Xing Yi People: Power Delivery

[kfson]

In the 5 fists, do you deliver your punch simultaneous with your leading step or trailing step?

I recently had a discussion with a Xing Yi practitioner from another school who delivers with the leading while I use the trailing.

The body seems to be able to use spiral/torqueing energy and body mechanics more efficiently with rear step delivery. Also, the front foot does not need to be brought up as high and the stomping can be reduced. This seems to make the front foot stay closer to the ground in more of the Bagua tradition.

[chud]

Depends. For PiChuan (Splitting), I would say leading step.

[dimethylsea]

In the 5 fists, do you deliver your punch simultaneous with your leading step or trailing step?

I recently had a discussion with a Xing Yi practitioner from another school who delivers with the leading while I use the trailing.

The body seems to be able to use spiral/torqueing energy and body mechanics more efficiently with rear step delivery. Also, the front foot does not need to be brought up as high and the stomping can be reduced. This seems to make the front foot stay closer to the ground in more of the Bagua tradition.

Some bagua likes to emit maximum power with the leading step, just like xingyi or baji stereotypically do.

[kfson]

I will have to look into this further then.

[KTS]

u can train it either way. traditionally, the ending of the force issued is coordinated with the back leg's step.

depending on the situation though, i would change the timing to suit the situation. regardless, the follow up half step has various functions whichever way you prefer to coordinate it.

[cerebus]

"Hands and feet arrive at the same time" which I learned to mean that the front foot touches the ground as the striking hand makes contact with the opponent.

[kfson]

OK, I've been concentrating on the sequence of 1st step, fist, and 2nd step.
That is the sequence. Like a wave.
If the 1st step and the fist arrive at the same time, the tension of the body as an arched bow can not be released.

[KTS]

"Hands and feet arrive at the same time" which I learned to mean that the front foot touches the ground as the striking hand makes contact with the opponent.


so, do u carry out the rest of the movement as you sit on the back foot then? or is the half step, in your tradition, simply a following movement with purpose to recharge an attack and to keep balance?

i love to mix up practice. and, i have practiced and studied timing in every way possible. but historically, at least in my lineage, the ending of the action correlates to the back leg's half step.

[KTS]

anyways, for power delivery, there are a ton of things you have to study. angles, coordinating body movement, balance, direction of force, type of force, etc etc etc

so much that, whatever timing you use with your legs becomes kind of irrelevent in a way, as long as you remember the double weighting rules(same side, even weight, etc). some of ya know what i mean.

[cerebus]

The following-step takes place a a part of the whole technique, rather than being thought of as something separate (though at a beginning level it is referred to separately). The initial impact comes from the lead hand/ foot arriving at the same time with the full forward-moving bodyweight behind them, the following step continues the power and adds extra force to the initial impact while further "taking" the opponent's "space".

[KTS]

that is a good description, sounds about right to me.



Some bagua likes to emit maximum power with the leading step, just like xingyi or baji stereotypically do.

front leg weighting in xingyi is extremely momentary. the front foot coordinates with the beginning of an action, and the half step correlates with the ending of the action. at least in the hebei style zhang junfeng taught.

in a somewhat related point, the half step is even seen in boxing. but in boxing, the half step is only to maintain balance, and not used in conjunction with any application.

[kfson]

that is a good description, sounds about right to me.




front leg weighting in xingyi is extremely momentary. the front foot coordinates with the beginning of an action, and the half step correlates with the ending of the action. at least in the hebei style zhang junfeng taught.

in a somewhat related point, the half step is even seen in boxing. but in boxing, the half step is only to maintain balance, and not used in conjunction with any application.

This is what I'm getting.

I've tried many times to get the front foot and the hand to land at the same time, but it doesn't work for me. I will try to find an online vid of either.

[cerebus]

I've tried many times to get the front foot and the hand to land at the same time, but it doesn't work for me.

It takes practice...

[kfson]

Here is Hebei Xingyi by Liu Xiao Ling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3XQIZOyoqM&feature=related

Note:
0:33
1:03
1:53

[kfson]

It takes p(r)actice...

I've tried both deliveries and have found almost a completely different generation of power in the two.

[KTS]

It takes practice...

QFT

i found it a bit awkward at first, like everybody else did. i didn't "get it" overnight, or in a month, and who knows how much i "got it" now even after years.
now, it is smooth, fluent, and completely natural feeling though. this only comes after tens of thousands of reps, thousands of hours of regular everyday practice, and years of investigating movement.

kfson, when did you start? how long have you been working xingyiquan?

[KTS]

btw, did you learn splitting outright? anything before it, or in a specific way?

how i was taught, first started with footwork/moving pattern. those need to be fluid and correct. then the steps combined with static postures of splitting fist were done as standing work only - heavy emphasis on low and long postures with extreme coiling. only after that, was the pattern connected as the movement that we know of as splitting fist.

[cerebus]

KTS, you mentioned Zhang Junfeng earlier, are you from the Hung I Hsiang lineage, and if so which branch?

[KTS]

ah, yes. zhang junfeng > hung i-hsiang > my teacher.

my teacher is kinda on the DL. he trained with hung back in the late 60's and early 70's.

[kfson]

QFT

i found it a bit awkward at first, like everybody else did. i didn't "get it" overnight, or in a month, and who knows how much i "got it" now even after years.
now, it is smooth, fluent, and completely natural feeling though. this only comes after tens of thousands of reps, thousands of hours of regular everyday practice, and years of investigating movement.

kfson, when did you start? how long have you been working xingyiquan?

I started about 7 years ago.

Here is pretty much what we did for static delivery:
http://www.guba.com/watch/2001015314/Ba-Gua-Posts-Set-52828-yEnc-The-Fundamentals-of-Pa-Kua-Chang-Volume-II-Park-Bok-Namvol4237PAR2

Here is pretty much the way I deliver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3XQIZOyoqM&feature=related

[KTS]

for static delivery... a park bok nam bagua video link? interesting, but sorry - dont have time to look through the whole park bagua vid at this minute, but many thanks for sharing.

the 2nd video, it was posted earlier. so i have seen it. in watching the first initial movement, i tend to drill up on more of an angle, instead of bringing the right hand up close and almost looping it forward.

it might be better if you can describe.

7 years.... your pi quan should be extremely natural by now. i would say, if u have practiced solo for 1 hour minimum per day, and have practiced applications and contact sparring, your splitting fist should be completely natural in both movement and demonstration by now.

as mentioned, my teacher was one of hung i-hsiang's public, and also private students. which camp are you from, btw? i mean, who taught your teacher?

i will check out more of the 1st video you linked to after my taiji class tonight.

[cerebus]

ah, yes. zhang junfeng > hung i-hsiang > my teacher.

my teacher is kinda on the DL. he trained with hung back in the late 60's and early 70's.

Would your instructor be Sifu Yu? I trained with North American Tang Shou Tao, from the lineage of Hsu Hong Ji myself.

[KTS]

Would your instructor be Sifu Yu? I trained with North American Tang Shou Tao, from the lineage of Hsu Hong Ji myself.

ding ding ding. u know him? i can say hi for u.

tang shou tao is a very respectable branch off of hung's teachings. i very much respect the work done by it's members. so i am sure you have the goods being a member and a kungfu cousin of mine(yeah!). and all the torturous low coiled stance work that goes with it. haha.

[cerebus]

No, unfortunately I've never met him, but I read the really nice article he wrote for Journal of Asian Martial Arts and of course I'm always interested in all the branches of Tang Shou Tao, and of course I always love to hear about the "old days" from people who were there.

The thing I especially enjoyed about my years of membership in the TST was the annual full-contact Hsing-I tournaments the Association holds. I loved getting out there and seeing how well I could make different things work against someone who was trying to knock me on my azz... :D

[KTS]

well, our group does fight in full contact tournaments and does well.

check your PMs.

yes, of course... hung taught in a most practical way. and would let that be known in sparring apparently. haha. poor students!

[kfson]

for static delivery... a park bok nam bagua video link? interesting, but sorry - dont have time to look through the whole park bagua vid at this minute, but many thanks for sharing.

the 2nd video, it was posted earlier. so i have seen it. in watching the first initial movement, i tend to drill up on more of an angle, instead of bringing the right hand up close and almost looping it forward.

it might be better if you can describe.

7 years.... your pi quan should be extremely natural by now. i would say, if u have practiced solo for 1 hour minimum per day, and have practiced applications and contact sparring, your splitting fist should be completely natural in both movement and demonstration by now.

as mentioned, my teacher was one of hung i-hsiang's public, and also private students. which camp are you from, btw? i mean, who taught your teacher?

i will check out more of the 1st video you linked to after my taiji class tonight.

My movement is smooth, but I'm working on making it silky smooth and sharp.
One reason why I asked the original question was to see if anyone would bring up telegraphing as the front foot lands slightly before the hand.

You have brought up a point of contention about a lack of transparent lineage in the school where I used to practice, though the source is Taiwan.

[uki]

i use both... depends on the intention behind the movements. :)

[KTS]

hmm... i simply asked which school, rather, lineage you are taught because it helps clarify a few points. even within the same schools of teaching there are many differentiating points of practice. it is not too much of a matter though.

anyways i will attempt to answer what i can.

you say your movement is nice and smooth... that is very very good. it takes a bit of practice to get to that point. any sharpness i add is mostly from concentrating on a particular part of the action, if you know what i mean. at first, meaning within the first year or so of practice, my simple goal was to unite the stillness with the movement practice. and then polishing that also took a while too. i don't like to rush things, as you can probably tell.

telegraphing.... never had a problem with that in the least. i am sure you know that pi quan is simply a "type of action" in the way i am stating it, and it's application can be as fluent as it needs to be.
have you had any trouble with "telegraphing" yourself?

[kfson]

have you had any trouble with "telegraphing" yourself?

Watch the leading leg in peripheral vision. In the 5 fists it always telegraphs.

[KTS]

Watch the leading leg in peripheral vision. In the 5 fists it always telegraphs.

xingyiquan's attacks are offence blended with defence. there is not room to telegraph in this way.

of course a purely offensive attack has "lead-in" movements. some xingyi guys love to use a false attack to initiate a response and then use a real attack.

your last statement, quoted above, sounds like you are unsure of xingyiquan's martial capabilities. it works. and it is well known for just that - working.

[uki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yoZMD7lmTA

i got this from a rather mysterious facebook friend...

[kfson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yoZMD7lmTA

i got this from a rather mysterious facebook friend...

That's what I thought.

[uki]

That's what I thought.the suspense is killing me... he's a forum member that caught the facebook friends revolving door of other forum members here... glad you're thinking. :)

[Kansuke]

i got this from a rather mysterious facebook friend...



Herpies? Yeah, I'd tell you to be careful if you weren't too stupid to understand what that means... :rolleyes:

[uki]

Herpies?that's what you get when you kiss a$$ your whole life. :p

[Kansuke]

You dropped out pretty early it seems...

[uki]

You dropped out pretty early it seems...i made sure i graduated first. :D

[kfson]

...the silicone's next...

[cerebus]

I've always liked that Kenny Gong video. Very different in many ways from what I learned, but he definitely has some smooth movement and from what I understand was a very skilled individual.

[kfson]

Xing Yi Quan demonstration by Feng zheng Bao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPJ0LGVpHLs