Do OL lifts build or just express explosiveness

[Frost]

OK all this is not a new topic, powerlifters and OL guys have debated for years but I wanted some thoughts on the topic, on the one hand we have those that say OL lifts are a great way to get more explosiveness and on the other hand we have those that say they are too technical and not worth the hassle that if your SQ and DL go up you will naturally get more explosive and if you throw in some explosive SQ's at 50% of your max you are good to go.

personally I fall between the two groups, I think the full lifts are too complex for athletes who are not properly coached and getting stronger will help you become more explosive (especially if you also do explosive jumps, bounds and box jumps) on the other hand the power versions are easily learned and the triple extension is really useful for those of us that like to throw people :D

So what do others feel, are they necessary or useful, if you do not use them how do you develop explosiveness?

[Oso]

well...given that i probably don't know wtf i'm talking about:

if explosiveness implies velocity and if the SAID principle is true then if you don't move quickly through a movement you can not develop explosiveness or quickly increasing velocity.

but, you say to also train box jumps and bounding to work the explosiveness but it's not under any other load than your body weight and if the goal is to get better at throwing objects (people) around then you need to load

[uki]

proper intention results in proper explosions...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Olympic lifts "teach" your muscles to "accelerate" though a movement in an "explosive" way, which is the ONLY way you can ever lift HEAVY weights.

Explosiveness, like quickness and like aerobic activity is task specififc nevertheless, training GENERAL explosivness is crucial to developing SPECIFIC explosiveness.

MUST one do OL to be explosive? No, of course not, but IF you have a good coach they will help build CO-ORDINATED whole body explosiveness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We also need to remember that one reason OL are so "preached" is becayse they do tend to develop WHOLE body explosivness as opposed to many exercises that develop lower body "only" or upper body "only".

[Frost]

well...given that i probably don't know wtf i'm talking about:

if explosiveness implies velocity and if the SAID principle is true then if you don't move quickly through a movement you can not develop explosiveness or quickly increasing velocity.

but, you say to also train box jumps and bounding to work the explosiveness but it's not under any other load than your body weight and if the goal is to get better at throwing objects (people) around then you need to load

The SAID principle i find is a bit misleading, its like GPP and SSP, you need general explosiveness before it can become sports specific, just as you need a general strength base or a general aerobic base before making them sports specific.

If we applied SAID truly to martial arts most of the explosions in MMA and TCMA and moving forwards not standing still so bounds, sprints and broad jumps are more biomechanically sound then the OL lifts

And the force generated in bounds and jumps (weighted or unweighted) teach the muscles to explode with full force, they are not really load dependent but rather force dependent (if that make sense).

[Frost]

We also need to remember that one reason OL are so "preached" is becayse they do tend to develop WHOLE body explosivness as opposed to many exercises that develop lower body "only" or upper body "only".

this is a good point, however the reason i asked the question is that i have not OL lifted in over a year, i have done alot of strength work and for explosiveness jumpes and med ball throws.

Yesterday i did some OL lifting for fun (this was after 40 minutes of conditioning) and managed to easily equal my best power clean, this was without any OL work at all in the past year so it got me thinking do the OL lifts build power or simply express it?

[Oso]

@ Frost: hence my phrasing ;)

but, i don't find the SAID principle to be too misleading, at least from personal experience.

through most of the 90's i got caught in the 'situps are bad' thing and only did crunches and leg lifts...literally for probably close to a decade i never did a situp while i could easily knock out a 100 of either crunches or LL, usually back to back. but, then in the early 2000's I had to work to get more than a couple of situps.

[Frost]

@ Frost: hence my phrasing ;)

but, i don't find the SAID principle to be too misleading, at least from personal experience.

through most of the 90's i got caught in the 'situps are bad' thing and only did crunches and leg lifts...literally for probably close to a decade i never did a situp while i could easily knock out a 100 of either crunches or LL, usually back to back. but, then in the early 2000's I had to work to get more than a couple of situps.

[Please don't think I was being negative, you raised some very good points about SIAD, its just such a confusing topic for everyone, hell most gurus on the internet get the principle wrong how are we mere mortals meant to understand it lol

I mean long slow runs over 40 minutes are at first glance not very sports specific to MMA fights that may last only 15 minutes, yet if you don’t do them you won’t have the aerobic based needed to aid recover between rounds and you will gas quickly (as witnessed with most of the contestants on the TUF shows).

The bench press is not sports specific to punching, but without a strong upper body you won’t normally be able to generate enough force to have a powerful punch

I tend to thing of it like a pyramid, at the bottom the broad base of basic strength, explosiveness and aerobic fitness which is general to everyone, once developed you can move on to more sports specific adapt ions, so from bench press chin ups, OL lifts and heavy med balls throws for upper body strength and explosiveness to punch out drills, and throws to build sports specific training. Typically you can not develop one without the other, and this is sometimes forgotten

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yesterday i did some OL lifting for fun (this was after 40 minutes of conditioning) and managed to easily equal my best power clean, this was without any OL work at all in the past year so it got me thinking do the OL lifts build power or simply express it?

OL are both, they build and they express explosive power, not sure if you cna isolate one from the other...

[sanjuro_ronin]

General fitness - General strength, speed, endurance and such - are crucial as the building block for any sport specific activity.
There may be "better" ways of training sport specific strength than doing OL ( as an example), better in the sense that the learning curve is less, but I good solid base is essential for LONG TERM viability.

[Oso]

frost, don't worry, i wasn't. :)



fwiw, i just find doing Oly lifts fun...i've never done them before (besides dl and squat if they are considered oly). I absolutely loving doing squat cleans and overhead squats (which aren't really oly though, are they?) the focus needed to maintain the form for the OHS is just amazing to me.

[Frost]

frost, don't worry, i wasn't. :)



fwiw, i just find doing Oly lifts fun...i've never done them before (besides dl and squat if they are considered oly). I absolutely loving doing squat cleans and overhead squats (which aren't really oly though, are they?) the focus needed to maintain the form for the OHS is just amazing to me.

the OHS is an oly assistant movement in that it trains the bottom position of the snatch, technically the only lifts that can be called OL liftsare the snatch and the clean and jerk (used to be able to include the clean and press until they got rid of it from the olympics:confused: ) all others are assistance lifts

Yep i used to love OHS squats, and these nothing more fun than cleaning and jerking your own body weight lol

[uki]

nothing more fun than cleaning and jerking your own body weighti like pushing wheelbarrows full of concrete around. :)

[Frost]

i like pushing wheelbarrows full of concrete around. :)

not the same, unless you are lifting them above your head :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

not the same, unless you are lifting them above your head :)

And whipping them across the street !

[Frost]

And whipping them across the street !

lol true :D

[Oso]

i'll give Uki this one to a point...a wheelbarrow full of rock or concrete is one unstable mother..negotiating it around a construction site and not spilling it is not that easy...it can really give you good gains in leg and core/stability muscles if you have to do it often.

i kinda laugh at the new two wheel construction wheelbarrows on the market now...pansies!

[Frost]

i'll give Uki this one to a point...a wheelbarrow full of rock or concrete is one unstable mother..negotiating it around a construction site and not spilling it is not that easy...it can really give you good gains in leg and core/stability muscles if you have to do it often.

i kinda laugh at the new two wheel construction wheelbarrows on the market now...pansies!

I remember when the renegade coach has his old web site, there were a series of articles wheelbarrow training and a 8 piece series on sledgehammer training...lol this stuff is not that hard to figure out really but guys make a fortune out of teaching wheel barrow GPP and sledgehammer GPP drills

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

oly lifts definitely build explosiveness. as a powerlifter who's dabbled in the oly lifts for a brief period id say that they are probably more efficient at building explosiveness than the power lifts, but they alone probably wont make or break the martial artist or other cross training athlete. of course this is all based on my limited experience and not any actual data.

also keep in mind that the oly lifts dont have to be perfect if you're not going to compete in oly lifting. if you have exceptional self correction and learning you might be able to get by on books / vids. if not, almost everyone could get by on a good seminar or a few sessions with a decent coach (follow ups once every month or so would be even better, but of course its not possible for everyone). this is especially true for the power clean / snatch. getting the hang of the full clean or snatch might take a bit more coaching, but most people could novice the power versions well enough to train them fairly safely in a minimal amount of time.

[Frost]

oly lifts definitely build explosiveness. as a powerlifter who's dabbled in the oly lifts for a brief period id say that they are probably more efficient at building explosiveness than the power lifts, but they alone probably wont make or break the martial artist or other cross training athlete. of course this is all based on my limited experience and not any actual data.

also keep in mind that the oly lifts dont have to be perfect if you're not going to compete in oly lifting. if you have exceptional self correction and learning you might be able to get by on books / vids. if not, almost everyone could get by on a good seminar or a few sessions with a decent coach (follow ups once every month or so would be even better, but of course its not possible for everyone). this is especially true for the power clean / snatch. getting the hang of the full clean or snatch might take a bit more coaching, but most people could novice the power versions well enough to train them fairly safely in a minimal amount of time.


yepi found the power versions fairly easy to learn, i also found the split lifts a lot easier to learn than the full squat versions, and more forgiving too.