White Crane Boxing .... Internal?

[Minghequan]

Hello all,

I've been a member for a little while and although I don't post too often I am a fan of the forum and its approach to discussing the arts.

I'm a practitioner, researcher and seeker of the martial way which involves White Crane Boxing (in particular 鳴鶴拳 Minghequan or Calling Crane with elements of Feeding Crane Fist 食鶴拳 and Shaking Crane Fist 宿鶴拳).

For me, my involvement has lead me to believe (and practice) that White Crane Boxing is essentially an Internal art even though it does not seem to be listed as such with regards to the big three (Taiji, Bagua, Hsing-I).

What are other fellow members thoughts on this? Is White Crane Boxing to be considered and internal art it is own right? Or is it simply a matter of one's own personal approach?

[TenTigers]

I don't believe in "Internal" and "external" I feel that all arts are both if practiced correctly. Relaxation, proper alignment, power issueing from the dan-tien,correct breathwork, etc. What is not internal? Hard, stiff movements, depending on brute strength, not connected using whole body power? That's not simply external, it's crappy training.
"Internal," is just a label that Martial Snobs throw around to differentiate themselves form others. The ego is internal....

[Hendrik]

Internal has a wide range of definition for TCMA.

In today's language, Internal training basically means "implicit"
External training means " explicit."


Thus, one cannot see or have difficultice to notice what is Within, inward, implicit.
and one can see or more easily notice what is outside,outward, explicit.


So, Internal needs more specific definition to describe the system.


White Crane has lots of training which is "implicit" however are they train via stress or loosing up? how deep is that goes? starting from skin inward to breathing? to internal organs? to Zhen Qi? To shen?

Those are the elements needs to know to address the issue so that what one discuss is in the same class.


The level of this forum, I hope, will raise to that details because that is the sign of progress.

[Dragonzbane76]

I don't believe in "Internal" and "external" I feel that all arts are both if practiced correctly. Relaxation, proper alignment, power issueing from the dan-tien,correct breathwork, etc. What is not internal? Hard, stiff movements, depending on brute strength, not connected using whole body power? That's not simply external, it's crappy training.
"Internal," is just a label that Martial Snobs throw around to differentiate themselves form others. The ego in internal....
__________________

have to agree with this post. "internal" is just a term thrown around. Many preach it but in the end it comes down to how you train. any movement can be interpreted many different ways. for someone to say "well that's an internal movement" is like saying that vertical punch is an internal movement. no it's not it's just a vertical punch. how it's delivered is up to the practitioner.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't believe in "Internal" and "external" I feel that all arts are both if practiced correctly. Relaxation, proper alignment, power issueing from the dan-tien,correct breathwork, etc. What is not internal? Hard, stiff movements, depending on brute strength, not connected using whole body power? That's not simply external, it's crappy training.
"Internal," is just a label that Martial Snobs throw around to differentiate themselves form others. The ego in internal....

What he said.

[Hendrik]

I don't believe in "Internal" and "external" I feel that all arts are both if practiced correctly. Relaxation, proper alignment, power issueing from the dan-tien,correct breathwork, etc. What is not internal? Hard, stiff movements, depending on brute strength, not connected using whole body power? That's not simply external, it's crappy training.
"Internal," is just a label that Martial Snobs throw around to differentiate themselves form others. The ego is internal....


That is too general and "sloppy"

IE: power issueing from the Dan -Tien itself doesnt mean a thing. This can be totally external hard stuffs which is totally different from internal.

[TenTigers]

Internal has a wide range of definition for TCMA.

In today's language, Internal training basically means "implicit"
External training means " explicit."


Thus, one cannot see or have difficultice to notice what is Within, inward, implicit.
and one can see or more easily notice what is outside,outward, explicit.


So, Internal needs more specific definition to describe the system.


White Crane has lots of training which is "implicit" however are they train via stress or loosing up? how deep is that goes? starting from skin inward to breathing? to internal organs? to Zhen Qi? To shen?

Those are the elements needs to know to address the issue so that what one discuss is in the same class.


The level of this forum, I hope, will raise to that details because that is the sign of progress.

not for nothing Hendrick, but this too is in your own words,"sloppy."
You contstantly bring these terms and topics up, but you have never gone into any detail yourself.
So, perhaps you can also raise your level on this forum as well.

I believe we all would be interested to hear what you have to share on, "loosing up from the skin, inward to breathing, to internal organs, to Zhen Qi, to Shen."
It sounds like you have alot to offer this thread.

[Hendrik]

not for nothing Hendrick, but this too is in your own words,"sloppy."
You contstantly bring these terms and topics up, but you have never gone into any detail yourself.
So, perhaps you can also raise your level on this forum as well.

I believe we all would be interested to hear what you have to share on, "loosing up from the skin, inward to breathing, to internal organs, to Zhen Qi, to Shen."
It sounds like you have alot to offer this thread.



I pray for you to see what is a technical critics and not getting into ego reaction.

As for
"loosing up from the skin, inward to breathing, to internal organs, to Zhen Qi, to Shen."

Any real practicioner knows what it is, and that is not limited to myself here. Ask them what I mean.

[TenTigers]

Any real practicioner knows what it is, and that is not limited to myself here. Ask them what I mean.

(sigh...) That's what I was afraid was going to happen.....
are you sure you're not really HW108 in disguise?

[Hendrik]

(sigh...) That's what I was afraid was going to happen.....
are you sure you're not really HW108 in disguise?


ask properly and I am sure lots of high hands here will share?

[taai gihk yahn]

Any real practicioner knows what it is, and that is not limited to myself here. Ask them what I mean.
You critique Ten Tigers, and instead of getting defensive, he actually drops his ego and attempts to engage in a productive discussion by asking a sincere question; instead, you pretty much characterize it as an ego-reaction, and then employ your typical evasiveness when asked a direct question;

you seem to have not learned that when one critiques someone and then ducks a follow-up, one comes across as a bit of a jerk, and thereby impedes the desire of others to engage in meaningful interaction; and that is not an ego-based comment, that is a technical critique - I hope that you are able to understand it without your ego flaring up;

as for Rik's "question", you do understand that he is not asking you to explain it to him because he is ignorant - he is asking for your particular take on it, given that you brought it up, in the hopes of generating a dialogue; when you assume that he is ignorant, that demonstrates a particular bias on your part, which we have all seen here before; and which is truly unfortunate, because Rik is actually one of the few "high hands" on here, and you might do well to give what he writes a bit more consideration before dismissing it out of hand

[Lee Chiang Po]

(sigh...) That's what I was afraid was going to happen.....
are you sure you're not really HW108 in disguise?


I am having trouble containing myself here. Dude, I know you really did expect this. I have asked him I don't know how many times to explain what he was talking about, only to be told to ask a qualified teacher or some such. I think Hendrik reads a lot and watches too much utube. I don't think he really knows one way or another, but likes to repeat what he sees on utube or what he reads. He never makes sense, and I really do attempt to understand him. I am not talking about his use of the English, but that he talks in riddles and tries to sound like some Chinese philosipher. sp? If he would break down just once and go into a dialog of explanation using common terms rather than mumbo jumbo I would love to hear what he is talking about.

LCP

[Violent Designs]

I have been harsh toward Hendrik in the past, but I am really interested to hear what he has to say.

Detail wise, at least. I am all ears at this point, no judging or ego from me.

I am at crossroads in life and everything so, and basically just trying to absorb as much information as possible.

So Hendrik please explain in detail.

[Hendrik]

To have a serious discussion,
I would like to ask those So called High Hand to describe

How deep will their training be able to penetrate into the body? internal organs, to the Qi medirians, to the Shen ?

Since everyone seems to be a master, then I presume you all be able to answer the above questions in details and specific according your kung fu attainment level instead of guessing or some logical mind speculation.

Otherwise, what to discuss?

I refer the above posts as Generalized and "sloppy" because anyone who have started the true internal training will have to be able to answer the above. so, I expect the real deal description here in details and not generalization and sloppy.

IE: everyone said sink Qi to Dan Dien, how is that? in details, for there at least a few type of so called Sink Qi to Dan Dien, and some of them are even missed practice.

[Violent Designs]

I am definitely not a master. Just a beginner.

[Hendrik]

I am definitely not a master. Just a beginner.


Ok, let's just discuss something simple, such as lower abdorment breathing. How do you view that and what type of training do you have on that, and also how do you know where do you attain?


For me, lower abdorment breathing can have three mile stones and each of them have a signature one must attain or achive, if it was train properly.

The "proper" path alone will justify the outcome. Thus, from this very begining one can predict how deep the kung fu could penetrate. As it said, externally train the sinew, skin, and bone, internally train the Jing, Qi, and Shen. Not every type of breathing could effectively and efficiently train the Jing, Qi, and shen.

Thus, not every type of breathing training can reach the three mile stone.

Thus, Iron Wire, san chin, ..., no matter how much it was train is a different path to Taiji, emei 12 Zhuang......etc.


These are just beginers stuffs however lots love to argue because they are not aware of there is another level of depth which could produce different result instead of " oh, I have that too. " but never recognized the essential of what is going on.

[hungmunhingdai]

For me, my involvement has lead me to believe (and practice) that White Crane Boxing is essentially an Internal art even though it does not seem to be listed as such with regards to the big three (Taiji, Bagua, Hsing-I).



so how you practice your internal

[TenTigers]

Hendrick, I don't think anyone here is calling themselves a master, or a "high hand," certainly not I. (although I'm thankful/honored/embarrassed by the compliment:-) In fact, I feel my experience and knowledge is very limited.
I am only just scratching the surface, which is why I am interested in your responses, as you seem to have a great deal of experience in this area.
I would think that instead of bouncing back each query, you would actually want to give at least a basic explanantion.
Sometimes, I don't know what you are saying. Not so much as not having experienced something, but trying to understand the terms you use.
I understand too, that sometimes, there are no words to describe what you feel. That is like trying to describe what chocolate tastes like.
I can say,"Breathe into the dan-tien," but we know that the air goes into the lungs. But, we also know that putting your intention in your dan-tien, or your awareness/conciousness-(does it make sense to say mind?) Results in feeling your breath originating from dan-tien.
You can say,"Circulate the Hei through the small heavenly cycle," But again, some will say,"You cannot breathe through imaginary pathways, etc.." But only because one feels it, can he say it, while others are still scratching their heads.
The same thing goes for breathing through the skin, (although we do recognize the skin as an organ, and respiration occurs through the skin. I think I can thank Goldfinger for bringing that to my attention) or condensing it within the bones, or through the skin,directing into dan-tien.
My teacher once said, "Have your energy vibrate from the dan-tien, out to your hands." Wha??? Until your body starts pulsing and you feel it in your palms. "Sheer nonesense!" It makes absolutely no sense, and yet these are things that we can feel.
Can you describe, "bringing in the energy from the sun/moon into your middle dan-tien?" -probably not without sounding like a lunatic.
How do you describe intelligently, that "the form leads you. You don't do the form, the form does you.."
There are some things I have felt, but have no words, or terms to describe them. Some terms don't easily translate from Chinese to English.
So, in hopes of having a dialogue, there has to be a back and forth exchange.
I can also understand if some of this information is something that you have sacrificed long years for, and to just throw it all out there for any Tom, ****, or Harry to glean info from, is something you wouldn't want to do. I am the same way with some of what I have learned, as well as being admonished by my teachers.
But, we also know that someone cannot just,"pick it up."
However, it may resonate in some people who have experienced things and not have been able to recognize the experience. Sort of like a signpost.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Internal...external...blah, balh, blah...
How many times do we have to go over this?
Its getting old.
If someone wants to believe that internal arts will make you a jedi, great, all the "force" to them.

I know that if I was stuck in a car or under something weighting more than I could lift, I know who I would want there, and it's not the 150lbs Tai Chi Hippie doing slo mo moves to cultivate his chi !

[kfson]

Internal has a wide range of definition for TCMA.

In today's language, Internal training basically means "implicit"
External training means " explicit."


Thus, one cannot see or have difficultice to notice what is Within, inward, implicit.
and one can see or more easily notice what is outside,outward, explicit.


So, Internal needs more specific definition to describe the system.


White Crane has lots of training which is "implicit" however are they train via stress or loosing up? how deep is that goes? starting from skin inward to breathing? to internal organs? to Zhen Qi? To shen?

Those are the elements needs to know to address the issue so that what one discuss is in the same class.


The level of this forum, I hope, will raise to that details because that is the sign of progress.

Wouldn't "internal", as commonly characterized, be described as implicit and explicit?

[TenTigers]

Wouldn't "internal", as commonly characterized, be described as implicit and explicit?

well yeah, in English...

[Hendrik]

Wouldn't "internal", as commonly characterized, be described as implicit and explicit?

Nope, Nei Kung or "going internal" training is implicit. One can have similar external shape however the internal content is different.


IE:

We all can stand in a tree hugging post but what is train internally can be totally different. based on the intention, the Qi cultivation....etc. and thus, the out come can be totally different.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nope, Nei Kung or "going internal" training is implicit. One can have similar external shape however the internal content is different.


IE:

We all can stand in a tree hugging post but what is train internally can be totally different. based on the intention, the Qi cultivation....etc. and thus, the out come can be totally different.

Hey H, how much can you lift?

[kfson]

Nope, Nei Kung or "going internal" training is implicit. One can have similar external shape however the internal content is different.


IE:

We all can stand in a tree hugging post but what is train internally can be totally different. based on the intention, the Qi cultivation....etc. and thus, the out come can be totally different.

In Daoist nei gung, how can you have implicit and deny explicit?

[TenTigers]

In Daoist nei gung, how can you have implicit and deny explicit?
simply by definition-outward stillness, inward movement. Noi-gung in some cases, can have nothing to do with posture. There are certain things that are very real, very specific, yet cannot be explained verbally, only felt.

[kfson]

simply by definition-outward stillness, inward movement. Noi-gung in some cases, can have nothing to do with posture. There are certain things that are very real, very specific, yet cannot be explained verbally, only felt.

Substantial / Insubstantial?

[TenTigers]

well, the problem is that in these cases, words get in the way. What does Hendrick mean when he says implicit/explicit, what do you mean when you say substantial/insubstantial? What does chocolate taste like?

[Hendrik]

I can say,"Breathe into the dan-tien," but we know that the air goes into the lungs. ---------


The issue here is a direct translation that is problematic.





But, we also know that putting your intention in your dan-tien, or your awareness/conciousness-(does it make sense to say mind?) Results in feeling your breath originating from dan-tien. ---------


This is also problematic in general.

because steps are needed in this training. and also how to do it is a big issue here. In another words, it goes as detail as the amount of intention and holding of the intention matters.

A different "strenght" in intention produce heaven and earth different in result.




You can say,"Circulate the Hei through the small heavenly cycle," ------

Until one can evoke the Zhen Qi, and handle their intention properly with proper weighting syncronized with their loose-ness of their physical body, this circulate the Hei stuffs are very misleading and problematic which will cause trouble.






But again, some will say,"You cannot breathe through imaginary pathways, etc.." But only because one feels it, can he say it, while others are still scratching their heads. -------

This is because there is no legit Sifu to coach one.





The same thing goes for breathing through the skin, (although we do recognize the skin as an organ, and respiration occurs through the skin. ---------


This is attain after the the third mile stone of the lower abs breathing. anyone trying to imagine, and make this happen.....etc cant get there. It is an advance kung fu it is not up for everyone's reach.

However, there is a breathing through the skin type of visualization which is different then the above. So, one needs to be carefull on these different stuffs.




I think I can thank Goldfinger for bringing that to my attention) or condensing it within the bones, or through the skin,directing into dan-tien. ------

All these Visualization is trouble because in general one force it. and forcing is problem.



My teacher once said, "Have your energy vibrate from the dan-tien, out to your hands." Wha??? Until your body starts pulsing and you feel it in your palms. "Sheer nonesense!" It makes absolutely no sense, and yet these are things that we can feel. ------

1, if there is no process but giving an instruction like this is actually asking for trouble.

If there is a process, then one doesnt have to givin instruction like this because things come nature.

2, this type of training is called chassing or attaching to the sensation, a taboo for internal training.





Can you describe, "bringing in the energy from the sun/moon into your middle dan-tien?" -probably not without sounding like a lunatic. -------


For those who train in this type of Kung which absorbe energy from morning sun and mid night moon, they will easily tell you the process, and how to handling the intention, and when to do it after your physical body is well prepare for it and when not to do it... and what is the reaction.....etc.




How do you describe intelligently, that "the form leads you. You don't do the form, the form does you.." -----


Intelligent is the biggest trouble. one doesnt use intelligent to do training. in fact, one drop it.



There are some things I have felt, but have no words, or terms to describe them. ------

This is also a confusion. Dao is simple. it is not up for imagination. It is about let go and drop all the confusion.



Some terms don't easily translate from Chinese to English. ------

Thus, one needs to attain it and then said it in English. However, not everyone will understand because this is not an intellecture stuffs. One needs to reach the level to know. and to reach the level one needs the process.

Thus, Hung gar IRon wire and WCK SLT are different animal because they use different process.




So, in hopes of having a dialogue, there has to be a back and forth exchange. ----

Sure.


I can also understand if some of this information is something that you have sacrificed long years for, ------

I am not sacrified long years for. I was mislead like most of us. until I need for survival and I look at them closely . It is a totaly mess without meaning.

Then, I look for sifu who really knows and start from begining again.



However, it may resonate in some people who have experienced things and not have been able to recognize the experience. ---------

The public needs to know now lots of so called Internal are just fantasy. But the real internal is so real that is heal the internal organs and disease..... it works.

Peace

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does Chi Kung strength your bones? and if yes, how?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What chi kung exercises can I do to help me do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK_HsChcuJk&NR=1

200# itees at 175# Body weight.

[Hendrik]

Does Chi Kung strength your bones? and if yes, how?


Sure, the "washing bone marrow" kung will be able to do this.

[kfson]

Can the implicit exist in a vacuum devoid of the influence of the explicit.

If not, what is the relationship?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure, the "washing bone marrow" kung will be able to do this.

Please explain how it does that.

[Hendrik]

What chi kung exercises can I do to help me do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK_HsChcuJk&NR=1

200# itees at 175# Body weight.



1, it is not an exercise but a full training.

2, IMHO, The jade belt gong type of stuffs will do it.
http://www.shaolins.com/encyclopedia/

[Hendrik]

Please explain how it does that.

One needs a sifu on this,
It is an involve and serious process. Some still teaching it in China.

[Hendrik]

Can the implicit exist in a vacuum devoid of the influence of the explicit.

If not, what is the relationship?



how is your sleeping posture (explicit) influence your dream (implicit)?

[sanjuro_ronin]

One needs a sifu on this,
It is an involve and serious process. Some still teaching it in China.

I am not asking how to DO it, I am asking how it DOES it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

1, it is not an exercise but a full training.

2, IMHO, The jade belt gong type of stuffs will do it.
http://www.shaolins.com/encyclopedia/

So, you are suggesting that calisthtics type strength training will do what specialized strength training does?

How long would it take? 1 year? 2 years 3 years?

[Hendrik]

So, you are suggesting that calisthtics type strength training will do what specialized strength training does?

How long would it take? 1 year? 2 years 3 years?



According to the instruction, it takes two years.


玉带功，又名弥陀功，属阳刚之劲，兼阴柔之气。即用两臂之力，回环相扣而抱持之，亦称乾坤圈。

练法：先时择一合把之树，身立其下，用两臂抱住树身，两手合盘式互相牢扣，然后运力紧紧抱持之，时作上提之 势。日数行之，每次以力尽为止。如是一二年，臂力渐充，抱持时只须略一震撼，则树身摇摇欲折，枝叶瑟瑟下落 。但此犹初步，尚不足以胜人，必须至能将此树连根拔起，然后再易以约四五百斤重之石鼓或石轴，依法习之。石 重而滑泽，抱持之最易脱落，须坚持练习一二年，始能平抱石鼓，行走自如。至此实力固已充盈，抱持紧扣之力亦 达极点，全功乃成。

若以之抱持人体，则当者少有不骨断而立殒者。相传昔有盲童欲报父仇，徒以目盲不能学习武事，痛哭于途，适遇 少林寺朝元和尚，询知其故，传以此法。后盲童卒以是报父仇。由此言之，玉带功则是少林寺之秘授 了。

[sanjuro_ronin]

According to the instruction, it takes two years.


玉带功，又名弥陀功，属阳刚之劲，兼阴柔之气。即用两臂之力，回环相扣而抱持之，亦称乾坤圈。

练法：先时择一合把之树，身立其下，用两臂抱住树身，两手合盘式互相牢扣，然后运力紧紧抱持之，时作上提之 势。日数行之，每次以力尽为止。如是一二年，臂力渐充，抱持时只须略一震撼，则树身摇摇欲折，枝叶瑟瑟下落 。但此犹初步，尚不足以胜人，必须至能将此树连根拔起，然后再易以约四五百斤重之石鼓或石轴，依法习之。石 重而滑泽，抱持之最易脱落，须坚持练习一二年，始能平抱石鼓，行走自如。至此实力固已充盈，抱持紧扣之力亦 达极点，全功乃成。

若以之抱持人体，则当者少有不骨断而立殒者。相传昔有盲童欲报父仇，徒以目盲不能学习武事，痛哭于途，适遇 少林寺朝元和尚，询知其故，传以此法。后盲童卒以是报父仇。由此言之，玉带功则是少林寺之秘授 了。

You've done this I take it?

[Hendrik]

I am not asking how to DO it, I am asking how it DOES it.


Shut down the reproduction system to gain energy, evoke the Zhen Qi, use massage and intention to lead the Zhen Qi to activate the bone marrow and starts its rebuild /strenghten activity.

[Hendrik]

You've done this I take it?


Try some to get a feel on the mechanics which benifit me alots but didnt do the whole process .

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shut down the reproduction system to gain energy, evoke the Zhen Qi, use massage and intention to lead the Zhen Qi to activate the bone marrow and starts its rebuild /strenghten activity.

And bones get stronger that way?

[Hendrik]

And bones get stronger that way?

Yup, senior people are using it to heal the heap join fracture......etc.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c04eb7d0100bs5k.html

[bawang]

jade belt is a yang external excercise where you train the bear hug
its a weight lifting excercise not qigong

"hug a stone drum weighing 400 to 500 pounds lift it up and move around"

[Hendrik]

jade belt is a yang external excercise where you train the bear hug
its a weight lifting excercise not qigong

"hug a stone drum weighing 400 to 500 pounds and move around"



What is Qigong? what is not Qigong?


Your opinion is great.

However, let's look at what it is according to the ancient script without jump gun.

It said,


玉带功，又名弥陀功，属阳刚之劲，兼阴柔之气。

Jade belt gong or Amitaba Gong, belongs to Yang/hard power, with Yin/soft's Qi.

练法：先时择一合把之树，身立其下，用两臂抱住树身，.....

Training method: select a tree which is fit to be hug. hug the tree....



IMHO.

Jumping gun is the biggest problem in this modern world and the biggest cause of one never attain the result. Jumping gun also is the biggest misleading to others leading to " never have attain the power but claim one attain to it." at the end everyone knows how to qoute books partially but clueless on what is it and thus not be able to use it.

[bawang]

this method trains the bear hug and the suplex "zhaoyang shuai" , "soft" as in wrestling.

the beginner pre training is hugging a tree and trying to pull it out with all your power. there is no qi involved


funny how you lie every sentence and say i dont know.
there is a excercise left out from the shaolin "manual". its done between the two stages. tell me what it is smart guy.


i know you are frantically searching for it on chinese google. dont bother, its not there.

[Hendrik]

this method trains the bear hug and the suplex "zhaoyang shuai" , "soft" as in wrestling.

the beginner pre training is hugging a tree and trying to pull it out with all your power. there is no qi involved


funny how you lie every sentence and say i dont know.
there is a excercise left out from the shaolin "manual". its done between the two stages. tell me what it is smart guy.


i know you are frantically searching for it on chinese google. dont bother, its not there.


you like to make alots of assumption. then when your issue was pointed out you start attacking me as " You lie every senstence". hahaha



The full description of the process is as the following thus no one needs to search for anything, anyone can read it, big deal for your secret exercise. Who cares.


玉带功，又名弥陀功，属阳刚之劲，兼阴柔之气。即用两臂之力，回环相扣而抱持之，亦称乾坤圈。

练法：先时择一合把之树，身立其下，用两臂抱住树身，两手合盘式互相牢扣，然后运力紧紧抱持之，时作上提之 势。日数行之，每次以力尽为止。如是一二年，臂力渐充，抱持时只须略一震撼，则树身摇摇欲折，枝叶瑟瑟下落 。但此犹初步，尚不足以胜人，必须至能将此树连根拔起，然后再易以约四五百斤重之石鼓或石轴，依法习之。石 重而滑泽，抱持之最易脱落，须坚持练习一二年，始能平抱石鼓，行走自如。至此实力固已充盈，抱 持紧扣之力亦 达极点，全功乃成。

若以之抱持人体，则当者少有不骨断而立殒者。相传昔有盲童欲报父仇，徒以目盲不能学习武事，痛 哭于途，适遇 少林寺朝元和尚，询知其故，传以此法。后盲童卒以是报父仇。由此言之，玉带功则是少林寺之秘授 了。


Also, as my reply

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=979907&postcount=34


it catagory under Shaolin 72 skills in

http://www.shaolins.com/encyclopedia/

-----------------------------------------
Chapter 3 Illustration of Shaolin 72 skills 141

1. Iron Arm Gong 141
2. Pai Da Gong 143
3. Tie Sao Zhou Gong 144
4. Zu She Gong 147
....
20. Jade belt Gong 173

-------------------------------------------


What Qigong? what is Qigong? what is not Qigong? Can you read ? can you discuss like a rational human being?

what are you contributing? to make others more clear or making it confusing? -- in the first post you jump gun on process, then your said there is a excercise left out. it is this type of stuffs which screw others big time.


if you like to discuss and have something to add to help other please share. otherwise, what is the point?

[bawang]

lol couldnt find the super duper secret part on baike.com?
the middle process is doing squats with stone weights
weight lifting

this is a common northern external excercise and it has NOTHING to do with qi.

im contributing by saying i actually learned this gong and you are just spitting dog sh1t from some pdf you downloaded on the internet.

dont talk about what you dont know, keep to your wing chun 水贼乱拳

[Hendrik]

lol couldnt find the super duper secret part on baike.com?
the middle process is doing squats with stone weights
weight lifting

im contributing by saying i actually learned this gong and you are just spitting dog sh1t from some pdf you downloaded on the internet.

this is a common northern external excercise and it has NOTHING to do with qi. there is no supplementary qigong.



according to you , sure.

Who care what you made up to boost your ego? I dont.

[Hendrik]

keep to your wing chun 水贼乱拳


What is the point to insult Wing Chun as 水贼乱拳 Pirate's chaos martial art?

It shows your true color and true intention of posting isnt it?

[bawang]

my intention is i see u copy and pasting random sh1t from that internet ebook shaolin secret 72 arts pdf and pretending to know kung fu, and i find it offensive
u got caught red handed. 直娘贼

if lifting 500 pound stone weights is internal then karate must be the most internal martial art in the world

[Hendrik]

my intention is i see u copy and pasting random sh1t from that internet ebook shaolin secret 72 arts pdf and pretending to know kung fu, and i find it offensive
u got caught red handed. 直娘贼

if lifting 500 pound stone weights is internal then karate must be the most internal martial art in the world



With you taking yourself as the top of the world certainly you can draw this conclusion.

and I wonder do you know how to read without blind by your own thoughts or ego noise.


So what is Qigong? what is not Qigong? what is hard Qigong? what is internal art?

[hungmunhingdai]

For me, my involvement has lead me to believe (and practice) that White Crane Boxing is essentially an Internal art even though it does not seem to be listed as such with regards to the big three (Taiji, Bagua, Hsing-I).



still waiting - you started this topic, tell us how you practice internal :confused:

[Minghequan]

Sorry, very busy this time of the year.

I guess it comes down to different things to different people. My understanding is this: if your qi/yi or intention is ahead of your movement/strength, then this is internal martial art.

Usually yourself will feel the hands are light while others feel heavy.

I'm no "X spurt" ("X" is an unknown factor and "Spurt" is a drip under pressure!), just a seeker.

Guys lets not get too banged up over what constitutes internal or external as it will be different for different folks. I am more interested in your feeling and views over the possibility that White Crane may be considered to be a soft, fluid , intent driven internal art.

No need for fighting over the subject.

[taai gihk yahn]

No need for fighting over the subject.
lol, you've obviously mistaken this for a thread about White Crane...

[bawang]

sorry for dereailing your thread. i just wanted to point out that guy was copy and pasting.

the answer to your question is, its simple. if you are good enough, you say white crane is internal, then it is internal. if anyone disagrees so what? punch them

but i reall think all this categorizing doesnt matter at all. it wont make any difference and it wont make you any better, maybe attract more hippy students

[Hendrik]

sorry for dereailing your thread. i just wanted to point out that guy was copy and pasting.





Sure, a form mimic-ter thinking he knows it all. hahaha




Seriously,
You are too naive and clueless on the details. sure you might learn something on what you call the exercise. for me those are exercise not Gong with some depth.

however you are clueless on why Jade belt Gong starts with hugging tree and that is why I purposely emphasis on tree hugging.

to stop your jump gun weight lifting and your so called secret exercise which I careless.


evidentally,
You missed the important keys and thus it also said something about your kung fu mastery
level.


If you have practice this type of art properly, do you hug tree? why tree hugging is necessary?

[hungmunhingdai]

if your qi/yi or intention is ahead of your movement/strength, then this is internal martial art.

Usually yourself will feel the hands are light while others feel heavy.






Internal art = intention ahead of movement

External art = ??? / no intention ahead of movement ???

A state of mushin/wuxin ???

Some say, this is ultimate “internal art” – no intent, no mind, no ying no yang.

So what is “internal” White Crane, no “intent” White Crane???

Next time, busy, don't start topic for discussion :eek:

[Hendrik]

Internal art = intention ahead of movement ------------


Intention lead Qi, Qi transport physical movement = internal art.

However, the is an issue or varien here on what type of Qi. It real Qi or dynamic tension type. That get into soft or hard art. and how deep the penetration of intention can get.






External art = ??? / no intention ahead of movement ??? -----------


Intention DIRECTLY lead physical movement = External art.






A state of mushin/wuxin ???

Some say, this is ultimate “internal art” – no intent, no mind, no ying no yang. -----



Mushin is silence or stillness.

This is the "body".

While when there is an "application" or creation, Intention is needed and at that point Ying and Yang surface.


One needs to get to Stillness to cultivate the Qi and Shen, where Shen is the one power Yee/Intention. To strong an Yee will consume Qi.

However, one needs the Intention to begin the creation or application.


"body " and "application" are the two faces of a coin.
Body = stillness
Application = Dynamic.

[TenTigers]

External art = ??? / no intention ahead of movement ??? -----------


Intention DIRECTLY lead physical movement = External art.


Can you have physical movement without Ch'i?
Yi leads Ch'i, leads movement.
Are they inseperable?
All treatises on Ch'i-gung say they are not. If you say they are, then please explain. If not, then we are back where we started-in actuality there is no external.

[Hendrik]

Can you have physical movement without Ch'i? ----

all physical movement have Qi involved.

However, if you tense your hand before you move it, then that is cutting off / put resistance in certain qi path causing stagnation of flow or stopping a big part of the flow.


To go the Yi leads qi, qi transport the movement path, one needs to have a open path for the Qi before using the Yi to direct it. and that called for a loose physical body.





Yi leads Ch'i, leads movement. Are they inseperable? ------



Yi leads qi , qi leads movement , needs to be trained,

Yi not neccesary lead Qi.

Qi not neccesary lead movement.



Too heavy of Yi make Qi stuck for it tense the body.

Without training Qi doesnt transport the movement.


if you think your Yi can lead Qi, then can you use your Yi to direct your Qi to heal your internal organs? Some one sure can after long term of training. But not the untrain.


If you think your Qi always transport movement, then when you doing a movement forcefully and feel out of breath, there your qi is lag behind or even stagnated eventhough your movement is still continous.



It is not as trivial or simple as the general thoughts.

once the Zhen Qi surface,

with just a simple/lite yi instruction the limb can move itself.

That is Yi lead Qi, Qi transport the body with minimum effort or "effortless" not tensing at all, it just flow with very feather lite weight.




All treatises on Ch'i-gung say they are not. If you say they are, then please explain. If not, then we are back where we started-in actuality there is no external. ------


what is " all treatises on Qigung?" what does it says? or what is your intepretation? what is your own experience? what type of Qigung are you practice?

unless one really have training ; intellecturized Qigong saying is problematic.

Internal or external is clearly differentitate for those who have solid soft type of internal training. They are by nature two different type of things. those who have reached Yi lead Qi and Qi transport body knows clearly.

[IronWeasel]

this method trains the bear hug and the suplex "zhaoyang shuai" , "soft" as in wrestling.

the beginner pre training is hugging a tree and trying to pull it out with all your power. there is no qi involved


funny how you lie every sentence and say i dont know.
there is a excercise left out from the shaolin "manual". its done between the two stages. tell me what it is smart guy.


i know you are frantically searching for it on chinese google. dont bother, its not there.



LOlz!

Monehs for Bawang.

[kfson]

There may be some confusion about "physical". Some may be describing the physical as "clumsy delivery of force".

But, since all matter is the manifestation of the opposing forces of this and that, so is the body.
Is not the mind the director of the delivery of chi?
Is not the conduit of the delivery a manifestation of this and that? Is not the highest physical aim to bring the body to be the universe? Is this not the cultivation of the practitioner from the mind all the way to genetic strands? Does not the practitioner become non-separated from the universe during the cultivation process? Is not Tai Chi one of the many forms of this cultivation process?


How can chi not be associated with the physical including the position in which one sleeps?

[Hendrik]

There may be some confusion about "physical". Some may be describing the physical as "clumsy delivery of force".


Sure, until one sees what it is all the intellectual understanding doesnt mean much.




But, since all matter is the manifestation of the opposing forces of this and that, so is the body.

This is an intellectual statement using a man made model. however, does it means anything?




Is not the mind the director of the delivery of chi?

What is mind? what is thoughts? what is intention? What is awareness? without all these being clear. one always stuck in the intellecture realm where no real action result.




Is not the conduit of the delivery a manifestation of this and that?

Again, what good is talked about manifestation of this and that and conduit where it really means nothing in real life?

IE: will all the intellecture speculation
make possible for one to heal one's common cold Via using Yi To direct Qi ?
or still one doesnt know what to do and how to do it?

Similar to a college student who only read about farming from books without actually farming. and when s/he goes live in a farm and farming is needed nothing can be done.




Is not the highest physical aim to bring the body to be the universe?

Another New Age intellecture deal. Sounds great but go no where. and even misleading.








Is this not the cultivation of the practitioner from the mind all the way to genetic strands?


again intellecture farming ideas which doesnt mean anything when one needs to farm.




Does not the practitioner become non-separated from the universe during the cultivation process?


Great speculation away from the reality.







Is not Tai Chi one of the many forms of this cultivation process?


What needs to be cultivate? to become what?






How can chi not be associated with the physical including the position in which one sleeps?


What is Qi? can you evoke it? play with it? touch it ? hold on it?





You see, no offend, once upon a time I am like you too. But these are all useless speculation which most of the time we fantasy via these speculation there is a short cut to become as good as Bruce Lee.



On the other hand, things are not as simple as some called the Jade Belt Gong exercise and weight lifting....etc. Those are just very surface. a critical issue for training these type of stuffs is how to do it right so that no internal damage cause by jumping step. some just over simplified and mimic-ing.


The middle way is to know what it is and decide for oneself what one is needed. IMHO

[kfson]

Sure, until one sees what it is all the intellectual understanding doesnt mean much.




This is an intellectual statement using a man made model. however, does it means anything?





What is mind? what is thoughts? what is intention? What is awareness? without all these being clear. one always stuck in the intellecture realm where no real action result.




Again, what good is talked about manifestation of this and that and conduit where it really means nothing in real life?

IE: will all the intellecture speculation
make possible for one to heal one's common cold Via using Yi To direct Qi ?
or still one doesnt know what to do and how to do it?

Similar to a college student who only read about farming from books without actually farming. and when s/he goes live in a farm and farming is needed nothing can be done.




Another New Age intellecture deal. Sounds great but go no where. and even misleading.









again intellecture farming ideas which doesnt mean anything when one needs to farm.





Great speculation away from the reality.








What needs to be cultivate? to become what?






What is Qi? can you evoke it? play with it? touch it ? hold on it?





You see, no offend, once upon a time I am like you too. But these are all useless speculation which most of the time we fantasy via these speculation there is a short cut to become as good as Bruce Lee.



On the other hand, things are not as simple as some called the Jade Belt Gong exercise and weight lifting....etc. Those are just very surface. a critical issue for training these type of stuffs is how to do it right so that no internal damage cause by jumping step. some just over simplified and mimic-ing.


The middle way is to know what it is and decide for oneself what one is needed. IMHO


Your answers are in the same "Pasture" as my questions.

[kfson]

Sure, until one sees what it is all the intellectual understanding doesnt mean much.




This is an intellectual statement using a man made model. however, does it means anything?





What is mind? what is thoughts? what is intention? What is awareness? without all these being clear. one always stuck in the intellecture realm where no real action result.




Again, what good is talked about manifestation of this and that and conduit where it really means nothing in real life?

IE: will all the intellecture speculation
make possible for one to heal one's common cold Via using Yi To direct Qi ?
or still one doesnt know what to do and how to do it?

Similar to a college student who only read about farming from books without actually farming. and when s/he goes live in a farm and farming is needed nothing can be done.




Another New Age intellecture deal. Sounds great but go no where. and even misleading.









again intellecture farming ideas which doesnt mean anything when one needs to farm.





Great speculation away from the reality.








What needs to be cultivate? to become what?






What is Qi? can you evoke it? play with it? touch it ? hold on it?





You see, no offend, once upon a time I am like you too. But these are all useless speculation which most of the time we fantasy via these speculation there is a short cut to become as good as Bruce Lee.



On the other hand, things are not as simple as some called the Jade Belt Gong exercise and weight lifting....etc. Those are just very surface. a critical issue for training these type of stuffs is how to do it right so that no internal damage cause by jumping step. some just over simplified and mimic-ing.


The middle way is to know what it is and decide for oneself what one is needed. IMHO

What is mind? what is thoughts? what is intention? What is awareness? without all these being clear. one always stuck in the intellecture realm where no real action result.

When does something become clear? And why should it?
What is action?
____

what good is talked about manifestation of this and that and conduit where it really means nothing in real life?

What is real life? What is real? What is life? Why should life be real?

___

You see, no offend, once upon a time I am like you too. But these are all useless speculation which most of the time we fantasy via these speculation there is a short cut to become as good as Bruce Lee.

You are very good at seeing "real life".

___

The middle way is to know what it is and decide for oneself what one is needed.

Long haired, dirty, hippy freak. Go back to Hate Ashboory where you belong.

[Hendrik]

Long haired, dirty, hippy freak. Go back to Hate Ashboory where you belong.



It is always sad to not be able to communicate due to ego protection.

[Hardwork108]

Hello all,

I've been a member for a little while and although I don't post too often I am a fan of the forum and its approach to discussing the arts.

I'm a practitioner, researcher and seeker of the martial way which involves White Crane Boxing (in particular 鳴鶴拳 Minghequan or Calling Crane with elements of Feeding Crane Fist 食鶴拳 and Shaking Crane Fist 宿鶴拳).

For me, my involvement has lead me to believe (and practice) that White Crane Boxing is essentially an Internal art even though it does not seem to be listed as such with regards to the big three (Taiji, Bagua, Hsing-I).

What are other fellow members thoughts on this? Is White Crane Boxing to be considered and internal art it is own right? Or is it simply a matter of one's own personal approach?

What I know about this style indicates that it is a very internal style. The vibrating palm and the upper body "shaking"/vibrating" are external manifestations of this style's distinct internal training. These and other techniques will not work if they are trained in an external manner.

This fact would explain why many people who train their "kung fu" in only external manner become disillusioned with the results and go on to an irrelevant cross training path to fill in the "gaps" and make their TCMA more functional.

The fact is that many of the kung fu's external techniques become useless if there is no internal force build up (including proper relaxation, flow, body unity, intention, etc.).

HW108

[Kansuke]

The two year grandmaster still trying to parade around as something he is not and will never be.

[TenTigers]

What I know about this style indicates that it is a very internal style. The vibrating palm and the upper body "shaking"/vibrating" are external manifestations of this style's distinct internal training. These and other techniques will not work if they are trained in an external manner.

This fact would explain why many people who train their "kung fu" in only external manner become disillusioned with the results and go on to an irrelevant cross training path to fill in the "gaps" and make their TCMA more functional.

The fact is that many of the kung fu's external techniques become useless if there is no internal force build up (including proper relaxation, flow, body unity, intention, etc.).

HW108
Good points. HW108, allow me to introduce you to Hendrick.
Hendrick-this is HW108.
Now that you two have been formally introduced, you may begin a beautiful relationship.
"When the student is ready, the Master will appear."

Well! I've done my good deed for the day. Let's see, the sun is shining, the snow is fresh, the air is crisp. I think I'll go to yum-cha. My work is done here.

[Dragonzbane76]

Good points. HW108, allow me to introduce you to Hendrick.
Hendrick-this is HW108.
Now that you two have been formally introduced, you may begin a beautiful relationship.
"When the student is ready, the Master will appear."

Well! I've done my good deed for the day. Let's see, the sun is shining, the snow is fresh, the air is crisp. I think I'll go to yum-cha. My work is done here.

is it safe to put people like that into groups? i'm mean look what happened in waco.

[Hendrik]

Good points. HW108, allow me to introduce you to Hendrick.
Hendrick-this is HW108.
Now that you two have been formally introduced, you may begin a beautiful relationship.
"When the student is ready, the Master will appear."

Well! I've done my good deed for the day. Let's see, the sun is shining, the snow is fresh, the air is crisp. I think I'll go to yum-cha. My work is done here.



I have answered you question seriously and honestly according to TCMA IMA cultivation and now how do you threat me?

[taai gihk yahn]

Good points. HW108, allow me to introduce you to Hendrick.
Hendrick-this is HW108.
Now that you two have been formally introduced, you may begin a beautiful relationship.
"When the student is ready, the Master will appear."

Well! I've done my good deed for the day. Let's see, the sun is shining, the snow is fresh, the air is crisp. I think I'll go to yum-cha. My work is done here.

yum-cha! yum-cha! yum-cha!

actually, maybe I'll take the fam to Orient or Fortune Wheel tomorrow morning...

[taai gihk yahn]

I have answered you question seriously and honestly according to TCMA IMA cultivation and now how do you threat me?

by introducing you to HW? you consider that a threat? hmmm...

[Hardwork108]

by introducing you to HW? you consider that a threat? hmmm...

I believe that Hendrik found the tone of TenTiger's post offensive. Or perhaps he found his post to be off-topic?

[TenTigers]

No, I think Hendrick's sense of humor is very wry. (dry,witty, and ironic)
Since many don't catch what he's saying when he's serious, it's even harder to tell when he's joking. ;)

[Minghequan]

While I find the back and forth here interesting, it does not address the subject of this thread .... is White Crane able to be considered internal in its practice and training?

Let look to the He Quan Quan Jue (Crane Fist, Fist Poems) maybe they hold a clue:

Jing er daidong wei zhi yu li, dong ji daijing wei zhi fengli, fengyu renzhen shi pozu. Shou zu judong, shenchen jing xing yu zhi shi, qi chen dantian quanshen daidong xingyu zhi shi:

A gentle move is likened to a rain of force, a move with gentleness is likened to a wind of force,
Rain and wind forces combined will break the target the hands and legs move simulataneously, the body relaxes like falling rain with the energy streaming from the sky, the entire body moving as falling rain.

Unmoving (outside) yet moving (inside) is the power of the rain (Yu li), moving (outside) but still (inside) is the power of the wind (Feng li). Practice diligently wind and rain (Feng, Yu) to break through (refers to attack and footwork, swaying or standing still). Moving the hand and foot, the body uses rain (Yu). Chi sinks down to Dan tien, the entire body uses rain (Yu).

Gangrou xiangji shi zhengfa, xushifenming, wanwu yi shi:

Tenderness simulates a positive method, distinct enough with no loss.

Hardness (Gang) corresponding with softness (Rou) is the correct method, make clear of false and real attacks (real attack or feint), do not miss one attack in then thousand attacks.

Tun tu fu chen jun xu ji, gangrou xiang ji ding xinshen:

Suspend and relax your body, with tenderness directed towards your heart and spirit.

The student must remember swallowing (Tun), spitting (Tu), sinking (Chen), floating (Fu), hardness (Gang) corresponding with softness (Rou) and calm and steady your spirit.

Hendrik, have you studied any form of White Crane?

[Hendrik]

While I find the back and forth here interesting, it does not address the subject of this thread .... is White Crane able to be considered internal in its practice and training?

Let look to the He Quan Quan Jue (Crane Fist, Fist Poems) maybe they hold a clue:

Jing er daidong wei zhi yu li, dong ji daijing wei zhi fengli, fengyu renzhen shi pozu. Shou zu judong, shenchen jing xing yu zhi shi, qi chen dantian quanshen daidong xingyu zhi shi:

A gentle move is likened to a rain of force, a move with gentleness is likened to a wind of force,
Rain and wind forces combined will break the target the hands and legs move simulataneously, the body relaxes like falling rain with the energy streaming from the sky, the entire body moving as falling rain.

Unmoving (outside) yet moving (inside) is the power of the rain (Yu li), moving (outside) but still (inside) is the power of the wind (Feng li). Practice diligently wind and rain (Feng, Yu) to break through (refers to attack and footwork, swaying or standing still). Moving the hand and foot, the body uses rain (Yu). Chi sinks down to Dan tien, the entire body uses rain (Yu).

Gangrou xiangji shi zhengfa, xushifenming, wanwu yi shi:

Tenderness simulates a positive method, distinct enough with no loss.

Hardness (Gang) corresponding with softness (Rou) is the correct method, make clear of false and real attacks (real attack or feint), do not miss one attack in then thousand attacks.


Tun tu fu chen jun xu ji, gangrou xiang ji ding xinshen:

Suspend and relax your body, with tenderness directed towards your heart and spirit.

The student must remember swallowing (Tun), spitting (Tu), sinking (Chen), floating (Fu), hardness (Gang) corresponding with softness (Rou) and calm and steady your spirit.

Hendrik, have you studied any form of White Crane?


The itself is an evidence of internal, even thought some White Crane is using the Hard method.

Jing er daidong wei zhi yu li, dong ji daijing wei zhi fengli, fengyu renzhen shi pozu. Shou zu judong, shenchen jing xing yu zhi shi, qi chen dantian quanshen daidong xingyu zhi shi:



I think I have seen this one however
could you please post the chinese version? Translation difficult often.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;980605]While I find the back and forth here interesting, it does not address the subject of this thread .... is White Crane able to be considered internal in its practice and training?QUOTE]

Any definition of internal vs. external would be problematic. What are you trying to contrast by the terms?

For example:

Internal = taught inside a monastery vs. external = the same system taught outside the monastery to laypeople.

Internal = native Chinese traditions (Taoist/Confucianist) vs. external = foreign imported tradition (Buddhist)

Internal = intrinsic perception of the body vs. external = outward perception of the movement or its effect

Internal = those systems thought of by (non-practicing) scholars as being somehow better because they appear to show a balance of yin-yang qualities vs. external = systems emphasizing hard physical work

Minghequan, it has been noted by many on this forum that the (19th century?) convention of dividing styles into internal and external is not a valid concept. It did not come from us and we don't have to propagate it.

My take is simply that the external is the observed result of internal training. Internal is potential; external is manifest.

Somewhere here there is a thread about metaphors in which I related White Crane (Lama style) master Quentin Fong's analogy of a raw and a preserved egg representing the different types of training. Neither is the goal. The stone egg (wholly integrated intent/energy/movement) is the desired result.

jd

[Minghequan]

Posted by Hendrik:
The itself is an evidence of internal, even thought some White Crane is using the Hard method.

Jing er daidong wei zhi yu li, dong ji daijing wei zhi fengli, fengyu renzhen shi pozu. Shou zu judong, shenchen jing xing yu zhi shi, qi chen dantian quanshen daidong xingyu zhi shi:



I think I have seen this one however
could you please post the chinese version? Translation difficult often.

Yes it would seem so. I will have to look in my files to see if I can find the original Chinese version My view of White Crane is that is is a far more internal art in many ways than that of the big three .... I guess that it all comes down to one's own individual approach.

Hendrik, what other "Fist Poems" of White Crane do you know? Forgive me if I am wrong here but are you not a Wing Chun stylist? If so what do you make of the connection between White Crane Boxing and Wing Chun in its various forms?

[kfson]

It is always sad to not be able to communicate due to ego protection.

Happy new year Hippy Dippy!

Yes, Ego is cultivated as the foundation of the universe. I am a super duper, A number one, black belt in the secret style of Fist of Ego. We have short hair and clean feet. But, our breath reeks... it is the result of internal ego strengthening. So beware, every Fist of Ego practitioner is a certified barber... well at least certified.