beginning where you end

[uki]

how many people are conscious of where they begin and end a form during practice?? do you end up where you started or do you start in one place, only to end somewhere else?? how much emphasis do you place on this concept when practicing?? :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

how many people are conscious of where they begin and end a form during practice?? do you end up where you started or do you start in one place, only to end somewhere else?? how much emphasis do you place on this concept when practicing?? :)

Some forms end where they begin, others do not.
If your forms SHOULD end where it begins and you are way off then your stances are not symetrcial and neither are your movements.
If the form is NOT suppose to end where it starts then **** it.

[B-Rad]

Yeah, it's pretty simple. If I do a complete form and it's been designed to end where I started, and I don't end up there (assuming I haven't intentionally changed anything) then I've screwed up somehow. Otherwise, it's pretty unimportant.

[David Jamieson]

all the shaolin forms i know, weapons included start and end in the same spot.

over time you correct yourself and check yourself.

that's how it goes.

not all systems develop their sets like this though. in my experience, it's a shaolin thing to do this.

[kfson]

I like the idea of your concept starting and ending at the same place.

In Xing Yi it is easy to do this. In Chen and Yang Taiji, it is not as easy or diagramatically possible.

Bagua?

[uki]

I like the idea of your concept starting and ending at the same place.it's a rather common principle of nature. :)


In Xing Yi it is easy to do this.imagine that... LOL

In Chen and Yang Taiji, it is not as easy or diagramatically possible.anything is possible.


Bagua?of course, why not?? in relation to the fixed position of the center, one can start and end at any of the cardinal compass directions.

in my experience, it's a shaolin thing to do this.i wonder why that is... hmmmm... seriously, i was watching some videos of shaolin "monks" and i noticed a great many of them do not end where they start, but then again, i must be missing something that is more important than this. :p

[kfson]

If one starts and ends at the same location, should ones forms visit all the cardinal and sub cardinal directions. Each of these directions have a particular meaning that should be visited, no?

[Lucas]

my forms begin and end in the same place. likewise they movement is linear. you can actually, if you had the stuff to do it, elevate a platform a few feet wide and many feet long (all depends on your stance size, ie: depth + legs length) and do your form on that without falling off. thats the idea anyway. my staff and swords end in the same place they begin also.

[Lucas]

not all systems develop their sets like this though. in my experience, it's a shaolin thing to do this.

i know that the southern fist i learned was pretty different it went all over the place like a crazy wild animal and ended in a different spot facing a different direction.

[uki]

If one starts and ends at the same location, should ones forms visit all the cardinal and sub cardinal directions. Each of these directions have a particular meaning that should be visited, no?why yes of course... i like using 8 cardinal directions aswell as the 8 positions of attack. ones straight ahead view is like north a direct rear attack would be from the south, flanking attacks from the southeast and southwest, side attacks from the east and west, and front attacks from northeast, north and northwest. 8 fixed positions while practicing form allows for training movements to evade and attack 8 positions while maintaining consciuosness of 8 cardinal directions and attacks... then there are 8 vertical directions to throw a fist - you can aslo visualize a clock for this, which gives you 12 points instead of 8. then take into account the 8 cardinal directions in relation to a 3dimensional sphere around you and the orbital paths between two points... i find being conscious of this allows to better train against multiple opponents. this is why it is done. by training to fight multiple opponents, you will naturally excel at fighting one. :)

[David Jamieson]

why yes of course... i like using 8 cardinal directions aswell as the 8 positions of attack. ones straight ahead view is like north a direct rear attack would be from the south, flanking attacks from the southeast and southwest, side attacks from the east and west, and front attacks from northeast, north and northwest. 8 fixed positions while practicing form allows for training movements to evade and attack 8 positions while maintaining consciuosness of 8 cardinal directions and attacks... then there are 8 vertical directions to throw a fist - you can aslo visualize a clock for this, which gives you 12 points instead of 8. then take into account the 8 cardinal directions in relation to a 3dimensional sphere around you and the orbital paths between two points... i find being conscious of this allows to better train against multiple opponents. this is why it is done. by training to fight multiple opponents, you will naturally excel at fighting one. :)

There are only 4 cardinal directions uki.

so back up a bit and start again. :)

[uki]

There are only 4 cardinal directions uki.

so back up a bit and start again.ummm... there are 8 if you are counting the directions of the trigrams in bagua, which form the embryonic base of the 64 manifestations of the i-ching. :p

[kfson]

why yes of course... i like using 8 cardinal directions aswell as the 8 positions of attack. ones straight ahead view is like north a direct rear attack would be from the south, flanking attacks from the southeast and southwest, side attacks from the east and west, and front attacks from northeast, north and northwest. 8 fixed positions while practicing form allows for training movements to evade and attack 8 positions while maintaining consciuosness of 8 cardinal directions and attacks... then there are 8 vertical directions to throw a fist - you can aslo visualize a clock for this, which gives you 12 points instead of 8. then take into account the 8 cardinal directions in relation to a 3dimensional sphere around you and the orbital paths between two points... i find being conscious of this allows to better train against multiple opponents. this is why it is done. by training to fight multiple opponents, you will naturally excel at fighting one. :)

I should start Bagua, asap.

[uki]

I should start Bagua, asap.just don't walk into a wall. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

just don't walk into a wall. :p

If he's walking the circle he should be fine!:D

[No_Know]

If one is better versed in the Eight trigrams of the Bagua or of Bagua/Pa Kua, then That one would understand the eight of the eight is four cardinal (North, South, East, West) and four Ordinal (Southeast, Southwest Northeast, Northwest) such as the trigrams of the Korean flg having trigrams in the corners being the ordinal directions of Southeast, Southwest, Northeast, Northwest. (Nope-South Korean flag trigrams more represents South, North, West, East--Heaven, Earth, Water, Fire- No_Know).

Uki, as I understandit-ish, while the eight of the sixty-four are embryonic as the two of Yin-Yang are embryonic of the eight of the bagua, this eight embryonic is other than of direction. At least direction as in I'm lost can you tell me how to get to _______ Street, right-at/left-at... and North-of/South of...

One called Uki, however you are addressing things, I will outline my talk. I speak of C o m p a s s directions such as are found on a compass or a map. There are four main directions of a compass or a map these are at least sometimes referred to as Cardinal directions--they divide an area into two Sets of halves--as where the Greenich Mean Time (line)meetes the Equator or the International Date Line meets the Equator of Earth the planet wher we are-ish.

the sets of halves form boxes, if you will- called quadrants. The quadrants are dicided evenly as per angle--ninety degrees (the intersection like a four-way stop in suburbia ir mainstreet big city), halved or so-to-speak (shake-a-can) cut in two (evenly) is forty-five degrees. This line is counted as a direction, but the forty-five degree lines bisecting the ... cutting the box in two even parts or slices Like a pie or cake or pizza-ish, are called O r d i n a l.

Not so much direction is the embryonic eight to the sixty four of the I-Ching, but combinations.

If you care to further see directions from four- relating to four corners of the World or four elements Earth, Wind(or Air), Water, Fire (near originally My Comprehend), the eight Directions on the ground as the eight directional stepping of Jigotai Ninja Sword cutting (start with an iron pole), then look up what sailors have done of Box-a-compass. But even that is only half of sixty four at best. No one reportedly went to the effort of sixty four directions. But if you understand the trigrams sufficiently you might grasp sixty-four directions but you'd perhaps be stepping Hsing-Yi.

No_Know

[No_Know]

Uki, if you are accentuating eight directions. Then your mentions are reasonble. It is a philosophy or strategy sort-of-thing I might think; forms have their focuses. There are more focuses than eight directions principle or eight direction philosophy. One might say eight direction strategy is merely applied four direction strategy. Because the four directions done twice can get you the eight directions.

Awareness is Great! and all the thinkings you brought-up can help with that. The eight (heretoafter mentioned in this post as bagua)is eight steppings. Punching bagua in eight steppings. Kicking bagua in eight steppings. Punching bagua in the standing bagua of the stepping bagua--punch bagua to the front to the right front to the left front to the left to the right to the rear/back to the back left to the back right this is the horizontal bagua. Punch bagua to the standing bagua (vertical) of front, overhead, front-up, rear-up, rear, rear-down, front-down and substitute the down punching with stomping (four per left; four per right).

Note for balance these should be done with left arm and then with right arm also though the start-arm may be either. Since both feet are down, down bagua perhaps should be done with the right foot then the left foot (the start foot may be either. And if you truely care for balance going this way, then each gua is a beginnig to the exercise and the exercise should be done in All combinations with each gua of nearly each bagua as start.

This sort-of-thing is basics in Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung -Fu Squirrel--what started out as three mirrors became Forty-five Mirrors, became Squirrel's Ninety Mirrors--palm-up, three wrists, five levels, three positions--forty-five one hand palm-up. Then that hand does the exercise from palm-down getting one ninety mirrors....Now the other arm does ninety mirrors also. This is with elbows down and in and that became... 180 Mirrors. I llater surmised this could be done straight arm. I had started figuring it out...eight (horizontal directions of the straight arm) times Palm-up-three foldings-- three, at five levels-- 120 mirrors. Now do this palm-down it becomes Squirrels 240 mirrors. Add the other arm...Squirrel's 480 Mirrors plus the original 180 Mirrors...660 Mirrors. I might have thought it would have turned out 640but it is what ever it is regardless of my prefferences...3

Fifteen, other side palm equals thirty. Thirty in eight positions is 240 (three times eight...). 240 on two halves is 480...

The Daoists/Taoists seemed to have some numbers thing or there seems to be a numbersthing in Kung-Fu from somewhere in the Chinese Culture...Ahhhhh. I do three sets of thirty. Had I done two sets of thirty there would be sixty and sixty equaling 120. 480 plus 120...600. If I did 120 Mirrors and 120 Mirrors (which is have F o u r positions instead of the three I have had)...240 plus 480 equals 720 which would comply with the numbers play as I comprehend it in Kung-Fu of Older days.

No_Know

Thinking of howmany I end-up with helps be get a more balanced exercise thinking of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 12, 18, 27,... 64...; multiples of. Therefore Two and Three.

I had been considering adding a position or two or so to Squirrels Ninety mirrors...Squirrel's 180 Mirrors. Very Good.

No_Know

bagua punching returns to center. bagua stepping returns to Center. bagua goes forth from a single point that is the Yin in Yang and Yang in Yin and Yin in Yang in Yin and Yang in Yin in Yang...that is the stillness. Stillness is the end and beginning of movement. A change in movement is a stopping of one direction and reissue-ing including accelleration. Bagua fighting or movement seems to infere or at least incorporate a center or Stillness (not one of the kuas Actually Stillness Is one of the Quas it seems to possibly be Left front I regard that as a left-front stance (catish with a guard. Protecting the lesser used leftwith guarding dragon and an inviting opening tof the Tiger right from which to Phoenix forward. With your Turtle back in Heaven. Breathing coiled centrally, snake...the feng Shuai animals relating to front, back left right and center.

Da Mo (No_Know)

And the South Korean flag has Heaven, Earth, Fire, Water--South North West and East. in its corners- My Think.

[No_Know]

Once I thought, end where the form statrs I went Big with getting that result. I could refine my techniques in the form to get that plus there is that concious awareness going on.

No_Know

I think some forms do not focus on eight directions an if they end differently of course do that. But in the same light if the form Should end where it began...Be appropriate to the form one performs perhaps.

No_Know

[uki]

it's still much easier to say there are 8 directions... 8 is just that all round special number for infinity... lay down the 8 and you have an endless path to walk in(two circles)... i had to figure all this out on my own you know. :p

[kfson]

Ordinal... that's the word.;)

[David Jamieson]

well to be fair, we are on a sphere.

In truth, all directions are merely "away" from where you are now. lol

If not for spinning on an axis, we wouldn't even have a reference point for directions!

But cardinal is cardinal, ordinal is ordinal and if we're going to use english language, then so be it right? :p

You can use inter-cardinal as well. :)

[No_Know]

Wow you're doing well so far, uki. Congratulations.

Convenience like calling the infinity symbol an eight on its side.

Perhaps Infinity ate and died and ended-up on its sideb ut it's infinity so it's death was a rebirth and more death but then rebirth.

Infinity is forever, but not necessarily all Time as infinity began...

Draw the symbol for Infinity without beginning to draw, merely draw it not in stages as writing, but the symbol in its entirety...

Infinity represents forever but after a point~The before or beginninge of Infinity has not been yet so boxedly put.

No_Know

[Scott R. Brown]

well to be fair, we are on a sphere.

Yeah....I tried that "we are on a sphere" thing once here on the BB and some wise guy just HAD to point out that, to be accurate, we are on an "oblate spheroid"!

So there.....now its my turn to be the wise guy!!:p

[Scott R. Brown]

Wow you're doing well so far, uki. Congratulations.

Convenience like calling the infinity symbol an eight on its side.

Perhaps Infinity ate and died and ended-up on its sideb ut it's infinity so it's death was a rebirth and more death but then rebirth.

Infinity is forever, but not necessarily all Time as infinity began...

Draw the symbol for Infinity without beginning to draw, merely draw it not in stages as writing, but the symbol in its entirety...

Infinity represents forever but after a point~The before or beginninge of Infinity has not been yet so boxedly put.

No_Know

Is infinity forever?

Or is it outside of time?

For if it is truly infinite it would have be infinite both forwards and backwards in relation to time.

If all is NOW, as is taught by mystics, time is an illusion and our experience of time is then determined by where or how our consciousness interacts with infinity.

[uki]

But cardinal is cardinal, ordinal is ordinal and if we're going to use english language, then so be it right?ordinal is being used entirely out of context here... 8 is much more appropriate than 4.


You can use inter-cardinal as well.subjective to relative and perceptional position. :)

[uki]

Is infinity forever?

Or is it outside of time?

For if it is truly infinite it would have be infinite both forwards and backwards in relation to time.

If all is NOW, as is taught by mystics, time is an illusion and our experience of time is then determined by where or how our consciousness interacts with infinity.infinity is like piece of driftwood in the sea of eternity. :D

[David Jamieson]

uki, why do you use words if you don't understand what they mean? lol

seriously man... :p You sound like one of those broken minded weirdos on youtube talkin bout the universe...

[uki]

seriously man... You sound like one of those broken minded weirdos on youtube talkin bout the universe...funny you mention that... i have been toying with the thought... LOL... perhaps i shall call it "life according to uki" channel. :p

[Scott R. Brown]

uki, why do you use words if you don't understand what they mean? lol

seriously man... :p You sound like one of those broken minded weirdos on youtube talkin bout the universe...

He clearly knows what they mean, they just don't mean the same thing to him that they mean to most everybody else!:);)

[Lucas]

funny you mention that... i have been toying with the thought... LOL... perhaps i shall call it "life according to uki" channel. :p

i'd watch your tv/youtube channel.

[kfson]

i'd watch your tv/youtube channel.

Would it be in English or ukish?

[uki]

Would it be in English or ukish?spoken word from a nearly deaf person, with accents. :D

[kfson]

spoken word from a nearly deaf person, with accents. :D

Ukish it is!

[No_Know]

"Is infinity forever? " -Scott R. Brown

(K)No(w). Because things might not last that long. It is used to represent the idea of long lasting and plays with "unchanging." - No_Know


"Or is it outside of time?" - Scott R. Brown

(K)No(w). Infinity is a measure word under the topic or in the category of the device called Time. - No_Know

"For if it is truly infinite it would have be infinite both forwards and backwards in relation to time." -Scott R. Brown

(K)No(w). While all things might be, they are only when they are. A whatever that is infinite can not begin before that with which it is associated...meeting someone and being in Love and being in Love forever (Fore-ever--from the moment onward, unending, for Infinity))does not extend back before it occurred. Infinity represents not along a line, but along a ray, which begins at That moment. -No_Know

"If all is NOW, as is taught by mystics, time is an illusion and our experience of time is then determined by where or how our consciousness interacts with infinity."-Scott R. Brown

O.K.-Very Good. Enjoying your task or dreading your task, the measure of moments is the same by all constructed devices outside of the Human Being (even inside (an internal clock--clock a created device for measuring the device of measuring Moments or Nows--Time) - No_Know

Minutes can seem as hours. Hours can seem as minutes. Weeks like days and where have the years gone. Yes, there is measuring, but there is perception.

Actual is actual regardless of Want or Wish.

No_Know

[kfson]

Yes, there is measuring, but there is perception.

Actual is actual regardless of Want or Wish.

No_Know

What is perception?

What is the actual and non actual?

[No_Know]

Perception--result of how one's brain processes data received and interprets it as Understanding.

Actual is an answer/response to a specific question (asked or not asked) that addresses that specific question absolutely.

Not actual is an answer/response intended/designed or believed to be as a truth or falsehood, which answers some Perception, but not absolutely the specific question posed.

No_Know

I responded actual and not actual based on a perception that you were asking for my definition of those words/concepts to eventually, through probing questinging, trip me-up or shut me-up, quiet me or gather proof to be used against my point(s).

However the actual was you posed what is The actual and non actual. By using the "the" my initial response posted above was other than appropriate to the actual.

"The actual" varies and yet is constant--the formula is constant-the inputs can be varied; however, "the actual" consists of factors.

A direct quote might seem to be an actual. While the words have definitions in Standard. They have context when used in combinations. And they have depth given the history and emotional vestments and interand intra relations of those involved....

The phrase, "I was there."one level was there a physical presence of me at that location? Another level or all the same level merely factors perhaps involved or related to the actual...I am answering, "I was there," likely based on being asked If I was there ("*were you there*." If asked by a lawyer it was not necessarily an Actual question but a piece of framework or fishing to find or corrupt my position in the perception of those witnessing the interchange of me supposedly being asked and my answering/responding.

Was I there? might have been based on someone thinking I was somewhere.

Person or persons thought truthfully that I was at a particular place or understood I was not at a particular place-and in falsehood said I was there--usual designs might be they thought I was there but the data processing in their head produced a false result making them Wrong that I was there, or me being there was a Non-Actual, yetthey honestly claim to witness me as being there absolute truth as they understand it or actually being there which is not absolutely true.

It matters where in the there I was. Was I at the restaurant was what was in the questioners mind, But all anyone heard was were you there. I f I say yes the questioner get to fill-in the Truths as the questioner would like those witnessing to perceive. Truths are facts or perceived as facts. But said as such individually or fact then fact then fact...witnesses to this presentation mightconnect the facts. they will have results with each connection. There can be space between point as ther is space between stars. But drawing conclusive lines from each individual's perspective might not include factors. And since results are made with each connection, any factor not included makes for an unsound result or a result that might be reasonable, yet is not or non-actual.

Was I there Yes? Ah so I saw the robery? Non-actual and unsound relt or conclusive connection. There does not mean observan of all. My head is designed to seeat best 180 of 360 degrees. Timing could help I go there often, So, was I there Was I ther when and why...There was a robbery and did I see it. Noth that at am~ necessarily conciously aware.

I might have seen the counter person and a nother person at the counter I saw the robery. Hower, I did not necessarily hacve the connections to understand that it was a robbery. so honestly I did not see a robbery and I was not there.

No_Know

[No_Know]

When people talk with you or to you they might have an agenda. What they put forth fist might not be the actual (concern or interest).

How am I doing? is not the actual Person wants me to submit my report early so they can get a look at it an submit one more-up-to-date and with less or different errors than mine might have Blah Blah Blah.

Things were. I might say thinkgs are but by the time~ I say it they will have existed at the time I thought to speak (tell) and might no longer exist. So, (needle-and-thread)I am muchly talking passed events, but speaking as if they are current--that's seemsto be the trend. Squirrel Think

We say sunset or sun-rise (however you know to write it...).
These would be ukis non-actuals. The sun relatively stays in the same position relating to the Earth. This planet revolves/rotates about an axis to get so-called Day and night and rotates/revolves around~ the sun to get seasons.

Sunrise is more actually planetary rotation towards...

Sunset is more actually planetary rotation away-from.

If you care to be actual Have a good Main Solar Exposure.

And the United States of America is Actually the United States of Central North America.

No_Know

[kfson]

I responded actual and not actual based on a perception that you were asking for my definition of those words/concepts to eventually, through probing questinging, trip me-up or shut me-up, quiet me or gather proof to be used against my point(s).

No_Know

Why then are you trippable? Could you say that you have painted a picture of your world with your response? The path is clear, flat and open.

[kfson]

And the United States of America is Actually the United States of Central North America.

No_Know

Is it, or is it in your world(?)... not that there is anything wrong with your world.

Is the absolute response within the constraints (brackets) of one's mind?

[Scott R. Brown]

I responded actual and not actual based on a perception that you were asking for my definition of those words/concepts to eventually, through probing questinging, trip me-up or shut me-up, quiet me or gather proof to be used against my point(s).

Hi No_Know,

If you write/communicate according to what you truly/actually understand/perceive and you are not just speculating or blindly repeating what you have heard others have said/teach then you cannot be tripped up!

The only problems that may arise then are:

1) your own inability to communicate effectively what you are trying to say, which will improve with practice,

2) the other person does not have the foundation of knowledge necessary to understand what you are saying,

3) the other person defines their life according to foundational principles that do not include the possibility of your own foundational principles,

4) you are wrong!

[David Jamieson]

Do you begin where you end or do you end where you begin?

These are also questions.

[Scott R. Brown]

Do you begin where you end or do you end where you begin?

These are also questions.

A circle has no beginning or end!

[No_Know]

02-03-2010 09:15 PM
David Jamieson Do you begin where you end or do you end where you begin?

These are also questions.
\

I begin where I begin. I strive to end where I bagan. (Forms)

No_Know

02-03-2010 07:58 PM
kfson Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Know
And the United States of America is Actually the United States of Central North America.

No_Know

Is it, or is it in your world(?)... not that there is anything wrong with your world.

Is the absolute response within the constraints (brackets) of one's mind?

\
Being aware of the absolute response might be within the constraints of one's mind...We are Limited by our imaginations has been said, per haps.

As for the United States of America by my Say actually being the United States of Central North America...The New world was claimed by the Spanish via Christopher Columbus who landed in the central part of the continent. the lands were named after an Italian Amerigo Vespucci And came to be Three parts all of them Americas. Central America, South America, And North America.

North America currently 0130HR Friday 05 February 2010~is made-up of three countries. From South to North they are the United States of Mexico, The United States of America, Canada. The United States of Mexico is a recent thing to me--within twenty years, but as it does exist there are at least two United States of America. But only one uses that exact phrasiology. And we had it first. And that is how people around the world seem to refer to us...The United States tends to be understood to be the middle country of North America.

However I might wonder how the peoples of the United States of Mexico feel about that or call their countryin full name.

kfson you seemed to in some way pose if it was perhaps in my mind, this absolute answer that the so-called United States of America was actually the United States of Central North America...It is a country of united states in the central portion of North America...

kfson, if still do feel or think that my mention is soley in my mind as opposed to recognizing what one might call actual...whichever whatever. It is merely (perhaps) my mention and however you care to think.

No_Know


02-03-2010 09:55 PM
Scott R. Brown Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jamieson
Do you begin where you end or do you end where you begin?

These are also questions.

A circle has no beginning or end!
/
However, drawing/making the circle does.

No_Know

Scott R. Brown, hi, 1 2 3 4...makes sense :-)

No_Know

[David Jamieson]

Do you bagel where you and or is it and a bagel.

salmon lox are better than stone.

especially when a bagel is in the mix.


mmmmm lox n' bagels!

[Ronin22]

02-03-2010 09:15 PM

A circle has no beginning or end!
/
However, drawing/making the circle does.

No_Know

Scott R. Brown, hi, 1 2 3 4...makes sense :-)

No_Know


Then it's not a circle it's a line...............

[uki]

Then it's not a circle it's a line....depending on your perspective of walking a circle, it would appear to be walking a line... imagine walking on the outer rim of a donut, from your perspective you would be walking in an endlessly straight line.

[Scott R. Brown]

02-03-2010 09:55 PM
Scott R. Brown Quote:
Originally Posted by David Jamieson
Do you begin where you end or do you end where you begin?

These are also questions.

A circle has no beginning or end!
/
However, drawing/making the circle does.

The Platonic archetype/idea of a "Circle" has no beginning or end though!

[uki]

The Platonic archetype/idea of a "Circle" has no beginning or end though!like a line stretching from two infinite points on an infinite plane. :D

[Scott R. Brown]

like a line stretching from two infinite points on an infinite plane. :D

Exactly...except according to euclidean geometry, point, line and plane do not actually exist from a logical sense because they cannot be demonstrated to exist using logic, meaning there are no logical arguments that can demonstrate them to exist. Also, according to geometry all a circle is an infinite number of tangential lines touching each other, or something close to that, it has been 35 years since i have had geometry.

[uki]

Exactly...except according to euclidean geometry, point, line and plane do not actually exist from a logical sense because they cannot be demonstrated to exist using logic, meaning there are no logical arguments that can demonstrate them to exist. Also, according to geometry all a circle is an infinite number of tangential lines touching each other, or something close to that, it has been 35 years since i have had geometry.360 degrees in a circle... 360 degrees in a four 90 degree cornered square and every other geometric shape... all shapes reduce to 9, which is the number of change, the wind... represented by the tiger... this year will be as fleeting as the wind and as powerful as a hurricane on steroids(extra-galactical supernovae light debris)

google ennead. :cool:

[Lucas]

this year will be as fleeting as the wind



ya its already february its crazy. im ready for the zombiepocolypse already....

[Scott R. Brown]

... this year will be as fleeting as the wind and as powerful as a hurricane on steroids(extra-galactical supernovae light debris)

I will observe with bated breath!:)


ya its already february its crazy. im ready for the zombiepocolypse already....

Remember.......go for the head....I recommend Borderlands' Dr. Ned's Zombie Island to hone your skills!:eek:

[No_Know]

Then it's not a circle it's a line...............

You say it's a line because it has a beginning acording to No_Know~ And classically a circle has been said to have no beginning and no end.

A Circle being a series of lines used to represent a particular form with virtually no edges. We can go with a circle being a line. A line which's end point is with no space between it and the beginning or start point.

But if you relate a circle with lines or a line you bring-in "points," which is the make-up of lines/a line. Now that you introduce points. Points in general do not pre-exist Existence. Points are made. Therefore, they at least have a beginning and essentially now we have that a circle is made-up of points. And as points have a beginning, you Ronin22 have just helped declare that a circle has a beginning/ circles have a beginning.

No_Know

Yesterday 08:44 PM
Scott R. Brown

...The Platonic archetype/idea of a "Circle" has no beginning or end though!
/

You say that But I have searched for that. Please post from a source stating Plato's "idea" of a circle found in Plato's words or Plato's works~. Considering that I have searched for this and have not yet found and you have Circle in quotes, you also do not know a circle as a Platonic archetype beleived by Plato to have no beginning and no end.

And perhaps the mere thought of the idea of a circle is evidence if it having a beginning. The beginning of it having been thought.

No_Know

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Beginnings and endings and beginnings and endings and !

Why talk about circles when you can talk about cycles?

Every breath is a birth and a death and life is the space in between.

Bagua is cyclical, not circular (It's Octo-phasic!) Yet another reason to like spirals...

Begin and then end and then begin again. Then "and then" again. That's as important as the beginning. As important as the ending. The process FROM beginning to ending... the "and then."

Do you "and then" where you begin? Do you end where you "and then"? :eek::D

[Scott R. Brown]

You say that But I have searched for that. Please post from a source stating Plato's "idea" of a circle found in Plato's words or Plato's works~. Considering that I have searched for this and have not yet found and you have Circle in quotes, you also do not know a circle as a Platonic archetype beleived by Plato to have no beginning and no end.

And perhaps the mere thought of the idea of a circle is evidence if it having a beginning. The beginning of it having been thought.

No_Know

Hi No_Know,

To my knowledge Plato did not speak about circles specifically, he spoke about archetypal IDEAS. That is, a circle is a circle because we have an IDEA of what constitutes a circle and this IDEA is what the physical circle is based upon. The physical manifestation of an object is merely a crude copy of its archetypal IDEA!

A circle that is drawn has a physical beginning and end, an archetypal circle is not drawn, it is an IDEA that is complete in and of itself. When we form the idea of CIRCLE it is complete as a circle from the start. It has no beginning or end.:)

[SIFU RON]

Its Tradional to begin and end forms in the same spot.

Good thread

[kfson]

Beginning and end are common in the circumference of the circle.
(Heraclitus, DK 103)


He also said:
The most beautiful universe is a heap piled up at random.
(Heraclitus, DK 124)
Which makes me think Heraclitus did not like circles.



http://www.vopus.org/es/images/articles/ouroboros.gif

"The Ouroboros or Uroborus[1] is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon swallowing its own tail and forming a circle.

The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end (compare Phoenix). It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting from the beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished. The ouroboros has been important in religious and mythological symbolism, but has also been frequently used in alchemical illustrations, where it symbolizes the circular nature of the alchemist's opus. It is also often associated with Gnosticism, and Hermeticism.

Carl Jung interpreted the Ouroboros as having an archetypal significance to the human psyche.[citation needed] The Jungian psychologist Erich Neumann writes of it as a representation of the pre-ego "dawn state", depicting the undifferentiated infancy experience of both mankind and the individual child.
Contents:

* 1 Historical representations
o 1.1 Antiquity
o 1.2 Middle Ages
o 1.3 Alchemy
o 1.4 Freemasonry
o 1.5 Kundalini Yoga
o 1.6 Theosophy
o 1.7 Non-western traditions
o 1.8 Modern

Plato described a self-eating, circular being as the first living thing in the universe—an immortal, perfectly constructed animal..."

[Ronin22]

Ultimately there is no line or circle so how can it have a beginning or end?

[uki]

Yet another reason to like spirals...

Begin and then end and then begin again. Then "and then" again. That's as important as the beginning. As important as the ending. The process FROM beginning to ending... the "and then."

Do you "and then" where you begin? Do you end where you "and then"? nice food for thought here... i too am a fan of the spiral, which from one perspective can look like circles when viewed on on a flat on a 2D surface... it is said that even gravity works in a spiraling motion, as do hurricanes, tornados, and whirlpools - as even though they are circular in nature, they are infact spiralling circles that move from place to place, except the whirlpool of course, which would have a fixed point below while the surface spin on the water moves around... wow, imagining it even in a more clear perspective, a whirlpool behaves very similar to the movements of fire, which also has a fixed source. :eek:

and i didn't even wake and bake yet... LOL

[Xiao3 Meng4]

nice food for thought here... i too am a fan of the spiral, which from one perspective can look like circles when viewed on on a flat on a 2D surface...

Here's a spiral for ya: imagine a vector which rotates on all three axes: simultaneously turning (like a hurricane,) spinning (like a bullet) and rotating (like a wheel.)

I've tried drawing that sucker. I wish I knew how to use Mathematica.

Not that this has much to do with anything beyond symbols, of course.

[kfson]

In Chen, energy is moved through the body in a spiral fashion. You can actually see the result in the way the body moves in a high level practitioner. The Chen people can show you point by point how the energy travels with each movement. This might be so in other styles as well.
The spine is where most people last develop the transmission in the West because we are so tight in the shoulders and waist.

[uki]

Here's a spiral for ya: imagine a vector which rotates on all three axes: simultaneously turning (like a hurricane,) spinning (like a bullet) and rotating (like a wheel.)go take a look at some asteroids that NASA has their eyes on, i believe eros is one that has three axis as you mention... remember, nature must manifest everything we can think of. :cool:


I've tried drawing that sucker. I wish I knew how to use Mathematica.again, do some asteroid research... great stuff when applied to martial arts.


Not that this has much to do with anything beyond symbols, of course.yet it is signs and symbols that rule the world. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

....it is signs and symbols that rule the world. :)

Symbolically speaking....that is!:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

go take a look at some asteroids that NASA has their eyes on, i believe eros is one that has three axis as you mention... remember, nature must manifest everything we can think of. :cool:
again, do some asteroid research... great stuff when applied to martial arts.


as good a place as any to look at inspiring geometry. Thanks, I'll check it out.

[uki]

great stuff when playing with form...