wing chun & southern mantis

[Aslan78]

Can I have some information about this styles and the relation about their technique or combat tactics?

One can be crosstrained with the other?

[taai gihk yahn]

HW108 in 5...4...3...2...1...

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have worked with people who have provided me with an overview of the system. There are some similarities. But ultimately mantis is not worth practicing.

[Hardwork108]

hw108 in 5...4...3...2...1...

heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllll loooooooooooooo!!!:)

[Hardwork108]

Can I have some information about this styles and the relation about their technique or combat tactics?
My experience is of the Chow Gar lineage of Southern Praying Mantis and of a Mainland Chinese Lineage of Wing Chun. Of course, I have a little bit of familiarity with Hong Kong wing chun as well.

What these two Southern styles have in common include their emphasis in mid to close range combat; some angling work; short range power; relatively few forms (except when new ones were or are added by current sifus) and the use of low level kicks. There are also the listening and sensitivity concepts that they share but train in different manners.

What they don't have in common includes their individual Internal approaches. Of course I say that knowing that most commercial Wing Chun nowadays is practiced solely as an external art, hence it is incomplete. Also, there were no Yin nor Yang punches trained in the Chow Gar school that I practiced in. The weapons were a variation of the Hammer Fist(a fight stopper, believe me); the Phoenix Eye Fist; Back Hand strikes; Palm Strikes; Elbow/Knee strikes and low level kicks.

Chow Gar Internal training will emphasis the training of tendons and their body unity principles are different to the Wing Chun that I practice.

Power wise,in Chow Gar I have seen a lot of raw power as in military tank, but soft and flexible. All the more surprising for people of the External approach, when one considers the fact that no weight training exercises are used to gain this power. Believe me, this kind of power is difficult to deal with by people who are accustomed to using solelely their external strength in combat.

The Wing Chun that I train, gains its power through its own body unity principles and Iron Palm training and other Qigong.




One can be cross trained with the other?

I would personally find a good school of one of the styles and train it to completion or at least a potent level before cross training in any other kung fu style. I trained the two styles because I moved from one country to another and was more concerned with finding an authentic kung fu school then continuing with and completing my Wing Chun studies in whatever Wing Chun school. My Wing Chun sifu was of the same opinion.

So I did not find a suitable Wing Chun school and I found a fantastic Chow Gar school and it opened my eyes. Unfortunately, I had to move countries again. The current kung fu style I am looking into has unfortunately nothing to do with either two styles.

Off my head I would say that if you find a good Chow Gar school (a very difficult task) then train there. Once you are good then you will see if it is relevant for you to study Wing Chun. If you do decide to study another kung fu style then be assured that your authentic Chow Gar training will help you in ways you never thought possible.

If you find an authentic Wing Chun school and decide to train there then that will also help you if you later decide to study Chow Gar. And the Chow Gar will open your eyes as it did for me through some of its distinct internal training and issuing of power that will compliment your Wing Chun.


By the way, what part of the world do you live in?

[TenTigers]

This is a touchy subject.

As a practitioner of Southern Mantis (for a few years only, but enough to have seen and felt quite a bit) and have also studied Wing Chun, I feel I can thus speak on this with some authority.

My teachers and some of the elders in the SPM Community probably wouldn't approve of me posting about this, giving away secrets, n'all that.
But in the interest of education, and especially shutting the wise remarks from some of you, (such as Humble WC Guy) I will discuss some differences.
Here are but a few;

1) Although Southern Mantis and Wing Chun share certain things in common, such as the U,T,H,N,& I, they are actually spelled very differently, and are in fact, different words entirely.
I know that is a definite difference. And it is highly noticable, even to the untrained eye. The S shape in "Southern" is a curving squiggly line,
and the W in "Wing Chun" is very angular. It goes up and down, and then up and down again.
There are more, (well, simply because there are more letters) But again, I would get flak from those above me, so I am simply giving you the start, planting seeds, if you will. If you are truly interested, you can continue along this path and you will see the vast differences in the two systems. Facinating stuff, really.


2) The written Chinese language is very complex. A simple stroke changes the meaning of an entire word. Some words describe not simply a thing, but an entire concept, So it is no startling discovery that not only in English, but the actual Chinese Characters, or Han-Ji, themselves are different.
I know some people might say,'Oh sure. How am I supposed to believe you? I don't speak or write Chinese."
Well, I don't expect you to go on simple faith. You might do some google or wikipedia searches, or someone on this board who knows how to post the Han-Ji can do it, and we can compare stroke by stroke the differences in them.
This, in itself could take up an entire thread.

3) Although they may be from the same region, and might share certain techniques and theories, for thye most part, it is agreed that Wing Chun is based on the movements of the Snake and Crane(perhaps more Crane as it has connections to Fukien White Crane) and Southern Mantis is based on the Praying (or preying) Mantis.
The Crane, is actually a bird. It has feathers, wings and a beak.
A Snake is a reptile that is legless (and armless, as well incidently) and crawls on the ground.
A Mantis is a bug.
Here is where it gets really interesting and complex.
BOTH the Crane AND the Mantis have wings.
BOTH the Crane and the Mantis have legs.
And ALL THREE, Snake, Crane, as well as Mantis have heads.
So you see, there are many similarities, as well as differences.

I could go on and on, but as I stated before, the Southern Mantis clan is a pretty secretive group, and like to keep their Jade close to the vest.
I hope I have provided at least some groundwork so we can enjoy a deep and meaningfull open discussion.

I would also appreciate it if HW108, and others don't interrupt the discussion with meaningless, useless drivel.

[Hardwork108]

This is a touchy subject.

As a practitioner of Southern Mantis (for a few years only, but enough to have seen and felt quite a bit) and have also studied Wing Chun, I feel I can thus speak on this with some authority.

My teachers and some of the elders in the SPM Community probably wouldn't approve of me posting about this, giving away secrets, n'all that.
But in the interest of education, and especially shutting the wise remarks from some of you, (such as Humble WC Guy) I will discuss some differences.
Here are but a few;

1) Although Southern Mantis and Wing Chun share certain things in common, such as the U,T,H,N,& I, they are actually spelled very differently, and are in fact, different words entirely.
I know that is a definite difference. And it is highly noticable, even to the untrained eye. The S shape in "Southern" is a curving squiggly line,
and the W in "Wing Chun" is very angular. It goes up and down, and then up and down again.
There are more, (well, simply because there are more letters) But again, I would get flak from those above me, so I am simply giving you the start, planting seeds, if you will. If you are truly interested, you can continue along this path and you will see the vast differences in the two systems. Facinating stuff, really.


2) The written Chinese language is very complex. A simple stroke changes the meaning of an entire word. Some words describe not simply a thing, but an entire concept, So it is no startling discovery that not only in English, but the actual Chinese Characters, or Han-Ji, themselves are different.
I know some people might say,'Oh sure. How am I supposed to believe you? I don't speak or write Chinese."
Well, I don't expect you to go on simple faith. You might do some google or wikipedia searches, or someone on this board who knows how to post the Han-Ji can do it, and we can compare stroke by stroke the differences in them.
This, in itself could take up an entire thread.

3) Although they may be from the same region, and might share certain techniques and theories, for thye most part, it is agreed that Wing Chun is based on the movements of the Snake and Crane(perhaps more Crane as it has connections to Fukien White Crane) and Southern Mantis is based on the Praying (or preying) Mantis.
The Crane, is actually a bird. It has feathers, wings and a beak.
A Snake is a reptile that is legless (and armless, as well incidently) and crawls on the ground.
A Mantis is a bug.
Here is where it gets really interesting and complex.
BOTH the Crane AND the Mantis have wings.
BOTH the Crane and the Mantis have legs.
And ALL THREE, Snake, Crane, as well as Mantis have heads.
So you see, there are many similarities, as well as differences.

I could go on and on, but as I stated before, the Southern Mantis clan is a pretty secretive group, and like to keep their Jade close to the vest.
I hope I have provided at least some groundwork so we can enjoy a deep and meaningfull open discussion.

I would also appreciate it if HW108, and others don't interrupt the discussion with meaningless, useless drivel.

Good Post.

What part of my previous post you found to be "meaningless, useless drivel"?:confused:

[stonecrusher69]

Can I have some information about this styles and the relation about their technique or combat tactics?

One can be crosstrained with the other?


both styles are very similar. you should check out the southern hand forum for info in mantis.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The only things Wing Chun and Mantis have in common is two words, Kung Fu. Other than that, they are different as day and night. The only kung fu fighter I have ever actually fought with, a real fist fight, was a mantis guy. He challenged me to the fight and everyone told me just how bad he was going to hurt me. I wanted to flee and hide, but I met him behind where I worked and fought him. I was so scared that I actually attacked him with everything I had. Overkill it was. I didn't have to be so brutal. I busted that boy up so bad that even my best friends shunned me for a long time. He was said to be the best around and yet could not even fight me. But that is all relative. His skills may not have been exactly what they were telling me, and my own skills were more than enough to stand and deliver.

[duende]

I think some people here are confusing northern with southern praying mantis. Two very different arts.

Southern Praying mantis is actually quite rare to find instruction in. Like WC and other southern fist KF it has the strong bridging technology of Kiu Sau, whipping power generation and is quite formidable IMO.

Nothing to look down upon as far as I'm concerned.

[Tao Of The Fist]

So I did not find a suitable Wing Chun school and I found a fantastic Chow Gar school and it opened my eyes. Unfortunately, I had to move countries again. The current kung fu style I am looking into has unfortunately nothing to do with either two styles.

What style are you studying now, just out of curiousity?

[Hardwork108]

What style are you studying now, just out of curiousity?

I am looking into a Mien Chuan school. The school looks pretty traditional. They are low profile and seem to take their Internals seriously, as well. The whole place and the students had good "energy". I should be giving them a try by the end of the month.

This style seems to be pretty rare (yes another one :( ). The only references I found about it on the internet translated its name to "Cotton Fist". However, the sifu in the Mien Chuan school translated in a different way, which I don't remember right now. He said that it was a Shaolin style/line. It has Mantis (Northern) influences among others. The style looked kind of Northern to me, and when I mentioned this to the sifu he replied that his school sees all Shaolin as one. It seems that they do not like the idea of Northern and Southern labels.

I might write more about this style when I get some experience in this system through personal training. :)

HW108

[LSWCTN1]

So I did not find a suitable Wing Chun school and I found a fantastic Chow Gar school and it opened my eyes.

was it Sifu Paul Whitrod?

from the little i know of him, he has an excellent reputation.

[Hardwork108]

was it Sifu Paul Whitrod?

from the little i know of him, he has an excellent reputation.
No. It was another Chow Gar Kwoon.

HW108

[YungChun]

This is a touchy subject.

As a practitioner of Southern Mantis (for a few years only, but enough to have seen and felt quite a bit) and have also studied Wing Chun, I feel I can thus speak on this with some authority.

My teachers and some of the elders in the SPM Community probably wouldn't approve of me posting about this, giving away secrets, n'all that.
But in the interest of education, and especially shutting the wise remarks from some of you, (such as Humble WC Guy) I will discuss some differences.
Here are but a few;

1) Although Southern Mantis and Wing Chun share certain things in common, such as the U,T,H,N,& I, they are actually spelled very differently, and are in fact, different words entirely.
I know that is a definite difference. And it is highly noticable, even to the untrained eye. The S shape in "Southern" is a curving squiggly line,
and the W in "Wing Chun" is very angular. It goes up and down, and then up and down again.
There are more, (well, simply because there are more letters) But again, I would get flak from those above me, so I am simply giving you the start, planting seeds, if you will. If you are truly interested, you can continue along this path and you will see the vast differences in the two systems. Facinating stuff, really.


2) The written Chinese language is very complex. A simple stroke changes the meaning of an entire word. Some words describe not simply a thing, but an entire concept, So it is no startling discovery that not only in English, but the actual Chinese Characters, or Han-Ji, themselves are different.
I know some people might say,'Oh sure. How am I supposed to believe you? I don't speak or write Chinese."
Well, I don't expect you to go on simple faith. You might do some google or wikipedia searches, or someone on this board who knows how to post the Han-Ji can do it, and we can compare stroke by stroke the differences in them.
This, in itself could take up an entire thread.

3) Although they may be from the same region, and might share certain techniques and theories, for thye most part, it is agreed that Wing Chun is based on the movements of the Snake and Crane(perhaps more Crane as it has connections to Fukien White Crane) and Southern Mantis is based on the Praying (or preying) Mantis.
The Crane, is actually a bird. It has feathers, wings and a beak.
A Snake is a reptile that is legless (and armless, as well incidently) and crawls on the ground.
A Mantis is a bug.
Here is where it gets really interesting and complex.
BOTH the Crane AND the Mantis have wings.
BOTH the Crane and the Mantis have legs.
And ALL THREE, Snake, Crane, as well as Mantis have heads.
So you see, there are many similarities, as well as differences.

I could go on and on, but as I stated before, the Southern Mantis clan is a pretty secretive group, and like to keep their Jade close to the vest.
I hope I have provided at least some groundwork so we can enjoy a deep and meaningfull open discussion.

I would also appreciate it if HW108, and others don't interrupt the discussion with meaningless, useless drivel.

Very informative.

It should also be noted that "Wing Chun" is thought to be the name of the woman founder and that Mantis has the word Man hidden within it....

Makes you think doesn't it? :rolleyes:

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think some people here are confusing northern with southern praying mantis. Two very different arts.

Southern Praying mantis is actually quite rare to find instruction in. Like WC and other southern fist KF it has the strong bridging technology of Kiu Sau, whipping power generation and is quite formidable IMO.

Nothing to look down upon as far as I'm concerned.

Not really looking down on it, but just relating an experience. I have never actually studied another form of kung fu, so can not speak with any knowledge of any but my own. I assumed that because of the name that there were just a northern and southern version of the same style. I seen absolutely no comparisons to Wing Chun in this boys Mantis. His stance was way too wide. I could not even assume the stance as it would rip my hip joints out. And all his technique was long and rounded, and his kicks came from the rear foot. I seen them coming before they got even with him and was easily able to deflect or just stop his motion with a technique of my own. I was able to simply walk in and hammer him without any resistance at all. It is always possible that he had everyone buffaloed and was not as good as he thought he was.
As for my ignorance of thinking north and south mantis were the same, I stand corrected.

LCP

[YungChun]

Can I have some information about this styles and the relation about their technique or combat tactics?

One can be crosstrained with the other?

Anything can be cross trained with something else.. The question is why?


The real answer is that finding something good of any TCMA style is hard to impossible enough. Trying to find two and doing them at the same time is not recommended nor practical.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am a advocate of cross-testing more than cross-training per say, but cross-training has its value or course, to deny it is silly.
The issue is WHY you are doing it.
Cross training a grappling system with a striking one makes sense for obvious reasons, but cross-training to striking systems can be counter-productive.
WC and SPM have enough in common that it may SEEM OK to cross-train in them but they have enough different that makes it a good idea not to.

[duende]

Not really looking down on it, but just relating an experience. I have never actually studied another form of kung fu, so can not speak with any knowledge of any but my own. I assumed that because of the name that there were just a northern and southern version of the same style. I seen absolutely no comparisons to Wing Chun in this boys Mantis. His stance was way too wide. I could not even assume the stance as it would rip my hip joints out. And all his technique was long and rounded, and his kicks came from the rear foot. I seen them coming before they got even with him and was easily able to deflect or just stop his motion with a technique of my own. I was able to simply walk in and hammer him without any resistance at all. It is always possible that he had everyone buffaloed and was not as good as he thought he was.
As for my ignorance of thinking north and south mantis were the same, I stand corrected.

LCP

No worries... sounds definitely like Northern Mantis. Tong Long is much more close range in nature. Not stretched out like you describe.

[Sam]

James Cama Sifu is teaching both Southern Mantis and Wing Chun at 211 Canal St. NYC on Tues, Wed, Thurs, 7:30 to 9:30 Sun. 12:00 to 2:00 call 347 495-6992

[Lee Chiang Po]

When I was training Wing Chun I was given plenty of good grappling skills too, and later I started training Japanese jujitsu, which gave me an entire system of grappling, throws, and hand and foot striking techniques. I feel that it did not have good entry techniques, and my Wing Chun gave me that. I can go smoothly from a WC move into a arm or wrist lock or even a throw. It compliments each other quite well.
However, I found quickly that in order to train in most other forms of kung fu I would have to abandon the principals and concepts of Wing Chun, which would be a hinderance to both styles. The WC is much easier to do for me, as I am not physically built for most other styles. I am strong, but I am not built with the lith and grace of most men. And the good thing is that I should be able to continue my MA skills into very old age since I will not have to maintain a youthful body in order to do it.

LCP

[Hardwork108]

When I was training Wing Chun I was given plenty of good grappling skills too, and later I started training Japanese jujitsu, which gave me an entire system of grappling, throws, and hand and foot striking techniques. I feel that it did not have good entry techniques, and my Wing Chun gave me that. I can go smoothly from a WC move into a arm or wrist lock or even a throw. It compliments each other quite well.
However, I found quickly that in order to train in most other forms of kung fu I would have to abandon the principals and concepts of Wing Chun, which would be a hinderance to both styles. The WC is much easier to do for me, as I am not physically built for most other styles. I am strong, but I am not built with the lith and grace of most men. And the good thing is that I should be able to continue my MA skills into very old age since I will not have to maintain a youthful body in order to do it.

LCP

With authentic Chow Gar training you can build strength and power that will compensate for your physical built and will last you a long time, into old age. The secret is finding a "real deal" school who will train you internally using the correct principles. No easy task, unfortunately.

HW108

[eomonroe00]

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