The Hung Gar - Wing Chun Connection??

[5thBrother]

is there any?

OK.. yes! ... I did have a longer initial post but it seems to have died in cyber space when my computer decided to crash..... I can't be borther re-writing it all for now.. so to start with : short n sweet: Wing Chun - Hung Gar: any connection/relation?

i'll re start my initial post later on....

1 key question: what art did the nun that founded Wing Chun Study?

[TenTigers]

If you look at the short bridging techniques in Hung Kuen, particularly the Snake and Crane techniques, you will see the identical movements in WCK, as well as other Fukien/Hakka Kuen systems which share commonalities.
It is said that Hung Kuen was originally a short hand system, utilizing a narrower horse, and in fact many Hung styles still use the
Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma in the short bridging sections of the forms.
Wing Chun is descended from Fukien Siu Lum, particularly Fukien Bak Hok, and I believe the Snake and Crane technqies of Siu Lum Kuen.
Some say that the Crane in Hung Ga is from Fukien Bak Hok, as well as Hop-Ga. Could be true-Hop-Ga which is known for the long arm swinging techniques, also contains eight short-hand techniques as well.

I find it intriguing that Fukien Bak Hok and Tibetan Bak Hok (Hop-Ga/Lama P'ai/Bak Hok P'ai) are from opposite sides of the spectrum and yet have similar short bridging techniques.

BOTH Wing Chun and Tibetan White Crane claim Ng Mui as the founder of the system-that little Nun sure got around! In WCK lore, Ng Mui is said to developed the plum flower/rat stepping techniqes. Plum Flower is both a type of footwork, as well as a type of hand techniques found in Fukien/Hakka systems. Rat-step is said to be the shuffling footwork seen in WCK-and again in Fukien/Hakka systems.

(although in Tibetan WC lore, "she" was a monk, not a nun. Maybe she/he's both-kinky! I always figured if a nun could be such a formidable fighter, she probably wasn't some little wisp of a girl. More likely she was closer to a Polish weightlifter, which could explain the confusion)
yet I digress...
It's very hard to say which came first, whom influenced whom. Siu-Lum was a melting pot of Martial Arts. Also, many systems lay claim to Siu-Lum which are not connected to it for credibility, or patriotic reasons.
Guongdong Hung-Ga is more like an overview of Fukien Siu-Lum technique, running the gamut from small horse/short bridge to large Horse/long bridge,Five Animals, Five Elements, Internal, external, etc. Everything was incorperated into the system in order to pass down as much information as possible, allowing each person to find their own way-what best suited them, while still passing on the entire system, rather than a specialization.
That being said, Siu Lum Hung Kuen could have "brought in" Snake and Crane short bridging techniques, or just the opposite; WCK could've extracted the techniques from Siu-Lum.
We may never know, as each system has their own official history and origin.
What we do know is that there are definately very strong similarities which would indicate a common origin.

[5thBrother]

Thanks for the detailed reply TT...
Very interesting read.

See i had a thought, maybe Wing Chun was a subset from Hung Gar .. what I mean is the Nun study Hung Gar and extracted the short arm aspects from it to suit her ideas.. becasue as you stated alot of the techniques and principles are very close/identical..

But the common origin from Fukien Sil Lum makes a lot more sense.. And similarities not restricted to Hung Gar - Wing Chun

Thanks

[Eric_H]

In the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System, Ng Mui (5 petals) is an energy concept, there is no nun in our history that I am aware of.

I would think it more likely that Hung Gar and Wing Chun would share a link in Hung Mun history more than the Nun's origin myth, no?

Also, isn't it a Sil Lum signature to have Crane, Eagle and Dragon together? I think that would simply point to a common origin point rather than one system coming from another.

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=TenTigers;979132]..........................................
.......I find it intriguing that Fukien Bak Hok and Tibetan Bak Hok (Hop-Ga/Lama P'ai/Bak Hok P'ai) are from opposite sides of the spectrum and yet have similar short bridging techniques.

There is someone claiming Tibetan Bak Hok comes from Fukien Bak Hok, ... but then...if that was to be true,.... by extention the all Lion's Roar system should........

BOTH Wing Chun and Tibetan White Crane claim Ng Mui as the founder of the system-that little Nun sure got around! In WCK lore, Ng Mui is said to developed the plum flower/rat stepping techniqes. Plum Flower is both a type of footwork, as well as a type of hand techniques found in Fukien/Hakka systems. Rat-step is said to be the shuffling footwork seen in WCK-and again in Fukien/Hakka systems.

Strange..... in our lineage of TWC is nowhere to be found Ng Mui and I have never encountered any TWC pratictioner mentioning Ng Mui as a possible founder..... Sing Long is the one recorded as the founder.......I have to admit however, that I did find a story in a book in China mentioning Sing Long Zhanglao as the inheritor of Lion's Roar and teacher of Ng Mui...... I would be interested to know what is your source of the story.

Thanks.

[LoneTiger108]

Wing Chun - Hung Gar: any connection/relation?

1 key question: what art did the nun that founded Wing Chun Study?

I find this subject very intriguing, being from the Lee Shing Family of Wing Chun in London, England.

I understand that many origin stories exist for Wing Chun, and they may all have their merits, but does it really matter if we come from a female nun or an ageing militia man? Secret society of revolutionaries or a bunch of opera performers?

What I have always been reminded of is that the style comes from Yim Wing Chun herself, named so by her husband (who by all accounts was a Hung Kuen man) Whether there was a Nun or not who taught YWC for a short while has pretty much no bearing on the fact that she trained continually in Wushu/Martial Arts with her husband until she died, developing what she was shown to become what we know today as Wing Chun.

IMHO all you need to do is look at the content of a style/system to catch a glimpse of their past heritage.

If there is any strong connection between Wing Chun and Hung Gar/Kuen I would place my money on the pole form and practises and possibly the whole interactive spectrum of the curriculum.

[TenTigers]

[QUOTE=TenTigers;979132]..........................................
.......I find it intriguing that Fukien Bak Hok and Tibetan Bak Hok (Hop-Ga/Lama P'ai/Bak Hok P'ai) are from opposite sides of the spectrum and yet have similar short bridging techniques.

There is someone claiming Tibetan Bak Hok comes from Fukien Bak Hok, ... but then...if that was to be true,.... by extention the all Lion's Roar system should........

BOTH Wing Chun and Tibetan White Crane claim Ng Mui as the founder of the system-that little Nun sure got around! In WCK lore, Ng Mui is said to developed the plum flower/rat stepping techniqes. Plum Flower is both a type of footwork, as well as a type of hand techniques found in Fukien/Hakka systems. Rat-step is said to be the shuffling footwork seen in WCK-and again in Fukien/Hakka systems.

Strange..... in our lineage of TWC is nowhere to be found Ng Mui and I have never encountered any TWC pratictioner mentioning Ng Mui as a possible founder..... Sing Long is the one recorded as the founder.......I have to admit however, that I did find a story in a book in China mentioning Sing Long Zhanglao as the inheritor of Lion's Roar and teacher of Ng Mui...... I would be interested to know what is your source of the story.

Thanks.

according to David Chin's book, "Hop Gar Kung-Fu," the monk, Jikboloklotow'who's Chinese name was Ng Mui-who taught Hing-Duk, who taught Wong Yun-Lum.

Again, they are just different "stories" of the origins of these systems.

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;979210]

according to David Chin's book, "Hop Gar Kung-Fu," the monk, Jikboloklotow'who's Chinese name was Ng Mui-who taught Hing-Duk, who taught Wong Yun-Lum.

Again, they are just different "stories" of the origins of these systems.

So,.. based on that book Wong Yan Lum was not taught by Sing Long? Any way Thank you for the info, I'll have to get the book and read it

Regards

[TenTigers]

[QUOTE=TenTigers;979221]

So,.. based on that book Wong Yan Lum was not taught by Sing Long? Any way Thank you for the info, I'll have to get the book and read it

Regards
who knows? Apparently, alot of these guys had more than one name.
(I've been called alot of different names in my life...:-)

[punchdrunk]

I like Hung kuen but I am a Wing Chun student, so my opinions will be biased. On a small level the styles seem to share a lot of basic techniques, similar weapons, and even some similar training apparatus. But really couldn't the same be said of Hung kuen and Choy Lay fut? I think Hung kuen just contains lots of different ideas and techniques and varies quite a lot from lineage to lineage. Also styles form the same area will influence eachother if they interact by competition or demonstration. As for the Ng mui and Gee sim fables.. they should not be used as evidence because they change all the time depending on who tells what story.

[Gru Bianca]

[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;979222]
who knows? Apparently, alot of these guys had more than one name.
(I've been called alot of different names in my life...:-)

Don't worry, we all are called in different ways soon or later, it's a destiny to which nobody can escape :p.

On a serious note though, what type of short hands you see so similar between the "Tibetan" systems and the Fukian White Crane?

[TenTigers]

I am no expert on Bak Hok, but I have seen them do the equivilent of tan sau, bong sau, gaun-sau, as well as the crane's beak(Hok Ding) , and crane's wing (Hok Yik)-all short-hand techniques.
The authorities who frequent this forum such as Rising Crane, Diego, lkfmdc, LamaPaiSifu, etc can give much better details.

[Phil Redmond]

. . .Strange..... in our lineage of TWC is nowhere to be found Ng Mui and I have never encountered any TWC pratictioner mentioning Ng Mui as a possible founder . . .
I'm not sure of what TWC lineage you're referring to but I've been a TWC practitioner for over 26 years and we've always used Ng Mui/Wu Mei in our history. If fact, if you look at the following link from my Sifu's site you'll see what I mean. http://www.cheungswingchun.com/g/899/traditional-wing-chun-kung-fu.html

[TenTigers]

Phil-I think he was referring to Tibetan White Crane, rather than Traditional Wing Chun

[lkfmdc]

the only person who ever claimed Ng Mui had anything to do with Tibetan White Crane is Staples, and he mis-read a Chinese text that said that Hing Duk (aka Sing Lung) studied ON MOI FAH STUMPS (as opposed to studing WITH NG MUI)

it's a goof right up there with our "clear" vs "green" character debate

[Gru Bianca]

I'm not sure of what TWC lineage you're referring to but I've been a TWC practitioner for over 26 years and we've always used Ng Mui/Wu Mei in our history. If fact, if you look at the following link from my Sifu's site you'll see what I mean. http://www.cheungswingchun.com/g/899/traditional-wing-chun-kung-fu.html

Sorry for misleading you, TenTigers is correct.

[Gru Bianca]

the only person who ever claimed Ng Mui had anything to do with Tibetan White Crane is Staples, and he mis-read a Chinese text that said that Hing Duk (aka Sing Lung) studied ON MOI FAH STUMPS (as opposed to studing WITH NG MUI)

it's a goof right up there with our "clear" vs "green" character debate

Sorry to bother you, would you have by any chance the Chinese characters for Hing Duk?

Thank you

[TenTigers]

the only person who ever claimed Ng Mui had anything to do with Tibetan White Crane is Staples, and he mis-read a Chinese text that said that Hing Duk (aka Sing Lung) studied ON MOI FAH STUMPS (as opposed to studing WITH NG MUI)

it's a goof right up there with our "clear" vs "green" character debate


http://www.tibetankungfu.net/Hopgar%20history.htm

I wondered about that as well, but it's still up on David Chin's webpage, which is fairly recent.
Steve Richards' Lions Roar page has mention of Ng Mui as well.

what light can you shed on the short hand methods of Lama/Hop-Gar/TWC??

[Hendrik]

To seriously discuss this issue, one needs to go into real details. as I have proposed in the following.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=979484&postcount=3

If one goes that deep, then Hung Gar and Wing Chun are two different animals, however, until the level or the standard of TCMA rise , things are not that obvious and everything seems to be looking a like.

and also, with a continous of EXPLICIT mixing in the past 100 years between Hung Gar, Wing Chun, and other southern art. There might end up everything is the same somedays.

[lkfmdc]

Sorry to bother you, would you have by any chance the Chinese characters for Hing Duk?

Thank you

I am not in NYC, so doing stuff on computer is hard, but it is basicly "rising virtue"

[lkfmdc]

http://www.tibetankungfu.net/Hopgar%20history.htm

I wondered about that as well, but it's still up on David Chin's webpage, which is fairly recent.
Steve Richards' Lions Roar page has mention of Ng Mui as well.

what light can you shed on the short hand methods of Lama/Hop-Gar/TWC??

my bet is, the guy doing the web page just read Staples' book

Steve seems to collect info from all, so he probably picked up on Staple's version

The funny thing was, all those years ago, reading Staples book and scratching my head, then I am in SF and someone gave me this article, a photocopy, said it was the only thing circulating at the time, I read it, and I can tell you much of Staples book was taken from this, but he mistranslated a few things in glaring ways

[lkfmdc]

Ching Hoi (Qinghai) isn't a small village it is a PROVINCE

and Wong Yan Lam was never anywhere near it, he was in "Ching Wan Jih" or the "blessed cloud temple"

sort of sound the same, but NOT the same

[Gru Bianca]

I am not in NYC, so doing stuff on computer is hard, but it is basicly "rising virtue"

Thank you so very much for your courtesy, so if I understood well should be something on the line of... 升德?

Thank you

[Gru Bianca]

Thank you so very much for your courtesy, so if I understood well should be something on the line of... 升德?

Thank you

or perhaps 尚德？

[jdhowland]

the only person who ever claimed Ng Mui had anything to do with Tibetan White Crane is Staples, and he mis-read a Chinese text that said that Hing Duk (aka Sing Lung) studied ON MOI FAH STUMPS (as opposed to studing WITH NG MUI)

it's a goof right up there with our "clear" vs "green" character debate

Thanks for clearing that up! After, what...35 years? I have an answer as to why Staples and I share the same si-gung but seemed to have such different lineage stories. I never trusted the statement that Sing Lung was morphed into Ng Mui in Chinese legend. The time frame just wasn't right.

Be well.

John

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=TenTigers;979132]I find it intriguing that Fukien Bak Hok and Tibetan Bak Hok (Hop-Ga/Lama P'ai/Bak Hok P'ai) are from opposite sides of the spectrum and yet have similar short bridging techniques.QUOTE]

It makes me wonder if there was a general short-hand flavor of fighting arts in Fukien and Guangdong when these arts developed. Maybe influenced later, in some cases, by the big horses and long fists of the north.

I have no experience in Fukien White Crane, Hung Ga or Wing Chun, but when a Wing Chun friend saw my Hop Ga jin cheui "arrow punch" he said it was almost identical to his basic punch. Lama style short hands also include uppercuts, hooks, straight backfists, rabbit punches, elbow strikes and finger jabs found in lots of other systems.

jd

[ktkungfu]

How many forms in Hung Gar?