whats the difference?

[chen zhen]

Seven star praying mantis
Taiji praying mantis
plum flower praying mantis

whats the difference between these 3 styles
regarding principles & techniques?

[Tainan Mantis]

chen zhen, I think it would be easier to answer if you narrowed the scope of your question. As it is I don't think a book could finish answering such a question.

[chen zhen]

i see what you mean. i'll narrow it down.
which is the softest seen from an "internal" point of view? are they all long distance styles, or does one of them use short distance striking more than the others?

[Tainan Mantis]

I think that all the styles have elements of hard, soft, long and short. It is just the individual master who emphasizes what he likes. Sometimes this isn't so apparent if you see one master and his students.
If one master looks very soft and internal then the students try to mimic that. Hence people may call it a more internal type of PM. The students will have to practice for a long time before they can adjust the way their master taught them to move to something more suitable for their own body.

Secret Door seems to have short 1 inch type punches. The same techniques, often with the same name, in other styles are longer or softer.
For my body type I like the whipping type movements. Some of the short punches don't work on my lanky frame as well as they do on my teachers, so after a while the PM transforms into something I like. Then, I suppose my students will study my body movement and finally discard it in favor of a body motion that works for them.

After I had studied with my teacher for several years he taught me the 8 Step form Lipi and said this will help me to realize my body's potential. And he was right. Funny thing, other 8 Step schools in Taiwan do the form with a completely different flavor.

So to answer your question, I think it is individual more than the style.

Do you like short strikes? Zhang De Kuei did and so he changed it to short strikes.

Do you like internal? Jiang Hsiang San did and so people call his 6 Harmony PM internal.
But when I learned it, it was still the same techniques.

[mantis108]

Well said, Tainan Mantis. :)

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[tiger lui]

try to get the video,living legends of kung fu.vol.1.it has seven star master brendan lai and wah lum grandmaster pui chan,you can see a diference in style.tai chi praying mantis falls somewhere in between the two,leaning a little more towards wah lum. ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

After seeing and learning those 2 styles I'd say that there is no relation.
Maybe some strictly TaijiPM people have a differen view?

[tiger lui]

you are right,styles can be like apples and oranges,both are fruit but very different.now if you throw in a pear{tcpm} would you say it was more like an apple{wah lum} or an orange{7star}.chen zhen wants to see a difference in styles and that tape shows it.i dont know those two styles{wah lum and 7star} but i do know tcpm and i do know which one it is more like.forgive my abruptness,cheers ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

Tiger,
I see what you are saying. You have seen the Hong Kong version of 7 Star.
There is also a 7 Star in Taiwan passed on by at least four 7 Star masters. This version is different in flavor from Brendan Lai and the Luo Guang Yu lineage.
Some of the forms are the same and some are unique.
Actually the TJPM I thought looked like plum flower. Except the form 12 old hands which looks a little like 7 Star.

On the other hand, a girl who studied Choy Li fut for several years recently came to study with me. Watching her do PM reminded me how much Wah Lum looks like Choy Li Fut.
I don't mean that in a bad way, just trying to define how the different styles look to me.

[Kiasyd]

Hi!

Since you mentioned distinctions between Luo Guang Yo's branches and Taiwan branches, can you tell what kind of differences are these? I'm curious, because I just know my Si-Gung branch (Brendan Lai), never saw another one :)

-- Kiasyd

[Tainan Mantis]

In Taiwan the most common form of PM comes from the Zhou Gao Shan and Su Yu Zhang family. I've heard they are very close and founded the Baji PM organization. Their PM looks like a cross between PM and Baji.
So that when you see the PM form a lot of Baji power generation takes place.

My teacher's school of PM looks different as he never studied with GM Leo. His is a cross between plum flower and secret door. You can get an idea of what it looks like from the panther tape that shows PM in Taiwan.

Since Luo Guang Yu and his teacher Fan Hsu Dong were huge people they did their PM a certain way and as Luo Guang Yu passed PM into Hong Kong it is a representation of how they did it. One of Huang's students came to study 8 Elbows with my teacher. I saw him do PM:
1. It looked just like in Huang's book.
2. The posture was very upright, clean and crisp.

On the other hand our postures are usually tilted to an angle either forward or sideways, and not all movements are crisp. Some of the movements flow from one to the next like Taiji at high speed.

But I've seen the people who have studied for around 15-20 plus years (every day) develop their own personal method that looks quite unique.

[Kiasyd]

Thanks Tainan Mantis, for this info, quite interesting... I hope to see it someday :)

-- Kiasyd

[chen zhen]

Is taijiPM based on tai chi chuan, or are they related in some way?

[tiger lui]

tai chi praying mantis has nothing to do with tai chi chuan,did anyone see an article in a recent Inside Kung Fu magazine on praying mantis tai chi,very odd,the sifu[whom i have met and demoed with]describes the style as tai chi using praying mantis moves,anyone with any insight on this :confused:

[mantis108]

Here's some general information about TCPM

Dynamics of Taiji Praying Mantis
By Robert HUI
October 10, 2000

About 350 years ago, in Shantung province, Northeast of China, Master Wong Long, through his observations of nature, combined the predatory skills of the Praying Mantis, which he developed the Twelve Characters principle, and the agile footwork of the monkeys, which he refined into the Eight Basic Stances, found the Praying Mantis Kung Fu style during his quest for excellence in his combat skill. Since Shantung is a northern province, Praying Mantis Kung Fu is often categorized as a northern style. It is believed that Master Wong was proficient in 17 various styles, which were all northern styles, prior to the creation of his own style. There are as many versions of the birth of various Mantis styles as there are the numbers of the Mantis branches. Major branches of Praying Mantis include Northern, Seven Stars, Plum Flower, Six Harmonies, and Taiji are practiced worldwide. There are also many other hybrids of Praying Mantis styles. Taiji Praying Mantis’s own documentation shows that Master Sun Yuen Cheung (5th Generation) officially named his branch Taiji Praying Mantis which at that time had no affiliation with Taijiquan at all. It was until Master Chiu Chuk Kai (7th Generation, CE 1900 - 1991), who was deeply impressed by the ability of the Taijiquan practitioners, whose six internal disciplines allow them to manipulate energy to defeat their opponent with much ease, that he sought after Chen style Taijiquan (small circles) as well as a Taoist monastery Taiji system. He incorporated them into the Taiji Praying Mantis curriculum. Thanks to his effort, all practitioners of this style now enjoy both the external and internal aspects of Kung Fu.

As a style that is evolved from the north, Taiji Praying Mantis (Mantis for short) has all the characteristics of northern styles. It is not only an agile long-range style, but also one that is comfortable with close-range combat. It is imperative to remember that Mantis is primarily a striking art with a highly developed progressive indirect attack approach. In hand strikes, power is generated from the balls of the feet, through the lower limbs to the spine, and delivered through the upper limbs. Most hand strikes in this style has “crack of the whip” type of power not unlike those found in Taijiquan. Kicks are delivered low to medium height as part of the offence or defense rather than an independent act in order not to sacrifice balance and mobility. They are often blended with footwork as an obstructive or destructive measure to deny the opponent of an operational base of support. Takedowns, which require extensive knowledge of balance and leverage, are usually the third act of combat. They are executed with decisive actions that are designed to maim and inflict damage. Acupoints and leverage are utilized to maximize the effects of joint manipulations and other grappling moves, collectively known as Chin Na in Chinese martial arts. Although the elements mentioned are quite powerful individually, combining them as Sau Fa (combinations) in different sequences really made them most formidable. Despite of the myriad combinations, they all adhere to the Twelve Characters Principles and utilize the Eight Basic Stances. Just as every problem has a solution, it is also true that every combination can either be neutralized or even capitalized by a counter. The Sau Fa platform in Mantis is as significant as Chi Sau (sticky hand) in Wing Chun to transmit the essence of the Mantis combat skills. However, the main objective in Mantis Sau Fa is to train the free flow of combat elements with lightening speed and fluid grace. “Combinations are pronged to be countered, only combinations with tremendous velocity can not be countered,” is a significant Mantis adage. Mantis recognizes that attribute development (qualities) such as speed is paramount to the appreciation of its highly refined techniques; therefore, conditioning is of utmost importance, and is always at the core of very practice session. Taiji systems’ training methodologies help the practitioners to acquire the six disciplines (listen, run, adhere, neutralize, explode, and capture) to manipulate energy in conjunction with the Mantis techniques. The harmonious balance of lightening power and fluid grace in techniques is the reason for Taiji Praying Mantis to be recognized as both a hard and soft style.


Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa