Forms and Application Meet Through the Magic of Video

[HumbleWCGuy]

Obviously, this video could be edited to demonstrate proper application according to your own liking. The thing that I like most is the potential for such a basic editing technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqhIwEpNu7c

[Egg fu young]

Obviously, this video could be edited to demonstrate proper application according to your own liking. The thing that I like most is the potential for such a basic editing technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqhIwEpNu7c

I thought that was cool.

[t_niehoff]

Obviously, this video could be edited to demonstrate proper application according to your own liking. The thing that I like most is the potential for such a basic editing technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqhIwEpNu7c

He is not showing ANY application on that video.

[HumbleWCGuy]

He is not showing ANY application on that video.

Perhaps you should try not making up your own vocabulary. Beyond that he would have but he couldn't find any local mma guys to humor him, and make him feel like he could fight.

[t_niehoff]

Perhaps you should try not making up your own vocabulary. Beyond that he would have but he couldn't find any local mma guys to humor him, and make him feel like he could fight.

Application means to apply, to use. In a fighting art, that means to use or apply something in fighting. Hitting a bag (what the guy does on the video to show the punch, for example) is not application. Showing an action on the dummy (another example he uses) isn't application. Nor is demonstrating what you would do or think you would do in fighitng application.

Go watch Sperry's Vale Tudo 1 for a great example of someone showing how MAs should be taught and trained. He breaks the fight down into strategic steps, shows the various skills you need at each step, shows how to drill those skills, and then shows it in application through fight footage -- and you see him doing in fighting exactly what he taught.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I thought that it would be better to demonstrate a form interspersed with clips of you being humored by your mma buddies.

[k gledhill]

no jum sao...

[anerlich]

I agree the editing techniques have potential.

I do not think that showing how the moves in the form can be applied to bags, the dummy and that vertical rope thing are valid demonstrations of WC applications. Better show him using them in a sparring situation, even if prearranged.

This is not to say the guy is no good at WC, just that his examples could be better.

HWCG and T, can you two get a room or something? This two-kids-arguing-in-the-playground schtick is getting really boring.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I agree the editing techniques have potential.

I do not think that showing how the moves in the form can be applied to bags, the dummy and that vertical rope thing are valid demonstrations of WC applications. Better show him using them in a sparring situation, even if prearranged.

This is not to say the guy is no good at WC, just that his examples could be better.

HWCG and T, can you two get a room or something? This two-kids-arguing-in-the-playground schtick is getting really boring.

I was thinking that showing sparring would be ideal or at least some sort of real-time movements would have been fine for me. It might be hard to get some of the application off of sparring video just because not all SLT movements are applicable in legitimate sparring.

[t_niehoff]

It might be hard to get some of the application off of sparring video just because not all SLT movements are applicable in legitimate sparring.

Like what?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Like what?

You should never say never but it is difficult to have two hand blocking (especially low) in sparring. It could happen, I just don't see it as likely scenario to arise. It really depends on how literal you want to be with the movements I guess.

[t_niehoff]

You should never say never but it is difficult to have two hand blocking (especially low) in sparring. It could happen, I just don't see it as likely scenario to arise. It really depends on how literal you want to be with the movements I guess.

I don't know what you are talking about -- two hand (low) blocking?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't know what you are talking about -- two hand (low) blocking?

The double gum saos

[t_niehoff]

The double gum saos

Gum sao is not a "block" -- it is what the name says, a "pinning arm". It is a manipulation used while attached (already in contact) to an opponent.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It is a manipulation used while attached (already in contact) to an opponent.

So says your lineage or you. I/we use it as both.

[t_niehoff]

So says your lineage or you. I/we use it as both.

Almost all of WCK's actions are contact skills (usable when already attached), not non-contact skills.

I know many, if not most, people try to use the WCK actions at non-contact (and they are taught that way by people who don't know better), but they simply won't work (which is not surprising, why would you expect clinch skills to work outside the clinch?). You see lots of WCK people "practicing" using things like gum saos as non-contact blocks in san sao or light playfighting, but when you see them really fight (spar at high intensity), you see those things go out the window.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Almost all of WCK's actions are contact skills (usable when already attached), not non-contact skills.

I know many, if not most, people try to use the WCK actions at non-contact (and they are taught that way by people who don't know better), but they simply won't work (which is not surprising, why would you expect clinch skills to work outside the clinch?). You see lots of WCK people "practicing" using things like gum saos as non-contact blocks in san sao or light playfighting, but when you see them really fight (spar at high intensity), you see those things go out the window.

When we hit down a side kick to get by it, we call that a gum sao. You could call it something else but to us it is gum sao. I have used it in hard sparring and it has been used against me.


Edit: It doesn't come up as much these days because people just aren't using the side kick as much these days. The influence of mma; I think.

[t_niehoff]

When we hit down a side kick to get by it, we call that a gum sao. You could call it something else but to us it is gum sao. I have used it in hard sparring and it has been used against me.

That's not a gum sao or pinning hand. Look, the term itself tells you the ACTION you are performing.

Dropping your hands to block kicks (or punches) is a really good idea. ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's not a gum sao or pinning hand. Look, the term itself tells you the ACTION you are performing.

That's one of those never ending WC debates. Is it a pak, jut, a jum, a gum? For use the downward force makes it a gum.



Dropping your hands to block kicks (or punches) is a really good idea. ;)

You have to use your feet to get you in the right spot. and shift the raised hand to protect when you drop your a hand. Like what boxers do when the shift a hand low. It seems like other lineages have a pretty static wu sao, we move ours around a lot.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's not a gum sao or pinning hand. Look, the term itself tells you the ACTION you are performing.


Also, I recognize that there are probably at least 2 or 3 other technique that could be used such as a bong or fook. I have used all of them depending on how I needed to parry to move in.

[t_niehoff]

That's one of those never ending WC debates. Is it a pak, jut, a jum, a gum? For use the downward force makes it a gum.


There's no debate. The term means what it means. Punch, for example, means punch, not grab. Two different actions, and two different terms to describe those actions. The WCK terms describe ACTIONS. Why call something pinning hand when you really mean down-block? That's silly.



You have to use your feet to get you in the right spot. and shift the raised hand to protect when you drop your a hand. Like what boxers do when the shift a hand low. It seems like other lineages have a pretty static wu sao, we move ours around a lot.

Blocking is generally a really poor idea. Dropping your hands to block an even worse one.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There's no debate. The term means what it means. Punch, for example, means punch, not grab. Two different actions, and two different terms to describe those actions. The WCK terms describe ACTIONS. Why call something pinning hand when you really mean down-block? That's silly.

Because we don't get hung up in semantic debates. We are about fighting, If you want to call it a downward palm block then by all means do so. I sometimes do. But I initially learned it as gum sao.
Edit: I don't think that I can stress enough to you how little these types of debate matter to us. It is about what you do, not what you call it.



Blocking is generally a really poor idea. Dropping your hands to block an even worse one.
Generally. I don't use them because I lack the reflexes, but some of my WCK cohorts have a pretty good fighting style with one dropped hand. They have great shoulder defenses.

[t_niehoff]

Because we don't get hung up in semantic debates. We are about fighting, If you want to call it a downward palm block then by all means do so. I sometimes do. But I initially learned it as gum sao.
Edit: I don't think that I can stress enough to you how little these types of debate matter to us. It is about what you do, not what you call it.


It's not semantics. If you are teaching someone and tell them to push something to make it work and they pull instead, it's not going to work. Pushing isn't pulling, just like pinning isn't down-blocking. Is that semantics? Our ancestors came up with these terms to describe their actions. Jik chung choi is straight, thrusting punch, not a hook or an uppercut.

WCK doesn't have a downward palm block. If you are using a downward palm block then you aren't using WCK as you are not using WCK tools (actions).

Your position rests on the fact that when you perform a gum sao in the air (in forms) the movement looks similar to a down-block. This is one of the major problems with forms: movement by itself is sort of a inkblot that can be interpreted many ways. The terms help us by telling us the action the movement is to perform. That's not semantics.



Generally. I don't use them because I lack the reflexes, but some of my WCK cohorts have a pretty good fighting style with one dropped hand. They have great shoulder defenses.

That people get away with bad habits isn't a ringing endorsement.

[wtxs]

He is not showing ANY application on that video.

Everyone knows SLT is an WC form, as such, a tool for training basic concept and body structure. Maybe you can suggest how application can be incorporated.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's not semantics. If you are teaching someone and tell them to push something to make it work and they pull instead, it's not going to work. Pushing isn't pulling, just like pinning isn't down-blocking. Is that semantics? Our ancestors came up with these terms to describe their actions. Jik chung choi is straight, thrusting punch, not a hook or an uppercut.

WCK doesn't have a downward palm block. If you are using a downward palm block then you aren't using WCK as you are not using WCK tools (actions).

Your position rests on the fact that when you perform a gum sao in the air (in forms) the movement looks similar to a down-block. This is one of the major problems with forms: movement by itself is sort of a inkblot that can be interpreted many ways. The terms help us by telling us the action the movement is to perform. That's not semantics.


Yup and everyone in my lineage knows that a gum sao has dual uses, and if you caught them in an honest moment they would suggest that you are introducing extra terminology needlessly.

Your argument isn't about calling a hook a straight punch, it is about whether a straight punch in the air is still a straight punch.




That people get away with bad habits isn't a ringing endorsement.

It's a standard drawing technique used by several top boxers including Ali. It is a standard structure.

[t_niehoff]

Everyone knows SLT is an WC form, as such, a tool for training basic concept and body structure. Maybe you can suggest how application can be incorporated.

First application, then dummy, then form.

[Knifefighter]

Yup and everyone in my lineage knows that a gum sao has dual uses,
Please point to a clip of someone using gum sao in a applicable manner.

[t_niehoff]

Yup and everyone in my lineage knows that a gum sao has dual uses, and if you caught them in an honest moment they would suggest that you are introducing extra terminology needlessly.


The "terminolgy" pertains to function, the action you are performing. I didn't make the terminolgy up -- this is a part of the WCK curriculum. In BJJ we have a term called a "guard pass". Guess what that is for? To pass the guard. Not to do something else.

Your argument from popularity (that's what we all do) doesn't make your interpretation correct. Your interpretation-- and a common one -- arises by trying to use WCK movements like karate kickboxing (on the outside), and I might add, poorly (since good kickboxers don't down-block!).



Your argument isn't about calling a hook a straight punch, it is about whether a straight punch in the air is still a straight punch.


Pinning something isn't down-blocking it.



It's a standard drawing technique used by several top boxers including Ali. It is a standard structure.

No, it is simply a bad habit. Do good boxers get away with bad habits? Sure, all the time. They get away with bad habits because they have extraordinary skill not because what they are doing is fundamentally sound.

[wtxs]

First application, then dummy, then form.

Isn't you're the one highlighted the proof-in-the-pudding is in the application of all we have learn/drill/spar with someone bent on taking you out? Think maybe you've gotten form and application out of sequence, like putting the cart before the horse?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isn't you're the one highlighted the proof-in-the-pudding is in the application of all we have learn/drill/spar with someone bent on taking you out? Think maybe you've gotten form and application out of sequence, like putting the cart before the horse?

Actually some MA historians have the view that forms were the last thing taught to a student in the "old days".
Basics were taught along with physical conditioning, then applications, then supplementary training and finally forms.
Although one can assume that supplementary training ( wooden dummy for example) was probably taught at the same times as applications or close to it.

[anerlich]

Quote:
Generally. I don't use them because I lack the reflexes, but some of my WCK cohorts have a pretty good fighting style with one dropped hand. They have great shoulder defenses.

That people get away with bad habits isn't a ringing endorsement.


Sort of like the cross/European defence, used successfully by Ambrose Palmer, John Famechon, etc. Works fairly well as a shoulder charge protecting the jaw to get underhooks etc.

Can you two schoolgirls take this terminology *****fest offline?

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, it is simply a bad habit. Do good boxers get away with bad habits? Sure, all the time. They get away with bad habits because they have extraordinary skill not because what they are doing is fundamentally sound.

This just isn't the case if you know what you are doing. There is a whole series of formal defenses that evolve around keeping the lead low. Just because you and many are unaware of them does not mean that it is always a bad habit.

[wtxs]

Actually some MA historians have the view that forms were the last thing taught to a student in the "old days".
Basics were taught along with physical conditioning, then applications, then supplementary training and finally forms.
Although one can assume that supplementary training ( wooden dummy for example) was probably taught at the same times as applications or close to it.


Forms are forms, don't make it out to more than what it intended to be, it provides the tools we needed towards the eventual applications.

By the way, I appreciate your brand of common sense and logical reasoning.

[Knifefighter]

Forms are forms, don't make it out to more than what it intended to be, it provides the tools we needed towards the eventual applications.

By the way, I appreciate your brand of common sense and logical reasoning.

Forms, when done in a prearranged manner are a complete waste of time and probably make one a worse fighter than if he had never done them in the first place.

[t_niehoff]

Forms are forms, don't make it out to more than what it intended to be, it provides the tools we needed towards the eventual applications.


Wrong. That just leads to the inkblot phenomena -- where you learn a movement out of context (in the air) and then try to figure out how to make it work in fighting(hmm, what does it look like to me?). Which leads in turn to all kinds of theoretical nonsense. And to questions like what is X for or how do you deal with Y and so on.

Instead, you learn how to perform a task, practice performing that task, then put that into a form to memorialize it. Then there is not a question about what X is for or how you deal with Y and so on.

For an example, do you need to practice forms to learn how to play chi sao? No. You could teach it from day one and never do a form in your life.

[t_niehoff]

This just isn't the case if you know what you are doing. There is a whole series of formal defenses that evolve around keeping the lead low. Just because you and many are unaware of them does not mean that it is always a bad habit.

That's not what we were talking about now, was it? (Down-blocking isn't using a low lead).

[Knifefighter]

This just isn't the case if you know what you are doing. There is a whole series of formal defenses that evolve around keeping the lead low. Just because you and many are unaware of them does not mean that it is always a bad habit.

Please point us to some resources that show that show those defenses being applied.

[anerlich]

I like doing forms every now and then.

Screw you guys' opinions.

[Knifefighter]

I like doing forms every now and then.

Screw you guys' opinions.

Imagine how long it would have taken you to develop your BJJ skills, if, as beginner, you were taught to do pre-arranged movements, one following another, without a partner.

Now, compare that to the way you actually learned.

[anerlich]

OK, I did your exercise.

I train BJJ in a fairly mainstream school in the way you advocate.

I surf because I like it, even though it will do zip for my fighting skills.

I gather Royler and Rickson and a host of other Brazilians do as well.

I do KF forms because I enjoy it, even though ...

(in Foghorn Leghorn voice) Any of this getting through to you, boy?

[Knifefighter]

OK, I did your exercise.

I train BJJ in a fairly mainstream school in the way you advocate.

I surf because I like it, even though it will do zip for my fighting skills.

I gather Royler and Rickson and a host of other Brazilians do as well.

I do KF forms because I enjoy it, even though ... forms don't do jack for my fighting ability.

(in Foghorn Leghorn voice) Any of this getting through to you, boy?

I already gotcha. My post was towards the form fighters... as was your expected response... thanks.

[anerlich]

No problema.

[Phil Redmond]

No problemo.
That's problema (it's feminine). :D

[anerlich]

OK OK ... edited to satisfy language police.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do the Iron Wire and I do a customized version of "sanchin" that is a combination of white crane, SPM and my own **** :)
I like doing forms and I do get lots out of them.
I am sure I could make them more "combat applicable" but why?
That is what fighting is for.