What is Wing Chun for??

[sihing]

Okay, following the lead in a few of Terence's threads, to which I interpret him saying that application can only be learned by doing it, by sparring/fighting. I totally agree with this, to become better at something you have to do that something, and if it happens to be fighting then you must fight consistently to obtain the skills to fight.

If that is true then what value does Wing Chun have for one interested in fighting and or combat application. For me I've learned that WC is mostly about attribute/structure/body mechanics development, pure training and development of your tools, not about application. It teaches the body how to generate certain reflexes towards incoming pressure, how to handle that pressure while strengthen the person's body mechanics and structure while doing it. It's all about what to do when contact is made while inclose and striking (there are other subskills as well). When in this situation what do you do? Do you disengage, do you maintain contact but deflect that energy, do you smash thru it, do you go around it, all or none of the above? If you do one or more of the above, how do you do that?

I think a discussion on this would be interesting. For me, my thinking about WC has changed dramatically over the last few years and still is today in a subtle way.
What I see online (youtube), and what I hear coming out of allot of the instructors mouths is totally contray to what I believe WC is. I see allot of people protecting their organizations/ego's/income streams. They protect there own thoughts and belief's partially because they place their identity inline with their belief's. If you disagree with them (as can be seen in some recent threads), they attack you personally, because they perceive your disagreement as a personal attack, when in truth it isn't, just a disagreement towards an idea or way of doing things.

To get things started, what is dan chi for? For me it is a way to teach the body (waist, hips, elbow) basic attacking lines and structure/unity from an inside line (tan position), and how to defend/attack from an outside line with structure/unity (fok position), in a prolonged contact situation (training). So whenever you are in a situation where you have outside contact on someone's arm (which would happen allot when you fight on the inside), your body already knows what to do, what to protect and how to attack at the sametime, it has a reflex built in, since in real application you will never have the prolonged contact situation that you have in a drill, you have to make it an instinctual second nature response. Visa versa on the inside. SEE Kevin G posts for more detail. Now to bring it to a more realistic level, you can start from a non contact situation, have someone throw jabs at you or you intiate a jab and go from there, isolated sparring drill persay, and then kick it up a notch and add it in to sparring whenever you feel like later on. That's my basic take on it. What do you think of the dan chi drill, what does it teach you and your students, just to get things started?

Feel free to discuss other drills and such to bring about a better understanding of the how's and why's.

I guess in the end it comes down to do you think WC adds effectiveness to your combat skills? I say Yes it does, based on my experience with it. It will not guarantee success everytime, no art or training method can say that, nor will it make me able to handle a pro or semi pro for that matter, as they are in a different league, different mindset and operate with different intentions. How can one that trains only a few hours each week, deal successfull and consistently with someone that is training a few hours each day. You may get lucky a few times, but the percentages are not in your favor.


James

[sanjuro_ronin]

To me, WC develops a skill set that allows for fighting inside a phone booth, you don't get that with boxing ( not to the extent you get in WC).
That said I tend to think that most people should go from "long hand to short hand" and that most that I have seen that have gone directly to short hand tend to be "missing something" that takes longer to develop.
My 2 cents.

[Ali. R]

Wing Chun is nothing more then a journey of enlightenment finding myself on a higher level of understanding, not just martial but in life overall, really the martial and fighting concepts are far much to boring for me, been there done that.


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

Agreed. I use that phone booth analogy all the time. And I agree that learning how to enter is another piece missing from the pie, as you do get situations where you may have to line up with a guy to be able to use your tools in the right range. That is why I like to teach the drills in a traditional way, then show a more realistic application of it. I personally believe WC is a counter striking art, problem is if the guy is good you may be a step behind and not able to gain the upper hand, it comes down to timing and distance control in those situations.

James

[sihing]

Wing Chun is nothing more then a journey of enlightenment finding myself on a higher level of understanding, not just martial but in life overall, really the martial and fighting concepts are far much to boring for me, been there done that.


Ali Rahim.

That's all good as well. Whenever you apply yourself to any endeavour with dedication and consistency, it will uplift your life, if you are aware enough, aware of your own thoughts, your skills, and what you want out of it. Me, I'm no fighter, I practice and teach WC for my own enjoyment, people learn from me because they like the material and believe it has some value to them in relation to combat. I've gotten much more out of Wing Chun than fighting skills, and I don't look at it exclusively that way, as strictly a fighting method, since it isn't, it's more about training and refinement of tools. To each their own.

My thread here is a specific one, relating to what value Wing Chun has to those that are interested in combat effectiveness.

James

[grasshopper 2.0]

I think WC is simply to make us better boxers, where "boxer" is defined as a fighter who uses fists to knock the opponent out (not necessarily the western boxer style of fighting). I think that's the ultimate goal of WC. I do not see WC as discriminating between phone booth fighting or long range fighting..or at least casted as that role.

Dan chi is just a tool to take us to chi-sao and chi-sao is a tool to get us to the above goal.

[sihing]

I think WC is simply to make us better boxers, where "boxer" is defined as a fighter who uses fists to knock the opponent out (not necessarily the western boxer style of fighting). I think that's the ultimate goal of WC. I do not see WC as discriminating between phone booth fighting or long range fighting..or at least casted as that role.

Dan chi is just a tool to take us to chi-sao and chi-sao is a tool to get us to the above goal.

I see your point, and I agree that yes in the end we are training to become fist fighters (with a few low kicks addin for realism). But it can be said that the WC method of fist fighting is applied differently than a boxer's method or a MT method. There are different setups, structurally, mechanically, strategy wise as well.

Maybe you could expand on your thoughts on chi sau. If dan chi is only meant to get us to chi sau, why not just do dbl arm chi sau? For me there is a difference. Dbl arm, especially when movement is added, teaches allot of about facing, and keeping dual pressure from both limbs. Facing is important as it keeps our tools/weapons facing the action, plus it allows us to use the power from the legs in our actions. Dual energy in our limbs keeps the attacks coming constantly towards our opponent, with each limb being training to change from attack to defense and back to attacking again in a ever changing enviornment. Dan chi is basic and isolated, one hand at a time. When things go wrong in the other drills we go back to dan chi to isolate and correct, since it is pretty simple. (just trying to bring about the details here, the how's and why's, instead of generalizing.)


James

[grasshopper 2.0]

I see your point, and I agree that yes in the end we are training to become fist fighters (with a few low kicks addin for realism). But it can be said that the WC method of fist fighting is applied differently than a boxer's method or a MT method. There are different setups, structurally, mechanically, strategy wise as well.

Maybe you could expand on your thoughts on chi sau. If dan chi is only meant to get us to chi sau, why not just do dbl arm chi sau? For me there is a difference. Dbl arm, especially when movement is added, teaches allot of about facing, and keeping dual pressure from both limbs.

James

I think on the surface, as well as initially, WC appears different from that of MT or the western boxer. But the end product, WC can look very similar to MT/boxing. It's my opinion, but i think that after we do all that training (stance, tan sao, wu sao, etc), we are to throw all of those positions away, and keep the function. So in essence, the tan sao function is there, but maybe not performed in a tan-sao appearance.

In terms of chi-sao, yea good point. i suppose you can just throw them into Chi-sao and skip the dan chi. The same can be said about chi-sao itself. just skip that and go into fighting..which is what the boxer would do.

In the WC context of fighting, arm sensitivity is a huge component, so chi-sao for us is very important. dan chi is not required, but it's simply "training wheels" to get to chi-sao.

your thoughts/

[Ali. R]

That's all good as well. Whenever you apply yourself to any endeavour with dedication and consistency, it will uplift your life, if you are aware enough, aware of your own thoughts, your skills, and what you want out of it. Me, I'm no fighter, I practice and teach WC for my own enjoyment, people learn from me because they like the material and believe it has some value to them in relation to combat. I've gotten much more out of Wing Chun than fighting skills, and I don't look at it exclusively that way, as strictly a fighting method, since it isn't, it's more about training and refinement of tools. To each their own.

My thread here is a specific one, relating to what value Wing Chun has to those that are interested in combat effectiveness.

James


And that’s what one should be looking for, an ending to a beginning. (enlightenment)... We all think differently, and that is what wing chun is to me as your title expressed, and I will express that here on this forum any time the question every comes up again.

Thank you,

The problem with your phone booth is: you can’t find a phone booth in 85% of the country; try a toilet stall in the subway, which might work out just fine…


Take care,



Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

I think on the surface, as well as initially, WC appears different from that of MT or the western boxer. But the end product, WC can look very similar to MT/boxing. It's my opinion, but i think that after we do all that training (stance, tan sao, wu sao, etc), we are to throw all of those positions away, and keep the function. So in essence, the tan sao function is there, but maybe not performed in a tan-sao appearance.

In terms of chi-sao, yea good point. i suppose you can just throw them into Chi-sao and skip the dan chi. The same can be said about chi-sao itself. just skip that and go into fighting..which is what the boxer would do.

In the WC context of fighting, arm sensitivity is a huge component, so chi-sao for us is very important. dan chi is not required, but it's simply "training wheels" to get to chi-sao.

your thoughts/

For me, when fighting or sparring there is no regard for appearence, of whether or not I am exibiting what I do in training, since training is not application.

I've learned that economy of motion doesn't necessarily mean less movement, it also can mean using what you know when you need it. For example, fok sau, can teach us how to protect our centerline when contact is made on the outside while maintaining a forward springlike pressure. That precise elbow position and feeling does not always have to be there when you strike, but once that position is made and that pressure is felt, your fok response can come out then.

We don't fight or live our lives with our elbows attached to our centerlines, they are only needed to create a line of force, but the training also refines how we would naturally strike, as most people strike with an elbow out structure, which is weak if you don't know what you are doing like a boxer. Elbow in is strong, as can be proven when you have someone push on your fist, from either a elbow out or elbow in position you should feel a difference in the force you feel, and what mucscles engage or don't.

Arm sensitivity is important in WC because we are more contact fighters than boxers, we fight closer in to jam up their abilty to fire, so we can't rely upon our eye reflexes as much. Fighting actions change as range changes, wrestlers don't fight like TKD guys.

James

[sihing]

And that’s what one should be looking for, an ending to a beginning. (enlightenment)... We all think differently, and that is what wing chun is to me as your title expressed, and I will express that here on this forum any time the question every comes up again.

Thank you,

The problem with your phone booth is: you can’t find a phone booth in 85% of the country; try a toilet stall in the subway, which might work out just fine…


Take care,



Ali Rahim.

Enlightenment is a individual thing. We are all searching for something, even though the important things are already within us. So I see what your saying, and we are all on different levels of understanding and with different intention towards what WC may mean to us. I use it as well in everyday life, I don't chase hands in WC nor in life as best I can, and try to walk a straight path towards peace and inner contentment:)

James

[Ali. R]

You’re right,

Never chase hands and always go to the grill for real, because if one is soft never lay under anything hard…:)


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Enlightenment is a individual thing.

James


And so is one choice in technique and applications…


Ali Rahim.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun Kung Fu is primarily a fighting art, but one can also learn and develop other things from it's study and practice: sound body alignment and posture, chi breathing development to increase one's inner vitality, focus and concentration, a sense of discipline, etc.

But it is primarily a fighting art.

And as a fighting art it is primarily a close quarter standup striking art that also utilizes kicking technique, some basic standing armlocks, and some basic sweeps/takedowns.

And it's best used in street combat since one is usually going to be in close standup range more often than not in everyday life experiences that might turn violent anyway...(No, just in a phonebooth, LOL)...and wherein going to a full clinch or the ground might not be the smartest thing to do if it can be avoided.

And dan chi sao (and any other aspect/drill/training regimen one might care to mention) is geared to do just what I've described: teach one how to fight at close range.

[Vajramusti]

Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

On Reference to dan chi sao- In Ip man wc-dan chi sao is very important and is an important prelude to other forms of chi sao including poon/luk/lop-dan loosens up one side at a time while developing all sides of each bridge hand- and teaches hand balance, control and attack properly when properly done.

On reference to drills involving the jab- be careful about any assumption of "blocking" a good jab.
Good structure and timing gives better wc alternatives .

Same topics come in cycles on forums and the threads run off in different directions, pften avoiding analysis.

Cheers and happy new year.

joy chaudhuri

[sihing]

Wing Chun Kung Fu is primarily a fighting art, but one can also learn and develop other things from it's study and practice: sound body alignment and posture, chi breathing development to increase one's inner vitality, focus and concentration, a sense of discipline, etc.

But it is primarily a fighting art.

And as a fighting art it is primarily a close quarter standup striking art that also utilizes kicking technique, some basic standing armlocks, and some basic sweeps/takedowns.

And it's best used in street combat since one is usually going to be in close standup range more often than not in everyday life experiences that might turn violent anyway...(No, just in a phonebooth, LOL)...and wherein going to a full clinch or the ground might not be the smartest thing to do if it can be avoided.

And dan chi sao (and any other aspect/drill/training regimen one might care to mention) is geared to do just what I've described: teach one how to fight at close range.

Agreed (seem to be saying that alot on this thread:)) for the most part on what you say above Vic. Dan chi, the example I used, does it teach one to fight or does it train something that can be used in a fight? I've never seen two people line up to fight one another in a dan chi position. Please feel free to give details on your dan chi drill, the how's and why's, as well as any other drills that can translate to fighting skills. For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws out his palm strike from tan, how does your fok react, and why does it react that way, and what is the relevance to combat by doing it the way you do? Since this is a forum we might as well get into details on things, right?

The point of this thread is what is the value of Wing Chun training in relation to combat effectiveness. We all know it is used for the most part in close range, but why is that the case, and how do we learn to function in that range thru WC training?

James

[sihing]

....
On reference to drills involving the jab- be careful about any assumption of "blocking" a good jab.
Good structure and timing gives better wc alternatives .....


Cheers and happy new year.

joy chaudhuri

Hi Joy:)

On reference to the jab drill I mentioned. I use it as a progression from prolonged contact drills (chi sau/laap sau), to non contact situations. The jab would not be "blocked" persay but taken care of by our own hit over top (fok concept). I totally agree, it comes down to timing and good structure, with the timing being different when it comes from a non contacted positon as compared to a proloned contacted position in chi sau or pak sau drills, which allows someone not familiar with this method a chance to learn the structure better, rather than having him face 1000 jabs in a row. I'm sure as you begin to face more jabs from a varied selection of people the better your timing will get, which means better % of success in a fight using this idea. My thoughts on this are if the guy is close enough to strike me and make contact so am I so I don't necessarily wait for his strike to come in, even though there may be contact if we both strike towards one another simultaneously.

Just sharing thoughts on things here, I know in a fight there is little time for thought, or at the least there shouldn't be.

Happy New Year to you as well..

James

[Ali. R]

But what is, speaks for itself…


Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

You know, after punching and kicking for so many years, I find the part self-development and helping the weak more constructive rather then trying to be the best fighter in the world.

The self-defense part is secondary, because how many times will one get in a street fight pass the age of 35 in their life time. I’ve haven’t been in one…


Same topics come in cycles on forums and the threads run off in different directions, pften avoiding analysis.

Really?


On Reference to dan chi sao- In Ip man wc-dan chi sao is very important and is an important prelude to other forms of chi sao including poon/luk/lop-dan loosens up one side at a time while developing all sides of each bridge hand- and teaches hand balance, control and attack properly when properly done.

On reference to drills involving the jab- be careful about any assumption of "blocking" a good jab.
Good structure and timing gives better wc alternatives..

joy chaudhuri

What it is speaks for itself, This way; you have more opportunities to develop one-self and helping others…



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Threads run off in different directions, pften avoiding analysis.

I’m looking but I can’t see where this has been analyzed; subject at hand, just below… Are you saying that drills and chi sao are self-defense, because that’s the only outline that your reference covers within the confines of the statement below?


Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

This is all I see.


run off in different directions

What did you mean by this statement?


avoiding analysis.

Analyzing what, this?


Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self development, for self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.



Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Okay, following the lead in a few of Terence's threads, to which I interpret him saying that application can only be learned by doing it, by sparring/fighting. I totally agree with this, to become better at something you have to do that something, and if it happens to be fighting then you must fight consistently to obtain the skills to fight.


Yeah, it's just common sense.



If that is true then what value does Wing Chun have for one interested in fighting and or combat application. For me I've learned that WC is mostly about attribute/structure/body mechanics development, pure training and development of your tools, not about application.


I don't think you are alone in your POV. However, I think it is fundamentally flawed. Let me explain: without application as a guide or reference, we can do anything, practice any way we like, adopt any body structure, etc. -- who is to say what is right or what is wrong? Without application, you can do anything. It is application that keeps us on the right (for us) track.

I suggest that you may want to start looking at WCK from a skill-based perspective. In other words, what you are trying to develop are skills (the ability to perform various tasks with max certainty and min time/effort). You see, you can't separate attribute development/structure/body mechanics from application. Those are simply elements in the application, in the doing.

Consider surfing as an analogy -- how could someone work on the attribute/structure/body mechanics of surfing without regard to actually surfing? It would make no sense. And -- this is critical -- it is only by and through actually surfing that you develop those elements. You can't develop structure/attributes/body mechanics outside of application. WCK is in the application. It is not the forms or the drills --it only comes alive in application, the fighting itself.

[t_niehoff]

To me, WC develops a skill set that allows for fighting inside a phone booth, you don't get that with boxing ( not to the extent you get in WC).


That is my view as well. I think WCK is an approach to fighting and a (flawed) training method that provides a method (a strategic plan) and skills to get close and stay there, fighting in a phone both. In a nutshell, I think that approach is to control your opponent while striking him.

[Ali. R]

The problem is that people will fall for anything that anyone says without evidence, it has to work of it’s worthless…

This is how one can stick their chest out, just because they’re associated or know someone half famous and will say anything without merit (it’s sad) and people will fall for it over, and over again…

If you really train hard and have no issues with yourself, then one will find out real fast that; “it’s not how good one is, but how good one could be…

Olds guys please move out the way either fight or teach and don’t lie…

One can see it doesn’t work; and still follow…

One can feel it doesn’t work and still follow…

If one has reading comprehension skills they can clearly see falsehood in the writing, but still follow…

Welcome to Jamestown U.S.A.

It can be really disappointing when you really look up to someone and they slip up with inconsistence weirdness…



Ali Rahim.

[LoneTiger108]

The point of this thread is what is the value of Wing Chun training in relation to combat effectiveness. We all know it is used for the most part in close range, but why is that the case, and how do we learn to function in that range thru WC training?

James

Combat effectiveness is naturally developed through specific good old fashioned Martial Art training, and I wouldn't specifically say that you need Wing Chun to fight or to develop fighting skills. Just determination and courage imo.

For me Wing Chun is just one persons viewpoint on what they needed at the time and in most cases I see these days Wing Chun has been pretty much 'frozen in time'. By that I mean that we may tend to spend too much time 'repeating what Sifu done' or copying one persons take on one technique instead of using the knowledge of the style to develop your own true martial-self. I'm an advocate of coaching a strong foundation that allows individual exploration.

Why do we specialize in close range? Maybe it's based in the fact that Wing Chun hand work originates from the knives, and if we want a similar comparison for long range then the hand work originates from the pole. Without these weapon based interventions our hand work could become a little deluded and confused. Functionality comes from confidence with our whole bodies motion.

What is all that for?? I have to agree with Joy on this one and refer to the older masters viewpoint highlighting Martial Art for self development, self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

[Ali. R]

Next thing you know, you’re selling your BODY,,,,, standing the ally, SWEATING,,,with no shirt on…

Not for no money, but just one bit off the MAN’S sandwich….

Charlie Murphy
Roll Bounces,

May your New Year be blessed,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Hey T,

I sure it’s not fundamentally flawed (wing chun), could it just be that you haven’t ran into a teacher that can help make your fundamentals come to life…

I would love to workout with you and maybe we can find some answers together, just a thought…

I don’t deviate…

A lot of these guys will say and do anything…


Ali Rahim.

[dirtyrat]

For me Wing Chun is just one persons viewpoint on what they needed at the time and in most cases I see these days Wing Chun has been pretty much 'frozen in time'. By that I mean that we may tend to spend too much time 'repeating what Sifu done' or copying one persons take on one technique instead of using the knowledge of the style to develop your own true martial-self. I'm an advocate of coaching a strong foundation that allows individual exploration.

Why do we specialize in close range? Maybe it's based in the fact that Wing Chun hand work originates from the knives, and if we want a similar comparison for long range then the hand work originates from the pole. Without these weapon based interventions our hand work could become a little deluded and confused. Functionality comes from confidence with our whole bodies motion.

Good post!

Training should revolve around developing the efficiency of our techniques. Techniques are just a means to an end. Tradition is a good thing so long as we keep in mind that tradition was created for people and that tradition should never be more important than the people it was created for.

[Saboi Osmosis]

What is Wing Chun for.....

for me its about learning how to fight, and knuckling down and learning something i feel is priceless.

one other reason i train that others have not mentioned is FUN

you gotta enjoy it, I guess to really get something out of it.

[dirtyrat]

There are historians who believe that Chinese boxing (structural body mechanics, sensitivity drills, iron body conditioning, etc) was used as a foundation to weapons training. That along with weight training, running, jumping, etc.

However, weapons usage (swords & spears) was top priorty back in the days. No one goes to war without weapons...

With the invention of firearms, the emphasis of training shifted from weapons to empty hands. This was probably done more for recreational purposes.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Agreed (seem to be saying that alot on this thread) for the most part on what you say above Vic. Dan chi, the example I used, does it teach one to fight or does it train something that can be used in a fight?" (James)

***IT TEACHES one how to deflect an incoming force downward when your hand/arm is on top of his - while maintaining a strong balance and body alignment/strucure....and it teaches you how to deflect a force that coming in at you when your arm is underneath - and both skills can be valuable in real fighting.
..........................................


"Please feel free to give details on your dan chi drill, the how's and why's, as well as any other drills that can translate to fighting skills. For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws out his palm strike from tan, how does your fok react, and why does it react that way, and what is the relevance to combat by doing it the way you do? Since this is a forum we might as well get into details on things, right?" (James)

***THE EXAMPLES from other drills are too numerous to mention here in detail, but I will name some of them in passing: luk sao (rolling hands)...taking his arms off-line during the roll and he must return to the centerline...countless other things that can come out of double arm chi sao (see my "channel" on youtube for the 13 vids I did about double arm chi sao)...

and there are some basic pak sao/pak da drills....some bong sao/lop sao drills that involve (in TWC anyway) more than just a stationary bong/lop/straight punch scenario....there are other parallel arm drills and cross arm drills that start from contact, and others that start from non contact...There are Wooden Dummy moves that can be trained as drills with a partner...

ETC.

As regards your specific remarks about fok sao defending against the palm strike: The fuk sao must GO FORWARD as your wrist juts downward in order to eat his space....the fighting situation that I use most frequently with this scenario is against a straight hard punch being thrown by his rear hand (like a rear cross) when his punch his aimed at my body - and we are in a parallel position to each other; ie.- he's in a left hand/left leg lead stance and throws his low rear cross at my body...and I am in a right hand/right leg lead postion:

my left hand/arm can do a pak/jut to deflect his punch downward - but I must be coming with some forward force and then immediately throw a punch with my right arm/hand to put him on defense (and there's some slight footwork/shifting involved with this also).

...............................................

"We all know it is used for the most part in close range, but why is that the case, and how do we learn to function in that range thru WC training?" (James)

***IT'S THE CASE, as I explained many times before, because wing chun (mostly vertical) punching his much less shoulder movement than other striking systems (ie.- boxing)...and therefore is structurally a shorter reaching punch/strike.

We learn to function in that range, in my opinion, by learning how to use other, longer range moves to get to that range....and to return to that range when we are no longer there.

[Wayfaring]

I personally find that my manipulation of range, striking in short range including power, and control of my opponent on the inside has vastly increased due to my WC training. Just sensitivity training in a bridge scenario is worthwhile. My understanding of true structure including body part alignment is a lot better, facing, and understanding of space and the occupation of it. Also, it has increased my ability in the counterpunching strategy.

It has not taught me long range striking or footwork, clinch fighting including against an obstacle like a cage or wall, or any workable ground skills at all. Those have had to be cross-trained.

[Ali. R]

As Yip Man says, “self-development” (enlightenment), if you cannot find yourself first, from a basic point of view (stance) you will never have any skills what so every, it’s hard work to find oneself and that’s why most never talk about it (stance)…

That alone is enlightenment or self-development finding oneself in the simplest form of martial ideal (stance). If one doesn’t understand this he will always just talk drills, applications and forms… Because one truly doesn’t know whom he or she is within the system of wing chun.

Wing Chun isn’t for weapons, drills, chi sao or applications… Listen to it, it doesn’t even sound right…

wing chun for weapons, drills, chi sao or applications

It’s for one who will take her unconditionally, one who will find oneself within every level of the system to the point one will find oneself whole within the system…

Wing Chun is for (enlightenment), as Yip Man says, “self-development”…

Until one understands this, they will always have poor wing chun.


Ali Rahim.

[Wayfaring]

As Yip Man says, “self-development” (enlightenment), if you cannot find yourself first, from a basic point of view (stance) you will never have any skills what so every, it’s hard work to find oneself and that’s why most never talk about it (stance)…


You know, the whole mantra about "finding yourself" and "self development" is a very appealing one to the masses. It makes people sound so spiritual and philosophical.

But a lot of this mentality is used to avoid critical thinking and real application development. "If you cannot find yourself first, you'll never have any skills".

In today's world, wing chun people would do a lot better spending less time "finding themselves" and more time "finding a ground game", so they don't closely resemble Asbel Cancio in a real fight.

I mean, that mentality really wouldn't even work in grade school. Ex:

"Johnny, what are you doing?"
"I'm finding myself, ma'am"
"Well don't do it here in class, go do it in the bathroom"

:D:D:D

[Ali. R]

If you can’t find yourself within the system from the first thing you learn to the last (each level) then the system will never find you…

That common mind has to many excuses for not achieving excellence…

Lazy mind,


Ali Rahim.

[Wayfaring]

That common mind has to many excuses for not achieving excellence…

Lazy mind,


Ali Rahim.

Which is why most wing chun practitioners never cross-train in anything outside the system, and as a result have low level fighting skills.

[t_niehoff]

Hey T,

I sure it’s not fundamentally flawed (wing chun), could it just be that you haven’t ran into a teacher that can help make your fundamentals come to life…

I would love to workout with you and maybe we can find some answers together, just a thought…

I don’t deviate…

A lot of these guys will say and do anything…


Ali Rahim.

I think you may have misunderstood me -- I'm not saying anything about WCK, just about his view (his view is fundamentally flawed). The fundamental flaw arises from not looking at things from a skill-based perspective.

As far as making your WCK fundamentals come alive -- that is beyond the role of a teacher. That comes from your training/sparring partners.

[t_niehoff]

As Yip Man says, “self-development” (enlightenment), if you cannot find yourself first, from a basic point of view (stance) you will never have any skills what so every, it’s hard work to find oneself and that’s why most never talk about it (stance)…

That alone is enlightenment or self-development finding oneself in the simplest form of martial ideal (stance). If one doesn’t understand this he will always just talk drills, applications and forms… Because one truly doesn’t know whom he or she is within the system of wing chun.

Wing Chun isn’t for weapons, drills, chi sao or applications… Listen to it, it doesn’t even sound right…

wing chun for weapons, drills, chi sao or applications

It’s for one who will take her unconditionally, one who will find oneself within every level of the system to the point one will find oneself whole within the system…

Wing Chun is for (enlightenment), as Yip Man says, “self-development”…

Until one understands this, they will always have poor wing chun.


Ali Rahim.

The thing is you can say this about anything -- (american) football is for self-development, for example (and I use it as an example since I'm watching some games). OK, sure, it can be. But that sort of self-development comes from the DISCIPLINE the training instills.

But to say WCK or football in not about anything except self-development I think is missing the forrest for the trees.

And I don't think much of "finding oneself" -- I think that's a lot of psychobabble. Certainly athlectic training can help you explore certain of your potentials but life is much, much, much more than WCK or athletics, and so there is much, much, much more we learn about ourselves through life.

Happy New Year!

[Ali. R]

You will never have self-defense until one began in self-development, well, you can, but it will be sloppy is hell or work very, very bad…

When you train for years it’s hard to start over.

This was myself 25 years ago.

False to reason, forever self-rationalizing as my enter rage, at my own impotents and failure drips from every word that came from my mouth about wing chun while I almost quit (it really hurts when something fails you) until I realize I had no self-development or worth of any kind in each level, wing chun never recognized me until I recognized myself.

There's nothing one can say about wing chun that can destroy it or desiccate her value…

I’m not saying my way is right I’m just saying “self-development” (enlightenment) in every step of the way in your training, will truly bring your fundamentals to life…

Stay Blessed


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

Which is why most wing chun practitioners never cross-train in anything outside the system, and as a result have low level fighting skills.

I don't think people in WC have low level fighting skills because of the lack of cross training. Unless I want to compete, which I personally have no interest in, I don't believe we have to cross train in anything else. Who's to say that I can't train like a MT guy in my WC class? And by that I don't mean I am doing MT, but taking their training method, and applying in class.

IMO WC people have low level fighting skills because 1) they don't understand what WC is, they try to fight or exibit what they do in training in a fight (e.g. pronounced man/wu sau guard, inmobile stances standing there like a tree, trying to use static shapes to defend attacks, trying to use techniques/pre arranged sequences against random attacks, etc.. 2) they don't realize there is a difference between training, which is strict and precise/structured and applicaton which is natural movement and unrestrictive with the hope that the training has influenced positively how you will fight, 3) sparring with other people from other systems, not necessarily with the intent to defeat them, but to experience what it is like to move around with someone unfamiliar and different.

I know lots of people that practice WC that have done quite well against other people from Karate, MT, wrestling, etc... They've learned to use the art for themselves, not be a slave to it, which unfortunately is the biggest problem in the WC world today, people are slaves to it, their lineage and teachers.

James

[sihing]

Combat effectiveness is naturally developed through specific good old fashioned Martial Art training, and I wouldn't specifically say that you need Wing Chun to fight or to develop fighting skills. Just determination and courage imo.

For me Wing Chun is just one persons viewpoint on what they needed at the time and in most cases I see these days Wing Chun has been pretty much 'frozen in time'. By that I mean that we may tend to spend too much time 'repeating what Sifu done' or copying one persons take on one technique instead of using the knowledge of the style to develop your own true martial-self. I'm an advocate of coaching a strong foundation that allows individual exploration.

Why do we specialize in close range? Maybe it's based in the fact that Wing Chun hand work originates from the knives, and if we want a similar comparison for long range then the hand work originates from the pole. Without these weapon based interventions our hand work could become a little deluded and confused. Functionality comes from confidence with our whole bodies motion.

What is all that for?? I have to agree with Joy on this one and refer to the older masters viewpoint highlighting Martial Art for self development, self defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

I'm not sure if WC hands are derived from the knives, since knife fighting would not happen at the same range I apply my hands, especially our WC knives. In WSL method, the knife training adds another deminsion to your hand fighting, angles, distancing, killer instinct and other things that I'm no expert on. The pole is there to increase and optimize our structure for our hand fighting, although Gary Lam did show me some hand techniques that are derived from the pole, I don't believe this is the general purpose of the excersises, but rather just something he thought up.

For me, Wing Chun is based on many person's viewpoints, each generation back to the originators to be exact. Yip Man made adaptions, as well as WSL, Gary Lam and my present coach Ernie Barrios. Even within the WSL line alone there are many variations on things and different approaches. It all depends on who you are training with, who you are learning from. My Bro Ernie is constantly looking at the system, trying to improve upon and make it simplier in application. On my recent trip there, many adaptations were taught, even to the basic dan chi drill, so from my perspective Wing Chun is very "Unfrozen in time".

James

[sihing]

"Agreed (seem to be saying that alot on this thread) for the most part on what you say above Vic. Dan chi, the example I used, does it teach one to fight or does it train something that can be used in a fight?" (James)

***IT TEACHES one how to deflect an incoming force downward when your hand/arm is on top of his - while maintaining a strong balance and body alignment/strucure....and it teaches you how to deflect a force that coming in at you when your arm is underneath - and both skills can be valuable in real fighting.
..........................................


"Please feel free to give details on your dan chi drill, the how's and why's, as well as any other drills that can translate to fighting skills. For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws For example, when you are in fok position and your partner throws out his palm strike from tan, how does your fok react, and why does it react that way, and what is the relevance to combat by doing it the way you do? Since this is a forum we might as well get into details on things, right?" (James)

***THE EXAMPLES from other drills are too numerous to mention here in detail, but I will name some of them in passing: luk sao (rolling hands)...taking his arms off-line during the roll and he must return to the centerline...countless other things that can come out of double arm chi sao (see my "channel" on youtube for the 13 vids I did about double arm chi sao)...

and there are some basic pak sao/pak da drills....some bong sao/lop sao drills that involve (in TWC anyway) more than just a stationary bong/lop/straight punch scenario....there are other parallel arm drills and cross arm drills that start from contact, and others that start from non contact...There are Wooden Dummy moves that can be trained as drills with a partner...

ETC.

As regards your specific remarks about fok sao defending against the palm strike: The fuk sao must GO FORWARD as your wrist juts downward in order to eat his space....the fighting situation that I use most frequently with this scenario is against a straight hard punch being thrown by his rear hand (like a rear cross) when his punch his aimed at my body - and we are in a parallel position to each other; ie.- he's in a left hand/left leg lead stance and throws his low rear cross at my body...and I am in a right hand/right leg lead postion:

my left hand/arm can do a pak/jut to deflect his punch downward - but I must be coming with some forward force and then immediately throw a punch with my right arm/hand to put him on defense (and there's some slight footwork/shifting involved with this also).

...............................................

"We all know it is used for the most part in close range, but why is that the case, and how do we learn to function in that range thru WC training?" (James)

***IT'S THE CASE, as I explained many times before, because wing chun (mostly vertical) punching his much less shoulder movement than other striking systems (ie.- boxing)...and therefore is structurally a shorter reaching punch/strike.

We learn to function in that range, in my opinion, by learning how to use other, longer range moves to get to that range....and to return to that range when we are no longer there.

If I told you Vic that you can learn to deflect the tan strike in dan chi without any downward wristing force involved, but rather a elbow force (jum sau rather than jut) that allows you to deflect the strike while continuing forward as if you are still striking, would that not be more a more effective way to deal with something like that? It translates directly to application and doesn't teach us to chase hands by first going away from center with a block then back to attacking him. Go visit Kevin G, I'm sure he can show you what I mean.

I think any system that teaches rounder attacks like hooks and such has to be closer in as well, since the curved attacking line decreases the distance, like more inside boxing stuff. I agree that boxing jab is a longer range punch, since the person is essentially sideways for a moment when striking with it, but what they gain in distance & range they lose in the ability to use both hands/whole body attacking abilities. There's always a trade off. I too would use a jab if I were to be caught on the outside, since WC structure is of no use there, economy of motion again.

I see alot of if he does this I do that in your approach, which for me is a more technique based approach. For me, maybe I'm slow, things are happening to fast for any of that to work at a high % of the time. I'd rather get in there tight, or let him bridge the distance for me (not talking comps here), and try to shut him down and let the tools do what they do naturally without my thoughts interferring with it. Of course nothing is guaranteed, but no training system can do that for you.

James

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have never thought of Wing Chun of anything other than a fighting advantage. When I was young I did chi sao with my brothers, and we did all the drills and sparring. It was not until I actually had a fight outside that I realized something. We train against another WC person, but when we end up fighting someone it will usually be someone that has absolutely no fighting system skills at all. Not to say that they can not fight effectively, as most boys or men your own age and size can usually pummel you pretty good if you are not up on your game. I learned that Chi sao did only one thing from me. When I got up under someone I could hit him with full power, where he could not draw back and swing like he wanted to. I did not have to see his hands and arms to react to them, and he could not see my arms and hands and did not know where they were and could not react to them at all. I found that if you were aggressive and pushed the attack, the average man would be absolutely helpless against you.
I have never considered Wing Chun as something to better myself except to force my will upon others if necessary.
I read all the time about WC guys not being able to fight, but I have known lots of guys that could not fight. Thai fighers, boxers, karate guys, whatever. It is just an individual thing really. I think WC is one of the most dynamic and most effective fighting systems ever devised. But if you are a pus sy it don't matter what you train in.

LCP

[Ali. R]

Anything you study in life should make you a better person that’s the reward from learning: knowledge enlightens you if you truly understand it, it becomes you…

If you like it or not, it can better you.


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

You can train for self-defense but self-defense itself is totally a different thing when applied, this is where some get confused because; they can’t get pass the drills and forms and they become stuck like a deer in the headlights…

Thinking that those one step drills and chi sao will save their butts, because they didn’t find one-self within the system and truly mastered each level, until it was apart of oneself…

If one never truly find oneself in wing chun, one’s self-defense will never recognized the system in which one trains (wildness)…

Most go on for many years without realizing this, and wonder why some wing chun looks different, effective, even more relaxed and subtle…

Search deep within this journey and find your place.

Find oneself first within the system with self-development through ones stance (enlightenment) then ones self-defense will recognized the system in which one trains (wing chun) and that’s the self-defense that can actually defend the weak and not:

Drills, Chi Sao, Lop Sao and Applications



Ali Rahim.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Wing Chun = Classical Mess

Suki

[sihing]

Wing Chun = Classical Mess

Suki

People = classical Mess

Wing Chun is a lifeless thing, and without human activity involved with it, it can do nothing by itself, so the blame has to be on it's instructors & practitioners, that if it is considered to be a mess, depends on your perspective.

James

[t_niehoff]

I don't think people in WC have low level fighting skills because of the lack of cross training. Unless I want to compete, which I personally have no interest in, I don't believe we have to cross train in anything else.


Fighting skills - regardless of your art - come from practicing fighting (sparring). Period. And, your skill level will correspond to the amount of time you spend doing it (how much you practice) and the quality (performance level) of the people you spar with. That's a simple equation.

Now, le';s look at the second part. . .



Who's to say that I can't train like a MT guy in my WC class? And by that I don't mean I am doing MT, but taking their training method, and applying in class.


Two things -- first, it makes no sense to adopt MT training methods into yourWCK training as MT drills, etc. are designed to improve your MT skills, not your WCK skills (you won't get better at WCK practicing BJJ drills).

Second, you need to realize that you aren't trained or skilled in MT (not having trained in it), so you will suck in MT. So, when you do that, even when you try to do its drills, you are incompetent at MT (imagine a MT fighter teaching WCK drills to his students!). Not only that, but the real benefit comesfrom the sparring and you don't develop competence fighting with incompetents.

It's the same with anything, you can't learn how to deal with punches by dealing with someone "pretending" to be a boxer or having low level boxing skill. You can't learn to avoid takedowns dealing with an unskilled guy trying to take you down. You cna't elarn how to deal with someone trying to sub you on the ground by dealing with someone with little to no ground skills. The value of cross training lies in the fact that you are dealing with SKILLED people, people more skilled than you in particular areas, and you learn a lot from it (including that WCK isn't special, that it isn't complete, that it isn't advanced, that it isn't superior, etc.).



IMO WC people have low level fighting skills because 1) they don't understand what WC is, they try to fight or exibit what they do in training in a fight (e.g. pronounced man/wu sau guard, inmobile stances standing there like a tree, trying to use static shapes to defend attacks, trying to use techniques/pre arranged sequences against random attacks, etc..


Our understanding of WCK corresponds to our level of skill, i.e., fighting skill or the ability to apply our WCK. That understanding doesn't come from others, it comes from the work, the process of skill development (the sparring). So, people have low understanding BECAUSE they have low level skill, not theother way round (understanding doesn't precede skill).



2) they don't realize there is a difference between training, which is strict and precise/structured and applicaton which is natural movement and unrestrictive with the hope that the training has influenced positively how you will fight,


Training should be application, your sparring should be the core of your training, just like it is in all functional combative arts.

I think what you are referring to is that many people don't seem to appreciate that the curriculum of WCK, the forms, the classical drills, etc., is not application and doesn't teach you to apply WCK.



3) sparring with other people from other systems, not necessarily with the intent to defeat them, but to experience what it is like to move around with someone unfamiliar and different.


Sparring isn't about defeating your opponent, it is about developing your skill.



I know lots of people that practice WC that have done quite well against other people from Karate, MT, wrestling, etc... They've learned to use the art for themselves, not be a slave to it, which unfortunately is the biggest problem in the WC world today, people are slaves to it, their lineage and teachers.


I hear that too -- even on this forum. Sparring with people from other arts is only useful if they have developed skill at least to the point of being competent (which means, at a minimum, that they could fight and defeat most untrained people their size, strength, etc. in fighting USING their method).

[Wayfaring]

I’m not saying my way is right I’m just saying “self-development” (enlightenment) in every step of the way in your training, will truly bring your fundamentals to life…

Stay Blessed


Ali Rahim.

You know while I am certainly against building delusional viewpoints based upon self development attitudes, I absolutely understand where you're coming from here. In many ways the only reason all of us do any kind of martial arts is to better ourselves. That's my motivation.

Every time I get handled, my skills show up below what I'd like, I get taken down at will, I get lit up like a X mas tree, lose in a comp I've been training for - I have to go look in the mirror and see who I really am and make up my mind to change. It's discouraging, and the amount of hard work needed is overwhelming at first.

In a way real live training and competition is the absolute self development tool.

But I don't think that's where most people are at that don't do those kinds of things. That type of self development comes with going up against better and better competition.

[Wayfaring]

I don't think people in WC have low level fighting skills because of the lack of cross training. Unless I want to compete, which I personally have no interest in, I don't believe we have to cross train in anything else. Who's to say that I can't train like a MT guy in my WC class? And by that I don't mean I am doing MT, but taking their training method, and applying in class.

Yes adapting training methods to your WC that are built for building competitors is a fantastic idea. But just hang on a second and look at your logic. Unless you want to compete? So what you're saying is that if you wanted to train to go up against more skilled opponents you would have to cross train? Well then who exactly, I mean what type of skill of opponent are you training for in WC? The average man bar drunk?

I mean I understand the no interest in competition. I'm not naturally wired competitively - but unless you're in some of those types of situations how do you test yourself?



IMO WC people have low level fighting skills because 1) they don't understand what WC is, they try to fight or exibit what they do in training in a fight (e.g. pronounced man/wu sau guard, inmobile stances standing there like a tree, trying to use static shapes to defend attacks, trying to use techniques/pre arranged sequences against random attacks, etc.. 2) they don't realize there is a difference between training, which is strict and precise/structured and applicaton which is natural movement and unrestrictive with the hope that the training has influenced positively how you will fight, 3) sparring with other people from other systems, not necessarily with the intent to defeat them, but to experience what it is like to move around with someone unfamiliar and different.

Sure all of that is true. On #3, that's a good start, but if you spar in a live environment where they are intending to defeat you eventually you have to do something.



I know lots of people that practice WC that have done quite well against other people from Karate, MT, wrestling, etc... They've learned to use the art for themselves, not be a slave to it, which unfortunately is the biggest problem in the WC world today, people are slaves to it, their lineage and teachers.

James
Absolutely using the art for yourself instead of being a slave to it is optimal. Building fundamentals that are tested against highly skilled opponents and advancing.

[Ali. R]

Wing Chun = Classical Mess

Suki


I don’t understand this, because your signature expands even more on the point that I’m bringing out. By the way you’re posting you must have a different agenda here on this thread…

Or maybe you made a mistake and put this post on the wrong thread because it don’t follow the debate, and I’m almost sure you’re not being disrespectful because your signature backs up my statements 100%.

Or maybe subconsciously you’re a hypocrite (signature) or maybe that’s the best way you can make your point, who know what’s going on…

But you never said one thing remotely neutral or respectful any timed you quoted me (for years).
And I will never disrespectful you because I have no problem with you…

Let the debate move on…


Ali Rahim.

[goju]

WC= classical mess? thats odd soemone would use a term coined by bruce lee to describe a art bruce lee used heavily in his jkd

[Ali. R]

Self-development (enlightenment)

Self-defense (physical product of enlightenment)

If one don’t know oneself then how can one help others (the weak) respectfully.

While dealing with society (people) fairly as a whole


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Paraphrasing Ip Man- for self- development, for self- defense, for defending the weak and helping society.

Without self-development this paraphrase ending will be useless for society.


Ali Rahim.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Goju,

Sure Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun and later penned it a classical mess. Well spotted. The mess is evident from this forum. Do you disagree with the statement?

Ali,

No agenda's. I haven't been reading your posts to be honest so try not to be offended. Alternatively, if you choose to be offended, so be it.

Just a few points, - I see little to no use of doing drills like Dan Chi Sao as it lacks the coordination needed to be developed throughout the body by focusing just on one arm and transitioning from single arm to double sticking becomes harder than a person who moves straight to double, IME.

What is Wing Chun for? Its the main vehicle I use to overcome my fear of being dominated (in street, in training etc etc)
Suki

[goju]

Goju,

Sure Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun and later penned it a classical mess. Well spotted. The mess is evident from this forum. Do you disagree with the statement?

Ali,

No agenda's. I haven't been reading your posts to be honest so try not to be offended. Alternatively, if you choose to be offended, so be it.

Just a few points, - I see little to no use of doing drills like Dan Chi Sao as it lacks the coordination needed to be developed throughout the body by focusing just on one arm and transitioning from single arm to double sticking becomes harder than a person who moves straight to double, IME.

What is Wing Chun for? Its the main vehicle I use to overcome my fear of being dominated (in street, in training etc etc)
Suki
actually bruce kept a ton of it in his jkd the foot work, the trapping, the wooden dummy pracitce etcetc

[Vajramusti]

No point in "debating" with folks whose non wing chun positions repeat the same old same old critiques.
Wu wei wu- repeats his Jesse Glover based POV and like any one else he is entitled to it.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

, Sure Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun and later penned it a classical mess. Well spotted. The mess is evident from this forum. Do you disagree with the statement?

Then that makes Bruce Lee a hypocrite, now I can see why you made him your head figure.


No agenda's. I haven't been reading your posts to be honest

If you had read my post you would have seen that we are in agreement. (Your signature) Why quote me if you hadn’t read it, hum,,,, could it be (An agenda)?.


So try not to be offended. Alternatively, if you choose to be offended, so be it.

What would make you think I’m offended unless that was your agenda, when I give no indication of being so.


What is Wing Chun for? Its the main vehicle I use to overcome my fear of being dominated (in street, in training etc etc)
Suki

One has to find oneself to fight fear which is self-development (enlightenment) right?

WTF!


Ali Rahim.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Joy,

I disagree. I think an analysis of 'non-Wing Chun' positions is probably the most important aspect of training in Wing Chun.

There are schools who only train within the confines of the their WC POV. They train against other WC students, doing drills, forms etc etc. I find this regressive and limiting.

Alternatively, (and this tends to be individual choice based), there are those who study Wing Chun but also research alternative methods, comparing and contrasting if you will. Its usually such individuals who reach a point of comfort engaging with non-Wing Chun fighters (and arguably comfort with their WC skill).

Your posts on various martial arts as well as western boxing is suggestive that you 'think' out of the box, but your endorsement of Wing Chun as a full and complete method betrays this, IMO.

Suki

[Wu Wei Wu]

Ali,

I'm not sure I understand you, but don't worry too much about that, its partly intentional.

Suki

[Ultimatewingchun]

i personally find that my manipulation of range, striking in short range including power, and control of my opponent on the inside has vastly increased due to my wc training. Just sensitivity training in a bridge scenario is worthwhile. My understanding of true structure including body part alignment is a lot better, facing, and understanding of space and the occupation of it. Also, it has increased my ability in the counterpunching strategy.

It has not taught me long range striking or footwork, clinch fighting including against an obstacle like a cage or wall, or any workable ground skills at all. Those have had to be cross-trained.


***Excellent post.

[Ali. R]

Ali,

I'm not sure I understand you, but don't worry too much about that, its partly intentional.

Suki

That’s understandable because we’re all in need for a little more room for knowledge (enlightenment), sometimes it can de hard, because some can only handle very little information at a time…


Wing Chun = Classical Mess

Hummmm, or could it be turrets?


I'm not sure I understand you.

Hummmm, or could be you’re just not telling the truth?



Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

Before we get too deeply into this who's d!ck is bigger type of posting, how about we get back on topic.

Lots of people have been saying the samethings, WC is for self defence, personal safety, enlightenment and the such, but this still isn't answering the question, regarding specifics. How does WC add value to combat effectiveness? What tools does it allow us to use that gives us an advantage in combat? I've already given two examples, how about some others from all the experts here on the forum. Kev G gives tons of examples in his posts, he explains why we do what we do and how it makes us more effective in combat application.

T,
I still don't get how one can learn something from just application. One cannot learn how to play tennis from just playing, there are many hours spent on the practice court, training specific things (court placement, ball placement & depth, approach shots and the various setups from there, etc..). The ability to put all of this together in a match, is more about the mental aspect of the game than the physical (even though confidence is gained in practice, this I agree upon). The guys in MMA that can do stuff in practice but not in the fight, for me that is a mental thing, not a physical thing, unless of course the are so outclassed (like Silva vs Griffin), that nothing works for you.

It is also a given that somethings will not work against some opponents if they are that much better than you. Trying to maintain a contact fighting strategy against a guy like Pacquiao would be near impossible for most all of us, he's just too dammed good at what he does. But the concept will work against some, especially if it is in a situation that is not planned like a street encounter. To say you don't know what you are doing because it works only against scrubs and not against skilled guys, well that is the case with all of us here, the better skilled the guy you face, the harder it is to defeat him, that is more a matter of him being that much better than us, not really about what system we practice IMO.

James

[Vajramusti]

"I disagree. I think an analysis of 'non-Wing Chun' positions is probably the most important aspect of training in Wing Chun. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you can disagree. No problem. And of course it's a good idea for any serious martial artist to know what other folks are doing.
But i see no point in arguing with you about wing chun...your comments on dan chi sao speaks much about your level of understanding wing chun.

One can make straw man arguments by distorting aspects of a style and pointing to bad examples of any art.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

Before we get too deeply into this who's d!ck is bigger type of posting, how about we get back on topic.

James

The truth will never show itself as a lie.

I never went off topic and he admitted he was trying his best, and he put it in his own words that he was being sincere, and I’m sure everyone believed him; I was just full of questions (no insults) unlike your opening statement (self-gratification/how cool am I), and you talk of peace???

That’s ironic, you’re trying to calm down a situation by heating it back up with such a statement when it never was a situation, and I guess you prove to everyone that you can be the biggest one….

Because the debate was about the truth and you made it into something else, that’s perpetrating a fraud.

I would disregard anything you say about peace (show it, don’t demand it)…

We all have a lot to learn, and we should all work on self-development (enlightenment) and this kind of stuff wouldn’t happen.

I think you should just stay with the subject.



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

How does WC add value to combat effectiveness?
or
What tools does it allow us to use that gives us an advantage in combat

James


Then you’re using the wrong title. (Rather then: what is Wing Chun for)

Those should have been the titles and it would have been a totally different conversation for me, while 'Yip Man' made it clear on what wing chun is for, I only stayed with the title you were always off subject (on your own thread)…


Ali Rahim.

[anerlich]

IMO dan chi is necessary to develop both sides equally, which I have been taught as a fundamental tenet of the art.

If you stick with double arm only (no pun intended) you may end up being "one sided", favoring certain techniques or combinations one one or both sides in the regular configurations.

We could argue about whether this sort of ambidextrousness is necessary or the best way to train for whatever our purposes are (most boxers seem to manage quite well as one sided fighters, for example), but ambidextrousness has always been presented as a goal of WC to me.

IMO TWC's crossarm chi sao develops facing when the opponent is on your outside, where IMO dan chi and 2 arm are more about inside facing and control. This is my experience, I expect other lineages have their own drills to develop similar or different skills or attributes.

I believe the practice of a martial art is neither sufficient nor the best way to become a better human being, however that might be defined.

The notion of being lectured at length on how to conduct my life by practitioner of any martial art, including my own instructors and Yip Man (who by many accounts was a fine Wing Chun practitioner but hardly a saint or Bhodisattva with a number of human foibles, prejudices, and weaknesses) is IMO ridiculous and absurd. The counterexamples to such ideas are legion.

If you want to seek "enlightenment" (definition?), find a path with a better track record.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Joy,

The issue isn't understanding, but more rather what the criteria for determining Wing Chun skill is, and should be. When one does a fighting art, then the criteria for determining skill should be fighting, should it not?

I have no problem with those who remain in the realm of theory in order to demonstrate understanding. I am suprised however, that they choose a combative art for this rather than another choice of medium, perhaps something a bit more recreational; like gardening. That said, its not uncommon for some of our senior members of the forum to train their Wing Chun with the same delicate hands that they would use to tend to a flower.

Suki

[Vajramusti]

"The notion of being lectured at length on how to conduct my life by practitioner of any martial art, including my own instructors and Yip Man (who by many accounts was a fine Wing Chun practitioner but hardly a saint or Bhodisattva with a number of human foibles, prejudices, and weaknesses) is IMO ridiculous and absurd. The counterexamples to such ideas are legion.

If you want to seek "enlightenment" (definition?), find a path with a better track record."(Anerlich)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True on comments on dan chi sao.Being balanced on both sides with feet and hands is assisted by wing chun.In many things we tend to develop only one side.

Ip Man was great model for wing chun. I never said or implied that he was a model for "enlightenment".But he was a great si jo for wing chun kung fu. In good hands the art continues to and should/could continue to develop. For it to develop, knowing good examples from the past can help in kung fu development. Generally true in serious subjects.

Wing chun self development IMO can assist in heightening awareness-an empirical phenomenon...
including knowing what one's hand and feet are doing in different simulated as well as real contexts.

Enlightenment is a different and personal matter. No lecturing intended on that....though finding a path to that can be an important and very human quest.(Joy C.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"The issue isn't understanding, but more rather what the criteria for determining Wing Chun skill is, and should be. When one does a fighting art, then the criteria for determining skill should be fighting, should it not?"(Wu wei wu)

Wing chun is not the only way to fight. But for some with proper instruction and regular practice and development and actual experience it's a great way. I have respect for those who have found alternative ways.(Joy Chaudhuri)

I have no problem with those who remain in the realm of theory in order to demonstrate understanding.(Wuweiwu).

Different meanings to the term theory.Good theories are proven empirically.On an internet forum by necessity we use words. (Joy Chaudhuri)

I am suprised however, that they choose a combative art for this rather than another choice of medium, perhaps something a bit more recreational; like gardening. That said, its not uncommon for some of our senior members of the forum to train their Wing Chun with the same delicate hands that they would use to tend to a flower.(Wuwei wu)

Cute but irrelevant.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

T,
I still don't get how one can learn something from just application. One cannot learn how to play tennis from just playing, there are many hours spent on the practice court, training specific things (court placement, ball placement & depth, approach shots and the various setups from there, etc..). The ability to put all of this together in a match, is more about the mental aspect of the game than the physical (even though confidence is gained in practice, this I agree upon). The guys in MMA that can do stuff in practice but not in the fight, for me that is a mental thing, not a physical thing, unless of course the are so outclassed (like Silva vs Griffin), that nothing works for you.


Since you brought up tennis, let's use that example -- you appreciate that the goal of tennis training is to be able to PLAY THE GAME, right? And as such, we learn and practice various drills, right? With me so far? OK, who designs these drills? People who are already really good tennis players. People who can apply their tennis skills. They are able to pick those things to train since they know WHAT YOU WILL NEED IN THE GAME. Do you go to people who can't play tennis well to teach you how to play well?

You see, this is the problem in WCK --you've got people who can't play the game trying to teach others how they should play the game, providing strategies, drills, etc. In my view, this is theblind leading the blind.

This is disguised by the TCMA-style of teaching, where the curriculum is separate from application (most people believe that if you know the forms, drills,kuit, etc. you must know how to use it).

The basis for everything in learning and training in tennis is application (playing the game).

You can look at the different martial arts as different ways of playing tennis. So, let's say you can't find a good tenniis coach but still want to develop into a good serve-and-volley (WCK) player. What should you do? Look to nonplayers or poor players for how to do it (some who have written books on tennis application?)? Or, just get out on the court and play with good tennis players, trying to make your serve-and-volley style work? From doing that, see where you are lacking and then devise your own drills to work on those areas? Play some more, all the while letting application (the game) be your sifu (learning from playing)?

When I talk about being able to do things in fighting as you train to do them, I don't mean that you'll always be able to pull them off. In tennis, you miss, you hit the ball poorly, etc. But the players are being taught things (skills, techniaues, strategies, etc.) that have proved to consistently work in tennis, they are training to play based on what has proved to work, etc.



It is also a given that somethings will not work against some opponents if they are that much better than you. Trying to maintain a contact fighting strategy against a guy like Pacquiao would be near impossible for most all of us, he's just too dammed good at what he does. But the concept will work against some, especially if it is in a situation that is not planned like a street encounter. To say you don't know what you are doing because it works only against scrubs and not against skilled guys, well that is the case with all of us here, the better skilled the guy you face, the harder it is to defeat him, that is more a matter of him being that much better than us, not really about what system we practice IMO.

James

You don't learn or develop good solid trennis skills playing with very poor players. That's true in any sport or any athletic endeavor. It is only by training/playing with skilled people that we can develop to any significant degree. Good players will show you where you are weak, they'll show you what is junk (stuff that only works against poor players), etc. Will better players beat you? Sure. But weare talking about how to develop good, solid skills, not become invincible (a fantasy).

[Ali. R]

Wing chum is a path and all martial arts are based on enlightenment every last one…

Just like anything one dose, should be…

As Yip Man said, self-development first, ok sense you all want to take that (enlightenment) out of it, that’s fine, we’ll do that, no self-development like Yip said…

And a person with self-development is I person without worth and a person without worth is a person without understanding…

And a person without understanding is ignorant and a person who choose to stay that way, is a person with no depth or substance useless for society… (wild man)

So what Yip Man had his short coming, but he knew what he was saying, that’s why self-development was first but the western mind always deviate from this and that’s why America has the worst wing chun ever.

No self-worth in within the system (sad)…



Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Wing chum is a path and all martial arts are based on enlightenment every last one…

Just like anything one dose, should be…

As Yip Man said, self-development first, ok sense you all want to take that (enlightenment) out of it, that’s fine, we’ll do that, no self-development like Yip said…

And a person with self-development is I person without worth and a person without worth is a person without understanding…

And a person without understanding is ignorant and a person who choose to stay that way, is a person with no depth or substance useless for society… (wild man)

So what Yip Man had his short coming, but he knew what he was saying, that’s why self-development was first but the western mind always deviate from this and that’s why America has the worst wing chun ever.

No self-worth in within the system (sad)…



Ali Rahim.

If you look at the evidence, you can clearly see that WCK doesn't lead to "enlightenment" (which is a fantasy) -- even your beloved Yip Man was a drug (opium) addict who cheated on his wife (having a child with someone who wasn'this wife), and had all kinds of character flaws (he was a racist too). People can be really great at a sport or at a martial art and be a complete scoundrel. You see it in WCK, in boxing, in BJJ, in MMA,etc. You see it in the NBA, the NFL, in every sport.

It's great you are concerned with self-develoment, but there is no correspondence between self-develoment, being a better person, knowing yourself, etc. and performance (skill).

I don't know about other people, but when I go to the gym, I go to train and not to get life lessons from a life coach.

Quite frankly, I think most people interested in self-development are mainly simply self-absorbed. If someone really wants to grow as a person, to find themselves, etc. then go volunteer at an AIDS hospice, become a Big Brother, etc. In other words, focus on helping other people instead of yourself.

[Ali. R]

It's great you are concerned with self-develoment, but there is no correspondence between self-develoment, being a better person, knowing yourself, etc. and performance (skill).


It's great you are concerned with self-development, but there is no correspondence between self-development, being a better person, knowing yourself, etc. and performance (skill).

Everyone please read carefully, this is a classic oxymoron …

Enough said,



Ali Rahim.

[dnovice]

That said I tend to think that most people should go from "long hand to short hand" and that most that I have seen that have gone directly to short hand tend to be "missing something" that takes longer to develop.
My 2 cents.

To add to this, I'd go further and say people should use wing chun as a last result.... If your opponent gets through to your inner gate... Or if you use it from the get go it should be instant and completely vicious... finish your opponent fast.

[t_niehoff]

It's great you are concerned with self-development, but there is no correspondence between self-development, being a better person, knowing yourself, etc. and performance (skill).

Everyone please read carefully, this is a classic oxymoron …

Enough said,



Ali Rahim.

Skill (your ability to obtain a desired result with max certainty and min time/effort) comes from practice, from repeatedly doing it. How do we become good drivers? By driving the car a lot. Is learning to drive a car or becoming better at driving the car in any way related to your "self-develoment"? Or, are you simply defining self-development as car-driving-skill development? ;)

[Ali. R]

When one applies learned skills well, it’s a demonstration of self-development and one's self-development will better one's performance and usage of skills…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

When one applies learned skills well, it’s a demonstration of self-development and one's self-development will better one's performance and usage of skills…


Ali Rahim.

When someone applies a learned skill well, all they are "demonstrating" is applying a learned skill well. That's all. Why try to make more of it?

BTW, the above quote is noting more than circular reasoning (skill demonstrates self-development, self-development demonstrates skill).

[Ali. R]

You’re saying there is no self-development at all in the final outcome of one’s endeavors (learning skills)

No matter how well one display their understanding from the first time they walked into the system of wing chun?

Oh, now I understand, it’s very interesting…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

You’re saying there is no self-development at all in the final outcome of one’s endeavors (learning skills)

No matter how well one display their understanding from the first time they walked into the system of wing chun?

Oh, now I understand, it’s very interesting…


Ali Rahim.

I'm asking why you even use the term "self-development"? It's misleading, particularly when you use it (as you did) along with "enlightenment" since it has other connotations. Nor does it make sense to suggest (as you are now) that what you really mean by self-develoment is skill development. If that's the case, then just call it skill development.

Why not just focus on developing fighting (WCK) skill and increasing fighting performance -- like all athletes do? Sure, when you develop skill and increase your performance, you incease THAT aspect of your "self" (that aspect has been developed), but that's it.

If I go to a golf pro to become a better golfer or a tennis pro to become a better tennis player, I don't want talk of "self-development" -- I want them to help me develop greater skill.

[Ali. R]

I understand what you’re saying, and if one really read my posting, then one will see that I’m very consistence, in showing the difference.


I'm asking why you even use the term "self-development"? It's misleading, particularly when you use it (as you did) along with "enlightenment" since it has other connotations. Nor does it make sense to suggest (as you are now) that what you really mean by self-develoment is skill development

There is a connection

Self-development is a path to enlightenment, which is the ending to a beginning (true understanding), the final product of one’s endeavors or self-development (enlightenment).


Ali Rahim.

[anerlich]

Consider surfing as an analogy -- how could someone work on the attribute/structure/body mechanics of surfing without regard to actually surfing? It would make no sense. And -- this is critical -- it is only by and through actually surfing that you develop those elements.

How are the waves in St Louis these days?

I surfed extensively in my teens, twenties and thirties, and managed to log some tube time during the 2009/10 holiday break around Ulladulla, AUS.

The BJJ school I train at is at Manly, second only in fame among Sydney beaches to Bondi. One of the black belts and probably 30% of the students surf several times a week. One of my training buds runs the Manly surf school, as well as going on regular trips to surf huge waves. I'm afraid to say, Terence, that they actually start with "dry land surfing" to work on proper technique for standing up and the like. Guys also train with Indo boards, Swiss Balls and the like, as well as the obvious things like skateboarding.

You probably should stick to tennis for your analogies, since you have extensive experience with that.

[sihing]

Since you brought up tennis, let's use that example -- you appreciate that the goal of tennis training is to be able to PLAY THE GAME, right? And as such, we learn and practice various drills, right? With me so far? OK, who designs these drills? People who are already really good tennis players. People who can apply their tennis skills. They are able to pick those things to train since they know WHAT YOU WILL NEED IN THE GAME. Do you go to people who can't play tennis well to teach you how to play well?

Of course you have to learn from someone that knows what they are doing. But it is not always that black and white. I taught tennis as well, but the people that I taught did not play the game like I did, nor did they have the ability. My dedication to the game was much more intensive. I didn't like to practice, I liked to play, but when I did get a coach the drills he had me go thru did help with my consistency, with overall helped me win more.

You see, this is the problem in WCK --you've got people who can't play the game trying to teach others how they should play the game, providing strategies, drills, etc. In my view, this is theblind leading the blind.

It is true that there are alot of WC teachers out there with little experience fighting, but there is allot of skill level difference between the vast majority of WC instructors. Your saying it's black(no skill) or white(has skill). Again application is dependent on two factors, your skills and the other guys skills, it's an equation each of us has to solve. I also believe that no one can teach you to fight, you have to learn that yourself. What they can teach you is a training method, this way or that way to strike, grapple, kick, wrestle or whatever. You take these skills and apply them in sparring and comps (to whatever level you choose as a individual) and learn to fight from that. You could have learn from Ali himself how to box, everything he knew, but that doesn't mean you have his fighting skills.

This is disguised by the TCMA-style of teaching, where the curriculum is separate from application (most people believe that if you know the forms, drills,kuit, etc. you must know how to use it).
The basis for everything in learning and training in tennis is application (playing the game).
Yes and No. It is a mix of proper training, and playing that makes someone a good tennis player, combined with what there intention is in the sport. If all I want is to get the ball over the net consistently, then that is easy. If my intent is to beat the club pro that is a harder goal to achieve, as is getting a state/provincial or national ranking, each level is harder to achieve, and that is based on your goals with the sport. Same with Martial Arts, each of us has different intent. If I want to be a fighter, I would cross train and learn from a variety proven coaches/fighter, and go from there, but that still doesn't guarantee a winning record for me, as I still have to apply the things I am learning, which is totally up to me and is a combination of fighting practice and training, which are two seperate things in my book.

You can look at the different martial arts as different ways of playing tennis. So, let's say you can't find a good tenniis coach but still want to develop into a good serve-and-volley (WCK) player. What should you do? Look to nonplayers or poor players for how to do it (some who have written books on tennis application?)? Or, just get out on the court and play with good tennis players, trying to make your serve-and-volley style work? From doing that, see where you are lacking and then devise your own drills to work on those areas? Play some more, all the while letting application (the game) be your sifu (learning from playing)?
This is a slow process, you are going thru your own trial and error, but it is possible for sure. I agree, you have to be learning from people that have experience, plus from your own experience. Back when I was playing competative tennis, I learned as well from watching the best guys of that era (Borg, Connors, McEnroe, Lendl, etc..), so it is possible to learn from other non physical sources IMO. I think you are in a way trying to give example that prove you points. For me there are no good WC instructors around the area I live, so I travel to LA to train with people that I think can give me the best material. Again this all depends on your intentions with your training.


When I talk about being able to do things in fighting as you train to do them, I don't mean that you'll always be able to pull them off. In tennis, you miss, you hit the ball poorly, etc. But the players are being taught things (skills, techniaues, strategies, etc.) that have proved to consistently work in tennis, they are training to play based on what has proved to work, etc.

Okay I think we are getting somewhere. For me I know my WC reflexes are second nature, as I've had plenty of experiences to prove that, but like you said being able to pull them off successfully/consistently in a fight , has more to do with my abilities compared to my opponents abilities, if his suck I will succeed, and visa versa. Look at it this way getting back to our tennis e.g. Connors and Borg hit the ball very differently, with different effects on the ball, and both were successful players. You can say the same for a MT striker and a WC striker, both hit people in the head with their hands and feet, but how they do that is different. What WC need is more intensity in the training methodology, and more chance for the practitioner to apply their training in a realistic fashion, meaning from a non contact position. Chi sau is great, but it is not necessarily realistic in application, you learn skill sets from it, but then you need to know the method of applying it. Lots of instructors don't know how to do that.


You don't learn or develop good solid trennis skills playing with very poor players. That's true in any sport or any athletic endeavor. It is only by training/playing with skilled people that we can develop to any significant degree. Good players will show you where you are weak, they'll show you what is junk (stuff that only works against poor players), etc. Will better players beat you? Sure. But weare talking about how to develop good, solid skills, not become invincible (a fantasy).

I agree, you become a better player by playing better players. But again, tennis and fighting are two different animals. I'm not trying to control and disable another person trying to do the same to me on a tennis court, rather I am only manipulating a small tennis ball to go where I want it to go on a court. A better fighter would show me what works for him, their own style persay. Every fighter can show you good things, but I'm more interested in how WC deals with those things instead of having to go outside of the system. It's realively easy now to research how the top fighters of today fight and train, just search them on youtube. It think Anderson Silva is a great fighter, and for sure he could show me very effective things related to fighting, but I'm not interested in that or how he does what he does. How does WC training effect our combat effectiveness. What does tan sau or fok sau concept do for us as fighters or people interested in not getting hit by a punch. To say there are no WC instructors out there that can answer that question is ridiculous, I've met quite a few of them already. They may not be able to defeat a pro MMA fighter, but that is besides the point, none of us here can do that either including yourself.



Still wish someone would show me how to use the multi quote function:)

James

[Wayfaring]

The BJJ school I train at is at Manly, second only in fame among Sydney beaches to Bondi. One of the black belts and probably 30% of the students surf several times a week. One of my training buds runs the Manly surf school, as well as going on regular trips to surf huge waves. I'm afraid to say, Terence, that they actually start with "dry land surfing" to work on proper technique for standing up and the like. Guys also train with Indo boards, Swiss Balls and the like, as well as the obvious things like skateboarding.

the only point anerlich is making to me is that he is one lucky mofo!!!

[t_niehoff]

How are the waves in St Louis these days?

I surfed extensively in my teens, twenties and thirties, and managed to log some tube time during the 2009/10 holiday break around Ulladulla, AUS.

The BJJ school I train at is at Manly, second only in fame among Sydney beaches to Bondi. One of the black belts and probably 30% of the students surf several times a week. One of my training buds runs the Manly surf school, as well as going on regular trips to surf huge waves. I'm afraid to say, Terence, that they actually start with "dry land surfing" to work on proper technique for standing up and the like. Guys also train with Indo boards, Swiss Balls and the like, as well as the obvious things like skateboarding.

You probably should stick to tennis for your analogies, since you have extensive experience with that.

I know they start of on land, showing you a few things (like standing up, how to stand on the board, etc.) but then move into the water. I actually mentioned that in one of my earlier posts. My point is that this process of developing open psycho-motor(athletic) skills is the same across the board (for all open skill actitivites). When we appreciate this process or mechanism by which we learn and develop open skills, our next step will be to look at how our traditional training fits or doesn't fit into that process.

[t_niehoff]

Of course you have to learn from someone that knows what they are doing. But it is not always that black and white.

How was a coach able to help you with your game? He was able to because he had good, solid fundamental skills. Skills are application (actually being able to do some task).



It is true that there are alot of WC teachers out there with little experience fighting, but there is allot of skill level difference between the vast majority of WC instructors. Your saying it's black(no skill) or white(has skill).


No, I'm not. There are obviously skill levels (consider BJJ's belt levels, for instance). But my point is that when we talk about skill, we should be referring to ability to apply their WCK, to fight with it. Your skill level is your ability to use your WCK.

Where does skill in being able to apply your WCK come from? From fighting with your WCK. So, if you don't or rarely fight/spar, how skillful can you (the generic) be? If you don't spar with good fighters, how skillful can you be?

And since our understanding comes from our skill (our understanding corresponds to our skill level), if we have poor skill then it follows we have poor understanding.



Again application is dependent on two factors, your skills and the other guys skills, it's an equation each of us has to solve. I also believe that no one can teach you to fight, you have to learn that yourself. What they can teach you is a training method, this way or that way to strike, grapple, kick, wrestle or whatever.


Yes, but ask yourself how can we know that what they are teaching is sound? This goes back to my point about "If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail."



You take these skills and apply them in sparring and comps (to whatever level you choose as a individual) and learn to fight from that. You could have learn from Ali himself how to box, everything he knew, but that doesn't mean you have his fighting skills.


You just pointed out something significant about the role of a teacher -- he can't teach you application. You learn application (fighting) by fighting (sparring). You learn application from your sparring partners. This is why the Gracies say you are only as good as your sparring partners.



Same with Martial Arts, each of us has different intent. If I want to be a fighter, I would cross train and learn from a variety proven coaches/fighter, and go from there, but that still doesn't guarantee a winning record for me, as I still have to apply the things I am learning, which is totally up to me and is a combination of fighting practice and training, which are two seperate things in my book.


If you don't come to WCK or any martial art with the idea that you are training to be a fighter, then you are wasting your time.

Of course training to do something is different than actually doing it. However, a significant part (the core) of training to do something IS actually doing it, is practicing doing it. The training to do something may involve more than only practicing doing it. But, no matter what else you do, you can only learn and develop the ability to do whatever it is by actually practicing doing it.

And to know HOW to train to do something REQUIRES we first know what we are training to do (otherwise I could be training to do X and need to do Y). This goes back to "If you're not teaching and practicing things that you see working consistently in sparring/fighting, then you are teaching people to fail."



This is a slow process, you are going thru your own trial and error, but it is possible for sure.


It's not simply random trial-and-error, it is the process of working out what works for you. And, while it may be a slow process, it is the only process that works. You learn to play the game by playing the game.



I agree, you become a better player by playing better players. But again, tennis and fighting are two different animals.


Yes, but the process or mechanism by which we humans learn and develop open skills is the same regardless whether it is tennis or fighting or riding a bike. That is one of the most critical things to appreciate about training.



I'm not trying to control and disable another person trying to do the same to me on a tennis court, rather I am only manipulating a small tennis ball to go where I want it to go on a court. A better fighter would show me what works for him, their own style persay. Every fighter can show you good things, but I'm more interested in how WC deals with those things instead of having to go outside of the system.


WCK isn't a closed system (with fixed things you can do), it is an approach to fighting. It provides us a method (a fighting strategy) and various skills for carrying out that strategy. We develop our skills by fighting and trying to use our approach and skills. To do that, we need to spar with good fighters, since only they can show us when what we are doing is poor, unsound, etc. For example, by sparring with good MMA people or wrestlers, you learn when you are open to takedowns, how to modify what you are doing to deal with them, etc. It's not about "staying within the system" (that makes you a slave to the system),it's about developing and honing your skills.



It's realively easy now to research how the top fighters of today fight and train, just search them on youtube. It think Anderson Silva is a great fighter, and for sure he could show me very effective things related to fighting, but I'm not interested in that or how he does what he does. How does WC training effect our combat effectiveness. What does tan sau or fok sau concept do for us as fighters or people interested in not getting hit by a punch. To say there are no WC instructors out there that can answer that question is ridiculous, I've met quite a few of them already. They may not be able to defeat a pro MMA fighter, but that is besides the point, none of us here can do that either including yourself.


Consider that we are all practitioners of some traditional form of japanese jiujitsu instead of WCK, OK? We know from abundant evidence that traditional JJJ doesn't produce highly skilled grapplers. Yet, it has masters and grandmasters. It has stories about great fighters in the past. So why isn't it producing good people? The answer is in how they train. Results (skill development) come from how you train. Kano took traditional JJJ and adopted the modern, western sport-model of training to create judo, and his guys defeated all the old-timers. Both judo and traditional JJJ share the same technical elements,yet one produces world-class level grapplers and fighters, the other produces crap.

WCK is like traditional JJJ -- the elements are there, but how these things are trained is extremely poor. The curriculum of WCK (the forms, classical drills, etc.) doesn't develop skill (the ability to use your WCK). The answer is for us to do what Kano did, change how we teach and train WCK.

With that comes an appreciation that whether I can do it or your teacher can do it is irrelevent -- your boxing teacher can't teach you to box. Only your sparring partners can teach you to box.

When you change the way you train to the more modern functional training method, it changes how you look at things, it changes the things you do and the way you do them, it changes everything.

[Ali. R]

What happen when you taste your own blood without self-development?

Most of these guys never had a bloody nose, now imagine what would happen if one gets a cut over the eye, they would freak out and run home (hell with self-defense), because they never knew themselves and their self-defense never knew them as well…

It’s easy to talk applications but doing them well (for real) is a different story.


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

What happen when you taste your own blood without self-development?

Most of these guys never had a bloody nose, now imagine what would happen if one gets a cut over the eye, they would freak out and run home (hell with self-defense), because they never knew themselves and their self-defense never knew them as well…

It’s easy to talk applications but doing them well (for real) is a different story.

Ali Rahim.

Application is fighting, it is"for real". When you practice application you get hit, you get taken down, etc. When you practice application you are fighting, and injuries come with the game (though you try, of course, to minimize these with protective gear).

[Ali. R]

Sorry, I won’t go there, that all good, but this is where truly counts.

What happen when you taste your own blood without self-development?
Most of these guys never had a bloody nose, now imagine what would happen if one gets a cut over the eye, they would freak out and run home (hell with self-defense), because they never knew themselves and their self-defense never knew them as well…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Sorry, I won’t go there, that all good, but this is where truly counts.

What happen when you taste your own blood without self-development?
Most of these guys never had a bloody nose, now imagine what would happen if one gets a cut over the eye, they would freak out and run home (hell with self-defense), because they never knew themselves and their self-defense never knew them as well…


Ali Rahim.

You don't seem to understand -- if you are fighting as part of your training, you will get cuts, black eyes, and other injuries (over the years I've had broken bones, a joint dislocation, a detached retina, black eyes, cuts requiring stitches, sprains, etc.). And I'm not unique. It comes with PLAYING THE GAME -- and getting older.

When I first began rolling (BJJ) I experienced something I hadn't expected -- a sort of 'panic" or claustraphobia when my opponents would get me in certain positions and dump their weight on me. For example, when your opponent uses a double underhook guard pass and stacks you (so thatyou are on your back, your knees are in your face, and he is lying on top of you -- and you find it difficult to breathe). I found that my feelings weren't uncommon. But, you get over it-- or more precisely, used to it. That comes with familiarity. You don't get it through meditation or some otehr "self-development" -- you get used to it. Sort of like when you climb-- you get over your fear of heights BY climbing. What happens when you put someone on a cliff or in a stacked position in grappling when they aren't used to it, aren't familiar with it?

[Ali. R]

It comes with PLAYING THE GAME -- and getting older.


When you play a game you never go as deep mentally (life and death).

The mentality for the game can be very shallow because one is usually the champion less then 4 years of training in anything all together (MMA) nothing wrong with that, it’s the game (you don’t die)…

Anyone can take a beating and that’s usually both men in the end, because they wanted to play the game (both fighter) as soon as possible, so they try to fine themselves through each beating they take…

Rather then training to fight out of the half-guard for one year before going to the full guard for one year, then training one submission for one year before going to the next (I recommend this for those who train for real life not sports or the game) my students train on avenge three to four years in SLT…

Make that full and half guard, side mount or submissions scream your name by making each level apart of you, by not going for the quick fix and you will clearly dominate your situation from true understanding while training for a life time of development, self-development (enlightenment).

For the one’s who does ** this for 15 to 20 years and spar in between will always have the upper hand, no matter what system they train.

But if ones basic ideal of fundamentals lacks, meaning the first thing you need to know, you will never gain self-development (enlightenment).

And you wont have to get your but kicked as much for self-development or enlightenment, and will be able to stay on top of the game…



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

If one do this for 6 to 8 years before going fighting pro he will be outstanding, then his journey would'nt be that far away.


Ali Rahim.

[anerlich]

You don't seem to understand -- if you are fighting as part of your training, you will get cuts, black eyes, and other injuries (over the years I've had broken bones, a joint dislocation, a detached retina, black eyes, cuts requiring stitches, sprains, etc.). And I'm not unique. It comes with PLAYING THE GAME -- and getting older.


Good post for a non-surfer, T. ;)


the only point anerlich is making to me is that he is one lucky mofo!!!

I guess I am :cool:


Most of these guys never had a bloody nose, now imagine what would happen if one gets a cut over the eye, they would freak out and run home (hell with self-defense), because they never knew themselves and their self-defense never knew them as well…


If you are concerned about self development, examine where the chip on your shoulder and this need to denigrate those disagreeing with you comes from. Most of us have copped our lumps, even if we don't have to put on your self-proclaimed-bada$$ demeanor.

[Ali. R]

I choose to be better then no one, but only no myself

I'm no bad ass and never said I was, why go there we're just talking that's all, why fight each other...

For some reson this always happens,::(


Ali Rahim

[Ali. R]

I will not get mentally primitive with anyone…

I’ll be back next month.



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Thank you for the nice debate T, to bad we couldn’t finish.

You are a good man, and thank you for keeping your cool


Ali Rahim