no matter what the level, tends to discourage the dangerous fighter fantasy.

Just my 2 cents.

[goju]

Dude, you are NOT willing to travel within your OWN state to train and fight, WTF do you want to travel to St Louis ???
what the **** are you talking about? he said there may be gentlemen in our areas he is affiliated with who will spar with us

[goju]

Actually he does give a very good example. He says if you want to fight go train with people who fight..

yes and this is just common sense its hardly anything groundbreaking
:D

[goju]

There are plenty of us who could be classified as martial hobbyists who have no desire to push themselves to the same limits as an MMA fighter. The basic skills and attributes developed while doing our training are enough to meet our current needs.

BUT, there are a lot of martial artists who view themselves as dangerous fighters and this is far from the truth. As t. points out a reality check by sparring with people who train to fight can be quite an eye opener. Training with people who compete, no matter what the level, tends to discourage the dangerous fighter fantasy.

Just my 2 cents.

yepi agree completely with this bud:D

[goju]

It's not up to me to "show you the right way" -- do the WORK yourself. No one can show you. That's what you don't seem to want to accept. You learn to surf by surfing, you don't learn by watching someone else surf. It comes from doing it yourself. If you want to learn to make your WCK work, then take yourself down to a good MMA gym and spend the next couple years sparring regularly, and try to work out how to make things work for you.

no if im going to say somethings wrong i am going to either show or at the very least talk about how to do it the right way and you do neither old chap

[m1k3]

And for you to know what Phil is doing that is so 'wrong', you obviously have the goods on what's right, right? Even if you don't have the admitted skill, somehow you know, so why not share?
So, instead of just pointing fingers (that's easy, any monkey can fling poo), why not help fix what's broken with even a few examples of what he should be doing?
What should be done from a WC perspective vs. using the TWC entry tech.? What else should he do differently where you see he's doing things wrong in the videos? You don't have to post a video, since, as you said, you don't have the skill yourself, just tell us here. If you know better than the rest, the solution part should be easy.

And you can skip the 'go train with real fighters rhetoric, we get that.
Skip the "It's not up to me to "show you the right way" -- do the WORK yourself" krap - any idiot knows that. It's videos of Phil's guys doing just that that you are picking apart. Give us YOUR perspective on how to fix what's broken.

The difference between martial arts and martial sports is the mindset. To use your example in a martial art you are taught an entry technique in a martial sport (wrestling for example) you are taught multiple techniques the may vary quite a bit and you will pick the right one to use based on your own personal game and the person you are rolling with. What works for a tall person may not work as well with a short person, does he have a good sprawl or maybe he likes to tie up to set up his takedowns, how good is his hand fighting (grip control for you non-wrestlers). Your game will vary depending on the circumstances.

So, based on this mindset t. is right when he says I can't show you how to do an entry right because there is no one right entry. You have to figure it out for yourself what works best for you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

what the **** are you talking about? he said there may be gentlemen in our areas he is affiliated with who will spar with us

You said that there is nothing in your area and that all the other places in Colorado are too far, remember?

It sounded like you were willing to go "see" Terrrence.
Now, if you just wanna "test yourself" locally and you are saying that T told you he knows some people, well that is different.
Still, I find it hard to believe that you can't find anyone to fight in your area.

[goju]

You said that there is nothing in your area and that all the other places in Colorado are too far, remember?

It sounded like you were willing to go "see" Terrrence.
Now, if you just wanna "test yourself" locally and you are saying that T told you he knows some people, well that is different.
Still, I find it hard to believe that you can't find anyone to fight in your area.

uh.... no please learn to read i said terrence claims he has mma chums around the us he could possibly put us in contact with to spar i said okay and nadda after that:D

[t_niehoff]

And for you to know what Phil is doing that is so 'wrong', you obviously have the goods on what's right, right? Even if you don't have the admitted skill, experience mut not matter that much, but somehow you know..
So, instead of just pointing fingers (that's easy, any monkey can fling poo), why not help fix what's broken with even a few examples of what he should be doing?


Jonathan, it doesn't follow that because you can recognize things that won't work that you must know what will work. If that were the case, then Edison wouldn't have gone through thousands of unsuccessful light bulbs before he found the one that worked.

It doesn't take, for example, a highly skilled grappler to recognize that someone teaching punching your way out of the mount is an unrealistic technique. All it takes is someone having been mounted a few times to know THAT won't work (and why).

I could make a very good case for developing skill involving more of knowing what not to do (the mistakes, things to avoid, etc.) rather than knowing what to do.

But you do ask a valid question: why won't I help fix what is broken? The answer is because the first step is recognizing that it is broken. If you don't recognize that, there is no motivation to do anything differently. That's why I keep saying people need to do it themselves. As I pointed out to Phil, how TWC teaches to stand and move only sets them up to get taken down at will. He doesn't believe me. How will suggesting changes help him? The only thing that will help him is to go visit some good MMA or wreslters, and spar with them, and see that he is getting taken down at will. He needs to experience that. It's the only way. If and when he does, he'll learn that how you move can significantly impact your liklihood of either being taken down or not taken down, and he'll make the necessary changes to what he is doing.



What should be done from a WC perspective vs. using the TWC entry tech.? What else should he do differently where you see he's doing things wrong in the videos? You don't have to post a video, since, as you said, you don't have the skill yourself, just tell us here. If you know better than the ret, the solution part should be easy.
(skip the 'go train with real fighters rhetoric, we get that. Give us YOUR perspective)

Let me ask you this, do you think standing stationary, flatfooted, with a wide stance and an extended arm is a good way to prevent being taken down? Do you think it offers much of an offensive potential (and so keeps him in check)? Do you realize that circling to your opponent's "blindside"(or lead) generally makes it easier for him to take you down (wreslters want you to move that way)?

No one is going to learn how to stand or how to move from a video. You can only learn it by doing -- and that involves having someone with a good shot trying to get in and take you down. There are a million wrestling videos out there showing it already, right? So if you can learn it from video, why haven't you learned it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

uh.... no please learn to read i said terrence claims he has mma chums around the us he could possibly put us in contact with to spar i said okay and nadda after that:D

I was referring to your OTHER posts on OTHER threads about not being able to find anyone/anywhere to train/fight.
You've made that claim before on other threads and I find it hard to believe that you have that hard a time finding a gym, any gym.

I am not the first poster to mention this "contridictory posting" of yours by the way.

[goju]

I was referring to your OTHER posts on OTHER threads about not being able to find anyone/anywhere to train/fight.
You've made that claim before on other threads and I find it hard to believe that you have that hard a time finding a gym, any gym.

I am not the first poster to mention this "contridictory posting" of yours by the way.
then why are you quoting my conversation where im adressing meeting up with niehoffs friends??:confused: lol

actually yes youre not but apparently you like iron eagle didnt remember/ or follow my convo earlier

i never said i was close to marquarts gym in fact ive said its far away as ive said dozens of times

now as ive told the other gentleman you are more than welcome to look on online maps of where i live in colorado( i live on vance st. in wheatridge) and see that there arent any gyms close by
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

then why are you quoting my conversation where im adressing meeting up with niehoffs friends??:confused: lol

actually yes youre not but apparently you like iron eagle didnt remember/ or follow my convo earlier

i never said i was close to marquarts gym in fact ive said its far away as ive said dozens of times

now as ive told the other gentleman you are more than welcome to look on online maps of where i live in coloradoI i live on vance st. in wheatridge) and see that there arent any gyms close by
:D

I recall you mentioning how you HAVE trained in places and how you have used your training VS BJJ and MMA guys, when and where did this happen?

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=f0M&ei=5oU7S5TLIJWGlAfiwOWXBw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAYQBSgA&q=wheat+ridge+colorado+Martial+arts&spell=1


Enjoy.

[t_niehoff]

then why are you quoting my conversation where im adressing meeting up with niehoffs friends??:confused: lol

actually yes youre not but apparently you like iron eagle didnt remember/ or follow my convo earlier

i never said i was close to marquarts gym in fact ive said its far away as ive said dozens of times

now as ive told the other gentleman you are more than welcome to look on online maps of where i live in colorado( i live on vance st. in wheatridge) and see that there arent any gyms close by
:D

Dzu and Dave used to drive every Sunday from San Diego to LA to Robert's 8:00 am class. There is a guy here who trains at Vaghi's who lives in Rolla, MO (an hour and a half drive from St. Louis). I know of some others who have moved, some across the country, to train (Robert moved from NY to LA to train with Hawkis, for example).

[goju]

I recall you mentioning how you HAVE trained in places and how you have used your training VS BJJ and MMA guys, when and where did this happen?

t'sko which was a convienant five minute walk away from my house:D

as i said a few weeks ago they werent training me hard enough for the amount of money i was paying and they folded a month after i quit and moved to another part of colorado they are called grudge now i think

[goju]

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=f0M&ei=5oU7S5TLIJWGlAfiwOWXBw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAYQBSgA&q=wheat+ridge+colorado+Martial+arts&spell=1


Enjoy.

lol i was just going to post that for you:D
as you see the only thing that looks good is delgados

i trained at the chiense shaolin center for three months if that when iw as 15 it was ajoke as ive noted in my comment sin the shaolin doh thread
and im certainly not going to ussd

[goju]

Dzu and Dave used to drive every Sunday from San Diego to LA to Robert's 8:00 am class. There is a guy here who trains at Vaghi's who lives in Rolla, MO (an hour and a half drive from St. Louis). I know of some others who have moved, some across the country, to train (Robert moved from NY to LA to train with Hawkis, for example).

actually yes i plan on just moving entirely to a different part of the us if not canada :D

[t_niehoff]

actually yes i plan on just moving entirely to a different part of the us if not canada :D

My point is that when you really want something, when it is important to you, then you will find a way to do it. It may not be easy, it may involve sacrafice, but you'll do it. Who said it is supposed to be convenient? There are always excuses for not doing it.

[goju]

http://www.ussd.com/a/

http://atamartialarts.com/
i dunno if you bothered looking at the sites listed along with those adresses lol

[goju]

My point is that when you really want something, when it is important to you, then you will find a way to do it. It may not be easy, it may involve sacrafice, but you'll do it. Who said it is supposed to be convenient? There are always excuses for not doing it.

uh yeah didnt you just hear me say im moving to a region with better gyms lol

[t_niehoff]

uh yeah didnt you just hear me say im moving to a region with better gyms lol

I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not. Good for you. I wish you luck.

[Phil Redmond]

If you you think what I do is useless there is one way to prove me wrong. Otherwise your rants don't mean anything to me.

btw, Condescension is different from criticism
I hope you have a very Happy New Year!!

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . That's why I keep saying people need to do it themselves. As I pointed out to Phil, how TWC teaches to stand and move only sets them up to get taken down at will. He doesn't believe me. How will suggesting changes help him? The only thing that will help him is to go visit some good MMA or wreslters, and spar with them, and see that he is getting taken down at will. He needs to experience that. It's the only way. If and when he does, he'll learn that how you move can significantly impact your liklihood of either being taken down or not taken down, and he'll make the necessary changes to what he is doing. . . . . .
There you go assuming again. First of all I don't teach just one stance. Secondly you obviously don't know our stances or their functions. Thirdly, we have a few grapplers and a guy who runs a wrestling gym? at the NJ school. http://www.topdogwrestling.com/
Anyone can get taken down but we do work against a shot. Dang you assume a lot for someone who never shows anything. :rolleyes:

[Wayfaring]

now as ive told the other gentleman you are more than welcome to look on online maps of where i live in colorado( i live on vance st. in wheatridge) and see that there arent any gyms close by
:D

goju,

Go check out Amal Easton's. He has a place in Arvada that's probably pretty close to you (~5 mi). He's got bjj and muy thai classes, and his guys are awesome.

www.eastonbjj.com

Actually, T'sKO / Grudge is right there in Wheat Ridge too:
http://tskofightclub.com/map.htm

Apparantly Nate Marquardt, Shane Carwin, and Duane Ludwig train there. So in reality you live in a pretty optimal place for training.

[Wayfaring]

Secondly you obviously don't know our stances or their functions.
Phil, in the TWC entry technique, can you elaborate on it's function? What I'm specifically interested in is the application timing. Is this meant to be used as a "bridge the gap" technique, like jabbing your way into closer range for example? Or what is the timing?

I'm asking this specifically as I didn't encounter this technique in the WC I studied (HFY).

[Knifefighter]

The problem that I see is this; most serious fighters don’t throw hide hooks and looping round kicks…

It’s usually a jab and a straight right up the middle with some serious funk on it…

I can see looping shots and wide kicks coming, but the stuff that gets you knocked clean out the frame is something you can’t see or time as well…

That’s why I blow right up the middle with some of the nastiest stuff that just falls under a felony arrest (if it’s chi sao or light sparring.) one has to feel something heavy and straight up the middle consistently, to keep from seeing my approach coming…

And if one is not trained to deal with stuff coming straight up the middle, “Man Oh Manachevas” or should I quote the famous football great Rosey Grier, “Oh happy Days”…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWHNA_j7h5A

Ali Rahim.

Every time you post, you prove how little experience you actually have with real, full-contact fighting. The fact is, when two people are fighting full-on, there will be many times looping strikes are thrown. Watch just about any world championship boxing match and you will see many examples of this.

[goju]

goju,

Go check out Amal Easton's. He has a place in Arvada that's probably pretty close to you (~5 mi). He's got bjj and muy thai classes, and his guys are awesome.

www.eastonbjj.com

Actually, T'sKO / Grudge is right there in Wheat Ridge too:
http://tskofightclub.com/map.htm

Apparantly Nate Marquardt, Shane Carwin, and Duane Ludwig train there. So in reality you live in a pretty optimal place for training.

i was already at t;sko/grudge and i got jipped by them

i wanna look into easton i was given that as well i heard duane trains there too
lol hes a cool guy i remember almost accidentally knocking him out when i was stretching

i was doing leg swings up in the air to warm my legs up before my work out and he was looking the other way and walking by and he turns around and by the grace of god i came about and inch form clipping him right in the mouth lol

[Wayfaring]

i wanna look into easton i was given that as well i heard duane trains there too

I know Nate rolls at Amal's. Amal has a bunch of competition black belts there. Probably all those guys do their BJJ at Amal's for that reason. Amal lives in Boulder so is at that school mainly - Nick Kline runs the Arvada one. But on any given night you could see Josh Ford / Tyrone Glover / Amal / others. I live south in the springs.

[goju]

I know Nate rolls at Amal's. Amal has a bunch of competition black belts there. Probably all those guys do their BJJ at Amal's for that reason. Amal lives in Boulder so is at that school mainly - Nick Kline runs the Arvada one. But on any given night you could see Josh Ford / Tyrone Glover / Amal / others. I live south in the springs.

that sounds great because im waaaaaaaaaay behind in the groud fighting department

[t_niehoff]

There you go assuming again. First of all I don't teach just one stance. Secondly you obviously don't know our stances or their functions.


I'm not assuming anything. I'm looking at your videos and seeing what you are doing, how you and your students stand and move. And you are training to get taken down by anyone with a decent shot.

Here's a general but simple test -- the jump test. Can you WITHOUT PREPARATION (including shifting your weight) jump straight up easily and quickly, like you would in playing basketball? If not, then you won't be able to deal with a good shot. Try that test on your various stances, try it while practicing your moving.



Thirdly, we have a few grapplers and a guy who runs a wrestling gym? at the NJ school. http://www.topdogwrestling.com/


So what if you have people at the school -- the point is that you need to TRAIN with them. And that includes getting on the mat and sparring and telling them to try and take you down whenever they can.



Anyone can get taken down but we do work against a shot. Dang you assume a lot for someone who never shows anything. :rolleyes:

You can "work against the shot" all you want, but if if you aren't learning and training with people with good shots, you're just wasting time. That's like saying "we work on the ground". So what? It is who (their skill) you work with that matters.


BTW, I liked this part of your wrestler's site: "Traditional Wing Chun is considered the most effective street fighting martial art ever devised." When I read nonsense like that it takes all credibility from him.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm looking at your videos and seeing what you are doing, how you and your students stand and move. And you are training to get taken down by anyone with a decent shot.
Not necessarily. You still have no clue and people who know what we do are cracking up at your posts.



Here's a general but simple test -- the jump test. Can you WITHOUT PREPARATION (including shifting your weight) jump straight up easily and quickly, like you would in playing basketball? If not, then you won't be able to deal with a good shot. Try that test on your various stances, try it while practicing your moving.

I can evade a shot with the stance you've criticized . Do I have to make a clip for you? :rolleyes:



You can "work against the shot" all you want, but if if you aren't learning and training with people with good shots, you're just wasting time. That's like saying "we work on the ground". So what? It is who (their skill) you work with that matters.
Just because I don't post clips of everything we don doesn't mean we're not training with them. It wouldn't make sense to have good people around and not train with them.


BTW, I liked this part of your wrestler's site: "Traditional Wing Chun is considered the most effective street fighting martial art ever devised." When I read nonsense like that it takes all credibility from him.
Regardless of your personal feelings towards TWC obviously he believes in it.

I suggest we try what Victor wanted to do a while back, have a meeting in person then we can test each other. Otherwise this back and forth is a waste of time. I can change your views with one meeting and I'll put money on that.

[Ali. R]

Don’t let T push your buttons; show your worth as a master. It’s just a debate kill him with words.


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Not necessarily. You still have no clue and people who know what we do are cracking up at your posts.


You show what you do on your clips, you show what you do in the things you say.

What you don't seem to grasp is that there arecertain paramters or things ANYONE has to do to effectively deal with someone with a decent takedown game. If someone knows that those things are you can see when they are present or not. Anyone who knows those things can see you and your guys aren't doing them.



I can evade a shot with the stance you've criticized . Do I have to make a clip for you? :rolleyes:


Sure you can. You can do it because you know it is coming, because the guy trying to take you down isn't very skilled, etc. If you want to make a clip, why not make one of you sparring a decent MMA guy with a decent shoot? You see, that's the only way to show it.



Just because I don't post clips of everything we don doesn't mean we're not training with them. It wouldn't make sense to have good people around and not train with them.


I think we have very different ideas of what it means to train.



Regardless of your personal feelings towards TWC obviously he believes in it.


People believe in all kinds of things.



I suggest we try what Victor wanted to do a while back, have a meeting in person then we can test each other. Otherwise this back and forth is a waste of time. I can change your views with one meeting and I'll put money on that.

If I get out east, I'll look you up, and if you evercome this way, I'll be happy to meet with you. It is really easy to change my mind -- all you need to do is show me that you can do the things in fighitng that you train to do as you train to do them. Simple. But I know you can't do that -- you won't be able to pull off the stuff you teach. ANYONE who has puts in some time sparring with good people could tell you that. Take you clips over to mma.tv,sherdog, bullshido, and ask them if they think your techniques are realistic. We both know the answer.

[Phil Redmond]

You show what you do on your clips, you show what you do in the things you say.

What you don't seem to grasp is that there arecertain paramters or things ANYONE has to do to effectively deal with someone with a decent takedown game. If someone knows that those things are you can see when they are present or not. Anyone who knows those things can see you and your guys aren't doing them.



Sure you can. You can do it because you know it is coming, because the guy trying to take you down isn't very skilled, etc. If you want to make a clip, why not make one of you sparring a decent MMA guy with a decent shoot? You see, that's the only way to show it.



I think we have very different ideas of what it means to train.



People believe in all kinds of things.



If I get out east, I'll look you up, and if you evercome this way, I'll be happy to meet with you. It is really easy to change my mind -- all you need to do is show me that you can do the things in fighitng that you train to do as you train to do them. Simple. But I know you can't do that -- you won't be able to pull off the stuff you teach. ANYONE who has puts in some time sparring with good people could tell you that. Take you clips over to mma.tv,sherdog, bullshido, and ask them if they think your techniques are realistic. We both know the answer.
You can go to the http://wingchunfightclub.org and view a clip entitled Wing Chun vs Pure Grappler.
The Wing Chun Sifu is Stephen Joffe of the Wong Shun Leung lineage.
The grappler is Brian Wood:
1999 Western Athletic Champion -
2000 Ruters Rank Top 20 Division 1A -
Jiu-Jitsu, Submission Grappling, Freestyle and Greco Roman Wrestling.
At the time if the clip he was undefeated in MMA fights.
This clip explains why the stance you are criticizing makes it more difficult to be taken down since you don't have one leg in front like in a front stance. I have the clip but since it's copyrighted I won't upload it to youtube. If you PM me an email addy I can mail it to you. I'd make you a clip but it seems you'd have to see it done by someone outside of my lineage to believe it. Again, you're making statements about what I can or cannot do with out really knowing. That's very illogical but that's just how you relate to people.
Also, we have someone shoot for the legs during freestyle chi sao. If you can stop a random shot from that close it's easier to stop it from a normal fighting distance. Please contact me when you come east.

[Knifefighter]

You can go to the http://wingchunfightclub.org and view a clip entitled Wing Chun vs Pure Grappler.
The Wing Chun Sifu is Stephen Joffe of the Wong Shun Leung lineage.
The grappler is Brian Wood:
1999 Western Athletic Champion -
2000 Ruters Rank Top 20 Division 1A -
Jiu-Jitsu, Submission Grappling, Freestyle and Greco Roman Wrestling.
At the time if the clip he was undefeated in MMA fights.
This clip explains why the stance you are criticizing makes it more difficult to be taken down since you don't have one leg in front like in a front stance.

Any wrestler knows that the square stance is a better defensive stance to prevent takedowns. Of course, that makes it a less effective offensive stance by default.

Also, any boxer knows that a square stance limits one's mobility and makes it harder to avoid being hit from the outside. Alternatively, that also makes it a better inside offensive stance.

That being said, why is a guy who was supposedly a ranked collegiate wrestler demonstrating a single leg takedown entry that even most mediocre high school wrestlers will immediately spot as incorrect?

[Phil Redmond]

Any wrestler knows that the square stance is a better defensive stance to prevent takedowns. Of course, that makes it a less effective offensive stance by default.

Also, any boxer knows that a square stance limits one's mobility and makes it harder to avoid being hit from the outside. Alternatively, that also makes it a better inside offensive stance.

That being said, why is a guy who was supposedly a ranked collegiate wrestler demonstrating a single leg takedown entry that even most mediocre high school wrestlers will immediately spot as incorrect?

I agree with the first two paragraphs of your post. I have no answer regarding the last sentence since I'm not a qualified wrestler.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . If I get out east, I'll look you up, and if you evercome this way, I'll be happy to meet with you. It is really easy to change my mind -- all you need to do is show me that you can do the things in fighitng that you train to do as you train to do them. Simple. But I know you can't do that -- you won't be able to pull off the stuff you teach. ANYONE who has puts in some time sparring with good people could tell you that. Take you clips over to mma.tv,sherdog, bullshido, and ask them if they think your techniques are realistic. We both know the answer.
You know what? I've never been to MO. I'd be willing to come to where you are to meet maybe during the summer. It'd be good dealing with someone outside of my comfort zone who is trying to knock my head off. I hear there is are lots of Jazz and Blues clubs there. I'd need to know of an "inexpensive" hotel to stay though.
Just don't beat beat me up too bad.

[t_niehoff]

I agree with the first two paragraphs of your post. I have no answer regarding the last sentence since I'm not a qualified wrestler.

You don't need to be a"qualified wrestler" - youor anyone can look at any good book, video, etc. by known, proven good wrestlers and see it for yourself. This is what I find simply amazing -- the information is already out there (on most of this stuff), yet for some reason (perhaps cognitive dissonance), it is ignored.

The other thing i-- and this is why I have trouble believing yourclaim of training with good mma fighters -- is that if you were traing with good mma people as you have said, you'd KNOW what makes a good single leg. You couldn't help but pick that up.

[t_niehoff]

You know what? I've never been to MO. I'd be willing to come to where you are to meet maybe during the summer. It'd be good dealing with someone outside of my comfort zone who is trying to knock my head off. I hear there is are lots of Jazz and Blues clubs there. I'd need to know of an "inexpensive" hotel to stay though.
Just don't beat beat me up too bad.

I look forward to it. St. Louis has lots of inexpensive hotels -- give me some advance notice, and I'll try to find one for you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just watched the vid posted on wingchun fightclub, Phil...and everything the grappler guy said was correct.

However, here's the problem: If the grappler is a little less than "pure" - and decides to move in like a striker/kicker first- then you and I both know that we, as TWC guys, probably won't be in the "square" stance for very long - we will more than likely move into a front stance....

he throws a punch or two (or a kick)...gets close...we're now in a front stance - and he's now in a position to take his shot at a closer range.

I'm not saying that what's demoed in that vid can never work, because I know it can - against certain types of grappling "attacks".

But in a more mixed martial art approach, this is not enough.

[Wayfaring]

Any wrestler knows that the square stance is a better defensive stance to prevent takedowns. Of course, that makes it a less effective offensive stance by default.

Also, any boxer knows that a square stance limits one's mobility and makes it harder to avoid being hit from the outside. Alternatively, that also makes it a better inside offensive stance.

That being said, why is a guy who was supposedly a ranked collegiate wrestler demonstrating a single leg takedown entry that even most mediocre high school wrestlers will immediately spot as incorrect?

This is kind of a good chance to objectively discuss stances and depth of stances. Each stance has strengths and weaknesses.

The forward stances have good mobility forward and back but limited mobility side to side. They also have good range for striking weapons, but limited number of weapons (1 side only). Most effective for offense and pursuit.

The square stances (and in this I am also including a more shallow one foot forward stance) have good mobility side to side but limited mobility forward and back. They have both sides free for striking - most number of weapons, but limited range of weapons. Most effective for defense and counterpunching.

I think people should be pretty fluid working variations of both. And work them against grapplers. There is timing and circumstances where things work. For example, if you land a punch or two on a wrestler and have him back on his heels and/or moving back, you really don't need to worry about being in a square stance to defend the shoot. Forward stance and pursue. If he's up on his toes, looking to trade a couple punches seeking something committed from you to change levels and shoot on, absolutely a shallow stance. You don't discover that stuff except for going live against it.

And yes, the wrestler was pretty sloppy in his entry detail. He did seem to just be talking about stance and susceptibility to grappling, but for sure he should have had some of those details like same side stance opposite hand entry to plant knee in back, and a few other things as well.

[Phil Redmond]

You don't need to be a"qualified wrestler" - youor anyone can look at any good book, video, etc. by known, proven good wrestlers and see it for yourself. This is what I find simply amazing -- the information is already out there (on most of this stuff), yet for some reason (perhaps cognitive dissonance), it is ignored.

The other thing i-- and this is why I have trouble believing yourclaim of training with good mma fighters -- is that if you were traing with good mma people as you have said, you'd KNOW what makes a good single leg. You couldn't help but pick that up.
Believe what you will. I can see things that might or might not work. My point is that I'm not trained in grappling enough to see what Dale or maybe even you can critique. I've also found that one MMA/Grappler might say his way is better and the others are wrong. Just like we do here. ;) When I say training I don't mean studying. Which is why I said I'm not qualified. My training with people is you try to take me down with what you know and I try to stop you. Of course I'll get taken down sometimes. Then I work on why. I will start studying though. That way I can get a better grasp.