The reason why many kung fu fighters fight like kickboxers

[Richie]

This has come up many times in my study and pactace of kungfu. I always wondered why some many KF guys learn a style and then fight like a kick boxer.

I think the main rason is that most people are afraid. I don't mean in the same sense as a coward. I mean that they don't trust their style. Here are a few points or causes of this:

1. Afraid that the a punch, block, or kick isn't effective.
2. Afraid of looking a little silly is a fighting stance.
3. The kick boxing fighting stance is a basic stance that seems to cover all weak spots, feels comfortable, and seems logical.
4. A poorly skilled and/or fake teacher.
5. Poor sparring training or lack of.

These are just a few reasons. There are others. The one thing that we must remember is that kung fu is very old. It has lasted a long time. Back in the old days, you proved your kung fu by fighting. Many times it was a fight to the death. These styles really work. If a guy flapped his arms like a crane or hopped around like a monkey just for show in those days, that style's legacy would stop there with his or her death. Forms and fighting techniques are the experience of the masters of by gone days. Remember that.
:mad:

[jjj]

Yeah it took me a while to develop faith in my Combat Tae Bo also...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Xebsball]

What do you mean Jedi?
If you think KF is like Tae Bo you must be blind.

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

[jjj]

Just kidding.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Xebsball]

Sorry, sometimes i just need to turn off my "spider instinct" automatic anti troll

:D

-------------------------
I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my shirt
I'm too sexy for your mother, too sexy for your mother
So sexy, YEAH

[grifter721]

why would you say that kf guys fight like kickboxers?
have you fought a lot of kf guys? I spar on a reg and I dont fight like one, maybe the guys you spar with dont know kf properly. People that I spar with in and out of my system dont fight like kickboxers....after all that would defeat the purpose of taking kf now wouldnt it.
KF Teachers are supposed to teach their stuidents san shou (free sparring) to get them to know how to use the kf.....
Oh and the kickboxers stance doesnt cover all weak points trust me :)

[Kung Lek]

richie, kung Fu people don't "kickbox", heck, that's just sport dude.

Kung fu people don't start fights either, they end them :)

I am only to happy to not be presented with the opportunity to use my style on the street.

i am even happier to know that its there if the opportunity does present itself.

Fat lot of good any of it does on the wrong side of a barrel of a gun though. it is the 21st century after all.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[SevenStar]

you can't be posting this with serious intent.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Kick Boxing is just as much a Sport as Tae Kwon Do and Judo.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[jameswebsteruk]

I have to admit, I know what hes saying.

Maybe its just viewing crappy schools, but I have seen loads of them with extended forms, formal 1-3 step sparring, sometimes with really good structure.

Then, as soon as they start sparring, it all goes out the window, and they hop about and kickbox each other. Seems that the sparring has no relation at all to any other part of the lesson.

And I even saw (and participated in) a wing chun sparring session like this. As soon as the gloves went on, they wanted to extend the distance, from close infighting range to kickboxing range, and didnt seem able to use any wingchun techniques. Hilarious.

Go figure, as you crazy Americans might say. ;)

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[Wongsifu]

the reason many kf guys fight like kickboxers is because they do point sparring and its much quicker to execute 3 jabs than it is to go from cat stance to front bow and arrow punch with a straight "karate style lunge punch" however i assure as soon as you drop the point sparring you realise those jabs dont do **** ...

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[scotty1]

We spar with gloves on. trouble is, with gloves on you can't do much except fight like a kickboxer - I wish we did trad sparring like in my old class.
Grifter - what were you saying about Sanshou, because I think that is effectively what our sparring is - albeit without the takedowns and other intricacies. (sp?)

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Have you ever been Jabbed in the nose?

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[apoweyn]

it isn't kickboxing. it's lackluster sparring.

when did kickboxing become a synonym for not knowing your stuff?


stuart b.

[jjj]

A good jab can hurt you. If you understand the mechanics of throwing a hard jab you can knock people down and out with it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Wongsifu]

yeah man being jabbed in the nose is no fun , but i would take it over being hit full power with a reverse punch any day :D

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[shaolinboxer]

Kung fu practitioners "degrade" to kickboxing because kickboxing is the most efficient way to strike, counter and block in the ring under standard standup rules. That's the origin of kickboxing, efficiency and success in the stand up ring.

If you want to see real kickboxing, try watching K1.

[wall]

I've trained and helped teach in schools in Italy, Hong Kong, China, Australia, with absoletule top masters and some excellent students, and invariably a good 80%+ reverted to...let's call it semi-KF (kickboxing should not be a sinonim for not knowing what to do)...as soon as the free sparring starts. Why? My conclusions are mixed:
1 - lack of practice of combat applications of techniques shown during non-sparring class - this I believe is the BIG reason
2 - difficulty in transition from one technique to the next due also to 1, thus reverting to standing up straight
3 - visual conditioning done by watching a lifetime of boxing kickboxing van damme scoolyard fights just about any fighting we are exposed to in our lives does not resemble KF fighting
4 - ?
Maybe it just comes more "genetically natural": just like if you had to throw a discus or weight it would not come natural to do all the spins etc, you would just pull your arm back and trow. But that does not mean that what comes natural is best: once you learn the spins, you perfect them, and you MAKE them natural, your discus will go much further.

Wall

[scotty1]

Again I would say that if you're putting gloves on to spar then there's not really much point in trying to do Kungfu is there? When we spar at the end of a class, and everyone else puts fu(king 12oz gloves on there's not much you can do except try and use the principles of combat you learn in your kungfu training and apply them with a few basic moves. Not much else I think you can do, like I say, with your hands covered.

[Mr. Nemo]

I don't think gloves are the problem, though I would prefer to spar without them (or using only wrist wrap or vale tudo type gloves). I think wall's reasons are good.

Another reason is that a lot of schools just don't teach kung fu to fight. They don't even try to use kung fu when they spar, they just do something that resembles bad kickboxing.

In my experience, kung fu used to fight looks more or less how you'd expect it to - recognizable movements from the forms and basics - they just look sloppy because they're happening against a live opponent.

Kung fu can be used in the ring.

[Shaolin36]

I have to agree with walls no.1 reason.
Many schools I have watch train specifiacally in forms and cardio/stretching- This will amount to a lack of combat applications and meshing your attacks so they flow one after another. The school I train concentrates on techniques/ combinations and using your footwork to close the gap. Event the new students are able to use some techniques that are related to the art(maybe not proficiently) but still they are able.
Another usefull tool is visualization. When doing techniques in class, visualizing someone attacking you will definately help.

[Jaguar Wong]

Ap Owyen,
I think I started using that label after I learned you did kick boxing.

[hidden crowd of people all at the same time]
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! BURN! :p

Actually, I hear all this talk about how we resort to kick boxing when we're in a sparring situation. I for one do my best not to do that, but not because some uppity kung fu guys think it's wrong, I do it because I'm trying to use everything I know without having to think so much about it. I'm trying to make things happen naturally and that doesn't happen if I'm dancing outside of any effective striking range, fearing the other guys "floating tip-tap" roundhouse.

Bottom line, the reason people resort to sloppy techniques is fear. Fear of the unknown to be more exact. If you're squared up with your partner/opponent, and you dance outside of the effective range of anything short of thrown weapons, then you've obviously got to calm yourself, focus your mind, and bridge the gap, or at least set up a defense and make them commit. Don't dance around whipping "tags" at their outer gates trying to get a reaction.

I personally had a hard time getting into close range to use more effective weapons like knees and elbows, because I was very weak there, so I always kept the opponent at the outer gates. But after developing better trapping range skills, I move in all the time (I've got a few "Gate crasher" techniques that I like), but now with the addition of ground fighting and takedowns, I had a whole new obsticle to overcome, and again, I found myself putting the distance I needed to see a huge lunging takedown attempt.

But again after learning more about takedowns (both how to stop them, and how to do them), as well as defending/escaping and applying submissions, I found myself once again, pressing the attack, and utilizing more techniques.

If a Kung Fu guy is knowledgable enough about different ranges, and techniques, they will be more inclined to set the pace of the battle. I used to spar with a Choy Lay Fut/Hung Gar instructor, and he always used long range strikes to bust down the doors, and then just punish me on the inside with his Hung Gar. It's because he wasn't afraid of the barrage of "point scorring" roundhouse kicks that I was flicking at him.

I learned a lot from the guys that I spar with. We don't do light contact continuous, or point sparring. We use heavy contact, continuous sparring with all ranges allowed. It really lets you learn your style better. If we used a jab, or a back fist, it's not to score points it's used to set up the offense. If one person is dancing around trying to outscore the opponent with ranged kicks, then the other person will generally corner the guy, and again press the attack. The point fighter techniques dissappear quickly after someone spars with us for a little while. It's just not kung fu or kick boxing, and it just don't work.

I've also been accused of resorting to "non kung fu" techniques, but the guys that say that (guys from my own school, can you imagine that? :)) generally don't spar, and when they do, I find them backpeddaling from the other guy, which I don't think they learned in kung fu. The stuff I do I learned in Kung Fu, I never studied boxing, Muay Thai, Savate, JKD, Judo (I do, however study a bit of BJJ and wrestling), or anything like that, so I don't think I deserve to say that the techniques that I use come from those styles. They share similarities, but I learned how to use them better by sparring with others from different styles.

Sorry I was so long winded. I just wanted to share my perspective on the subject. This is an important situation that should be dealt with, but not by abolishing all such tecniques. Just teach the guys how to use their style better. I don't mean how to look right, just how to relax and focus more by exposing them to the full range/scope of fighting. That way they don't fear the unknown. And for God Sake, let them see what it's like to take a hit, and keep fighting. No one wants to get hit, but the guy that thinks he can win a fight without taking a shot or two is the same guy that thinks he can disarm a knife fighter without getting cut. It may happen, it may not. The important thing is to see that if you take a shot, and are still standing, then keep fighting.

Jaguar Wong

[apoweyn]

Jaguar,

How dare you?!! [smirk]

Nicely said, by the way.


Stuart

[grifter721]

"Grifter - what were you saying about Sanshou, because I think that is effectively what our sparring is - albeit without the takedowns and other intricacies"

My sifu teaches my partner and I a bunch of different rounds he called san shou. San shou in chinese means free sparring or something along those lines...Sometimes it is a bit hard to understand exactly what he is trying to convey though but he did say san shou is just free sparring, and in some of them actually in a lot of them we have takedowns and throws. Anyway the rounds teach us to use the kf properly.
Then on our own we spar with differnt people to get the feel of kung fu.

[fa_jing]

1. Afraid to engage, due to fear of getting hit. This is 100% natural, the only way to overcome it is to take a few. When, it's over, you realize you're still alive, it gives you perspective. I like getting hit when sparring anyway, it's the only way I really wake up.

2. Sloppiness due to being in a combative situation, and/or fatigue. This sloppiness looks the the lack of form in kick boxing.

3. Gloves prevent maximum effectiveness of certain techniques. However, one should strive to modify the technique so as to use with the gloves, rather than discard the technique. It may not look pretty, but at least you are practicing the technique, at least you have it in your mind. You wouldn't want to fight in a kickboxing competition this way, but if your goal is effectiveness in a bare-knuckle situation, you should spar this way.

Just my 2 cents.
-FJ

[soy]

Whoa, looks like someone just learned how to make a generalization. Good work? Augh.

[BeiTangLang]

Tournaments that disallow using real technique are the main cluprit in schools that attend them. Shooting for points is why. Yet another reason is the instructors lack of knowledge in their art. They show a form,...even sometimes applications, but then the sparring begins, they all put on the pads & teach totaly diferent technique. Go figure.
This is a very good reason to not let begining students spar. They will revert to something other than their current training because it is not familiar yet & they do not trust in their training.
I have seen several schools claim to be "this" or "that" & "lineage holders" etc.,...but later after speaking with them; "well,..we integated some of "x","y" & "z" into our sparring." (Boot to the head!)
Oh well,....where was I again?? LOL!
~BTL

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[Knifefighter]

Kung fu can be used in the ring.
====================================

Nemo- what's your rationale for that? Have you seen it used successfully in the ring? If so, how did it look differently than Muay Thai or kickboxing?

[Water Dragon]

It actually looks quite a bit like Muay Thai in the ring. Looks like boxing too, just not so snappy.

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Braden]

KF - it's hard to generalize concerning such a wide variety of styles as contained in the term 'kungfu.'

Based upon my understanding in my style, I would note several differences between a competent practitioner in it and kickboxing.

A kickboxer generally tries to maintain range, while a kungfu stylist should be continually closing. A muay thai stylist who strongly emphasizes flowing directly into the clinch would be an example of this, although in kungfu there are a wider variety of methods for this than could be observed in this case.

Kickboxers do not emphasize angling or taking the outside doors the way my style does. For example, I only see inside clinches in muay thai matches. This is related to the former in that angling facilitates closing via defenses and attacks that intersect the momentum of the opponent (like a boxer 'slipping' or a proper foil fencer's 'en garde' deflecting a straight-on thrust) rather than interrupt it (like most blocks and attacks in boxing and kickboxing - the momentum is stopped and there is a puntuated rythm).

Kickboxers also do not emphasize opponent control. Defense and offense seems to be segregated. You block, attack. Contact is a mechanism to stop the opponents attack. Conversely, a competent kungfu practitioner of my style sees contact as a 'bridge' to the opponents center. Defense and offense is combined. If we touch, it is an opportunity for me to push or pull, twist, deflect, or offbalance you; to misalign your shoulders and hips so your posture is weak. I do not try to out-box you, I try to break your posture, then hit you, or step completely off the angles you can attack me from, and hit you from there.

Essentially, good kungfu to me is a hybrid of grappling and striking - not in the sense that a boxer who cross-trains in jiujutsu is, but in the sense that it's techniques are neither 'striking' nor 'grappling' but rather their ******* child.

The empty-hand kali I have seen looks closer to my understanding of kungfu than anything else I have seen, although it clearly lacks the internal structure and coiling mechanic which forms the foundation of, and is the most important component of, my style.

[BAI HE]

Good stuff Braden.

[Braden]

More...

Kungfu guys of my style should also move their body as a complete unit, rather than in component parts. It's hard to describe this stuff in words, since it no doubt results in inappropriate conclusions being drawn. But for example, if we are facing each other and you throw a low hook to my kidney/floating rib area, I will not drop my hand to 'slap' it away or 'block' it; but rather will lower my arm with an angle made by the elbow, and literally step my entire body to intersect your strike, although with skill the stepping becomes very small (and in many cases is replaced by comparable mechanics such as weight dropping).

Also, a kungfu fighter should fight more like Sak than Silva. If somehow you could make the opponent of these two fighters suddenly vanish right when he's about to recieve their attack, Silva would generally fall on his ass, whereas Sak generally wouldn't. (Or so it seems to me) The skill involved here is being able to attack someone with the momentum of your body without giving them your center.

If you're interested in this stuff, you should pick up a book called 'effortless combat throws' by Tim Cartmell (www.plumflower.com (http://www.plumflower.com)) which covers the basic physical principles of the internal arts in a way which anyone can understand and apply to their martial knowledge if they work it out.

[LEGEND]

braden...u have any links that can show this in video???

A

[les paul]

Just thought I'd pass this along.


Some time ago I had a student come over from a Northern Shaolin kwoon and he sparred just like he was kick boxing. Ive since seen a class in progress and I can see why they do it. (most of the reasons were stated already)

Many of the applications in CMA are not suited for point sparring.

An idea came to me after visiting a Koi-Kan Karate dojo. They sparred in heavy type Kendo armour and this allowed them to really go at each other in ways not usally allowed in point of full contact fighting. (head butts, elbow cranks, hard sweeps, flips etc etc you name it, they were doing it in this armor!)

They really kick the crap out of each other and since they were wearing this heavy armor, they could do it night after night.(a big bonus!!)

The armor was light enouph to grapple in as well.
(which they did almost evey chance they could got)

I think this armor idea is a great thing and have adapted it to my Xingyiquan classes. With a padded floor one is really able to punish an opponent who is not rooted(i.e up on the balls of his feet) It's a very un-kick boxing way of sparring and greatly helps people learning non-western boxing type techniques.


Try it some time.

[LEGEND]

Sounds like the old jkd sparring. Bruce adapted kendo gear into his workout!

A

[Braden]

Not really. Unfortunately, good kungfu is very rare, and the internet isn't an ideal resource. Mr. Cartmell's book is excellent, and there is a good companion video also available, but it isn't free and is instructional rather than for demonstration.

If you haven't seen them yet, there's some interesting clips at both www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com) and www.shenwu.com (http://www.shenwu.com) done by people who have proven their stuff in the ring.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

braden you do a better job at quoting my teacher than i do . ...

and we arent even in the same style.

where's my beer?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

should be continually closing . ..

sees contact as a 'bridge' to the opponents center. Defense and offense is combined. If we touch, it is an opportunity for me to push or pull, twist, deflect, or offbalance you; to misalign your shoulders and hips so your posture is weak. I do not try to out-box you, I try to break your posture, then hit you, or step completely off the angles you can attack me from, and hit you from there. Essentially, good kungfu to me is a hybrid of grappling and striking - not in the sense that a boxer who cross-trains in jiujutsu is, but in the sense that it's techniques are neither 'striking' nor 'grappling' but rather their ******* child.
should also move their body as a complete unit . . and literally step my entire body to intersect your strike . .

The skill involved here is being able to attack someone with the momentum of your body without giving them your center. . . .

all stuff i have heard my sifu say in different words but never seem to be able to put into text as well off the top of my head . .. good stuff man

where's my beer?

[Daredevil]

Braden, you're right on the money.

Thought there's great variety in the styles called "kung fu", those are principles that more than a few share and which at least in my mind constitute "fighting with kung fu".

It's very much different from kickboxing (I'm using the term loosely here), which uses arms as separated units from the body, which blocks then attacks instead of using attack and defense as one, which plays tag with the other guy instead of each technique flowing into the next without slipping out of contact.

[scotty1]

Important distinction made in the previous post. Even if you've got gloves on and you're jabbing and crossing, if you're not breaking contact, bridging the gap and pressing your advantage you would be using Kung Fu, whereas if you're dancing around playing point "tag" with your opponent then you are not using Kungfu. Would that be fair to say? That's the impression I'm getting from these posts. The difference between trying to out-box your opponent and trying to break their centre.

[Shaolindynasty]

The way my Sifu explains it is that you should be like a tank and just roll over your opponent counter when nessacary and immobilize(throw or lock) as soon as possible. Unlike kickboxing where they go back and forth tradeing blows. While you "roll" over your opponent you should have focus and not just throw haymakers. Our Kungfu fighting is fast continuous and focused. In real Kungfu fighting I don't think there is much of "feeling each other out" either. In kickboxing they don't really defend the same either alot of KF styles make heavy use of the forearm in defense while kickboxers usually just cover up.

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Braden]

ttt

[Tigerstyle]

"Not much else I think you can do, like I say, with your hands covered."

I disagree with that, although I do think there is a very strong tendency to throw lots of punches and forget other things when wearing big ol' gloves. Kung Fu doesn't just begin and end with the hands.

Feet/legs can kick, trip/sweep, jam, push, pull, etc. Hips (yours and your opponents) are very important in controlling when in close (you're not wearing gloves on your hips, are you? ;) ). Shoulders, elbows, forearms, head, knees, feet, hips can all be used to strike/control. Grabbing is tougher, but it's not like your hands are completely gone either.

It's tough to override "punch mode" when you're wearing gloves, but it can be done. (For the record, I still cannot override "punch mode", so you can apply the whole "grain of salt" thing to my advice if you like :) .)