Historical CMA... weapons?

[MightyB]

What was more important to train in CMA in the past - weapons or bare hands?

[uki]

What was more important to train in CMA in the past - weapons or bare hands?training the foundations of bare handed martial arts gives you the ability to use a weapon - weapon proficiency and barehand proficiency should develop inter-dependently. :)

[Lucas]

thrust me into the pre fire arm era, and i will put most of my time into weapon training and carry at least 4 ive mastered at all times while traveling 1 weapon being my specailty. sword on hip/back, daggers in belt, staff in hand and some thrown weapon concealed. at the very least. of course i would train empty hand, mostly wrestling and joint manipulation, but probably 70-90% of my time would be on killing people with weapons and defending from weapons with my weapons and defending weapons empty handed and disarming.

in a 'civilized' invironment id have at least 2 or 3 on me. as for empty hand i would master the basics and wrestling, and maybe a bit more but leave it at that

but thats just me, im a weapon wh0re

oh ya, as for the actual question...LOL...i dont know, i suppose it would depend on the era, as well as where you are located. local issues and what not. also i would say it depends on your way of living.

[Kpower]

weapons were hard to come by for poor peasants and so hand to hand was born. just my opinion.

[SnowDog]

What was more important to train in CMA in the past - weapons or bare hands?

I would have to say weapons. Look at every pre-firearms warrior cultures from the Greeks, to the Mongols, to the Vikings, the Samurai, and my guess also the ancient Chinese the weapons training always came first and the empty hand was trained incase you lost your weapon.

Also, not sure if this is correct but I thought that I read that some of the oldest records or martial training in China were for weapons based combat. Once again not sure if this is accurate.

[Mano Mano]

training the foundations of bare handed martial arts gives you the ability to use a weapon - weapon proficiency and barehand proficiency should develop inter-dependently. :)

load of crap

[Mano Mano]

weapons were hard to come by for poor peasants and so hand to hand was born. just my opinion.

yet more crap

[uki]

load of crap

yet more crap
wow... since you have been here, two loads of sh!t have started to stink. :)

[Mano Mano]

wow... since you have been here, two loads of sh!t have started to stink. :)
Bare hand training doesn’t give you the ability to use a weapon.
Practicing a weapon based martial art gives you ability to use a weapon whether you have any previous bare/empty hand training or not.


Also farmers had no trouble getting their hands on weapons for defence as they had easy access to farming tools.

[uki]

Bare hand training doesn’t give you the ability to use a weapon.yes it does... it gives you the foundations of movement... weapons are naturally an extension of your body.


Practicing a weapon based martial art gives you ability to use a weapon whether you have any previous bare/empty hand training or not.and vice versa, yet barehanded martial arts tend to set the foundations of footwork.


Also farmers had no trouble getting their hands on weapons for defence as they had easy access to farming tools.i wasn't the one who suggested otherwise.

[Drake]

No, you train in the nuances of the weapon so it BECOMES an extension of your body, not the other way around. You would not ever use a broadsword as you would your fist, nor would you with butterfly swords, or even a staff, for that matter.

Simplistic thinking has its place, and it's not by giving people bad info based off of pithy, but entirely inaccurate quotes.

For the OP: As said earlier, many peasants had trouble getting their hands on weapons, many of which we train in being reserved for the soldier more than the citizen (broadsword, for example). The only exceptions I know of have been in the early days, where tent poles were used as staves, and in Japan, where weapons such as the tonfa were originally tools used by farmers.

If you dig deeper, you'll find several weapon sets that do not have militaristic orgins. Here's a good list from GM Doc Fai Wong.

http://plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/formslist.html

You can probably figure out which ones peasants used, and which ones the more affluent or military used.

[Mano Mano]

yes it does... it gives you the foundations of movement...
if you talking about the foundation of movement for empty hand martial arts yes but not weapons

weapons are naturally an extension of your body.and vice versa, yet barehanded martial arts tend to set the foundations of footwork. weapons are a natural extension of the hand; however that is only true of weapons based martial arts

i wasn't the one who suggested otherwise.
However you did say this
[
training the foundations of bare handed martial arts gives you the ability to use a weapon - weapon proficiency and barehand proficiency should develop inter-dependently. :)
which is basically what I’m disagreeing with

[Mano Mano]

also as the dynamics of weapon to weapon combat is different to empty hand combat such as deferent distances, timing over the distances & different targets.

[Drake]

also as the dynamics of weapon to weapon combat is different to empty hand combat such as deferent distances, timing over the distances & different targets.

Yep, or else they wouldn't have forms of weapons vs weapons.

[dirtyrat]

certain empty hand practices can carry over to weapons use and vice versa.

dynamic tension or iron body conditioning can help you absorb/deflect the impact you would get if you were to use say butterfly swords against a staff wielding opponent. granted you would ideally want to deflect instead of blocking directly but life isn't ideal.

the sensitivity drills found in cma also can potentially carry over to weapons usage. its naturally easier to develop that kind of sensitivity with hands first. same with learning body mechanics/structure. the study of leverage is easier to grasp through grappling training, etc, etc

it is a given that there are differences in empty hand and weapons use, but again empty hand training was only considered a supplement for the weapon user.

[bawang]

hy

"this art doesnt come from the military, it has some benefits, so it is taught in martial art schools. but it is not very useful, so it is covered briefly, at the end of this section.
barehands is not useful in warfare, but it excercises the hands and feet and trains hand eye coordination, so it is taught commonly as a door opener to martial arts to beginners"
general qijiguangs ming dynasty

[dirtyrat]

hy

"this art doesnt come from the military, it has some benefits, so it is taught in martial art schools. but it is not very useful, so it is covered briefly, at the end of this section.
barehands is not useful in warfare, but it excercises the hands and feet and trains hand eye coordination, so it is taught commonly as a door opener to martial arts to beginners"
general qijiguangs ming dynasty

very interesting quote. thanks for sharing that. i think i've heard of him, but never read any of his work as of yet.

[dirtyrat]

i remember that general now. stanley henning wrote an article on him. i even posted the link to that article on some other thread once.


http://Seinenkai.com/articles/henning/qijiguang.pdf

[Mano Mano]

Yep, or else they wouldn't have forms of weapons vs weapons.
Today’s weapons forms are no better than baton twirling & weapons v weapons form are not combat they are really just theoretical interpretations of weapons combat.
The way to learn weapons combat is to spar with weapons & you don’t need to start with empty hand combat 1st to do that, just ask any military man. If the empty hand rout was the practical way to learn weapons every army throughout history would have trained their men that way & the military is where all martial arts started.

[uki]

If the empty hand rout was the practical way to learn weapons every army throughout history would have trained their men that wayso does training in weapons train you to fight when you lose those weapons???


the military is where all martial arts started.what an asinine and ignorant statement... folks, i think ray has been trumped of pure idiotcy. :D

[Mano Mano]

hy

"this art doesnt come from the military, it has some benefits, so it is taught in martial art schools. but it is not very useful, so it is covered briefly, at the end of this section.
barehands is not useful in warfare, but it excercises the hands and feet and trains hand eye coordination, so it is taught commonly as a door opener to martial arts to beginners"
general qijiguangs ming dynasty
I know general qijiguang did trained his troops in empty hand boxing, however as he was said to be practical general I cant see him wasting presious time drill his men in boot camp with empty hand boxing drills 1st when he new they were going up against trained Japanese swordsmen.

[Drake]

Today’s weapons forms are no better than baton twirling & weapons v weapons form are not combat they are really just theoretical interpretations of weapons combat.
The way to learn weapons combat is to spar with weapons & you don’t need to start with empty hand combat 1st to do that, just ask any military man. If the empty hand rout was the practical way to learn weapons every army throughout history would have trained their men that way & the military is where all martial arts started.

Absolutely, and I can't think of any organization that trains weapons and empty hands the same way, or even as the same topic. Two completely different things.

[uki]

Two completely different things.this goes to show the level of your comprehension - all things are one. :rolleyes:

LOL... the army truly did erase any semblence of a free-thinking mind... didn't it? :D

[Mano Mano]

so does training in weapons train you to fight when you lose those weapons???
yes it does

what an asinine and ignorant statement... folks, i think ray has been trumped of pure idiotcy. :D
& congratulations for giving yourself the pure diotcy award.

[uki]

congratulations for giving yourself the pure diotcy award.LOL... nice try redcoat. :p

[Mano Mano]

LOL... nice try redcoat. :p
:o
I have no real disagreement with you personally it’s the regurgitated dross fed to martial artists as fact without the person receiving the info questioning if the info is right or at the least practical.

By the way as I’m British, Redcoat isn’t much of an insult is it, more of a compliment.

[Drake]

this goes to show the level of your comprehension - all things are one. :rolleyes:

LOL... the army truly did erase any semblence of a free-thinking mind... didn't it? :D

It's called learning, as opposed to making stuff up as you go along. All things are one? What, did you get that off a fortune cookie? Maybe all things aren't one. You should try listening to someone other than yourself for a change, instead of thinking you know everything.

[bawang]

I know general qijiguang did trained his troops in empty hand boxing, however as he was said to be practical general I cant see him wasting presious time drill his men in boot camp with empty hand boxing drills 1st when he new they were going up against trained Japanese swordsmen.

you are right .he wrote in civilian schools its taught first before weapons, he taught it last as a extra excercise

a very important thing is he said empty hand fighting is not even considered a martial art. its taught to beginners before learning martial arts.

i think its important what he wrote about sparring. "lose sparring once no punishment. lose sparring twice , beat with stick 5 times. lose three times, beat 10 times. lose more than 5 beat 40 times and expel from army"

[Dragonzbane76]

I have no real disagreement with you personally it’s the regurgitated dross fed to martial artists as fact without the person receiving the info questioning if the info is right or at the least practical.

By the way as I’m British, Redcoat isn’t much of an insult is it, more of a compliment.

don't worry uki was hand fed his dogma from HW8. there butt buddies to the highest order holding grudges against anyone that do not agree with there retoric.

[Drake]

you are right .he wrote in civilian schools its taught first before weapons, he taught it last as a extra excercise

a very important thing is he said empty hand fighting is not even considered a martial art. its taught before learning actual martial arts.

i think its important what he wrote about sparring. "lose sparring once no punishment. lose sparring twice , beat with stick 5 times. lose three times, beat 10 times. lose more than 5 beat 40 times and expel from army"

Do you think this might cause winners to sometimes lose a match intentionally to keep their friends employed? And what about over a period of time? The longer you fight, the more likely it is that you will lose. I'd say 5 times is a pretty low number, especially for those who planned on staying in for some time.

Or am I misreading this?

[bawang]

i meant 5 times in a row sry. i dont think its likely to chea if you get found cheating then its beheading



Absolutely, and I can't think of any organization that trains weapons and empty hands the same way, or even as the same topic. Two completely different things.
long fist
a lot of the weapon forms today are for performance only so u cant find the similarity

[Drake]

i meant 5 times in a row sry. i dont think its likely to chea if you get found cheating then its beheading



long fist
a lot of the weapon forms today are for performance only so u cant find the similarity

I'm not terribly familiar with the long fist connection with weapons training. Can you give me the short version?

And yeah... 5 times in a row, especially if you consider that they may put you against easier opponents each time, is bad.

[Lucas]

many of the movements in modern longfist forms carry over empty hand or armed. there are still individual weapon techniques, but performance sets are just for show, so there is a 'standard' of techniques used in performance sets. alot of transition.

[bawang]

I'm not terribly familiar with the long fist connection with weapons training. Can you give me the short version?


movements from longfist comes directly from movements of weapons, footwork from longfist comes from the spear.
the horse stance(50/50 stance) is the main fighting stance of the long spear. seven star and beast head (40/60 or 30/70) is from saber. beat the drum (30/70) is from staff . shuffle step is from shield and spear

[Drake]

movements from longfist comes directly from movements of weapons, footwork from longfist comes from the spear.
the horse stance(50/50 stance) is the main fighting stance of the long spear. seven star and beast head (40/60 or 30/70) is from saber. beat the drum (30/70) is from staff . shuffle step is from shield and spear

What's the Chinese romanization for those stances? I've gotten used to using say ping ma, diu ma, etc etc.

[bawang]

What's the Chinese romanization for those stances? I've gotten used to using say ping ma, diu ma, etc etc.

sorry i didnt learn in cantonese. northern spear uses high si ping (ma), middle si ping, low si ping. im sure diu ma is seven star stance also

[Drake]

sorry i didnt learn in cantonese. northern spear uses high si ping (ma), middle si ping, low si ping. im sure diu ma is seven star stance also

My fault for not specifying between Cantonese and Mandarin. Everything I've ever learned in Chinese has been Cantonese.