Which Professional Fighters Do You Look To as Examples of Wing Chun?

[HumbleWCGuy]

For example, there are no Dog Brothers who are premier professional fighters. A method that the Dog Brothers will use occasionally is to find fighters who seem to exemplify aspects of Dog Brother Martial Arts to demonstrate the applicability of the techniques against a strong opponent.

I often like to point to Chuck Liddell Losses. Chuck throws more looping techniques and he has been out-struck by by Randy Couture and Quinton Jackson because those fighters committed to dominating the center line.

Who are some of yours?

[Vajramusti]

To answer your request for opinions.The following folks are NOT wing chun folks- but some things that they did parallel some "natural" concepts that are also there in wing chun.

1 Tyson when he was still training with Rooney--peekaboo structure, fairly squarebodied, and short power uppercuts0...when he left Rooney- in the Douglas fight- out of shape, broken peekabpp structure and wild uppercuts and not in peak condition.After Rooney he hada terrible trainer. Downhill after dumping Rooney. The promoter and private problems also played their roles.
What a waste of talent- a real and classic tragedy.

2. Winky Wrights hand peekaboo structure for defense...body structure didn't result in short power.
His lack of structure based power and Paul William's reach were factors in his last defeat.

4 Federenko's one punch knockout of Arlovski when the latter tried to make a flying knee.Roach was critical of Emiliano's handwork before the fight and trained Arlovski. Roach did a good job with the Pacman but he aint perfect.No one is.

Again- no misinterpretation please- they are not wing chunners. I am referring to some concepts to think about..

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

Again- no misinterpretation please- they are not wing chunners. I am referring to some concepts to think about..

joy chaudhuri
Unfortunately, I am sure that it will happen anyway.

[Frost]

Why is it that wing chun guys have to look for examples of wing chun techniques from guys in a full contact enviroment that have never trained wing chun?

And bringing up Liddel is silly, he lost a few fights so what.....he has won a lot of fights with looping punches as well, 13 of his wins have come by TKO and he put Randy on his a*s twice with them....and fedor has done quite well with casting punches

Can you explain the dog brothers quote it makes no sense.. the dog brothers are a gathering of fighters that enjoy testing their skills with weapons against each other in a full contact enviroment, of course they are not profesional as there is no professional weapons format for them to enter, what exactly is your point?

If there was a pro format they would be cleaning up in it, and the techniques they use in empty hand fighting (wrestling, BJJ boxing) are all found in MMA and used by pro fighters

[anerlich]

Personally, I don't see that pro fighters, most of whom have never taken a WC lesson in their lives, necessarily do anything to validate WC when they win fights using techniques or strategies which in almost all cases bear only a coincidental or superficial relationship to those used in WC. This IMO smakcs of a certain level of desperation.

How many pro fighters fight off both sides of the body, use chi sao (really) and use any WC-like techniques rather than straight punches?

If you want to compete well in boxing, wrestling, MMA, kickboxing, etc. you need to work with coaches who understand the rules and the most effective techniques to win under them. All the WC classes in the world will not have the same result. Competition fighters fight the way they do because of one thing - what they do has worked and continues to work in competition.

I don't think this searching for validation from pro athletes for stickfighting in the DB's case, or WC in ours, is necessary. Their aims are different to those of many/most of us. The pro MMA fighters at my BJJ/MMA gym train differently to the amateurs and hobbyists in the same classes.

Some of the DB's have competed extensively at various levels. Knifefighter is a DB and has competed in boxing, BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing and MMA IIRC.

Some WC practititoners, on this board and elsewhere have competed, some professionally, in various combat disciplines with success. Fair to say I think that they have needed to train in stuff other than WC to get there.

I'm not trying to shoot you down, and these are just my own opinions.

[bennyvt]

i always liked rickson gracie. So direct, only uses the bjj for control while he smashes them. But does take the submissions when they come up. Seems like a cool dude too.

[Vajramusti]

Unfortunately, I am sure that it will happen anyway.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just responding to the first post on the thread... on which pros I admire and for what.
Some points:

1. Nature is the context -it's possibilities and it's limits.Gravity, balance, acceleration etc are all phenomena in nature.

2. Wing chun is NOT a collection of techniques IMO. It's an attempt to use best control over oneself in motion.

3.Nothing wrong with trying to see and understand good motion in what others do. It can develop self defense without breaking the body down. But if one doesn't understand wing chun concepts
gibberish and an unblended stew can result. can result.

4.After getting a sense of good motion- nothing wrong in seeing whether it can be used in a wing chun physiological framework. It's still doing wing chun not boxing etc. You are trying to experiment with nature for your own purposes.And understanding the limits.

5. Good studies in motion try to point at nature at work.

It's ok to disagree- I have no problem with that. Gotta go. Ok to have it your way. Cheers.

joy chaudhuri

[kung fu fighter]

Vitor belfort's timing and pressure,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=PlayList&p=776EAC4D2C4E6E9F&index=47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNw_ya7wkdM&feature=related

Mike tyson's rooting/torque power and body movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cU0hlP4Quw&feature=related

[HumbleWCGuy]

Why is it that wing chun guys have to look for examples of wing chun techniques from guys in a full contact enviroment that have never trained wing chun?

And bringing up Liddel is silly, he lost a few fights so what.....he has won a lot of fights with looping punches as well, 13 of his wins have come by TKO and he put Randy on his a*s twice with them....and fedor has done quite well with casting punches

Can you explain the dog brothers quote it makes no sense.. the dog brothers are a gathering of fighters that enjoy testing their skills with weapons against each other in a full contact enviroment, of course they are not profesional as there is no professional weapons format for them to enter, what exactly is your point?

If there was a pro format they would be cleaning up in it, and the techniques they use in empty hand fighting (wrestling, BJJ boxing) are all found in MMA and used by pro fighters

it's becoming pretty apparent that you don't have much of an eye for looking at real-time techniques. U.K. martial arts is often described as being 10 years behind other countries. Your ignorance is probably a product of the substandard martial arts that you study.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Personally, I don't see that pro fighters, most of whom have never taken a WC lesson in their lives, necessarily do anything to validate WC when they win fights using techniques or strategies which in almost all cases bear only a coincidental or superficial relationship to those used in WC. This IMO smakcs of a certain level of desperation.
It depends on why a WC instructor is pointing to a professional fighter. Students should begin to see that techniques work, but their isn't much wrong with showing how other fighters apply WC principles (often unknowingly) to great effect.




How many pro fighters fight off both sides of the body, use chi sao (really) and use any WC-like techniques rather than straight punches?

Good point! it is probably a good idea to keep in mind the similarities and disimilarities when using a pracitioner of anothe art as an example of a specific aspect of your own.



If you want to compete well in boxing, wrestling, MMA, kickboxing, etc. you need to work with coaches who understand the rules and the most effective techniques to win under them. All the WC classes in the world will not have the same result. Competition fighters fight the way they do because of one thing - what they do has worked and continues to work in competition.

Yup



I don't think this searching for validation from pro athletes for stickfighting in the DB's case, or WC in ours, is necessary. Their aims are different to those of many/most of us. The pro MMA fighters at my BJJ/MMA gym train differently to the amateurs and hobbyists in the same classes.

Of course it isn't necessary. It's just something to talk about.



Some of the DB's have competed extensively at various levels. Knifefighter is a DB and has competed in boxing, BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing and MMA IIRC.

I guess that I should say that their aren't any Dog Brother Instructors who are premier fighters. Therefore, much of their stuff hasn't been proven at the highest level.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The DB empty handed MA system, Kali tudo, is a more "recent" development from their Kali background.
It is basically MMA with Kali footwork.
There are a few guys that have been trained in it that are doing MMA now, I forget their names since I don't follow MMA.
The techniques taught and used are the tried and true once that have been being used for decades now in "MMA", the only "uniqueness" being, like I said, some kali "pyramid" footwork.
There are a few other things too, but those are not for the general public yet but they have been used already in MMA and with good success.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yea, it is mainly the Kali footwork that hasn't been proven at the elite level. There are no premier/elite DMBA fighters as of yet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yea, it is mainly the Kali footwork that hasn't been proven at the elite level. There are no premier/elite DMBA fighters as of yet.

Well, not by any DB, no, not that I know of.

[anerlich]

I guess that I should say that their aren't any Dog Brother Instructors who are premier fighters. Therefore, much of their stuff hasn't been proven at the highest level.

IIRC their gatherings were/are open to all comers, and are well attended by non-DB practitioners, even if they are not a professional body. Even if the forum is not that of professional athletes, I think you have to give them kudos as proving themselves as being among the top level of stickfighters.

I don't think they claim to be elite MMAers in any case.

"Proving" that the DB's are or aren't elite MMA fighters says exactly zero about the efficacy or otherwise of WC, in any forum, so I don't see their relevance to the subject of the thread.

[t_niehoff]

Why is it that wing chun guys have to look for examples of wing chun techniques from guys in a full contact enviroment that have never trained wing chun?


Some people love their fantasies.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Some people love their fantasies.

Yes, and your fantasy is that you you are a decent martial artist.

[HumbleWCGuy]

IIRC their gatherings were/are open to all comers, and are well attended by non-DB practitioners, even if they are not a professional body. Even if the forum is not that of professional athletes, I think you have to give them kudos as proving themselves as being among the top level of stickfighters.

I don't think they claim to be elite MMAers in any case.

"Proving" that the DB's are or aren't elite MMA fighters says exactly zero about the efficacy or otherwise of WC, in any forum, so I don't see their relevance to the subject of the thread.

I have seen Denny use tape from non-stick fighters to demonstrate the effectiveness of the upright empty-hand DBMA. Specifically, he has pointed to fighters who seemed to naturally use the kali footwork. I mentioned that Denny has done this to head off some of the knuckle-heads, who are too narrow minded to understand the conversation that is occurring.

[anerlich]

I have seen Denny use tape from non-stick fighters to demonstrate the effectiveness of the upright empty-hand DBMA. Specifically, he has pointed to fighters who seemed to naturally use the kali footwork. I mentioned that Denny has done this to head off some of the knuckle-heads, who are too narrow minded to understand the conversation that is occurring.

If you are saying he uses tape of MMA matches by fighters untrained in kali who seem to use footwork that looks like kali, as stated already IMO this is not really true validation of his method for the same reasons I feel that citing MMA fighters untrained in WC but who look a bit like WC validate WC.

My opinion only, and I mean no disrespect to Marc Denny's ability or experience. To my mind it's a matter of logic, not intelligence.

And once again, his opinions about Kali say zero about the efficacy of WC.

[TenTigers]

If you are saying he uses tape of MMA matches by fighters untrained in kali who seem to use footwork that looks like kali, as stated already IMO this is not really true validation of his method for the same reasons I feel that citing MMA fighters untrained in WC but who look a bit like WC validate WC.

My opinion only, and I mean no disrespect to Marc Denny's ability or experience. To my mind it's a matter of logic, not intelligence.

And once again, his opinions about Kali say zero about the efficacy of WC.

actually, what it does do is validate specific concepts or techniques that these systems use.
If a UFC guy is defeating his opponents by successfully dominating the centerline, then it proves the validity of that concept-which is a focal point of WC.
If Denny shows a successfull fighter utilizing triangle footwork, then it validates those concepts which are mainstays of his FMA.

[sihing]

actually, what it does do is validate specific concepts or techniques that these systems use.
If a UFC guy is defeating his opponents by successfully dominating the centerline, then it proves the validity of that concept-which is a focal point of WC.
If Denny shows a successfull fighter utilizing triangle footwork, then it validates those concepts which are mainstays of his FMA.

So true. It's not about techniques or looking like something, it's about ideas and methods. Wing Chun is only a label, we need to not be attached to the label, but conerned with what the method is teaching and enabling us to absorb.

Machida reminds me of WC in application, he's non telegraphic, he's connected and upright (not broken hip/bent in structure), he has little set up generally. Yeah, I know he's sideways from the outside, but that is on the outside, where there is no need to be connected but rather mobile. He hit and runs a bit too much but what I mentioned reminds of the appliation of the training. Tim Silva did as well, upright, straight on fighter.

James

[anerlich]

Effective use of what looks like a centreline concept or triangle footwork, validates those concepts, which belong to many MA, not just WC. They don't validate WC or kali.

Machida's never had a WC lesson in his life, using him as a WC poster boy is absurd.


Wing Chun is only a label

Not one you can seriously apply to what Machida or other MMA fighters do.


He hit and runs a bit too much

Oh, please. Everyone's an MMA coach now?

[TenTigers]

Effective use of what looks like a centreline concept or triangle footwork, validates those concepts, which belong to many MA, not just WC. They don't validate WC or kali.

Actually, they do just that. If a system is based upon specific concepts, and those concepts are shown to be effective-then they do in fact validate that system-at least that part of that system.
What do you find in WC or Kali that is not valid?

[sihing]

Again it's all about ideas, moments in time, not set techniques or guarantees that this style or that will work 100% of the time. That fight between Belfort and W Silva (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc), demonstrates validity of the idea of straight blasting and forward pressure, it works, but one still has to be able to pull it off, and not all of us are Belfort, so the idea is sound, the individual has to make it work for themselves.

The ones hung up on the label are the ones that don't or won't see it.

James

[Frost]

it's becoming pretty apparent that you don't have much of an eye for looking at real-time techniques. U.K. martial arts is often described as being 10 years behind other countries. Your ignorance is probably a product of the substandard martial arts that you study.

Oh very good you with all your years of training from video tapes obviously have a much better eye for real time technique so tell me where I am wrong?

Fedor does not throw casting punches then? Liddell did not kick Randy’s ass and Titos and everyone else’s over 5 years when he was champ with his open punching style……Or the reason the dog brothers aren’t pro fighters is that there is not a pro weapons format for them to fight in…… Or that its pitiful that wing chun has so few guys competing in full contact events in the west that you have to look outside the style to find evidence of it working…..which of the above is incorrect?

As for the dog brothers they can point to their stuff working in a full contact environment (gathering etc that their fighters attend on a regular basis) as well as to other fighters doing what they say to do in a Pro event. ...can wing chun do the same and say yes here is an MMA fighter dominating the centreline, but wait here is a wing chun instructor using it in a NHB event as well, and here is another and another……

Anyway as Anelich said it is a pointless argument, you should not have to look outside your style to find examples of its principles working…the dog brothers do not have to do this their weapons stuff has been proven to work in NHB for years, its not a pro event but weapon fighters from all over the USA attend, that is their testing ground and proof that their stuff works.

Where is wing chuns testing ground and prove that it works? It does not matter that you can find your principles in others actions, you question should be why can’t you find it in your styles actions in a similar NHB event….. if others can show the centreline theory or whatever better in action than your own style, then perhaps you should be studying what they do and their training methods rather than just saying “hey look they look like we should do isn’t that great and what an endorsement of what I do in my training”?

As for the MA scene being 10 years behind in the UK and my substandard MA history… well LMAO perhaps you should change your handle as that’s not a very humble attitude to have is it

[Frost]

Actually, they do just that. If a system is based upon specific concepts, and those concepts are shown to be effective-then they do in fact validate that system-at least that part of that system.
What do you find in WC or Kali that is not valid?

Actually it does not, it calls into question that styles training methods

All styles are based upon Principles, but it’s the training methods used to make those principles work that are important. If a style has great principles but can only find examples of those principles in use in styles other than itself, then does that not call into question the methods used to train those principles?

If we both have the same concepts/principles in fighting, but one of us can use those concepts and principles in a fight enviroment and one can not, then it validates one persons training methods and calls into question the others

[t_niehoff]

Actually, they do just that. If a system is based upon specific concepts, and those concepts are shown to be effective-then they do in fact validate that system-at least that part of that system.
What do you find in WC or Kali that is not valid?

This whole "validates concepts" idea is absurd. People don't fight with concepts. And looking at things from a conceptual standpoint is wrong-headed in the first place -- that doesn't lead to clarity but to confusion.

"Boxing has straight punches, WCK uses straight punches, so see they use similar concepts of the centerline!" Well, how can you hit an opponent in front of you with a straight punch and not have it go down the center? But that's the sort of reasoning conceptual people use.

Various martial arts use different approaches to fighting, those different approaches require different skills or skill sets. Similar approaches look similar since in trying to do similar things, they have to use similar skills. WCK isn't built on principles, it is skill-based. You don't see WCK unless you see WCK skills in action, just likeyou don't see boxing unless you see boxing skills in action, or BJJ unless you see BJJ skills in action. When you see Tyson or Machida or whomever are you seeing WCK skills in action? No. So you are not seeing WCK. Period.

[t_niehoff]

Actually it does not, it calls into question that styles training methods

All styles are based upon Principles, but it’s the training methods used to make those principles work that are important. If a style has great principles but can only find examples of those principles in use in styles other than itself, then does that not call into question the methods used to train those principles?

If we both have the same concepts/principles in fighting, but one of us can use those concepts and principles in a fight enviroment and one can not, then it validates one persons training methods and calls into question the others

Styles are not based on principles, they are based on an approach to fighting and the skills to implement that approach. Principles/concepts are ideas to help you use those skills.

[Frost]

Styles are not based on principles, they are based on an approach to fighting and the skills to implement that approach. Principles/concepts are ideas to help you use those skills.

fair enough perhaps i should have siad all styles have principles/concepts.....but my point still stands its not the principles that are inportant, its the training methods used to make them work.

[t_niehoff]

fair enough perhaps i should have siad all styles have principles/concepts.....but my point still stands its not the principles that are inportant, its the training methods used to make them work.

When you look at things from a skill-based perspective, it follows that how you train will determine how (well) you develop those skills.

[Frost]

I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done?

really that’s how you answer my points... um ok thanks for the insight......now with all that experience please tell me where I am wrong about Liddell and fedor, where my points about the dog brothers is wrong and where I am wrong about wing chun not having a proving ground and not being able to site its own fighters using its principles effectively

[HumbleWCGuy]

Oh very good you with all your years of training from video tapes obviously have a much better eye for real time technique so tell me where I am wrong?

I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done? Good fighters watch other good fighters. If you didn't live in the U.K., you would have a more sophisticated understanding of fighting and be able to make better use of watching fights. You just don't understand what your looking at which is obvious.

[AdrianK]

I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done?

You're saying that to Frost? Honestly? :rolleyes:

[Frost]

You're saying that to Frost? Honestly? :rolleyes:

sorry have a do something to annoy or upset you:confused:

[AdrianK]

sorry have a do something to annoy or upset you:confused:

I just thought it was kinda well known by now that you're one of the voices of reason on this board.

[Frost]

I just thought it was kinda well known by now that you're one of the voices of reason on this board.

are you being sarcastic or what:eek:

me a voice of reason?

[AdrianK]

are you being sarcastic or what:eek:

me a voice of reason?

In a forum like this, yeah, hahah.

[Frost]

In a forum like this, yeah, hahah.

i think thats a compliment so thanks :)

[Frost]

I have had 10-15 full-contact kickboxing matches what have you done? Good fighters watch other good fighters. If you didn't live in the U.K., you would have a more sophisticated understanding of fighting and be able to make better use of watching fights. You just don't understand what your looking at which is obvious.

a more sophisticated understanding of fighting like you... umm ok so tell me where was i wrong about liddel winning so many fights using those looping punches of his, or fedor winning so many fights whislt throwing casting punches...

[HumbleWCGuy]

a more sophisticated understanding of fighting like you... umm ok so tell me where was i wrong about liddel winning so many fights using those looping punches of his, or fedor winning so many fights whislt throwing casting punches...

I am not against looping techniques. I am a non-classical WC practioner. I do not adhere to the same standards that you tare assuming. You are mistaking Chuck's winning for correctness of technique. It really just boils down to a lot of so so mma striking and the reach advantage that chuck has over a lot of his opponents. Look at how the great chuck liddell crumbles when he lets his love affair with looping techniques blind him and a lesser striker adheres to WC-like principles. Both Rampage and Randy dropped Chuck by just throwing down the middle. Neither Chuck nor Rampage are top strikers by any stretch. Chuck is at his best when he mixes up his looping techniques with straights, but he doesn't do it enough presumably because he gets by most of the time because of the reasons that I have mentioned. If he were fighting in kickboxing, he would not go very far with that type of punching.

[TenTigers]

I am not against looping techniques. I am a non-classical WC practioner. I do not adhere to the same standards that you tare assuming. You are mistaking Chuck's winning for correctness of technique. It really just boils down to a lot of so so mma striking and the reach advantage that chuck has over a lot of his opponents. Look at how the great chuck liddell crumbles when he lets his love affair with looping techniques blind him and a lesser striker adheres to WC-like principles. Both Rampage and Randy dropped Chuck by just throwing down the middle. Neither Chuck nor Rampage are top strikers by any stretch. Chuck is at his best when he mixes up his looping techniques with straights, but he doesn't do it enough presumably because he gets by most of the time because of the reasons that I have mentioned. If he were fighting in kickboxing, he would not go very far with that type of punching.
ah, so we're back to the Leung Jan/CLF methods....?:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

ah, so we're back to the Leung Jan/CLF methods....?:D
I haven't seen any previous arguments to know what I am revisiting.

[Knifefighter]

rI guess that I should say that their aren't any Dog Brother Instructors who are premier fighters. Therefore, much of their stuff hasn't been proven at the highest level.

Really? There are higher levels of stick fighting that what is done at the Dog Bros. gatherings? Where is that? I'd like to check that out.

Or are you once again talking out of your a$$?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Really? There are higher levels of stick fighting that what is done at the Dog Bros. gatherings? Where is that? I'd like to check that out.

Or are you once again talking out of your a$$?

Until their is money in it, their are basically just has-beens and never-wases like yourself who are involved in the dog brother's gatherings. Elite athletes tend to go where the money is and currently it is not at the Dog Brother's gatherings.

[Knifefighter]

Until their is money in it, their are basically just has-beens and never-wases like yourself who are involved in the dog brother's gatherings. Elite athletes tend to go where the money is and currently it is not at the Dog Brother's gatherings.


That still doesn't make them not the top of the heap when it comes to stick-fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That still doesn't make them not the top of the heap when it comes to stick-fighting.

Unfortunately we are talking about empty hand fighting. Of course, you are the only person in this thread who doesn't understand that at this point.

[Knifefighter]

Unfortunately we are talking about empty hand fighting. Of course, you are the only person in this thread who doesn't understand that at this point.

Of course the Dog Bros are about stick fighting, not empty-hand fighting. Stick fighting is what they are all about, dumba$$

You are the one who brought up the Dog Bros. in your own thread about empty hand fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Of course the Dog Bros are about stick fighting, not empty-hand fighting. Stick fighting is what they are all about, dumba$$

You are the one who brought up the Dog Bros. in your own thread about empty hand fighting.

Fail... Do you really go to their gatherings or is that just another one of the fradulent stories that you tell?

[Knifefighter]

Fail... Do you really go to their gatherings or is that just another one of the fradulent stories that you tell?

LOL... do you think they do something besides weapons fighting there? Is that another of your gross misunderstandings?

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... do you think they do something besides weapons fighting there? Is that another of your gross misunderstandings?

I could not tell you the full extent of their gatherings. If the gatherings are all stick fighting then that only goes to further demonstrate that the Dog Brothers empty hand fighting techniques are not proven. Neverwas/Hasbeens who only marginally understand stick fighting (like yourself) bashing each-other with sticks does not demonstrate the effectiveness of the DBMA empty hand techniques (specifically the footwork). Crafty understands this but you aren't intelligent enough to comprehend.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't want to disparage DBMA at all. I like the stuff, but it has not been proven at the highest levels of combat.

I need to come to a gathering so that I can see you get your wig split by some sloppy low-level fighter. I am sure that you will make excuses for everything. I am sure you have a laundry list of stock excuses for why you fail.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... do you think they do something besides weapons fighting there? Is that another of your gross misunderstandings?

Like when you think that that grappling logic applies to upright fighting? Like when a MT arm bar can't be comprehended because it doesn't fit with your BJJ notions about fighting? You will be the first person who I will call upon when I want a solid formula for how to get knocked out because you have it down pat.

[anerlich]

Like when you think that that grappling logic applies to upright fighting?

You're trying to tell us that WC logic applies to MMA. How is that different?

Can you guys get a room with all the insult trading?

[Knifefighter]

I could not tell you the full extent of their gatherings. If the gatherings are all stick fighting then that only goes to further demonstrate that the Dog Brothers empty hand fighting techniques are not proven. Neverwas/Hasbeens who only marginally understand stick fighting (like yourself) bashing each-other with sticks does not demonstrate the effectiveness of the DBMA empty hand techniques (specifically the footwork). Crafty understands this but you aren't intelligent enough to comprehend.

Weapons fighting does not translate to empty-hand fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Like when you think that that grappling logic applies to upright fighting? Like when a MT arm bar can't be comprehended because it doesn't fit with your BJJ notions about fighting? You will be the first person who I will call upon when I want a solid formula for how to get knocked out because you have it down pat.

Upright grappling applies to upright grappling.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Weapons fighting does not translate to empty-hand fighting.

You won't find too many credible weapons fighters who agree with that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Upright grappling applies to upright grappling.

Let me rephrase, your BJJ submission logic doesn't necessarily apply to MT-style fighting.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You're trying to tell us that WC logic applies to MMA. How is that different?

Can you guys get a room with all the insult trading?

I apply WC to striking regardless of the forum that the striking occurs.

The point that needs to be made though is that there are a lot of guys on this forum who think that because you have a bit of half a$$ed striking to go with your BJJ that they are legitimate mma fighters. That's just not the case in 2010. Even worse still these half a$$ed strikers try to lay on this forum and pontificate about striking to people who have as much as 50 years of striking experience. Everyone's opinion is welcome I suppose, but some of this is just flat ridiculous.

[Knifefighter]

You won't find too many credible weapons fighters who agree with that.
Thinking weapons fighting makes you a good empty-handed fighter is like thinking fencing makes you a good boxer.

They are two separate skills.

[Knifefighter]

Let me rephrase, your BJJ submission logic doesn't necessarily apply to MT-style fighting.

I'm not using "BJJ submission logic". I'm using basic knowledge of biomechanics, as well as experience.

But again, feel free to prove me wrong. Enter yourself or your students in some competitions and show the clips of them winning with standing locks.

Of course, most everyone here knows that you are a theoretical non-fighter/coach and will never be able to do that.

[Knifefighter]

I apply WC to striking regardless of the forum that the striking occurs.

The point that needs to be made though is that there are a lot of guys on this forum who think that because you have a bit of half a$$ed striking to go with your BJJ that they are legitimate mma fighters. That's just not the case in 2010. Even worse still these half a$$ed strikers try to lay on this forum and pontificate about striking to people who have as much as 50 years of striking experience. Everyone's opinion is welcome I suppose, but some of this is just flat ridiculous.

What's even more ridiculous are the guys with 10 or 15 amateur kickboxing fights who have never done an MMA or grappling match in their lives but think they know something about MMA and/or grappling.

[Frost]

Fail... Do you really go to their gatherings or is that just another one of the fradulent stories that you tell?

Are you really silly, Dales name is down as a dog brother on their site..... an original member of the pact not just someone who attends and watchs or only fights now and then.... you do not know what it takes to become a memeber of the pack do you... beacuse if you did you would shut up right now and stop looking so stupid:eek::rolleyes:

[Frost]

You won't find too many credible weapons fighters who agree with that.

so were are all the credible weapons fighters then where do they hang out.... lets get them on this thread... oh wait we have one of them posting right now in knifefighter and he seems to slightly disagree with you

[goju]

what was his nick name lol desert dog?:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: Lidells "looping" Punches.
Its not juts Lidell who does them, you will see it done m any times in MMA, there is a reason fro that.

RE: The Dog Brothers.
No one here can even come close to Dale's experience in terms of the DB, Dale IS a DB, one of the original frist generation DB as a matter of fact, "Island Dog" is his "nome -de guerre".
To give some Idea of what Dale has done, He once fought 3 times at a DB gathering and the NEXT day he went and one his division in a submission grappling tournament.

Dale and I don't always agree on things and at times he can be an ass, that is part of his charm, but to question Dale's skill and experience is just the silliest thing to do.
Really.

[Frost]

I don't want to disparage DBMA at all. I like the stuff, but it has not been proven at the highest levels of combat.

I need to come to a gathering so that I can see you get your wig split by some sloppy low-level fighter. I am sure that you will make excuses for everything. I am sure you have a laundry list of stock excuses for why you fail.

oh so you have not even been to a gathering but i have bet you have seen lots of their fights on your tapes... can i ask have you trained or competed in MMA or grappling....

the dog brothers stuff has been proven in a full contact enviroment where anyone can attend and fight, its not pro but it is the highest rated and most attended full contact weapons event out there, id say it has proven itself

[Frost]

RE: Lidells "looping" Punches.
Its not juts Lidell who does them, you will see it done m any times in MMA, there is a reason fro that.

RE: The Dog Brothers.
No one here can even come close to Dale's experience in terms of the DB, Dale IS a DB, one of the original frist generation DB as a matter of fact, "Island Dog" is his "nome -de guerre".
To give some Idea of what Dale has done, He once fought 3 times at a DB gathering and the NEXT day he went and one his division in a submission grappling tournament.

Dale and I don't always agree on things and at times he can be an ass, that is part of his charm, but to question Dale's skill and experience is just the silliest thing to do.
Really.

yep its only the guys that have not competed that tend to rag on his record those that have competed in any sport know how big an accomplishment it is to do what he has done.

Anyway enough but kissing from me what in your opinion are the reasons for the looping punches in MMA, more so than in normal boxing or thai

[goju]

look yeah goody gum drops for him for what he did it still doesnt entitle him to behave the way he does

like i said a lot of people who have competed ufc champion size egos with out deserving it

:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyway enough but kissing from me what in your opinion are the reasons for the looping punches in MMA, more so than in normal boxing or thai

You know why, the grappling element changes the "delivery platform" for linear strikes and makes for "looping punches" to be more natural.

[Knifefighter]

so were are all the credible weapons fighters then where do they hang out.... lets get them on this thread... oh wait we have one of them posting right now in knifefighter and he seems to slightly disagree with you

Actually, of all the posts CluelessWCGuy has made, that is the only one I have seen of his that is close to being right. I've talked to lots of weapons guys who think their weapons training helps them in empty-handed standup. Of course, they are usually the guys who don't really do empty-handed standup on a competitive level like they do with the weapons. Just shows that magical thinking is not just applied to those who are strictly non-fighters.

Most weapons guys who also compete in empty-hand fighting agree with me, however. Since they do both, they have discovered, while there can be some transfer of training, they are largely separate skill sets.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most weapons guys who also compete in empty-hand fighting agree with me, however. Since they do both, they have discovered, while there can be some transfer of training, they are largely separate skill sets.

Quote for truth.

[t_niehoff]

You won't find too many credible weapons fighters who agree with that.

Can you provide any names of these credible weapon fighters?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my limited experience, stick fighting carries more over than knife work, for obvious reasons, but the biomechanics are too different, the power generation and such need to be tweeked more than less.
The range one works in is an obvious factor too.
I think it may be "better" to use empty handed fighting with weapons rather than armed fighting with empty hands.

[t_niehoff]

In my limited experience, stick fighting carries more over than knife work, for obvious reasons, but the biomechanics are too different, the power generation and such need to be tweeked more than less.
The range one works in is an obvious factor too.
I think it may be "better" to use empty handed fighting with weapons rather than armed fighting with empty hands.

Knife work is in my view mostly fantasy stuff. If you aren't really fighting with the knife, it's all conjecture.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Knife work is in my view mostly fantasy stuff. If you aren't really fighting with the knife, it's all conjecture.

Most of what I have seen and been exposed falls into that, yes.
A person can take a great deal of punishment, this is true, but you can't assume you will be able to, nor can you assume a few "flicky slashes" will incapciate someone.
Most knife work tends to fall into the typical "demo" stuff - One guy attacks and the defender turns him into sushi while he just stands there.
If you can fight bare handed well, you have a better chance of fighting well with a knife.

[t_niehoff]

Most of what I have seen and been exposed falls into that, yes.
A person can take a great deal of punishment, this is true, but you can't assume you will be able to, nor can you assume a few "flicky slashes" will incapciate someone.
Most knife work tends to fall into the typical "demo" stuff - One guy attacks and the defender turns him into sushi while he just stands there.


In my view you can't really talk about fighting, whether empty hand or weapon, IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT, and a lot of it. I think that is a **HUGE** problem -- people with no to little experience believing that they know what works, what doesn't work, beleive they have the "concepts", etc. My view is that if you don't see it in fighting, and working against good people, it is fantasy stuff.

How many genuine knife fights have you been in? Probably the same as me. ;) And the same as most of us. We can't KNOW what works or doesn't work -- it is outside our experience. As one of my training partners says, "If you aren't already doing it, you can't do it; if you aren't already doing it, you don't know."



If you can fight bare handed well, you have a better chance of fighting well with a knife.

If you are a good empty-hand fighter, it means you are in condition to fight, and that you have solid stand-up, clinch, and ground skills. Would that person have a better chance against a knife than an out-of-conditioned, unskilled guy? Sure.

[goju]

In my view you can't really talk about fighting, whether empty hand or weapon, IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT, and a lot of it. I think that is a **HUGE** problem -- people with no to little experience believing that they know .

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a812/a812_bm.gif

[m1k3]

t., what would you see as good knife training? The only exposure that I have had was what I learned in boot camp back in the day. The main thing I remember is being told that if you are in a knife fight you are going to get cut.

The military has standards for training people in things that you can't actually do for real. Some of it comes as close to live as they can make it, pugel sticks for example, but you can't go around shooting and cutting up all of your trainees.

Actually this question is open to anyone.

[TenTigers]

I'm glad you guys have little avatars on your posts. It makes it alot easier to scroll past them...
c'mon, guys. can we at least take this to PM's and not waste space? This thread is several pages long, and contains only a handfull of intelligent posts.
(most of them happen to be mine, of course!):p

[Knifefighter]

Knife work is in my view mostly fantasy stuff. If you aren't really fighting with the knife, it's all conjecture.

While you can't do a lot of real fighting with live, sharpened blades, you can still get relatively close. You can fight with unsharpened steel blades that have sharp enough tips to draw some blood without killing you or sending you to the emergency room. Take a couple of shots from a steel blade like I described and you will see what I mean. You can also fight with shock knives, which also give you a somewhat realistic representation of a blade.

[Knifefighter]

t., what would you see as good knife training? The only exposure that I have had was what I learned in boot camp back in the day. The main thing I remember is being told that if you are in a knife fight you are going to get cut.

What's funny, is that while everyone who teaches knife defenses realizes that the probability is high that one will get cut, they teach defenses that assume one will not get cut.

[t_niehoff]

t., what would you see as good knife training? The only exposure that I have had was what I learned in boot camp back in the day. The main thing I remember is being told that if you are in a knife fight you are going to get cut.


My point is how can we know what is effective or not if we don't have results to base our judgment on? Effectiveness isn't based on theory (how we thnk a knife fight should be) but on evidence.



The military has standards for training people in things that you can't actually do for real. Some of it comes as close to live as they can make it, pugel sticks for example, but you can't go around shooting and cutting up all of your trainees.

Actually this question is open to anyone.

I think what needs to be done is first gather sufficient evidence -- reports of hundreds or thousands of knife fights, and see what has worked and what has not. And use that info to base our training on.

[Knifefighter]

My point is how can we know what is effective or not if we don't have results to base our judgment on? Effectiveness isn't based on theory (how we thnk a knife fight should be) but on evidence.



I think what needs to be done is first gather sufficient evidence -- reports of hundreds or thousands of knife fights, and see what has worked and what has not. And use that info to base our training on.

In real life, the majority of cases come down to a knife vs. someone with empty hands. That should be a majority of knife training, both attacking and defending.

You can learn a lot about what really happens by training as close to reality as possible without killing each other, as well as by watching real knife attacks.

[t_niehoff]

While you can't do a lot of real fighting with live, sharpened blades, you can still get relatively close. You can fight with unsharpened steel blades that have sharp enough tips to draw some blood without killing you or sending you to the emergency room. Take a couple of shots from a steel blade like I described and you will see what I mean. You can also fight with shock knives, which also give you a somewhat realistic representation of a blade.

Yeah, I understand you can try to simulate it. Fencing isn't sword fighting. But it is the closest you can get to it without impaling one another. My point is that classical fencing is based on hundreds of years of genuine sword fighting -- takign the lessons learned in sword fights and incorporating that into the teaching/training. And we know that training worked since trained fencers continued to fight duels. Idon't know if this has been really done with the knife.

[sanjuro_ronin]

While you can't do a lot of real fighting with live, sharpened blades, you can still get relatively close. You can fight with unsharpened steel blades that have sharp enough tips to draw some blood without killing you or sending you to the emergency room. Take a couple of shots from a steel blade like I described and you will see what I mean. You can also fight with shock knives, which also give you a somewhat realistic representation of a blade.

The shock knives do keep you honest but I think that at least ONCE a person does need to get cut because there are many other there that don't think it hurts, they think that the adrenline dumb will take care of it and indeed it MAY but as anyone that has ever been cut knows, it may NOT.

[Knifefighter]

Yeah, I understand you can try to simulate it. Fencing isn't sword fighting. But it is the closest you can get to it without impaling one another. My point is that classical fencing is based on hundreds of years of genuine sword fighting -- takign the lessons learned in sword fights and incorporating that into the teaching/training. And we know that training worked since trained fencers continued to fight duels. Idon't know if this has been really done with the knife.

The best you can do is follow proven training principles and get as specific as possible to the actual encounter. Someone who does full contact knife training with unsharpened steel blades will probably be much better prepared for a realistic knife attack than someone who practices doing disarms against a compliant partner.

[t_niehoff]

The shock knives do keep you honest but I think that at least ONCE a person does need to get cut because there are many other there that don't think it hurts, they think that the adrenline dumb will take care of it and indeed it MAY but as anyone that has ever been cut knows, it may NOT.

I can tell you from experience -- having once been cut by a knife in a fight (a mugging) -- and from speaking with victims of knife attacks (though my job), that you often don't feel it. I didn't. I've met stab victims that thought they had been punched and didn't know until later that they were bleeding.

[t_niehoff]

The best you can do is follow proven training principles and get as specific as possible to the actual encounter. Someone who does full contact knife training with unsharpened steel blades will probably be much better prepared for a realistic knife attack than someone who practices doing disarms against a compliant partner.

I can't argue with that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can tell you from experience -- having once been cut by a knife in a fight (a mugging) -- and from speaking with victims of knife attacks (though my job), that you often don't feel it. I didn't. I've met stab victims that thought they had been punched and didn't know until later that they were bleeding.

This is true, I know that for a fact also from personal experience, but you can't count on it, indeed it is not a "selling" point at all.
A friend of mine when bouncing got sucker punched while trying to get some guy out, he was bleeding pretty bad from his cheek, we later found out they guy had a push dagger.
My friend just felt the impact, the "stab" didn't register and the lucky part was that his partner caught the guy doing it before he had a chance to strike again.
In the meantime, Ralph ( friend) never let go of the other person because it only registered as a "punch".

[HumbleWCGuy]

Thinking weapons fighting makes you a good empty-handed fighter is like thinking fencing makes you a good boxer.

They are two separate skills.

Lack of understanding pure and simple.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What's even more ridiculous are the guys with 10 or 15 amateur kickboxing fights who have never done an MMA or grappling match in their lives but think they know something about MMA and/or grappling.

And yet guys like Anderson Silva dominate upright grappling with MT techniques and guys like you get your wigs split in the clinch. Also, I have sparred with tougher MMA fighters than you.

[TenTigers]

I have a nice little scar on my palm from trying to stop a boxcutter.
Let me share something with you. IT FUKIN HURT!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

And yet guys like Anderson Silva dominate upright grappling with MT techniques and guys like you get your wigs split in the clinch. Also, I have sparred with tougher MMA fighters than you.

Silva is also a BB in BJJ.
Seriously, how can anyone say that have fought tougher than someone they have NEVER fought?

[t_niehoff]

Silva is also a BB in BJJ.
Seriously, how can anyone say that have fought tougher than someone they have NEVER fought?

Because he is deluded?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Silva is also a BB in BJJ.
Seriously, how can anyone say that have fought tougher than someone they have NEVER fought?

Yes, how do you think that match-makers set up fights?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Thinking weapons fighting makes you a good empty-handed fighter is like thinking fencing makes you a good boxer.

They are two separate skills.
Lack of understanding pure and simple. Do you go to your stick fighting classes and listen to your instructors? Another statement by you that demonstrates lack of understanding.

[Knifefighter]

And yet guys like Anderson Silva dominate upright grappling with MT techniques and guys like you get your wigs split in the clinch. Also, I have sparred with tougher MMA fighters than you.

Please show one single example of Silva finishing someone with a standing joint lock, Mr. CluelessWCGuy.

Where did I say MT techniques don't work for stand up grappling with striking involved? Please find a single post where I said that.

I'm a huge believer in MT stand up clinching techniques. They are some of the best in the world. I've never said differently. I trained MT style with two world champions and a coach who produced several more champions.

What I am saying and have always said is that it is extremely low percentage to think you can finish a lock in a standing position.

Methinks you also need to go back and study for your high school GED. Maybe then you will develop some basic reading comprehension.

[Knifefighter]

Lack of understanding pure and simple. Do you go to your stick fighting classes and listen to your instructors? Another statement by you that demonstrates lack of understanding.

LOL... dumba$$. I AM a stick instructor.

OH, by the the way Mr. Dumba$$WCGuy... with whom did you do your standup training and for how long?

[Lucas]

we've seen people finish with standing locks before, but thats pretty **** rare. its not easy to do by any means, and you either need your opponent to be totally gassed, crappy in general, or just clueless, or really really unlucky.

on knife/blade attacks: depends on how much shock you are in. you might not 'feel' it at first, but it sets in in seconds, especially if you start bleeding profusely. at least in my experience. a friend and i were knife sparring one time with live blades ( i know stupid) and i got him, he didnt notice it for maybe 5 seconds then it was "YOU F UCKING STABBED ME YOU TARD"

[goju]

Methinks you also need to go back and study for your high school GED. Maybe then you will develop some basic reading comprehension.

bro what next your mama jokes?

oh wait you have already sunk to that level of baboonery:D

[SnowDog]

This is true, I know that for a fact also from personal experience, but you can't count on it, indeed it is not a "selling" point at all.
A friend of mine when bouncing got sucker punched while trying to get some guy out, he was bleeding pretty bad from his cheek, we later found out they guy had a push dagger.
My friend just felt the impact, the "stab" didn't register and the lucky part was that his partner caught the guy doing it before he had a chance to strike again.
In the meantime, Ralph ( friend) never let go of the other person because it only registered as a "punch".

Funny you should mention a sucker punch.

Back in the 90s one of my friends was tangling with this guy in the parking lot of a Bar and his friend jumped out of nowhere and hit him in his left side (ribs) and he thought the other guy sucker punched him, and he kept going at it w/ the 1st guy........Until he started getting light headed, collapsed and had blood coming from his mouth a few seconds later. Turned out the little a$$hole stabbed him and punctured his lung.

[Lucas]

adrenaline and shock or a combination of the two can mask almost anything from what ive seen. if you are under stress and actively fighting/fleeing/persuing, you probably wont register something unless it does some sort of structural or mechanical damage.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... dumba$$. I AM a stick instructor.

OH, by the the way Mr. Dumba$$WCGuy... with whom did you do your standup training and for how long?

Then you are a poor one to say the least.

[Knifefighter]

Then you are a poor one to say the least.

With whom have you done your training with and for how long?

[HumbleWCGuy]

With whom have you done your training with and for how long?

I am anonymous. People with big careers like to keep it that way. People who get K.O. at local mma shows and come to a Wing Chun board to pontificate about things they don't know about don't care if they protect their identities.

[Knifefighter]

I am anonymous. People with big careers like to keep it that way.

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought.

[HumbleWCGuy]

See Knifewuss, for all your posturing, it really comes down to the fact that you aren't trying to convince me of what you know rather, you are trying to convince yourself. The bottom line is that there are big flaws in your game and it all stems from your rigid thinking.

[goju]

what noteable stand up fighter did you have match with by the way dale?:D

im curious

[HumbleWCGuy]

what noteable stand up fighter did you have match with by the way dale?:D

im curious
Just judging by the way that he talks about upright fighting, I would have reservations about putting him in a smoker let alone a competition with good low-level fighters. You could get your license revoked letting him fight.

[Knifefighter]

Just judging by the way that he talks about upright fighting, I would have reservations about putting him in a smoker let alone a competition with good low-level fighters. You could get your license revoked letting him fight.

Really now? This coming from a guy with an "anonymous" training background. But please feel free to cite the specific posts that demonstrate that and then add your specific critiques to those posts.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Really now? This coming from a guy with an "anonymous" training background. But please feel free to cite the specific posts that demonstrate that and then add your specific critiques to those posts.

I already have. Why organize them for you?

[HumbleWCGuy]

oh so you have not even been to a gathering but i have bet you have seen lots of their fights on your tapes... can i ask have you trained or competed in MMA or grappling....

the dog brothers stuff has been proven in a full contact enviroment where anyone can attend and fight, its not pro but it is the highest rated and most attended full contact weapons event out there, id say it has proven itself

Probably proven to a U.K. "fighters" satisfaction. You haven't even seen a gathering in any form so why are you even talking?

[Frost]

Probably proven to a U.K. "fighters" satisfaction. You haven't even seen a gathering in any form so why are you even talking?


I have seen them on tapes and youtube… but you are right I have not seem them in person so I with to someone who has actually competed in a gathering because commentating on something I have never attended or took part and arguing with someone who has done these things is silly don’t you agree………..:D

[Frost]

I am anonymous. People with big careers like to keep it that way. People who get K.O. at local mma shows and come to a Wing Chun board to pontificate about things they don't know about don't care if they protect their identities.

Oh I love this, coming from someone who’s handle is HumbleWCGuy, you said you only had 10 to 15 fights, now you have a big career to, and know more about stickfighting than a dog brother and more about Thai boxing than someone who has fought in Japan and trained with world champions, next you ill be giving grappling lessons on here to guys who have competed in grappling…..oh wait you have already done that

[Frost]

You know why, the grappling element changes the "delivery platform" for linear strikes and makes for "looping punches" to be more natural.

Fair enough, I also tend to think its because of the small gloves used in the fighting, they allow techniques to leak through defences at angles that 10 or 12oz gloves would never get through

[HumbleWCGuy]

Oh I love this, coming from someone who’s handle is HumbleWCGuy, you said you only had 10 to 15 fights, now you have a big career to, and know more about stickfighting than a dog brother and more about Thai boxing than someone who has fought in Japan and trained with world champions, next you ill be giving grappling lessons on here to guys who have competed in grappling…..oh wait you have already done that

It's obvious that I know far more about kickboxing than Neverwasfighter. That's not even in dispute. It really doesn't matter who you have trained with if you don't absorb it or keep it up.

Being a dog brother does not make someone a disciple of DBMA (just a little FYI). The way that NeverwasFighter talks, it is pretty clear that he is not a DBMA disciple. As far as NeverWasFighter's stick fighting, it stains credulity to believe that a credible stick fighter would draw some of the conclusions that he does.

[Frost]

It's obvious that I know far more about kickboxing than Neverwasfighter. That's not even in dispute. It really doesn't matter who you have trained with if you don't absorb it or keep it up.

Being a dog brother does not make someone a disciple of DBMA (just a little FYI). The way that NeverwasFighter talks, it is pretty clear that he is not a DBMA disciple. As far as NeverWasFighter's stick fighting, it stains credulity to believe that a credible stick fighter would draw some of the conclusions that he does.

actually it is in dispute, and seeing how he was invited over to Japan to fight in Thai when he was younger i would say its a fair bet he had absorbed some of what he had learnt, and since he has fought MMA over the years and at the gathering more recently its safe to say he has kept it up both of those events allow stnadup striking as well as grappling i bleieve.


no being a dog brother means he has fought alot at the gatherings and showed enough skill and heart to be invited into the pack.... he is also an original dog brother which means he has been fighting with the sticks for decades which makes him a credibly source of information on stick and knife fighting to most sane people, now if you tell us where you have done your full contact fighting with the sticks, how many fights you have had and in what organisation then we will be able to compare your experience with his and then make up our minds about who is more experienced and who should be listened to, how's that for being fair?

[HumbleWCGuy]

actually it is in dispute, and seeing how he was invited over to Japan to fight in Thai when he was younger i would say its a fair bet he had absorbed some of what he had learnt, and since he has fought MMA over the years and at the gathering more recently its safe to say he has kept it up both of those events allow stnadup striking as well as grappling i bleieve.


no being a dog brother means he has fought alot at the gatherings and showed enough skill and heart to be invited into the pack.... he is also an original dog brother which means he has been fighting with the sticks for decades which makes him a credibly source of information on stick and knife fighting to most sane people, now if you tell us where you have done your full contact fighting with the sticks, how many fights you have had and in what organisation then we will be able to compare your experience with his and then make up our minds about who is more experienced and who should be listened to, how's that for being fair?

I am sorry but the nonsense that he spouts just isn't consistent with being a top-level striker or trainer of strikers. There is something to be said for the saying, "Jack of all trades master of none."

[Frost]

I am sorry but the nonsense that he spouts just isn't consistent with being a top-level striker or trainer of strikers. There is something to be said for the saying, "Jack of all trades master of none."

well seeing as he is a dog brother, 2nd degree BJJ blackbelt, advanced no gi grappler and has fought in MMA and in Japan thats some jack of all trades i must say

so you are a top level striker and trainer of strikers...... its good to have someone of that experience on the boards who do you train then, if thats ok to ask

and you still didn't answer my point about stick fighting, if we could compare your history in that field with Dales we could then be in a better position to understand your differences

[HumbleWCGuy]

so you are a top level striker and trainer of strikers...... its good to have someone of that experience on the boards who do you train then, if thats ok to ask


I would not call myself top-level. I have a full-time job/career that isn't fighting. I would call myself a competent trainer and fighter who would not steer you wrong.

[HumbleWCGuy]

well seeing as he is a dog brother, 2nd degree BJJ blackbelt, advanced no gi grappler and has fought in MMA and in Japan thats some jack of all trades i must say


and you still didn't answer my point about stick fighting, if we could compare your history in that field with Dales we could then be in a better position to understand your differences

He could be valued contributor on this board if he wanted to be, but as it stands he is a bit of a troll.

[t_niehoff]

I am sorry but the nonsense that he spouts just isn't consistent with being a top-level striker or trainer of strikers. There is something to be said for the saying, "Jack of all trades master of none."

No, it's not consistent with YOUR views. You're not a top-level striker or trainer of top-level people. Nor is there any indication that you EVER trained with a top-level striker or trainer of top-level people. In fact, there is no indication of who you have trained with.

Why don't you go voer to mma.tv or sherdog where some proven fighters (some UFC level fighters) post and ask them THEIR views and see if they more closely match Dale or yours. I thnk we all know the answer.

[t_niehoff]

I would not call myself top-level. I have a full-time job/career that isn't fighting. I would call myself a competent trainer and fighter who would not steer you wrong.

I don't know how this is possible since most of what you say is wrong. And, you won't listen to people who do KNOW.

[Knifefighter]

I would not call myself top-level. I have a full-time job/career that isn't fighting. I would call myself a competent trainer and fighter who would not steer you wrong.

I'd say teaching people separate techs to use against scrubs and telling them they can expect to finish with standing locks isn't exactly steering them in the right direction.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough, I also tend to think its because of the small gloves used in the fighting, they allow techniques to leak through defences at angles that 10 or 12oz gloves would never get through

That is a factor too of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Being a dog brother does not make someone a disciple of DBMA (just a little FYI). The way that NeverwasFighter talks, it is pretty clear that he is not a DBMA disciple. As far as NeverWasFighter's stick fighting, it stains credulity to believe that a credible stick fighter would draw some of the conclusions that he does.

Having spoken to Marc Denny personally I can say that you are 100% wrong about Dale.

[Frost]

That is a factor too of course.

when you say its the grappling eleiment that has led to more looping punches being thrown could you elaberate as his has got me thinking ( a bad think to do on here i know),

Thai boxing has a lot of upper body grappling but they still throw pretty much straight shots and conventional boxing type punches, so is it to pull the oppponents hands high and set up midline and lower body for grappling attackes attacks that they use the loopin gpunches more in MMA? ala fedors overhand right to high double?

[sanjuro_ronin]

when you say its the grappling eleiment that has led to more looping punches being thrown could you elaberate as his has got me thinking ( a bad think to do on here i know),

Thai boxing has a lot of upper body grappling but they still throw pretty much straight shots and conventional boxing type punches, so is it to pull the oppponents hands high and set up midline and lower body for grappling attackes attacks that they use the loopin gpunches more in MMA? ala fedors overhand right to high double?

Its the take down element, a MMA fighter has to be conscious of being taken down and as such his mobility and how he commits to a strike is changed.
Linear strikes need more "lean" or "step" to get power where as circular or "looping" strikes get their BAM from torsion and momentum and can be done with a more stable and less commited movement.
Not sure if I am explaining this right...

[Frost]

Its the take down element, a MMA fighter has to be conscious of being taken down and as such his mobility and how he commits to a strike is changed.
Linear strikes need more "lean" or "step" to get power where as circular or "looping" strikes get their BAM from torsion and momentum and can be done with a more stable and less commited movement.
Not sure if I am explaining this right...

nope perfevtly explained and many thanks, this is not something i had given too much tought to although now you have taken the time to right it out i see what you mean :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

nope perfevtly explained and many thanks, this is not something i had given too much tought to although now you have taken the time to right it out i see what you mean :)

Thanks, its just my personal opinion, take it for what it is worth but as with all things, find out for yourself.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'd say teaching people separate techs to use against scrubs and telling them they can expect to finish with standing locks isn't exactly steering them in the right direction.

Fale,
You need to stop putting words in my mouth for one. I told you at least 15 times that standing locks are typically for controlling an opponent which seems to still be out of your realm of understanding. Second, I gave you the opportunity to suggest techniques that would solve the problem within the criteria that I set out. You just rehashed the techniques that I was advocating, a standing choke and 2 on 1s.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't know how this is possible since most of what you say is wrong. And, you won't listen to people who do KNOW.

You are a complete zero in the realm of martial arts so what is your opinion worth?

[goju]

You are a complete zero in the realm of martial arts so what is your opinion worth?

yeah but he watches alot of things man that counts for something!:rolleyes::D

[Lucas]

I'd learn stick fighting from knifefighter.

[Knifefighter]

I would not call myself top-level. I have a full-time job/career that isn't fighting. I would call myself a competent trainer and fighter who would not steer you wrong.

Wait a minute. I thought you said you had this great career as a martial arts instructor, which is why you didn't want to explain whom you trained with?

What's up with that?

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, it's not consistent with YOUR views. You're not a top-level striker or trainer of top-level people. Nor is there any indication that you EVER trained with a top-level striker or trainer of top-level people. In fact, there is no indication of who you have trained with.

Why don't you go voer to mma.tv or sherdog where some proven fighters (some UFC level fighters) post and ask them THEIR views and see if they more closely match Dale or yours. I thnk we all know the answer.

It would be hard to imagine that many credible upright fighters would agree with Fale. To be honest mma striking is generally pretty weak. A Muay Thai board would be better.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Wait a minute. I thought you said you had this great career as a martial arts instructor.
What's up with that?

It wasn't my intent to mislead you. I won't take the blame for that. Although I am sure that you will pretend that I did.
I am a quality trainer but I have a regular career. Teaching martial arts is hardly a great career. There are much better ways to make a living.

[Knifefighter]

I am sorry but the nonsense that he spouts just isn't consistent with being a top-level striker or trainer of strikers. There is something to be said for the saying, "Jack of all trades master of none."


Really now? What am I saying that goes against what top fighters believe? Please be specific.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Really now? What am I saying that goes against what top fighters believe? Please be specific.

reread my posts and find the summary that I have already written.

[Knifefighter]

It wasn't my intent to mislead you. I won't take the blame for that. Although I am sure that you will pretend that I did.
I am a quality trainer but I have a regular career. Teaching martial arts is hardly a great career. There are much better ways to make a living.

OK, then, let me ask you the question again. With whom have you trained and for how long?

[t_niehoff]

It would be hard to imagine that many credible upright fighters would agree with Fale. To be honest mma striking is generally pretty weak. A Muay Thai board would be better.

Go ahead -- go over to a MT board where MT fighters are and see if they agree with you that there are standing joint locks in MT, for instance. Apparently that the rules prohibit it (which I've already cited) and some of us (including me) have personally (not by video) trained MT with some skilled MT people, doesn't convince you. And I don't think hearing it on a MT board would convince you either.

MMA striking isn't "weak" -- it is modified to deal with things that aren't part of pure striking sports. If you went to a decent MMA school and sparred, you would see that while you were getting destroyed.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Go ahead -- go over to a MT board where MT fighters are and see if they agree with you that there are standing joint locks in MT, for instance. Apparently that the rules prohibit it (which I've already cited) and some of us (including me) have personally (not by video) trained MT with some skilled MT people, doesn't convince you. And I don't think hearing it on a MT board would convince you either.

MMA striking isn't "weak" -- it is modified to deal with things that aren't part of pure striking sports. If you went to a decent MMA school and sparred, you would see that while you were getting destroyed.

You just don't get. I feel sorry for you.

[t_niehoff]

You just don't get. I feel sorry for you.

What I "get" is that you don't know what you are talking about and won't listen to anything that or anyone who doesn't support your already held, mistaken beliefs.

I also "get" that you have never really personally trained with qualified (good, proven) grapplers or MT people.

[Knifefighter]

You just don't get. I feel sorry for you.

Now that we have established that you don't have a huge MA teaching career, please list whom you have trained with and for how long.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Go ahead -- go over to a MT board where MT fighters are and see if they agree with you that there are standing joint locks in MT, for instance. Apparently that the rules prohibit it (which I've already cited) and some of us (including me) have personally (not by video) trained MT with some skilled MT people, doesn't convince you. And I don't think hearing it on a MT board would convince you either.

MMA striking isn't "weak" -- it is modified to deal with things that aren't part of pure striking sports. If you went to a decent MMA school and sparred, you would see that while you were getting destroyed.

So Duke Roufus is a liar? He recommended locking the arm and stated that his instructor does it as well. Elbows are illegal in most competitions in the U.S. so do you want to tell me that they are not Muay Thai too?

[Knifefighter]

So Duke Roufus is a liar? He recommended locking the arm and stated that his instructor does it as well. Elbows are illegal in most competitions in the U.S. so do you want to tell me that they are not Muay Thai too?

And I said I have been using that tech for years. So it looks like my views are in line with his.

What is in debate is using that lock as a finishing break/submission. Do you believe that is a valid finishing break/submission?

And whom have you trained with and for how long?

[t_niehoff]

So Duke Roufus is a liar? He recommended locking the arm and stated that his instructor does it as well. Elbows are illegal in most competitions in the U.S. so do you want to tell me that they are not Muay Thai too?

All you have to do is google "muay thai rules" and you can see that ALL muay thai rules do not permit joint locking.

BTW, many use the term "locking" to mean "hold firmly", i.e., to try to lock it in place, not as in "joint lock" which is used to break joints. For example, my MT instructor used to yell "lock it down" when we would get a side plumb with the arm in.

[HumbleWCGuy]

And I said I have been using that tech for years. So it looks like my views are in line with his.

What is in debate is using that lock as a finishing break/submission. Do you believe that is a valid finishing break/submission?

And whom have you trained with and for how long?
I have trained for over 20 years.

I have not claimed that that particular technique was for breaking. There is a threat of a break/hyperextension that helps hold the position.

[HumbleWCGuy]

All you have to do is google "muay thai rules" and you can see that ALL muay thai rules do not permit joint locking.

BTW, many use the term "locking" to mean "hold firmly", i.e., to try to lock it in place, not as in "joint lock" which is used to break joints. For example, my MT instructor used to yell "lock it down" when we would get a side plumb with the arm in.

So you are calling Duke a liar? Your analysis of joint locks is limited. Moreover, I don't really care about a MT class that you sat in on.

[Knifefighter]

I have trained for over 20 years. .
With whom did you receive your training and how long did you train with each of those instructors?


I have not claimed that that particular technique was for breaking. There is a threat of a break/hyperextension that helps hold the position.
OK, fine. We're on the same page with that.

[t_niehoff]

I have not claimed that that particular technique was for breaking. There is a threat of a break/hyperextension that helps hold the position.

You're not going to be able to do that standing -- you simply won't have the leverage and all he needs to do is slightly change the angle which is very easy to do when you are not on the gound.

[t_niehoff]

So you are calling Duke a liar? Your analysis of joint locks is limited. Moreover, I don't really care about a MT class that you sat in on.

I (and neither do you) don't know the context of his statement but I do know that the rules of MT prohibit it and that standing joint locks don't work. If you had spent some time training MT - as I have - you'd know that. And your whole argument wouldn't rest on "Duke".

[HumbleWCGuy]

I (and neither do you) don't know the context of his statement but I do know that the rules of MT prohibit it and that standing joint locks don't work. If you had spent some time training MT - as I have - you'd know that. And your whole argument wouldn't rest on "Duke".

Igor, your master has already spoken on the efficacy of the technique.

[Knifefighter]

Igor, your master has already spoken on the efficacy of the technique.

Once again, with whom did you train and for how long?

Seems like someone who questions other people's credentials should easily be able to supply that information.

[goju]

Once again, with whom did you train and for how long?

Seems like someone who questions other people's credentials should easily be able to supply that information.

kind of like how you ignored me when i asked what top level stand up fighters did you square off against?

[Knifefighter]

kind of like how you ignored me when i asked what top level stand up fighters did you square off against?

I'll answer that as soon as other people start answering my questions, one of which is which full-contact events have you fought in?

[goju]

I'll answer that as soon as other people start answering my questions, one of which is which full-contact events have you fought in?
so in other words you fought in amateur stand up matches and walk around like youre a stand up expert striker now right?

(shakes head)

[Knifefighter]

so in other words you fought in amateur stand up matches and walk around like youre a stand up expert striker now right?

(shakes head)

In other words, I have more stand up experience than both you and cluelessWCguy, including pro fights.

[Knifefighter]

In other words, you have never done an MMA, grappling, or stand- up competition in your life, yet you feel qualified to comment on those.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Once again, with whom did you train and for how long?

Seems like someone who questions other people's credentials should easily be able to supply that information.

Either you accept what I am saying or you don't. In many ways I prefer the latter.

[goju]

In other words, you have never done an MMA, grappling, or stand- up competition in your life, yet you feel qualified to comment on those.

no need to spazz out and double post dale

who did you fight again in stand up matches?

[Knifefighter]

no need to spazz out and double post dale

who did you fight again in stand up matches?

Like I said, you guys answer my questions. However, it's looking like the majority of both yours and CluessWCguy is mostly basement training and watching videos.

[goju]

Like I said, you guys answer my questions. However, it's looking like the majority of both yours and CluessWCguy is mostly basement training and watching videos.
and your stand up experience is based off of fighting low level amatuers:D

nothing wrong with that typically how ever i think it is in this case considering the ego you seem to have little buddy:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Like I said, you guys answer my questions. However, it's looking like the majority of both yours and CluessWCguy is mostly basement training and watching videos.

Fale,
And yet, you continue to back off of your challenge of Goju, and continue to put words in my mouth to make yourself seem correct.

[HumbleWCGuy]

In other words, I have more stand up experience than both you and cluelessWCguy, including pro fights.
The $50 prize offered for winning a smoker makes you a pro? Sure in the strictest sense, you are a professional striker.

[HumbleWCGuy]

and your stand up experience is based off of fighting low level amatuers:D

nothing wrong with that typically how ever i think it is in this case considering the ego you seem to have little buddy:D

Fale suffers from low selfesteem as does niehoff. They both have come to this board expecting to be worshiped. Instead, they are laughing stocks with gross misconceptions about WCK and TMA. Most posters just ignore the two of them because they have nothing to offer to the practice of WCK that isn't already well known and obvious.

[Knifefighter]

The $50 prize offered for winning a smoker makes you a pro? Sure in the strictest sense, you are a professional striker.

LOL... this coming from a guy with no actual training other than videos who fought a couple of garage-level kickboxing matches somewhere in the midwest 15 years ago.

[Knifefighter]

Fale suffers from low selfesteem as does niehoff. They both have come to this board expecting to be worshiped. Instead, they are laughing stocks with gross misconceptions about WCK and TMA. Most posters just ignore the two of them because they have nothing to offer to the practice of WCK that isn't already well known and obvious.

Actually, the laughing stocks are guys like you who get all ticked off when your theoretical non-fighting b.s. theories are exposed.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You're not going to be able to do that standing -- you simply won't have the leverage and all he needs to do is slightly change the angle which is very easy to do when you are not on the gound.

Some refer to these sort of locks as time-locks. Holding indefinitely isn't necessarily the plan. What you need to realize is that their is a whole big world of kickboxing outside of your 2 month stint in the beginners class at your local gym.

Also, if you had ever actually fought or worked as a trainer, you would know that different organizations, state, and countries have different rules that govern fights. Gyms train to the rules governing their organizations and localities. You need to learn that local competition rules don't dictate the totality of an art.

[Knifefighter]

Some refer to these sort of locks as time-locks. Holding indefinitely isn't necessarily the plan. What you need to realize is that their is a whole big world of kickboxing outside of your 2 month stint in the beginners class at your local gym.
Which kickboxing/MT events allow standing joint locks as finishes to fights?


Also, if you had ever actually fought or worked as a trainer, you would know that different organizations, state, and countries have different rules that govern fights. Gyms train to the rules governing their organizations and localities. You need to learn that local competition rules don't dictate the totality of an art.
-Which events have you fought in that have rules that allow standing locks to fininsh fights.
- Which events have you worked as a trainer/coach?


- And now for the easiest to be answered by anyone with actual, real credentials other than video, basement training:
With whom did you do your training and for how long?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Which kickboxing/MT events allow standing joint locks as finishes to fights?


-Which events have you fought in that have rules that allow standing locks to fininsh fights.
- Which events have you worked as a trainer/coach?


- And now for the easiest to be answered by anyone with actual, real credentials other than video, basement training:
With whom did you do your training and for how long?

Fale, why are you putting words in my mouth again? When I have I said finishing move? Quit acting like you are a pro-kickboxer because there was a $50 prize that you could have won at a smoker that you ultimately lost. Lets hear about your big credentials Ajarn Fale "NeverwasFighter" Franks.

[HumbleWCGuy]

- And now for the easiest to be answered by anyone with actual, real credentials other than video, basement training:
With whom did you do your training and for how long?

Fale, when you get a "big boy" job with health insurance and everything, you will understand why not to put personal identifiers out on the net.

[Knifefighter]

I can't list those because everything I have said are lies. My training background consists of a few lessons at a WC school and doing forms in my basement. My fighting background consists of my friends and I getting together with some boxing gloves and hitting each other. You'd be embarrassed too if you had as little actual experience in full contact settings as I do

Fixed that post there for ya to reflect reality.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Fixed that post there for ya to reflect reality.

Putting words in my mouth is the only way that you will be able to be correct over me concerning striking.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The funny thing about you Fale is that I know 3 basement trainers who I have helped out who have gone higher in mma than you ever will. One has been a league champion. The others are/were competing in national shows
while the "living Legend" Fale NeverWasFighter Frank continues to lay on the WC board to convince us of how tough he is.

[goju]

LOL... this coming from a guy with no actual training other than videos who fought a couple of garage-level kickboxing matches somewhere in the midwest 15 years ago.

what big name organizations and big name kick boxers did you fight dale?:D

[Lucas]

i fought fedor and cung le at the same time in a steel pit death match

[Lucas]

oh wait, im lying...

[anerlich]

Fale suffers from low selfesteem as does niehoff. They both have come to this board expecting to be worshiped. Instead, they are laughing stocks with gross misconceptions about WCK and TMA. Most posters just ignore the two of them because they have nothing to offer to the practice of WCK that isn't already well known and obvious.


1. Neither T or Dale appear to suffer from low self esteem. If anything, the reverse is closer to the truth.

2. Most posters are ignoring T, Dale, Goju and you because you are polluting the thread with this stupid four way d!ckmeasuring contest.

[goju]

1. Neither T or Dale appear to suffer from low self esteem. If anything, the reverse is closer to the truth.

2. Most posters are ignoring T, Dale, Goju and you because you are polluting the thread with this stupid four way d!ckmeasuring contest.
im not **** measuring im just trolling dale:D