Different Boxing Sets

[Eugene]

Hello people,

I have a question,

Is it possible that like where I live in Holland where we have 10 reformed churches, it could be the same with for example as what I read here a Luo Han set ? First there was one, like the church, Katholic and because of people and self expression and different ideas more forms develop, so in time there will be 100 Luo Han sets ? Each student changes one position and thrue time the whole form is gone ?

Peace out, Eugene :)

[kfson]

Tai Chi????

[Lucas]

that is definately an element to the change of routines. when you are using martial arts for real life, you will adapt it to fit your circumstances.

if you go and learn a martial art from another country and then go home. the environment at your home may be different. sometimes incorporating what your local region does into your personal martial art is a very good idea. The way people fight in your area will be directly related to the things you need to know and practice to be able to successfully defend yourself in that area. that is part of the essence of what shaolin boxing is.

so in regard to your concern, yes sometimes that is the case, the material is lost. however sometimes it is still contained, yet added to, or adapted. maybe some taken away, who knows, but it depends on the people.

some times people take these materials, routines, methods, etc. and they keep them in tact, even after evolving the boxing to fit their life and goals. sometimes, not so much.

if you learn to build a boat from people who live on an island with very calm, shallow reef filled water, and you take that boat to a land with large deep open sea's with many storm and violent water; your boat building skills will still come to use, but you will need to adapt the material to meet your goals of sailing the different waters. the new boat may not work well for your old island, but it is still a useful sailing craft.

[Shaolin]

If I teach 100 student one form the world now has 101 different forms. Every student adds a piece of their own soul to each new idea they learn. The arts that have been passed on to me have seen 34 generations before me; they are not the same as they were so long ago. This is not a bad thing. A good teacher not only passes on the gift of knowledge to his students the also the value to cherish the arts and to leave them better than the way they were received. I meet/have met a lot of "traditionalist" that seem to be stuck on only doing things the old way; and that if it's not performed the old way the material somehow losses it's value. This is a close minded approach to learning any art form. Performing a routine the old way or just because the teacher said so, is good for beginners, first they must learn the rules. When they graduate to the advanced levels they now need to learn how to break those same rules and interpret them.

[Eugene]

Should we not protect the old forms before they are all gone to peoples need to change things. I myself am going with time, but when it comes to learn a routine, I want to respect the inventor the most by doing it the same as he made it up.

My ego, could want it to be different, but when I do a set, I enjoy doing it as close to how it should be. The inventor didnt make it up for nothing, I understand to get some creativity out of it or emotion, but a stance is a stance right ?

In the weekend i practice tai chi, and also 6 people have a totaly different idea onthe yang style. One say : you have to control the breathing my the movement, the other : let the breathing just flow, the other, breath in and out the nose, the other : breath in the nose, and out the mouth,
Even, the first movement peopel almost get a war about !

That is almost funny, but what does it show ?

I dont know, I am still a newbie, but hate to see the old routines get lost by peoples ego.

Peace Out, Eugene :)

[kfson]

Change should be good if it's made by high level practitioners, Chen>Yang>Wu>Sun>Chen Pan Ling tai chis, for example.

I'm not a high level practitioner, but shouldn't the mind, breathing, directing chi, etc. be holistic?

[GeneChing]

One of the most fundamental tenets of Chan is that all things are impermanent. Accordingly, forms are subject to change. If they were permanent, they would be outside of Chan. And if there's no Chan, it's not really Shaolin. :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the most fundamental tenets of Chan is that all things are impermanent. Accordingly, forms are subject to change. If they were permanent, they would be outside of Chan. And if there's no Chan, it's not really Shaolin. :cool:

Wow !
I bet if I read that while stoned it would be awesome !!!

[GeneChing]

...unless you are stoned NOW, in which case, it's so awesome that it sobered you up and you forgot you were stoned. And if that happened, that was some marvelous Chan. :)

[Shaolin]

Should we not protect the old forms before they are all gone to peoples need to change things? I myself am going with time, but when it comes to learn a routine, I want to respect the inventor the most by doing it the same as he made it up.

Yes. Unfortunately teachers still change or permit change to occur for various reasons that don't benefit the arts. For example one might change material to make it easier on students so they can keep and gain more students to keep business open. The teacher themselves don't fully understand the material and therefore allows little changes to slip in through poor performance by themselves or students (this occurrence is common amongst students who try to become teachers to soon). Ego gets the best of them and changes are made based off of personal opinion rather than personal experience.

Early on I learned that we must first learn where we come from before we can discover ourselves. Then when we discover ourselves we can determine where we are going. Who was I before I was born? This concept applies to our martial arts as well. When playing with the classical movements try to imagine that you could somehow travel back to the time and become the person that developed the routine. What were they thinking? What were they feeling? What were their influences and inspirations to create the routine? Why these specific movements and why in this particular order? Think past the obvious questions of, how do I do it and what are the applications?

A good teacher will set a template for the student using the classical techniques. When the student has built a solid foundation then they can learn how to make the material their art, how to adapt and interpret it, but the classical foundation must remain.