FOOTWORK

[grifter721]

How does everyone here train their footwork.
7 Stars footwork is extremely serious, and I am sure other mantis sytems footwork is just as.
I train many differnt forms where the footwork is good, such as Lightning Attack , along with some innovative stuff.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I teach 8 step which is a hybrid style of 7* with much more effective footwork.
It is the footwork that our system is based around and named after. It depends on what your looking for but a lot of times I have my students put their arms behind thier back and close their eyes as they do their sets to work on balance. We also use our 8 long and 8 short steps to move around our opponent without the use of hands to instill maxium weight shifting when moving, both excersises help you concentrate on the lower body and show you how important proper footwork can be.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[yingching]

Just curious about the statement about 8 step footwork being more effective than 7 star.
Could you elaborate on this?

[Kiasyd]

I'm also curious to know how better is 8 step footwork than 7 star footwork. ;)

-- Kiasyd

[Waidan]

I had heard that 8-step's footwork was derived from baguazhang...any truth to that? If so, what liniage?

[HKMantis]

Earth Dragon

I must also jump on the band wagon and ask about the 8 long and the 8 short. As I am not familar with these terms, can you please explain what they are?

Grifter

We focus on the 7* stepping patterns individually and as they relate to the various drills that Sifu has us go through. Lately it been as counters to various attacks.(Kicks or punches)

Steve

[baldmantiz]

8 step footwork is indeed derived from ba qua...but im not sure what lineage

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

[grifter721]

Yeah that is somewhat like on of my exercises I move as close to my gf as possible and move around her trying to get the most advantageous positions quickly.

8 step footwork is good but at the same time it is simpler, after all the founder found that the footwork of 7 star was too much work into old age...

[Waidan]

Baldmantiz,

Is the rear foot 100% weighted (forward foot is empty)in most stances? Are the step names the same as bagua (ie ko-bu, bai-bu)? Also, do the feet typically slide when stepping, keeping the ball and heel level, or do you step down with the heel of the foot first?

Sorry for all the questions. I practice Cheng style bagua, and have a lot of interest in related arts.

[Shaolin Master]

Grifter said ""8 step footwork is good but at the same time it is simpler, after all the founder found that the footwork of 7 star was too much work into old age... ""

Hehehehehe :-)

[EARTH DRAGON]

To uphold his responsibility as Grandmaster of the style, Chiang Hua Long could never be short sighted. The very energetic jumping style of the monkey footwork was very effective but it required a great deal of energy. Chiang Hua Long realized that if he were to live up to his obligations he would have to maintain his fighting abilities well into his old age. He would have to create a new system of footwork that would use energy efficiently but also maintain the Mantis devastating effectiveness. Changing the Mantis system was not to be taken lightly, but as Grandmaster he was responsible for strengthening any weaknesses.

Being well respected by the masters of the martial arts throughout China, Chiang Hua Long was in an advantageous position. Traveling throughout China, Chiang Hua Long met with masters of many styles. To have such a man as Chiang Hua Long ask about their techniques was a great honor. The masters of martial art's most effective systems openly shared their techniques and secrets with him. Chiang Hua Long studied the footwork of many styles such as Bagua and Tom Pei. He spent a great deal of time studying and experimenting with each movement. Having an incredible amount of experience applying his skills, Chiang Hua Long knew what would be an improvement and what would simply be change. Very carefully he considered each technique until, after ten years, he had narrowed down the most effective to eight short and eight long steps. Chiang Hua Long had taken one of the very most effective fighting systems in the world and was able to improve it. The Eight Step Praying Mantis system had been born.

this is why 8 step's footwork is better than 7*

HKmantis you wanted to know about the 8 short and the 8 long here they are
BA BU – ( LONG LEAPING STEP ) FLYING FOOTWORK
CHUANG BU – ( LONG STEP ) AT AN ANGLE
DAI BU - ( CROSS STEP ) SIDEWAYS
RU WAN BU – ( FAKE STEP ) IN ONE DIRECTION MOVE ANOTHER
NOU BU – ( CIRCULAR STEP ) SIDEWAYS CIRCULAR FAKING MOTION
CUAN TA BU – ( JUMPING DODGING STEP ) EVADING A PUNCH
XIN BU – ( RETREATING STEP ) ZIG ZAG SKIP BACKWARD
TUO BU – ( FORWARD STEP ) FOLLOW WITH SAME FOOT

BA CHING BU ( 8 SHORT STEPS )
HEN YE BU – ( SIDE STEP ) DEFENSIVE STEP TO AVOID A PUNCH
SU JIAO BU – ( TRIANGLE STEP ) 3 PART FORWARD STEP MOTION
FANG XING BU –( SQUARE STEP ) DODGING FORWARD & BACKWARD
MEI HUA BU – ( FIVE CORNER STEP ) STEP AROUND OPPONENT
LIU XING BU – (TWO TRIANGLE STEP) POINTED OPPOSITE DIRECTION
QI XING BU – ( 7 STAR STEP ) FORWARD TRIANGLE
ZOU ZHAN BU – ( 3 STEP ) FOLLOW FOOT 3 STEP FORWARD & BACK
BA GUA BU – ( 8 CHANGING STEP) TURNING IN A CIRCULAR FASHION

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kiasyd]

Cool history, But it only shows that Grandmaster Chiang Hua Long improved his own technique, not that his new system is better than the previous one.

That's what I think anyway... But you can convince me of the contrary with a good argumentation. :)

-- Kiasyd

[yingching]

Exactly how did he test the effectiveness? Just because he said it was better really doesn't mean anything. It's great that it worked better for him, don't get me wrong.
Also, what did he do with the rest of the Seven Star System, did he think that none of it was worth passing on? :)

[grifter721]

that "Grandmaster Chiang Hua Long improved his own technique, not that his new system is better than the previous one."

I agree with you Kiasyd

[bamboo_ leaf]

Just wondering, what makes up the 7* system?
Who here knows it?
How much of it do you have to have before you can say you know the 7* system?

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[EARTH DRAGON]

All of you have good points, but everything ststem has strengths and weaknesses. One of these weaknesses was in the 7* footwork, It could be improved so he improved it not just for him but for everyone so after many many years of trail and error he realized that by adding a strength of another system you could greatly improve an exsisting system ....7*.
We still have the hands of 7* but with superior footwork, which the system is named after ba bu, not saying that my system is better than your system thing, just that its hybrid for fighting and allowing you to move in and around your opponnet morequicker and more efficeintly.

If you have expericenced the jumping footwork of the monkey in 7* at master level and compared it to ba gua of 8 step you could clearly see the difference, Not that any of use will ever get close to that level, so I'll just take their word for it! LOL

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kiasyd]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Just wondering, what makes up the 7* system?
Who here knows it?
How much of it do you have to have before you can say you know the 7* system?
[/quote]
Bamboo_Leaf,

I'm just a begginer, and in fact, I don't know nothing about 7 star PM (or any other system, for that matter... :) ). That's exactly why I asked our friend Earth Dragon, why exactly 8 step footwork is better than 7 star footwork... I'm curious, and I'm trying to learn. :)

Earth Dragon:

If you're saying that 8 step system have the same handwork of 7 star, and 8 step footwork is better, then you're saying that 8 step is better than 7 star ;)

Or maybe, I'm just too dumb to understand :D

-- Kiasyd

[yingching]

What was Josi Wong Long Thinking when he added the footwork of the monkey?

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am saying that 8 step is superior,in terms of footwork.
As far as hands they are equal but I do like the shuai chaio and chin na that also has been added to our system to give it a well rounded feel. Please read the history on our web site for a complete understanding of 8 step to help you with some questions that may pop up.
thnax

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[grifter721]

Seven star has a lot of joint locks in the system,

[Nutt'nhunny]

Don't tell my Sifu about seven star. We love seven star. We thank our predecesors...all of them. More was build over the top of it. So...yes its better. Deal with it. Sorry Sifu, I havent been in for a few months, my knees are healing up, I'll be in as soon as I can.

[Shaolin Master]

nothing is superior, only different.

That the 8 step founder personally favoured those methods is likely. That they are superior is contextual.

Not understanding the depth of 7 star, and limiting to a set series of footwork is what is then a problem with whoever proclaimed 8 step is something superior.

the older tanglang when "properly" understood has footwork that is so pliable that it becomes anything and everything.

grappling throwing and the rest is all there. Only limitation is a students or teachers understanding.

Regards
Bai Long Fei

[Kiasyd]

I checked your site, and the history of your systems is a nice history. This information, probably is a evidence that your grand-master, the founder of 8 step PM was a great martial artist, but I don't think that this history shows that the 8 step system is better, or more effective than 7 star system.

But, of course, I can be wrong. I would like to hear the opinion of some 7 star practicioners who sparred or trained 8 step.

-- Kiasyd

[EARTH DRAGON]

nothing is superior, only different
So what your saying is that every style is different but not better? this is kind of a broad statement is'nt it?
I would think that if someone devoted their life to grandmastery and carefully examend a system to improve on its weaknesses and then changed them , the end result would be "improved" not just "different". Different would mean that it was changed but stayed equal in terms of effectiveness, supeiror means better or improved. I know that after many years even among 7* masters they realized that chiang hua long's new footwork was better for fighting becuse of the effeicentcy in movement in combat. This is not only my opinon but that of many masters throughout china.
understanding the depths of any system would take a lifetime of devotion that neither you nor I have so I will take the word of someone who has devoted that time.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Shaolin Master]

hehe...
Who are you?
then you'll understand.

ie...a person without certain qualities may find certain methods more adept than others....
All arts are the same as they rely on the practitioner.

Your footwork maybe great (note "your opinion") but you may be incapable in using it comparative to someone who is adept in their 7* and the like.

All styles are but leaves and branches of the same essence, but each person is but a another human living and dying all at once. Unfortunately certain natural adepts mean "we must conform to nature" and it is this nature which rules the methodology in whatever we achieve..

[EARTH DRAGON]

huh?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[BeiTangLang]

I think what he was saying is;
If you cannot perform one set of footwork to your own satisfaction or prefficiency in combat, you make one or use one that you can use very well.
There are several moves/actions that I will never be able to do well or ever use. I am not & probrably never will be at a level that I will change those actions in forms & create something new, but the 8-step master was & did.
8-step being different from 7-star does not make it better, just better for some.
Best wishes,
BTL

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknow

[EARTH DRAGON]

I guess the way I look at it is if you have something that works well but you can change something that makes it work better you have improved it!
aluminum piping works well for drains but yet people choose PVC why..... not cause its different but becuse its better. not to compare kung fu to plumming but by switching more effective footwork with a system that has less effective footwork in my opinon it would make it better not just different.
Its all in matter trial and error but their had to be a reason for chiang hua long to spend so much time analizing the footwork of the 7* system. All the years he spent was not to simply make it different but improve it or otherwise it would be a waste of time and why bother to fix something thats not broke?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[BeiTangLang]

"in my opinion..."
There you have it.
BTW, I do agree that the footwork is very efficient....I have to say that for those enrgetic & light footed, the 7* footwork is also very effective with the system. I cannot however agree that one is totaly more effective than the other....specialy when a 7*step is actually called out in the 8-step system of steps.

Best wishes,
BTL

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[This message was edited by BeiTangLang on 10-29-01 at 09:16 PM.]

[Shaolin Master]

:)

[yin lion]

no art is better is strange because if an art is not concerned with what is natural than how can it be even an equal to an art that seeks naturalness. for it is better to walk on your feet than your hands bagua the steeping methods that were incoperated into the 8 step system are the most natural way to do the desired movement; so how can all other none natural seeking arts even compair to one that is just more natural and easer flowing? some (people) I think would find low stanced none effective even if they are done in the most natural way only because they are for example unnaturaly fat, then it's not the moves are not ineffective but the persons body that is. there is always a more natural way to do something unless your doing it in the most natural way, right? :eek:

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

[BeiTangLang]

All other arts are inorrect because they do not use the same footwork?

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[Tainan Mantis]

grifter721,

Back to your original question on how we train footwork.

We have 2 types of basic exercises. The first one deals with flow type drills for hand techniques, similar to Pai -An. The student learns stationary then how to advance and retreatwith different types of steps that you find in your forms.

The other type of exercise deals with how to move your foot into your opponents territory for a takedown.
In these exercises you get to practice the takedown. I would say it is a cross between arm pounding and simple shuai jiao. They are simpler to do than the first type of exercise.

After the student has reached a certain level of skill with the first exercise they add the techniques from the second. This is how we incorporate takedowns with hand drills.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I have noticed as tainan mantis said that when stepping into lets say a crossing leg stance to perform sobei if your feet are not in your opponents space it requires you to use muscle to throw your opponent which is wrong, howver if your footwork is correct then you simply turn and your opponent is thrown. I have never seen effeicent foot work like that in any other system of kung fu except ba gua. Maybe I havent seen every style foot work but in my years I have seen a lot. And to be honest 8 steps is the best, that may sound biased becuse thats my system but I did come from japanese arts that have limited footwork compared to chinese arts.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[BeiTangLang]

Just curious.
The reason I ask is, most of the applications in the forms that I have seen, a cross-legged stances are vehicles for breaking something in conjunction with the hand techniques.
BTL

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[nobody]

"8 step footwork is more effective then 7*" maybe the word we are all looking for is not "effective" but "efficient".

[EARTH DRAGON]

So bei is a throw in 8 step from shuai chaio sometimes called "touch knee" where you step into your opponents space as you cross one leg behind your other, while grabbing your opoonents root then either slap the knee on the side which takes out their foundation or if they block low you can bring your arm up under the chin and throw by the neck. It is one of my favorite throws becuse it cannot be stoped, if your opponent blocks low you go high if he goes high you can go low so either way you can execute the throw and If you hold on the the root you can easily dislocate the shoulder or compound fracture the elbow and radius bone.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[BeiTangLang]

Sounds like a fun technique. O.K.,..now what system does this with the crossed leg stance?

"In the name of peace, destroy your enemies!"-Unknown

[EARTH DRAGON]

ba bu tang lang (8 step praying mantis) the throws are from shaui chiao which is where our 40 throws comes from the crossing leg stance is from ba gua so I would imagine many systems have a variation of it.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net