Lessons from Rahsun-Dale encounter

[t_niehoff]

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifupr

OK, watch the video.

Then, ask yourself this question: what do you think Rashun's strategy was? In other words, what was he trying to do? What was his gameplan for approaching his opponent?

Can you tell what Dale's strategy was, what he was trying to do? I'll give you the answer: use strikes to get close enough (since he's shorter) and set up opportunities to shoot a low single leg -- which, btw, is the most appropriate takedown since his opponent gave him a unmatched stance -- to take his opponent down (since he is a submission fighter). And you see him do that over and over.

To analyze -- either for yourself or to help coach another person -- you need to always BEGIN with asking the trainee "what is it you are going to try and do?" or "what is your strategy going in? Because that is the only way to be able to judge how well you were able to do it. And, if you don't know what you are trying to do in a fight, you won't get very far. Just "winging it" is a recipe for failure. Answers like keep him off of me, not let him take me down, hit him, control the centerline, etc. aren't strategies, they aren't plans, they are not approaches to fighitng.

So what was Rashun trying to do? What was his strategy? I think it is clear he didn't have one. And that is a HUGE mistake that goes back to his training. Every time you spar/fight, you should be training your strategy -- to implementing your plan of action. If you don't train it, you won't be able to do it.

So, then let's look at what he did do. He was entirely defensive, letting Dale lead the action, not keeping Dale guessing, just being totally responsive.

He would wait for Dale to try enter and then try to throw a bunch of headshots. That's not counter-fighting where you draw an opponent's attack, make him miss, then punish him. He was simply absorbing Dale's attack. Why was he doing this? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE TRAINS TO DO. If you notice, he typically was planted when Dale came in (which goes back to poor training). That's just going to get you run over -- particularly if your opponent is your size or larger.

Remember this fight? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHwVQmZVZL4

What was Laviki's strategy, what was he doing? Sound familiar?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Do don't know a dam thing. Seriously, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Just shut up.

[t_niehoff]

Do don't know a dam thing. Seriously, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Just shut up.

Thank you for that intelligent reply. Since you obviously disagree, maybe you could point out where I am wrong. You could start by telling us what you think Rashun's strategy was and how you saw him implementing that. Or, how you take exception to my characterization of what he was doing.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Thank you for that intelligent reply. Since you obviously disagree, maybe you could point out where I am wrong. You could start by telling us what you think Rashun's strategy was and how you saw him implementing that. Or, how you take exception to my characterization of what he was doing.

You are a punching bag with eyeballs and I prefer to leave it that way.

[t_niehoff]

You are a punching bag with eyeballs and I prefer to leave it that way.

Sure, I understand. When you can't intelligently respond, you respond with insults. I learned that in grade school.

[Frost]

I think the lesson here is don't post a video of yourself play sparring or allow one to be filmed, those that won't post any videos will be only too happy to tell you its crap

[t_niehoff]

I think it interesting that some people consider it "unfair" that anyone criticize videos people post without opening themselves up to the same treatment. It's as though we should be grateful to people for posting videos, like they are doing us some favor, and it is bad form to say anything other than positive comments.

As I see it, they are not doing us - or WCK - some favor by posting videos. Just the opposite: they are doing us and WCK a disservice by posting videos. They are portraying WCK poorly. And so they deserve criticism.

I'm not going to do the same thing. Then I'd be doing exactly what I am criticizing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The fact that they were"playing" and doing "learning sparring" aside, what I see is that Dale contolelled most of the match.
He has a strategy and applied it relatively well considering the easy pace of the sparring.
Rashun has the height, reach and size advantage and while he was able to keep Dale from the takedown once, the other times that Dale got control, Rashun went down.
I am sure that Rashun learned a lot about his stuff.
The few times there were some attempts at a standing exchange you can see Dale was trying to get Rashun to commit so that he could go for the TD, Rashun didn't.
Rashun seemed a bit to stationary at times but protected himself well.
Grass is a sucky medium to spar in, LOL !
All in all I am sure that BOTH guys had a great time ( it looked like it) and I am sure BOTH got something out of it.

When Dale got Rashun on the ground Rashun did "hit" him with a "flurry" of chain punches but to be honest, they were arm punches and I am not sure how much of a difference they would have made in a real match, not knowing how hard Rashun hits from a compromised position.

[taai gihk yahn]

good analysis, T. and SJ; what those who are jumping up and down with Dale getting destroyed obviously don't get is that this was an example of light "play" wherein Dale was trying to do something very specific, which was take Rashun down - meaning that he was working the mechanics of that strategy in a relatively controlled situation; I mean, does anyone really think that Dale was oblivious to the fact that he was open to some head shots, that he just kept going thinking he would be fine? obviously not; what we see is a situation where he is allowing himself the luxury if you will of continuing to work the technique in a less than totally realistic situation in order to work on specific components of that skill; from a motor learning perspective, this makes total sense, that you work with some of the parameters of "reality" in order to focus on certain aspects of a skill, but allowing for other parameters to not apply;

as for Rashun, I think he was working on not getting taken down / how to deal w/a striker who is also a grappler;

at any rate, there will always be folks who will see this and yelp about how Dale got destroyed because it suits their persona agenda rather than analyzing it for what it is, which was a semi-controlled training session...

[t_niehoff]

When Dale got Rashun on the ground Rashun did "hit" him with a "flurry" of chain punches but to be honest, they were arm punches and I am not sure how much of a difference they would have made in a real match, not knowing how hard Rashun hits from a compromised position.

This is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about.

That sort of punching -- the fast, chain punching -- is simply bad. It is incredibly weak (the faster your arms with the chain punch, the less you can put your body into it or behind it), and if you did much full-contact sparring, you'd see that for yourself in no time. Not only that, but it leaves you (when doing it in stand-up) open to many easy counters. To do it in compromised positions, only makes it worse.

Now, this is not a criticism of WCK -- it is a criticism of how people use that particular tool.

Why do people do it then? Because they and their teachers don't know better and because they practice doing that in their unrealistic training. Then, they don't put in enough realistic training to see that it does not work (give you good results). And so the cycle of poor training continues.

[Ali. R]

Just be a man.....

If grown men test each other (in whatever physical) that’s just what it is two men and nothing more proving a point, if one doesn’t like the outcome, he or she shouldn’t have been there…

Reach, age, height, weight or whatever doesn’t mean a thing when two gladiators meet up, if its training or whatever (real men), in which they had no choice but to be there, just to live... They didn’t cry foul in training…

Rahsun could of got hurt if he was hit with some of those wild (just having fun) strikes, very heavy handed as well (let’s JFK it to prove that point). Rashun hit him many times, I'm pretty sure I'm the olny that sees this.:confused:

But when two men meet up on their own: they put themselves out there for the world see, and should deal with the outcome like a man the same way he thought he would feel when walking away from that contest of this so-called nothing, and by knowing it was being filmed, each MAN had to walk away feeling like a man (both did their best)…

More respect if one just came out and said, “the kid had a good day and display great skills” (humble), rather then taking it this far… If I was him, I’ve would of learned a lot from this thread…

But I already knew better,


Ali Rahim

[sihing]

Rashun was displaying a style. Styles tell you how to move, how to react, how to do everything, they take away the naturalness of movement, men become robots when they learn a style. He was able to keep him away in the stand up, but is that the point of Wing Chun? To me the point of WC is to be able to function on the inside, not on the outside. Yeah, I know they were playing but he still could have shown some forward pressure while standing up, instead of the response he gave, hands up defensively and retreating when Dale came in. I didn't see much skill there, but that's what happens when you fight with a style, no natural responses are able to come out when your movement is fixed.

Dale on the other hand was much more relaxed in his stand up, more natural movement, he wasn't concerned with fixed positions with his hands. He explored Rashun's reactions with jabs, and set up his takedowns. Maybe because of the lightheartedness of the session, that is why Rashun was able to escape some of his ground fighting attempts, or maybe it was due to Rashun's athletism, I don't know.

Again, neither showed dominance, but that is what happens when it is play. Dale looked more effective IMO on both ends, stand up and on the ground, just because of the way he moved and his reactions.

Just my .02 $...

James

[Knifefighter]

Rashun was displaying a style. Styles tell you how to move, how to react, how to do everything, they take away the naturalness of movement, men become robots when they learn a style. He was able to keep him away in the stand up, but is that the point of Wing Chun? To me the point of WC is to be able to function on the inside, not on the outside. Yeah, I know they were playing but he still could have shown some forward pressure while standing up, instead of the response he gave, hands up defensively and retreating when Dale came in.

Actually, he did exactly what someone should do if he wants to have the best chance of not being taken down by someone who is trying to do that. Someone who applies forward pressure makes it much easier to be taken down.

While the strikes and anything that happened on the ground were pretty much meaningless, Rashun gave a very good example of how to play a good, "anti-takedown" game.

[Ali. R]

Major self-damage has alrealy been done…


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

Rahsun could of got hurt if he was hit with some of those wild (just having fun) strikes, very heavy handed as well (let’s JFK it to prove that point).

LOL @ those being hard strikes... the fact that you think any of the "punches" I threw could have done any damage substantiates, once again, you are clueless about full contact fighting.

[sihing]

Actually, he did exactly what someone should do if he wants to have the best chance of not being taken down by someone who is trying to do that. Someone who applies forward pressure makes it much easier to be taken down.

While the strikes and anything that happened on the ground were pretty much meaningless, Rashun gave a very good example of how to play a good, "anti-takedown" game.

How do you know a guy is going to take you down in a street fight? How do you know his skills/abilities or training history when someone attacks you on the street. I thought the best defense is a good offence. Yes, I do agree that if all he wanted to do was avoid the take down he did some good things, but was that the deal when you guys were playing around? Or was it his intention to attack & counter you as well? Also on the street the guy you meet probably will not be a skilled grappler (the chances of physical violence are low, now the chances of someone attacking you that has skills is how low?), so again you may be right against someone skilled like you are, but what about the average guy. In the vid, you came forward with jabs and strikes, he retreated with hands up, doesn't that leave him open for a takedown coming underneath?

Maybe in the ring you are right, but that is a different animal. Are we talking about the ring or the street?

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

How do you know a guy is going to take you down in a street fight? How do you know his skills/abilities or training history when someone attacks you on the street. I thought the best defense is a good offence. Yes, I do agree that if all he wanted to do was avoid the take down he did some good things, but was that the deal when you guys were playing around? Or was it his intention to attack & counter you as well? Also on the street the guy you meet probably will not be a skilled grappler (the chances of physical violence are low, now the chances of someone attacking you that has skills is how low?), so again you may be right against someone skilled like you are, but what about the average guy. In the vid, you came forward with jabs and strikes, he retreated with hands up, doesn't that leave him open for a takedown coming underneath?

Maybe in the ring you are right, but that is a different animal. Are we talking about the ring or the street?

James


Certainly the skill level was pre-supposed in this friendly match, but I have ot be honest, if I saw anyone moving like Dale was in a "street fight" I would saefly assume he KNEW how to fight and that ALWAYS means a takedown is a very serious possibility.

[Knifefighter]

In the vid, you came forward with jabs and strikes, he retreated with hands up, doesn't that leave him open for a takedown coming underneath?

Maybe in the ring you are right, but that is a different animal. Are we talking about the ring or the street?

A grappler wants forward, or at least stationary, inertia for his takedown. Setups are mostly based on this fact... street, ring doesn't matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A grappler wants forward, or at least stationary, inertia for his takedown. Setups are mostly based on this fact... street, ring doesn't matter.

One of the reason Chuck was so good, his ability to move away and hit.
Of course, if your forward movement is a flying knee ala Carlos Newton, that's not so bad too !
;)

[Ali. R]

You tried your best on film and failed, and I will not let you or anyone else take that away from that young man...

You should be a shamed of yourself for not recognizing him and his ability earlier…

Why didn’t you do that?

No one will disagree on the answer……..

EGO!


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

You tried your best on film and failed, and I will not let you or anyone else take that away from that young man...

You should be a shamed of yourself for not recognizing him and his ability earlier…

Why didn’t you do that?

No one will disagree on the answer……..

EGO!


Ali Rahim.

Yep, you prove that you know nothing, once again. Read the post that I wrote a year ago, dumba$$.

Speaking of egos, hey how about this? Instead of putting up scores of videos of yourself posing and fronting with your theoretical techniques, maybe you can post some of the clips from the competitions of the "boxers" you are stealing money from, er, I mean, training to fight "professionally"?

[Ali. R]

It won't work; I’m not as thick as you (ego).

I’m sorry, but you have more excuses then a black man going to jail (my birth brothers)…


Ali Rahim.

[sihing]

A grappler wants forward, or at least stationary, inertia for his takedown. Setups are mostly based on this fact... street, ring doesn't matter.

Okay that may be true and if I were to meet a seasoned grappler I would be taken down, that's given, if my opponent is a seasoned grappler, how much chance of meeting that on the street? That's the problem here, your answering based on the skill of what I may be facing, which is impossible to quantify on a forum like this. Generally speaking, going forward is a good thing in my book and from my research allot of others also. But like I've said nothing is guaranteed to work all the time, since you don't know who you are facing. By going into an attack, which is what WC is about, you take your chance, but all fighting is chance correct? Plus there's also the elements of environment and circumstances, the environment may or may not allow takedowns to happen, or the guy may be too drunk to pull it off or whatever. Lots of variable to equate to say definetly this is wrong or this is right, you just have to do what you are going to do, play your own game, hopefully it goes in your favour with little injury.

James

[m1k3]

Sihing, just my 2 cents on running into a skilled grappler. I agree that the numbers would not be high but to put a little twist into it.

How many of those you might run into on the street or in a bar don't have experience watching MMA, at least enough to be familiar with the strategy of 'ground and pound'?

Take them down, sit on their chest and feed them their teeth is not a hard concept to pick up. :eek:

As for the skills to do it, well I’ll bet a large number of those people have played a fair amount of tackle football in their day even if only on the local empty lot. I’d be willing to bet that even some of them have some high school wrestling experience.

IMO being aware of the takedown is always a good idea and knowing how to get out from under someone who is on top of you is not a bad skill to have either.

[sihing]

Certainly the skill level was pre-supposed in this friendly match, but I have ot be honest, if I saw anyone moving like Dale was in a "street fight" I would saefly assume he KNEW how to fight and that ALWAYS means a takedown is a very serious possibility.

Me too. By the way Dale is moving, that would be information coming back to you to let you know this guy has some skills, that is if you are squaring off with him, which is a different game as well, now its a competition of sorts, except on the street there are no rules.

The point was, we are not always going to meet someone with those specific skills, one doesn't know what they are going to face on the street. So in my book I would rather set the pace and impose my game than wait to see what his is, that's the idea behind WC, you enter their space crowd them making most uncomfortable and let the tools work for you. Against someone with experience (maybe like yourself Paul) this may not work out well, but most guys like you won't get in situations like this, at least against me since I don't start fights.

James

[sihing]

Sihing, just my 2 cents on running into a skilled grappler. I agree that the numbers would not be high but to put a little twist into it.

How many of those you might run into on the street or in a bar don't have experience watching MMA, at least enough to be familiar with the strategy of 'ground and pound'?

Take them down, sit on their chest and feed them their teeth is not a hard concept to pick up. :eek:

As for the skills to do it, well I’ll bet a large number of those people have played a fair amount of tackle football in their day even if only on the local empty lot. I’d be willing to bet that even some of them have some high school wrestling experience.

IMO being aware of the takedown is always a good idea and knowing how to get out from under someone who is on top of you is not a bad skill to have either.

I agree, there's lots of exposure to the MMA tactics and techniques, but that still doesn't mean someone can pull it off. I too have had exposure to the MMA tactics on TV and can take one down for GNP as well, and I wrestled in public school ages ago. It's the same for everyone in the modern world. It's all about one's skills against anothers and surviving the event, not about winning. Someone's in my face I try my best to get out of it with non violence (so far that has worked for me, personally and at work), but if it becomes agressive it give me no choice, I'm in there, closing tight, attacking his COM with aggression, with the idea that he's unable to lauch aggression against me. WC teaches this idea well, with the ability to adapt, but things don't always go as planned, that's the equation to solve. Heart and determination play a role as well, who wants it the most will usually overcome.
We can't really talk about application here on the forum, there's no personal interaction for us to really understand what skills we all have in relation to things we are talking about.

James

[m1k3]

Sihing,

I agree with what your are saying. My point was that everyone should have basic sprawl, shrimp and bridge skills in your tool box. Doesn't mean you want to grapple but at least gives you a chance to get away if you find yourself in that postition. As you said you probably won't run into a skilled grappler but it still sucks to be stuck under an unskilled one.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

The chances of running into a trained ( if not skilled) MMA guy or a grappler is getting higher.

[anerlich]

I think the lesson here is don't post a video of yourself play sparring or allow one to be filmed, those that won't post any videos will be only too happy to tell you its crap


Frost is 100% correct.

[Ali. R]

But it was crap, unless you are trying to take something away from that young man…

Dale didn’t do anything seriously of worth, but get hit and lose control of the takedown over and over again, other then that, it was the “Rahsun Show”, I’m a big fan of this guy, he shows me a lot…

No one will take anything away from him “The Man”; to use the word crap could only point in one direction (Dale’s)…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Frost is 100% correct.

Of course there is also Dale doing the real thing:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=984882#post984882

[goju]

as ive said the thing that was most shocking was that dale play fiights at all

judging by his hilarious pms he sent me saying he spars full out and only fights likethey do in "teh streetz" i would have hought this type of sparring was below such a fearsome beast

:D

[Ali. R]

Even if I put up a clip, you all would do the same as you did to Rahsun, by not recognizing his ability and making many excuses, even if I showed complete domination it wont matter, I know how you guys work and I’m not that stupid…

Because I went through this already before I could even get one up…

Must be in pro setting and not with just a good fighter (I will not fight a student) and many other stipulations=BS... Man, I wonder why?
It only takes one time for me (playing games)…

Never again,



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

A clip like what you guys did was not aloud, in Dale’s own words, even if it was hard contact…

Pro setting only:confused:

I wonder why?:rolleyes:


Ali Rahim.

[Knifefighter]

A clip like what you guys did was not aloud, in Dale’s own words, even if it was hard contact…

Pro setting only:confused:

I wonder why?:rolleyes:

Contrary to what you may think, it seems as if you are quite thick... and that's not only in terms of being fat and out-of-shape.

You know I've never said anyone needs to be in a pro-setting... just hard, full-contact is good enough for me.

And you also know you've never posted a clip of yourself, Mr. Cowardly Fat Guy Liar. Quit trying to insinuate otherwise.

[goju]

Contrary to what you may think, it seems as if you are quite thick... and that's not only in terms of being fat and out-of-shape.

i dont know if youre really in any position to call someone thick( mentally and physically speaking) a simple explanation of the reverse punch seemed to be beyond your comprehension for some odd reason and that infamous clip of you with rahsun showed you to be quite doughy shaped old boy

[Knifefighter]

i dont know if youre really in any position to call someone thick( mentally and physically speaking) a simple explanation of the reverse punch seemed to be beyond your comprehension for some odd reason and that infamous clip of you with rahsun showed you to be quite doughy shaped old boy

LOL... It's hard to be doughy with 6% body fat.

[Wayfaring]

Hmmm. Lessons learned from Rahsun-Dale encounter.

1) Event date - Aug 2006
2) Data drama ends on KFO - Jan 2010 and going strong

Conclusions:

1) Vast majority of WCK practitioners on KFO haven't sparred much in 4 years.
2) % of drama queens on KFO is very high
3) Th3 int3rn3t is serious bizness.

Now as much as I would love to stay here and trade insults with all you b1tches, I actually do have to go to a nogi class followed by a MT class in about 30 min. Hopefully all of those germbags are over the flu.

[goju]

LOL... It's hard to be doughy with 6% body fat.

LOL bro we all know that pic of you on your buisness website is from decades ago

you are no where near six percent body fat in those vids:D

[Phil Redmond]

This is precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about.

That sort of punching -- the fast, chain punching -- is simply bad. It is incredibly weak (the faster your arms with the chain punch, the less you can put your body into it or behind it), and if you did much full-contact sparring, you'd see that for yourself in no time. Not only that, but it leaves you (when doing it in stand-up) open to many easy counters. To do it in compromised positions, only makes it worse.

Now, this is not a criticism of WCK -- it is a criticism of how people use that particular tool.

Why do people do it then? Because they and their teachers don't know better and because they practice doing that in their unrealistic training. Then, they don't put in enough realistic training to see that it does not work (give you good results). And so the cycle of poor training continues.
Thanks for your commentary. It was very helpful to hear from someone who "leads" by example.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .Rashun was displaying a style. Styles tell you how to move, how to react, how to do everything, they take away the naturalness of movement, men become robots when they learn a style.

James
Yeah, I know. You've found the Holy Grail of WC and I'm happy for you.
Rahsun was using principles. Not style. Style, schmyle. We don't advocate style. Styles don't win fights. Individuals do. Rahsun is aware of that. Boxers are taught to keep their guard up. Is that style or simply common sense. Rahsun knew that Dale is a good grappler. He was just trying to be careful and learn. Which he did.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Watching that video clip taught me something here. You can never know exactly who you are talking to on this forum. I have to say that I found it rather funny that anyone would use this clip to make any sort of point. The big guy, he had some form about him and if he had landed those punches, even sitting on his a$$ he would have laid Dale out cold. I have always felt that fighting is an individual thing, and not so much about the fighting system involved. So all the MMA training in the world is worthless if one simply don't have it. I don't think I seen anything that resembled fighting skill in the little so called grappler. Playing grab a$$ or not, it was a pathetic example of any sort of so called game plan for a fight. Maybe I shouldn't be critical and say bad things, but then I am not the one that stuck this video on here and talked about fighting stragogies. It just makes it more and more difficult to take anything you say serious.

[Phil Redmond]

Watching that video clip taught me something here. You can never know exactly who you are talking to on this forum. I have to say that I found it rather funny that anyone would use this clip to make any sort of point. The big guy, he had some form about him and if he had landed those punches, even sitting on his a$$ he would have laid Dale out cold. I have always felt that fighting is an individual thing, and not so much about the fighting system involved. So all the MMA training in the world is worthless if one simply don't have it. I don't think I seen anything that resembled fighting skill in the little so called grappler. Playing grab a$$ or not, it was a pathetic example of any sort of so called game plan for a fight. Maybe I shouldn't be critical and say bad things, but then I am not the one that stuck this video on here and talked about fighting stragogies. It just makes it more and more difficult to take anything you say serious.
In Dale's defense they were just having some fun. We joked and laughed through the whole thing. Here is another way to view Dale's abilities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwLFeIqjQ3Q

[bennyvt]

watched both.
The clips of dale were pretty cool. loved the leg lock sequence, lots of changing positions.
The so called spar, come on, you cant really call it a spar. They were slapping, joking, stopping when it went to the ground and it seemed like they were actually rooling with each other at the start of the encountersa in the first part. At the end dale is even trying to stay in a bad spot to "practice" to get out. The other guy even saying he is not comfortable in that position. This is just like me and my friends used to do. They looked like they both had fun. I would say full out sparing would be like 90% of a fight, this is more like 20%.
I'll answer the stratergy question but. When I am sparing for training, I am trying things out, trying new positions, angles, ranges, submissions (oh no) etc. My stratergy in sparing is to improve and learn new things. In a fight my stratergy is to let my hands go and hit him til he falls, if it goes to the ground either get up, GnP or if it comes up submission. Short of a general game plan unless I actually know who it is, what he is going to do etc (a pre-aranged fight) you can't really have a stratergy.
Hey T. I would like to see video you with some guy around your size, with atleast a decent chain punch. Sit on you in full mount and hit you. Im pretty sure that would shut your mouth. Whether its VT or not anyone in full mount raining punches in any fashion will be knocking you out. My problem with you mainly is that anytime people don't agree you say the whole train like you train thing and the most common the "non-fighter" call. then you just back up and say "well I never said I was good, I just say what actual fighter say." Its just a big round about agrument. lets just take that most people on this board, know chi-sao is not the only exercise you need to learn how to fight (people difer in how important it is), sparing and training with the best people you can find is the only way to get really good, everyone will end up on their back at some point (whether they chose to train for that or not is personal), using modern science methods in your training is the smartest way to train whether this be peridization, different ways of learning the skills, adding aneorobic training etc.
My thoughts are that in a day when you can't just have challenge matches etc, sparing is the closest thing you can do to an actual fight. The level of intensity depends on the goals. Proper Gor sao is not common as you just cant legally have a class that allows people to just fight each other with no protection at all. This is why although their are problems accosiated with using the gear it has become the only available way to train.

[Phil Redmond]

watched both.
The clips of dale were pretty cool. loved the leg lock sequence, lots of changing positions.
The so called spar, come on, you cant really call it a spar. They were slapping, joking, stopping when it went to the ground and it seemed like they were actually rooling with each other at the start of the encountersa in the first part. At the end dale is even trying to stay in a bad spot to "practice" to get out. The other guy even saying he is not comfortable in that position. This is just like me and my friends used to do. They looked like they both had fun. I would say full out sparing would be like 90% of a fight, this is more like 20%.
I'll answer the stratergy question but. When I am sparing for training, I am trying things out, trying new positions, angles, ranges, submissions (oh no) etc. My stratergy in sparing is to improve and learn new things. In a fight my stratergy is to let my hands go and hit him til he falls, if it goes to the ground either get up, GnP or if it comes up submission. Short of a general game plan unless I actually know who it is, what he is going to do etc (a pre-aranged fight) you can't really have a stratergy.
Hey T. I would like to see video you with some guy around your size, with atleast a decent chain punch. Sit on you in full mount and hit you. Im pretty sure that would shut your mouth. Whether its VT or not anyone in full mount raining punches in any fashion will be knocking you out. My problem with you mainly is that anytime people don't agree you say the whole train like you train thing and the most common the "non-fighter" call. then you just back up and say "well I never said I was good, I just say what actual fighter say." Its just a big round about agrument. lets just take that most people on this board, know chi-sao is not the only exercise you need to learn how to fight (people difer in how important it is), sparing and training with the best people you can find is the only way to get really good, everyone will end up on their back at some point (whether they chose to train for that or not is personal), using modern science methods in your training is the smartest way to train whether this be peridization, different ways of learning the skills, adding aneorobic training etc.
My thoughts are that in a day when you can't just have challenge matches etc, sparing is the closest thing you can do to an actual fight. The level of intensity depends on the goals. Proper Gor sao is not common as you just cant legally have a class that allows people to just fight each other with no protection at all. This is why although their are problems accosiated with using the gear it has become the only available way to train.

If only T could understand what you wrote. :confused:

[SAAMAG]

Wow. First, thanks to Dale and Rashun for allowing this to be posted up knowing the welcome it would receive on this board.

IMHO...it wasn't a sparring session at all, but moreso a training session. Just some regular old light training. This wasn't some fight to the death nor did involve any bad blood or ego. So why is there such on the thread about it?

Detach, step back, and really look at it. Don't read into it, don't create some crazy militaristic event that isn't there. They were goofing off. If they WEREN'T goofing off...well...lets just say that neither one should admit that if that's the case.

I come to this conclusion because no one seriously shoots from that far away and without any sort of setup just diving in...unless they're just messin' around; and well the other guy wasn't doing anything but chain punching and slapping hands which isn't wing chun in my opinion since there wasn't any control or intent... but is perfectly fine if they were just messin around or experimenting.

[t_niehoff]

Hey T. I would like to see video you with some guy around your size, with atleast a decent chain punch. Sit on you in full mount and hit you. Im pretty sure that would shut your mouth. Whether its VT or not anyone in full mount raining punches in any fashion will be knocking you out.


I wasn't talking about using them in full mount -- where you can use much more body leverage --but how they are typically used, as follow-up in stand-up (tan da followed by lin wan choi, for example) or in compromised positions.

Letme ask you, why do you think so many use those punches as follow up? 1) they don't know how weak they are (since they don't put them into full-contact), 2) that's what they practice doing, 3) they don't know what else to do.



My problem with you mainly is that anytime people don't agree you say the whole train like you train thing and the most common the "non-fighter" call. then you just back up and say "well I never said I was good, I just say what actual fighter say." Its just a big round about agrument. lets just take that most people on this board, know chi-sao is not the only exercise you need to learn how to fight (people difer in how important it is), sparing and training with the best people you can find is the only way to get really good, everyone will end up on their back at some point (whether they chose to train for that or not is personal), using modern science methods in your training is the smartest way to train whether this be peridization, different ways of learning the skills, adding aneorobic training etc.
My thoughts are that in a day when you can't just have challenge matches etc, sparing is the closest thing you can do to an actual fight. The level of intensity depends on the goals. Proper Gor sao is not common as you just cant legally have a class that allows people to just fight each other with no protection at all. This is why although their are problems accosiated with using the gear it has become the only available way to train.

You say people get it, but I don't think they do. Phil, for example, teaches/advocates point hitting with the fingers. Cheung gives seminars on it. Do they get it? Are they doing that in full-contact sparring, are they training like they fight?

You don't need to fight spar with no protective gear to develop very good skills -- boxers, MMAfighters, MTfighters, etc. use gear.

[t_niehoff]

Rashun was displaying a style. Styles tell you how to move, how to react, how to do everything, they take away the naturalness of movement, men become robots when they learn a style.

I agree with you. Rashun's movement was robotic and stylistically-programmed.

Contrary to Phils' take (that Rashun was using "concepts"), the basis for WCK or any fighting art is movement, how you move your body.

[Dragonzbane76]

I just can't understand why you guys are making such a big deal about 2 guys light sparring?????

Some of you seem to be out for knifefighters blood. I don't always agree with him but i give him props for stepping into the ring and doing what he does. until you've actually tested yourself on a level like that you don't understand.

Anyways, this is the dumbest conversation. Why don't you guys break down the vid of him actually fighting. Would make more sense than the one of him playing around. :confused:

[HumbleWCGuy]

I just can't understand why you guys are making such a big deal about 2 guys light sparring?????

Some of you seem to be out for knifefighters blood. I don't always agree with him but i give him props for stepping into the ring and doing what he does. until you've actually tested yourself on a level like that you don't understand.

Anyways, this is the dumbest conversation. Why don't you guys break down the vid of him actually fighting. Would make more sense than the one of him playing around. :confused:

That's because he is a jerk who insists on telling everyone how tough and knowledgeable he is all the time. When it comes down to it, well it speaks for itself. If it were anyone else (other than that punching bag with eyeballs niehoff), nothing would be said, but...

[bennyvt]

you say people don't know how weak they are. I know when you see some idiot wailling away with with them yes. There are fools in all styles. But to say when done properly is has no power them you went to the wrong class. Which vt school did you learn at. We bjj know the faster you go the less power but when you understand this is in only as east as your power allows them they can be very strong. Most just go as fast as they can, as you said this is like a fairy tap.. I know it doesn't count to you but i have knocked out people way bigger then me with them. But the chain punch should only be used when you already have them. I have only done this after a good strike when they are starting to go backyards. No i have never just leaped at someone throwing again punches. Like vitor belfort verses silva. As he caught him he chased him down to hit him as many times before he hit the ground.i totally agree about the pressure point stuff. Being a remedial massage guy i had to endure alot of that when learning. Wsl always taught that it wasn't real. He once smashed a guy who was a dim mak guy and after smashing his face in a car bonnet the guy said he had hit him with the dim mak and he would die soon. He told this story decades latter with a im still waiting. And yes the block and strike at the same time as a very jow used block. I have only done this when people have wound back from a distance and thrown big looping things. I have done it though as being tiny people think he they run at you. You will cower and stand there.. So as you say any one that can fight is not going to do that. I was always taught vt as more of a boxing style thing. Using the punch to block you don't want to use two hands unless one is stuck.. .

[bennyvt]

sorry at work using the phone. Bloody pre emptive text. Bjj is all- you can guess the others.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Anyone can get into a ring with someone of the same skill set and make a good showing, but in the play fight video where Dale was supposedly showing his stratogies for take down, he was not showing any kind of skill at all. First of all, jumping about and waving your arms is an obvious attempt at distraction, and it also leaves one with no foundation, and the arms are in no position to defend or attack. If an opponent realizes this, and and serious fighter is going to see it quickly, he can come in fast and bust you wide open. Also, when you shoot for a takedown, just dropping down and bear hugging his lower leg is going to get your brains damaged. You can not sacrifice your head just to get into his lower body. You have to have a better entry than that. For instance, aggression rather than dancing about waving your hands to distract. Come in with guns blazing to distract, even if the punches are not connecting or ever getting close, as they are a true distraction that is not seen as such, but seen as a direct frontal attack. As the opponent defends against this frontal attack you drop and head long hit him with the shoulder as you wrap an arm around his knee and lift. He can not stand to this and will go over backwards hard. What you do then is up to you. Another thing is that once the guy knows what you are up to or trying to do, you need to move on. You will have to wait another time to attempt it again as he will know full well what you are trying to do and hammer you every time you try it.
I know that it was just a play session, but to use it as an example of what to do is not appropriate and should actually be an example of what not to do. In watching the other video footage, I have to say again that this is not a clear sign of skills that should be used as an example. I just seen 2 guys going at it, which any 2 guys can do. You will never see any of these guys on pay per view tv either.

LCP

[Knifefighter]

Also, when you shoot for a takedown, just dropping down and bear hugging his lower leg is going to get your brains damaged. You can not sacrifice your head just to get into his lower body.

Ah, yes, more ramblings from another theoretical, fantasy, non-fighter. The fact is, when someone clamps on a low single leg, your only option is to defend to get out of it. Trying to hit someone in the head, not only does no damage, but it gets you taken down. I've used the exact same move in full contact stick fighting. The upright person doesn't have the leverage to do any damage.


You have to have a better entry than that. For instance, aggression rather than dancing about waving your hands to distract. Come in with guns blazing to distract, even if the punches are not connecting or ever getting close, as they are a true distraction that is not seen as such, but seen as a direct frontal attack. As the opponent defends against this frontal attack you drop and head long hit him with the shoulder as you wrap an arm around his knee and lift. He can not stand to this and will go over backwards hard. What you do then is up to you. Another thing is that once the guy knows what you are up to or trying to do, you need to move on. You will have to wait another time to attempt it again as he will know full well what you are trying to do and hammer you every time you try it.

Please post a clip of you doing this against a resisting opponent. Of course, we all know you have never fought full-contact in your life.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You are right, I have never had a stick fight, and have never fought in a ring as such except at a boys club and that was simple boxing. I have had probably more serious fights outside the ring than you have, and that has taught me a great deal. I don't have video clips of that either. I am getting old now, and video was not even a dream then. I don't plan on making any video either. However, I did see some of yours, and I have to admit that just doing it shows guts, but you are not all that good. I have tossed guys tougher than you out on their heads. Like I said, you are not ever going to make it to pay per view TV because you only think you have skills. You are going to have to learn more and stop thinking you already know it. Besides, at your age you are just never going to get there. I am just being honest to you. If you feel the need to insult, go ahead. It does not make your words any more credible, but certainly does give some insight into your personal character.

LCP

[Knifefighter]

I don't plan on making any video either.

Of course you don't. Like most theoretical fantasy non-fighters, the best you can do is pontificate about other people and your "deadly encounters on the street. God forbid, you should actually do anything more strenuous than a form or two.

[uki]

wow. that's all i can say

[goju]

Ah, yes, more ramblings from another theoretical, fantasy, non-fighter. The fact is, when someone clamps on a low single leg, your only option is to defend to get out of it. Trying to hit someone in the head, not only does NO DAMAGE,


WHAT!?!?!!!!!!:eek:

the hell it doesnt gettingpunche dint he head is getting punched in the head bubba

not to mention as i said he could had up kicked you into next week with his other leg

[sanjuro_ronin]

WHAT!?!?!!!!!!:eek:

the hell it doesnt gettingpunche dint he head is getting punched in the head bubba

not to mention as i said he could had up kicked you into next week with his other leg

Seriously, dude, you are way off on this one.
You have NO balance to do ANY of that when someone has control of one of your legs and knows what they are doing.

[goju]

yes thats IF they know what they are doing

[anerlich]

Anyways, this is the dumbest conversation.

100% correct.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

gettingpunche dint he head is getting punched in the head

I can think of 4 distinct variations of getting punched in the head.

1. I get sucker punched out of no where. That's at least a knock down, but could be a knock out.

2. I get hammered so hard that it doesn't matter how well I braced. TKO or KO.

3. I get hammered hard, but not so hard that I can't brace against it enough that I stay standing. I'm mildly shocked. Proper offense on the part of my opponent will end the fight (hint: proper offense is not necessarily punching me in the head again.)

4. I get hammered hard repetitively, but not so hard that I can't brace against it enough that I stay aware. The first punch shocks me a bit, but by the 3rd punch I'm used to it and am back in the game, looking to turn the tables again.

The chain punches I've seen taught and used are are usually delivered w/ equal strength. Most often, my experience getting hit by these kinds of chain punches has been #4, especially since people who start chain punching often either just keep going or stop outright, as if inspecting their work. If they just threw the flurry and then moved on to something appropriate to the situation they've created, they'd have much more success. Of course, in light sparring the chain punch's effect is almost completely negated, so even if you use it and then look to adapt, you'll find virtually nothing to adapt to, because the chain punches didn't do what they were meant to do.

I find #3 or #4 to be the norm if I'm grappling w/ someone and they try to punch me... they just can't issue the power needed, since I can brace into THEM as well as into the ground. Now, if they elbow me or knee me, that's a different story!

Rashun's demonstrated intent to punch Dale in the head the way he did as Dale tackled his leg would, in my opinion, elicit response #4. Dale would just keep going. In light sparring, the only available option really would be to attempt an escape or go for a dominant position, which Rashun also did a few times.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I agree with you. Rashun's movement was robotic and stylistically-programmed." (T. Niehoff)

..............................................

***BUT YET Rahsun has enough going for him to put you (Niehoff) down and out (cold) if he felt like it. Go figure, huh!!!??? :rolleyes:

Terence Niehoff is the biggest phony to ever post on this forum.

There's no way in hell that he'll ever spar (for real) with anybody around here (the latest deleted thread by Phil Redmond being the proof of this once again)...

but man, can Niehoff talk a great game, can't he? :cool:

"Sure I'll spar you," he says, then this is always followed by..."But why do you want to spar me, I keep saying that I'm not very good. No, you should go the nearest (fill in the blank for the mma or bjj school nearest you)...and then you'll see that your wing chun doesn't work."

The guy is a friggin' joke. :o

[goju]

ah so thats what happened with the thread:D

[YungChun]

Actually, he did exactly what someone should do if he wants to have the best chance of not being taken down by someone who is trying to do that. Someone who applies forward pressure makes it much easier to be taken down.


Disagree..

If is has come down to WCK needing to stay away to delay loosing it's time to change tactics...

WCK is not just about using 'forward pressure' whatever folks may mean by that, it's about closing to impart force/energy and balance destruction, just like a grappler does but to a different end (blasting) with different tools... If I can't take your balance then I'd prefer to get submitted/or taken down at least trying to do what I do rather than pretend to and run away, only to delay the inevitable.

[t_niehoff]

"I agree with you. Rashun's movement was robotic and stylistically-programmed." (T. Niehoff)

..............................................

***BUT YET Rahsun has enough going for him to put you (Niehoff) down and out (cold) if he felt like it. Go figure, huh!!!??? :rolleyes:

Terence Niehoff is the biggest phony to ever post on this forum.

There's no way in hell that he'll ever spar (for real) with anybody around here (the latest deleted thread by Phil Redmond being the proof of this once again)...

but man, can Niehoff talk a great game, can't he? :cool:

"Sure I'll spar you," he says, then this is always followed by..."But why do you want to spar me, I keep saying that I'm not very good. No, you should go the nearest (fill in the blank for the mma or bjj school nearest you)...and then you'll see that your wing chun doesn't work."

The guy is a friggin' joke. :o

I'm the biggest phony? Hmmm. I would have thought that title would go to the guy who has never taken a lesson of catch in his life, only learns via video, refuses to roll with anyone but his own students (certainly not with any skilled guys) - who he teaches catch, who argues with BJJ BBs with 30 years of grappling experience about grappling, and deludes himself intothinking he is a catch authority. I'd have thought that guy was THE friggin' joke.

I'm sorry it bothers you that I don't make any claims of being particularly good or hold myself out as an example or authority. I'll leave that to people like you.

[goju]

I'm the biggest phony? Hmmm. I would have thought that title would go to the guy who has never taken a lesson of catch in his life, only learns via video, refuses to roll with anyone but his own students (certainly not with any skilled guys) - who he teaches catch, who argues with BJJ BBs with 30 years of grappling experience about grappling, and deludes himself intothinking he is a catch authority. I'd have thought that guy was THE friggin' joke.

I'm sorry it bothers you that I don't make any claims of being particularly good or hold myself out as an example or authority. I'll leave that to people like you.

lol someones touchy:D

[t_niehoff]

lol someones touchy:D

Not touchy, just one of the very few on this forum with any sense of irony.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're fooling no one, Niehoff.

The reason why you've never posted a vid of yourself doing ANYTHING is because you know
(and so does just about everybody around here) that once you did that - you would be exposed COMPLETELY as a "poser"....


you TALK a good game - but you can't DO basically anything that's worth seeing.

And if you can't DO - then you shouldn't try to come off as someone who REALLY KNOWS what he's talking about...

and talking about....

and talking about....

and talking about...

and talking about...

THIS IS THE OLDEST GAME IN THE WORLD, PAL.

But it's a game that never stops being anything in the end other than BULL5HIT.

[anerlich]

Not touchy, just one of the very few on this forum with any sense of irony.

Which unfortunately does not extend to your own personal-experience-unrelated pontifications.

[Frost]

A grappler wants forward, or at least stationary, inertia for his takedown. Setups are mostly based on this fact... street, ring doesn't matter.

As always Dale is right, as I said in the other thread Rashun’s strategy of not engaging is a very sound one if you are looking to avoid the takedown, moving backwards or better still lateral movement and not committing to an attack is the best way to avoid the takedown, I want the guy coming at me (ideal) or stationary (better than nothing) when I am looking for the take down, the last thing I want oto do is run after the guy, this opens you up for a beating.

The problem becomes how to hurt the opponent when you are always moving and can’t plant your feet or put your bodyweight into the shot (but that’s another thread entirely)

[Frost]

Just be a man.....

If grown men test each other (in whatever physical) that’s just what it is two men and nothing more proving a point, if one doesn’t like the outcome, he or she shouldn’t have been there…

Reach, age, height, weight or whatever doesn’t mean a thing when two gladiators meet up, if its training or whatever (real men), in which they had no choice but to be there, just to live... They didn’t cry foul in training…

Rahsun could of got hurt if he was hit with some of those wild (just having fun) strikes, very heavy handed as well (let’s JFK it to prove that point). Rashun hit him many times, I'm pretty sure I'm the olny that sees this.:confused:

But when two men meet up on their own: they put themselves out there for the world see, and should deal with the outcome like a man the same way he thought he would feel when walking away from that contest of this so-called nothing, and by knowing it was being filmed, each MAN had to walk away feeling like a man (both did their best)…

More respect if one just came out and said, “the kid had a good day and display great skills” (humble), rather then taking it this far… If I was him, I’ve would of learned a lot from this thread…

But I already knew better,


Ali Rahim

He did give both phil and his stundent props and respexct right after the encounter

"
Props to Phil Redomond

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, worlds collided and I met up with Phil and a couple of his students. Phil is a great guy with some funny stories... and I like what he and his guys are doing with WC. Phil is a great representative for WC.

Phil’s senior student (I apologize that I have forgotten his name) greatly impressed me, not only with his WC skills, but, even more so, as to how he came across as a person of integrity and loyalty. It’s too bad that he is heading off for Australia, as it would be fun to get together with him and explore additional ideas.

I definitely came away with a better respect for what some people are doing with WC, as well as an interest in checking things out further in the future.

Phil, next time you are here, make sure to get in touch with me again."

[Frost]

Sihing, just my 2 cents on running into a skilled grappler. I agree that the numbers would not be high but to put a little twist into it.

How many of those you might run into on the street or in a bar don't have experience watching MMA, at least enough to be familiar with the strategy of 'ground and pound'?

Take them down, sit on their chest and feed them their teeth is not a hard concept to pick up. :eek:

As for the skills to do it, well I’ll bet a large number of those people have played a fair amount of tackle football in their day even if only on the local empty lot. I’d be willing to bet that even some of them have some high school wrestling experience.

IMO being aware of the takedown is always a good idea and knowing how to get out from under someone who is on top of you is not a bad skill to have either.

I would also argue you are more likely to meet a grappler than a TCMA student on the streets, wrestling and football are in all the major schools/colleges in the states, in the UK Judo is the most popular combat sport by far and rugby is everywhere

The fact is grappling is what you are most likely to meet in the streets aside from boxing

[Frost]

The chances of running into a trained ( if not skilled) MMA guy or a grappler is getting higher.

And as i said, if not a trained MMA/grappler it will be someone who has done football or rugby and knows how to take punishment, take someone down and control them on the ground to some extent.

wrestling and judo are probably the two most organised and widely spread martial arts on the planet (along with boxing) and rugby and american football two of the mosts popular sports

[Frost]

But it was crap, unless you are trying to take something away from that young man…

Dale didn’t do anything seriously of worth, but get hit and lose control of the takedown over and over again, other then that, it was the “Rahsun Show”, I’m a big fan of this guy, he shows me a lot…

No one will take anything away from him “The Man”; to use the word crap could only point in one direction (Dale’s)…


Ali Rahim.


The idea was not to continue after the takedown, he scored three take downs in 5 minutes, which is very good when playing with someone who is defeinsive and avoiding the take down at all costs (which both Dale and I have said is a good strategy)

What exactly did he showe you them, break it down for us and enlighten us

I really think you need to engage your brain before posting

[Frost]

WHAT!?!?!!!!!!:eek:

the hell it doesnt gettingpunche dint he head is getting punched in the head bubba

not to mention as i said he could had up kicked you into next week with his other leg

Its comments like this that really make me wonder if you have done any training outside of your own backyard

[goju]

Its comments like this that really make me wonder if you have done any training outside of your own backyard
and exactly what part of that was wrong ?

[Frost]

and exactly what part of that was wrong ?

you will not have any balance to punch effectively when someone has a single leg locked in on you, and trying to kick them is just f*cking stupid and the kind of response you would expect from someone with no training experience

[goju]

you will not have any balance to punch effectively when someone has a single leg locked in on you, and trying to kick them is just f*cking stupid and the kind of response you would expect from someone with no training experience

wow thanks for misunderstanding me bud:D


yes that true but is they are just clinging on your leg and both your feet are planted on the ground then you have power to punch

i didnt say you could issue alot of power trying to strike someone if they grab your leg and take off like rocket with it leaving you hopping all over the place



so its stupid to up kick when your are on your back and one legs is free (or both?)

wow all these mma guys must be doing something wrong frost!!! you should warn them!

i really think you completely misunderstood my post and then rambled off on something that had nothing to do with it

please reconsider calling something "****in stupid" in the meantime

[Frost]

wow thanks for misunderstanding me bud:D


yes that true but is they are just clinging on your leg and both your feet are planted on the ground then you have power to punch

i didnt say you could issue alot of power trying to strike someone if they grab your leg and take off like rocket with it leaving you hopping all over the place



so its stupid to up kick when your are on your back and one legs is free (or both?)

wow all these mma guys must be doing something wrong frost!!! you should warn them!

i really think you completely misunderstood my post and then rambled off on something that had nothing to do with it

please reconsider calling something "****in stupid" in the meantime

the punches would not work in any of the videos you have seen of dale as as soon as he had the leg he moved and went for the take down (the two myspace videos) also on those two myspace videos there was no chance in either one for an up kick from Rashun, Dale was too close and controlling the leg. Now have you seen another of Dales videos, the full version is that what you are refering to when you said he could get kicked? because i thought you could not few youtube and had only seen those two myspace videos and that was what i was comentating on

If i am wrong and you have seen the full video and were comentating on that then my bad and i am sorry

[goju]

the punches would not work in any of the videos you have seen of dale as as soon as he had the leg he moved and went for the take down (the two myspace videos) also on those two myspace videos there was no chance in either one for an up kick from Rashun, Dale was too close and controlling the leg. Now have you seen another of Dales videos, the full version is that what you are refering to when you said he could get kicked? because i thought you could not few youtube and had only seen those two myspace videos and that was what i was comentating on

If i am wrong and you have seen the full video and were comentating on that then my bad and i am sorry

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=aThQSzhqcWuRpX1k1WHM&dale-franks-rahsun-herkul-in-la

this is the clip i viewed ( i havent seen the whole shabang ) shows him getting punched a few times with the first shoot and it wasnt a fast single leg take down
like say the one coleman uses at in this fight with fedor where all fedor could do was try his best to remain from falling down
http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=MDNZTkJrcWuRpdW90aUU&fedor-emelianenko-vs-mark-coleman-high-quality

as for the up kick again after the first take down when he fell one of his legs is clearly free for a time and he could have kicked at dales noggin

[Frost]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=aThQSzhqcWuRpX1k1WHM&dale-franks-rahsun-herkul-in-la

this is the clip i viewed ( i havent seen the whole shabang ) shows him getting punched a few times with the first shoot and it wasnt a fast single leg take down
like say the one coleman uses at in this fight with fedor where all fedor could do was try his best to remain from falling down
http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=MDNZTkJrcWuRpdW90aUU&fedor-emelianenko-vs-mark-coleman-high-quality

as for the up kick again after the first take down when he fell one of his legs is clearly free for a time and he could have kicked at dales noggin

sorry i can't agree with the kick thing, on all those clips dale is controlling at least one leg after completing the takedown, he is simply not in a position to get kicked with any force, he is either too close or controlling a leg

as for the punches he was not moving for a few seconds but rashun did not have a good base to punch from and was constantly hopping around, maybe you can see different opponunities but i can;t see anywhere where dale was open for a kick on the ground, and with the takedowns he either finished the single quickly enough not to take any real punishment or switched to a double

[t_niehoff]

You're fooling no one, Niehoff.

The reason why you've never posted a vid of yourself doing ANYTHING is because you know
(and so does just about everybody around here) that once you did that - you would be exposed COMPLETELY as a "poser"....


you TALK a good game - but you can't DO basically anything that's worth seeing.

And if you can't DO - then you shouldn't try to come off as someone who REALLY KNOWS what he's talking about...

and talking about....

and talking about....

and talking about...

and talking about...

THIS IS THE OLDEST GAME IN THE WORLD, PAL.

But it's a game that never stops being anything in the end other than BULL5HIT.

The reason I don't post videos of myself is because I don't want to do the same thing you and Phil and others do -- put myself out there as an example of good WCK. NONE OF US are that good. This is apparently what you guys don't grasp. IF, and I mean IF, you went and sparred with good fighters, you'd KNOW THAT YOU AREN'T THAT GOOD as they would EASILY take you apart.

It's the same with your catch. You believe yourself an expert BECAUSE you've never gone to a good BJJ school and rolled. If you did that they would EASILY take you apart, and you'd know that you weren't a grappling authority.

I will leave the videos, the using yourself as an example, etc. of what is good fighting to very good fighters. They, not me -- and certainly not people like you -- should be our example of how to fight, what to do, what not to do, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yes thats IF they know what they are doing

Ah, so your training is based on the hopeful assumption that the person you will be fighting DOESN'T know how to fight?
Good luck with that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The reason I don't post videos of myself is because I don't want to do the same thing you and Phil and others do-- put myself out there as an example of good WCK. NONE OF US are that good."
(T. Niehoff)

...............................


***AND ONCE AGAIN T. Niehoff exposes himself and his TRUE MOTIVES for always trying to say that wing chun is ineffective.

He can't make it work (the reason why he's never put up a vid)...and his ego being as HUGE and as INSECURE as it is (no, that's not a contradiction in terms, ie.- many people hide massive feelings of insecurity and inferiority behind big displays of bravado and pompousness)...

his ego being as HUGE and as INSECURE as it is:

he wants to make sure (in his own delusionary way) that NOBODY ELSE CAN MAKE WING CHUN WORK.

The guy is pathetic.

But I thought we already knew that! :confused:

I guess a little reminder now-and-again is a good thing! ;)

[t_niehoff]

"The reason I don't post videos of myself is because I don't want to do the same thing you and Phil and others do-- put myself out there as an example of good WCK. NONE OF US are that good." (T. Niehoff)

...............................


***AND ONCE AGAIN T. Niehoff exposes himself and his TRUE MOTIVES for always trying to say that wing chun is ineffective.


Victor, Victor, pay attention. I've said this before -- I am not saying WCK is ineffective. I'm saying the way it is taught and trained ineffective.

And because of that, we get all kinds of nonsense -- stuff like finger strikesto pressure points, simul blocking and striking, speedy ruffle punching, hopping entry techniques,etc.

All anyone needs to do is spar with some people with decent attributes and skills and they will see that these things either don't work or are low percentage/high risk. Apparently it has never dawned on you that the fact that you hardly ever see any of these things in sparring is proof of their lack of usefulness.



He can't make it work (the reason why he's never put up a vid)...and his ego being as HUGE and as INSECURE as it is (no, that's not a contradiction in terms, ie.- many people hide massive feelings of insecurity and inferiority behind big displays of bravado and pompousness)...

his ego being as HUGE and as INSECURE as it is:

he wants to make sure (in his own delusionary way) that NOBODY ELSE CAN MAKE WING CHUN WORK.


I'm certain there are people who can make it work -- the people who train like modern fighters: people who cross-train, train/spar with good, skilled people, etc. Just not people who do what you do.

[m1k3]

:D
Ah, so your training is based on the hopeful assumption that the person you will be fighting DOESN'T know how to fight?
Good luck with that.

Actually, that is probably what most people are training for. And since they will probably never be in a situation where it is tested they will assume what they know is the real deal, and then they become instructors teaching the same stuff to people who will never have to test it and then they become instructors...


Pretty soon you have a whole bunch of schools teaching all sorts of stuff until this little guy from Brazil comes along and well you know the rest.

Oh, wait, some of you don't know the end to this story do you? Too bad. :D

[goju]

Ah, so your training is based on the hopeful assumption that the person you will be fighting DOESN'T know how to fight?
Good luck with that.

not every one lands their move right all the time even if they are good

theres plenty of shoots that fail from good grapplers

[Frost]

not every one lands their move right all the time even if they are good

theres plenty of shoots that fail from good grapplers

and there are plently that are sucessful, don't you think it makes more sense to train for the moves that work the most against good opposition?

if i can defend a single leg from a good grappler (keep my weight on the leg move it to the outside, crossface him, sprawl the leg back and out of the single etc) then defending a bad single is relatively easy, learning how to defend a bad single (say standing there and punching downward) and then trying to efend a good single is not so easy

it the same with the shot,why learn to defend a bad shot when in learning to defend a good shot you also learn how to deal with a bad one?

[sanjuro_ronin]

:d

actually, that is probably what most people are training for. And since they will probably never be in a situation where it is tested they will assume what they know is the real deal, and then they become instructors teaching the same stuff to people who will never have to test it and then they become instructors...


Pretty soon you have a whole bunch of schools teaching all sorts of stuff until this little guy from brazil comes along and well you know the rest.

Oh, wait, some of you don't know the end to this story do you? Too bad. :d

bbawwahhhhh !!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

not every one lands their move right all the time even if they are good

theres plenty of shoots that fail from good grapplers

Dude....*shakes head*

[sanjuro_ronin]

and there are plently that are sucessful, don't you think it makes more sense to train for the moves that work the most against good opposition?

if i can defend a single leg from a good grappler (keep my weight on the leg move it to the outside, crossface him, sprawl the leg back and out of the single etc) then defending a bad single is relatively easy, learning how to defend a bad single (say standing there and punching downward) and then trying to efend a good single is not so easy

it the same with the shot,why learn to defend a bad shot when in learning to defend a good shot you also learn how to deal with a bad one?

**** your common sense !!
**** it all to hell !!!!

Let me see, training VS trained fighters and developing skills that work on THEM and be default, pretty much everyone.
VS
Training to fight un-trained people with the hope of never facing a trained fighter and developing skills that work on unskilled people in the hope that they will be good enough for you not to be anally raped.
Hmmm
Quite the conundrum...

[Frost]

**** your common sense !!
**** it all to hell !!!!

Let me see, training VS trained fighters and developing skills that work on THEM and be default, pretty much everyone.
VS
Training to fight un-trained people with the hope of never facing a trained fighter and developing skills that work on unskilled people in the hope that they will be good enough for you not to be anally raped.
Hmmm
Quite the conundrum...

One would think it was not a hard decision, but then all one has to do is read some of the posts on this thread to realise how truely messed up some peoples thinking is

[t_niehoff]

One would think it was not a hard decision, but then all one has to do is read some of the posts on this thread to realise how truely messed up some peoples thinking is

Amen, brother.

[goju]

Dude....*shakes head*

wow okay il chanage my mind shoots never fail

makes perfect sense:D

[goju]

and there are plently that are sucessful, don't you think it makes more sense to train for the moves that work the most against good opposition?

if i can defend a single leg from a good grappler (keep my weight on the leg move it to the outside, crossface him, sprawl the leg back and out of the single etc) then defending a bad single is relatively easy, learning how to defend a bad single (say standing there and punching downward) and then trying to efend a good single is not so easy

it the same with the shot,why learn to defend a bad shot when in learning to defend a good shot you also learn how to deal with a bad one?

the reading comprehension in this thread is astounding

i didnt say its has alow percentage chance of working im just saying at times it will fail like everything else

even good grapplers fail their shoot attempts as well it just happens

[taai gihk yahn]

even good grapplers fail their shoot attempts as well it just happens
yeah, but the VAST majority of the time the reason that a "good" grappler fails the shoot is not because he did it wrong, it's because it was properly defended by someone with equal or greater skill; the percentage of time that a "good" grappler blows a shoot just because he had a brain f@rt is so low that to even consider it in the formula of one's fighting strategy is not worthwhile; that's why he's "good"...

[bennyvt]

yeh i don't think i have seen a guy shoot and fail when the guy hasn't tried to stop him. Unless he just fell over or something. Just a thing on the forward pressure. This is normally a concept for the hands. The body sort of but not to the extent of always stepping forward which we all know makes the take down easier. I think i started practicing with my mate as i watched ufc etc for years. I wanted to see if i could get out of them once on the ground. I found the big thing was position. Like i could get out of the arm and wrist stuff but still on my back and eventually get tapped. I wanted to learn to shoot so i knew what was coming and could show my guys what to expect. My main suprise was the leverage as opposed to brute pushing. Now i have enough confidence i can at worst get out of stuff and stand up, my stand up is more fluid as i'm not terrified of going to the ground. And i really find it fun. Like when i first started training. So it has kept me interested in my vt training as well..

[Phil Redmond]

yeh i don't think i have seen a guy shoot and fail when the guy hasn't tried to stop him. Unless he just fell over or something. Just a thing on the forward pressure. This is normally a concept for the hands. The body sort of but not to the extent of always stepping forward which we all know makes the take down easier. I think i started practicing with my mate as i watched ufc etc for years. I wanted to see if i could get out of them once on the ground. I found the big thing was position. Like i could get out of the arm and wrist stuff but still on my back and eventually get tapped. I wanted to learn to shoot so i knew what was coming and could show my guys what to expect. My main suprise was the leverage as opposed to brute pushing. Now i have enough confidence i can at worst get out of stuff and stand up, my stand up is more fluid as i'm not terrified of going to the ground. And i really find it fun. Like when i first started training. So it has kept me interested in my vt training as well..

So true. There is no reason to be afraid of a shot by anyone, even a pro. Momentum is momentum. A shot can be redirected or avoided as easily as a shot can be applied.