Praying Mantis Vs Wing Chun

[Rolling_Hand]

As a praying mantis practioner, do you know how to fight with A WING CHUN FIGHTER?

[EARTH DRAGON]

attack the side and back doors while using angular or circular deceptive footwork and never attack them from the front.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[aw.axis]

Some moves work very well against Wing Chun, such as whipping fists and fast round house punches. Slip palm/finger strikes are Ok too. Low kicks work well, especially groin snap kicks, kicks to the knee, these are great when you combine them the hand strikes above.

There are some moves that dont work against an experenced WC guy these are, double intercepts (they are quick to step in and punch over the top) and airborne or roundhouse kicks (they are well used to stopping these).

WC is excellent in a straight line towards you and you have to be quick to get around them. I also find the seven star step and sweeping the WC shuffle towards you(ie catch the front leg with a quick circular sweep of your front foot ) can catch them off guard.

I have been lucky in that a school I train and teach at teaches both 7 star and WC so I get to train against good WC guys. Its a direct and effective style to fight against, but you can get around it just dont try and take them on at close quarters as thats where the Wing Chun style is frighteningly effective.

I hope these comments help.

[Rolling_Hand]

Earth Dragon,

--attack the side

Then you would have given up your own space. Is this a good idea to fight against wing chun? - RH

AL,

--whipping fists and fast round house punches

Efficiency is the dominant idea in wing chun combat. Then, how could whipping fists and the round house punches against the wing chun centerline punches??? - RH

[aw.axis]

I use the whipping fists typically after catching an incoming left with my left then dragging the WC guy off his centre line and send the right and whipping fist in hard and fast (step in with the right foot as you do so)the move is from 7* whirlwind boxing . The roundhouse punch tends to follow a swift low kick, I send the roundhouse punch straight to begin with then hook it at the last moment into the temple area. I accept the point that if you go too wide with these move your much slower and will get a smack in the mouth for your efforts. These work for me, smaller and lighter mantis guys may be better using Earth Dragons footwork to get around the problem but either way its a great style to spar against.

[Rolling_Hand]

--catching an incoming left with my left then...

How and what techniques do you apply??
Strange to say, there's a problem go against wing chun. Its like too many holes on the swiss cheese.

[EARTH DRAGON]

not sure what you mean by my own space?
WC is a straight forward lineare stlye, attacking the side and back doors works rather well against such styles. when they defend or attack they usually leave themselves open to circular steps away from the centerline.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Rolling_Hand]

--Your own space

This is the area where you need to protect in combat, in other words, the wing chun gates. - RH

[EARTH DRAGON]

our systm of praying mantis creates space. i,e attacking left to open the right and so on, so it doesnt matter whos space it is for you can create and opening by reversing the way of the tao

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Waidan]

Rolling Hand --

You've mentioned "giving up your own space" in a couple different WC conversations. Are you confusing flanking with retreating? Or is there a larger stratigem at work there that I'm unaware of?

I study bagua, and we never "hold our ground". We don't retreat from an attack, but rather we move to the side or rear gates and stick very close to our opponent. Does that conflict with what you view to be proper fighting doctrine?

Thanks

[Scarletmantis]

Wing Chun has very limited footwork. That's probably the most exploitable weakness in the system, therefore, attack the legs vigorously and often. Many WC guys will scoff and tell you that they'll just apply a stop-kick but we mantids know better.
A low kick is extremely fast and powerful. It requires superb timing, superior speed, incredible balance, a sixth sense (you need to know that your opponent is going to kick low at least a second before he does), and lots of luck to successfully counter a low kick. If you've done any real fighting, or even some casual point sparring, you know that these elements rarely come together.

1.Use Shao Twei to cut his ankles and achilles tendons
2. Roundhouse kicks to the inside and outside of his knees and thighs
3. front heel kicks to his shins and kneecaps
4. Sidekicks to his ankles and knees
5. stomp his toes into the ground

It's much easier to perform an action than it is to react to that action. Be aggressive. Bring the fight to him and attack him from the side and rear as others have suggested. You will dominate your opponent. :D

"Master, here is a stick. Please beat me for my insolence." - KC Elbows

[Rolling_Hand]

--Are you confusing flanking with retreating?

Not in my book! - RH

--move to the side

Why did you run away if you know how to deal with your opponent? - RH

[Waidan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rolling_Hand:
--Are you confusing flanking with retreating?

Not in my book! - RH

--move to the side

Why did you run away if you know how to deal with your opponent? - RH[/quote]

I'm not sure I get the "Not in my book" line.

Who's running away? Why would I play into a WC fighter's strength by standing in front of him when I can step to his side/rear and maximize my own attack?

Or perhaps this is a really half-arsed troll thread. Who's to say?

[Rolling_Hand]

--Who's running away?
--step to his side...
--half-arsed troll thread

Rethink the tactic...
Focus on the role you have to play and not on personal feelings. --RH

[Scarletmantis]

I'm confused too Rolling, could you please explain what you meant by "giving up your own space"? I am interested in the tactics you would use personally. ;)

Also, how do you think you might attack a mantis fighter? Are you familiar with our system? What weaknesses might you attempt to exploit?

"Master, here is a stick. Please beat me for my insolence." - KC Elbows

[Rolling_Hand]

--in the tactics you would use personally

Wing Chun gates is like a full cup of tea, no more can be added to it in term of space. From a technical standpoint, all movement has to be efficient use of the 6 gates of offense and defense universal to human combat. - RH

[cha kuen]

Many WC guys don't know how to FREE fight. I mean non sticking at medium range. Use fakes etc. Basically fight him like a boxer...a mantis boxer.

[Rolling_Hand]

Please tell me more... how would you go aganist wing chun boxing??

[Phil Redmond]

ScarletMantis,
You say that Wing Chun has no footwork. Generalization can compromise your fighting strategy. My ex-wife taught me Chat Sing Tong Long. I studied Juk Lum Tong Long. There is a Tai Gik Tong Long, and at least a couple more Tong Long styles/versions. All with some different fighting strategies. Does your Tong Long have 3 step arrow? See where I'm going? You weren't completely wrong. There are some Wing Chun styles that have limited footwook. It would benefit you to look into it more.
Peace,
PR


PRedmond

[Scarletmantis]

P Redmond,

I didn't say that Wing Chun has no footwork, I said it had limited footwork. The Wing Chun fighters I have squared off with wern't very mobile in comparison with the systems I have studied. I stand by my advice and opinion because they have been born out in actual combat.

Rolling,

Your explanation is obtuse. I was hoping for detail, and got a fortune cookie quote instead. :confused: I'm still interested in any waeknesses you may see with NPM.

"Master, here is a stick. Please beat me for my insolence." - KC Elbows

[Phil Redmond]

ScarletMantis,
I stand corrected. You did say limited footwork. I agree. But I am a TWC practioner. We have footwork unlike the other WC styles. And I have used it in actual combat on a number of occasions.
PRedmond
www.wingchunkwoon.com (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com)

[Waidan]

RH-

My answer/querry has nothing to do with personal feelings. I'm honestly curious as to exactly what you are proposing (in reference to "not giving up your own space")...however your fortune-cookie responses are disappointing, and lead me to believe you're just having some fun rather than searching for actual answers.

Do it, dude. Bust out a paragraph of plain English and express why it is so important to maintain your ground when fighting.

[Tainan Mantis]

I'll post my thoughts and questions on the WC board to get a WC response,

[Rolling_Hand]

--obtuse/detail

That's the WCK asking-hand. You do require to take wing chun 101 to understand this intricate system. At this moment, it's better to go along with the general drift and avoid specifics. Though progress will be slow but you'll reach clarity.

[Rolling_Hand]

--Why it is so important to maintain your ground when fighting?

It maybe strange to say, " Where's your balance? " - RH

[OdderMensch]

who has "thouched hands" with Mantis people. As one of the mantis guys came over to our forum, I tought to return the favor. Cross system communiction is what this place is all about after all.

Scarlet Mantis Most of the low kicks you descibe we do train to deal with. Its not "easy" by a longshot, and it involves getting VERY close to your opponent.

Playing with the Mantis people at my school has really helped to sharpen my footwork skills (limited as they may be) to the point where I feel fairly mobile.

I was going to give you all some tips for fighting against WC but then I realized how incredibly dumb that would be :D so you all lose :P

whew I almost told you all about our secret techniques :rolleyes:

[Rolling_Hand]

--secret techniques

What are they?

[rogue]

A kick that I've just started trying and find works pretty well against the WC guys I get to play with is a mid level wheel kick (aka spinning heel kick) applied from their 2-3- or 9-10 o'clock positions. The hard part is hitting the angle and executing it before they pivot and catch the leg, but even then sometimes the "weight" of the kick knocks them back.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society. (We are not affiliated with Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Jujitsu Kempo Karate Concepts, or Wan King Fist Kung Fu)

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban

[I]
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum

[Rolling_Hand]

--works pretty well against the WC guys...

Fearful when the sky was full of thunder, the painted ponies go up and down.
Are you exploiting a rivalry in order to win someone over to your side? - RH

[Scarletmantis]

Oddermensch,

Yes, I expect that a WC fighter will be trying to get in "VERY close", your system emphasizes infighting tactics. This is precisly why I have used long range kicks to my opponent's legs when I have faced WC stylists.
Personally, I feel most comfortable fighting in the infighting to grappling range, but why would I close to YOUR comfort zone unless it was on my terms? :D

Rogue,

What areas do you target with that wheel kick, and under what circumstances would you apply that tactic? Thanks in advance!

Rolling,

Wise man say; "Why bother speaking if you have nothing to say?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

"Master, here is a stick. Please beat me for my insolence." - KC Elbows

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen has extensive footworks within all it's forms including Siu Lin Tao. Siu Baat Kua "Little Octqagon" form shows highly advanced evassive footworks and circular hands exclusive to Fut Sao Wing Chun. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com) Check out James Cama's site.

[rogue]

Scarletmantis,
I've just started playing with it and I've only used it against one sparring partner who does WC and some fellow TKD practitioners. Targeting is to the stomach or solar plexus since I'm trying to slip it between his hands and legs to avoid getting leg checked or trapped. It's worked better when he's moving in but when I still had time to move off line. Right now I believe that I've pulled this off due to my friend being unfamiliar with the technique and being caught by surprise.

Some things that I have noticed about the technique are the heel is that even a partially commited hit with the heel to the stomach is effective, which also makes it hard to practice unless your partner is wearing a chest protector. Also since you are hitting with the meaty part of the leg and not the shin checks don't hurt as much.
Bad things are you have to commit fully to the kick which doesn't leave any room for messing up. Also it has lots of moving parts, since to kick with my left leg I have to pivot to my left, make sure I'm outside far enough, plant and then pivot on the right foot and deliver the kick. It takes less than a second but so does rushing in and getting shoved.
It's a fun one to play with but personally I'd hesitate to use it for real, maybe a better kicker than myself could pull it off on a consistant basis.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society. (We are not affiliated with Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Jujitsu Kempo Karate Concepts, or Wan King Fist Kung Fu)

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban

[I]
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum

[Rolling_Hand]

--Wise man say: " Why bother speaking if you have nothing to say? "

Have you ever heard of fighting without fighting?
In other words, know yourself don't show yourself. -RH