essence of an art

[Hendrik]

Lately, I come across a few friends who learn a few sets and a few applicatoins moves and to them that is WCK.


Let's face it the essence of an art is not the form nor it is the sets nor it is a certain application moves.

the essence of an art is something alive. Something after one did a training for thousand of days it will show up within any form or shape or applications one perform. One cannot mimic it, one has to have that training or Kung fu to shown it under static and dynamic condition.



For decades, some believe, go take a seminal, learn some forms, some moves, some applications, some secrets, some kuits,... those are learning WC.

if those are the ultimate then why the ancient call their art Kung Fu which means time and experience.


I have seen people who chase and fight to learn certain set of forms. In their view, knowing the form is a must, knowing the secret form give one power give one advance ability. are those real? Nope, for me, those most of the time got nothing to do with Kung fu at all and how can one think one got higher power just learning that?


In my understanding, every set /form I was taugh in my lineage of WCK has a theme. When one knows that theme and have good execution on that theme, one then know the essence of that set /form. But then one doesnt have to do that set to apply the theme because the essence after one got it and have it within themself, it will show in every act one makes.


Things goes as foundamental as lower abdoment breathing.

contracting and exercising the lower abdoment for a few mins or while doing a set or demonstration doesnt mean one know the essence of lower abdorment breathing.

However, once one put years of training and arive to the essence of the lower abdoment breathing and having the real kung fu. In every breathing one is using lower abdoment breathing naturally when one evokes it. And at that state one will benifit from the kung fu.



These days' people are so concern about getting take down or grap or lock...etc. Those concern certainly is legit and real. for if the grapper know the essence of his/her art, s/he is sure going to use it by nature.

However, my concern is not about being take down or grap because I am not a grapper, but do I really know how to stand and move balance-ly or response stable-ly when I was attemp to be taken down... See, that call for knowing the essence of standing and moving. without knowing that means no kung fu and it means one cant even stand or move, thus, how can one handle someone who attemp different thing on one?



What is the essence of the art call WCK? do we know? or we have forgoten? or we have never learn? Those are the questions to night.



what do you think?

[t_niehoff]

In my understanding, every set /form I was taugh in my lineage of WCK has a theme. When one knows that theme and have good execution on that theme, one then know the essence of that set /form. But then one doesnt have to do that set to apply the theme because the essence after one got it and have it within themself, it will show in every act one makes.

What is the essence of the art call WCK? do we know? or we have forgoten? or we have never learn? Those are the questions to night.

what do you think?

Hendrik, I agree that both WCK has a "theme" (method) and that so do the forms/sets.

Those themes have to do with application (fighting), not things like abdominal breathing.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Lately, I come across a few friends who learn a few sets and a few applicatoins moves and to them that is WCK.


Let's face it the essence of an art is not the form nor it is the sets nor it is a certain application moves.

the essence of an art is something alive. Something after one did a training for thousand of days it will show up within any form or shape or applications one perform. One cannot mimic it, one has to have that training or Kung fu to shown it under static and dynamic condition.



For decades, some believe, go take a seminal, learn some forms, some moves, some applications, some secrets, some kuits,... those are learning WC.

if those are the ultimate then why the ancient call their art Kung Fu which means time and experience.


I have seen people who chase and fight to learn certain set of forms. In their view, knowing the form is a must, knowing the secret form give one power give one advance ability. are those real? Nope, for me, those most of the time got nothing to do with Kung fu at all and how can one think one got higher power just learning that?


In my understanding, every set /form I was taugh in my lineage of WCK has a theme. When one knows that theme and have good execution on that theme, one then know the essence of that set /form. But then one doesnt have to do that set to apply the theme because the essence after one got it and have it within themself, it will show in every act one makes.


Things goes as foundamental as lower abdoment breathing.

contracting and exercising the lower abdoment for a few mins or while doing a set or demonstration doesnt mean one know the essence of lower abdorment breathing.

However, once one put years of training and arive to the essence of the lower abdoment breathing and having the real kung fu. In every breathing one is using lower abdoment breathing naturally when one evokes it. And at that state one will benifit from the kung fu.



These days' people are so concern about getting take down or grap or lock...etc. Those concern certainly is legit and real. for if the grapper know the essence of his/her art, s/he is sure going to use it by nature.

However, my concern is not about being take down or grap because I am not a grapper, but do I really know how to stand and move balance-ly or response stable-ly when I was attemp to be taken down... See, that call for knowing the essence of standing and moving. without knowing that means no kung fu and it means one cant even stand or move, thus, how can one handle someone who attemp different thing on one?



What is the essence of the art call WCK? do we know? or we have forgoten? or we have never learn? Those are the questions to night.



what do you think?



Hendrik, this is what I once told you, but you probably did not understand me or I did not understand you. Practice and training is what makes us perfect. In every phase of our training, which includes our breathing I guess. Breathing is the easiest thing we do. We do it naturally and without effort. However, it can be the most difficult thing to do properly 100% of the time. Under stress we might tend to alter our breathing somewhat, when we should try to stick with what we train. I spent a lot of hours working on my technique applications. Also in my breathing applications. My teacher was a master in the eyes of many, and he knew his stuff. He not only taught his children, but his job, or part of it for 40 years was teaching Hung Fa to others.
In order to flow, or to do these things naturally, you have to make it a second nature by training and practicing it continually until it does become part of your nature. period. This to me is kung fu.
I have not trained as such in many years now, but I can still apply technique in a flawless manner. I might be getting old, but nothing I ever learned depended strictly upon my youth and physical abilities. I will still be able to apply technique flawlessly in another 15 years should I live so long. I am not foolish enough to think I am still the man I was 30 years ago, but I can still surprise the heck out of someone today.

LCP

[LoneTiger108]

In order to flow, or to do these things naturally, you have to make it a second nature by training and practicing it continually until it does become part of your nature. period. This to me is kung fu.

This I agree with 100%. But I guess it's not just training and practising in any manner, there is structure and progression IMO, and that also has to be natural.

Is this the essence of Wing Chun? Somehow I think it has to be a little more complex, but I do tend to over think things!

[Dragonzbane76]

These days' people are so concern about getting take down or grap or lock...etc. Those concern certainly is legit and real. for if the grapper know the essence of his/her art, s/he is sure going to use it by nature.

However, my concern is not about being take down or grap because I am not a grapper, but do I really know how to stand and move balance-ly or response stable-ly when I was attemp to be taken down... See, that call for knowing the essence of standing and moving. without knowing that means no kung fu and it means one cant even stand or move, thus, how can one handle someone who attemp different thing on one?

not sure if i understand you or not here. Not trying to offend.

so, how can you not be concerned with the take down? you stated that if the grappler knows the essence of he/she art then they will use it. So the essence of grappling is take down to submission or choke/break. it's the methodology behind it, simplisity in nature to take away the striking of the striker. that's what makes it so effective because it is simple.

My beliefs are that you should learn all area's and not dismiss one because you think you have solved the "problem" of take downs or whatever. you cannot solve the problem of take downs. To counter it you have to learn what it is to grapple and clinch. I hear people say that all the time, "i'm not a grappler, so i focus on stand up" just not a smart philosophy imo. there is no stance that can save you from the take down. If someone is good enough they will take you down plain and simple. So the safest bet in my book is to learn the grapplers game and have the back up of knowledge to help you if it ever happens.

don't know if that is what you were asking. but your sentence structure is a little off. didn't mean to offend if any was taken. :)

[punchdrunk]

interesting thoughts.. the essence probably changes from person to person and moment to moment. It is something to reflect on, but ultimately will change as nature dictates. TO some it is an art, to others a skill, to still others it is just physical exercise. There is room for all.

[stonecrusher69]

Lately, I come across a few friends who learn a few sets and a few applicatoins moves and to them that is WCK.


Let's face it the essence of an art is not the form nor it is the sets nor it is a certain application moves.

the essence of an art is something alive. Something after one did a training for thousand of days it will show up within any form or shape or applications one perform. One cannot mimic it, one has to have that training or Kung fu to shown it under static and dynamic condition.



For decades, some believe, go take a seminal, learn some forms, some moves, some applications, some secrets, some kuits,... those are learning WC.

if those are the ultimate then why the ancient call their art Kung Fu which means time and experience.


I have seen people who chase and fight to learn certain set of forms. In their view, knowing the form is a must, knowing the secret form give one power give one advance ability. are those real? Nope, for me, those most of the time got nothing to do with Kung fu at all and how can one think one got higher power just learning that?


In my understanding, every set /form I was taugh in my lineage of WCK has a theme. When one knows that theme and have good execution on that theme, one then know the essence of that set /form. But then one doesnt have to do that set to apply the theme because the essence after one got it and have it within themself, it will show in every act one makes.


Things goes as foundamental as lower abdoment breathing.

contracting and exercising the lower abdoment for a few mins or while doing a set or demonstration doesnt mean one know the essence of lower abdorment breathing.

However, once one put years of training and arive to the essence of the lower abdoment breathing and having the real kung fu. In every breathing one is using lower abdoment breathing naturally when one evokes it. And at that state one will benifit from the kung fu.



These days' people are so concern about getting take down or grap or lock...etc. Those concern certainly is legit and real. for if the grapper know the essence of his/her art, s/he is sure going to use it by nature.

However, my concern is not about being take down or grap because I am not a grapper, but do I really know how to stand and move balance-ly or response stable-ly when I was attemp to be taken down... See, that call for knowing the essence of standing and moving. without knowing that means no kung fu and it means one cant even stand or move, thus, how can one handle someone who attemp different thing on one?



What is the essence of the art call WCK? do we know? or we have forgoten? or we have never learn? Those are the questions to night.



what do you think?

I don't know if anyone can say they have the whole essence of WCK your lucky if you can even receive the essence of your sifu's skill.

[Lee Chiang Po]

not sure if i understand you or not here. Not trying to offend.

so, how can you not be concerned with the take down? you stated that if the grappler knows the essence of he/she art then they will use it. So the essence of grappling is take down to submission or choke/break. it's the methodology behind it, simplisity in nature to take away the striking of the striker. that's what makes it so effective because it is simple.

My beliefs are that you should learn all area's and not dismiss one because you think you have solved the "problem" of take downs or whatever. you cannot solve the problem of take downs. To counter it you have to learn what it is to grapple and clinch. I hear people say that all the time, "i'm not a grappler, so i focus on stand up" just not a smart philosophy imo. there is no stance that can save you from the take down. If someone is good enough they will take you down plain and simple. So the safest bet in my book is to learn the grapplers game and have the back up of knowledge to help you if it ever happens.

don't know if that is what you were asking. but your sentence structure is a little off. didn't mean to offend if any was taken. :)

I have always felt that this is what our skill is all about. I feel that I can grapple ok, but I don't think I necessarily have to use grappling skills to ward off a grappler. If someone goes for a take down I don't necessarily feel I need to have that skill to be able to deal with it. I have these skills as well, but do not feel that I have to use them to deal with their likes. There are many other skills that can be applied instead. I don't like the idea of grappling because it can often lead to the ground. When I discuss this stuff it is always in a self defense situation, so going to ground can be serious. I would always wish for another option. And the way to do this is to find the options and train them well. You do not have to roll with a person because that is the way he fights.

[anerlich]

The essence of Wing Chun is to close on the opponent quickly while remaining protected, establish bridges to control the opponent and limit or eliminate his options for attack and defense and then strike fast, hard, and continuously until you reduce him to submission or unconsciousness.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hendrick, I like that you chose breathing as an important theme in forms.
I have often find that breathing is useful. It helps me a lot in a pinch. On a more serious note, proper breathing is a finer point of fighting and a key element in delivering strikes. Every fighter's first lesson should mention breathing and breathing technique should be reinforced during forms.

[Dragonzbane76]

I would always wish for another option. And the way to do this is to find the options and train them well. You do not have to roll with a person because that is the way he fights.

my thoughts are that we are never given 'options' in fights or self defense. We never have the luxuary we are given what is present. You cannot dictate a fight and the outcomes. you can only present yourself the best opportunity to get out. You have a good point in saying that in a 'street' application going to the ground is not the smartest of assumptions. But again we are not always given what we want. That's why i stated that you should learn the ground game to have in your arsenal. The knowledge could save your life, to dismiss is a critical error imo.
Most times to beat a grappler you have to learn the game. To have no knowledge of that game and go against a grappler you will not win in most cases, because once you are on the ground your game "the striking" is at an end to an extent of effectivness. but in a street environment your probably not going up against randy couture. But still in my book I would rather have a well rounded spectrum then to just focus on stand up and hope for the best if I go to the ground.

but everyone to their own when they are training. If you feel that there is not a need to advance the ground skills then I feel you are making a mistake.

[t_niehoff]

The essence of Wing Chun is to close on the opponent quickly while remaining protected, establish bridges to control the opponent and limit or eliminate his options for attack and defense and then strike fast, hard, and continuously until you reduce him to submission or unconsciousness.

That sums it up nicely.

[LoneTiger108]

The essence of Wing Chun is to close on the opponent quickly while remaining protected, establish bridges to control the opponent and limit or eliminate his options for attack and defense and then strike fast, hard, and continuously until you reduce him to submission or unconsciousness.

I would also agree here T, if it was 'the purpose' of Wing Chun we were discussing.

But I think Hendrik may be thinking of something else.

What is it that enables us to to attain the skill in the first place? The essence of our knowledge?

Good Kung Fu IMHO ;)

[Hendrik]

I would also agree here T, if it was 'the purpose' of Wing Chun we were discussing.

But I think Hendrik may be thinking of something else.

What is it that enables us to to attain the skill in the first place? The essence of our knowledge?

Good Kung Fu IMHO ;)



Dont think what you think I think. just share yours.

[LoneTiger108]

Dont think what you think I think. just share yours.

I try, but still I'm learning every day too!

The essence of Wing Chun I think is having good kung fu. A good foundation will enable the development of specific skill. This may be why, I believe, the style was mainly taught to adults and elders considered it an 'intelligent art'. They may have been missing the good old kung fu!

I also believe Wing Chun has it's foundation, it's own kung fu, which can be learnt by anyone. Young or old. Intelligent or not.

Wing Chuns essence can help you walk the first step of a journey through your whole life. The essence stays with you til the end. Maybe it's also inherited and not given?

[anerlich]

But I think Hendrik may be thinking of something else.


I answered the question as stated. I have no interest in trying to guess what others may be thinking.

If essence and purpose are two different things, something is wrong.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I answered the question as stated. I have no interest in trying to guess what others may be thinking.

If essence and purpose are two different things, something is wrong.

That is just about as plain as one can put it.

[wtxs]

The essence of Wing Chun is to close on the opponent quickly while remaining protected, establish bridges to control the opponent and limit or eliminate his options for attack and defense and then strike fast, hard, and continuously until you reduce him to submission or unconsciousness.


To go one step further, stripping away everything we know of WC leaves behind the essence/core of what it represent - the art of fighting!:cool:

[t_niehoff]

To go one step further, stripping away everything we know of WC leaves behind the essence/core of what it represent - the art of fighting!:cool:

Fighting is much broader than WCK.

[sanjuro_ronin]

moisture is the essence of water...
http://hollywoodwalkofinsane.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/zoolander_merman.jpg

[wtxs]

moisture is the essence of water...
http://hollywoodwalkofinsane.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/zoolander_merman.jpg

Your reasoning may not fly with our Mr. T here, " moisture is the essence of water" is too broad of an statement, he may inquire as to what bodies of water. :p

[anerlich]

So, Mr Sanjuro clever trousers, what is the essence of Brawndo?

http://roflcon.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/brawndo_logo.jpg

[JPinAZ]

The essence of Wing Chun is to close on the opponent quickly while remaining protected, establish bridges to control the opponent and limit or eliminate his options for attack and defense and then strike fast, hard, and continuously until you reduce him to submission or unconsciousness.

Um, haven't you been reading? You can't control anybody in a fight - there's no such thing as control... :p

[t_niehoff]

Um, haven't you been reading? You can't control anybody in a fight - there's no such thing as control... :p

You seem to have misunderstood, there is such a thing as control in a fight, it's just that you don't apparently know very much about it.

[JPinAZ]

hmm... my only intention of that last post was to drag the drooling, jabbering, know-it-all b!tch trolls to post on this thread. And here you are. I controlled you 100%. thanks for playing.

[Wayfaring]

hmm... my only intention of that last post was to drag the drooling, jabbering, know-it-all b!tch trolls to post on this thread. And here you are. I controlled you 100%. thanks for playing.

Nice trolling yourself there, bro.

7.5

[wtxs]

To go one step further, stripping away everything we know of WC leaves behind the essence/core of what it represent - the art of fighting!:cool:

"T" Sez: Fighting is much broader than WC

I must have been lied to all this time, just like killing is killing regardless what you tools you used to do it with...**** them all. :mad:

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I was just offered a different perspective on essence from the graphic arts.

Painting humans

When painting androgynous humans, look at both men and women, then subtract all of the obvious male and female characteristics. Paint the remainder.

When painting women, subtract all of the obvious male characteristics and accentuate all of the obvious female characteristics.

When painting men, do the opposite.

Caricature drawers use this technique: they look at their subject's face, reduce the features common to everyone and accentuate the features unique to their subject... so we see Jay Leno's chin, or Obama's ears. Master caricaturists can reduce the right things by the right amounts and accentuate the right things by just the right amounts so that their artwork appears more real than the subject itself.

This is "painting the essence."

In this light, to find the essence of Wing Chun would mean to find all of the common aspects of Wing Chun w/ other Martial Arts, reduce them, and emphasize the remaining features.

Of course, it's important to ask yourself whether or not the it's the essence of fighting or the essence of Wing Chun you're looking for, then.

[JPinAZ]

Nice trolling yourself there, bro.

7.5

fair enough! least I was honest about it :)

[t_niehoff]

"T" Sez: Fighting is much broader than WC

I must have been lied to all this time, just like killing is killing regardless what you tools you used to do it with...**** them all. :mad:

I don't know whether you were lied to or not, just that you don't seem to be using your bean.

Fighting is much broader since it a whole lot of sh1t happens in it that WCK doesn't prepare you for. Same with boxing. Boxing and WCK are just (different) skill sets, and those skill sets can be used in fighting -- but fighting encompasses much more than simply those skill sets.

[wtxs]

What is the essence of the art call WCK? do we know? or we have forgoten? or we have never learn? Those are the questions to night.

what do you think?


You sir, is one sly fox, IMO no one has better skill in drawing out the trolls like you. Start an post, sat back and watch everybody else do the verbal sparring, liken looking at the scene of an fish pond at feeding time.

Personalities on the forum are diverse to say the least, I value and respect every ones opinion and their perspectives. Individuality is what made us unique, we would be carbon copies without it.

So Mr. Fish-food-in-hand, what is your take on the essence of WC, time for you to sample the turbulent water.

[wtxs]

I don't know whether you were lied to or not, just that you don't seem to be using your bean.

Fighting is much broader since it a whole lot of sh1t happens in it that WCK doesn't prepare you for. Same with boxing. Boxing and WCK are just (different) skill sets, and those skill sets can be used in fighting -- but fighting encompasses much more than simply those skill sets.

Excuse me for not using my beans, this thread is about "what is the essence of WC", had nothing to do with skill sets and preparation for fighting. How about we take" what is the essence of war", it's to fight/destroy your opponent on an large scale, got nothing to do with training the poor souls, mass deployment of weapons for the final conflict.

Hey what do I know about essence of war, I've only spend some 24 years of my live in the military... Da$n I've gotten lied to again. :mad:

And how about "what is the essence of sex"? Come on "T", give us your best shot (punt intened). :D Got to find my training wheels, can't miss this lesson. :p

[Hendrik]

You sir, is one sly fox, IMO no one has better skill in drawing out the trolls like you. Start an post, sat back and watch everybody else do the verbal sparring, liken looking at the scene of an fish pond at feeding time.

Personalities on the forum are diverse to say the least, I value and respect every ones opinion and their perspectives. Individuality is what made us unique, we would be carbon copies without it.

So Mr. Fish-food-in-hand, what is your take on the essence of WC, time for you to sample the turbulent water.


Let me reply you with a song's lyrics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr4vj7mk&feature=related


could some one please help me to translate the following? thanks!

誰在懸崖沏一壺茶　溫熱前世的牽掛　
而我在調整千年的時差　愛恨全喝下
歲月在岩石上敲打　我又留長了頭髮　
耐心的等海岸線的變化　大雨就要下
我等你一句話

[Wayfaring]

fair enough! least I was honest about it :)

You don't have to apologize for it or feel bad. Good trolling skillz with those that are how you say "comprehension challenged" just expresses good forward intent.

:p:p:p

[t_niehoff]

Excuse me for not using my beans, this thread is about "what is the essence of WC", had nothing to do with skill sets and preparation for fighting.


WCK is a kuen faat, a fighting method. Fighting, however, is a very broad area and WCK doesn't cover the whole area, just a subset (its own skill set). So, its essence isn't all of fighting, just the area pertaining to its method.



How about we take" what is the essence of war", it's to fight/destroy your opponent on an large scale, got nothing to do with training the poor souls, mass deployment of weapons for the final conflict.


How did you bring war into the discussion? WCK has nothing to do with war. Do you think boxing is about war too?



Hey what do I know about essence of war, I've only spend some 24 years of my live in the military... Da$n I've gotten lied to again. :mad:


I don't think you've been lied to, I think your reasoning is flawed.



And how about "what is the essence of sex"? Come on "T", give us your best shot (punt intened). :D Got to find my training wheels, can't miss this lesson. :p

Instead of your training wheel, you'd be better served by putting on your thinking cap.

[wtxs]

WCK is a kuen faat, a fighting method. Fighting, however, is a very broad area and WCK doesn't cover the whole area, just a subset (its own skill set). So, its essence isn't all of fighting, just the area pertaining to its method.



How did you bring war into the discussion? WCK has nothing to do with war. Do you think boxing is about war too?



I don't think you've been lied to, I think your reasoning is flawed.



Instead of your training wheel, you'd be better served by putting on your thinking cap.


Please pick up your favorite dictionary, look up martial art and art of war, you can inform the scholar at Webster that they don't know sh$$t. May I even suggest the Wikipedia.

You still haven't address the "essence of sex", not your best subject? :D

[JPinAZ]

You don't have to apologize for it or feel bad. Good trolling skillz with those that are how you say "comprehension challenged" just expresses good forward intent.

:p:p:p

haha, no appologies or bad feelings about it, just stating a fact. :D

[anerlich]

You still haven't address the "essence of sex", not your best subject?

T abhors any activity with compliant partners.

He's too much of a bada$$ for that pu$$y stuff

[t_niehoff]

Please pick up your favorite dictionary, look up martial art and art of war, you can inform the scholar at Webster that they don't know sh$$t. May I even suggest the Wikipedia.

You still haven't address the "essence of sex", not your best subject? :D

Martial art is a western term we use to descibe various pugilistic and related activities, of which only some pertain to war. Wing chun is designated in cantonese (its language of origin) a kuen faat or fist method. Wing chun is not about war. And I did look at Wiki -- maybe you should do the same. :)