real deal on Leong Jan

[Hendrik]

Again,

This confirm there is WCK before 1851 via CLF. Enjoy!

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQxMjkwNTc2.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQxMjk3OTgw.html

We know Leong Jan's is in the same era with Yik Kam, Cho Soon of Cho family. Taiping heavenly Kingdom uprising.



This also confirm what my late sifu told me on using code to identify oneself in the Taiping Anti-Qing Era.

These people are revolutionish, they are not gangsters.

In fact, as we can see in CLF eventhough they are the biggest supporter of the Taiping and the Modern China including fight the Japanese.

They have the "3 not teach" rule: not teach government officers, not teach bullies, not teach gansters. 6.51/10.46



What had happen in the past always left trace. and that can be tracked.
It is just a matter of time, and 1850 was not that far from 2010.

Ten years ago, when I brought up WCK is created before 1850, some challenge this idea, now we know WCK is before 1850.


Step and step , slowly, truth will be reveal. By 2020 we will know even more.

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik- those two links are in Chinese. Is there an English translation or summary?
thanks, joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

I think it is great that Hendrik is researching into WCK's past. I only wish, to echo Joy, that he would make this information available to us (by translation, etc.).

While looking into the history is interesting, my concern is when people try to use history to validate method -- i.e., this is how things were done in the past, and so that is the "right" way to do them. We can look at all the functional martial arts and see that isn't the case. How people boxed in the early 1800s isn't de facto the "right" way to box. How people grappled in the early 1800s isn't de facto the"right" way to grapple. Etc. Method (fighting and training) evolves over time, and is ONLY validated by current results.

[TenTigers]

I think it is great that Hendrik is researching into WCK's past. I only wish, to echo Joy, that he would make this information available to us (by translation, etc.).

While looking into the history is interesting, my concern is when people try to use history to validate method -- i.e., this is how things were done in the past, and so that is the "right" way to do them. We can look at all the functional martial arts and see that isn't the case. How people boxed in the early 1800s isn't de facto the "right" way to box. How people grappled in the early 1800s isn't de facto the"right" way to grapple. Etc. Method (fighting and training) evolves over time, and is ONLY validated by current results.
I think that by saying,definitive phrases like "ONLY," you limit yourself, and close yourself off to other possibilities.
I am all for traininig to be ring/cage/street ready. Realistic training is what all Martial Arts needs. Grappling is a reality everyone should embrace-and will. It is inevitable, just some will take more time than others.
BUT-that does not negate Traditional training. Remember, real traditional training was hardcore. These guys fought for real. Only in the past few generations has it become watered down. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It is unfortunate that people are willing to drop all that is traditional, and train hard in one method, when nobody was willing to put in the time and effort to train traditionally.
I have met those that did put in the time and effort. Their numbers are few. Their skill is scary. Mind boggling. And sadly, gone forever....

[Hendrik]

The Chinese since 1850 faces chopping by big knife to Japanese Samurai sword.....etc in real battle where killing is the bottom line.

Any of these if it is not more lethal it is not less deadly then grappling in street.

in the clip, CLF wrote the Chinese Martial art history with blood and spirit, against Qing and the Japanese in the past 150 years. WCK is top of the line in 1850. That is reality.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hi Hendrik,

Can you just clarify a) what your assertion is? and b) what the documentary tells us regarding Wing Chun?

I think you have hinted at it but would like more info.

Thanks,

Suki

[punchdrunk]

I don't know what it says, but if it's on the net IT MUST BE TRUE!!!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik- those two links are in Chinese. Is there an English translation or summary?
thanks, joy chaudhuri



Joy,

in 1851, Leong Jan have a match with one of the early founders of CLF and Leong Give approval for CLF to open school in Fut San. where Leong Jan was a top lead in Fat San's martial art community 1850's.

Later, CLF link with multiple uprising since 1851 to early 1900 including the Taiping uprising.......and fought the Japanese invasion army using the CLF knife Technics...

[Hendrik]

An excellent description on the clips.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980534&postcount=4

[Vajramusti]

An excellent description on the clips.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=980534&postcount=4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Four points--

1. well known that Leung Jan was a fighter.

2. We don't know what happened behind closed doors.Inferences are not always reliable. Could be that to give face and dignity LJ agreed to the CLF school as well.It is till a CLF story via HSK's paraphrasing.

3. We know that wc existed in the first quarter of 19th century in Leung Jan's training days.The 17th century detail remains somewhat cloudy, except for the strong likelihood of Leung Jan building on those who came before him.A full martial art often evolves with good synthesis rather than zero..The possible synthesis of crane and snake remains interesting.

4. As wing chun became less battle tested in the last few decades-the standards for developing killing power could have become unevenly met.... specially in Chairman Mao's era
with it's transformation into demonstartion wu shu....in the mainland...except for a few like Sum Nun in wc and Chen Fake''s top disciples in taiji. Legal constraints still prevent public display of many skills- possibly shown as simulation.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Joy,


1. well known that Leung Jan was a fighter.

That is confirm from different style as in the Clip.




2. We don't know what happened behind closed doors.Inferences are not always reliable. Could be that to give face and dignity LJ agreed to the CLF school as well.It is till a CLF story via HSK's paraphrasing.


It doesnt matter be cause both LJ and CLF are top notch people.




3. We know that wc existed in the first quarter of 19th century in Leung Jan's training days.


The 17th century detail remains somewhat cloudy, except for the strong likelihood of Leung Jan building on those who came before him.

A full martial art often evolves with good synthesis rather than zero..The possible synthesis of crane and snake remains interesting.

Yup.






4. As wing chun became less battle tested in the last few decades-the standards for developing killing power could have become unevenly met.... specially in Chairman Mao's era
with it's transformation into demonstartion wu shu....in the mainland...except for a few like Sum Nun in wc and Chen Fake''s top disciples in taiji. Legal constraints still prevent public display of many skills- possibly shown as simulation.


yup.

and

I am interested to seek bring the internal training part out because those practice is good for health and better living for us. We can use it in 2010 to benifit all of us.

[TenTigers]

I am interested to seek bring the internal training part out because those practice is good for health and better living for us. We can use it in 2010 to benifit all of us.

I think that would be an excellent idea. How would you accomplish this? Articles? Books? DVD's? Seminars? All of the above?

[Hendrik]

I think that would be an excellent idea. How would you accomplish this? Articles? Books? DVD's? Seminars? All of the above?


Why do you think I am here talking political incorrect for passed 10 years?

See, it cant be done via Articles, Books, DVD's, Seminars...etc. It needs lots of interaction, endless fine tuning. It is loads of communication of experience.

and sometimes EEG and other Biofeedback machine and modern methods are needed to clearify things.

It is a long term stuffs because there is so many things needs to be clear up. and we are not 24/7 like those in 1850.


The biggest issues today is what the general think is internal art is not at all. Otherwise see how many can heal thier common cold with their kung fu? not to mention high blood pressure and other more serious dis-order.... etc.


Ask Jim who has been working with me for years. and see how is it things so simple but so much needs to be fine tune.



BTW.

there is no West or East when it comes to internal art. I often said, if you cant find a good sifu, go do deep prayer in silence if you are a Christian, I am not joking here because there is a preparation/conditioning one needs and the safest way is go prayer. Either one can enter into silence or not. even superficial Silence is better then knowing none of it.


As for the Qi and lower abdorment breathing. those have a few miles stone or steps it is not what most think it is. that is forsure.

and Again, I am still learning too from lots of sifus of mine. It is a journey. and Toto, we are not in Kansas anymore. That is also the reason I stop communicating with Terence here. it is not Kansas but if one insist it is, I let it be and I wont talk. However, I know you will be stuck and trap within Kansas. One cant use Kansas map to discuss what is it 30 thousand feet above. Why do I know? because I stuck like that in Kansas before for decades. You want to waste your life? it is ok with me, if you insist it is still Kansas 30 thousand feet above it.

So, why am I so sure? because many I know have to rely on it to live. It is not an entertainment or a fantasy fighting match but something one has to face 365/12/7/24.

I have told you and others again and again, SLT is not and definitely not Iron Wire disregards of how you all brought up the narrow stance, short bridge.....etc. and thus if you do SLT similar to Iron Wire, you cant gain much benifit internally and in fact it destroy the dynamics of SLT and got the cultivation stuck.



Another topic is the crane and snake stuffs. it is so simple and clear but it takes decades or even a life time for some one to evolve out of their closing mind which trap into a certain form.

The other night I have a great chat with GM Robert Chu and I raise the question of Why the heck we need to spend 30 or 40 years to grow out of our box. In fact we dont have to waste time trapping within the box like that.

We are actually trap the hell out of ourself and thus the Kung fu never really evolve but matching in a close circle in the same spot.

[t_niehoff]

I think that by saying,definitive phrases like "ONLY," you limit yourself, and close yourself off to other possibilities.
I am all for traininig to be ring/cage/street ready. Realistic training is what all Martial Arts needs. Grappling is a reality everyone should embrace-and will. It is inevitable, just some will take more time than others.
BUT-that does not negate Traditional training. Remember, real traditional training was hardcore. These guys fought for real. Only in the past few generations has it become watered down. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It is unfortunate that people are willing to drop all that is traditional, and train hard in one method, when nobody was willing to put in the time and effort to train traditionally.
I have met those that did put in the time and effort. Their numbers are few. Their skill is scary. Mind boggling. And sadly, gone forever....

I have no doubt that some of them "fought for real" and that many of them were tough guys,etc. But that is equally true of traditional japanese jiujitsu. I think TCMA is essentially in the same place that traditional JJJis -- much of it contains the necessary elements but lacks a good training method. When Rene asked Sum Nung what the main difference was between the past masters and todays practitioners he replied that in the past they fought a lot. The good ones fought a lot and got better from the fighting. That was true of the tradiditional JJJ guys too. Were some ofthem scary? I'll bet they were. But that doesn't mean that they were most effectively training.

I think that once you come to appreciate the actual mechanism or process for developing athletic skill, you immediately see the problems with traditional-style training.

[LoneTiger108]

For the first time in 2010 I see a thread that has good roots to grow :D

Regardless of what anyone may think about how Hendrik communicates, at least he is trying! When I sieve through the topics here lately most just bore me senseless and if there is one thing Hendrik is good at it's making me reflect on my own time training and researching.

I loved Fatshan (Foshan) when I visited for the opening of the Ip Man 'Museum' (Tong) especially because it's situated just inside the Ancestral Parks (which also house a much more established Wong Fei Hung Museum)

It's unfortunate that we as Wing Chun practitioners seem to rely on other arts or styles to verify what we have been told about past Masters but as long as the information can be independently researched all is good in the hood. I know for a fact that Foshan Council has pretty much capitalized on the Martial Arts due to the overwhelming amount of foreigners that visited there at the opening of IMT and I can only hope that we can all learn a little something more about our heritage in 2010 through more open dialogue.

I think it's way over due in all honesty...

[Hendrik]

A song for the past of WCK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4kwPKZREKs&feature=related


一开始我只相信 伟大的是感情
最终我无力的看清 强悍的是命运....
想留不能留 才最寂寞
没说完温柔 只剩离歌

[LoneTiger108]

A song for the past of WCK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4kwPKZREKs&feature=related

Are you saying the Bandit was actually in love with Wing Chun? :confused:

Lost in translation???

[anerlich]

Why do you think I am here talking political incorrect for passed 10 years?


Not "political incorrect", just "incorrect".

[duende]

Not "political incorrect", just "incorrect".

Exactly!

Hendrik is personally making up the connection between Leong Jan and the Taiping uprisings. The videos talk of the Hung Sing CLF group's (red victory kwoon) interactions with Leong Jan due them moving into the county where Leong Jan was previously teaching. Interesting yes, but historically significant no, at least not in the way Hendrik would have people believe.

This thread is just pure speculation on Hendrik's part.

Doesn't really matter when you believe WCKF was invented.

[Vajramusti]

Note the context of Hendrik's comment, a response to Ten Tiger in the context of Hendrik's interest
in spreading his POV on "internal"- A different context from the forwarding of the interesting CLF story on CLF
startup in Leung Jan's area-in the Taiping rebellion period.Looks like two different issues.
Joy Chaudhuri:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik Hendrik is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
I think that would be an excellent idea. How would you accomplish this? Articles? Books? DVD's? Seminars? All of the above?

Why do you think I am here talking political incorrect for passed 10 years?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Hendrik]

Exactly!

Hendrik is personally making up the connection between Leong Jan and the Taiping uprisings. The videos talk of the Hung Sing CLF group's (red victory kwoon) interactions with Leong Jan due them moving into the county where Leong Jan was previously teaching. Interesting yes, but historically significant no, at least not in the way Hendrik would have people believe.

This thread is just pure speculation on Hendrik's part.

Doesn't really matter when you believe WCKF was invented.


1, Where in this topic that I making up connection betwee Leong Jan and the Taiping?


2, History is important for it tells the facts.

[Hendrik]

Joy,

It is totally a different issues.

And I wonder why is so many afraid to face the real WCK history?

The clip prof that WCK/LJ and his ability can be traced to 1851 and before. It is not some BS style or making up self promoting stories which is not verifiable.

Thus, it is not only my ancestor of the Cho family can be varified, LJ can be verified solid too. and I am sure there are more to come.

For LJ to fight the CLF top of the top martial artists who is named in Chinese uprising is a complement for WCK. WCK is real deal atleast as good as CLF in that era.

Looking at the CLips look at the contribution CLF has done for China helping it country and people. I respect these people and this Style.


Sure I am incorrect or political incorrect in some's eyes;
100 years from today WCner will remember what is the facts. and it is worthed to be blame and critics and ....etc for searching for the facts.

As a martial artists one needs to have the courage to stand for what is the facts, as those ancestors stand for their people.






Note the context of Hendrik's comment, a response to Ten Tiger in the context of Hendrik's interest
in spreading his POV on "internal"- A different context from the forwarding of the interesting CLF story on CLF
startup in Leung Jan's area-in the Taiping rebellion period.Looks like two different issues.
Joy Chaudhuri:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik Hendrik is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
I think that would be an excellent idea. How would you accomplish this? Articles? Books? DVD's? Seminars? All of the above?

Why do you think I am here talking political incorrect for passed 10 years?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[bennyvt]

why would they lie. How about the fact wsl handed them their asses in hk. Sounds like people trying to use vt to make them look better. Verified is not a guy who makes money off it telling you thats imy it happened cause his teacher didnt want to say that leung jan ****ed them up. cant see how you could prove other wise.

[chusauli]

I think what Hendrik is saying here is there is an independent verifiable source of Leung Jan's existence as stated in the video in Cantonese and it would suggest that WCK is older than the time of the Taiping Tian Guo (1851 - 1871). At the end of the Taiping rebellion, the Operas were banned from performing...which allegedly led to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai to seek employment elsewhere and with other means, (i.e. teaching WCK)...

The video speaks of a Jeung Yim, who learned from the Ching Cho Monk, with a code name of "Hung Sing", who came to Futshan and paid his respects to the established master, Leung Jan. Leung Jan's disciple tried to test Jeung Yim's attainment, and received a blow himself. This lead to a match between Jeung Yim and Leung Jan...

Jeung Yim is the founder of Choy Lay Fut in Futshan.

Hendrik's explanation is that we can verify Leung Jan in Futshan as a master prior to 1851; this would make WCK older than we thought...Leung Jan would have to had learned his WCK earlier than 1851...

I see some of you have not had your Cantonese or WCK History lessons... :) And despite the fact that many of you think Hendrik is crazy, this is important information... it would also do well instead of attacking him, you could ask for his clarification.

[Hendrik]

RC,

Thanks. You hit the target.

a good song on the WCK history and this topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZAzv1oXAfk&feature=related


Enjoy!

[Hendrik]

Are you saying the Bandit was actually in love with Wing Chun? :confused:

Lost in translation???


Nothing to the bandit.
all todo with the visionary and heros of the past.

想留不能留 才最寂寞

[LoneTiger108]

Nothing to the bandit.
all todo with the visionary and heros of the past.

Thanks for helping me with that!


Hendrik's explanation is that we can verify Leung Jan in Futshan as a master prior to 1851; this would make WCK older than we thought...Leung Jan would have to had learned his WCK earlier than 1851...

I have always been under the impression that this was common knowledge, and for some reson I have the date 1833 in my head from somewhere (can't remember where!) And you're totally right for pointing out that this is 'historical' stuff and worth remembering.

Of course I would prefer to have a source that isn't linked with Foshan Council as I know too that they're keen to draw in tourists.


At the end of the Taiping rebellion, the Operas were banned from performing...which allegedly led to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai to seek employment elsewhere and with other means, (i.e. teaching WCK)...

So with the facts comes the fiction! It would be so cool to be able to verify the existence of Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai, but as far as I'm aware that has never been accomplished(?)

I also find it a bit concerning that Ip Ching has also mentioned in an interview that Chan Wah Suen is the only student (toah dai) to be accepted by Leung Jan and in some ways nothing before that can be considered as history.

And we all know that Ip Man was CWS 16th and last student (according to the Ip Family)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIkKwNVCUM

[chusauli]

So with the facts comes the fiction! It would be so cool to be able to verify the existence of Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai, but as far as I'm aware that has never been accomplished(?)

I also find it a bit concerning that Ip Ching has also mentioned in an interview that Chan Wah Suen is the only student (toah dai) to be accepted by Leung Jan and in some ways nothing before that can be considered as history.

And we all know that Ip Man was CWS 16th and last student (according to the Ip Family)


We can reasonably speculate someone had to teach Leung Jan...so, in possibility, it could have been a Leung Yee Tai or Wong Wah Bo or both...but, yes, we do not know for sure. WCK history prior to Leung Jan is a big question.

[duende]

I think what Hendrik is saying here is there is an independent verifiable source of Leung Jan's existence as stated in the video in Cantonese and it would suggest that WCK is older than the time of the Taiping Tian Guo (1851 - 1871). At the end of the Taiping rebellion, the Operas were banned from performing...which allegedly led to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai to seek employment elsewhere and with other means, (i.e. teaching WCK)...

The video speaks of a Jeung Yim, who learned from the Ching Cho Monk, with a code name of "Hung Sing", who came to Futshan and paid his respects to the established master, Leung Jan. Leung Jan's disciple tried to test Jeung Yim's attainment, and received a blow himself. This lead to a match between Jeung Yim and Leung Jan...

Jeung Yim is the founder of Choy Lay Fut in Futshan.

Hendrik's explanation is that we can verify Leung Jan in Futshan as a master prior to 1851; this would make WCK older than we thought...Leung Jan would have to had learned his WCK earlier than 1851...

I see some of you have not had your Cantonese or WCK History lessons... :) And despite the fact that many of you think Hendrik is crazy, this is important information... it would also do well instead of attacking him, you could ask for his clarification.


For many of us, this is not really extraordinary news. (WC existing before 1850)

The rebellions were politically motivated.. of course. We all know that. The origins of the triads is also well documented as originating from these same political rebellion groups.

If Hendrik wants to be naive and make silly naive comments about Gangsters... that's his prerogative, but it is not history.

As for the energy he received here... well you reap what you sow.

[t_niehoff]

I think what Hendrik is saying here is there is an independent verifiable source of Leung Jan's existence as stated in the video in Cantonese and it would suggest that WCK is older than the time of the Taiping Tian Guo (1851 - 1871). At the end of the Taiping rebellion, the Operas were banned from performing...which allegedly led to Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai to seek employment elsewhere and with other means, (i.e. teaching WCK)...


What is this independent verifiable source? What do we know about the reliability of the souorce or the information?



The video speaks of a Jeung Yim, who learned from the Ching Cho Monk, with a code name of "Hung Sing", who came to Futshan and paid his respects to the established master, Leung Jan. Leung Jan's disciple tried to test Jeung Yim's attainment, and received a blow himself. This lead to a match between Jeung Yim and Leung Jan...


So this is just another story that cannot be independently verified? How do we know this story isn't made up (gosh, it's unlike chinese martial artists to do something like that!)?



Jeung Yim is the founder of Choy Lay Fut in Futshan.

Hendrik's explanation is that we can verify Leung Jan in Futshan as a master prior to 1851; this would make WCK older than we thought...Leung Jan would have to had learned his WCK earlier than 1851...


If the story can be substantiated as true -- which I doubt.



I see some of you have not had your Cantonese or WCK History lessons... :) And despite the fact that many of you think Hendrik is crazy, this is important information... it would also do well instead of attacking him, you could ask for his clarification.

Some of us did ask for clarification.

Oral traditions and stories can suggest lines of inquiry or research but hardly prove anything.

Quite frankly, I don't care if Abner Doubleday really invented baseball or not -- it doesn't change the game.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Hendrik, I have been looking at pictures of the terracotta soldiers that were buried by the first Imperer of China back in the 3rd century. That is just a little bit before 1850 I think. And one of the statues was in what looked just like the pigeon toed Wing Chun stance. I don't read a lot about CMA like a lot of guys here do, so I am not really familiar with other styles or systems. I don't know if there are other systems that have a similar stance, so if one were to ask I would probably say that Wing Chun was around in the 3rd century.

LCP

[anerlich]

it would also do well instead of attacking him, you could ask for his clarification.

This strategy has been politely tried before by many, but instead of clarification they just get immature mind games, false guru bu11shlt and further obfuscation.

Personally, I don't think he could clarify his rants even if he wished.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I have been looking at pictures of the terracotta soldiers that were buried by the first Imperer of China back in the 3rd century. That is just a little bit before 1850 I think. And one of the statues was in what looked just like the pigeon toed Wing Chun stance. I don't read a lot about CMA like a lot of guys here do, so I am not really familiar with other styles or systems. I don't know if there are other systems that have a similar stance, so if one were to ask I would probably say that Wing Chun was around in the 3rd century.

LCP



In case you like to understand chinese culture the following song is a good place to understand why

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr4vj7mk&feature=related


ask some one who has classical chinese literature back ground to explain you the lyrics.


one need to know the soul, the sentiment, the beauty, the music, and the timelessness of the art and its masters. to become one with the art similar to a musician fuse with the music into one. Only at that point one can claim one knows the art, the music, the silence.

[Hendrik]

This strategy has been politely tried before by many, but instead of clarification they just get immature mind games, false guru bu11shlt and further obfuscation.

Personally, I don't think he could clarify his rants even if he wished.


Your heart is full of hatre. It poisons you instead of others.

[Sihing73]

Hendrik, I have been looking at pictures of the terracotta soldiers that were buried by the first Imperer of China back in the 3rd century. That is just a little bit before 1850 I think. And one of the statues was in what looked just like the pigeon toed Wing Chun stance. I don't read a lot about CMA like a lot of guys here do, so I am not really familiar with other styles or systems. I don't know if there are other systems that have a similar stance, so if one were to ask I would probably say that Wing Chun was around in the 3rd century.

LCP

Hello,

I believe that the "Pigeon Toed" stance can be found in other arts. I know that you can see it as a training stance in some systems of Kuntao. Kuntao is often attributed to Chinese immigrants to the Indonesion region blending their arts with local arts.

Like many of the hand shapes, things tend to carry over to other arts and just because something looks like Wing Chun does not mean it is Wing Chun. IMHO, it is less the actual shape and more the energy used in application which distinguishes something as Wing Chun.

[chusauli]

What is this independent verifiable source? What do we know about the reliability of the souorce or the information?

Very good critical thinking skills...I know nothing of the person, nor do I know much about who filmed the interview, nor who told this tale...




So this is just another story that cannot be independently verified? How do we know this story isn't made up (gosh, it's unlike chinese martial artists to do something like that!)?

The fact that a CLF guy told a story about Leung Jan may indicate that Leung Jan existed at that time frame...especially if this story was passed down from someone who witnessed or learned this turn of events.




If the story can be substantiated as true -- which I doubt.

Many MA histories are without substantiations. This month's Classical Fighting Arts Magazine has a good article on Historical Methods in Chinese Martial Arts Research written by Brian L. Kennedy, JD, and Elizabeth Guo. It examines a lot of critical thinking issues....




Some of us did ask for clarification.

Oral traditions and stories can suggest lines of inquiry or research but hardly prove anything.

Quite frankly, I don't care if Abner Doubleday really invented baseball or not -- it doesn't change the game.

It doesn't prove anything but certainly does suggest a line of inquiry. And as for the game, it is what we do today that is more important.

[t_niehoff]

Very good critical thinking skills...I know nothing of the person, nor do I know much about who filmed the interview, nor who told this tale...


Without these details than any information has to be taken with HUGE grain of salt.

One of Hedrik's problems is that he cherry-picks information -- only choosing those "nuggets" that support his ALREADY held views and ignoring any evidence to the contrary.



The fact that a CLF guy told a story about Leung Jan may indicate that Leung Jan existed at that time frame...especially if this story was passed down from someone who witnessed or learned this turn of events.


That's a possiblity (but we cannot even say it is probable at this point). It could also be, for instance, a mde up story to add color.



Many MA histories are without substantiations. This month's Classical Fighting Arts Magazine has a good article on Historical Methods in Chinese Martial Arts Research written by Brian L. Kennedy, JD, and Elizabeth Guo. It examines a lot of critical thinking issues....


I haven't seen it but have read some of their owther work-- and have a favorable opinion of it.



It doesn't prove anything but certainly does suggest a line of inquiry. And as for the game, it is what we do today that is more important.

I concur.

[Hendrik]

This is what it is when I practice my TCMA IMA IE : SLT ; standing post ; six healing sound.....etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOVwokQnV4M

Some will know the music some will not. Some will know how each node is handle how each silence is surface.


Can one quiet the mind and listen to the music?




Music node which is not needed is noise,
to argue the heck out of everything with noise knowing not the music is a wasting of life in an ignorance box mind set with a confusing running mind.

[t_niehoff]

This is what it is when I read Hendrik expouse on SLT:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiJj_8yjLnU

[JPinAZ]

Wasn't it Hendrik that said WCK came about around 1850, which was a result of fusing emei and crane during that time?
Wasn't it Hendrik that said that "we know" that WCK did not exist before 1850's? how the song changes...

[Hendrik]

Wasn't it Hendrik that said WCK came about around 1850, which was a result of fusing emei and crane during that time?
Wasn't it Hendrik that said that "we know" that WCK did not exist before 1850's? how the song changes...

You certainly either dont know how to read or have never read my post with a clear mind.

[JPinAZ]

You certainly either dont know how to read or have never read my post with a clear mind.

Oh really? So now your don't think WC was a fusion of emei and crane around the time of the 1850's? When do you think that happened then?

[Hendrik]

This is what it is when I read Hendrik expouse on SLT:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiJj_8yjLnU



do you know why people are so attached to Entertainment and drink..and workoholic .etc

That is because they hate their mind and dont know what to do. So, they let others lead them to give them some break and then come for more and more.

Well, until you know how to get back to silence that is how life is.

[Vajramusti]

Wasn't it Hendrik that said WCK came about around 1850, which was a result of fusing emei and crane during that time?
Wasn't it Hendrik that said that "we know" that WCK did not exist before 1850's? how the song changes...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the best of my recollection and to be fair:


I don't think that Hendrik has ever said in this forum that WCK came about around 1850 or that
WCK did not exist before 1850.


joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Your heart is full of hatre. It poisons you instead of others.

Thank you for confirming my assertions about you: instead of clarification they just get immature mind games, false guru bu11shlt and further obfuscation.

What is "hatre"?

[Hardwork108]

Thank you for confirming my assertions about you: instead of clarification they just get immature mind games, false guru bu11shlt and further obfuscation.
Generally speaking, I believe Hendrik tries to make you think about what it is that you are actually practicing and perhaps for you to realize that you are not practicing what you think you are practicing.

Of course, rather than realizing that and improving your ways, you turn around and attack him. So Hendrik sees "hate" coming from you.


What is "hatre"?

Hendrik's first language is not English. If you add a "d" to that word then you will be enlightened......

[LoneTiger108]

This is what it is when I practice my TCMA IMA IE : SLT ; standing post ; six healing sound.....etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOVwokQnV4M

It's funny, but the tune I always used to like listening to when training was a bit of the Floyd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlY-JlE5ZCo

Not so much for the healing but for the message. Always felt like us Wing Chun guys were the outsiders of the Martial Art world...

[anerlich]

Generally speaking, I believe Hendrik tries to make you think about what it is that you are actually practicing and perhaps for you to realize that you are not practicing what you think you are practicing.


That sentence makes you sound like you studied abuse of the English language under Donald Rumsfeld.

If that is Hendrik's mission, he has proven himself to be both a failure and a hypocrite.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that by saying,definitive phrases like "ONLY," you limit yourself, and close yourself off to other possibilities.
I am all for traininig to be ring/cage/street ready. Realistic training is what all Martial Arts needs. Grappling is a reality everyone should embrace-and will. It is inevitable, just some will take more time than others.
BUT-that does not negate Traditional training. Remember, real traditional training was hardcore. These guys fought for real. Only in the past few generations has it become watered down. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It is unfortunate that people are willing to drop all that is traditional, and train hard in one method, when nobody was willing to put in the time and effort to train traditionally.
I have met those that did put in the time and effort. Their numbers are few. Their skill is scary. Mind boggling. And sadly, gone forever....

Sadly, niehoff is a one trick pony. Hendrick is full of keen insights; however, guys like niehoff miss the tremendous wealth of information that he offers up.

[Paul T England]

Hi guys,

I have visited and trained in Faatsan on serval occassions with many different schools. I have seen wing chun taught side by side with family hung gar & mok gar.

My take on the whole history is that Wing Chun was taught within the red boat group after leaving shaolin. It was probably closer to hung gar and other southern families at first but the core ideas within Siu Nim Tao have been developed over the generations to what we have today. The art has changed from weapons based / battlefield to more empty hand and street defence. To me Leung Jan line down to Ip Man and people like Yuen kay San did much to develop what we have today.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Hardwork108]

That sentence makes you sound like you studied abuse of the English language under Donald Rumsfeld.
The point of the sentence, which you seem to have grasped, is significant.;)


If that is Hendrik's mission, he has proven himself to be both a failure and a hypocrite.
If you have not understood the point that Hendrik has been trying to make, then perhaps you are the one who has been the failure?