Withdrawing "the Boys"

[kfson]

Can this be learned or are some blessed.

[TenTigers]

I bought myself a titanium groin cup. Took it out of my gym bag and put it on, and "The boys" drew up immediately. Those suckers get cold in the winter!

[Lucas]

you can learn that, or so im told ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

hum... what if they got up in there and then got stuck... that would probably be bad right?

[Fa Xing]

Cryptorchidism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptorchidism)

[taai gihk yahn]

Can this be learned or are some blessed.

did you have a "to do" list when you signed up or you just throw this stuff out at random?

[kfson]

did you have a "to do" list when you signed up or you just throw this stuff out at random?

A little birdie asks me, randomly random.

[Brule]

Just curious...why would it be a blessing to be able to do this?

[kfson]

Just curious...why would it be a blessing to be able to do this?

If you can pull "the Boys" up into your body, they can not be smashed by a kick or ripped off by a grab.

[Hardwork108]

If you can pull "the Boys" up into your body, they can not be smashed by a kick or ripped off by a grab.

And that is why some kung fu clans practice this methodology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WDGSUn44&NR=1

[This clip - through Grand Master David Ip's quick words - will also enlighten the "Olympic" weight training fraternity (together with their "decades" of "experience"....LOL) in this forum who believe that all kung fu uses, or should use, weight training to develop power.]

HW108

[Yum Cha]

Some people consider this a type of Hei Gung training, not fighting.

There are two exercises I know of, small primordial circle, big primordial circle, are the translations, more or less. I've also heard them as "Big Sun Day" and "Little Sun Day."

I'm told its closely associated with the 'kundalini fire' in yoga and other Indian stuff.

Inside, you clench up like you're holding back a major wiz, and pinching off a turd, lots in common with pilates concepts on sinking the navel and splitting the abs.

Breathe in focusing on your dan tien - filling it. Then you rotate the energy up your spine, through your head and back down your front. In sync, fill your lungs from diaphragm then ribs, then shoulders, and reverse back down. Easy.

Repeat. The repeat part is the tricky bit.

I believe the withdrawing of the testicles is a byproduct of this exercise, which some martial artists capitalised upon for its obvious benefits. Pak Mei was one, allegedly.

Personally, I'm just not that far into Hei Gung...I'm only 51.

[GeneChing]

Cryptorchidism is the word of the day. We could even start calling the trolls here Cryptorchi****s. :D

[goju]

man the wierd sh@t some of you people think of asking on here lol:D

[kfson]

Apparently this man could hide the boys:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HbDXyiSofCg/SAU0h7W-C4I/AAAAAAAAAHI/Cimmv7DsajI/S240/Wang_hawk.jpg
Wang Shujin

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know a few guys that can do it, no biggie it seems of you train it correctly.
Never seen ANY of them pull it off in a fight though so not sure how practical it is.

[Fa Xing]

Cryptorchidism is the word of the day. We could even start calling the trolls here Cryptorchi****s. :D

Thanks Gene, and we can thank the fact that I have to learn about this stuff because I'm a Human Bio major. :)

[Brule]

If you can pull "the Boys" up into your body, they can not be smashed by a kick or ripped off by a grab.

the time used to develop this "skill" could be better spent on more effecient techniques.

seriously, some of the crap people spend thier time on is beyond my understanding.

[TenTigers]

the time used to develop this "skill" could be better spent on more effecient techniques.

seriously, some of the crap people spend thier time on is beyond my understanding.

in some styles that do this, it is a byproduct of the training. It is not something that is an isolated practice, so it is not detracting from time spent developing other skills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

in some styles that do this, it is a byproduct of the training. It is not something that is an isolated practice, so it is not detracting from time spent developing other skills.

Ever seen anyone do it in a fight?

[kfson]

Ever seen anyone do it in a fight?

Haven't seen any naked kung fool fights or done any inspections.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Haven't seen any naked kung fool fights or done any inspections.

You need to move to Colombia

[kfson]

You need to move to Colombia

How about Peru? You know they have a large Chinese population there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How about Peru? You know they have a large Chinese population there.

Yeah, but for nude kung fu groin kicking, nothing beats Colombia, just ask HW8, LOL !

[Dragonzbane76]

he's shooting his new movie with Uki down there, titled "BAREBACK SPARTAN MOUNTAIN" :)

[kfson]

he's shooting his new movie with Uki down there, titled "BAREBACK SPARTAN MOUNTAIN" :)

All actors will be required to sport mustaches... to hide the stretch marks.

[Hardwork108]

Watch and listen(specially, Sanjuro)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WDGSUn44&NR=1

[taai gihk yahn]

Watch and listen(specially, Sanjuro)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WDGSUn44&NR=1

it's a good clip, and has been discussed on here at length; this is about as "authentic" as one can get in this particular tradition;

and while I am not in anyway disparaging his skill, I do think he does the viewer a disservice to assert that power generation has "nothing" to do w/muscle, and that it relies on "organs" and "tendons"; I just think that it's a gross oversimplification, and does not actually describe what is really going on;
fact is, if you move, if you generate power of any sort, you are using muscle - I would defy anyone who believes otherwise to simple hook up external EMG monitors and see if they can move without generating a signal;

however, what I think he is trying to articulate, and this is just my personal perspective, certainly I can't prove it, is that if you use your muscle according to so-called "internal" principles, then you are using them in a harmonized / unified manner, and that you are optimizing their contractile properties along w/the elastic recoil component of tendon, and along with the function of the breath (which requires coordination of both muscle and non-contractile elastic recoil to function optimally), and because of this unification of muscle w/all these things, you are able to respond to both ground reaction force and the force of your opponent in a "lively" manner, one that would not be possible if one's muscular system were contracting inappropriately; this, I believe, is why so much of the training focuses on proprioception - from static standing, to moving forms, to partnered drills: I believe that you are training the muscles to respond in a way that if more sensitive to the forces acting upon them, and matching those forces in a way to achieve a desired outcome;

[taai gihk yahn]

oh, and BTW - if u want to vountarilly pull up the testies, u need to train the cremaster muscles to go from purely reflexive to volitional, that's all;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremaster_muscle

[Hardwork108]

it's a good clip, and has been discussed on here at length; this is about as "authentic" as one can get in this particular tradition;
There is even more to it, believe me.


and while I am not in anyway disparaging his skill, I do think he does the viewer a disservice to assert that power generation has "nothing" to do w/muscle, and that it relies on "organs" and "tendons"; I just think that it's a gross oversimplification, and does not actually describe what is really going on;
fact is, if you move, if you generate power of any sort, you are using muscle - I would defy anyone who believes otherwise to simple hook up external EMG monitors and see if they can move without generating a signal;
I agree and of course no one can move without using their muscles but this lineage is notoriously (and understandably) secretive. So all you are going to get from them are hints. Those who have trained this system the way it was meant to be will know what he means. It is a question of emphasis and a particular way of doing so.


however, what I think he is trying to articulate, and this is just my personal perspective, certainly I can't prove it, is that if you use your muscle according to so-called "internal" principles, then you are using them in a harmonized / unified manner, and that you are optimizing their contractile properties along w/the elastic recoil component of tendon, and along with the function of the breath (which requires coordination of both muscle and non-contractile elastic recoil to function optimally), and because of this unification of muscle w/all these things, you are able to respond to both ground reaction force and the force of your opponent in a "lively" manner, one that would not be possible if one's muscular system were contracting inappropriately; this, I believe, is why so much of the training focuses on proprioception - from static standing, to moving forms, to partnered drills: I believe that you are training the muscles to respond in a way that if more sensitive to the forces acting upon them, and matching those forces in a way to achieve a desired outcome;

What you describe holds true for Chow Gar (up to a point) as well as some other none related internal kung fu styles and methodologies. It is just that Chow Gar, (together with Pak Mei, Dragon, etc , I am told)have their own distinct methodologies that are not going to be in any YouTube videos. However, there are hints to them in what certain Masters may publicly say. Of course, each MA-ist will interpret them in relation to their personal experience.

I believe that your take of it is pretty d@mn good for someone who has not practiced this style. Of course, that reflects a meeting point of different Internal approaches.:)

HW108

[Hardwork108]

oh, and BTW - if u want to vountarilly pull up the testies, u need to train the cremaster muscles to go from purely reflexive to volitional, that's all;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremaster_muscle

Pull up my testicles, when they have just dropped??? NO way....:D

[taai gihk yahn]

There is even more to it, believe me.
my sifu has an indirect relationship to this system;


I agree and of course no one can move without using their muscles but this lineage is notoriously (and understandably) secretive. So all you are going to get from them are hints. Those who have trained this system the way it was meant to be will know what he means. It is a question of emphasis and a particular way of doing so.
perhaps, but I think that he is also buying into / perpetuating a particular conceit on the part of "internalists", who seem to have this need to characterize what they do as being above such base methods as using muscle power - it's one that has rather deep roots, unfortunately; and I have experienced it before elsewhere; problem is, they can be clueless about anatomy and kinesiology: for example one person I knew, very high level bagua, tried to make his point about not using muscle power by having me feel his tricep while he held his arm out extended at 90˚ from his torso - he was like "look, no muscle power"; of course, I didn't have the heart to tell him that triceps have nothing to do with holding the arm out that way one it is already extended - but I suspect he was showing what he had been shown by his sifu...
anyway, I don't think that, just because they demonstrate skill in their given area of expertise that it should make an allowance for him being intellectually sloppy in another area - consider the inverse: someone with expert knowledge of neuromuscular physiology drawing incorrect conclusions about "internal" practice - how forgiving would you be of that...sword cuts both ways...the interesting thing then is, what happens when you come across someone high-level competent in both areas...


What you describe holds true for Chow Gar (up to a point) as well as some other none related internal kung fu styles and methodologies. It is just that Chow Gar, (together with Pak Mei, Dragon, etc , I am told)have their own distinct methodologies that are not going to be in any YouTube videos. However, there are hints to them in what certain Masters may publicly say. Of course, each MA-ist will interpret them in relation to their personal experience.
IMPE, one can talk about it all day and even reveal the "secrets" if one wanted to, but the reality is that the only way to really "get it" is to a) feel it; b) train it; but this is the case with most anything involving subjective skill; I personally think that it has more to do with keeping one's rice bowl intact...


I believe that your take of it is pretty d@mn good for someone who has not practiced this style. Of course, that reflects a meeting point of different Internal approaches.:)
IMPO, the body is the body, and nature functions according to the principle of regression towards the mean...

[Dragonzbane76]

lol... i'm sorry anyone that stands in the way of a kick or punch is stupid. eventually somewhere along the line your going to get hurt... and speaking of idiots... Kung fu is not the only art to have dumb A$$'s enlisted in there search for total stupidity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njxuc3M0oTQ

[Fa Xing]

Watch and listen(specially, Sanjuro)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WDGSUn44&NR=1

Whenever I sh!t like this, I am reminded of Yanagiryuken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Here he fought an MMA fighter, watch the first video then watch how will he did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMgVmFzBrus

[Kansuke]

There is even more to it, believe me.


Believe you?! HAHAHAHAHAAAAHhahahahahaaaaaahhaahaaaa!!!!

[Hardwork108]

Whenever I sh!t like this, I am reminded of Yanagiryuken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

Here he fought an MMA fighter, watch the first video then watch how will he did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMgVmFzBrus

I have seen those clips and they have nothing to do with the methodology described in my clip.

You guys should really study authentic kung fu before making your silly assumptions about any TCMA methodology that you are unfamiliar with!

[Hardwork108]

lol... i'm sorry anyone that stands in the way of a kick or punch is stupid. eventually somewhere along the line your going to get hurt... and speaking of idiots... Kung fu is not the only art to have dumb A$$'s enlisted in there search for total stupidity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njxuc3M0oTQ

Again, sorry to burst your knucklehead MA bubble but when you harden your body, you do it not to be able to stand and take punishment for half an hour, until your assailant is tired out, after which you push him down with your little finger....LOL.

Valid Iron Skills will enable you to stand heavy blows on various parts of your body. However, you don't just stand there.....LOL. Having most of your body fortified you need less areas to protect. You can actually "walk into" a strike and unbalance or even hurt your attacker and follow through by delivering a telling blow.

[Hardwork108]

my sifu has an indirect relationship to this system;
I understand but there are others with whom I have interacted with, who claim indirect and sometimes direct, relationship with this system but are however unfamiliar with the profoundness of its methodology.



perhaps, but I think that he is also buying into / perpetuating a particular conceit on the part of "internalists", who seem to have this need to characterize what they do as being above such base methods as using muscle power - it's one that has rather deep roots, unfortunately; and I have experienced it before elsewhere; problem is, they can be clueless about anatomy and kinesiology: for example one person I knew, very high level bagua, tried to [make his point about not using muscle power by having me feel his tricep while he held his arm out extended at 90˚ from his torso - he was like "look, no muscle power"; of course, I didn't have the heart to tell him that triceps have nothing to do with holding the arm out that way one it is already extended - but I suspect he was showing what he had been shown by his sifu...
anyway, I don't think that, just because they demonstrate skill in their given area of expertise that it should make an allowance for him being intellectually sloppy in another area - consider the inverse: someone with expert knowledge of neuromuscular physiology drawing incorrect conclusions about "internal" practice - how forgiving would you be of that...sword cuts both ways...the interesting thing then is, what happens when you come across someone high-level competent in both areas...
To be honest, I believe that there is more ignorance from the modern perspective towards the TCMA perspective than the other way round. After all, and many people here have pointed it out as well, many kung fu styles have been using weight training in their methodologies for a long time. "Modernists" identify with that, while they cannot figure out how some Internal TCMAs can create power and strength without weight training. Unfortunately, more often than not, the modernists will refer to such methodologies as fantasy or fake, just because they are clueless about the deeper side of such practices.



IMPE, one can talk about it all day and even reveal the "secrets" if one wanted to, but the reality is that the only way to really "get it" is to a) feel it; b) train it; but this is the case with most anything involving subjective skill; I personally think that it has more to do with keeping one's rice bowl intact...
I disagree. I say what I say because I have experienced the power of this system. I talk from my experience while others here make assumptions because they are really unfamiliar with the methodologies. It seems that ironically, it is them that are being unscientific about the whole issue.



IMPO, the body is the body, and nature functions according to the principle of regression towards the mean...
There is more to the body (and mind) than meets the eye. The Chinese discovered that fact a long time ago. I hope that "modern" science catches up during my lifetime.:)

[Hardwork108]

Believe you?! HAHAHAHAHAAAAHhahahahahaaaaaahhaahaaaa!!!!

Christ!
Poor David Ross, you first lost your b@lls and now you are losing your marbles....LOL!

[Dragonzbane76]

Valid Iron Skills will enable you to stand heavy blows on various parts of your body. However, you don't just stand there.....LOL. Having most of your body fortified you need less areas to protect. You can actually "walk into" a strike and unbalance or even hurt your attacker and follow through by delivering a telling blow.
doesn't really matter if you stand in front of an oncoming strike and just 'take' it then you are an idiot. You need to be able to withstand some amount of punishment but to intentionally take it is moronic and just plain dumb. You know there is this thing called a SIDE STEP which i've heard works pretty dam good. anyone that beats there body into something that absorbs pain and damage is just asking for a death sentence somewhere along the line. Hoodini died of pretty much the same thing, taking punches to the mid section. I could probably find other cases of people doing this and not fairing very well either.

[Boston Bagua]

Again, sorry to burst your knucklehead MA bubble but when you harden your body, you do it not to be able to stand and take punishment for half an hour, until your assailant is tired out, after which you push him down with your little finger....LOL.

Valid Iron Skills will enable you to stand heavy blows on various parts of your body. However, you don't just stand there.....LOL. Having most of your body fortified you need less areas to protect. You can actually "walk into" a strike and unbalance or even hurt your attacker and follow through by delivering a telling blow.

Here is a video of yours truly being hit by two kung fu brothers who are instructors in our system of Baguazhang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwBmA8r9v40

I do not stand around, but I move as well as I would be hitting back in a real situation.

Now HW, you talk about this but can you demo it like I can?

You seem to talk more than ever show anything.

[kfson]

lol... i'm sorry anyone that stands in the way of a kick or punch is stupid.

Here is one of those stupid (bagua) men:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HbDXyiSofCg/SAU0h7W-C4I/AAAAAAAAAHI/Cimmv7DsajI/S240/Wang_hawk.jpg
Wang Shujin

[taai gihk yahn]

I understand but there are others with whom I have interacted with, who claim indirect and sometimes direct, relationship with this system but are however unfamiliar with the profoundness of its methodology.
fair enough


To be honest, I believe that there is more ignorance from the modern perspective towards the TCMA perspective than the other way round.
personally, I find the ignorance equal in both directions: the majority of TCMA stylists are pretty much clueless about contemporary anatomy / physiology / kinesiology and so too most folks who are knowledgeable in those areas are unaware of TCMA in general; fact is, not too many people have the combination of training and experience that I have, and therefore are at a loss to provide the sorts of connections I am able to make between them;


After all, and many people here have pointed it out as well, many kung fu styles have been using weight training in their methodologies for a long time. "Modernists" identify with that, while they cannot figure out how some Internal TCMAs can create power and strength without weight training. Unfortunately, more often than not, the modernists will refer to such methodologies as fantasy or fake, just because they are clueless about the deeper side of such practices.
well, I believe I provided a pretty specific "modernist" explanation previously - and this explanation is based on a combination of my training / practice from a contemporary perspective and what has been my personal experience in the particular sort of "internal" methodology I practice (of course it's not the same as Chow Ga, but I was looking to the general similarities common to "internal" arts): so I am fairly confident that I can speak with some degree of relative authority in the matter; of course, I didn't go into as much detail as I could have, because when I have done so in the past, I get accused of self-aggrandizement; now, you (or others) may absolutely disagree with the content of my explanation, but if you do, then I would suggest, as I have always done, that you discuss it specifically, as opposed to making a generalized statement; of course, I realize that if one lacks training in both areas it could be difficult to do so, and one might therefore be tempted to engage in a more knee-jerk emotional response;



I disagree. I say what I say because I have experienced the power of this system. I talk from my experience while others here make assumptions because they are really unfamiliar with the methodologies. It seems that ironically, it is them that are being unscientific about the whole issue.
while I agree w/your point that the ability of someone to speak to a given methodology is limited to their experience, by that logic, given that you do not have training in the particular "modern" methodology in question, it would appear that you would not then have the capacity to refute it's ability to explain what is going on in internal practice, and how it can generate power without engaging in resistance training;
as for feeling the power of that system - I do not disagree w/this, having experienced power of this nature myself, and again, I can understand why this power can be generated without the use of resistance training utilized by other approaches


There is more to the body (and mind) than meets the eye. The Chinese discovered that fact a long time ago.
well, I don't disagree, but I'm not quite sure what your point is here and I don't find this concept inconsistent with anything I have stated


I hope that "modern" science catches up during my lifetime.:)
don't know what the smile is all about, but if you actually had training in "modern science", you might have a slightly different perspective as to the actual depth and breadth of knowledge that it encompasses...

[Lokhopkuen]

Can this be learned or are some blessed.

The inguinal canal would have to be open.

This could be bad for you if you were to breath wrong at a critical juncture:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

personally, I find the ignorance equal in both directions:
Fair enough.


the majority of TCMA stylists are pretty much clueless about contemporary anatomy / physiology / kinesiology and so too most folks who are knowledgeable in those areas are unaware of TCMA in general;
I agree. I also find that each side will acquire something that "works" for them and hence the methodology will become their benchmark.

Of course, that still does not mean that they can't learn from each other.



fact is, not too many people have the combination of training and experience that I have, and therefore are at a loss to provide the sorts of connections I am able to make between them;

I understand your background and that makes me understand your view of this subject matter and the links that you are able to make but I am sure that you are not implying that you are a kung fu master, either.


well, I believe I provided a pretty specific "modernist" explanation previously - and this explanation is based on a combination of my training / practice from a contemporary perspective and what has been my personal experience in the particular sort of "internal" methodology I practice (of course it's not the same as Chow Ga, but I was looking to the general similarities common to "internal" arts): so I am fairly confident that I can speak with some degree of relative authority in the matter; of course,
Chow Gar uses very DISTINCT methodologies. I suspect that other Internal styles have theirs. These differences are the factors that among other things distinguish these styles from each other.

I believe that through time and watering down of some of these systems the more profound aspects have gone "underground" (even more than before). Hence we are left with a lot of COMMON to all styles, internal practices that are more visible/available nowadays. These (and any so called scientific understanding of them) are the basis for any modern understanding of the Internals and hence limited.



I didn't go into as much detail as I could have, because when I have done so in the past, I get accused of self-aggrandizement;
IMHO, too much explanation and technical jargon can work against one in a forum that is not for specialists in that given area (human anatomy).



now, you (or others) may absolutely disagree with the content of my explanation, but if you do, then I would suggest, as I have always done, that you discuss it specifically, as opposed to making a generalized statement; of course, I realize that if one lacks training in both areas it could be difficult to do so, and one might therefore be tempted to engage in a more knee-jerk emotional response;
Well as far as kung fu goes then I do not generally discuss subjects I do not have personal experience in and I have been around long enough to know that the methodology I speak of is not at all common. Furthermore, the reasons were explained to me; I have seen the strength and power this produces and I will swear by it. Having said that, I am limited in what I can discuss on a public internet forum because of confidentiality reasons. Any one who has actually trained in an authentic TCMA school will appreciate that.


while I agree w/your point that the ability of someone to speak to a given methodology is limited to their experience, by that logic, given that you do not have training in the particular "modern" methodology in question, it would appear that you would not then have the capacity to refute it's ability to explain what is going on in internal practice, and how it can generate power without engaging in resistance training;
I see your point but then there are others here that follow the "modern" methodology, apparently with the good old, "decades of experience" tag, (including one that claims Olympic weight training credentials), who do not comprehend the acquisition of power and strength without the use of weights.

In that particular thread that this subject was discussed absolutely no one agreed with me. A couple of people who actually train TCMAs managed to discuss the matter in a civil manner. Others (together with their "decades of experience" only managed to throw ridicule and spite on this methodology and myself, not to mention the first poster who brought this practice to their attention).



as for feeling the power of that system - I do not disagree w/this, having experienced power of this nature myself, and again, I can understand why this power can be generated without the use of resistance training utilized by other approaches

Where were you when I needed you in the other thread? If you had come in and confirmed that such methodologies existed then you would have saved a lot of this forum's Tae Kwon Do and grappling experts, and Jack of All Trades from putting their foots in their mouths. LOL.

Based on my experience in Mainland Chinese Wing Chun, where weight training is also avoided, I believe that there are more than one way of generating such power. IMHO your way is not the same as the Chow Gar way.



well, I don't disagree, but I'm not quite sure what your point is here and I don't find this concept inconsistent with anything I have stated

That was just a general statement for those misguided souls who think that just because a methodology is modern and "scientific" it makes it automatically superior to ancient knowledge.



don't know what the smile is all about,
I was being civil and friendly.:)

Despite our history in this forum, I kind of enjoy in participating in TCMA discussions with you after you started acting in a civil manner towards me. However, I still suspect that if you ever met me in person you would attempt to strangle the life out of me. LOL.



but if you actually had training in "modern science", you might have a slightly different perspective as to the actual depth and breadth of knowledge that it encompasses...

I have no doubt about the depth and breadth of modern science just as I do not have any doubts about its limits when it comes to understanding traditional Chinese science and MA methodologies.

HW108

[kfson]

...so I am fairly confident that I can speak with some degree of relative authority in the matter; of course, I didn't go into as much detail as I could have, because when I have done so in the past, I get accused of self-aggrandizement...

Why would anyone bully knowledge/information? Carry on.

[IronFist]

it's a good clip, and has been discussed on here at length; this is about as "authentic" as one can get in this particular tradition;

and while I am not in anyway disparaging his skill, I do think he does the viewer a disservice to assert that power generation has "nothing" to do w/muscle, and that it relies on "organs" and "tendons"; I just think that it's a gross oversimplification, and does not actually describe what is really going on;
fact is, if you move, if you generate power of any sort, you are using muscle - I would defy anyone who believes otherwise to simple hook up external EMG monitors and see if they can move without generating a signal;

however, what I think he is trying to articulate, and this is just my personal perspective, certainly I can't prove it, is that if you use your muscle according to so-called "internal" principles, then you are using them in a harmonized / unified manner, and that you are optimizing their contractile properties along w/the elastic recoil component of tendon, and along with the function of the breath (which requires coordination of both muscle and non-contractile elastic recoil to function optimally), and because of this unification of muscle w/all these things, you are able to respond to both ground reaction force and the force of your opponent in a "lively" manner, one that would not be possible if one's muscular system were contracting inappropriately; this, I believe, is why so much of the training focuses on proprioception - from static standing, to moving forms, to partnered drills: I believe that you are training the muscles to respond in a way that if more sensitive to the forces acting upon them, and matching those forces in a way to achieve a desired outcome;

This is correct.

Muscles = movement.

Tendons cannot contract. Neither can organs or ligaments or any of that other crap you hear "masters" talking about.

I just figured when someone says "move with your tendons" or whatever they just mean "don't overly muscle through the movement" or "don't use more tension than you have to."

Then again, traditional martial artists are about the last people you want to take strength advice from, anyway. Here's a brief list of some things that "masters" have told me or that are common beliefs in the MA community:

"Big muscles make you slow" (lol, this is biomechanically false. The only way it could be true would be if the added muscle mass (weight) didn't come with increased strength with which to move that weight)

"Big muscles make you inflexible" (lol, Tom Platz, a pro bodybuilder with the biggest quads of all time could do the split. As long as you train for flexibility, you will have flexibility)

"Big muscles are detrimental to martial arts" (lol, this must be a myth perpetuated by skinny people who are afraid of big people. The only way big muscles get in the way if is you're SO enormously huge that you can't reach across your own chest or something... and that's not going to happen to 99% of people, even with perfect drug and training regimen, because they don't have the genetics to do so)

"Distance running is a good way to increase your endurance in a fight" (no, ask any boxer who increased his running ability from 5 miles to 10 miles... he'll still get equally as winded in a fight. Running does not stress the body the same as fighting. If you want to get more endurance for fighting... fight more!)

"Heavy weights make you big" (no, otherwise there wouldn't be 120 pound people who bench press 400+ pounds. Heavy weights done in the right volume with the right time under tension and combined with the right diet is what makes you big. Heavy weights alone do not)

"Lifting light weights for high reps makes you strong" (no, but it might increase your endurance for that particular lift. There's a reason powerlifters don't lift light weights for high reps... it's because it doesn't make you stronger)


Fortunately now that MMA is so popular and people are seeing BIG strong people who are fast and strong some of these myths will be put to rest.

Of course, there is a lot to be said for developing proper body mechanics and movement.

A strong, powerful man with correct movement and mechanics will be able to hit significantly harder than a weak man with proper mechanics and a stronger man with poor mechanics.


Honestly tho, the more MAs who want to keep avoiding strength training, that's fine with me. I'd rather get into fights with them, anyway :p

[kfson]

"Distance running is a good way to increase your endurance in a fight" (no, ask any boxer who increased his running ability from 5 miles to 10 miles... he'll still get equally as winded in a fight. Running does not stress the body the same as fighting. If you want to get more endurance for fighting... fight more!)



Any distance running, if that is desirable, for martial artists should be done in multiple sprints with very short recovery times. This builds endurance while promoting short fiber muscles.
Long distance running takes away upper body strength. At least that's how my body seems to respond.

[taai gihk yahn]

I agree. I also find that each side will acquire something that "works" for them and hence the methodology will become their benchmark.
or their stumbling block (c.f. - Uki's patio...)


Of course, that still does not mean that they can't learn from each other.
in an ideal world, no; in reality, well, the logistics can be daunting...


I understand your background and that makes me understand your view of this subject matter and the links that you are able to make but I am sure that you are not implying that you are a kung fu master, either.
mastery is fluid and relative; there are specific things that I am confident enough in to consider that I have mastered them (e.g. - certain techniques of manual therapy, I find I do at least as well as the people I earned them from at this point), but it doesn't mean that this mastery is an end unto itself; mastery is such as it is - if I arrive at it, it would be equally inappropriate to deny it as it would be to claim it when it does not exist - but in order to see this clearly without ego, one needs to be in a state of great responsiveness and alertness (reading Krishnamurti, for example, one senses that he knew this without preconception or ego)


Chow Gar uses very DISTINCT methodologies. I suspect that other Internal styles have theirs. These differences are the factors that among other things distinguish these styles from each other.
certainly, this is so - things such as emphasis, sequencing, outcome measures - these all vary greatly;


I believe that through time and watering down of some of these systems the more profound aspects have gone "underground" (even more than before). Hence we are left with a lot of COMMON to all styles, internal practices that are more visible/available nowadays. These (and any so called scientific understanding of them) are the basis for any modern understanding of the Internals and hence limited.
there is what I call "new age" internal, which is excessively focused on phenomenon and external validation - e.g. "feeling" this or "experiencing" that and having your teacher tell you that you are "correct" and feeling good about yourself as a result (this is the "bored suburban housewife" or "mid-career crisis executive" way - it's amazing how many of these types end up teaching Tai Chi at the loca community center...); true internal practice, from a "classical" Daoist perspective, IMPE, is about practicing towards freedom (and not in the sense that one may characterize it in a prosaic sense alone, although this is part of it); in that sense, both MA and health practice of internals, being focused on outcome in the way they are, is a corruption of what is the "ultimate goal"; in the hierarchy of Jing / Heih / Shen, it is this third level that is often missing (our friend Hendrick likes to make sideways allusions to this not infrequently) - in a "western" context, this would be the change from phenomena to noumena;


IMHO, too much explanation and technical jargon can work against one in a forum that is not for specialists in that given area (human anatomy).
yes, if for its own sake, and no if it supports one's point - especially in the area of MA, where it really behooves the practitioner to know his / her tools...what I would say is that athough I try to keep it in layman's terms, sometimes I forget or it's not possible - but at the same time, whenever anyone has an interest in what I have written and didn't understand it and asked me for clarification, I have always provided it, so it's not about trying to be exclusive, it's actually (in the words of Kermit the Frog), "raising the intellectual level" of the forum; of course, people don't have to come along for the ride, but those that have seem to have enjoyed it...


Well as far as kung fu goes then I do not generally discuss subjects I do not have personal experience in and I have been around long enough to know that the methodology I speak of is not at all common. Furthermore, the reasons were explained to me; I have seen the strength and power this produces and I will swear by it. Having said that, I am limited in what I can discuss on a public internet forum because of confidentiality reasons. Any one who has actually trained in an authentic TCMA school will appreciate that.
well, that's certainly your purview, but personally I believe that such secretism is more harmful in the long run at this point, as it leads to misunderstandings and fragmentation - I personally believe that the "goal" of human discourse is to arrive at generalized consensus and that compartmentalization of knowledge breeds subjectivity to an unhealthy degree; but that's just me;


I see your point but then there are others here that follow the "modern" methodology, apparently with the good old, "decades of experience" tag, (including one that claims Olympic weight training credentials), who do not comprehend the acquisition of power and strength without the use of weights.
there is really no need to bring up your personal issue with other forum members: I am well aware of your opinion of them and there's of you and the only way to reconcile that at this point is to not get involved on either end; quite frankly, I also have my own personal opinion of you, but I am trying to look past it to discuss subject matter independent of such feelings; and so since I don't bring up others here, or you in other threads, I don't see the reason for you to do in context of this exchange;

[taai gihk yahn]

In that particular thread that this subject was discussed absolutely no one agreed with me. A couple of people who actually train TCMAs managed to discuss the matter in a civil manner. Others (together with their "decades of experience" only managed to throw ridicule and spite on this methodology and myself, not to mention the first poster who brought this practice to their attention).
that may well be, but I also recall that the original poster also had some very strange ideas of his own about resistance training that were not supported by current knowledge at all; but as it turned into a flame fest in all directions, I pretty much avoided following that thread


Where were you when I needed you in the other thread? If you had come in and confirmed that such methodologies existed then you would have saved a lot of this forum's Tae Kwon Do and grappling experts, and Jack of All Trades from putting their foots in their mouths. LOL.
I would think you would know better than to pose this question; first, I am not interested in contributing to your polemic, and as you have appropriated my posts to bolster your position in the past to reinforce your overall viewpoint which I do not agree with, I will not post in a thread that has become contentious to the degree that the one you reference did; second, as noted earlier, I refuse to become involved in any negativity in either direction; quite frankly, if they banned you tomorrow I wouldn't mourn for your departure in the least, but seeing as you have evidently agreed to abide by some ground rules, then at least the possibility for continued civil discourse exists; so do me a favor and refrain from sideways remarks about how "clueless" others are and how ill-treated you are by them and any references to Glorified Kickboxers and all that, as none of it is relevant to the subject under discussion; likewise, if anyone else wants to join in here, I would expect the same level of decorum;


Based on my experience in Mainland Chinese Wing Chun, where weight training is also avoided, I believe that there are more than one way of generating such power. IMHO your way is not the same as the Chow Gar way.
the body is the body, the breath is the breath; you can employ any number of different rarified approaches to get the system to respond in a given way, but it will always be in context of its own self-nature: you an get the autonomics and connective tissue matrix to do some pretty interesting things, but you can't get them to do anything outside of what is within their inherent and ultimately limited capabilities - it's just that I think a lot of the potential is not tapped in everyday living, so when we see some of the less common methods of function, we think of it as extraordinary...


That was just a general statement for those misguided souls who think that just because a methodology is modern and "scientific" it makes it automatically superior to ancient knowledge.
I would suggest that you and others here hold exactly the inverse viewpoint - it seems that there is this knowing mockery of how inadequate "science" is, without any real basis for that except a jointly held contrarian belief system;


Despite our history in this forum, I kind of enjoy in participating in TCMA discussions with you after you started acting in a civil manner towards me. However, I still suspect that if you ever met me in person you would attempt to strangle the life out of me. LOL.
I'd like to emphasize that the reason for my acting more civil to you had nothing to do with you in particular, but is the result of decisions I had made in general during a hiatus from the forum in regards to how I respond to the world in general; that said, I engage in these discussions simply to provide a given perspective, one that can see and discuss the value in both approaches; so it's not about me taking sides, it's about dispassionate discourse; that is why I feel neither the need to apologize to you for past behavior, nor the need to perpetuate that behavior going forward;


I have no doubt about the depth and breadth of modern science just as I do not have any doubts about its limits when it comes to understanding traditional Chinese science and MA methodologies.
and here is where we part ways, because if the truth is as such, then any system of knowledge has the capability to assess it on its own merits; given that most "ancient" Chinese knowledge is couched in metaphor, certainly this makes it challenging to examine it from a relatively objective perspective, but I think that if applied conscientiously, contemporary knowledge has the capacity to describe as much of "internal" practice as relates to any physical manifestations / changes that occur as a result;

[kfson]

Daoist perspective, IMPE, is about practicing towards freedom (and not in the sense that one may characterize it in a prosaic sense alone, although this is part of it); in that sense, both MA and health practice of internals, being focused on outcome in the way they are, is a corruption of what is the "ultimate goal"; in the hierarchy of Jing / Heih / Shen, it is this third level that is often missing (our friend Hendrick likes to make sideways allusions to this not infrequently) - in a "western" context, this would be the change from phenomena to noumena;


There are health practitioners of "internal" that do work with spirit or noumena as I think you are describing.

I think I hear you slapping your back with much of your above description. Are you belittling the path of others on their path to reunification?

Which brings me to the Greek philosophical description of ideas in the realm of Chinese thought.

[Hardwork108]

or their stumbling block (c.f. - Uki's patio...)

More like T_Niehoff's functional training with people who are "good" fighters, but I guess the point has been understood.


mastery is fluid and relative; there are specific things that I am confident enough in to consider that I have mastered them (e.g. - certain techniques of manual therapy, I find I do at least as well as the people I earned them from at this point), but it doesn't mean that this mastery is an end unto itself; mastery is such as it is - if I arrive at it, it would be equally inappropriate to deny it as it would be to claim it when it does not exist - but in order to see this clearly without ego, one needs to be in a state of great responsiveness and alertness (reading Krishnamurti, for example, one senses that he knew this without preconception or ego)
Understood and appreciated, but I was referring to TCMA mastery.



there is what I call "new age" internal, which is excessively focused on phenomenon and external validation - e.g. "feeling" this or "experiencing" that and having your teacher tell you that you are "correct" and feeling good about yourself as a result (this is the "bored suburban housewife" or "mid-career crisis executive" way - it's amazing how many of these types end up teaching Tai Chi at the loca community center...); true internal practice, from a "classical" Daoist perspective, IMPE, is about practicing towards freedom (and not in the sense that one may characterize it in a prosaic sense alone, although this is part of it); in that sense, both MA and health practice of internals, being focused on outcome in the way they are, is a corruption of what is the "ultimate goal"; in the hierarchy of Jing / Heih / Shen, it is this third level that is often missing (our friend Hendrick likes to make sideways allusions to this not infrequently) - in a "western" context, this would be the change from phenomena to noumena;
I wonder how many here in this forum, who claim that the Internals are BS, learned what they "know" from the new age "sifus"? Anyway, I agree to most of the above quote.


yes, if for its own sake, and no if it supports one's point - especially in the area of MA, where it really behooves the practitioner to know his / her tools...what I would say is that athough I try to keep it in layman's terms, sometimes I forget or it's not possible - but at the same time, whenever anyone has an interest in what I have written and didn't understand it and asked me for clarification, I have always provided it, so it's not about trying to be exclusive, it's actually (in the words of Kermit the Frog), "raising the intellectual level" of the forum; of course, people don't have to come along for the ride, but those that have seem to have enjoyed it...
Point taken.


well, that's certainly your purview, but personally I believe that such secretism is more harmful in the long run at this point, as it leads to misunderstandings and fragmentation - I personally believe that the "goal" of human discourse is to arrive at generalized consensus and that compartmentalization of knowledge breeds subjectivity to an unhealthy degree; but that's just me;
I beg to differ. Some of this stuff is very potent and useful and I believe that it should be kept secret. Sometimes these gongs or techniques are referred to as a particular style's "treasures" and hence should be hidden.

Some of the less enlightened members of the MA community may regard this as fantasy talk or con-jobs, but then I suppose that this mindset has existed for as long as there have been TCMAs and will even help keep this stuff secret because many do not even acknowledge that they exist.

So, if there are people who are subjective about the a given methodology then that is their problem. If they are ridiculing it because their MMA coach ( or "kung fu sifu") denies that they exist, then again that is their problem. The key point is that the secrecy has to be maintained nothing else matters.

I have met kung fu sifus who have these secrets but will give you the usual, "there are no secrets in kung fu" line, a phrase that is so beloved by todays "modern is best" Knucklehead Fu community.


there is really no need to bring up your personal issue with other forum members: I am well aware of your opinion of them and there's of you and the only way to reconcile that at this point is to not get involved on either end;
I brought them up because their knowledge or to put it better, lack off, was relevant to he point I was making.


quite frankly, I also have my own personal opinion of you, but I am trying to look past it to discuss subject matter independent of such feelings; and so since I don't bring up others here, or you in other threads, I don't see the reason for you to do in context of this exchange;

Before your personal opinion of me solidifies any further I would suggest that you examine further in what context you were introduced to my character. Also, look at the cr@p I had to deal with from the likes of Lkfmdc, a poster with whom I had virtually no contact, before he initiated his slanderous crap campaign, here in the forums in the past. I did not even know who he was when he started to act the way he did. You know that because you were there. I get more or less the same from Sanjuro ronin.

None of these guys are intelligent characters but somehow, lets call it a twist of fate, they have acquired the ability to write, hence type on keyboards. Furthermore, they seem to feel insecure enough about themselves and certain people to make them act very unlike what one would expect from people with "decades" of MA experience, not to mention, "sifus"!

Again. I mention these characters because my interactions with them have certainly played a part in you forming your opinion of me.

[Hardwork108]

that may well be, but I also recall that the original poster also had some very strange ideas of his own about resistance training that were not supported by current knowledge at all; but as it turned into a flame fest in all directions, I pretty much avoided following that thread
Maybe his "ideas" were strange to those who do not practice Chow Gar. Furthermore, I believe that he did not invent those "ideas" and that those are the teachings of the current holder of that AUTHENTIC lineage who is an actual Grandmaster.



I would think you would know better than to pose this question; first, I am not interested in contributing to your polemic, and as you have appropriated my posts to bolster your position in the past to reinforce your overall viewpoint which I do not agree with,
I believe that you read too much into my question. If a rare methodology is being discussed and most people are making clueless comments about it, while you, taai gihk, know better, then you could come in and make a neutral post and say that "such and such" methodology does exist. There is nothing wrong with that, even if you happen to, on odd occassions, agree with me, as opposed to your forum friends.

So I see your none participation in that particular thread as a mystery and I doubt that you were worried about getting a grilling from Dave Ross for daring to agree with me. Or am I wrong?


I will not post in a thread that has become contentious to the degree that the one you reference did; second, as noted earlier, I refuse to become involved in any negativity in either direction;
If you followed the thread then you must know that the negativity was not started by me. Actually, it had started before I even entered the thread.

Now that I think about it, you could have made your point about the methodology before I entered that thread, when there were no worries about being seen to "agree" with HW108.


quite frankly, if they banned you tomorrow I wouldn't mourn for your departure in the least, but seeing as you have evidently agreed to abide by some ground rules, then at least the possibility for continued civil discourse exists;
I did not agree to anything. By making statements like that you are pretending that your friends in this forum are on the level, while both of us know that they are NOT!

I am civil with you because you are being civil with me. The same goes with my being civil with Ten Tigers, Hendrik, Chusauli and a few others. They practice and have knowledge of TCMAs. While the people with whom I have differences with are nothing but kung fu-wise clueless, Jack of All Trades and opportunists.

Now I may not agree with everything the above MA-ists have to say but I am civil with them as they are genuine just as I may not agree with your understanding of the Internals in modern scientific terms but at least I can discuss them as you do have a point of reference, unlike most people here.


so do me a favor and refrain from sideways remarks about how "clueless" others are and how ill-treated you are by them and any references to Glorified Kickboxers and all that, as none of it is relevant to the subject under discussion; likewise, if anyone else wants to join in here,

If I do make remarks about clueless glorified kickboxers then that would be because it is relevant to what we are discussing. I honestly believe that we are still discussing this Chow Gar methodology because of them and their ignorant behavior. Think about it!



the body is the body, the breath is the breath; you can employ any number of different rarified approaches to get the system to respond in a given way, but it will always be in context of its own self-nature: you an get the autonomics and connective tissue matrix to do some pretty interesting things, but you can't get them to do anything outside of what is within their inherent and ultimately limited capabilities - it's just that I think a lot of the potential is not tapped in everyday living, so when we see some of the less common methods of function, we think of it as extraordinary...

The body is the body, the breath is the breath, yet no one, and I say this respectfully, including yourself, knows how that particular methodology functions and creates results. I will go further and say that you will not find references in books or dvds, except for vague references that will be seen by most "modern" MA experts as fantasy or ignorant training.

When I was (vaguely) discussing this methodology I was waiting for a 2 key phrases which would show wether any one here had an idea of the method. No one came up with these phrases (in any version, I might add). ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!



would suggest that you and others here hold exactly the inverse viewpoint - it seems that there is this knowing mockery of how inadequate "science" is, without any real basis for that except a jointly held contrarian belief system;
From the particular Chow Gar (and probably Dragon and Pak Mei, not to mention others) perspective, the above view point about the inadequacy of "science" in regards to TCMA understanding holds true and is partially demonstrated in various threads in this very forum.



I'd like to emphasize that the reason for my acting more civil to you had nothing to do with you in particular, but is the result of decisions I had made in general during a hiatus from the forum in regards to how I respond to the world in general; that said, I engage in these discussions simply to provide a given perspective, one that can see and discuss the value in both approaches;

I never said that your new found civility was because of me (as charming as others here may find me :D). I have referred to the fact that you seem to be a person who looks and examines his past behavior and perhaps improves on it. This is called, "evolution" (at least on one level). You have my respect for that. Your friends in this forum can take a page out of your book.



so it's not about me taking sides, it's about dispassionate discourse; that is why I feel neither the need to apologize to you for past behavior, nor the need to perpetuate that behavior going forward;
Well as long as you never let it happen again.:D

Seriously though, I was not expecting, nor implying for you to take sides as I do very well alone defending myself as I am sure that you have realized that the people with whom I have problems with are NOT TCMA-ists and furthermore, they ain't no Einsteins either, LOL.



and here is where we part ways, because if the truth is as such, then any system of knowledge has the capability to assess it on its own merits; given that most "ancient" Chinese knowledge is couched in metaphor, certainly this makes it challenging to examine it from a relatively objective perspective, but I think that if applied conscientiously, contemporary knowledge has the capacity to describe as much of "internal" practice as relates to any physical manifestations / changes that occur as a result;

Yet, no one outside Chow Gar(and other relevant TCMAs) practitioners will know what I am talking about and discussions in this very forum verify this fact.

Of course, having said that, once you know the methodology then you may be able to explain most (I doubt all) of it scientifically. In fact the basics, including the concepts involved, could be explained to you in minutes.

HW108

[taai gihk yahn]

There are health practitioners of "internal" that do work with spirit or noumena as I think you are describing.
of course, and there are also martially-oriented ones as well; I'm simply pointing out that from a certain perspective, results such as martial skill or health are not the ultimate "goal";


I think I hear you slapping your back with much of your above description. Are you belittling the path of others on their path to reunification?
whatever you are "hearing" is on you, not me; I'm simply pointing out how, IMPE, I have encountered many people who are simply shifting their neurosis from one form of stimulation (career, family, etc.) to another ("spiritual" practice) and then, w/relatively superficial experience (I mean a few years at most) go out and start teaching; certainly, everyone is on their own path, but w/some you just have to raise an eyebrow or two...
anyhow, we have already become one, so how can we say anything at all? ;)


Which brings me to the Greek philosophical description of ideas in the realm of Chinese thought.are you suggesting that these ideas are inadequate to the task? I would not totally disagree, but I think they get you in the ballpark - and Greek thought is not completely divorced from Chinese, given that they were both influenced to varying degrees by Indian and near-eastern cultures throughout their histories; I mean, you read Heraclitus, it's pretty "Daoist"...which either speaks to common influence or spontaneous manifestation of similar thought in context of the experience of life such as it is...

[kfson]

of course, and there are also martially-oriented ones as well; I'm simply pointing out that from a certain perspective, results such as martial skill or health are not the ultimate "goal";

OK, I assumed that was a patent community concept.


you are "hearing" is on you, not me; I'm simply pointing out how, IMPE, I have encountered many people who are simply shifting their neurosis from one form of stimulation (career, family, etc.) to another ("spiritual" practice) and then, w/relatively superficial experience (I mean a few years at most) go out and start teaching; certainly, everyone is on their own path, but w/some you just have to raise an eyebrow or two...
anyhow, we have already become one, so how can we say anything at all? ;)

Very good, I'm glad you understand that concept of interpretation.
I disagree with your neurosis concept it shows a disrespect for yourself and spirit.
When did teaching come into the picture?
What do you think is the source of your eyebrow raising. Again, I think it is a disrespect for yourself and spirit.
We have to say something... to find out why eyebrows are raised. Maybe some people are here for different reasons.



you suggesting that these ideas are inadequate to the task? I would not totally disagree, but I think they get you in the ballpark - and Greek thought is not completely divorced from Chinese, given that they were both influenced to varying degrees by Indian and near-eastern cultures throughout their histories; I mean, you read Heraclitus, it's pretty "Daoist"...which either speaks to common influence or spontaneous manifestation of similar thought in context of the experience of life such as it is...

I'm not a Western philosophy expert, though I have studied it, sometimes with contempt. Your Greek words may not mean anything to the average reader. If you really understand the history and baggage of those words, you should be able to easily translate them into common English.

[taai gihk yahn]

I disagree with your neurosis concept it shows a disrespect for yourself and spirit.
When did teaching come into the picture?
What do you think is the source of your eyebrow raising. Again, I think it is a disrespect for yourself and spirit.
We have to say something... to find out why eyebrows are raised. Maybe some people are here for different reasons.
again, it is your personal perspective that connotes disrespect, and to presume that I am doing so to myself and "spirit" (whatever that may be) is to bring your own preconditions in as much as you propose that I bring in mine;
simple fact is this: many if not most people live in a state where they act unconsciously out of their habitual responses; many people who turn to "spirituality" as a means of escaping their "ordinary" lives simple transfer their issues from one realm to another, seeking validation of their ego-constructs; this is true for both practitioners as it is for teachers - look around, you will see many taichi, reiki and feng shui "masters" out there with minimal experience, who use their roll as a teacher to self-validate rather than as a vehicle for truly working with the needs of their students;
this assessment does not disparage, it is seeing clearly; I have worked w/many patients and students who are stuck in this manner - the disrespect would be to not acknowledge clearly as to where they are, and to not meet them there as best one is able; as I always say, if you forget about me once I have finished working with you, then I have done my job well;
this is just my personal perspective, although it mirrors that of the teachers I have been fortunate enough to study with;


I'm not a Western philosophy expert, though I have studied it, sometimes with contempt. Your Greek words may not mean anything to the average reader. If you really understand the history and baggage of those words, you should be able to easily translate them into common English.
phenomena=an observable occurence
noumena=an event / thing such as it is, independent of observation

this is a basic definition of each; certainly one can argue it in great depth;

[David Jamieson]

Why bother? What exactly is the point of the skill and what makes it useful in this day and age?

[Hardwork108]

Why bother? What exactly is the point of the skill and what makes it useful in this day and age?
Do you mean that in this day and age people are too nice to kick you in the nuts? LOL

[mooyingmantis]

The demonstration of being kicked in the "boys" is a trick. It was one of the first kung fu tricks for demonstrations that I learned decades ago. It can be taught in less than five minutes. The point of the trick is to teach proper stance. With proper stance there is no need to try and draw the testicles into the body cavity.
I saw the video posted by someone earlier in this thread and the sifu is clearly doing the trick based on his stance and the "angle of attack" of the kick. Change the "angle of attack" of the kick and that instructor would be lying unconscious on the floor. Simple parlor trick!
Richard

[Hardwork108]

The demonstration of being kicked in the "boys" is a trick. It was one of the first kung fu tricks for demonstrations that I learned decades ago. It can be taught in less than five minutes. The point of the trick is to teach proper stance. With proper stance there is no need to try and draw the testicles into the body cavity.
I saw the video posted by someone earlier in this thread and the sifu is clearly doing the trick based on his stance and the "angle of attack" of the kick. Change the "angle of attack" of the kick and that instructor would be lying unconscious on the floor. Simple parlor trick!
Richard

There may be a "trick" version of taking kicks in the groin, just as there is when it come to breaking bricks, but I am informed that there is a practice where the testicles are drawn in.

[David Jamieson]

Do you mean that in this day and age people are too nice to kick you in the nuts? LOL

So are you proposing that prior to a street fight I should stand in a qigong and ascend my testicles?

Are you actually asserting that this is the purpose and point of the skill?

If re-ascension is a worthwhile skill for fighting, then why bother with golden egg? or Iron *****?

I was of the mind that the point of re-ascension had more to do with attempts at returning to primordial essence as an obscure practice.

I have HUGE doubt that anyone can instantly re-ascend their testes in the real time of h2h combat.

definitely a requirement here for the extraordinary evidence that would support such an extraordinary claim.

[mooyingmantis]

There may be a "trick" version of taking kicks in the groin, just as there is when it come to breaking bricks, but I am informed that there is a practice where the testicles are drawn in.

No offense Hardwork, but it is bs. Not only have I trained in the MAs for over 40 years, but I also work in the medical field. I know human anatomy. I teach human anatomy as a part of martial arts training. The "boys" just don't work that way, except in the case of a medical condition that can occur prenatally. And it that case it can take a medical procedure to bring them out of the body cavity.
This is one of many martial arts myths passed through generations. Chalk it up to the old "nose bone through the brain" bs.
Seeing is believing, unless you see this in person and feel the scrotum to attest that one or both testicles are absent, then reappear, it will remain a myth. Frankly, I'll pass on testing it that way. :)
Richard

[Dragonzbane76]

Seeing is believing, unless you see this in person and feel the scrotum to attest that one or both testicles are absent, then reappear, it will remain a myth. Frankly, I'll pass on testing it that way.

oh he likes 'feeling' the scrotum. that's how he knows all this 'mythological' internal MA's. He's a closet master after all and they know this kinda stuff. ;)

[Hardwork108]

No offense Hardwork, but it is bs. Not only have I trained in the MAs for over 40 years,
No offense either but this forum is full of MA "experts" with "decades of experience".


but I also work in the medical field. I know human anatomy.
Again, no offense, but we have a few of those here too...LOL.

One of them, Taai Gihk Yahn, who also has a good bit of TCMA experience, and is a person that has so far made more sense than the rest of the "decades of experience" Modern MA group, has made a post in this thread that would seem to disagree with your take on this practice.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=979976&postcount=28


I teach human anatomy as a part of martial arts training. The "boys" just don't work that way, except in the case of a medical condition that can occur prenatally. And it that case it can take a medical procedure to bring them out of the body cavity.
This is one of many martial arts myths passed through generations. Chalk it up to the old "nose bone through the brain" bs.
Even though this is not a skill that I have mastered I believe it to be real as there are others that are seen as myths by those whose experience is in other areas of MA practice.


Seeing is believing, unless you see this in person and feel the scrotum to attest that one or both testicles are absent, then reappear, it will remain a myth.
The clip I provided earlier shows the BBC presenter feeling the master's scrotum!

HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WDGSUn44&NR=1



Frankly, I'll pass on testing it that way. :)
Richard

I thought you medical practitioners did that all the time?:confused:;)

[Hardwork108]

oh he likes 'feeling' the scrotum. that's how he knows all this 'mythological' internal MA's. He's a closet master after all and they know this kinda stuff. ;)

Right now I would love to use my Tiger Claw tearing technique to "feel" your scrotum.:D

[taai gihk yahn]

One of them, Taai Gihk Yahn, who also has a good bit of TCMA experience, and is a person that has so far made more sense than the rest of the "decades of experience" Modern MA group, has made a post in this thread that would seem to disagree with your take on this practice.

[url]http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?

note, I said that would be all one would have to do - so in theory, it's a possibility; but in reality it may not work - I personally do not have this capacity, nor have I ever verified someone who could; although, Dave Ross (you may know of him), has claimed that Chan Tai Shan "demonstrated" this for him and that he directly verified it (well, supposedly sifu grabbed his hand and made him verify it, LOL)

so I guess that means you'd have to take David's word for it :eek:

[Boston Bagua]

Right now I would love to use my Tiger Claw tearing technique to "feel" your scrotum.:D



You have no technique other than mouth boxing

and I do not want to see an example of that skill.....:eek:

[Hardwork108]

note, I said that would be all one would have to do - so in theory, it's a possibility; but in reality it may not work
Still the BBC presenter had a "feel", so I guess it seems that some people may be using a methodology that may give them such abilities.


I personally do not have this capacity, nor have I ever verified someone who could;
I do not have this capacity either however my Chow Gar sifu had informed me that this is a real ability, although he did not believe it to be a necessary skill to have, because a strong and well placed kick could also hurt or damage one's p$nis.


although, Dave Ross (you may know of him),
Isn't he the guy who teaches some form of "kung fu" tagged, MMA/kick boxing in New York and sees any posts validating actual TCMA methodologies, as a threat to his internet student recruitment attempts resulting in him making unprovoked attacks at the posters, many of whom, don't even know him? If he is, then I know him very well.:D


has claimed that Chan Tai Shan "demonstrated" this for him and that he directly verified it (well, supposedly sifu grabbed his hand and made him verify it, LOL)

I have heard another version of that story where Chan Tai Shan spent the last 15 years of his life searching for Dave Ross's balls and never found any. However, don't take my word for it as there seem to be many "myths" in the TCMA circles.:D


so I guess that means you'd have to take David's word for it :eek:
The TCMAs must be in a sad state for any of us to have to rely on Dave Ross's word when there are genuine TCMA masters such as the one in the video clip I posted who can verify given methodologies.

Luckily for me I don't need to rely on the word of people such as Dave Ross regarding any thing to do with TCMAs.;)

[Hardwork108]

You have no technique other than mouth boxing

and I do not want to see an example of that skill.....:eek:
Why should you? As you have nothing to learn from me when it comes to mouth boxing skills.

[mooyingmantis]

As for my decades of experience. I can prove mine. Though some here may not have been training or even born then, please check out back issues of Inside Kung Fu 1984-1986. You will find advertisements and reports from the seminars I conducted and my martial arts videotapes that sold across the country. Those who have any questions about my ability or character can contact Mike Biggie (NPM Akron, Ohio) and/or Yang Shu Ton and his senior instructors (Wu Tang Akron, Ohio). They have known me for over 20 years. Another reference might be Gino Belfiore (Hung Gar, Northern Shaolin, Monkey, Shuai Jiao Cleveland, Ohio). Though I realize that is only twenty of my over forty years of experience, I think that is probably all the references I will need. :)
As for pulling the "boys" into the body cavity, believe as you desire. But remember the Chinese also used to recommend drinking mercury and warming acupuncture needles by placing them in their mouths before treating patients as a part of TCM, so don't believe everything taught by an "old master". Fortunately we have come a long ways. Sometimes martial arts displays can be summed up with the Chinese phrase: gua yang tou mai gou rou.
Richard A. Tolson

[Hardwork108]

As for my decades of experience. I can prove mine. Though some here may not have been training or even born then, please check out back issues of Inside Kung Fu 1984-1986. You will find advertisements and reports from the seminars I conducted and my martial arts videotapes that sold across the country. Those who have any questions about my ability or character can contact Mike Biggie (NPM Akron, Ohio) and/or Yang Shu Ton and his senior instructors (Wu Tang Akron, Ohio). They have known me for over 20 years. Another reference might be Gino Belfiore (Hung Gar, Northern Shaolin, Monkey, Shuai Jiao Cleveland, Ohio). Though I realize that is only twenty of my over forty years of experience, I think that is probably all the references I will need. :)
As for pulling the "boys" into the body cavity, believe as you desire. But remember the Chinese also used to recommend drinking mercury and warming acupuncture needles by placing them in their mouths before treating patients as a part of TCM, so don't believe everything taught by an "old master". Fortunately we have come a long ways. Sometimes martial arts displays can be summed up with the Chinese phrase: gua yang tou mai gou rou.
Richard A. Tolson

I guess it is your experience pitted against the experience of the Chow Gar master in the video clip, who happens to be the genuine lineage holder of Chow Gar (and not an unknown China man who stepped off the boat yesterday) as well as my sifu who confirmed that this skill existed (even if he personally did not consider it as significant for MA prowess).

Furthermore, there are fakes in every walk of life. There are thousands of people who die and or develop cronic conditions because of the side effects of modern medicine as well. So it is good to see things in perspective.

As for you qualifications, I don' t know either way. So, I am not assuming that you are good nor that you are bad. All I can say that there are people here with impressive MA resumés in their profiles who do nothing but make clueless comments the minute the TCMA discussion moves beyond the hitting people on the head level.

Furthermore, the world is full of kung fu associations and their members. Most of them are businesses and are more concerned with making $$$$$$ through classes; dvd sales and seminars, etc. than promoting genuine TCMA practices and methodologies.

The few genuine and authentic kung fu kwoons that I have crossed paths with have been low profile schools and not part of huge business franchises. The training was not standardized and the aim of the sifu was never to maximize class sizes but to maximize his attention to each student.

I have just stated the above to show the limits of written credentials and what I say is not meant to reflect an opinion regarding your qualifications nor your knowledge. I may have an opinion on your knowledge and you of mine if we interact more in these forums in the future as one usually can comprehend the degree of the other's knowledge through genuine TCMA discussions.:)

[Kansuke]

there are fakes in every walk of life.



And you are one in this walk of life, so STFU idiot.

[Hardwork108]

And you are one in this walk of life, so STFU idiot.

Doesn't Dave Ross ever sleep? :confused:

[Kansuke]

Doesn't Dave Ross ever sleep? :confused:

Why don't you ask him, ya ****ing dimwit?

[Hardwork108]

Why don't you ask him, ya ****ing dimwit?
Why does Dave Ross swear so much?:confused:

[mooyingmantis]

I guess it is your experience pitted against the experience of the Chow Gar master in the video clip, who happens to be the genuine lineage holder of Chow Gar (and not an unknown China man who stepped off the boat yesterday) as well as my sifu who confirmed that this skill existed (even if he personally did not consider it as significant for MA prowess).

I may have an opinion on your knowledge and you of mine if we interact more in these forums in the future as one usually can comprehend the degree of the other's knowledge through genuine TCMA discussions.:)

I am not trying to dismiss the man in the video by any means. So I am content to agreed to disagree peacefully. :)
I appreciated your other comments and agree with most of them.
Richard

[Dragonzbane76]

Right now I would love to use my Tiger Claw tearing technique to "feel" your scrotum.

haha you can try i can give you the address and everything. but i promise you it wouldn't happen. ;)

[Hardwork108]

haha you can try i can give you the address and everything. but i promise you it wouldn't happen. ;)
Of course it won't happen. How can I Tiger Claw and tear out something that you have never had?:p

[Dragonzbane76]

Of course it won't happen. How can I Tiger Claw and tear out something that you have never had?

you take everything literally don't you? and your gay come on is really disturbing.

[Hardwork108]

you take everything literally don't you? and your gay come on is really disturbing.

Now your are cutting and pasting my replies....LOL

[Dragonzbane76]

Now your are cutting and pasting my replies....LOL
fire with fire amigo. :cool:

[Hardwork108]

fire with fire amigo. :cool:lll
And you are still losing.......

[Dragonzbane76]

lll
And you are still losing.......

you and this control issue thing you have. again i'm not in a race with you...lol
I could care less for you. If you jumped off a bridge tomorrow or today it would not affect my life at all. :rolleyes:
good luck on your venture in WINNING THE INTERNET.... lol

[Hardwork108]

you and this control issue thing you have. again i'm not in a race with you...lol
I could care less for you. If you jumped off a bridge tomorrow or today it would not affect my life at all. :rolleyes:
good luck on your venture in WINNING THE INTERNET.... lol

I didn't say that I won anything. I merely said that you keep losing, as in you are a loser.

Just go and look back at your contribution on the subject matter of this thread and you will see. Your whole purpose of being here is to take cheap shots at me. You could not discuss the actual subject of this thread even if your life depended on it.

That is the issue I take with you and this forum's modern cross training knuckleheads. You are just clueless as far as any deeper and more unusual TCMA methodologies are concerned.

If the discussion is not about the "benefits" of Bjj ground fighting;the UFCs; Pumping Iron; Full contact sparring and so on, you guys end up "lost" and clueless, but somehow keep on insisting on "enlightening" the rest of us with your ego driven clueless comments.

This is a constant headache for those of us who actually bother to train the TCMAs in authentic schools and in a way that they were meant to be trained.

As a result, you always lose when you try and come out as knowledgable within your two dimension bag punching MA universe. Your inevitable losses do not necessarily mean that there are any winners, either!

[Dragonzbane76]

I
didn't say that I won anything. I merely said that you keep losing.
and that is a subjective statement. :p

[Hardwork108]

I
and that is a subjective statement. :p

It does not stop it from being a true statement.:D

[Dragonzbane76]

It does not stop it from being a true statement.

and it doesn't make anything you say true. so who cares. Oh well apparently you do with that winning the internet thing you have going on. forgot my bad.