Kettle Bell?

[kfson]

What's the deal with these things?
Fad, BS, or Real Deal?

[Pork Chop]

What's the deal with these things?
Fad, BS, or Real Deal?

a lil bit of all 3

i think the biggest thing that sets it apart from dumbbells is the handle.
It should be large & the concept is to hold it loose enough to let it swing.
The handle, coupled with the off centered weight and the explosive, full-body exercises allow for a different dynamic in lifting, where lighter weights feel much heavier.

at one time i thought i could replicate the majority of the benefits by going a little heavier with dumbbells, but after last night's workout, where i was using 2 35lb kbells instead of 40lb dbells, i'm not so sure - coz the first set nearly killed me. hehe

[Oso]

there is a difference between db's and kb's for sure.

you can't do the basic swing with a db ...which, imhfao, is one great exercise.

another good one i like is the turkish get up but i don't think the kb's makes that much difference because it's fairly static work....i once did 5 on each side with the 76...is that the 2 pood?...man, that was rough.

oh, and we did an freakish burpee like exercise where you did a pushup on the kb's and then jumped into the squat position between the kb's and did a DL and then back to the pushup...oh, yea, that was in a couplet exercise where we did a waiter's walk with a 45# plate overhead...i think maybe 3 sets, 400m, 200m, 100m with some number of the KB DL Burpee in between.

so...they are not BS and can be the Real Deal even if they are a fad to some.

[Pork Chop]

there is a difference between db's and kb's for sure.

you can't do the basic swing with a db ...which, imhfao, is one great exercise.


well you can do it, but it's not quite the same thing
dumbbell swings are actually pretty common and even in Bill Pearl's "Getting Stronger", probably the most common weightlifting book on anybody's shelf from way back.

[Oso]

well, swinging anything from between your legs to over your head is good, but, unless I'm mistaken, the KB is THE tool for that.

i used to have Pearl's book back in the dim dark 90's...wonder what happened to it.

he was mostly veg...no meat as i recall...eggs and cheese though.

[Frost]

Yes they are a fad, yes you can duplicate most if not all exercises with a dumbbell with the added benefit that you can gradually increase weight without having to buy a new bell.
Dumbbell swings, snatches and cleans have been around for years, as have bent presses, Turkish getups windmills etc

Are they useful? sure all training tools can be… the question should be asked are they worth getting for you, do they fit your personal goals?

[donbdc]

Simply b/c of there shape and and balance they offer a diffent dynamic to your work out. I do KB work outs 3 x a week DL and Squat once a week and body weight excercises 2 times a week. Yoga and Kungfu daily. They are all good. Get a little training buy a 16kg bell and add some swings ang TGU into your stuff. You will really be pleased w/ the results. As an older athlete it has really helped me, I just wish I had started KB and Yoga a little earlier for the joints.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVSVOSykbI

Don Berry DC RKC

[Kevin73]

As others have said, they are a bit of all three. If money is an issue, I would just do the exercises with a dumbbell instead. If you can afford them, try getting a pair and incorporating them into your workouts. Any exercise done properly will benefit you and the variety will avoid burnout.

The cost is what gets me. You can get a pair of dumbbells even fixed for about 59 cents a pound at a sporting goods store. That means for a PAIR of 50lb dumbbells I spend maybe $60. To buy a 45lb kettlebell (the cheapest kind there) for ONE of them it is $90! So cost benefit to me is buy more dumbbells and exercise more that way.

[Frost]

As others have said, they are a bit of all three. If money is an issue, I would just do the exercises with a dumbbell instead. If you can afford them, try getting a pair and incorporating them into your workouts. Any exercise done properly will benefit you and the variety will avoid burnout.

The cost is what gets me. You can get a pair of dumbbells even fixed for about 59 cents a pound at a sporting goods store. That means for a PAIR of 50lb dumbbells I spend maybe $60. To buy a 45lb kettlebell (the cheapest kind there) for ONE of them it is $90! So cost benefit to me is buy more dumbbells and exercise more that way.

quite right, and different is not necessarily better: the old ways of lifting heavy for strength and doing running, skipping and bag work for cardio has worked for years for martial artists sometimes there is a reason a training method almost goes out of existance

[donbdc]

New doesn't necessarily mean better and rediscovering old ways has been due to a much greater understanding of how the body works.
If you never pick up a KB can you be strong as hell? Sure you can! My OL coach has never touched one and he's a monster, and healthy too! But, he trains really smart.
Look at old style gyms, 80 yrs ago, what was in there?
Climbing ropes, a pummel horse, jump ropes, dumb bells, kettelbells,club bells, medicine balls, wrestling mats, punching bags and speed bags.
Today's gym: chrome plated machines you sit at and isolate movement. Now thats a load of crap and a great source of injury.

Train Hard Train Smart and don't let anyone tell you whats right for you! Find out for your self!

Don Berry DC RKC

[Oso]

i can get used KB's at Play it Again Sports for <$1 per pound. check for cracks first before buying any used weights.

[donbdc]

Sometimes there are good deals on ebay too. But shipping is always $$$.

[donbdc]

They also make adjustable kb with varies weight. Might save you a little money from running out and buying little weight advances for a while. Not sure how strong you are I just seen Kb I think 15 or 25lb with a instructor DVD at target or Wal-Mart for like 15$ on sale. Made of rubber I believe not sure if you have a preference to material. I never used before so can’t comment on how good they are compared to traditional weights. I did try Indian club swinging for a month but went back to traditional lifting. Good luck on what you decide just thought I would mention the sale and the adjustable for you to consider.

The handle is too small and the weight is too light for anything done properly.
Don Berry DC RKC

[Frost]

New doesn't necessarily mean better and rediscovering old ways has been due to a much greater understanding of how the body works.
If you never pick up a KB can you be strong as hell? Sure you can! My OL coach has never touched one and he's a monster, and healthy too! But, he trains really smart.
Look at old style gyms, 80 yrs ago, what was in there?
Climbing ropes, a pummel horse, jump ropes, dumb bells, kettelbells,club bells, medicine balls, wrestling mats, punching bags and speed bags.
Today's gym: chrome plated machines you sit at and isolate movement. Now thats a load of crap and a great source of injury.

Train Hard Train Smart and don't let anyone tell you whats right for you! Find out for your self!

Don Berry DC RKC

I am not to sure about this, outside of a few drawings in Pavels books and some strongman acts (not training pictures but using them as part of their acts in carnivals)I have never seen kettlebells depicted in any literature from the early parts of the last century, the same with clubs bells, apart from in the Indian gyms when the British troops were stationed there I can’t remember seeing them anywhere in literature. If you could point me in a direction that would be great I love old time lifting. I find it interesting that the modern wrestling gyms in India now for the majority have proper weights and use the clubs sparingly and only bring them out for demonstrations to visiting westerners.

I agree with the train smart point though and not falling for others ways of doing things but finding your own way, but this can be difficult with so many fraudulent trainers latching onto the latest gimmicks

[chusauli]

KB's are awesome...they are old school full body exercises. They stress your body and make you use your core more because your center of gravity is off with the way the KB is designed.

Sandow and other old school weight lifters used to use KB's.

Of course, DB's and BB's are great also. You will also benefit with all of them. I do all of them and body weight exercises, but if I have only a little time, I just use a pair of 35, 45, or 53 lb KB's and do basically deadlifts and clean and press and then its done. I've done the same exercises with adjustable weight DB's and they're easier...

[David Jamieson]

kettle bells are simple one more device to use to do the same old stuff. lol

stone locks, dumbells, tins filled with sand with a handle etc etc etc can all be used to do the same stuff.

the device doesn't do the work for you.

[donbdc]

I am not to sure about this, outside of a few drawings in Pavels books and some strongman acts (not training pictures but using them as part of their acts in carnivals)I have never seen kettlebells depicted in any literature from the early parts of the last century, the same with clubs bells, apart from in the Indian gyms when the British troops were stationed there I can’t remember seeing them anywhere in literature. If you could point me in a direction that would be great I love old time lifting. I find it interesting that the modern wrestling gyms in India now for the majority have proper weights and use the clubs sparingly and only bring them out for demonstrations to visiting westerners.

I agree with the train smart point though and not falling for others ways of doing things but finding your own way, but this can be difficult with so many fraudulent trainers latching onto the latest gimmicks

Grey Cook showed a pic in a seminar/ FMS workshop, that was such a classic looking old style gym and thus the description. I don't know where he got it, I wish I had a copy. But I will do my utmost to look into it.
I do know that Burmes Martial Artist that I have trained w/ have used them as part of there training. Much like a weighted escrima.

Don Berry DC RKC

[donbdc]

Heres 1 pic http://www.ramblezone.com/fitness/pics/image.jpg
Here is another http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/blog/2009/03/noel-le-gaulois.html
This link has many pics and stories of old time strong men.

Why the KB went out of favour is pure conjecture. As for me it has helped greatly and that is really all I care about as far as proof goes. My ? for you though is have you ever been to a certified (rkc, IKFF or any other) kettlebell trainer and actually tried some of the excercises before passing so much judgement, or is it stuff you just read. Can you do 100 snatches w/ 24 kg in 5 min, can you press 40kg KB. Why hate something so much that does good for many. If you don't like it don't use it.
I have never said it was a magical device just a good tool, w/ solid people behind it.

Don Berry DC RKC

[chusauli]

It comes down to people never really trying it.

The KB probably went out because it does take a fair amount of instruction to do it properly.

How many people have a set of Stone locks these days? They're hard to get...

[donbdc]

It comes down to people never really trying it.

The KB probably went out because it does take a fair amount of instruction to do it properly.

How many people have a set of Stone locks these days? They're hard to get...

I talked to a chiropractor in MD who had an Assistant that uses them. The first I have heard of them being used at all by anyone. Of course, she added, "he's one of those crazy kungfu guys.":)

Don

[Frost]

Hate? I don't hate anything, I am very weary of all the marketing hype around them and believe there are cheaper tools that work just as well if not better that’s all

Yes I have used them as the gym I am at has a full set, no I have not attended a certification seminar but seeing as I can OL lift and have been practising the dumbbell versions for years I did not find them that difficult to learn.
I have snatched with them and pressed etc, I personally find them better for use in explosive squats than anything and for swings as apart of a conditioning routine but that is just me.

And as I said I agree with the train smart and discover your own way if that way is kettle bells then go for it, the original poster asked for opinions and I gave mine as you gave yours.

Its interesting to me that one of the reasons Robert gave as to why they might have gone out of fashion was because they need a fair amount of instruction to do properly, when the whole selling point I thought was that they were easier to learn than the barbell versions

[donbdc]

I have never been toldthey were easy to learn. Nor was i ever told OLY was easy to learn. In fact when I watch vids of either, it's obvious most people have not had training. I watched a crossfit grp do DLs. I think not one person in the room had proper form. That I don't get. There has to be a concern for safety. What I was taught at the RKC was Safety was paramount andther were a lot of details. If you are lifting light or heavy you use the same form ans stay safe.
Thats what I know about trainig weather KB or Oly!

Don Berry DC RKC

[Kevin73]

I think that the reason KB's went out of style was the fact that dumbbells were "invented" and were easier to make and mass produce.

Again, my whole complaint is the cost/benefit ratio. You can buy two 50lbs dumbbells for the same price as a single 45lb kettlebell. If they were the same price I would like them better, if for no other reason than the variety they offer to spice up training.

[donbdc]

I think they are expenxive myself. Pig Iron is Pig Iron and should be sold by weight. Once he mold is set, why such a high cost. Dragon Door KB style is perfect handle and wieght balance for the type of training I do but I think they should be more affordable.

Don Berry DC RKC

[David Jamieson]

It comes down to people never really trying it.

The KB probably went out because it does take a fair amount of instruction to do it properly.

How many people have a set of Stone locks these days? They're hard to get...

I had a set of stone locks, but I gavce them away when I purchased a rack of dumbells. lol

true story.

it's just weight people.

It adds resistance training to your muscle building workouts.

seriously, you could use pales of water or bags of sand so long as you could get a handle on it.

[chusauli]

DD has a nice quality set, but I have used other brands and have a school set that is a mish mosh of other brands and they work fine. Cost is coming down, in fact, I bought a 45 lb KB recently for $45 on sale. Its microeconomics - supply goes up, demand goes down, price goes down...

Proper form is essential for all free weights, whether they be BB's, DB's, or KB's. And the explosiveness and range of motion is more attractive than machines. A 45 lb KB., IMO, is more difficult to move than a 50 lb DB in doing cleans and presses and snatches...mainly because of the off center of gravity.

If you look at the history, machines were made for rehab and Physical Therapy...

[donbdc]

DD has a nice quality set, but I have used other brands and have a school set that is a mish mosh of other brands and they work fine. Cost is coming down, in fact, I bought a 45 lb KB recently for $45 on sale. Its microeconomics - supply goes up, demand goes down, price goes down...

Proper form is essential for all free weights, whether they be BB's, DB's, or KB's. And the explosiveness and range of motion is more attractive than machines. A 45 lb KB., IMO, is more difficult to move than a 50 lb DB in doing cleans and presses and snatches...mainly because of the off center of gravity.

If you look at the history, machines were made for rehab and Physical Therapy...

Robert you are so right! when I was in school 25 yrs ago it was all about that!
Cybex pushed it on us all and we bought it. Isolate the muscle and the weak range of motion and hookem up to a machine. However, muscles rarely work in isolation and there was no proprioceptive training. It was a plan for failure.

Don Berry DC RKC

[David Jamieson]

machines force correct structure and yes, they were created to do just that.

[donbdc]

There is a flaw in the whole idea of sitting down to push an pull weight. There is no worse position than the seated postion for the lumbar disc then you want to add weight to that?!?
Many time they just cause injury w/ poor design. I can't tell you how many patients I treat form using that crap on a regular basis.
Also musclle are all connected, Physically and neurologically. They work together either as synergist or antagonist to perform motion. The whole idea of isolation via machine is archaic and no longer scientifically valid.

Don Berry DC RKC NASM

[taai gihk yahn]

There is a flaw in the whole idea of sitting down to push an pull weight. There is no worse position than the seated postion for the lumbar disc then you want to add weight to that?!?
I think that's a bit of an over-simplification as regards the way the systems functions: certainly the seated position loads L/S more than any other, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing - there are numerous other factors that contribute to disc dysfunction beyond this one piece of information; so to suggest that weight training in sitting will necessarily contribute to disc dysfunction is a bit of a stretch...


Many time they just cause injury w/ poor design. I can't tell you how many patients I treat form using that crap on a regular basis.
so are you saying that you treat a lot of patients who have had L/S disc dysfunction due specifically to seated weight-training?


Also musclle are all connected, Physically and neurologically.
not to mention emotionally...


They work together either as synergist or antagonist to perform motion. The whole idea of isolation via machine is archaic and no longer scientifically valid.
I don't think anyone believes that you can totally isolate a muscle, that's pretty much impossible; I think the idea behind Cybex or any other machine out there (the only thing "unique" about Cybex is, if I recall correctly, that it functions on a velocity-dependent resistance curve, which can be useful for certain types of rehab protocols) is to generate a relative increase in emphasis on a given muscle; for example, arguments about open vs. closed chain aside, you can address quad atrophy using a knee extension machine or via doing single leg squats; the former is much less integrated, but possible for more people and also doesn't being in postural stabilizers in the same way, allowing for more reps; ultimately, of course, you need to train functionally for full return, but it's just part of the process, not the end-all, be-all;

[donbdc]

Disc for seated squat machines, Shoulders for seated presses of those too many to count!
I am not stretching the fact that the seate position creates a great deal of load for a disc. Thats a fact. Adding weight to it just creates more load.
For situations such as specific short term rehab for post surgical, yes machines.
They have place but limited.
Check out the info on www.functionalmovement.com

Don BErry DC RKC NASM

[taai gihk yahn]

Disc for seated squat machines, Shoulders for seated presses of those too many to count!
as for shoulders, how does sitting contribute to dysfunction any more than standing does? most shoulders are related to thoracic dysfunction, so axial loading really isn't an issue here...


For situations such as specific short term rehab for post surgical, yes machines.
They have place but limited.
I believe that is exactly what I said as well; are you repeating it by way of demonstrating agreement with me, or where you under the impression that I was not of that opinion?


I am not stretching the fact that the seate position creates a great deal of load for a disc. Thats a fact. Adding weight to it just creates more load.
you appear to have misread my post; perhaps if you re-read it a bit more carefully, you will notice that I did not say it was stretch that sitting loads the L/S disc moreso than any other position, which you seem to think I did based on your response; that is obviously well documented (I think that the data was most famously presented in White and Panjabi, if memory serves); what I did say was a stretch, was your seeming opinion that seated weight training was necessarilly a contributor to disc dysfunction - notice that I didn't say it couldn't be, but from your post you seemed to imply that all seated weight training contributes directly to disc dysfunction, no matter what; and this I do not agree with, because there are, as you doubtless know, many other factors that contribute to disc dysfunction, such as usage, general postural habitus, degree of being sedentary, etc.; in other words, I think it's rather apparent that there are plenty of people out there who can weight train in sitting and not have adverse disc effects; my point was that I beieve you are over-generalizing to suggest otherwise, and in fact I think that doing seated weight training is not even in the top 5, possibly 10 reasons that disc get messed up; again, I am not saying it can't contribute, but I think that it's not nearly the thing about which to be most concerned overall


www.functionalmovement.com[/url]
well, it looks pretty good - although it's a little hard to tell exactly what they are doing in terms of specific testing, since they don't show any of their "Big 7" or whatever they call it; but since it's run by 2 PT's I can pretty much guess where they have culled their stuff from and how they are thinking about things - probably a lot of Janda & Sahrman thrown in w/some IPA functional and PNF-based stuff (Gregg & Vicki Johnson); actually one of their instructors is attending the same DO school I went to in Canada some years ago, so if they are hip to osteopathy they might even be throwing in some Michigan State-type stuff (Mitchell, Greenman);
I would have to see the specific stuff they do to be able to comment further; but if they are trying to think in an integrated manner, that's good (and about time, given the way most PT's stil tend to look at the body...)

[donbdc]

as for shoulders, how does sitting contribute to dysfunction any more than standing does? most shoulders are related to thoracic dysfunction, so axial loading really isn't an issue here...

The issue here isn't the axial load as much as it is many of the apparatus have poor height adjustments and don't allow for proper mechics. I would much rather have a patient/ client do free weights for propriceptive stimulation and much better range of motion.

I believe that is exactly what I said as well; are you repeating it by way of demonstrating agreement with me, or where you under the impression that I was not of that opinion?

I was indeed agreeing w/ you.

you appear to have misread my post; perhaps if you re-read it a bit more carefully, you will notice that I did not say it was stretch that sitting loads the L/S disc moreso than any other position, which you seem to think I did based on your response; that is obviously well documented (I think that the data was most famously presented in White and Panjabi, if memory serves); what I did say was a stretch, was your seeming opinion that seated weight training was necessarilly a contributor to disc dysfunction - notice that I didn't say it couldn't be, but from your post you seemed to imply that all seated weight training contributes directly to disc dysfunction, no matter what; and this I do not agree with, because there are, as you doubtless know, many other factors that contribute to disc dysfunction, such as usage, general postural habitus, degree of being sedentary, etc.; in other words, I think it's rather apparent that there are plenty of people out there who can weight train in sitting and not have adverse disc effects; my point was that I beieve you are over-generalizing to suggest otherwise, and in fact I think that doing seated weight training is not even in the top 5, possibly 10 reasons that disc get messed up; again, I am not saying it can't contribute, but I think that it's not nearly the thing about which to be most concerned overall.

I didn't mean to overgeneralize and I did, sorry. Point being we both probably see many patients who are very sedentary which is really the #1 cause of dysfuntion. Then they are told to go excercise by their MD, they go to a gym sit in a chair and press weight and hurt themselves. They have done nothing to activate their core and develop stability and fitness.
I really am not the greates at putting my thought on type at times as I am writing btw. patients and in a rush. So plz forgive me.


well, it looks pretty good - although it's a little hard to tell exactly what they are doing in terms of specific testing, since they don't show any of their "Big 7" or whatever they call it; but since it's run by 2 PT's I can pretty much guess where they have culled their stuff from and how they are thinking about things - probably a lot of Janda & Sahrman thrown in w/some IPA functional and PNF-based stuff (Gregg & Vicki Johnson); actually one of their instructors is attending the same DO school I went to in Canada some years ago, so if they are hip to osteopathy they might even be throwing in some Michigan State-type stuff (Mitchell, Greenman);
I would have to see the specific stuff they do to be able to comment further; but if they are trying to think in an integrated manner, that's good (and about time, given the way most PT's stil tend to look at the body...)

You hit it on the head!
here are a few links http://www.functionalmovement.com/SITE/aboutfms/facultybios/graycook.php
http://www.begin2dig.com/2008/08/ck-fms-you-gotta-do-this-its-about.html
I had a great vid but I can't find it.
I work W/ a DO, Chris Hardy out of Hopkins. We get together every few weeks train and compare manual techniches and rehab points.
Peace
Don Berry DC RKC NAsm

[donbdc]

Some more info on KB's and Cook.
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwat ch%253Fv%253D75-c_xYHZHQ&h=f268738db5983090b7d231855d7744ea&ref=share

[donbdc]

Some more KB info:http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/01/prweb3486484.htm

Don Berry DC RKC