how much can one learn from practice a set

[Hendrik]

how much can one learn from practice a set?

What is practicing a set mean?

What do you learn? what skill? and what to master?

Care to share?

[k gledhill]

its painfully simple with the right information...:D

[Hendrik]

Any value at all practicing set?

[sanjuro_ronin]

sometimes things are so obvious.
http://xectrik.net/images/motivationalposters/jiu-jitsu-poster.jpg

[Lucas]

what can you learn doing a form? depends on how many times you do it :p

[t_niehoff]

how much can one learn from practice a set?

What is practicing a set mean?

What do you learn? what skill? and what to master?

Care to share?

Forms or linked sets are simply a remnant of a really poor teaching method. Practicing a set means you are wasting time.

[Lucas]

i would say thats a well thought out personal opinion that likely works perfectly in your life.

however for me personally, the times that i practice one of the few sets i still practice, its definately not a waste of my time. i love it, its fun, gets my heart rate up in a few seconds, i could go on and on, seriously i could. so for me, no not a waste of time at all.

its as fullfilling as listening to a young childs innocent laugh. neither do i find a waste of my time. just all depends on what you are looking for in life.

oh i suppose i should mention i dont practice wing chun sets.

:D

[t_niehoff]

however for me personally, the times that i practice one of the few sets i still practice, its definately not a waste of my time. i love it, its fun, gets my heart rate up in a few seconds, i could go on and on, seriously i could. so for me, no not a waste of time at all.
:D

That's cool. Some people like folk dancing.

[anerlich]

Some people like folk dancing.

Many people like horizontal folk dancing.

Probably not bada$$ enough for you though, T.

[Lucas]

And some people watch tv, drink beer, have too much sex and take prescription chemical drugs. i dont do any of that, id rather do a form or two instead. better for my over all health hands down. :D

[anerlich]

And some people watch tv, drink beer, have too much sex and take prescription chemical drugs. i dont, id rather do a form or two instead. better for my over all health hands down.

I'll forgo the prescription drugs (what about the unprescribed ones?), but I'll take the TV, beer and too much sex (none of the nerds on here would be getting much, though, let alone too much).

I can do all those, and forms too!

[Lucas]

I'll forgo the prescription drugs (what about the unprescribed ones?), but I'll take the TV, beer and too much sex (none of the nerds on here would be getting much, though, let alone too much).

I can do all those, and forms too!

rofl, thats just it, you CAN do it all. who spends 100% of their awake training? i certainly dont. besides the couple of shaolin sets i maintain take roughly 30 seconds to do. unless your a b!tch ass....

actually i just realized, if i cut my showers short by 2 minutes and finish my morning craps 2 minutes early i could do 4 routines without losing any productivity!

[anerlich]

rofl, thats just it, you CAN do it all. who spends 100% of their awake training?

Exactly. There is life after KFO.

[Lucas]

Exactly. There is life after KFO.

hahahahahahha wait, there is???..... /cry

i actually only post online because im chained to a computer for work.

[anerlich]

i actually only post online because im chained to a computer for work.

You and me both, though one of my NY resolutions was to be as slack as possible at work and not get fired.

And it does nothing for our fighting skills.

[Lucas]

You and me both, though one of my NY resolutions was to be as slack as possible at work and not get fired.

And it does nothing for our fighting skills.

what ever sucker, my typing increases my massive iron finger skills!

;):p

[k gledhill]

Forms or linked sets are simply a remnant of a really poor teaching method. Practicing a set means you are wasting time.

IF you dont understand what its for....agreed if you dont know then you are wasting many years.

VT requires that you know the centerline and the relationship of your elbows /forearms/wrists to it.
Facing a target in motion requires facing it as it moves using chum kil stances, moving.

SLT & CK the fighting bubble

Striking , its pretty simple. Coupled with methods to recover striking again, while constantly attacking.

A set is a solo workout thats all...time alone, operative word being 'alone'....the reasons are simple.
The ONLY time we ever place our elbows /forearms/wrists in such acute angles is while doing the Sil Lim Tao.
A major reason the SLT fails is the lack of JUM sao in the first section of tan~huen~?jum?~wu~ fok....
Tan & Jum are essential partners, like oil & water , positive & negative, Yin & Yang, in & out....
no jum and we have , oil, positive,yin,out...no balance of arm energy. No cohesive connection to make the system function outside chi-sao games.

The very start of the SLT set requires that we move wrists in front of the chest xing the centerline extend along it to full extension aiming high as a 'strikes' 'double man sao' , intersecting the centerline/strike line and then moving the hands back along it , wrists still intersecting the line moving to 'double wu - sao', not high low gaun sao's.
By doing double high man and double rear vu , we create an impenetrable line with either arm whether it leads or follows along the line.
Add the duality of strikes that both protect the line from being opened and strike forwards without skipping a beat ..and you have simultaneous attacking and defensive actions as you STRIKE in simple attacking strategies.

The strategy is simple , dont stand still, and dont stand in front of two potential lines of incoming force with a lead leg , iow, avoid being in the middle of a guys swings from r or l arm & legs...maintain a fighting distance to be able to reach the guy in a step, move or allow the movement of the opponent to gain positions along 1/2 of the centerline, iow the centerline divides your opponent down the middle...attack either 1/2 as he/she presents it , angle , shift, move , grab and turn them , whatever to gain the " 1/2 person " before you...if you lose the positions dont chase doing lead leg centerline attacks, regaing your side stance and face off again for the same ideas....% wise you gain.

btw
The tut sao aka shaving hands in the latter sections is done high not aimed low, by doing this simple action we recover the extended hand 'man sao' back to rear 'wu sao' so that the line is intersected by the rear hand 'wu' . Allowing unstoppable attacking actions from the rear hand and recovering the x'ed bridge without using the infamous LOP sao aka known as "how I learned to fight one arm with my 2 hands ALWAYS !" thats not a skill.

The intercepting line

so the 2 sets SLT & CK are your SOLO sets to improve certain required attributes , specific to the VT system of fighting.

Bil Gee set is to develop methods to regain the flow or lines that have been interupted, your striking wrist has been grabbed or both, a common when I have had fights, guys will grab whatever is in front of them before they try to hit you...bg shows wrist regaining actions, regaining lifted arms, and other advanced actions for Knives.

If you learn to flow like water bilgee is simply a way to recover the direction of the streams flow without taking too long ; ) iow you attack in a flow or cant flow at all , so you need to make the water flow again...

[t_niehoff]

IF you dont understand what its for....agreed if you dont know then you are wasting many years.


It doesn't matter what you "understand" -- using forms to learn or develop dynamic (open) skills simply doesn't work. It is a throwback to a time where people didn't have a good idea of how to effectively teach these skills.

Why don't people in sports use forms? Why don't we have baseball forms or basketball forms or boxing forms or wrestling forms if forms are so useful? Because they aren't necessary and they wouldn't be helpful.

[hunt1]

Why don't we have baseball forms or basketball forms or boxing forms or wrestling forms if forms are so useful? Because they aren't necessary and they wouldn't be helpful.


Actually you are only correct if the only definition of a form is a long series of multiple moves. If you look at san sik as forms, as many do then you are very wrong.
. Baseball - just working your swing,working on your stride=san sik. Everything in wrestling can be practiced solo and good wrestlers do it. Shoot to single= san sik for example.

The key is how you train not what you train. Take a punch and add movement no different than a boxer working his jab and footwork solo as a general example.

[t_niehoff]

Why don't we have baseball forms or basketball forms or boxing forms or wrestling forms if forms are so useful? Because they aren't necessary and they wouldn't be helpful.


Actually you are only correct if the only definition of a form is a long series of multiple moves. If you look at san sik as forms, as many do then you are very wrong.
. Baseball - just working your swing,working on your stride=san sik. Everything in wrestling can be practiced solo and good wrestlers do it. Shoot to single= san sik for example.

The key is how you train not what you train. Take a punch and add movement no different than a boxer working his jab and footwork solo as a general example.

I agree with you about san sik if, and this is the critical "if", your san sik accurately reflects what you are really doing in the activity itself and you are aware of the context of the skill (what you are trying to do). As such, your examples drawn from sport fit that criteria. And if we recognize that, then I have no problem. Then you have that 1 to 1 to 1 correspondence. In most cases in WCK, however, you've people practicing movements in the air without being aware of the context. And in that case, they are simply folk dancing.

[k gledhill]

Why don't we have baseball forms or basketball forms or boxing forms or wrestling forms if forms are so useful? Because they aren't necessary and they wouldn't be helpful.


Actually you are only correct if the only definition of a form is a long series of multiple moves. If you look at san sik as forms, as many do then you are very wrong.
. Baseball - just working your swing,working on your stride=san sik. Everything in wrestling can be practiced solo and good wrestlers do it. Shoot to single= san sik for example.

The key is how you train not what you train. Take a punch and add movement no different than a boxer working his jab and footwork solo as a general example.

we isolate actions for perfection when coaching dont we ? the sets are these actions strung together..like I said YOU dont understand it so YOUR wasting your time doing it dont bother...
If you dont understand something why talk like you do ? oh yeah your a lawyer :D

[Wayfaring]

we isolate actions for perfection when coaching dont we ? the sets are these actions strung together..like I said YOU dont understand it so YOUR wasting your time doing it dont bother...
If you dont understand something why talk like you do ? oh yeah your a lawyer :D

One thing I never understood about ANY TMA forms - they really aren't like isolation drills. To be most accurate they seem most similar to dance choreography.

The fact that they contain fundamental movements of a MA seem to be the only reason for their existence. You don't see them fought that way.

[punchdrunk]

imo different forms from different people have different purposes. I also think forms should constitute a very small % of your Wing Chun training, but I do not beleive they are useless, simply way over emphasized. Their the easiest way to train, but they are also one of the least effective. Seems to me in most schools the best students at sparring worry the least about forms, and vice versa.

[Hendrik]

for a good TCMA style, form is the soul of the art.

It includes the training of the physical, mind, Qi medirians activation which is describing the art's body and fundamental of its application. Similar to processing different type of iron for different characteristics and usage, with different ingradients, steps, and timing.


The trouble of todays' view on form is a single physical dimension view according to one's OPINION where the full picture and characteristics of the art is missing and so does changing the form without knowing the big picture distoted and distroy the form totally.




For example, SLT/SNT, the proper way of practice is NEVER NEVER EVER USE any force exessive to be able to lift the body loose and expand.
See, how we do it today? forward pressure.... tensing.....etc. lock in the centerline....etc

Sure all of these forwrd pressure, lock into centerline is derived from some one's experience in some figthings incidents or applications... but that kill the art. it is a wrong thing for cultivating SLT/SNT but the arguement always is "oh, that fight better."

Well, what to say?

with a dead eagle and make it a mummy which looks mean, put it in the living room is not the same with a bird which can really fly.


But honest and seriously, if you dont practice your SLT/SNT nearly effortless, and stuck in your YJKYM in those triangle structure....etc. look like a piramid that is dead stuffs.


get rid of those forward pressure, those are poison to trap you and give the grapper the lead to take you down.....

real WCK is like a boomerang, it cuts if one grasp. it cuts retrogradely similar to a sickle if you hug it.

and again, if you make that forward pressure your habit, you missing that boomerang sickle power.

without that sickle power there is no WCK. any one can get close to your body and you are dead.

Remember, WCK is famous for its close body? yes, that retrograde Sickle in 1850, but is it gone.

It is not Hung gar, it is not CLF, it is not SMT... it is WCK because it retrograde and sickling like a boomerang, if it missed it retrograde back and cut again from different or opposite angle. it is chain effect but not like those chain punch like machine gun bullets. It is swift, continous boomeranging.

That is WCK. that is what the form of WCK cultivate. and now, how many see this?




I expected all kind of arguements.

OK, you win I wont argue. but seriously obsevere and examine it to see what I said making any sense or not? and can your form give you that retrograding, sickling, boomerang power?



I dont like verbal communication because it is extemely limited and mind speculation limite
if you know chinese, this is my message on this topic in multi dimension. read the lyrics, feel the music, view the motion....etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr4vj7mk&feature=related

[k gledhill]

One thing I never understood about ANY TMA forms - they really aren't like isolation drills. To be most accurate they seem most similar to dance choreography.

The fact that they contain fundamental movements of a MA seem to be the only reason for their existence. You don't see them fought that way.

I repeat if YOU dont understand it then how can you make sense of it?

each action serves to develop a a specific action/position/idea, that can be done one on one with no forms and direct use ie , jut can be performed on an arm rather than in a solo form in the air.
It can also be done on the dummy ...I can also show how to fight with it first then how the student can do 'homework' isolating it in a form or on its own.
WSL was well known for using a blackboard in his school to write students personal mistakes to better themselves ...philipp , bad wu sao positions...keving bad bong etc......everyone was on the board. Isolation in fighting drills, forms...then fighting itself...if the mistakes appear in free-fighting we have a way to isolate a bad elbow position, without the other guy trying to take your head off as you attempt to rectify the mistake....

the levels of isolation are limitless...

Ive seen commercials for ways to improve your baseball swing , they show kids practicing single actions over and over before adding it to the chain of events that make up a simple swing of a bat....sure its easy to throw a ball and say hit it...but then an experienced coach takes a look at your swing and he can isolate drills to improve certain things ...break it down into parts....

Terence doesnt have enough specific knowledge of the system to criticize it, so he generalizes a lot.....typical lawyer arguments .Talks tennis though :D
but you dont know VT.

[sihing]

I repeat if YOU dont understand it then how can you make sense of it?

each action serves to develop a a specific action/position/idea, that can be done one on one with no forms and direct use ie , jut can be performed on an arm rather than in a solo form in the air.
It can also be done on the dummy ...I can also show how to fight with it first then how the student can do 'homework' isolating it in a form or on its own.
WSL was well known for using a blackboard in his school to write students personal mistakes to better themselves ...philipp , bad wu sao positions...keving bad bong etc......everyone was on the board. Isolation in fighting drills, forms...then fighting itself...if the mistakes appear in free-fighting we have a way to isolate a bad elbow position, without the other guy trying to take your head off as you attempt to rectify the mistake....

the levels of isolation are limitless...

Ive seen commercials for ways to improve your baseball swing , they show kids practicing single actions over and over before adding it to the chain of events that make up a simple swing of a bat....sure its easy to throw a ball and say hit it...but then an experienced coach takes a look at your swing and he can isolate drills to improve certain things ...break it down into parts....

Terence doesnt have enough specific knowledge of the system to criticize it, so he generalizes a lot.....typical lawyer arguments .Talks tennis though :D
but you dont know VT.

I agree with your post Kev. It's about understanding what the form is there for. If you just go out and say to a student, this is how it is done apply it now and then have someone throw a punch at them, the circumstances of this will not allow it to be taught correctly. If someone jabs at me, and I use the fok concept (over the bridge arm, making it go below mine without pushing down), and it's not working due to position or muscluar tension, whatever, I can perfect that subtly in the form. We perfect it there, so that in application it is somewhat correct. But the form is just the beginning, the planting of the idea or Siu Nim Tau, next we have to drill it to bring it alive, and then learn to apply it, all progressions build upon the other one and can be used to refine any mistakes made at each level.

James

[Phil Redmond]

Forms or linked sets are simply a remnant of a really poor teaching method. Practicing a set means you are wasting time.

You amaze me at how clueless you are. Even the best musicians practice scales. Ever hear of Mavis Beacon? Pro ball players practice set drills. BJJ Black Belts practice drills. I could go one but you'll still try to convert people with words instead of example. From now on unless you say something really ridiculous I won't reply. Oops, I guess I'll be replying often.

[t_niehoff]

You amaze me at how clueless you are. Even the best musicians practice scales. Ever hear of Mavis Beacon? Pro ball players practice set drills. BJJ Black Belts practice drills. I could go one but you'll still try to convert people with words instead of example. From now on unless you say something really ridiculous I won't reply. Oops, I guess I'll be replying often.

Forms are not "scales". When you practice scales you are actually hitting notes and playing the instrument -- a closer analogy to forms would be practicing scales in the air without an instrument. Want to point me to the musician that does that? ;)

Yes, I know athletes do drills, but they do drills that reflect what they really do in playing the game.

And as I said before Phil, why don't we leave leading by example to the people who have proved themselves to be very, very good instead of people like us?

[t_niehoff]

I agree with your post Kev. It's about understanding what the form is there for.

OK, let's say you or I or Kevin have some "idea" what the form is "for" -- how do we know whether our "idea" is valid or not? How do I know, for example, that I am not just projecting my idea/theory onto the form?

Why is it that you can have one idea of what the form is for, Kevin a different idea, and me yet another?

When you practice a movement in the air -- how can anyone say what that movement is really for?

Perhaps, all it is meant to do is teach you the movement itself and nothing more. And that through our practice (application), we give it meaning.

[k gledhill]

not the point ...every coach/student will have a method of getting up the mountain....your choice as to what path you take, and decide if the view your coach has is the highest one available...what he sees may not be the view another has reached....so...

walk on

[t_niehoff]

not the point ...every coach/student will have a method of getting up the mountain....your choice as to what path you take, and decide if the view your coach has is the highest one available...what he sees may not be the view another has reached....so...

walk on

You didn't get the point. It has nothing to do with mountains.

[TenTigers]

T-you know more about Gung-Fu than you do about music it seems.
Actually, as a musician, practicing scales, whether or not you produce a sound, is highly productive. It trains position, and develops dexterity, coordination, speed, and strength of the fingers. Practicing legato, or staccato, each develop different qualties of energy.

[bennyvt]

so first its cause people don't know why they do it. When that fails its because its not done in the right way so you are saying when tiger woods is just doing the exercises when he wanted to improve his swing. Which when i say it he was standing there swingigog the club this is the same as when he plays. So when a grappler practices his positioning and they just roll this would be a set or drill to practice a move when not under great stress. Ie how every one learns. You start just by doing the note in the air. Slowly then work up to doing it at real pace, with real competition. Most will still keep some drills or just use them to fix problems...

[TenTigers]

ok, without this being another pick on Terrance thread, you need to address one thing BEFORE having an intelligent conversation about this, and that is;
why are there forms? What is a form? What is it for?
(If you are going under the false as$umption that a form is an imaginary fight against one or multiple opponents-which is what you tell children, then you fail.)
If you cannot answer these questions, then you have no business in this conversation. Really. It's like listening to Tom Cruise speaking his mind on world issues.

[t_niehoff]

T-you know more about Gung-Fu than you do about music it seems.
Actually, as a musician, practicing scales, whether or not you produce a sound, is highly productive. It trains position, and develops dexterity, coordination, speed, and strength of the fingers. Practicing legato, or staccato, each develop different qualties of energy.

OK, but are you practicing that movement in the air, or on your insturment.

My point is that all our actions in WCK are to be performed with/against an opponent (our instrument, as it were). So, if you want to practice position, dexterity, coordination, speed, strength, etc. it only makes sense to practice those things on your instrument, not in the air.

[bawang]

most of the concepts isnt in the form its in the fist poem taught alongside every technique
any martial art family that was rich has a detailed fist manual

if your styles family doesnt publicly release the fist manual something is wrong

forms can only teach u so much, especially a obscure esoteric form that looks nothing like actual fighting with no explanation of the movements

[CFT]

Good response Terence, but can one not just replace "air" with a resistance mechanism rather than a live training partner, e.g. wooden dummy, heavy bag, resistance bands?

My thoughts on the WCK forms are that they formally record the WCK actions and the applicable ranges: hieght, width, depth. Developing the "gung" and other attributes come via other exercises/drills.

Just my opinion.

[Lucas]

I'm just curious, what are 5 famous chinese martial art styles that have zero forms in the curriculum?

[Wayfaring]

I repeat if YOU dont understand it then how can you make sense of it?


This is such a typical TMA mindset. "Go do your forms until you understand them".
Many sifus teach this way. It promotes the cluelessness we see today regarding martial arts and the huge gap we see today between arts that train for sports-like competition and those that don't.

I still practice WC forms. I use them to doublecheck different structural alignments during technique. They also have a meditative value. They also have internals value.

But again, the question remains, and it is not becuase "I" don't understand it.

Why aren't forms anything remotely like fighting?

[Wayfaring]

T-you know more about Gung-Fu than you do about music it seems.
Actually, as a musician, practicing scales, whether or not you produce a sound, is highly productive. It trains position, and develops dexterity, coordination, speed, and strength of the fingers. Practicing legato, or staccato, each develop different qualties of energy.

Because in music you practice how you play. You do scales, phrasing, arpeggio sequences like you solo.

"If you see it practiced, you see it played" IS true in music.

But, "If you see it taught, you see it fought" IS NOT true in martial arts.

[t_niehoff]

Good response Terence, but can one not just replace "air" with a resistance mechanism rather than a live training partner, e.g. wooden dummy, heavy bag, resistance bands?


See below.



My thoughts on the WCK forms are that they formally record the WCK actions and the applicable ranges: hieght, width, depth. Developing the "gung" and other attributes come via other exercises/drills.

Just my opinion.

I agree with you. I too think the movement/actions in the forms are the proto-typical tools of WCK, arranged thematically. My point is that practicing performing tools in that air cannot in any way teach us how to use the tools or what the tools can be used for because the tool isn't doing anything in the air (except going through the motions). Show a nonWCK person the forms and ask them to decipher/interpret the movements/action and they would have no idea. And that's because the "idea" comes from our practice, from trying to use those actions/movements and not any form.

So there are no "concepts" in the form -- the "concepts" come from our using the tools.

Or, from being told what to believe.

[Hendrik]

Show a nonWCK person the forms and ask them to decipher/interpret the movements/action and they would have no idea. And that's because the "idea" comes from our practice, from trying to use those actions/movements and not any form.

So there are no "concepts" in the form -- the "concepts" come from our using the tools.

Or, from being told what to believe.



in chinese, this is the evident of an art which has gone with the wind and up for interpretation.

[Vajramusti]

in chinese, this is the evident of an art which has gone with the wind and up for interpretation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not necessarily true Hendrik.Here and there the art is doing well. There is wing chun outside of KFO and internet forums. And many frequent posters are not really doing wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And many frequent posters are not really doing wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

You know, I would agree. Because wing chun was designed as a fighting art, and the vast majority of people practicing it do zero fighting or training for fighting.

[Hendrik]

most of the concepts isnt in the form its in the fist poem taught alongside every technique
any martial art family that was rich has a detailed fist manual

if your styles family doesnt publicly release the fist manual something is wrong

forms can only teach u so much, especially a obscure esoteric form that looks nothing like actual fighting with no explanation of the movements


Very True but most would not like to admit the fist manual is lost.

[k gledhill]

You didn't get the point. It has nothing to do with mountains.
great comeback...typically you have left the point and now try to talk mountains ...how is it that deep well froggy ?:D

[k gledhill]

This is such a typical TMA mindset. "Go do your forms until you understand them".
Many sifus teach this way. It promotes the cluelessness we see today regarding martial arts and the huge gap we see today between arts that train for sports-like competition and those that don't.

I still practice WC forms. I use them to doublecheck different structural alignments during technique. They also have a meditative value. They also have internals value.

But again, the question remains, and it is not becuase "I" don't understand it.

Why aren't forms anything remotely like fighting?

I teach fighting along with other drills, iow you learn to fight first ...novel eh? show a guy how to move the objectives...weapons , tactics on the first day !
explanations with action , fighting...hitting and kicking like fighting :D ever seen that? when you asked what is VT ? or did you get the tan da , pak da crap ...or BONG LOP CHOP :D aka how to be slower than you would normally :D:D:D


because you havent had them explained as you learn to fight...you have probably been shown a form alone and told to get on with it ..many get this way...abstract information due to LACK OF UNDERSTANDING :D
how many years have you wasted trying to understand from doing a form alone ?:D

Im only trying to help you, if you want to carry on banging your head against the wall of 'forms' and how they dont work ..I wont stop you

in fact this whole forum is kind of laughable, terence runs riot , guys *****ing about each others posts...

im out a' here
have a good climb

[t_niehoff]

I teach fighting . . .

No you don't. From your posts it is clear you don't fight. You wouldn't be spewing the nonsense you do if you fought. And if your students fought, they would see for themselves what you are teaching is nonsense since it wouldn't work.

You might fool the people who don't fight, but you won't fool the people who do with your nonsense.

[anerlich]

Very True but most would not like to admit the fist manual is lost.

I wouldn't admit to having a fisting manual in the first place. :p

And that's pretty much where this thread, like too many others, has ended up.

[duende]

I wouldn't admit to having a fisting manual in the first place. :p

And that's pretty much where this thread, like too many others, has ended up.

Definitely don't want to hear about where it was lost!

[Lucas]

i was learning wing chun for a while several years ago, just kind of taste testing you know. anyhow, i ended up learning 3 forms, from what i noticed the wing chun forms are pretty different from, say long fist, or many other CMA routines.

those of you that are on this thread, is your form experience soley from wing chun? if not what other cma styles have you experimented with / trained in, and what was your over all comparison between wing chun and other methods of form usage/development?

work day over, peace out!

[anerlich]

I've learned forms from xingyi, bagua, taiji, CLF, Northern Sil Lum.

WC forms to me seem to me more set in structure, and, well, formalised, than many others. In that way (though not really any other) they are similar to xingyi. Bagua is also formalised, though is also almost competely different in most other respects. The other forms in general are much more free in structure and work on a wide range of angles and directions.

[Wayfaring]

because you havent had them explained as you learn to fight...you have probably been shown a form alone and told to get on with it ..many get this way...abstract information due to LACK OF UNDERSTANDING :D
how many years have you wasted trying to understand from doing a form alone ?:D

Im only trying to help you, if you want to carry on banging your head against the wall of 'forms' and how they dont work ..I wont stop you


This post is a bunch of mindless drivel. You absolutely will not ever even look at forms from a different perspective to question them.

The WCK forms I studied are HFY. In that system, the forms are part of an overall system that is VERY WELL EXPLAINED. Not only that, there are drills, exercises, structure and energy tests all that go along with a particular form. I certainly did not have teachers that said "go do your forms" until you learn them.

You are about as far off base in your assumptions about me as you could be.

In fact, after further reflection upon it, my current viewpoint is that the forms I learned in HFY are more about preserving the overall system then they are about teaching fighting skills. Like a chapter in a book - the form, exercises, challenges all package something up together for preservation.

The fact that you can't critically look at forms and explain anything like that is quite an indicator that you train in a way that is part of the problem. Just drink the kool-aid and never figure out the difference between what you use forms for and training fighting.

That approach produces people like Asbel Cancio - completely deluded about what will really work in a real live encounter.

[bennyvt]

hey wayfarring i don't get yous arguement. You have both said it shouldn't just be go and do it. Each bit of the form comes with exercise, drills, ways to test it etc. But they can't be solely relied on. Seems like you said the same things.

[t_niehoff]

In fact, after further reflection upon it, my current viewpoint is that the forms I learned in HFY are more about preserving the overall system then they are about teaching fighting skills. Like a chapter in a book - the form, exercises, challenges all package something up together for preservation.


That's a sound POV.

I think to really appreciate the question- how much can you learn from a set -- we need to START not with what we want or hope or have been told we can learn from a set, but to look at the question from the standpoint of how we, as human beings, acquire and develop physical skills. Once we appreciate how that is done, the process involved in developing overall fighting skill, then we can look at various aspects of our classical curriculum and see how those things fit into that process. It's like asking what a particular cog does in a old watch -- without first knowing how the overall watch works, you can't really say what a particular cog does to make the watch work.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;985371]This post is a bunch of mindless drivel. You absolutely will not ever even look at forms from a different perspective to question them.

The WCK forms I studied are HFY. In that system, the forms are part of an overall system that is VERY WELL EXPLAINED. Not only that, there are drills, exercises, structure and energy tests all that go along with a particular form. I certainly did not have teachers that said "go do your forms" until you learn them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't do HFY and I am not commenting on the forms of that style.Those first generation students of Ip Man who had substantial exposure to Ip Man's teaching corrected the student's forms in detail. Each section of the slt form as well as the chum kiu and the biu jee among other things have specific developmental purposes- for fighting skills. Simply knowing the sequences is not learning a form IMO. Sections of each form can be further developed separately. The form motions can show up in chi sao. Good eyes can see how much of what forms have been taught and learned well. Good teachers can show fighting applications of the forms and the experienced student discovers additional applications specially those that work for that individual. And forms have to be supplemented with contact and application.

No one is forced to learn wing chun. There are different approaches to fighting. When there are gaps in one's learning folks understandably try to import various things from elsewhere -not always seamlessly.

Gledhill can be lengthy and wordy- and I don't always agree with him-but you(W) are being unfair to him.He has been exposed to decent wing chun and he does have actual fighting experience.
So has bennyvt, Phil R , Chusali and several others.The list is incomplete. Hendrik knows much but is not always clear or correct IMO and has his own views but is mistaken in thinking that behavior can be redirected by posts on this
increasingly silly forum which does little to explain wc or to have reasonable ego subdued discussion of the differences in POV or of wc.

I just ignore some frequent posters who just repeat the same old things.Even a broken clock
can be right twice a day- why watch it repeatedly? .Reacting to these frequent posters has derailed so many threads.Hendrik started this thread inviting a predictable disaster- I hope that he closes/removes this thread.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

Those first generation students of Ip Man who had substantial exposure to Ip Man's teaching corrected the student's forms in detail.


Yes, that's very true -- it is the chinese way of teaching. Rene used to refer to the example of teaching calligraphy, that the student would exactly copy his teacher's strokes for 10 or 20 years to master calligraphy.

The problem is that while this is a great way to develop closed skills (closed skills are skills where the environment doesn't change and skill is in how closely you can mimic an idealized model) we know today that this is an extremely poor way to learn or develop open skills (where the environment is continually changing and you need to adjust what you do continually) like those in fighting.

So, while Yip and others taught that way, that doesn't make it good or sound. And, the argument that's-how-they-used-to-do-it is never a valid reason.



Each section of the slt form as well as the chum kiu and the biu jee among other things have specific developmental purposes- for fighting skills. Simply knowing the sequences is not learning a form IMO. Sections of each form can be further developed separately. The form motions can show up in chi sao. Good eyes can see how much of what forms have been taught and learned well. Good teachers can show fighting applications of the forms and the experienced student discovers additional applications specially those that work for that individual. And forms have to be supplemented with contact and application.


People can learn WCK without forms --some branches of WCK have done away with forms. In fact, the functional martial arts of today, boxing, wrestling, etc. don't have sets. Yet, many of the people practicing those arts have developed well beyond the level of any WCK person. So, if these sets contain "specific developmental purposes" as you say, it's clear we don't need those developmental purposes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In fact, after further reflection upon it, my current viewpoint is that the forms I learned in HFY are more about preserving the overall system then they are about teaching fighting skills. Like a chapter in a book - the form, exercises, challenges all package something up together for preservation.


It can be argued that is the case from most, if not all, systems that have solo forms.

[Wayfaring]

I don't do HFY and I am not commenting on the forms of that style.Those first generation students of Ip Man who had substantial exposure to Ip Man's teaching corrected the student's forms in detail. Each section of the slt form as well as the chum kiu and the biu jee among other things have specific developmental purposes- for fighting skills. Simply knowing the sequences is not learning a form IMO. Sections of each form can be further developed separately. The form motions can show up in chi sao. Good eyes can see how much of what forms have been taught and learned well. Good teachers can show fighting applications of the forms and the experienced student discovers additional applications specially those that work for that individual. And forms have to be supplemented with contact and application.

Undoubtedly forms can be corrected, perfected, etc. In some of the kung fu tournaments I participated in the wushu dancers would clean up the forms divisions with beautiful intricate forms with and without weapons. There is a whole organization of martial arts called ironically enough "Extreme Martial Arts" - XMA which has developed the forms aspects of martial arts to an unparalleled acrobatic height. Here's an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUh8S_i82wk

And yet there is a huge disparity between the movements that a martial artist performs in forms and the movmenents that are performed in a fighting environment.

I've been shown the "hidden fighting application" technique in forms dating back to TKD forms as a teenager. That doesn't change the disparity or bridge the gap between forms skillsets and fighting skillsets.

This argument is not new. It was a major one of Bruce Lee, who many WCK people still use as an incentive to attract people to train WCK.



No one is forced to learn wing chun. There are different approaches to fighting. When there are gaps in one's learning folks understandably try to import various things from elsewhere -not always seamlessly.

This actually is one of the major problems with popular wing chun and how it is trained. There are "different approaches to fighting". There are "different approaches to training to fight". Some of them are effective. Some of them are ineffective. Many times gaps are there due to the huge disparity in what is trained and what is fought.



Gledhill can be lengthy and wordy- and I don't always agree with him-but you(W) are being unfair to him.He has been exposed to decent wing chun and he does have actual fighting experience.
So has bennyvt, Phil R , Chusali and several others.The list is incomplete. Hendrik knows much but is not always clear or correct IMO and has his own views but is mistaken in thinking that behavior can be redirected by posts on this
increasingly silly forum which does little to explain wc or to have reasonable ego subdued discussion of the differences in POV or of wc.

Why don't you read gledhill's comments to me again that I quoted and tell me how "unfair" I'm being to him. If someone wants to have an intelligent conversation with me I'm more than willing. If they want to patronize me while making huge inaccurate assumptions, then the response might be "unfair".

I also have no problem being "unfair" if it can get someone to take an honest look at the disparity between what they are training and what they are fighting and do something about it.



I just ignore some frequent posters who just repeat the same old things.Even a broken clock
can be right twice a day- why watch it repeatedly? .Reacting to these frequent posters has derailed so many threads.Hendrik started this thread inviting a predictable disaster- I hope that he closes/removes this thread.

joy chaudhuri

Sure there is repetition here. There is also value here. It has to be extracted from among that which is of no value. No different than anything else in life. Hendrik as well. It's a good question - how much can you learn from a set?

[JPinAZ]

For the most part, this is becoming a pretty decent thread! Dave, great posts! Suprisingly, T - the same :)

[Lucas]

It can be argued that is the case from most, if not all, systems that have solo forms.

indubitably my dear ronin

:D

[Hendrik]

.Hendrik started this thread inviting a predictable disaster- I hope that he closes/removes this thread.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2nxr4vj7mk&feature=related

誰在懸崖沏一壺茶 ( Who boil a pot of tea in the edge of the cliff)
溫熱前世的牽掛　( Warm up the past life's concern ?)

我等你一句話 ( I wait of your answer.)

[bennyvt]

I was always taught that the forms were just a catalouge of moves. Like a book on woodworking, these are the tools now you have to learn how to use them. Only through the drills, exercise, chi sao, free fighting can you learn anything about fighting. Barry always said to try VT on anyone you could. In his day you had challenges to try stuff out but I guess the best is high intensity sparing unless you compete. Its sort of like the keun kuit, a way of remembering what you have learnt.

[anerlich]

I was always taught that the forms were just a catalouge of moves. Like a book on woodworking, these are the tools now you have to learn how to use them.

Agreed. The most skilled and competent KF teacher I have met described forms as "a vocabulary of techniques".