Small Circle Jujitsu

[Lucas]

Anyone have any experience with this system? It seems to be pretty self defense/reality oriented. Curious to see if anyone has any thoughts based on direct experience. I found there is a dojo near me and im going to check it out in January/February. The instructor there is on the official Wally Jay SCJ website dojo directory, listed as Godan black belt 5th degree. So im not worried about the authenticity of the instructors relation to the developer of the system. plus i found that the dojo is actually in between my work and home, which is perfect placement for me. Just hoping the schedule isnt during my work hours, like most places around here are.....most classes start when im walking out the door, making me late to every class. some people just dont let that fly. i digress, any thoughts/opinions/experiences would be much appreciated.

thanks.

oh ya, official site:

http://www.smallcirclejujitsu.com/

[1bad65]

Wally Jay is one of George Dillman's flunkies. I would avoid him like the plague.

Here he is shilling for the fraud: http://www.dillman.com/videos.asp

Here is his son embarrassing himself trying to do a no touch knockout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

[Lucas]

dang it! why is everything that fits my schedule crap!?!?!?!

[Lucas]

Why would dan inosanto endorse that? i was under the impression that hes legit.

[GeneChing]

I know Grandmaster Wally Jay personally, along with his wife Bernice and son, Leon. Wally Jay is a pillar of the martial arts community, as well as a genuine Hawaiian gentleman.

I actually challenged Leon to knock me out without touching me. I wrote about it in No Touch Knockouts: Pressure Points and Qi Projection in our 2002 July/August issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=234).

Of course, 1bad65 can call me biased since we carry a lot of the Jay's DVDs (http://www.martialartsmart.com/japanese-arts-dvd.html), stuff from Wally, Leon, Ed Melaugh and even Dillman. ;)

[Lucas]

thanks for the input. of course i plan on checking it out anyway for a first hand experience. just hoping to get as many responses here as i can. the dojo here looks like its got some time on it, which is a good sign, as well as a ton of equipment frauds wouldnt even need. im not really interesetd in pressure point ko/no touch ko stuff, but more along the lines of the joint manipulation/throws/takedowns/controls that should be present in the style. im assuming based on what ive read its going to be small joint manipulation for a large portion of the material, but of course there is a path one must take to get to that small joint control. thats what im looking for really.

a little controversy always helps discussion though. :D

[1bad65]

Maybe he will listen to me because I'm speaking the truth and backing it up with proof. Proof that includes videos and Dillman's own words.

Neither Dillman nor any of his students or instructors have ever no touch KO'd a skeptic. And for years James Randi had a standing $1,000,000 challenge to anyone who could. At least one failed, and Dillman himself never had the guts to even try. Dillman even refused to try and KO the National Geographic reporter. He had Leon Jay try, and fail.

Gene, you seem like a rational, educated man. Do you honestly believe Dillman when he himself says that it wont work on a skeptic? Or when he says it wont work if you have your tongue "in the wrong position in your mouth"? Or when he says it wont work if one toe is up and one is down? Here is the video of him saying exactly what I claim he did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

Here is Dillman instructor Tom Cameron, a 7th Degree Black Belt under Dillman, failing to no touch KO pro fighter Stephen Bonner and also a female reporter who can't weigh over 125lbs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

And it's not just me doubting the no touch stuff. Here is Jeff Johnson, founder of the International Xiang Sheng Kung Fu Association: "There’s always been a tradition in martial arts of following the “wisdom” of one’s instructors without question out of some misguided idea of respect. In this, the martial arts establishment bears an alarming resemblance to a fundamentalist religion. Sometimes it's just that air of invincibility instructors tend to exude. I even had a student tell me once he felt me throw my "chi" at him when I did nothing more than turn in his direction. "Wasn't me!" I told him.

I advise students to look to Bruce Lee’s notion of using “No way, as way” – Take what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is uniquely your own. Luckily, at least some martial arts teachers are skeptics." http://randi.org/jr/200511/110405please.html

[Lee Chiang Po]

Lucas, small circle is just an emphisis on the application of technique, but it is pretty much the same as all Jap jujitsu. It is worth your while to learn it. It beats the snot out of Brazilian jujitsu, which is born of Jap jujitsu. I have 4th black belt in jujitsu and find it to be one of the most effective systems. Wally Jay is not a fraud. I know nothing of the other guy spoken of, but Wally is the real deal. Of course you will probably never see him, but do it anyway. You will be glad you did. You don't have to subscribe to the no touch knock out, which I am also skeptical, but the system itself is good.

LCP

[1bad65]

It beats the snot out of Brazilian jujitsu, which is born of Jap jujitsu.

Actually Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is born of Kodokan Judo.

Mitsuyo Maeda brought Kodokan Judo to the Gracies in Brazil in the early-1900s. Maeda was one of Kano Jiguro's top 5 groundwork students who he had travel the world to spread his art. Jiguro was the founder of Kodokan Judo. Maeda never took Japanese Jiu-Jitsu. He did practice sumo before he began training in Kodokan Judo. Maeda rose to the rank of 7th dan in Judo.

[mawali]

Pre-1940's judo/jujitsu had a lot of ne-waza (groundfighting) and so Maeda taught this way as part of training. Post war Japan tended to disregard ne-waza due to Westernization and de-militarization so most was "lost", not taught as part of curriculum! Prior to BJJ, most people thought that all you had to do was hit or throw the person and the fight was over! Not!

[jdhowland]

Jay's small circle jj developed from his experiences in danzan ryu (arguably america's first eclectic system) and kodokan judo. Okazaki's danzan ryu is praiseworthy for including methods from western wrestling, boxing, hawai'ian lua, police h2h, chinese gung fu and other sources. Jay never abandoned the system (i believe he holds an honorary 10 dan in dzr) but he departed from the traditional curriculum in order to emphasizes mechanics over rote technique.

He's nobody's flunkie. He is a kind man who loves to share and loves to investigate new ideas. Of course, now that he is retired his approach will tend to be fossilized into a new standard curriculum by following generations.

I agree with Gene. Wally and Bernice are wonderful people who did much to popularize jj in this country when it was being eclipsed by judo, karate and aikido.

One benefit to learning this system is that you will likely be welcomed into any dzr dojo to train and can easily find commonalities and training partners among practitioners of judo, sambo and other jj forms.

Lucas, i hope the scheduling works out for you. This may be too convenient to pass up.

jd

[Lee Chiang Po]

Actually Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is born of Kodokan Judo.

Mitsuyo Maeda brought Kodokan Judo to the Gracies in Brazil in the early-1900s. Maeda was one of Kano Jiguro's top 5 groundwork students who he had travel the world to spread his art. Jiguro was the founder of Kodokan Judo. Maeda never took Japanese Jiu-Jitsu. He did practice sumo before he began training in Kodokan Judo. Maeda rose to the rank of 7th dan in Judo.

Yea, but Jiguro Kano studied jujitsu. He wanted to compete and so developed his judo for that purpose. It became so popular in Japan that it was taught to the military rather than jujitsu. However, it is no where near as complete as jujitsu. There was a time when there were only 7 living individuals that could be masters of jujitsu. That was back in the 50's and 60's, and it was not popular in Japan even back in mid 1800. Judo became popular simply because it became a sport like MMA. I hear Maeda got pi$$ed off when Gracie started calling his Judo, Brazilian Jujitsu too.

[1bad65]

However, it is no where near as complete as jujitsu.

Then why do professional fighters, whose livelyhood depends on winning fights, train Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and not Japanese Jiu-Jitsu?

[jdhowland]

Then why do professional fighters, whose livelyhood depends on winning fights, train Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and not Japanese Jiu-Jitsu?

Because judo has more competetive experience behind it. Much of the "complexity" of koryu jj-type systems results from their being adjuncts to weapons and armored systems. The later (mostly 18th and 19th century) systems were geared more to civilian self defense and physical culture, but kata training was the norm. Judo was designed to be a modern application of jujutsu and the novel idea of friendly competition was introduced, making judo better informed for bouts on the tatami.

But you knew that. I realize it was a rhetorical question.

jd

[Frost]

Then why do professional fighters, whose livelyhood depends on winning fights, train Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and not Japanese Jiu-Jitsu?

They use because BJJ works in a fight, as does judo, hence fighters, police forces and the military prefer them to Japanese JJ and small circle JJ which has never been proven to work in a modern setting, just because he is a nice man and has a lovely wife does not make what he teaches good self defence material. He hangs with a known fraud in Dillman and has not produced one fighter, not one that in itself would make me suspicious of him. And Dan Inosanto speaks kindly about everyone, he is a nice man and a true gentleman.

Judo is taught to the military in Japan because judo beat all comers in the police trials and proved it was better for self defence, judo is not popular because it’s a sport, its because it works on a resisting individual, something JJ has a hard time doing

[GeneChing]

Perhaps you should read my aforementioned article. :rolleyes:

[1bad65]

Perhaps you should read my aforementioned article. :rolleyes:

I tried, but I was not able to find it.

I clicked the link and it had a listing of all the articles in that particular issue, but I could not find a link to the article you spoke of.

[GeneChing]

It's only in print. You'd have to get a copy of the back issue (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kf-200111.html). :p

[1bad65]

It's only in print. You'd have to get a copy of the back issue (http://www.martialartsmart.com/kf-200111.html). :p

Money is tight right now.

I will say I doubt his claims because I have witnessed several failures by his high ranking students, and I've also observed how he himself NEVER has tried to no-touch KO a skeptic. That speaks volumes. And Dillman's "tongue and toes" excuse is laughable. After hearing that foolishness, I can't see how anyone would believe him.

[Lucas]

have not as yet read the responses, but ill get to it through the work day. just wanted to thank everyone who responded to this thread so far.

[goju]

Then why do professional fighters, whose livelyhood depends on winning fights, train Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and not Japanese Jiu-Jitsu?

nate marquarts a bb in jap jujitsu:D he teaches as well ive heard

[Lucas]

from just looking at the facility it looks like a no bs place. well worn equipment, no strange advertisements or claims. it just looks like they like martial arts. of course ill know more when i talk to the sensei, ill make sure and update my findings here in a month or so when i get in there.

[wiz cool c]

I have a black belt in jjj and a green belt in judo. In my opinion they both have their strong points. jjj might be better for a women in a self defense situation where she might need to claw an eye or use some kind of weapon. Judo produces a better fighter. If I had a fist fight that I new was unavoidable and had time to train for it I would chose judo. At the same time there are techniques that a small weak person would have to use to defend themselves in a violent crime that can be learned form jjj that goes beyond throwing ,pins and chokes.

[Lucas]

i really want to train here :
http://www.obukanjudo.com/ but its impossible for me to get there even close to on time, unless i quit my job. right now our unemployment rate is so high, and i live alone, so i cant risk it. I'm looking at that small circle dojo as an alternative until my situation changes. as it is i would end up showing up when the class is near over. :(

thanks for the input wiz cool c, its valued

[Frost]

i really want to train here :
http://www.obukanjudo.com/ but its impossible for me to get there even close to on time, unless i quit my job. right now our unemployment rate is so high, and i live alone, so i cant risk it. I'm looking at that small circle dojo as an alternative until my situation changes. as it is i would end up showing up when the class is near over. :(

thanks for the input wiz cool c, its valued

in that case just go along, any trainng is better than nothing, sod what everyone else says its your training only you know after going if its for you or not