What do you think?

[t_niehoff]

If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That would depend on what is the goal of what you are teaching.
In regards to fighting, yes, no doubt.
Although there is much to be said about bringing something "different to the table".

[HumbleWCGuy]

If someone else were saying this, I would probably agree 85%. But, since, niehoff has such a narrow view. I would have to guess that what he suggests, is just as likely to produce failures.

[Ali. R]

You’re 100% correct, if you can’t produce and a technique breaks down consistently while under pressures (as a master) and you have to modify it drastically to make it work into something that you never taught or something that was never taught too you...

And doing this over and over again to the point that the system is not identified at all within a 10 min joust with someone…

And still walk away calling it wing chun or whatever, it’s just is a shame that people fall for it…

Some people modify their own system to make it work, to the point that it looks like stuff you learn in boot camp (hand to hand) and not wing chun.

At least not the way they originally learned it and that's a major problem…


Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail.

Teaching people to 'be hit' and 'play dead' is all part of demonstrations and general practise in ALL Martial Arts.

What you hope to accomplish here is anyones guess T. Fighting fighting fighting! Each to their own I suppose... :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

Why is it that boxers, BJJ, MT, etc. are able to "look" in fighting like they do in training? It's because what they teach and practice doing is what they are already doing in fighting/sparring. If you find a way to pass the guard, for example, and it works consistently for you, you teach it and then practice it just like you do it. And viola' -- it looks just like how you fight!

Ask a boxer or MT or BJJ or etc. to actually do in sparring what they are teaching and they ahve no problem. Why? Because what they are teaching is ALREADY what they are doing in sparring.

On the other hand, suppose you are teaching things you can't do in sparring (which begs the question of how you can really teach it) or haven't seen others do in sparring -- then by definition you are teaching things that are at the very least unproven and probably not sound.

My view is that "If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail" should be our standard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To quote the DBMA and what should be the mantra of any MA teacher:
You see it taught, you see it fought.

[Ali. R]

You’re correct once again,

Wing Chun can also look real good when it’s real. Most people are just to lazy to take that full journey and will deviate for instant gratification, only concerned with reputation and being down with association…


Ali Rahim.

[Dragonzbane76]

Why is it that boxers, BJJ, MT, etc. are able to "look" in fighting like they do in training? It's because what they teach and practice doing is what they are already doing in fighting/sparring. If you find a way to pass the guard, for example, and it works consistently for you, you teach it and then practice it just like you do it. And viola' -- it looks just like how you fight!

Ask a boxer or MT or BJJ or etc. to actually do in sparring what they are teaching and they ahve no problem. Why? Because what they are teaching is ALREADY what they are doing in sparring.

On the other hand, suppose you are teaching things you can't do in sparring (which begs the question of how you can really teach it) or haven't seen others do in sparring -- then by definition you are teaching things that are at the very least unproven and probably not sound.

My view is that "If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail" should be our standard.

have to agree with you on this one. good post.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am still trying to figure out whether or not Niehoff believes that sport fighting equates to street fighting. I think that he does. Most if not all of the skills used in a ring will translate into the street setting, but one needs to have a wider skill range than what the ring teaches if you plan on using your skills in the street. Also, ring fighting isn't necessarily the most efficient, safest, or legal way to deal with a threat on the street.

There is a most efficient way to fight in a ring and there is a most efficient way to dust chumps. There is overlap but they aren't the same techniques. Although, the same attributes are needed. I am not trying to disparage the ring arts because ring fighting is an important component of real fighting. I never have and with very few exceptions I do not foresee ever giving an instructor's rank to someone who has not put forth decent showings in the ring.

[t_niehoff]

I am still trying to figure out whether or not Niehoff believes that sport fighting equates to street fighting. I think that he does. Most if not all of the skills used in a ring will translate into the street setting, but one needs to have a wider skill range than what the ring teaches if you plan on using your skills in the street. Also, ring fighting isn't necessarily the most efficient, safest, or legal way to deal with a threat on the street.


I think approaching things from a street vs. sport perspective is a mistake in that the focus of the question is wrong. Our FOCUS should be on acquiring and developing realistic fighting skills. Those skills can be used anywhere, in any realistic environment. HOW we use those skills -- our tactics -- will change depending on the circumstances, including whether I am attacked on the street or am sparring in the ring.



There is a most efficient way to fight in a ring and there is a most efficient way to dust chumps. There is overlap but they aren't the same techniques. Although, the same attributes are needed. I am not trying to disparage the ring arts because ring fighting is an important component of real fighting. I never have and with very few exceptions I do not foresee ever giving an instructor's rank to someone who has not put forth decent showings in the ring.

I also think looking at things from a what-is-the-most-efficient-way perspective is wrong (that's theoretical thinking). Instead, I think we need to look at things from a pragmatic perspective -- what sorts of things can - and more importantly, do - I regularly and consistently pull off (what are high percentage and low risk)?

Techniques are examples of the skills in action. As I said above, our skills are universal (we use them whereever and whenever we fight), but the tactics (how we use them) depends on the circumstances.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I also think looking at things from a what-is-the-most-efficient-way perspective is wrong (that's theoretical thinking). Instead, I think we need to look at things from a pragmatic perspective -- what sorts of things can - and more importantly, do - I regularly and consistently pull off (what are high percentage and low risk)?
I love it. Tell me that I am wrong only to rephrase what I just said. That's a gas.




Techniques are examples of the skills in action. As I said above, our skills are universal (we use them whereever and whenever we fight), but the tactics (how we use them) depends on the circumstances.
True but incomplete. Although, it really doesn't matter. I am sure that you have never been in a street fight or done any bouncing. Everything that you are saying rings hollow on the matter.

[t_niehoff]

I love it. Tell me that I am wrong only to rephrase what I just said. That's a gas.

Although, it really doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. I am sure that you have never been in a street fight or done any bouncing. Everything that you are saying rings hollow on the matter.

If you look at your initial post, you said: "I am still trying to figure out whether or not Niehoff believes that sport fighting equates to street fighting. I think that he does." So I took the time to explain my viewson that subject.

You complained in an earlier discussion that I was talking semantics, and I tried to explain (perhaps not very well) that it wasn't semantics but something more. My view is that we won't get the right answers asking the wrong questions. Street vs. sport is a wrong question. It leads us nowhere, and can only help confuse the matter.

[goju]

Why is it that boxers, BJJ, MT, etc. are able to "look" in fighting like they do in training? s

ac tually thats not always true ive seen plenty of countdown to ufc episodes where the show the figthers throwing crisps neat combos with their hands up during training and pad work and when they fight they are swinging wildly and leaving their hands down:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Street versus sport is a natural dichotomy because of the etiquette, rules, and Laws that govern. In addition, the average skill of the fighters whom one is facing is quite different between the street and sport. Finally, your your own goals matter (self-defense, bouncing, police, etc).

All of these factors and more contribute to different sets of techniques and skills being the most effective, efficient, or "pragmatic".

[t_niehoff]

ac tually thats not always true ive seen plenty of countdown to ufc episodes where the show the figthers throwing crisps neat combos with their hands up during training and pad work and when they fight they are swinging wildly and leaving their hands down:D

When those guys are training, they are "practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting", whether they have internalized that training yet is something else. The other aspect is conditioning. I can tell you from lots of personal experience that when you are exhausted, your training can go out the window. It's fair to say, I think, that your level of conditioning is the limit of your performance ability.

[goju]

When those guys are training, they are "practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting", whether they have internalized that training yet is something else. The other aspect is conditioning. I can tell you from lots of personal experience that when you are exhausted, your training can go out the window. It's fair to say, I think, that your level of conditioning is the limit of your performance ability.

how do you explain when they do it with in the first minute of a fight then? lol

it has nothing to do with conditioning its adrenaline when your body is pumping with it everything can go flying out the window:D

as ive said most mma fighters look better when they are hitting the pads or air as well

[t_niehoff]

Street versus sport is a natural dichotomy because of the etiquette, rules, and Laws that govern. In addition, the average skill of the fighters whom one is facing is quite different between the street and sport. Finally, your your own goals matter (self-defense, bouncing, police, etc).

All of these factors and more contribute to different sets of techniques and skills being the most effective, efficient, or "pragmatic".

Tons of stuff has been written on the street vs. sport question/mentality. (The SBGi has asection on it). It is not a "natural dichotomy" as you say but a philosophical dead end. It's a wrong question. It arises when you don't look at things from a skill-based (performance) perspective.

As I see it, WCK is a specific approach to fighting. It provides us a method and the skills (or skillset) to implement that method. As the kuit says, the method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the circumstances.

[t_niehoff]

how do you explain when they do it with in the first minute of a fight then? lol

it has nothing to do with conditioning its adrenaline when your body is pumping with it everything can go flying out the window:D

as ive said most mma fighters look better when they are hitting the pads or air as well

As I said, some haven't internalized their training yet. You have, for example, very good jits or wrestlers who haven't been doing stand-up striking for long yet are still fighting, or stand-up strikers who hit the ground and can't escape a pin (yet you see them doing it in practice). Skill is being able to do in fighting what you do in training. When people can't do in fighting what they do in training, when the training goes out the window, it means they are not very skilled. AS they get better skilled . . .

[HumbleWCGuy]

Tons of stuff has been written on the street vs. sport question/mentality. (The SBGi has asection on it). It is not a "natural dichotomy" as you say but a philosophical dead end. It's a wrong question. It arises when you don't look at things from a skill-based (performance) perspective.

As I see it, WCK is a specific approach to fighting. It provides us a method and the skills (or skillset) to implement that method. As the kuit says, the method comes from the ancestors, the key is adapting it to the circumstances.

What you are saying rings pretty hollow. You are trying to turn me into some sort of a straw man to knock down. I am sorry but the street-sport dichotomy exists irrespective of what you think just as their are obvious differences between cats and dogs. Ring effective isn't the same as street effective although ring effective is a key component street effectiveness. One can have all the attributes and ring skill in the world but it is necessary to have the body of knowledge that gives you the best chance to survive a knife fight, gun attack, multiple attackers, and so on.

let me refer to a concrete example from my own experience where I was just trying to survive the legalities of the situation with 50 witnesses.
Someone who I deem to be a pretty weak fighter attacks me in a drug induced rage because I attempted to break up his fight. What should I do?
1. Beat his face in ring-sport style and risk jail?
2. Use some chin na that would never be useful in a ring setting to incapacitate him util the police arrived?

I chose to stay way on the good side of the law and used chin na.

I could go on.

Now... as I have put it to throughout this thread, please explain to me how I am at a philosophical dead end because I teach chin na which has marginal ring effectiveness as part of my curriculum? Should I ignore the dichotomy and tell my students that they should have no problem getting off standing locks and rudimentary trips against an mma fighter? Should I stop teaching chin na because it isn't ring effective? We practice these techniques with the same intensity that we would our ring techniques, although much of our chin na entries are predicated on using the mistakes that street fighters make.

[Wayfaring]

Now... as I have put it to throughout this thread, please explain to me how I am at a philosophical dead end because I teach chin na which has marginal ring effectiveness as part of my curriculum? Should I ignore the dichotomy and tell my students that they should have no problem getting off standing locks and rudimentary trips against an mma fighter? Should I stop teaching chin na because it isn't ring effective? We practice these techniques with the same intensity that we would our ring techniques, although much of our chin na entries are predicated on using the mistakes that street fighters make.

It sounds like the chin na you practice is like aikido or japanese ju jitsu. Things can be effective, but there is not a delivery system trained to make them work well against live opponents (not of the scrub variety).

If you train things that work well against live opponents, scrubs won't be a consideration at all, and you don't have to practice something different for competant opponents than you do for scrubs.

[Wayfaring]

If someone else were saying this, I would probably agree 85%. But, since, niehoff has such a narrow view. I would have to guess that what he suggests, is just as likely to produce failures.

Yeah, well maybe, but without the niehoff factor this forum is boring as h$ll. All yin and no yang, or other way around or something.

[Lee Chiang Po]

As a young man I did some bouncing and other work that sometimes led to confrontation, and for the most part, I was able to handle it. I never had much problem with stand up fighters or people that wanted to roll. I might not have fared well in a ring with people that daily train for that, but then again, I was no pushover either. I also have black belts in Japanese Jujitsu, and I have used it extensively as well. It is in my opinion far more effective in a fight than what BJJ would be. In my case I was not hindered by ring rules, and I could use any technique I wanted to use. I did not have to stand an wail on somone or have them do me. It makes a great big difference. If you spend your days fighting in the ring, or even if you aspire to do that, you will have to train by the rules of the ring, and in this case you will have to fight others that do the same. you will usually be faces with force against force. If all these other styles of fighting were so good then ANY person training in them would be able to beat Any WC man, or that is what I am hearing. We know that can not be the truth in any event. Just because you roll around on the ring floor with someone does not make you unbeatable.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It sounds like the chin na you practice is like aikido or japanese ju jitsu..
Chin na is expanded version of aikido after all.



Things can be effective, but there is not a delivery system trained to make them work well against live opponents (not of the scrub variety).
If you train things that work well against live opponents, scrubs won't be a consideration at all, and you don't have to practice something different for competent opponents than you do for scrubs.

True in terms of logic but not true in terms reality.

Please, tell us about how you intend to disarm a dog brother with your bare hands? Tell me tell me how you would chicken wing a figher of similar skill to yourself and run him out of a bar? What techniques and delivery system do you have at your disposal to accomplish this task more efficiently than I have seen in 10 years and my massive video library with at least 30 videos on weapons and street fighting?

Sure, we can always apply a kickboxing-style beating to someone and chicken wing them, but it may not meet our goal as an officer of the law, security worker, or decent human being. In addition, to deliver a chin na technique in such a manner against a unskilled opponent, fails to take advantage of an opponent's weakness which is a flawed approach in its own right.

[t_niehoff]

What you are saying rings pretty hollow. You are trying to turn me into some sort of a straw man to knock down. I am sorry but the street-sport dichotomy exists irrespective of what you think just as their are obvious differences between cats and dogs. Ring effective isn't the same as street effective although ring effective is a key component street effectiveness. One can have all the attributes and ring skill in the world but it is necessary to have the body of knowledge that gives you the best chance to survive a knife fight, gun attack, multiple attackers, and so on.


You keep trying to create a dichotomy that isn't there. You could point out that there are differences in all venues of fighting -- the cage is different than the ring, for example. You try to point out that emptyhand fighting doesn't prepare you for weapons -- well, duh!



let me refer to a concrete example from my own experience where I was just trying to survive the legalities of the situation with 50 witnesses.
Someone who I deem to be a pretty weak fighter attacks me in a drug induced rage because I attempted to break up his fight. What should I do?
1. Beat his face in ring-sport style and risk jail?
2. Use some chin na that would never be useful in a ring setting to incapacitate him util the police arrived?

I chose to stay way on the good side of the law and used chin na.


Why spend the time learning and training something that is - by your own admission - not sound so that you can use that against scrubs and then spend time training stuff that is sound that you can use against good people? Why not just train sound, solid fundamental fighting skills? If you are a trained, skilled grappler, you could restrain someone - particularly a drunk scrub - without beating in his face. You don't need crap like chin na to do that.



I could go on.

Now... as I have put it to throughout this thread, please explain to me how I am at a philosophical dead end because I teach chin na which has marginal ring effectiveness as part of my curriculum?


In wrestling they have a term "junk". Junk is stuff that works at a certain level of wrestling but fails at higher levels. All competitive activities have this. It's the stuff that works not because it is good, solid stuff (which will work against anyone) but because your opponent is poor. What you are essentially asking is why not train junk?

The simple answer is becase you don't need it (if you have the good stuff).



Should I ignore the dichotomy and tell my students that they should have no problem getting off standing locks and rudimentary trips against an mma fighter? Should I stop teaching chin na because it isn't ring effective? We practice these techniques with the same intensity that we would our ring techniques, although much of our chin na entries are predicated on using the mistakes that street fighters make.

There are several problems with junk. One of which is that it begins with an assumption that your opponent is a scrub -- in other words, you begin by underestimating him. Do you think this is a good idea on "the streets"? What if you assume he is a scrub, try your junk and find out the guy has had some training -- now the junk has put you in a bad place (you are doing something silly against someone who knows what he is doing). Why not start with the assumption that he is good, that he will have skills, and go from there? As I said, you can do the same things with good, sound stuff as you can with junk.

[Wayfaring]

Please, tell us about how you intend to disarm a dog brother with your bare hands? Tell me tell me how you would chicken wing a figher of similar skill to yourself and run him out of a bar? What techniques and delivery system do you have at your disposal to accomplish this task more efficiently than I have seen in 10 years and my massive video library with at least 30 videos on weapons and street fighting?

Actually the combination of BJJ with JJJ is a good one. I know several BJJ black belts that have high level aikido / jjj locks. That way you have a delivery system to go with the locks that works on people that aren't scrubs or unskilled drunks in a bar. Sambo, sub wrestling, etc. - find people who compete with it to train with.

As far as dog brothers, ask Dale / Knifefighter. He posts on here, and is a dog brother.

And seriously, WTF is a chicken wing? Is it some deadly submission hold I need to be afraid of? Fear th3 ch1cken wing?



Sure, we can always apply a kickboxing-style beating to someone and chicken wing them, but it may not meet our goal as an officer of the law, security worker, or decent human being. In addition, to deliver a chin na technique in such a manner against a unskilled opponent, fails to take advantage of an opponent's weakness which is a flawed approach in its own right.
Skilled grappling is always better IMO in a peace officer application. Again, a skilled delivery system WITH aikido / jjj / chin na is the way to go. That way you can train and refine what really works live.

[goju]

And seriously, WTF is a chicken wing? Is it some deadly submission hold I need to be afraid of? Fear th3 ch1cken wing?

we all fear the chicken wing
:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wayfaring and Niehoff,
Neither of you are providing any specifics which is why I call your arguments hollow. I provided logic for my position supported with realistic examples. All either of you have done is tell me that I am wrong and not back it up with anything other than vague claims about what someone can supposedly do. It's interesting that niehoff says that chin na is not worthwhile, yet i have used it to great effect on a number of occasions. Moreover, I must tell both of you that it is no different than any other standing grappling that I have seen.

[Knifefighter]

Wayfaring and Niehoff,
Neither of you are providing any specifics which is why I call your arguments hollow. I provided logic for my position supported with realistic examples. All either of you have done is tell me that I am wrong and not back it up with anything other than vague claims about what someone can supposedly do. It's interesting that niehoff says that chin na is not worthwhile, yet i have used it to great effect on a number of occasions. Moreover, I must tell both of you that it is no different than any other standing grappling that I have seen.

So you are using chi na as a controlling method and not a locking/finishing method?

Because that is what realistic standup grappling is. Either a means to control an opponent (i.e. under/over hooks, handfighting, biceps control, etc) or as a means to set up a takedown.

Trying to lock/finish an opponent will standing is one of the lowest percentage things you can do.

[Knifefighter]

Please, tell us about how you intend to disarm a dog brother with your bare hands?
Stickfighting experience + BJJ = easy disarms.


Tell me tell me how you would chicken wing a figher of similar skill to yourself and run him out of a bar?
If you are trying to use chicken wing while standing, you are pretty clueless.



What techniques and delivery system do you have at your disposal to accomplish this task more efficiently than I have seen in 10 years and my massive video library with at least 30 videos on weapons and street fighting?

The techniques done in most MMA fights are 10x more effective than the ones you are talking about.

[goju]

chin na was intended to be used to break the bone or tear the muscle etcetc not to subdue someone or make them tap

[Knifefighter]

chin na was intended to be used to break the bone or tear the muscle etcetc not to subdue someone or make them tap

Unfortunately, they don't work the way they were intended.

[goju]

Unfortunately, they don't work the way they were intended.
oh yes i forgot you were an ex chin na master lol

[Knifefighter]

oh yes i forgot you were an ex chin na master lol

I guarantee you I am more of a chi na master than 99.9% of CMA chi na "masters" out there.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Knifefighter is correct about chi na.

[goju]

I guarantee you I am more of a chi na master than 99.9% of CMA chi na "masters" out there.
perhaps on the ground but ive seen bjj standing locks and all i gotta say is lol
:D

[Knifefighter]

perhaps on the ground but ive seen bjj standing locks and all i gotta say is lol
:D

Like all standing locks, any standing lock you see in BJJ is going to be very low percentage. The difference is most guys in BJJ know those locks don't work and are mainly used for marketing purposes.

[goju]

Like all standing locks, any standing lock you see in BJJ is going to be very low percentage. The difference is most guys in BJJ know those locks don't work and are mainly used for marketing purposes.

the bjj locks dont work at all if your flexible even just somewhat flexible and is a perfect example of bad chin na

[Knifefighter]

the bjj locks dont work at all if your flexible even just somewhat flexible and is a perfect example of bad chin na

LOL... nice try trollboy.

[goju]

LOL... nice try trollboy.
unlike some people i speak on things i know about i was taught those bjj standing locks and i was put in them they dont work at all unless your possibly made of tin are possibly suffering from rigor mortis
and they are based on the presumption your opponent wont punch or attack you while your trying to lock and to make it worse they dont have transitions such as strikes or throws if the lock fails hence it being very horrible chin na:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Stickfighting experience + BJJ = easy disarms.


If you are trying to use chicken wing while standing, you are pretty clueless.




The techniques done in most MMA fights are 10x more effective than the ones you are talking about.

Pretty weak claims on all accounts which is what I would expect really. Little more than smack talk.

[HumbleWCGuy]

chin na was intended to be used to break the bone or tear the muscle etcetc not to subdue someone or make them tap
It is great for both! It only works as a method to subdue because one can destroy bones and such.

[Knifefighter]

unlike some people i speak on things i know about i was taught those bjj standing locks and i was put in them they dont work at all unless your possibly made of tin are possibly suffering from rigor mortis
and they are based on the presumption your opponent wont punch or attack you while your trying to lock and to make it worse they dont have transitions such as strikes or throws if the lock fails hence it being very horrible chin na:D

LOL... go back and study for your high school GED so you can learn how to read.

Of course they don't work. Every serious BJJ practitioner knows this. They are used for marketing and for stealing the money of smarta$$ guys like you who don't want to do hard training, but come in looking for "secret" techniques.

[Knifefighter]

ac tually thats not always true ive seen plenty of countdown to ufc episodes where the show the figthers throwing crisps neat combos with their hands up during training and pad work and when they fight they are swinging wildly and leaving their hands down:D

Exactly... and this is part of what makes competition so important. The more you do, the closer you get to being able to use it well under pressure.

[goju]

LOL... go back and study for your high school GED so you can learn how to read.

Of course they don't work. Every serious BJJ practitioner knows this. They are used for marketing and for stealing the money of smarta$$ guys like you who don't want to do hard training, but come in looking for "secret" techniques.

dale settle down we dont need you to have a another foaming at the mouth heart attack like last time:D

i dont want to do hard training? lol thats funny because people that have seen your vids said your slopppy with so so stand up

but yeah i guess youre in position to tell other people they dont train hard

:D

[Knifefighter]

dale settle down we dont need you to have a another foaming at the mouth heart attack like last time:D

i dotn want to do hard training? lol thats funny because form people that have seen your vids said your slopppy with so so stand up

but yeah i guess your in position to tell other people they dont train hard

:D

Well, let's see... I've been training and competing in BJJ for over 15 years now. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of who gets taught the b.s. standup stuff and who does the hard training.

I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what camp you fell into. I'm betting your parents paid for your training, right?

[Kansuke]

Exactly... and this is part of what makes competition so important. The more you do, the closer you get to being able to use it well under pressure.


Good point.

[Phil Redmond]

Exactly... and this is part of what makes competition so important. The more you do, the closer you get to being able to use it well under pressure.
On the money, though I competed in the 80's I do know the adrenalin rush during the fight, being able to continue after receiving a good blow (I got hit by Jonas Nunez in 1986 so hard that I heard the audience go oooooo), how to maintain breath control/stamina under pressure, etc. You only get to know these things by competing against people outside of your school/friend comfort zone.

[goju]

Well, let's see... I've been training and competing in BJJ for over 15 years now. I'd say I have a pretty good idea of who gets taught the b.s. standup stuff and who does the hard training.

I'd say I have a pretty good idea of what camp you fell into. I'm betting your parents paid for your training, right?

the gentleman i studied under learned directly from royce gracie :D


dude i hate to break it to you but youve only had a few fights and you have a ufc champion size ego and for being in the martial arts for as long as you have its not saying much when your skill is described as " okay" or "sloppy"

now i know at your height gentleman like yourself are prone to a napoleon complex but your ego has gotten pretty old by now:D

and since we are speculating on here about each other i thought i add a bit of my own thoughts

personally i think youre disgruntled because youre not a well known fighter and at your age its impossible for you to ever become one

i think you have hard time dealing with this and have thus become a very bitter human being who feels the need to attack other martial artists and styles so you can try to feel better about your own competition record and skill:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

personally i think youre disgruntled because youre not a well known fighter and at your age its impossible for you to ever become one

i think you have hard time dealing with this and have thus become a very bitter human being who feels the need to attack other martial artists and styles so you can try to feel better about your own competition record and skill:D

I get the sense that everybody who goes on too much about MMA and training methods is probably disgruntled. Today, it is almost a given that one must train attributes, and develop timing in a progressive manner. If one insists that the ring tells them everything that their is about fighting, THIS is not the correct board for them because ring fighting is not the sum of WCK. I have laughed at people for going on 20 years about their archaic training methods and the importance of the lessons of ring fighting, but people like niehoff and apparently knifefighter now have take a basic truths that come from ring sports training and droned so heavily about them that I am starting to question the soundness of peoples training in the other direction. This is a very narrow and vapid perspective.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One of my favorite scenes in a movie comes from Rocky Five. Tommy Gun rips Rocky for not wanting to get into the ring and Rocky finally says something like, "Yo Tommy, my ring is outside." Through the whole movie we learn that Tommy has the better ring skills being younger and stronger, but we know that Rocky is going to use his expanded skill set honed in the mean streets of Philly to win. I


know that it's just a movie, but I can say from experience, if your mindset is ring, ring, ring, you are only partially ready for what is waiting for you in the street.

[t_niehoff]

Wayfaring and Niehoff,
Neither of you are providing any specifics which is why I call your arguments hollow. I provided logic for my position supported with realistic examples. All either of you have done is tell me that I am wrong and not back it up with anything other than vague claims about what someone can supposedly do. It's interesting that niehoff says that chin na is not worthwhile, yet i have used it to great effect on a number of occasions. Moreover, I must tell both of you that it is no different than any other standing grappling that I have seen.

Your argument is essentially "I got away with it" so it must be good. Go back and read what I wrote about junk. Junk "works" -- but it works not because it is solid or sound but because your opponent is really bad. It own't work against someone with solid fundamental skills or someoeone with good attributes. If you want evidence of that, go to a good MMA gym and try your chin na. Basing your method on junk is training to fail (since it will only work to a certain, low level).

Chin na is not like greco, it's not like judo (two other standing grappling methods) -- both of those rely on solid, sound fundamentals, stuff that has consistently worked against the best grapplers in the world.

[t_niehoff]

I get the sense that everybody who goes on too much about MMA and training methods is probably disgruntled.


That's another ad hominem attack -- don't listen to them, they are "disgruntled."

I only speak for myself, but I am motivated by trying to get better, to perform better. The primary thing in getting better and performing better -- regardless of your art -- is HOW you train. To determine how to best train, it only makes sense to look to people with proven high levels of skill and performance (since they must be doing something right), and see how they train. Also we need to look at those training methods across populations.

What we see over and over again is that the modern, sport-based model of training (which takes a skill-oriented view) consistently produces very good results. Moreover, their results are consistent with what we klnow today (from science) on how the human body best learns and develops psycho-motor skills.



Today, it is almost a given that one must train attributes, and develop timing in a progressive manner. If one insists that the ring tells them everything that their is about fighting,


Fighting (WCK) attributes, and especially timing, are only developed to a significant degree BY fighting.

It's not the "ring", it is that you are fighting (practicing the skill you are trying to develop) and, equally important, you are practicing that (fighting) against very good (skilled) fighters. That's how you get better.

Good fighters will show you your mistakes, they will show you when your stuff is junk, etc.



THIS is not the correct board for them because ring fighting is not the sum of WCK. I have laughed at people for going on 20 years about their archaic training methods and the importance of the lessons of ring fighting, but people like niehoff and apparently knifefighter now have take a basic truths that come from ring sports training and droned so heavily about them that I am starting to question the soundness of peoples training in the other direction. This is a very narrow and vapid perspective.

The WCK curriculum, the forms, classical drills, etc.,will teach you the WCK movement, skills, etc. But they don't-- and can't -- teach you to apply those movement/skills, to fight with them. You can only learn and develop that (application) by fighting. It's the same with any combative activity, method, sport, etc. That being the case, IF we want to develop our application (fighting) skill, we need to seek out good (skilled) fighters to train (spar) with. You can call that a "narrow perspective" if you like, but it is the ONLY road that will take you to fighting competence and beyond.

[goju]

That's another ad hominem attack -- don't listen to them, they are "disgruntled."

I only speak for myself, but I am motivated by trying to get better, to perform better. The primary thing in getting better and performing better -- regardless of your art -- is HOW you train. To determine how to best train, it only makes sense to look to people with proven high levels of skill and performance (since they must be doing something right), and see how they train. Also we need to look at those training methods across populations.

What we see over and over again is that the modern, sport-based model of training (which takes a skill-oriented view) consistently produces very good results. Moreover, their results are consistent with what we klnow today (from science) on how the human body best learns and develops psycho-motor skills.



Fighting (WCK) attributes, and especially timing, are only developed to a significant degree BY fighting.

It's not the "ring", it is that you are fighting (practicing the skill you are trying to develop) and, equally important, you are practicing that (fighting) against very good (skilled) fighters. That's how you get better.

Good fighters will show you your mistakes, they will show you when your stuff is junk, etc.



The WCK curriculum, the forms, classical drills, etc.,will teach you the WCK movement, skills, etc. But they don't-- and can't -- teach you to apply those movement/skills, to fight with them. You can only learn and develop that (application) by fighting. It's the same with any combative activity, method, sport, etc. That being the case, IF we want to develop our application (fighting) skill, we need to seek out good (skilled) fighters to train (spar) with. You can call that a "narrow perspective" if you like, but it is the ONLY road that will take you to fighting competence and beyond.
the reason why some people may view you and dale as disgruntled is because you were former traditional martial artists

many current mma practioners used to do tma and they either werent very good at it or in most often cases were spanked really badly by a boxer or mt stylist or whatever and all the sudden they poo poo all tma and jump on the mma bandwagon and feel the need to attack other people who continue to practice their arts
:D

[punchdrunk]

I don't think training in BJJ or MT or anything else for that matter makes you automatically disgruntled former TCMA. I think more people should go out and try new methods and ideas, and spar or train with other schools. Even TCMA had exchanges either from sparring, demo's, or exchanging methods and training with other schools.
It get's annoying to read the same thing over and over... but the point is true. To get ability and skill you must perform the task under as realistic pressure as possible. Wanna learn to stop someone from shooting in and taking you down, you better train with someone who can shoot in and take you down. Think your punches are good for knocking people out? Better get out there and knock some heads to find the truth.
Otherwise you might as well larp and theorize about chi cause without experience your just theorizing about fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't think training in BJJ or MT or anything else for that matter makes you automatically disgruntled former TCMA. I think more people should go out and try new methods and ideas, and spar or train with other schools. Even TCMA had exchanges either from sparring, demo's, or exchanging methods and training with other schools.
It get's annoying to read the same thing over and over... but the point is true. To get ability and skill you must perform the task under as realistic pressure as possible. Wanna learn to stop someone from shooting in and taking you down, you better train with someone who can shoot in and take you down. Think your punches are good for knocking people out? Better get out there and knock some heads to find the truth.
Otherwise you might as well larp and theorize about chi cause without experience your just theorizing about fighting.

Agreed, expanding your horizons and honing your training methods does not mean that you are disgruntled. I am the first to say that if your school does not have the opportunity for grappling training, a healthy dose of bag and mitt training, progressive drills that build sparring ability, and a healthy does of sparring, you must seek it out. Disgruntled is about having an irrational hatred of traditional and irrational liking for the modern.

[m1k3]

Disgruntled is about having an irrational hatred of traditional and irrational liking for the modern.

Hahahahahahaha! I suppose that you prefer blood letting and leeches to modern medicine. Perhaps you live in a mud hut because that's how the ancients did it. Modern training methods work better than traditional. That is why olympic athletes and modern militaries are constantly improving the way they train. They are interested in results plain and simple.

[goju]

^ sigh your assuming a lot with that statement

actual tma advocated training ideology that is largely used to day

:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hahahahahahaha! I suppose that you prefer blood letting and leeches to modern medicine. Perhaps you live in a mud hut because that's how the ancients did it. Modern training methods work better than traditional. That is why olympic athletes and modern militaries are constantly improving the way they train. They are interested in results plain and simple.

Interesting because I never said such a thing anywhere at any time against improving ones training. You took one sentence out of context and made a straw man out of it. Albeit, not a very good straw man. I am not speaking against the modern, I am speaking against people who irrationally dismiss the old.

[Knifefighter]

One of my favorite scenes in a movie comes from Rocky Five. Tommy Gun rips Rocky for not wanting to get into the ring and Rocky finally says something like, "Yo Tommy, my ring is outside." Through the whole movie we learn that Tommy has the better ring skills being younger and stronger, but we know that Rocky is going to use his expanded skill set honed in the mean streets of Philly to win. I


know that it's just a movie, but I can say from experience, if your mindset is ring, ring, ring, you are only partially ready for what is waiting for you in the street.

LOL @ thinking your pretend training is going to prepare you for "teh str33t".

The ring is not everything, but it is far better than the pretend training that 99.9% of all TMA practitioners do.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL @ thinking your pretend training is going to prepare you for "teh str33t".

The ring is not everything, but it is far better than the pretend training that 99.9% of all TMA practitioners do.

I was thinking the same about you. LOL I hurt your little feelings and exposed how ridiculous you are. That's classic.

[Knifefighter]

Why would my feelings be hurt by some clueless, anonymous WC guy on a message board?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Why would my feelings be hurt by some clueless, anonymous WC guy on a message board?

anonymous Yes! as are you. Clueless no. I am sure that you can't handle being wrong which you obviously are. You haven't made a case based on logic or technique. All you have managed to do is provide us with some vague generalities. Now you are just angry because you have been exposed as a disgruntled ex-WC practitioner who doesn't have a clue about integrating his previous WC training with modern training.

[Knifefighter]

anonymous Yes! as are you. Clueless no. I am sure that you can't handle being wrong which you obviously are. You haven't made a case based on logic or technique. All you have managed to do is provide us with some vague generalities. Now you are just angry because you have been exposed as a disgruntled ex-WC practitioner who doesn't have a clue about integrating his previous WC training with modern training.

Actually, I've integrated WC into training for 30 years now. The difference between you and I is that I have mixed it up full contact in boxing, kick-boxing, wrestling, stick fighting, nhb challenge matches, MMA, street fighting, and BJJ/sub-grappling so I actually have extensive experience with what works in various environments and what doesn't work.

Unlike you, I've done both the ring and the street so I know what works in each, what doesn't, and what is transferable between one and the other.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Actually, I've integrated WC into training for 30 years now. The difference between you and I is that I have mixed it up full contact in boxing, kick-boxing, wrestling, stick fighting, nhb challenge matches, MMA, street fighting, and BJJ/sub-grappling so I actually have extensive experience with what works in various environments and what doesn't work.

Unlike you, I've done both the ring and the street so I know what works in each, what doesn't, and what is transferable between one and the other.

Same here, I am just not a crybaby.

[Knifefighter]

Same here, I am just not a crybaby.

Really? You have extensive competition experience? Please expound on that.

Actually, you are a crybaby with the way you go on and on about how the ring is not the street when nobody even said it was in the first place.

[goju]

yes everyone knows who dale franks is
...uh

:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Really? You have extensive competition experience? Please expound on that.

Actually, you are a crybaby with the way you go on and on about how the ring is not the street when nobody even said it was in the first place.

I would be happy to just as soon as you make a reasonable case for you points. From what I understand, a lot of your debates come down to you trying to lay out your resume, but what I would like is for you to address my points with a reasonable level of specificity instead of acting like I give a rats about your insults and tough talk.

[t_niehoff]

I would be happy to just as soon as you make a reasonable case for you points.


Well, I have made a reasonable case for the same thing Dale is saying. When you train good, solid fundamentals you don't need junk, as junk is only training to fail.

Your whole argument basically boils down to 1) fighting on the street is different than fighting in a ring (yeah, we know - but good solid fundamentals will work anywhere); and 2) you've been able to pull of junk against scrubs (yeah,we know - but so what? learning and practicing unsound junk only takes time away from the practice of the good, solid stuff, is self-limiting, and starts with underestimating your opponent).

Then when this is pointed out, you begin with ad hominem attacks (I'm only saying this because I am "disgruntled"). No, I am only saying these things because they have have been proved over and over again.

Good, solid fundamental fighting skills will work anywhere: on the street, in the gym, in the ring, etc. OK, but how can we know what is and is not good, solid fundamentals? By looking at what works against really good fighters -- since you're not going to be able to make junk work against them. Working/saprring with proven, good people exposes crap. This isn't rocket science, this is true in any sport or athletic activity.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have never written a single sentence against a strong program to develop fundamentals in the manner practiced by mma fighters as I am a believer in that style of training. If I lived in your town, I would probably be at your gyms training.

Here is my point. If you practice WC trapping at all then you practice junk techniques. Very few traps work very consistently against crisp punches but how nice are they against stiff karateka and street fighters?

[m1k3]

Interesting because I never said such a thing anywhere at any time against improving ones training. You took one sentence out of context and made a straw man out of it. Albeit, not a very good straw man. I am not speaking against the modern, I am speaking against people who irrationally dismiss the old.

Sorry but I have to disagree. In your original quote:[QUOTE] Disgruntled is about having an irrational hatred of traditional and irrational liking for the modern./QUOTE] you are presenting them as being different. Yet traditional techniques for training that work are are carried forward into a modern program. They are carried forward simply because they are proven to work and for no other reason. If they have not been carried forward in modern training programs it is because they are not particularly effective or something better has replaced them. I don't find anything 'irrational' in that process.

There are too many schools that train the way they do simply because that is the way it was always done, or if it was good enough for [name grand master here] its good enough for me.

[t_niehoff]

I have never written a single sentence against a strong program to develop fundamentals in the manner practiced by mma fighters as I am a believer in that style of training. If I lived in your town, I would probably be at your gyms training.


I never said that you did. But certainly chin na is not a solid, fundamentally sound method. And my point is that if you learn and develop fundamentally sound stuff, you don't need junk and wouldn't want to waste your time practicing that stuff (even though you may be able to use it against scrubs).



Here is my point. If you practice WC trapping at all then you practice junk techniques. Very few traps work very consistently against crisp punches but how nice are they against stiff karateka and street fighters?

Lots of people teach and practice all kinds of unrealsitic things. That's why I started this thread with "If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail."

[HumbleWCGuy]

Sorry but I have to disagree. In your original quote:[QUOTE] Disgruntled is about having an irrational hatred of traditional and irrational liking for the modern./QUOTE] you are presenting them as being different. Yet traditional techniques for training that work are are carried forward into a modern program. They are carried forward simply because they are proven to work and for no other reason. If they have not been carried forward in modern training programs it is because they are not particularly effective or something better has replaced them. I don't find anything 'irrational' in that process.

There are too many schools that train the way they do simply because that is the way it was always done, or if it was good enough for [name grand master here] its good enough for me.

That statement is a definition for a type of person not a statement against the modern. I agree with what you are saying about techniques being carried forward from the old into the new training format. That has to be true because many techniques are as old as fighting. My view is that the disgruntled person irrationally dislikes techniques from arts that haven't made transition into a modern format. It's easy enough to pluck techniques out of the traditional format and train them in a modern way but for some reason that doesn't happen.


Also, I see a lot of chin na in the phillipino knife fighting disarms, but because Ron Balicki did it, it was, "good stuff!" If some random Chinese master did the same thing, "it's crap!"

[HumbleWCGuy]

Lots of people teach and practice all kinds of unrealsitic things. That's why I started this thread with "If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail."

To be honest, irrespective of the techniques that I am practicing, I have never used a traditional style one step sparring or stiff training. I have always trained out of movement and strove to make whatever techniques that I am training as effective as possible. Forms might be the exception.

Sure I have a few traps that I like and can pull out on anybody along with certain chin na techniques. I just try to be honest with myself and my students. I tell them that as of yet certain things seem to work best against less skilled opponents, but I want to teach it to you because there is too much payoff to not have it in that environment.

[t_niehoff]

To be honest, irrespective of the techniques that I am practicing, I have never used a traditional style one step sparring or stiff training. I have always trained out of movement and strove to make whatever techniques that I am training as effective as possible. Forms might be the exception.


That's good -- but using "alive" training is only half of it; equally important is the qulaity (skill level, attributes) of the people you are training with (sparring). The latter seems to be something often overlooked. Training good stuff (like BJJ for example) with realistic training (rolling) is great, but you need to do that with skilled grapplers,



Sure I have a few traps that I like and can pull out on anybody along with certain chin na techniques. I just try to be honest with myself and my students.


Here's the thing, if you are realistically training (sparring) against skilled people, you don't need to be honest -- in fact, no one, including your students, needs to even know your views: they can see for themselves what works and what doesn't work.

This is one of my favorite posts from one of my favorite blogs:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bull****-meter/ (apparently bullsh1t spelled correctly needs to be in the link to work and this forum won't let me post that -- so manually change it)

He begins with, "I always tell students that anywhere from 5 to 95 % of what I say and teach in class is bullsh1t. It’s their job to sort that out for themselves."

Exactly!



I tell them that as of yet certain things seem to work best against less skilled opponents, but I want to teach it to you because there is too much payoff to not have it in that environment.

You still don't seem to grasp that good, solid fundamentals work - and work consistently, reliably -- in any realistic environment. The payoff for junk is NOT superior to solid stuff, it's considerably less. Junk isn't better for the "street", junk only works on the street because your opponent MAY have little skill or be surprised. But solid fundamentals work better on the street too for the same reasons. The difference is, however, that solid fundamentals don't RELY on those factors.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's good -- but using "alive" training is only half of it; equally important is the qulaity (skill level, attributes) of the people you are training with (sparring). The latter seems to be something often overlooked. Training good stuff (like BJJ for example) with realistic training (rolling) is great, but you need to do that with skilled grapplers,
Since I have already explained that I have competed and won full-contact events in the past, I could not imagine what would make you think I would feel otherwise. I would be nervous about calling bjj rolling realistic. It is realistic to a point. Every mma fighter knows bjj but not every bjj black belt is a fighter. Eddie Bravo might be a good example.



Here's the thing, if you are realistically training (sparring) against skilled people, you don't need to be honest -- in fact, no one, including your students, needs to even know your views: they can see for themselves what works and what doesn't work.

I teach situational fighting very heavily. Because I have done so much full-contact sparring, had 10-15 full contact kickboxing matches, and a massive tape library, I always try to point people in the right direction for application. Although they are encouraged to find their own path.



This is one of my favorite posts from one of my favorite blogs:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/bull****-meter/ (apparently bullsh1t spelled correctly needs to be in the link to work and this forum won't let me post that -- so manually change it)

He begins with, "I always tell students that anywhere from 5 to 95 % of what I say and teach in class is bullsh1t. It’s their job to sort that out for themselves."

Exactly!

That's an interesting quote.



You still don't seem to grasp that good, solid fundamentals work - and work consistently, reliably -- in any realistic environment. The payoff for junk is NOT superior to solid stuff, it's considerably less. Junk isn't better for the "street", junk only works on the street because your opponent MAY have little skill or be surprised. But solid fundamentals work better on the street too for the same reasons. The difference is, however, that solid fundamentals don't RELY on those factors.

I grasp it fully, but I also know that techniques that attempt to arrest a standing opponents limbs are for the most part are junk. If you believe otherwise, then I would have to call into question the realism of your training, specifically, your sparring partners of choice.

[t_niehoff]

Since I have already explained that I have competed and won full-contact events in the past, I could not imagine what would make you think I would feel otherwise. Although, I would be nervous about calling bjj rolling realistic. Every mma fighter knows bjj but not every bjj black belt is much of a fighter. Eddie Bravo might be a good example.


Great, so you are a good kickboxer. I never said you weren't.

Fighting is simply when you face a genuinely resisting opponent (he is fighting you) not a ruleset. Rolling is fighting. Wrestling is fighting. The ruleset just focuses the fighting by limiting what you can do.

You're "nervous" about calling BJJ rolling realistic since you haven't put in any significant time rolling with good BJJ people. Hit the ground with some good BJJ people and you'll quickly see how realistic it is.



I teach situational fighting very heavily. Because I have done so much full-contact sparring and had 10-15 full contact kickboxing matches, and a massive tape library. I always try to point people in the right direction. Although they are encouraged to find their own path.


You don't need to point people in any direction -- just show them the fundamental skills (the stuff you see consistently working in sparring), let them practice using them (spar) against good people, and get out of the way.

Why is fighting any different that other athletic activities or sports?



That's an interesting quite.


Words to live by.



I grasp it fully, but I also know that techniques that attempt to arrest a standing opponents limbs are for the most part junk. If you believe otherwise, then I would have to call into question the realism of your training.

If you grasp that fully, then I question why you would say things like "I tell them that as of yet certain things seem to work best against less skilled opponents, but I want to teach it to you because there is too much payoff to not have it in that environment." Here is junk but I want to teach it to you because there is too much a payoff not to have junk? That doesn't make sense if you grasp that the payoff for good, solid stuff is much greater (it works even easier against the poorly skilled).

I don't know what you are talking about with "arresting" a standing opponent's limbs -- for me, WCK's approach is to control your opponent while striking him. I'm not trying to "arrest" his limbs.

[Knifefighter]

To be honest, irrespective of the techniques that I am practicing, I have never used a traditional style one step sparring or stiff training. I have always trained out of movement and strove to make whatever techniques that I am training as effective as possible. Forms might be the exception.

Sure I have a few traps that I like and can pull out on anybody along with certain chin na techniques. I just try to be honest with myself and my students. I tell them that as of yet certain things seem to work best against less skilled opponents, but I want to teach it to you because there is too much payoff to not have it in that environment.

Why would you teach "certain things that work best against less skilled opponents?"

It makes no sense to have one set of techniques that are used against skilled opponents and another set of techs to use against the less skilled. By the time you have figured out whether or not to pull out the "skilled" or "unskilled" techs, a skilled guy will have handed you your a$$.

Makes a lot more sense to teach high percentage, highly effective techniques that work against everyone.

[Knifefighter]

Since I have already explained that I have competed and won full-contact events in the past, I could not imagine what would make you think I would feel otherwise.

Really? Which events?


I would be nervous about calling bjj rolling realistic. It is realistic to a point. Every mma fighter knows bjj but not every bjj black belt is a fighter. Eddie Bravo might be a good example. .

BJJ vale tudo is realistic. BJJ, non-striking, non-weapons based rolling is only realistic in that it is a subset of what will be used in a real environment.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You're "nervous" about calling BJJ rolling realistic since you haven't put in any significant time rolling with good BJJ people. Hit the ground with some good BJJ people and you'll quickly see how realistic it is.
Just the opposite. It is good training, but only real to a point. Hence the stories of brown belts who win tournaments but can't fight their way out of a wet paper sack on the street or mma.



You don't need to point people in any direction -- just show them the fundamental skills (the stuff you see consistently working in sparring), let them practice using them (spar) against good people, and get out of the way.

They develop faster if I give them a context for which to use techniques prior to sparring. I like to get them out of the "tough man phase" as quickly as possible.



Why is fighting any different that other athletic activities or sports?

Situational fighting is about decision making. When to use a technique. As far as other sports, I played basketball and football. My coaches were always concerned with my decision. Ever played zone or help-out man to man defense in basketball? I would be shocked if your BJJ instructor hasn't scouted an opponent at a tournament and given you some advice.




Words to live by.

Yea, no matter how much advice I give it is always up to the person.



If you grasp that fully, then I question why you would say things like "I tell them that as of yet certain things seem to work best against less skilled opponents, but I want to teach it to you because there is too much payoff to not have it in that environment." Here is junk but I want to teach it to you because there is too much a payoff not to have junk? That doesn't make sense if you grasp that the payoff for good, solid stuff is much greater (it works even easier against the poorly skilled). since we are primarily discussing various wrist and arm locks from the standing position I will pull from Paul Vunack, standing locks are, "incidental if not accidental." As a matter of probability they come up a lot more often in street fights, bouncing, and police work because of the nature of the opponents. Against a skilled fighter you don't want to force it. Against a weaker opponent you can impose your will better and take advantage of the niceties of standing grappling.



I don't know what you are talking about with "arresting" a standing opponent's limbs -- for me, WCK's approach is to control your opponent while striking him. I'm not trying to "arrest" his limbs.
Isn't this just one of your semantic games?

[HumbleWCGuy]

980647Really? Which events?

This has been some time ago 15 years, but I competed in several local/regional kickboxing events. I quit competing because I had a severe back injury which prevented me from running. Unfortunately, I am in the Midwest so I didn't have the benefit of competing in any league or anything. They were one night tournaments and such. I came on top in a few 15 man tournaments and such so take that however you want. If this matters, I trained at a very rough school. I trained in the kwoon 5-7 hours per week with 1-3 hours of round robin full-contact sparring. It was a real trial by fire place.



BJJ vale tudo is realistic. BJJ, non-striking, non-weapons based rolling is only realistic in that it is a subset of what will be used in a real environment.

I agree 100%

[t_niehoff]

Just the opposite. It is good training, but only real to a point. Hence the stories of brown belts who win tournaments but can't fight their way out of a wet paper sack on the street or mma.


There is no such thing as "real to a point." It is either realistic (corresponds to reality) or not. Rolling (BJJ) is realistic grappling on the ground. There are no strikes, but this is added for vale tudo BJJ. Even without the strikes, you are behaving realistically -- just as in kickboxing you are behaving realistically even though you don't have grappling.

I don'tknow what stories you're listening to, but you won't find a legit brown who can't fight. They may have poor stand-up but if they hit the ground, they will be GOOD. To seefor yourself, go to a BJJ school.



They develop faster if I give them a context for which to use techniques prior to sparring. I like to get them out of the "tough man phase" as quickly as possible.


You can't teach technique without context (otherwise you are simply teaching movement).



Situational fighting is about decision making. When to use a technique. As far as other sports, I played basketball and football. My coaches were always concerned with my decision. Ever played zone or help-out man to man defense in basketball? I would be shocked if your BJJ instructor hasn't scouted an opponent at a tournament and given you some advice.


Sure, it involves decision making -- and learning to make your own decisions. Much, much too often people who can't do it themselves are telling others how to do it, what decisions to make.



Yea, no matter how much advice I give it is always up to the person.


That's afine sentiment, but unfortunately not realistic. Unless you have someone who is naturally critical (like me!) or unless you consistently tell people that what you teach is 5-95% bullsh1t and they need to figure out for themselves what is or is not BS, people are naturally inclined to follow the leader.



since we are primarily discussing various wrist and arm locks from the standing position I will pull from Paul Vunack, standing locks are, "incidental if not accidental."


Paul is simply wrong. And that's why you never see him pulling off those things in sparring. A better way of saying it is "standing locks are junk", extremely low percentage and high risk techniques.



As a matter of probability they come up a lot more often in street fights, bouncing, and police work because of the nature of the opponents. Against a skilled fighter you don't want to force it. Against a weaker opponent you can impose your will better and take advantage of the niceties of standing grappling.


As both Dale and I have pointed out, if you try this junk and your opponent has good attributes, has some training, or is just naturally good, then not only will your attempt at the junk fail, but you will -- by not using good, solid, sound technique in the first place -- put yourself in an extremely precarious position. In my book, this is simply training to fail. One mistake -- like assuming your opponent is no good and trying some nonsense -- can be the end of game. If you grappled, standing or on the ground, with good people you would know that.



Isn't this just one of your semantic games?

Like I said, I don't know what you mean by "arresting" someone's limbs. As I said, my objective (the WCK faat) is to control an opponent while striking him. That has nothing to do with "arresting" a limb -- certainly I will push, pull, jerk, jam, hold, etc. a limb to aid in that control. That's nothing unique to WCK, you can see that in some MMA and MT fights.

[HumbleWCGuy]

niehoff,
You are playing semantics and waffling, just to keep the argument going.

[Knifefighter]

This has been some time ago 15 years, but I competed in several local/regional kickboxing events. I quit competing because I had a severe back injury which prevented me from running. Unfortunately, I am in the Midwest so I didn't have the benefit of competing in any league or anything. They were one night tournaments and such. I came on top in a few 15 man tournaments and such so take that however you want. If this matters, I trained at a very rough school. I trained in the kwoon 5-7 hours per week with 1-3 hours of round robin full-contact sparring. It was a real trial by fire place.

I think you are a liar. Why is that? Because people who have fought full contact competitive events cans speak to the specifics of what works and what does not work in both the ring and street environments. You will not find people who have competed successfully and used their stuff on the street who do not understand the relevance between the ring and the street.

Or maybe it's the fact that you are the one who is disgruntled because you could not make your stuff work in a competitive environment and then needed a way to rationalize the fact that it didn't work by using the tired old "str33t" rationalization.

Even under the relatively small assumption that you are not a liar and had competed successfully, that gives you no experience in competitive events that require standup grappling and/or groundfighting, so you would have no clue about this realm and how it applies to realistic fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Niehoff,
since you seem to suggest that everything that you do is equally effective in all situations, I have to question your training. You just haven't taken enough stuff to the lab.

[t_niehoff]

niehoff,
You are playing semantics and waffling, just to keep the argument going.

I'm not playing semantics -- I just have no idea what you mean by "arresting" someone's limbs. What? You won't define precisely what you mean and then claim I'm using semantics!

I don't even know why you bring it up. I certainly don't aim to "arrest" anyone's limbs. As I have said, for me WCK is about controlling the opponent while you strike them. This isn't unique to WCK. Controlling someone doesn't involve arresting limbs (they're limbs can be free or can involve the use of their limbs). It involves applying the use of superior leverage and momentum, and requires close contact (whether limb, body, head).

[t_niehoff]

Niehoff,
since you seem to suggest that everything that you do is equally effective in all situations, I have to question your training. You just haven't taken enough stuff to the lab.

You still don't get it. You're stuck in a street v. sport mentality, and that mentality comes from and is bolstered by poor training methods.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think you are a liar. Why is that? Because people who have fought full contact competitive events cans speak to the specifics of what works and what does not work in both the ring and street environments. You will not find people who have competed successfully and used their stuff on the street who do not understand the relevance between the ring and the street.

Or maybe it's the fact that you are the one who is disgruntled because you could not make your stuff work in a competitive environment and then needed a way to rationalize the fact that it didn't work by using the tired old "str33t" rationization.

Even under the relatively small assumption that you are not a liar and had competed successfully, that gives you no experience in competitive events that require stadnup grappling and/or groundfighting, so you would have no clue about this realm and how it applies to realistic fighting. Dude, I was doing Muay Thai style kicks and clinching back when people didn't even know what it was. That stuff translates great but we are talking about chin na.

The fact that you think that all things work equally well makes me question what you have really done. You just aren't very critical or have a low standard for effectiveness. If you practice Filipino martial arts and Wing Chun, you are practicing a lot of junk especially when you start practicing disarms and such.

[t_niehoff]

Dude, I was doing Muay Thai style kicks and clinching back when people didn't even know what it was. That stuff translates great but we are talking about chin na.

The fact that you think that all things work equally well makes me question what you have really done. You just aren't very critical or have a low standard for effectiveness. If you practice Filipino martial arts and Wing Chun, you are practicing a lot of junk especially when you start practicing disarms and such.

You do know that Dale is a full Dog Brother, right? I'm sure he knows much better than you what works in FMA and what doesn't work.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You still don't get it. You're stuck in a street v. sport mentality, and that mentality comes from and is bolstered by poor training methods.

I think that we settled on the real issue being whether or not to keep junk in the arsenal for certain street situations and rare sport opportunities, rather than being a street versus sport issue as practically all sport techniques have street application.

[Knifefighter]

Dude, I was doing Muay Thai style kicks and clinching back when people didn't even know what it was. That stuff translates great but we are talking about chin na.

The fact that you think that all things work equally well makes me question what you have really done. You just aren't very critical or have a low standard for effectiveness. If you practice Filipino martial arts and Wing Chun, you are practicing a lot of junk especially when you start practicing disarms and such.

I've been grappling for 30 years in pretty much any environment you can think of.

The fact is, you have never used chi na against skilled opponents. If you had, you would understand that there are certain standing grappling techniques that are effective in any environment. The reason you are teaching the chi na techs that won't work in the ring but will work against drunk, unskilled and/or much smaller opponents is because you don't know the effective techniques in the first place.

And you are right about both the FMA and WC because most people who are teaching and training both of those have never tested their techniques under pressure in a variety of situations.

BTW, there are many effective disarms, but they don't work the way most theoretical non-fighters teach them.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You do know that Dale is a full Dog Brother, right? I'm sure he knows much better than you what works in FMA and what doesn't work.

Why would I know anything about him? Seriously? Beyond that, I am pointing to specific FMA techniques that are common in a number of martial arts. Therefore, I feel confident of my own opinion concerning these matters. If I were discussing actual weapons use then I would defer.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I've been grappling for 30 years in pretty much any environment you can think of.

The fact is, you have never used chi na against skilled opponents. If you had, you would understand that there are certain standing grappling techniques that are effective in any environment. The reason you are teaching the chi na techs that won't work in the ring but will work against drunk, unskilled and/or much smaller opponents is because you don't know the effective techniques in the first place.

And you are right about both the FMA and WC because most people who are teaching and training both of those have never tested their techniques under pressure in a variety of situations.

BTW, there are many effective disarms, but they don't work the way most theoretical non-fighters teach them.

I would not say that I have never used Chin na against a skilled opponent, it is just that you have to let the locks come to you against a good fighter. Against a weak fighter I have found that I can impose my will and make it happen.

[Knifefighter]

I would not say that I have never used Chin na against a skilled opponent, it is just that you have to let the locks come to you against a good fighter. Against a weak fighter I have found that I can impose my will and make it happen.

The fact that you think locks are effective standup grappling pretty much proves that you haven't used it against halfway skilled opponents.

Standing locks almost never work.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The fact that you think locks are effective standup grappling pretty much proves that you haven't used it against halfway skilled opponents.

Standing locks almost never work.
Is that the best that you can come up with? Effective... never said that. Useful in the right situation... very. Kickboxing clinching is truly effective standing grappling, but I would rather not apply it unless I plan on doing some real damage.

[Knifefighter]

Is that the best that you can come up with?

LOL... when you've been grappling as long as I have, it's easy to spot the bullsh!tters. One easy give away is people who claim to be able to pull off standing joint locks.

[t_niehoff]

The fact that you think locks are effective standup grappling pretty much proves that you haven't used it against halfway skilled opponents.

Standing locks almost never work.

This is correct.

But -- the critical "but" -- what it takes to realize that (see it for themselves) is that a person needs to develop to a certain point in their grappling. When you spend some significant time grappling with good, skilled people, you'd learn WHY those things won't work-- you develop an understanding of grappling. Poor grapplers and nongrapplers don't have that understanding. When I hear people talking about standing locks and the like, which only shows a poor understanding of grappling, I know it's because they haven't done the training.

[Knifefighter]

Is that the best that you can come up with? Effective... never said that. Useful in the right situation... very. Kickboxing clinching is truly effective standing grappling, but I would rather not apply it unless I plan on doing some real damage.

Which again shows your probable lack of kickboxing/MT/street experience. The clinch control techniques can easily be used for "real" control techniques and are much more effective than attempting to apply standing joint locks on a moving, resisting opponent.

[goju]

The fact that you think locks are effective standup grappling pretty much proves that you haven't used it against halfway skilled opponents.

Standing locks almost never work.

just because you and the people you know arent talented enough to accomplish certain moves doesnt automatically mean a technique doesnt work

thats a rather foolish assumption:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... when you've been grappling as long as I have, it's easy to spot the bullsh!tters. One easy give away is people who claim to be able to pull off standing joint locks.
So you mean to tell me that against a street chump that you can't pull off a standing joint lock or joint lock throw? Do you mean to tell me that against a skilled opponent, that you don't get one off once in a blue moon?

[Knifefighter]

just because you and the people you know arent talented enough to accomplish certain moves doesnt automatically mean a technique doesnt work

thats a rather foolish assumption:D

Maybe there is someone, somewhere in the world who can consistently pull off standing joint locks. So far, however, he hasn't surfaced. If he ever does, he will have hordes of submission grapplers, SAMBO competitors, judo players and MMA fighters beating a path to his door to become students of his.

[t_niehoff]

just because you and the people you know arent talented enough to accomplish certain moves doesnt automatically mean a technique doesnt work

thats a rather foolish assumption:D

Two things --

First of all, the understanding that standing joint locks don't work doesn't depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people. In other words, I base my views on evidence not just my personal abilities. The evidence in this instance is that we never see standing joint locks working against anyone but unskilled scrubs or drunks. We also hear from the world's best proven grapplers that those things aren't viable. So where is the evidence of it working?

Second, when you spend significant amounts of time grappling with good people, you develop an understanding of grappling, what things work, what doesn't, why that is the case, and so forth. If you don't have this experience, you don't know or have an understanding for grappling - regardless of how many books or videos you've watched.

[goju]

Maybe there is someone, somewhere in the world who can consistently pull off standing joint locks. So far, however, he hasn't surfaced. If he ever does, he will have hordes of submission grapplers, SAMBO competitors, judo players and MMA fighters beating a path to his door to become students of his.

no actually ive seen him:D

back when i was very young i witnessed a knife disarm demo by a visiting tkd master form korea who everyone called mr.park

it was completely unrehearsed and the attacker could useany angle he wished to attack him and he was locked and slammed all over the room and it was quite amazing

actually no i highly doubt it thats like saying all these strikers are beating down cung le's door to learn how to kick like him since hes proven how effective unorthodox kicking techniques can be:D

[t_niehoff]

So you mean to tell me that against a street chump that you can't pull off a standing joint lock or joint lock throw? Do you mean to tell me that against a skilled opponent, that you don't get one off once in a blue moon?

What you don't grasp is that a good grappler won't try to get one -- he has learned better things. Why do something stupid when something sound will achieve what you want? I may be able to pull off a karate reverse punch against a drunk. So what? Why will I change my punching for the drunk? If I want to control a drunk, why use a standing jointlock? Why not just use standard, solid clinch controls?

[goju]

Two things --

First of all, the understanding that standing joint locks don't work doesn't depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people. In other words, I base my views on evidence not just my personal abilities. The evidence in this instance is that we never see standing joint locks working against anyone but unskilled scrubs or drunks. We also hear from the world's best proven grapplers that those things aren't viable. So where is the evidence of it working?

Second, when you spend significant amounts of time grappling with good people, you develop an understanding of grappling, what things work, what doesn't, why that is the case, and so forth. If you don't have this experience, you don't know or have an understanding for grappling - regardless of how many books or videos you've watched.

wow who knew igor would come shuffling along with his master to this thread

first of all youer a blatant nut rider who attaches himself to dale so you think it will give your opinion more worth

second you have admitted yourself that youre not any good at all

therefore why do you bother?youre not good because you havent trained with anyone good so obviously how can you see anything work when there is nothing to see? LOL thats a big duh terrence

[Knifefighter]

So you mean to tell me that against a street chump that you can't pull off a standing joint lock or joint lock throw? Do you mean to tell me that against a skilled opponent, that you don't get one off once in a blue moon?
What is a street chump? Is it a BJJ blackbelt who is ****ed off because he got screwed by the referee in his championship match that morning? Is it a 275 lb collegiate lineman who is on cycle and having a bit of roid rage? It it the guy recently out of prison carrying a blade who has just done a few hits of PCP. Assuming someone on the street is an easy mark shows your lack of street experience.

I've been doing submission grappling BJJ tourneys for years now, as well as following many of the tourneys that I haven't competed in. I can count on one hand the number of standing locks I've seen in thousands of matches over the years.

As far as using a joint manipulation, such as a kimura, to effect a throw, those work fine, but we are talking about standing control, not takedowns.

Training standing locks is generally a huge waste of time, right along there with those FMA disarms you were talking about.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What you don't grasp is that a good grappler won't try to get one -- he has learned better things. Why do something stupid when something sound will achieve what you want? I may be able to pull off a karate reverse punch against a drunk. So what? Why will I change my punching for the drunk? If I want to control a drunk, why use a standing jointlock? Why not just use standard, solid clinch controls?

If you have some better things than point me to the youtube video. I will concede defeat if you can show me a series of standing techniques that will accomplish the goals of remaining standing, legal, compassionate, and both highly ring and street effective which are needed for police work, security/bouncing, social work, and the like.

[t_niehoff]

wow who knew igor would come shuffling along with his master to this thread


I am beginning to think you aren't very bright. I didn't come "shuffling along to this thread", I started the thread. And I've been involved in the conversation the whole way.



one thing your a blatant nut rider who attaches himself to dale so you think it will give your opinion more worth


And all you can do is personally attack people -- with rather stupid remarks.

What I pay attention to is good, solid experience and to people with that sort of experience.



second you have admitted yourself youre not any good at all


I'm not that good compared to the people who are really good -- and anyone who trains with really good people will understand what I mean (and I don't expect you to). As I wrote above, and which you apparently didn't read, "the understanding that standing joint locks don't work doesn't depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people."



therefore why do you bother?youre not good because you havent trained with anyone good so obviously how can you see anything work when there is nothing to see? LOL thats a big duh terrence

You don't know anything about me or my training.

Your involvement in this thread is apparently limited to offering nothing of substance and only personally attacking people you don't like (because they are critical of your fantasy fighting notions).

[HumbleWCGuy]

You stared the thread niehoff but you have turned into the igor.

[Knifefighter]

If you have some better things than point me to the youtube video. I will concede defeat if you can show me a series of standing techniques that will accomplish the goals of remaining standing, legal, compassionate, and both highly ring and street effective which are needed for police work, security/bouncing, social work, and the like.

Over/underhooks and 2 on 1's. Mastery of these works for everything from controlling a bigger opponent, keeping your opponent from striking you or taking you down, to controlling a weapon.

[t_niehoff]

If you have some better things than point me to the youtube video. I will concede defeat if you can show me a series of standing techniques that will accomplish the goals of remaining standing, legal, compassionate, and both highly ring and street effective which are needed for police work, security/bouncing, social work, and the like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiJuVficXg

There are others. Perhaps you if actually went and trained with some good grapplers . . .

[goju]

I am beginning to think you aren't very bright. I didn't come "shuffling along to this thread", I started the thread. And I've been involved in the conversation the whole way.



And all you can do is personally attack people -- with rather stupid remarks.

What I pay attention to is good, solid experience and to people with that sort of experience.



I'm not that good compared to the people who are really good -- and anyone who trains with really good people will understand what I mean (and I don't expect you to). As I wrote above, and which you apparently didn't read, "the understanding that standing joint locks don't work doesn't depend on whether or not you personally can do it. There are lots of things I cannot personally do, but I can see others make work consistently in sparring with quality people."



You don't know anything about me or my training.

Your involvement in this thread is apparently limited to offering nothing of substance and only personally attacking people you don't like (because they are critical of your fantasy fighting notions).

you are good when you train with good people

unless you have just started martial arts a month ago there is no reason why youre not good other than the fact you are not training hard or youre not learning from a skilled coach or possiblya mixture of both:D

[Knifefighter]

You stared the thread niehoff but you have turned into the igor.

No, he makes excellent points. You just don't have the knowledge and experience to understand what he is saying.

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiJuVficXg

There are others. Perhaps you if actually went and trained with some good grapplers . . .
Let's go more than one deep?

[goju]

No, he makes excellent points. You just don't have the knowledge and experience to understand what he is saying.

yes because saying completely obvious things like train hard and realistically is such a brillaint concept no one has ever heard of!


I NOW SEE THE LIGHT THANKS TO TERRENCE!!!!

TRAIN HARD AND SPAR REALISTICALLY YOU SAY?

MY GOD HE HAS REINVENTED THE WHEEL!!!

NO ONE HAS EVER THOUGHT OF THIS IN ALL OF MANKINDS EXISTENCE!!!!!!

TERRENCE IS TRULY A PROPHET!!!!


COME LETS ADORE HIIIIIIIIIIIIIM'
COME LETS ADORE HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIM
COME LETS ADORE HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIM

[t_niehoff]

You stared the thread niehoff but you have turned into the igor.

Dale's views coincide with mine (in some things) but we have formed them independently. And our views are not anything extraordinary, and you'd hear the same things from anyone who has spent some significant time training with good mma, mt, wrestlers, jits people, etc.

What I acknowledge is Dale's accomplishments -- and if you haven't rolled with a BJJ BB, you simply don't know how awesome of a grappler you need to be to earn one. He's also fought mma and bareknuckle. And has trained WCK. So what? Well, I think that means his views are worthy of consideration. When I talk about going and training with good, proven fighters, he is the sort of person I'm talking about. That doesn't make me "igor",it just means I listen to people worth listening to.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiJuVficXg

There are others. Perhaps you if actually went and trained with some good grapplers . . .

Standing chokes are much higher percentage than standing joint locks. Even then, these are still relatively low percentage moves... not to mention the fact that as soon as you apply a choke, you are looking at the legal consequences of deadly force.

Much better to learn the arm-control intricacies... which you have to learn first to get that choke anyways.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Standing chokes are much higher percentage than standing joint locks. Even then, these are still relatively low percentage moves... not to mention the fact that as soon as you apply a choke, you are looking at the legal consequences of deadly force.

Much better to learn the arm-control intricacies... which you have to learn first to get that choke anyways.

You'll get no arguments from me but I am not sure that these are out of the realm of chin na. I have long taught an arm drag into a rear naked choke. The side choke is one of the techniques that we using in plumbing, we drill escapes from it.

[t_niehoff]

you are good when you train with good people

unless you have just started martial arts a month ago there is no reason why youre not good other than the fact you are not training hard or youre not learning from a skilled coach or possiblya mixture of both:D

When Saulo came here (we were all training under by a 4th degree BB under Rickson) and rolled with everyone, one of the brown belts -- now a black belt -- who has won BJJ comps and fought pro MMA, said after rolling with Saulo that he felt like he had been schooled like a white belt. He would tell you, even to this day, that he was not "that good". That's the attitude that comes from training with good people.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Also, arm bars come up in the plum quite regularly. All one need do is look at Muay thai/ Asian-style kickboxing fights. It's a different shell than chin na, but it is far from impossible to secure standing arm bars.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Over/underhooks and 2 on 1's. Mastery of these works for everything from controlling a bigger opponent, keeping your opponent from striking you or taking you down, to controlling a weapon.

And you can't manage an arm-lock out of these... ever? Intersting... Over under produces arm locks pretty effectively from the plumb? I have a few two on one techniques that I use.

[HumbleWCGuy]

This is classic disgruntled... overstating ones case. One pretty good wrestling technique is hardly grounds for dismissing the whole of chin na especially because as you go further, you will end up showing grappling that is also chin na.

[goju]

exactly^ china na has take downs and throws as well as strikes added into it to round it out:D

[t_niehoff]

Here is your reasoning -- I have been able to use standing locks - chin na - against scrubs (who probably aren't really fighting back) so they must be good. That's it. That's all you have.

You ignore the facts that we never see a documented case of anyone able to pull one off in fighting against anyone with decent attributes or decent skills, that all the best, proven grapplers all agree that standing joint locks are a really poor idea (low percentage, high risk), and that we can easily see what sorts of controls do work by looking at high level grapplers in action. You yourself haven't even put in significant time learning to grapple with proven, really good wrestlers or BJJ people.

Yes, all the proven, good, even world-class, grapplers are wrong, and you are right-- you know this from your work with scrubs. And anyone who says differently, even BJJ BBs with 30 years of grappling experience with some of the best grapplers around, are just "disgruntled" because -- and this I'm still trying to figure out -- "disgruntled" why?

[Knifefighter]

Also, arm bars come up in the plum quite regularly. All one need do is look at Muay thai/ Asian-style kickboxing fights. It's a different shell than chin na, but it is far from impossible to secure standing arm bars.

LOL... if that was the case, you would see them all the time in MMA fights. The fact is, they don't work, which you would know if you'd ever actually tried to use them against halfway skilled opponents

Of course you can easily disprove me. Just enter yourself or your students into some MMA or submission grappling tourneys and show the clips of the standing arm bars you are able to pull of against the opponents.

[Knifefighter]

And you can't manage an arm-lock out of these... ever? Intersting... Over under produces arm locks pretty effectively from the plumb? I have a few two on one techniques that I use.

Over/unders from the plumb? Huh? What are you talking about? What do you mean over/under from the plumb? Please explain the specific positioning you are talking about.

[goju]

LOL... if that was the case, you would see them all the time in MMA fights. The fact is, they don't work, which you would know if you'd ever actually tried to use them against halfway skilled opponents

Of course you can easily disprove me. Just enter yourself or your students into some MMA or submission grappling tourneys and show the clips of the standing arm bars you are able to pull of against the opponents.

it already has some bjj blackbelt submitted soemone with that crappy standing arm lock they teach in bjj i believe he completely destroyed his arm as well with it

of course im sure it was an exception though right?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Over/unders from the plumb? Huh? What are you talking about? What do you mean over/under from the plumb? Please explain the specific positioning you are talking about.
I mean just your standard overhook/underhook position in wrestling used as part of the kickboxing clinch material.

[HumbleWCGuy]

exactly^ china na has take downs and throws as well as strikes added into it to round it out:D

The other thing about chin na is that it alleviates a lot of the tussling that has to be done if you are using wrestling, Bjj, or Judo. When someone practices a grappling art they can become desensitized to tussling a bit as I think strikers can be with punches (I throw for a while: you throw for a while mind set).


The one thing that I want to say about chin na as it was taught to me would resemble Aikido but it is not Aikido. If I demonstrated techniques in this manner to my instructor, he would go of like an atomic bomb. For some reason, Aikido, in general, has lost some of the subtleties that make it work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppy94MJGDgM&feature=related

[HumbleWCGuy]

It has been suggested to me by a BJJ competitor, that effectiveness of wrist locks has led to their ban from BJJ competition. The movement is so subtle and effective that people cant tap quickly enough.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Here is your reasoning -- I have been able to use standing locks - chin na - against scrubs (who probably aren't really fighting back) so they must be good. That's it. That's all you have.

You ignore the facts that we never see a documented case of anyone able to pull one off in fighting against anyone with decent attributes or decent skills, that all the best, proven grapplers all agree that standing joint locks are a really poor idea (low percentage, high risk), and that we can easily see what sorts of controls do work by looking at high level grapplers in action. You yourself haven't even put in significant time learning to grapple with proven, really good wrestlers or BJJ people.

Yes, all the proven, good, even world-class, grapplers are wrong, and you are right-- you know this from your work with scrubs. And anyone who says differently, even BJJ BBs with 30 years of grappling experience with some of the best grapplers around, are just "disgruntled" because -- and this I'm still trying to figure out -- "disgruntled" why?
If you leave the basic self-defense arena. Standing arm locks come up in full rules Muay Thai quite a bit. So from that perspective, it would be full-rules Muay Thai fighters telling world class grapplers they are wrong as they are world class in their own right.

[Knifefighter]

If you leave the basic self-defense arena. Standing arm locks come up in full rules Muay Thai quite a bit. So from that perspective, it would be full-rules Muay Thai fighters telling world class grapplers they are wrong as they are world class in their own right.

Arm locks are not allowed in MT.

[Knifefighter]

It has been suggested to me by a BJJ competitor, that effectiveness of wrist locks has led to their ban from BJJ competition. The movement is so subtle and effective that people cant tap quickly enough.

LOL @ standing wrist locks being effective. In the history of BJJ comps there have only been a few of them.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Arm locks are not allowed in MT.

Not as a submission technique, but the arm gets hooked in that position and people are forced in to knees or held in place. You can't hyper extend. You are going out of your element here.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL @ standing wrist locks being effective. In the history of BJJ comps there have only been a few of them.

It would only stand to reason that a banned technique would not have an extensive track record.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Some Duke Roufus guy agrees with me about the Muay Thai Arm bar. He tells a story about that type of arm bar as well. His trainer in Thai Land used that to great effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYI8-CYkum4&feature=related


Malipet does as well, but I can't produce the video at the moment.

[Knifefighter]

Some Duke Roufus guy agrees with me about the Muay Thai Arm bar. He tells a story about that type of arm bar as well. His trainer in Thai Land used that to great effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYI8-CYkum4&feature=related


Malipet does as well, but I can't produce the video at the moment.

LOL... I've been using that for years. It's no arm bar. You really are clueless.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... I've been using that for years. It's no arm bar. You really are clueless.

You are a complete and utter fool and an embarrassment. You are ignorant of CMA and kickboxing so just stop.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Arm lock /Arm bar/ whatever ROFLMAO What'
s your address, I will send you some Kleenex.

[goju]

LOL... I've been using that for years. It's no arm bar. You really are clueless.

thats a common chin na lock ive seen in numerous time in different arts dale the only one who seems to be clueless is you:D

but i dont youre getting up there in age and dusty so ill forgive you

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... when you've been grappling as long as I have, it's easy to spot the bullsh!tters. One easy give away is people who claim to be able to pull off standing joint locks.
Don't tell Duke.

[goju]

thats a common chin na lock ive seen in numerous time in different arts dale the only one who seems to be clueless is you:D

but i know youre getting up there in age and dusty so ill forgive you


also as well i might ask what is your experience studying chin na dale and who did you study with?

[Frost]

also as well i might ask what is your experience studying chin na dale and who did you study with?

Oh snap who did you study with please tell, you seem to know a lot about chin na for someone who lives in the back of beyond with no school to train at

[Frost]

It would only stand to reason that a banned technique would not have an extensive track record.

Wrist locks are not banned in all comps. A black belt got his wrist broke from a wrist lock in the guard a while back and is on you tube I believe, wrist locks on the ground where you have control of the body are still so low percentage that most people only play around with them for fun, from standing they are next to worthless, that’s why you don’t see them in MMA or sub grappling

[Frost]

Over/underhooks and 2 on 1's. Mastery of these works for everything from controlling a bigger opponent, keeping your opponent from striking you or taking you down, to controlling a weapon.

Quoted for truth this here is what you want to work on for standing grappling, it works against unarmed and armed opponents and against skilled and non skilled fighters. (when i was introduced to standing wrestling control positions i asked myself why i had wasted so much time learning chin na, it is so much more efficent and effective to use under and over hooks, and 2on1's)

[goju]

Oh snap who did you study with please tell, you seem to know a lot about chin na for someone who lives in the back of beyond with no school to train at

ive studied goju ryu and tkd from my uncle who learned it from a korean master named sung cho:D
and ive also sparred with one gentleman who posts on this forum who attested to my skill level :)

goju ryu has a wealth of chin na locks in it therefore i am familar with it and i find it odd how someone an discredit it when they havent trained or practiced the artform dont you?

:D

[Frost]

ive studied goju ryu and tkd from my uncle who learned it from a korean master named sung cho:D
and ive also sparred with one gentleman who posts on this forum who attested to my skill level :)

goju ryu has a wealth of chin na locks in it therefore i am familar with it and i find it odd how someone an discredit it when they havent trained or practiced the artform dont you?

:D

I find it odd that someone would talk about the effectivness chinese locking methods when all they have studied is korean and japanese arts and have never atually competed in grappling or MMA

I have studied chinese locking systems under a few different teachers and also competed in grappling....my expereince is the same as dales, under stressful conditions they do not work, now perhaps when you either study a chinese system and then go onto fight in the cage/ring or do a graapling comp and pull off these techniques then perhaps you too can talk about their effectiveness?

[t_niehoff]

If you leave the basic self-defense arena. Standing arm locks come up in full rules Muay Thai quite a bit. So from that perspective, it would be full-rules Muay Thai fighters telling world class grapplers they are wrong as they are world class in their own right.

There aren't "different" arenas -- there is what works, consistently (higfh percentage) and against people with good attributes and skills, and stuff that doesn't.

MT doesn't allow (or teach/practice) arm locks or any joint locks for that matter.

[t_niehoff]

Some Duke Roufus guy agrees with me about the Muay Thai Arm bar. He tells a story about that type of arm bar as well. His trainer in Thai Land used that to great effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYI8-CYkum4&feature=related


Malipet does as well, but I can't produce the video at the moment.

Have you even trained MT? Other than via video (from your massive tape library)?

That's not an arm lock or arm bar -- and it's even taught as a way to break out of a hold. It is just using leverage to break your opponent's grip and he's not going to do what the guy in the video is doing, leaving his arm draped around your neck -- he's going to be moving, trying to immediately readjust, etc. You need to stop watching videos and go train with some good people.

Of course, now you'll say that I'm playing at semantics!

[t_niehoff]

also as well i might ask what is your experience studying chin na dale and who did you study with?

Chin na is grappling. What works or doesn't work in grappling doesn't depend on what style you've studied. You don't need to study karate to recognize that the reverse punch isn't all that. ;)

What is simply f##cking amazing to me is that I keep telling you and others that what you need to do -- before you reach your conclusions -- is to go train with some very good people, like some good MMA people or BJJ people and to see for yourself. Just because something has been taught a long time or is tradtitional or comes from China or whatever doesn't make it good. What makes it good is that it works consistently and against good people.

BTW, if you set aside your dislike for Dale and asked yourself, if you were going to to train at a good MMA/BJJ school -- I know you never will, but consider this hypothetically -- what is it you'd look for? Perhaps a BJJ BB with extensive competition experience? Someone who has also well-trained in stand-up? Someone who has fought both MMA and bareknuckle? Maybe even someone with a great deal of full-contact stickfighting? And what if this guy also knew WCK? What else could you ask for?

[Dragonzbane76]

Some Duke Roufus guy agrees with me about the Muay Thai Arm bar.
considering I've never heard of an arm bar in muay thai???

[Dragonzbane76]

Originally Posted by Knifefighter
Over/underhooks and 2 on 1's. Mastery of these works for everything from controlling a bigger opponent, keeping your opponent from striking you or taking you down, to controlling a weapon.

words of wisdom here. Nothing works better in the clinch than controll of the others person with over and underhooks. if you can master this than you have a firm grasp of controlling the take down.



Wrist locks are not banned in all comps.

yes i've seen these tried in MMA and grappling but they never really work. I think it's because the leverage isn't there in most cases and that anyone with a half-way decent ground game can counter these with ease. Just as the TCMA tooting their horn that biting and head-butting/groin kicks would work against a grappler is funny. I think these would pi$$ me off more than anything else if someone did them to me and i would make sure to hurt that person with extreme pleasure.
but if you've done grappling then you know the body positioning and allowances you need to maintain. I worked in corrections for some time and always had to employ the need for grappling against people who spit/pi$$ed/ bite/ headbutted/etc. you just learn from grappling the positions you need for someone who will do this.

[Knifefighter]

thats a common chin na lock ive seen in numerous time in different arts dale the only one who seems to be clueless is you:D

but i dont youre getting up there in age and dusty so ill forgive you

The fact that you think that tech is effective as a lock pretty much cements your level of cluelessness.

[Frost]

Chin na is grappling. What works or doesn't work in grappling doesn't depend on what style you've studied. You don't need to study karate to recognize that the reverse punch isn't all that. ;)

What is simply f##cking amazing to me is that I keep telling you and others that what you need to do -- before you reach your conclusions -- is to go train with some very good people, like some good MMA people or BJJ people and to see for yourself. Just because something has been taught a long time or is tradtitional or comes from China or whatever doesn't make it good. What makes it good is that it works consistently and against good people.

BTW, if you set aside your dislike for Dale and asked yourself, if you were going to to train at a good MMA/BJJ school -- I know you never will, but consider this hypothetically -- what is it you'd look for? Perhaps a BJJ BB with extensive competition experience? Someone who has also well-trained in stand-up? Someone who has fought both MMA and bareknuckle? Maybe even someone with a great deal of full-contact stickfighting? And what if this guy also knew WCK? What else could you ask for?

Come on don’t pick on the lad it’s not his fault he can’t find a gym to train in…. it’s not like he uses it as an excuse not to train or compete…..

And we all know Dale has only had a few fights in MMA/bare-knuckle fighting and only faught in America and Japan in kick boxing… this is nothing special and does not give him the right to talk about sports fighting and what does or does not work in a fight….. Neither does being a dog brother or a 2nd degree BJJ black belt gives him the right to talk about grappling or weapons fighting…. why should we listen to someone with full contact experience with both weapons and empty hand who is also an advanced grappler.... its madness i tell you:eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

What is simply f##cking amazing to me is that I keep telling you and others that what you need to do -- before you reach your conclusions -- is to go train with some very good people, like some good MMA people or BJJ people and to see for yourself. Just because something has been taught a long time or is tradtitional or comes from China or whatever doesn't make it good. What makes it good is that it works consistently and against good people.

trial and error imo. I've always been of the conclusion that you are as good as the people you train with. If you train with half a$$ forms wielding, garage fighters than that is what you will be and the lvl you will function at. Why? because you have never been pushed to do anything beyond that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Come on don’t pick on the lad it’s not his fault he can’t find a gym to train in…. it’s not like he uses it as an excuse not to train or compete…..

And we all know Dale has only had a few fights in MMA/bare-knuckle fighting and only faught in America and Japan in kick boxing… this is nothing special and does not give him the right to talk about sports fighting and what does or does not work in a fight….. Neither does being a dog brother or a 2nd degree BJJ black belt gives him the right to talk about grappling or weapons fighting…. why should we listen to someone with full contact experience with both weapons and empty hand who is also an advanced grappler.... its madness i tell you:eek:

I would question the kickboxing. It was probably P.K.A. style from the way he talks. Some guys had some talent for sure, but that style of kickboxing was fundamentally flawed.

[HumbleWCGuy]

considering I've never heard of an arm bar in muay thai???

That was sarcasm. Duke Roufus is easily the greatest heavyweight kickboxer of tall time. There are plenty of other great champions but Duke stands alone in my mind.

[Dragonzbane76]

Duke Roufus is easily the greatest heavyweight kickboxer of tall time. There are plenty of other great champions but Duke stands alone in my mind.
I know who he is.


That was sarcasm
internet=lack for tone of voice. probably should be more specific.

[Frost]

I would question the kickboxing. It was probably P.K.A. style from the way he talks. Some guys had some talent for sure, but that style of kickboxing was fundamentally flawed.

Umm he faught Thai in Japan... where did you fight it?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I know who he is.


internet=lack for tone of voice. probably should be more specific.

True... true....

So do you reject the notion of arm locks in Muay Thai? Their are a few standing arm bar/arm lock positions that come up pretty regularly in full rules MT.

[Frost]

That was sarcasm. Duke Roufus is easily the greatest heavyweight kickboxer of tall time. There are plenty of other great champions but Duke stands alone in my mind.

I'd go with ernesto Hoost :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

Umm he faught Thai in Japan... where did you fight it?
Who is telling you that there are no arm locks in Muay thai? That's all you need to know. I fought in the U.S., but I did not train in American Kicboxing.

[t_niehoff]

True... true....

So do you reject the notion of arm locks in Muay Thai? Their are a few standing arm bar/arm lock positions that come up pretty regularly in full rules MT.

Actually, the rules of MT don't permit joint locks. What you are seeing is not an arm lock or arm bar.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Actually, the rules of MT don't permit joint locks. What you are seeing is not an arm lock or arm bar.

I love how the rules of a sport component of an art dictate to you what it is. They happen, but they are used to control rather than tap. Listen to Duke's story. Do you want to call him a liar?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'd go with ernesto Hoost :)

Duke has a few fights on youtube. He is completely devistating. If you haven't taken the time to look, check it out, and get back with me. :) I like Duke becasue he has great hands and footwork and his kicks are insane. H breaks legs.

[t_niehoff]

I love how the rules of a sport component of an art dictate to you what it is. They happen, but they are used to control rather than tap. Listen to Duke's story. Do you want to call him a liar?

The "rules" define muay thai.

http://www.muaythai-fighting.com/muay-thai-rules.html#Muay-Thai-Rules-18

Muay thai doesn't ahve arm bars since they are illegal.

[Knifefighter]

Who is telling you that there are no arm locks in Muay thai? That's all you need to know. I fought in the U.S., but I did not train in American Kicboxing.

There are thousands of clips of Muay Thai fights. Please point us to even one of those clips where a fight was finished with a standing arm bar.

Just one. Out of thousands.... just one.

The fact that you think there are arm bars in MT pretty much proves the point that, not only are you clueless about standing grappling clinch work, you are also clueless about Muay Thai.

You are a perfect example of a pretend, theoretical non-fighter who bases his conclusions on theories rather than demonstrable facts.

[Knifefighter]

I love how the rules of a sport component of an art dictate to you what it is. They happen, but they are used to control rather than tap. Listen to Duke's story. Do you want to call him a liar?

BTW, if you had actually ever used the technique he is showing against someone who is halfway athletic with a bit of MT plum control skill, you would know that in the majority of cases you don't end up with the arm extended like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some Duke Roufus guy agrees with me about the Muay Thai Arm bar. He tells a story about that type of arm bar as well. His trainer in Thai Land used that to great effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYI8-CYkum4&feature=related


Malipet does as well, but I can't produce the video at the moment.

The leverage is one the shoulder, not the elbow, its not an Arm bar .

[Frost]

Duke has a few fights on youtube. He is completely devistating. If you haven't taken the time to look, check it out, and get back with me. :) I like Duke becasue he has great hands and footwork and his kicks are insane. H breaks legs.

And Hoost doesn't have great hands and legs, doesn't Ko guys with ease, and isn't devistating... didn't win K1 god knows how many times fighting the best in the world?

Duke was good but he is not anywhere close to Hoost sorry

[Knifefighter]

Duke has a few fights on youtube. He is completely devistating. If you haven't taken the time to look, check it out, and get back with me. :) I like Duke becasue he has great hands and footwork and his kicks are insane. H breaks legs.

Nobody is disputing his skill as a fighter. What we are explaining to you is the fact that the technique he is showing is not a finishing move. It is designed to take away the opponent's ability to control you from the plumb. The fact that you don't see this points to the probability that you have not actually competed in this environment.

Notice how Rufus never says there is a finishing arm bar there. Like most theoretical non-fighters, you are "extrapolating" based on what you think could happen, rather than basing your conclusions on what actually does happen.

[Frost]

Nobody is disputing his skill as a fighter. What we are explaining to you is the fact that the technique he is showing is not a finishing move. It is designed to take away the opponent's ability to control you from the plumb. The fact that you don't see this points to the probability that you have not actually competed in this environment.

i can't comment on the clip because i can't view it at work, however i have never seen an arm lock/bar in thai boxing, i have seen breaks from the clinch using leverage but that is entirly different and not a static move but one done in motion designed to break a grip/control position and allow you to regrip or escape

[Dragonzbane76]

True... true....

So do you reject the notion of arm locks in Muay Thai? Their are a few standing arm bar/arm lock positions that come up pretty regularly in full rules MT.

I've never ever seen an arm bar in a Muay thai fight. I'm pretty sure the rules state there is no joint locks in the fights.

As for there not being in the entirity of the muay thai spectrum I would be willing to state that yes there probably is some sort of locks in the earlier 8 limb animal oriented style.

But as for the muay thai we see in thailand I've never seen any or in any other portion of the sport (dutch/international rule sets).

[goju]

I find it odd that someone would talk about the effectivness chinese locking methods when all they have studied is korean and japanese arts and have never atually competed in grappling or MMA

I have studied chinese locking systems under a few different teachers and also competed in grappling....my expereince is the same as dales, under stressful conditions they do not work, now perhaps when you either study a chinese system and then go onto fight in the cage/ring or do a graapling comp and pull off these techniques then perhaps you too can talk about their effectiveness?

wow i find it odd thats someone who claims to have studied tradtional martial arts isnt intelligent enough to realize chinese locking methods spread to the koreans and okinawans ( i know okinawan goju not japanese goju btw)

perhaps you dotn realize that white crane(wich has its own huge catalog of locks) along with five ancestor fist influcned goju?

or you dotn realize theres okinawan wrestling in it as well


well good for you thats YOUR exeperince how do you explain the duke roufus vid where a fight was won with a chin na lock in place?

as ive said ive seen that lock before

ive learned it myself in goju and ive seen it in ther arts such as in yang jwing mings whiite crane system:D

[goju]

Nobody is disputing his skill as a fighter. What we are explaining to you is the fact that the technique he is showing is not a finishing move. It is designed to take away the opponent's ability to control you from the plumb. The fact that you don't see this points to the probability that you have not actually competed in this environment.

Notice how Rufus never says there is a finishing arm bar there. Like most theoretical non-fighters, you are "extrapolating" based on what you think could happen, rather than basing your conclusions on what actually does happen.

not all chin na has to be used as finish move the loch can be used to set up a strike

[goju]

The fact that you think that tech is effective as a lock pretty much cements your level of cluelessness.

does the term broken record mean anything to you?:D

[goju]

Chin na is grappling. What works or doesn't work in grappling doesn't depend on what style you've studied. You don't need to study karate to recognize that the reverse punch isn't all that. ;)

What is simply f##cking amazing to me is that I keep telling you and others that what you need to do -- before you reach your conclusions -- is to go train with some very good people, like some good MMA people or BJJ people and to see for yourself. Just because something has been taught a long time or is tradtitional or comes from China or whatever doesn't make it good. What makes it good is that it works consistently and against good people.

BTW, if you set aside your dislike for Dale and asked yourself, if you were going to to train at a good MMA/BJJ school -- I know you never will, but consider this hypothetically -- what is it you'd look for? Perhaps a BJJ BB with extensive competition experience? Someone who has also well-trained in stand-up? Someone who has fought both MMA and bareknuckle? Maybe even someone with a great deal of full-contact stickfighting? And what if this guy also knew WCK? What else could you ask for?


actually this just proves what a goof ball you are:D and now with your reverse punch comment you have shown youre clueless about krate as well

how many other styles do you plan to show youre ignorance of? lol lets make a list

yes you need to study an art before you talk about arguing agianst this is just plain dumb

if a person who has no clue about stand up grappling and has knowledge of the ground soley then their opinion on stand up is pointless and vice versa:D

and this is the most important thing no one here is ASKING you or dale for your so called advice :D

i really dont want advice from some guy who admits he isnt that good and some delusional anti tma old man who think hesbig sh!t because hes had a few fights along time ago


i know this may be hard for you to understand but im kooky that way

i dont dislike anyone here i actually find people like you and dale amusing


all i want is a gym with good hard training i really dont care about anything else but that

by the way since youre talking about good hard trianing what was the name of these team of guys you claim to work with? ive asked you how many times about them and asked you if any of them were in colorado at all and thus far you keep avoiding answering my question

[m1k3]

if a person who has no clue about stand up grappling and has knowledge of the ground soley then their opinion on stand up is pointless and vice versa:D



This comment speaks tons about your grappling experience. BJJ is not limited to ground grappling and has a strong standing grappling component that comes from Judo and wrestling. If you want to finish someone on the ground you'd better have a way to get them there. :D

Just remember, stupidity is a condition, ignorance is a choice.

[goju]

This comment speaks tons about your grappling experience. BJJ is not limited to ground grappling and has a strong standing grappling component that comes from Judo and wrestling. If you want to finish someone on the ground you'd better have a way to get them there. :D

Just remember, stupidity is a condition, ignorance is a choice.
funny because there was a article in this magazine entitled bjj vs shai jiao i believe and the instructor who teaches bjj and chinese wrestling inchina noted bjjs weakness was its stand up and he was taught directly under one of gracies:D

but what does he know right:D

[m1k3]

It depends on where your learning your BJJ I guess. While we spent a lot more time on ground work we do train single and double leg takedowns, clinch fighting, pummeling and even some basic judo throws. A couple of the students were college level wrestlers and there was a bunch of people with high school wrestling experience (including myself).

I guess thats the difference between experience and reading what someone else says. I won't comment on GOJU because I don't know anything about it. Maybe you should apply the same logic to BJJ? :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

actually this just proves what a goof ball you are:D and now with your reverse punch comment you have shown youre clueless about krate as well


The point is there is much in TMA just has been proved to be ineffective.



yes you need to study an art before you talk about arguing agianst this is just plain dumb


We can know many things from evidence of results or from just having a good grasp on the subject matter (like grappling).



if a person who has no clue about stand up grappling and has knowledge of the ground soley then their opinion on stand up is pointless and vice versa:D


Again, you make assumptions -- I've trained with good wrestlers (both greco and free style) as well as good BJJ people. And your point is entirely mistaken as others have pointed out.



and this is the most important thing no one here is ASKING you or dale for your so called advice :D


This is an open forum.



i really dont want advice from some guy who admits he isnt that good and some delusional anti tma old man who think hesbig sh!t because hes had a few fights along time ago


That's fine, no one can make you see sense. But I don't write to persuade you -- I think you're lost. I write to show others that you are lost. :)



i dont dislike anyone here i actually find people like you and dale amusing


Yeah, sure.



all i want is a gym with good hard training i really dont care about anything else but that


No, you don't.



since youre talking about good hard trianing what was the name of these team of guys you claim to work with? ive asked you how many times about them and asked you if any of them were in colorado at all and thus far you keep avoiding answering my question

The WCK guys I train with are here in St. Louis. Robert's met most of them when he was here giving a seminar I hosted. Some other people on this forum, like Marty Goldberg, who also came to the seminar met them too.

Please understand, I don't owe you answers to your questions. You don't even train WCK, so what does it matter to you?

[goju]

It depends on where your learning your BJJ I guess. While we spent a lot more time on ground work we do train single and double leg takedowns, clinch fighting, pummeling and even some basic judo throws. A couple of the students were college level wrestlers and there was a bunch of people with high school wrestling experience (including myself).

I guess thats the difference between experience and reading what someone else says. I won't comment on GOJU because I don't know anything about it. Maybe you should apply the same logic to BJJ? :rolleyes:

im not saying bjj SUCKS i actually like the style alot and i trained in it for over a year and hopefully will get back to it again very soon as i was picking it up very well

im just saying its a bit unwise for soem one to make a compelte biased statement about an art he hasnt studied it makes you look ignorant

but dales known to come here for the sole purpose of attacking tma

[goju]

The point is there is much in TMA just has been proved to be ineffective.
show me where the reverse punch is ineffective i want you to go into detail about this punch



We can know many things from evidence of results or from just having a good grasp on the subject matter (like grappling).

oh so you just " know" things right? LOL




Again, you make assumptions -- I've trained with good wrestlers (both greco and free style) as well as good BJJ people. And your point is entirely mistaken as others have pointed out.
well you still havent answered my question what chin na experience did you have?


This is an open forum.
you dont say!




That's fine, no one can make you see sense. But I don't write to persuade you -- I think you're lost. I write to show others that you are lost. :)

lol yes because clearly people come from far and wide on the internet for your wisdom terrence







The WCK guys I train with are here in St. Louis. Robert's met most of them when he was here giving a seminar I hosted. Some other people on this forum, like Marty Goldberg, who also came to the seminar met them too.

Please understand, I don't owe you answers to your questions. You don't even train WCK, so what does it matter to you?

so theres just known as "the guys"

interesting name for a gym or school right there T

actually you do you go on about proper training and that youve done this and that and you wont even give a clear answer to who you train with
:D

[t_niehoff]

show me where the reverse punch is ineffective i want you to go into detail about this punch


I rest my case.

[goju]

I rest my case.

oh okay so you used your mystical "knowing" powers again? lol must be nice to have those handy

tell me what style you studied where you learned the punch?

who taught it toyou?

and explain to me why it doesnt work

or could it be that you cant because you yet again dont know what youre talking about?:rolleyes::D

[t_niehoff]

oh okay so you used your mystical "knowing" powers again? lol must be nice to have those handy

tell me what style you studied where you learned the punch?

who taught it toyou?

and explain to me why it doesnt work

or could it be that you cant because you yet again dont know what youre talking about?:rolleyes::D

Let's just leave it at you believe the karate reverse punch is effective. Nothing more needs be said.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let's just leave it at you believe the karate reverse punch is effective. Nothing more needs be said.

My reverse punch is quite excellent, thank you.

[goju]

My reverse punch is quite excellent, thank you.

you mean to tell me a simple direct linear strike with the lead hand works!!!!???:eek:

gasp!

[HumbleWCGuy]

There are thousands of clips of Muay Thai fights. Please point us to even one of those clips where a fight was finished with a standing arm bar.

Just one. Out of thousands.... just one.

The fact that you think there are arm bars in MT pretty much proves the point that, not only are you clueless about standing grappling clinch work, you are also clueless about Muay Thai.

You are a perfect example of a pretend, theoretical non-fighter who bases his conclusions on theories rather than demonstrable facts.


At this point, I am showing you what Duke Roufus thinks. Why don't you tell him that he is wrong? I am sure that Duke would love for you to express your opinion.

[goju]

Let's just leave it at you believe the karate reverse punch is effective. Nothing more needs be said.

still didnt answer my questions:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am still waiting to see a chin na free system of self-defense meeting the criteria that I have already listed.

[t_niehoff]

still didnt answer my questions:D

No need to answer questions -- you believe the karate reverse punch is effective. Case closed. End of story. Thank you very much.

[t_niehoff]

I am still waiting to see a chin na free system of self-defense meeting the criteria that I have already listed.

System of self-defense! LOL! Wink, wink. Say no more. Wink, wink.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There are thousands of clips of Muay Thai fights. Please point us to even one of those clips where a fight was finished with a standing arm bar.

Just one. Out of thousands.... just one.

The fact that you think there are arm bars in MT pretty much proves the point that, not only are you clueless about standing grappling clinch work, you are also clueless about Muay Thai.

You are a perfect example of a pretend, theoretical non-fighter who bases his conclusions on theories rather than demonstrable facts.

Bwhaaaahahahahaha Duke recounts a story in the clip about how is trainer used it. you just can't handle the fact that it is MT application that is outside your knowledge. It's obvious that your kickboxing training has been shoddy at best.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you mean to tell me a simple direct linear strike with the lead hand works!!!!???:eek:

gasp!

The reverse (Gyaku) punch is a rear hand punch, the lead hand is either a Oi Tzuki ( if you are stepping) or a kizami Tzuki if you are "jabbing".

[goju]

No need to answer questions -- you believe the karate reverse punch is effective. Case closed. End of story. Thank you very much.

**** t youre even failing at mouth boxing LOL!:D

[t_niehoff]

Bwhaaaahahahahaha Duke recounts a story in the clip about how is trainer used it. you just can't handle the fact that it is MT application that is outside your knowledge. It's obvious that your kickboxing training has been shoddy at best.

Nice try.

Fail.

[LoneTiger108]

Let's just leave it at you believe the karate reverse punch is effective. Nothing more needs be said.

FWIW Terence I also believe that the reverse punch (gyakazuki??) is effective 'in the right place at the right time', like most (if not all) Wing Chun techniqe.


The point is there is much in TMA just has been proved to be ineffective.

And more in TMA that has still to be shared. :rolleyes:

What was this thread about again?? :confused:

Why can't we just share and be happy? So much bickering and so little advice about Wing Chun....:o

[t_niehoff]

**** t youre even failing at mouth boxing LOL!:D

Thank you, Mr. karate reverse punch is effective.

[t_niehoff]

FWIW Terence I also believe that the reverse punch (gyakazuki??) is effective 'in the right place at the right time', like most (if not all) Wing Chun techniqe.


Thank you for joining the karate reverse punch is effective club.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FWIW Terence I also believe that the reverse punch (gyakazuki??) is effective 'in the right place at the right time', like most (if not all) Wing Chun techniqe.

Gyaku tzuki ( T is optional) is the correct term and yes, it is quite effective, just as is the straight to the body in boxing.

[goju]

Thank you, Mr. karate reverse punch is effective.
sanjuro beleives in it as well and hes fought i guess he doesnt know what hes talking about either compared to you and "the guys" right?

tell me where you learned the punch and why it failed for you please

[t_niehoff]

Gyaku tzuki ( T is optional) is the correct term and yes, it is quite effective, just as is the straight to the body in boxing.

Membership is growing in the karate reverse punch is effective club.

[goju]

Membership is growing in the karate reverse punch is effective club.
and its making you look foolish in the process

if only your lady friend was here to defend you

[LoneTiger108]

Membership is growing in the karate reverse punch is effective club.

:D :p

I had to 'lenghthen' this message to 10 characters!

Oops! Over done it again :o

[t_niehoff]

sanjuro beleives in it as well and hes fought i guess he doesnt know what hes talking about either compared to you and "the guys" right?

tell me where you learned the punch and why it failed for you please

I am not worthy of membership in the karate reverse punch is effective club.

[goju]

I am not worthy of membership in the karate reverse punch is effective club.

youre not worthy of being called a martial artist either but you still post here:rolleyes::D

[t_niehoff]

youre not worthy of being called a martial artist either but you still post here:rolleyes::D

I will concede that if one must be a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club to be a martial artist, then I am not worthy of that illustrious title either. I thank you.

[Knifefighter]

Bwhaaaahahahahaha Duke recounts a story in the clip about how is trainer used it. you just can't handle the fact that it is MT application that is outside your knowledge. It's obvious that your kickboxing training has been shoddy at best.

You are incredibly stupid, aren't you? He never said his trainer used it as a finishing lock. He said he followed it up with an elbow... which is a perfectly reasonable follow-up to that tech.

However, once again, if you had actually ever used that tech against someone with a decent plumb, you would already know that, more often than not, you will not be able to follow with the elbow because you will not get a clean release of the head.

It's obvious you've never fought MT, other than some made up version you got from videos and practice in your studio against your students.

[HumbleWCGuy]

System of self-defense! LOL! Wink, wink. Say no more. Wink, wink.

Did you defend the horrible WC that you learned this tenaciously? After you were embarrassed in a fight, it must have required a lot of soul searching to find a new idol to worship. You are headed for another soul searching event with this thick-headedness.

[LoneTiger108]

I am not worthy of membership in the karate reverse punch is effective club.

I'm sure that door will always remain open for you T :eek:

Maybe it's the Guiness, but I like this thread today!

First day back at work. What am I supposed to do?

[t_niehoff]

Did you defend the horrible WC that you learned this tenaciously? After you were embarrassed in a fight, it must have required a lot of soul searching to find a new idol to worship. You are headed for another soul searching event with this thick-headedness.

Do you believe the karate reverse punch is effective -- maybe for self-defense -- too? The club is looking for another member.

[t_niehoff]

I'm sure that door will always remain open for you T :eek:

Maybe it's the Guiness, but I like this thread today!

First day back at work. What am I supposed to do?

Thank you for the kind offer. But you know what Groucho Marx said . . .

[HumbleWCGuy]

You are incredibly stupid, aren't you? He never said his trainer used it as a finishing lock. He said he followed it up with an elbow... which is a perfectly reasonable follow-up to that tech.

However, once again, if you had actually ever used that tech against someone with a decent plumb, you would already know that, more often than not, you will not be able to follow with the elbow because you will not get a clean release of the head.

It's obvious you've never fought MT, other than some made up version you got from videos and practice in your studio against your students.

Again, the arm bar is used for control and a set-up maneuver. It is not used as a finishing hold in sport Muay Thai. Again, your foolishness prevents you from understanding the difference between MT application and BJJ application. Please recount your P.K.A. training to us.

[LoneTiger108]

Thank you for the kind offer. But you know what Groucho Marx said . . .

Enlighten us...

[HumbleWCGuy]

Nice try.

Fail.

Cold hard fact bro...

[goju]

I will concede that if one must be a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club to be a martial artist, then I am not worthy of that illustrious title either. I thank you.

sill dodged all the questions i asked you t

this really doesnt make you look good you know that?:D

[t_niehoff]

Enlighten us...

"I won't join any club that would have me as a member!"


So, I won't be joining the karate reverse punch is effective club. Sorry.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Membership is growing in the karate reverse punch is effective club.

Well, let me see....
I took out one guy that was 6-2 and 230 in Montreal Open Kyokushin match with it.
My boxing coaches all said I had one of the best "straights" they had ever seen and while I never KO'd anyone directly with it in boxing, I did make many cover up because of it.
I have made more than one grown man puke his Heineken because of it.
Sure, its not a "classic" reverse punch but then again, I am not a classical MA either.
Just a very good one.

[LoneTiger108]

Again, the arm bar is used for control and a set-up maneuver. It is not used as a finishing hold in sport Muay Thai. Again, your foolishness prevents you from understanding the difference between MT application and BJJ application. Please recount your P.K.A. training to us.

Whoa! :o

I didn't see that I've stumbled onto an ongoing chat that has taken up so much space here!

Sorry guys, I'll let you all thrash this one out. :D

MT? BJJ? Let me know when the Wing Chun is being talked about...

[t_niehoff]

sill dodged all the questions i asked you t

this really doesnt make you look good you know that?:D

I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that I don't look good to the members of the karate reverse punch is effective club. Such is life.

[goju]

Again, the arm bar is used for control and a set-up maneuver. It is not used as a finishing hold in sport Muay Thai. Again, your foolishness prevents you from understanding the difference between MT application and BJJ application. Please recount your P.K.A. training to us.

its obvious you couldnt finish someone in that it would be used to set up a strike duh:D:rolleyes:

[goju]

I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that I don't look good to the members of the karate reverse punch is effective club. .

or any other martial artist for that matter
:D

[t_niehoff]

Well, let me see....
I took out one guy that was 6-2 and 230 in Montreal Open Kyokushin match with it.


That's wonderful, a glowing testament to the effectiveness of the karate reverse punch!

I'm sure the club will use you in recruitment.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Whoa! :o

I didn't see that I've stumbled onto an ongoing chat that has taken up so much space here!

Sorry guys, I'll let you all thrash this one out. :D

MT? BJJ? Let me know when the Wing Chun is being talked about...

Yea, we proved these jokers wrong long ago so they have nothing left but trash talk. "When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither are on your side, just plain argue. "

BOOK IT BRO!!!

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's wonderful, a glowing testament to the effectiveness of the karate reverse punch!

I'm sure the club will use you in recruitment.

That's the standard punch of the karate that you practice.

[t_niehoff]

or any other martial artist for that matter
:D

Your razor wit cuts me to the quick.

[t_niehoff]

That's the standard punch of the karate that you practice.

I don't practice karate. I am not a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club.

[goju]

That's wonderful, a glowing testament to the effectiveness of the karate reverse punch!

I'm sure the club will use you in recruitment.
and tell us what martial artist you stopped that used the reverse punch?

tell us where you learned to counter the technique terrence:D

tell us who taught you the move as well
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's wonderful, a glowing testament to the effectiveness of the karate reverse punch!

I'm sure the club will use you in recruitment.

Now you are just being a **** tease !
:D

I assume your lack of understand and appreciation of a PROPER straight punch is due to your exposure to WC, the "sissy girl" of the MA world.

[LoneTiger108]

I don't practice karate. I am not a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club.

Neither do I, but I do have an appreciation for basics, as you do from what I've read.


I have made more than one grown man puke his Heineken because of it.
Sure, its not a "classic" reverse punch but then again, I am not a classical MA either.

:D Any Guinness men?? :cool:

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't practice karate. I am not a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club.

Whether you want to Identify BJJ as Brazilian karate/judo or not, Bjj uses the same stiking system as karate. If you are confused, watch UFC 1.

[t_niehoff]

Now you are just being a **** tease !
:D

I assume your lack of understand and appreciation of a PROPER straight punch is due to your exposure to WC, the "sissy girl" of the MA world.

I am sorry, I'm still trying to figure out how being able to pull off a karate reverse punch in a karate tournament makes a technique effective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am sorry, I'm still trying to figure out how being able to pull off a karate reverse punch in a karate tournament makes a technique effective.

That's because you lack chi. :D
That's like saying because I can pull off an ippon seio nage in a National championship in Judo, that it doesn't mean anything either.
Every fought kyokushin T?

[t_niehoff]

Whether you want to Identify BJJ as Brazilian karate/judo or not, Bjj uses the same stiking system as karate. If you are confused, watch UFC 1.

You really must stop trying to watch a bit of video and then extrapolating from your lack of genuine experience.

[t_niehoff]

That's because you lack chi. :D
That's like saying because I can pull off an ippon seio nage in a National championship in Judo, that it doesn't mean anything either.
Every fought kyokushin T?

No, I have never fought in a karate tournament. That may explain why I am not a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club.

[goju]

I am sorry, I'm still trying to figure out how being able to pull off a karate reverse punch in a karate tournament makes a technique effective.

ive used it sparring with boxers like sanjuro did as well

bloodied up their nose pretty well

and if you would ever answer me and tell em if these "guys" you roll with are anywhere near me id be happy to show them and they can tell you:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, I have never fought in a karate tournament. That may explain why I am not a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club.

I think you need to get laid, you sound cranky.

Tell me, where would it be easier to pull off an arm bar?
In Judo? Sport BJJ or a MMA match Vs a WC guy?

[HumbleWCGuy]

You really must stop trying to watch a bit of video and then extrapolating from your lack of genuine experience.

You are at a sport school so I am sure you have never seen the bjj striking.

[goju]

No, I have never fought in a karate tournament. That may explain why I am not a member of the karate reverse punch is effective club.

apparently strait direct punches dotn work in live setting according to t

**** and i was gonna work on my reverse punch today too:rolleyes::D

[LoneTiger108]

I am sorry, I'm still trying to figure out how being able to pull off a karate reverse punch in a karate tournament makes a technique effective.

Like I said, the right time and place... But you're now going into detail.

The punch itself is flawless in competition or not and is mirrored even in Wing Chun. ;)

[goju]

You are at a sport school so I am sure you have never seen the bjj striking.

i was shown a knee defense for a shoot at the bjj school i was at it was part of the gracie "street" stuff

[HumbleWCGuy]

i was shown a knee defense for a shoot at the bjj school i was at it was part of the gracie "street" stuff

I know. I am starting to wonder if niehoff even trains.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like I said, the right time and place... But you're now going into detail.

The punch itself is flawless in competition or not and is mirrored even in Wing Chun. ;)

Here is the thing, in kyokushin one EXPECTS to see the reverse punch, one lookks for it to counter it, just as one exptects to see the low round, the knees, etc.
It is a lot harder to hit someone with something they are expecting than to hit them with something they aren't.
It is a lot harder to hip throw a Judoka in a judo match then some butt wipe that can barely stand as it is.

[goju]

I think you need to get laid, you sound cranky.

what woman would sleep with him?
he is a little weener boy who lacks chi and cant even throw a proper manly reverse punch:D

[t_niehoff]

Like I said, the right time and place... But you're now going into detail.

The punch itself is flawless in competition or not and is mirrored even in Wing Chun. ;)

I am not surprised that members of the karate reverse punch is effective club revel in its sublime beauty and see it everywhere.

[t_niehoff]

i was shown a knee defense for a shoot at the bjj school i was at it was part of the gracie "street" stuff

More brilliant stuff. Using the knee to defend the shoot. Brilliant. Keep it coming, man!

[HumbleWCGuy]

sill dodged all the questions i asked you t

this really doesnt make you look good you know that?:D

They have to because they are wrong and you know that they can't admit it.

[goju]

I know. I am starting to wonder if niehoff even trains.

im sure his fingers get quite the work out typing his responses but thats about it:D

[LoneTiger108]

Here is the thing, in kyokushin one EXPECTS to see the reverse punch, one lookks for it to counter it, just as one exptects to see the low round, the knees, etc.

No. Here's the thing...

A perfect reverse punch is not expected, and is not defensible. Kinda like Terence... :eek:

Too much Guinness :(